Comments on: Sucks to be a Mushroom: in which we read David Orr’s essay on poetic greatness until our hangover goes away http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/ the internet literature magazine blog of the future Wed, 23 May 2012 14:18:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Pilson Crowder http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-7820 Pilson Crowder Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:47:11 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-7820 Part of the problem with Greatness, is the necessity for any who aspire toward it to self-mythologize. Tao Lin probably aspires to Fame and Celebrity and maybe Greatness, but look how much prostitution he has to undertake on his way. And Lerner, a much better writer, still has to hustle, from having friends review his work to having his teacher nominate him for the National Book Award. Both poets have that necessary ingredient, Ambition, and Ego, and it's what kills me about the current scene. How many female poets did you list, as answer to Orr's piece? Zero. It's considered inappropriate if a woman poet hustles the way Lin and Lerner do. When they do it, we sit on our hands, forget to point out the nepotism and/or insane self promotion, and call it 'balls.' Part of the problem with Greatness, is the necessity for any who aspire toward it to self-mythologize. Tao Lin probably aspires to Fame and Celebrity and maybe Greatness, but look how much prostitution he has to undertake on his way. And Lerner, a much better writer, still has to hustle, from having friends review his work to having his teacher nominate him for the National Book Award. Both poets have that necessary ingredient, Ambition, and Ego, and it’s what kills me about the current scene. How many female poets did you list, as answer to Orr’s piece? Zero. It’s considered inappropriate if a woman poet hustles the way Lin and Lerner do. When they do it, we sit on our hands, forget to point out the nepotism and/or insane self promotion, and call it ‘balls.’

]]> By: Pilson Crowder http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-100963 Pilson Crowder Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:47:00 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-100963 Part of the problem with Greatness, is the necessity for any who aspire toward it to self-mythologize. Tao Lin probably aspires to Fame and Celebrity and maybe Greatness, but look how much prostitution he has to undertake on his way. And Lerner, a much better writer, still has to hustle, from having friends review his work to having his teacher nominate him for the National Book Award. Both poets have that necessary ingredient, Ambition, and Ego, and it's what kills me about the current scene. How many female poets did you list, as answer to Orr's piece? Zero. It's considered inappropriate if a woman poet hustles the way Lin and Lerner do. When they do it, we sit on our hands, forget to point out the nepotism and/or insane self promotion, and call it 'balls.' Part of the problem with Greatness, is the necessity for any who aspire toward it to self-mythologize. Tao Lin probably aspires to Fame and Celebrity and maybe Greatness, but look how much prostitution he has to undertake on his way. And Lerner, a much better writer, still has to hustle, from having friends review his work to having his teacher nominate him for the National Book Award. Both poets have that necessary ingredient, Ambition, and Ego, and it’s what kills me about the current scene. How many female poets did you list, as answer to Orr’s piece? Zero. It’s considered inappropriate if a woman poet hustles the way Lin and Lerner do. When they do it, we sit on our hands, forget to point out the nepotism and/or insane self promotion, and call it ‘balls.’

]]> By: Ana http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-7781 Ana Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:29:59 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-7781 Justin, this is an awesome response. I'm awaiting a book of critical essays by JT. There's been a little e-mail discussion going on among me and several friend-poets, and I think the consensus is that though Orr acknowledges that 'It may be starting to sound as if greatness isn’t all that great; that it’s simply another strategy for concealing predictable prejudices that poets should forswear on their path to becoming wise and tolerant 21st-century artists,' he still sounds like he's mocking the wise and the tolerant, and isn't offering any real alternative to the old tenets of greatness. Sure, one should strive to write really good shit, but when an old white dude starts talking to me about Ambition, I have a flashback to an alpha-male resume expert telling me I should be more Aggressive in my job search; in other words, I want to kick him in the shins and page Valerie Solanas, then offer him (and myself) an anti-ego pill. Think more about the poems you write than about the poet you are, Orr. Or? Justin, this is an awesome response. I’m awaiting a book of critical essays by JT. There’s been a little e-mail discussion going on among me and several friend-poets, and I think the consensus is that though Orr acknowledges that ‘It may be starting to sound as if greatness isn’t all that great; that it’s simply another strategy for concealing predictable prejudices that poets should forswear on their path to becoming wise and tolerant 21st-century artists,’ he still sounds like he’s mocking the wise and the tolerant, and isn’t offering any real alternative to the old tenets of greatness. Sure, one should strive to write really good shit, but when an old white dude starts talking to me about Ambition, I have a flashback to an alpha-male resume expert telling me I should be more Aggressive in my job search; in other words, I want to kick him in the shins and page Valerie Solanas, then offer him (and myself) an anti-ego pill. Think more about the poems you write than about the poet you are, Orr. Or?

]]> By: Ana http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-100962 Ana Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:29:00 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-100962 Justin, this is an awesome response. I'm awaiting a book of critical essays by JT. There's been a little e-mail discussion going on among me and several friend-poets, and I think the consensus is that though Orr acknowledges that 'It may be starting to sound as if greatness isn’t all that great; that it’s simply another strategy for concealing predictable prejudices that poets should forswear on their path to becoming wise and tolerant 21st-century artists,' he still sounds like he's mocking the wise and the tolerant, and isn't offering any real alternative to the old tenets of greatness. Sure, one should strive to write really good shit, but when an old white dude starts talking to me about Ambition, I have a flashback to an alpha-male resume expert telling me I should be more Aggressive in my job search; in other words, I want to kick him in the shins and page Valerie Solanas, then offer him (and myself) an anti-ego pill. Think more about the poems you write than about the poet you are, Orr. Or? Justin, this is an awesome response. I’m awaiting a book of critical essays by JT. There’s been a little e-mail discussion going on among me and several friend-poets, and I think the consensus is that though Orr acknowledges that ‘It may be starting to sound as if greatness isn’t all that great; that it’s simply another strategy for concealing predictable prejudices that poets should forswear on their path to becoming wise and tolerant 21st-century artists,’ he still sounds like he’s mocking the wise and the tolerant, and isn’t offering any real alternative to the old tenets of greatness. Sure, one should strive to write really good shit, but when an old white dude starts talking to me about Ambition, I have a flashback to an alpha-male resume expert telling me I should be more Aggressive in my job search; in other words, I want to kick him in the shins and page Valerie Solanas, then offer him (and myself) an anti-ego pill. Think more about the poems you write than about the poet you are, Orr. Or?

]]> By: André http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-7560 André Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:25:54 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-7560 I loved this. This was fantastic. More like this, yes, yes, yes. This from Orr especially resonated: "When we lose sight of greatness, we cease being hard on ourselves and on one another; we begin to think of real criticism as being “mean” rather than as evidence of poetry’s health; we stop assuming that poems should be interesting to other people and begin thinking of them as being obliged only to interest our friends — and finally, not even that." People descend into this far too often. And then make categorical statements about how all of art is meaningless, etc, etc, which I think kind of devalues the conversation if you aren't doing it sincerely or are just using it as a way of dodging reaction or criticism. Regarding Tao Lin and his weird stunts, I can see how they would add to the legend or whatever his "legacy" ends up becoming... and how he even embodies the current social climate-- but is greatness an embodiment of what is happening "now" or is it a yearning or expression of something else, a pulse unexpressed, which might take us forward? I don't have the answer to that. Obviously it could be both, and it's hard to comment on Tao specifically when we don't have a complete body of work... I just wonder if taking his stunts into consideration isn't the exact same thing as praising a foreign poet for their life more than their work. To me at least (and I haven't read anything significant of his yet-- yeah, I know) it seems like Tao's stunts and attitude are cynical and maybe even a little bit cheap (less than "great") but I don't know really, I can't talk about anything more than my perception of him as a man at this point. I loved this. This was fantastic. More like this, yes, yes, yes.

This from Orr especially resonated:

“When we lose sight of greatness, we cease being hard on ourselves and on one another; we begin to think of real criticism as being “mean” rather than as evidence of poetry’s health; we stop assuming that poems should be interesting to other people and begin thinking of them as being obliged only to interest our friends — and finally, not even that.”

People descend into this far too often. And then make categorical statements about how all of art is meaningless, etc, etc, which I think kind of devalues the conversation if you aren’t doing it sincerely or are just using it as a way of dodging reaction or criticism.

Regarding Tao Lin and his weird stunts, I can see how they would add to the legend or whatever his “legacy” ends up becoming… and how he even embodies the current social climate– but is greatness an embodiment of what is happening “now” or is it a yearning or expression of something else, a pulse unexpressed, which might take us forward? I don’t have the answer to that. Obviously it could be both, and it’s hard to comment on Tao specifically when we don’t have a complete body of work… I just wonder if taking his stunts into consideration isn’t the exact same thing as praising a foreign poet for their life more than their work.

To me at least (and I haven’t read anything significant of his yet– yeah, I know) it seems like Tao’s stunts and attitude are cynical and maybe even a little bit cheap (less than “great”) but I don’t know really, I can’t talk about anything more than my perception of him as a man at this point.

]]> By: André http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-100961 André Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:25:00 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-100961 I loved this. This was fantastic. More like this, yes, yes, yes. This from Orr especially resonated: "When we lose sight of greatness, we cease being hard on ourselves and on one another; we begin to think of real criticism as being “mean” rather than as evidence of poetry’s health; we stop assuming that poems should be interesting to other people and begin thinking of them as being obliged only to interest our friends — and finally, not even that." People descend into this far too often. And then make categorical statements about how all of art is meaningless, etc, etc, which I think kind of devalues the conversation if you aren't doing it sincerely or are just using it as a way of dodging reaction or criticism. Regarding Tao Lin and his weird stunts, I can see how they would add to the legend or whatever his "legacy" ends up becoming... and how he even embodies the current social climate-- but is greatness an embodiment of what is happening "now" or is it a yearning or expression of something else, a pulse unexpressed, which might take us forward? I don't have the answer to that. Obviously it could be both, and it's hard to comment on Tao specifically when we don't have a complete body of work... I just wonder if taking his stunts into consideration isn't the exact same thing as praising a foreign poet for their life more than their work. To me at least (and I haven't read anything significant of his yet-- yeah, I know) it seems like Tao's stunts and attitude are cynical and maybe even a little bit cheap (less than "great") but I don't know really, I can't talk about anything more than my perception of him as a man at this point. I loved this. This was fantastic. More like this, yes, yes, yes.

This from Orr especially resonated:

“When we lose sight of greatness, we cease being hard on ourselves and on one another; we begin to think of real criticism as being “mean” rather than as evidence of poetry’s health; we stop assuming that poems should be interesting to other people and begin thinking of them as being obliged only to interest our friends — and finally, not even that.”

People descend into this far too often. And then make categorical statements about how all of art is meaningless, etc, etc, which I think kind of devalues the conversation if you aren’t doing it sincerely or are just using it as a way of dodging reaction or criticism.

Regarding Tao Lin and his weird stunts, I can see how they would add to the legend or whatever his “legacy” ends up becoming… and how he even embodies the current social climate– but is greatness an embodiment of what is happening “now” or is it a yearning or expression of something else, a pulse unexpressed, which might take us forward? I don’t have the answer to that. Obviously it could be both, and it’s hard to comment on Tao specifically when we don’t have a complete body of work… I just wonder if taking his stunts into consideration isn’t the exact same thing as praising a foreign poet for their life more than their work.

To me at least (and I haven’t read anything significant of his yet– yeah, I know) it seems like Tao’s stunts and attitude are cynical and maybe even a little bit cheap (less than “great”) but I don’t know really, I can’t talk about anything more than my perception of him as a man at this point.

]]> By: old style http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-7553 old style Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:38:33 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-7553 high art? david orr? who are these people, man? high art? david orr? who are these people, man?

]]> By: old style http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-100960 old style Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:38:00 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-100960 high art? david orr? who are these people, man? high art? david orr? who are these people, man?

]]> By: Justin Taylor http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-7526 Justin Taylor Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:09:44 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-7526 keith n b- yeah, that was totally my mis-read. we are absolutely on the same page. thanks for sticking with me, man. roaring? i could see that being an amazing feeling. when none of my roommates are home (or i just think they're not but turn out later to be wrong--oops) I put music on as loud as i can and sing along to it as loud as i can, usually Magnolia Electric Co. because as far as I'm concerned most of Jason Molina's songs are basically prayers. It feels amazing. I always wonder what the lawyer downstairs thinks about it. keith n b- yeah, that was totally my mis-read. we are absolutely on the same page. thanks for sticking with me, man.

roaring? i could see that being an amazing feeling. when none of my roommates are home (or i just think they’re not but turn out later to be wrong–oops) I put music on as loud as i can and sing along to it as loud as i can, usually Magnolia Electric Co. because as far as I’m concerned most of Jason Molina’s songs are basically prayers. It feels amazing. I always wonder what the lawyer downstairs thinks about it.

]]> By: Justin Taylor http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/sucks-to-be-a-mushroom-in-which-we-read-david-orrs-essay-on-poetic-greatness-until-our-hangover-goes-away/comment-page-1/#comment-100959 Justin Taylor Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:09:00 +0000 http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4696#comment-100959 keith n b- yeah, that was totally my mis-read. we are absolutely on the same page. thanks for sticking with me, man. roaring? i could see that being an amazing feeling. when none of my roommates are home (or i just think they're not but turn out later to be wrong--oops) I put music on as loud as i can and sing along to it as loud as i can, usually Magnolia Electric Co. because as far as I'm concerned most of Jason Molina's songs are basically prayers. It feels amazing. I always wonder what the lawyer downstairs thinks about it. keith n b- yeah, that was totally my mis-read. we are absolutely on the same page. thanks for sticking with me, man.

roaring? i could see that being an amazing feeling. when none of my roommates are home (or i just think they’re not but turn out later to be wrong–oops) I put music on as loud as i can and sing along to it as loud as i can, usually Magnolia Electric Co. because as far as I’m concerned most of Jason Molina’s songs are basically prayers. It feels amazing. I always wonder what the lawyer downstairs thinks about it.

]]>