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Persisting to Be Published.
There are very prolific writers in this world. I’ve learned this because these writers seem to have a bottomless queue of writing they can submit–I’m talking arsenals of hundreds of stories or poems. I don’t mind that many writers will submit every seven days like clockwork. I’m generally excited to see what they’re going to send next and a week is usually enough time for my reading palate to be properly cleansed.
What I do mind is how oftentimes, a new submission from a writer is very similar in tone, subject matter, aesthetic, or form to a previous submission(s). I am fascinated by why a writer would send a story/other creative work that’s exactly like the story rejected a week earlier. To me, a rejection implies that something about a given submission isn’t working so probably, we’re looking for different, rather than more of the same.
I will never be that person who says you need to have a sacred, emotional bond with a magazine before you submit. As an editor, I would appreciate your reading a few issues of the magazine to get a sense of what we like, what we publish, who we are. As a human being I recognize you may not always do your full due diligence and I won’t get too riled up about it. Still. I am increasingly curious as to why writers treat magazines like conquests not because they love the magazine so much they want to be published there but because they see rejection as a challenge, or a gauntlet that has been thrown, and are, as such, inspired to respond to that challenge, exhaustively. (I have done this too. I apologize, editors.) I can’t tell you how many cover letters say things like, “I will crack this code,” or “I will break your defenses,” or “I will conquer you.” Really? How about you just send me something awesome and unexpected? How about you try to understand why we’re not clicking? Think about it, maybe, just a little.
Writers also say things like, “I don’t have much more left in my Writing folder” or “I’m running out of things to send you.” These are actual statements writers have made. Why would your sending me your writerly dregs, and telling me you are sending me your dregs, make me want to read your submission, let alone accept it? Why not wait until you have something new, something you feel in your bones is right for a magazine instead of throwing a bunch of words at a wall, hoping something will stick?
Writers will also say, “I know you’re going to reject this but I’m going to send it anyway,” or “I know you’re going to reject this but I want it to be read.” Again, why? Why are you a. shooting yourself in the foot with self-deprecation and b. deliberately wasting your time and mine by submitting something you know is wrong? If you want your writing to be read, join a writing group. If you want your writing to be legitimately considered for publication, submit it to a magazine.
If I’ve learned anything editing, it’s that there’s no pleasing anyone, there’s probably no pleasing me, and anything can blossom into a frustration on any given day but golly, some writer behaviors are more grating than others. Let us all, as writers, help ourselves by avoiding these types of practices.
Just how many stories/poems/other word things do you have lying in wait? (30 or so in various stages of readiness.)
How often are you willing to submit to a magazine before you take a break or accept that acceptance might not happen? (5?)
When does persistence become something other than virtuous?
Tags: persistence, Submissions, writers
i used to send a new submission 1-3 weeks after receiving a rejection
i wrote a lot of garbage and i sent a lot of garbage out
now i think i write less garbage and i send less garbage out (this is to say that i write and submit less than i did — mostly)
i try NOT to give up on myself with specific magazines. there are a few that have rejected me over 15 or 20 times. I am discouraged but I try to keep sending them stuff.
Sometimes it’s more like a test of determination: “I am going to keep sending them poems just because they won’t publish me” — Maybe this is the wrong idea. I don’t know really. I’m pretty sure this is where persistence becomes something other than virtuous
I have between 8 and 12 “publishable” pieces at this moment. I guess.
I have almost nothing in my “files” that is not published. I think right now one older story and three or four very short things I just wrote.
For how many times I’ll submit to a place without them showing interest probably depends on how much money they pay. If they don’t pay a lot though, the answer is probably: 1 or 2 times.
I’m a little freaked out by how closely some of the writers’ comments you quoted seem to line up with a rhetoric of misogyny: “I will break your defenses,” or “I will conquer you.” Wow, yeah. Really?
5 is probably a good number. This got me thinking so I checked my stats–I’m at 6 at one place (ouch). 4 at a couple more. Really, you think about it, 3 is probably enough to know when the water ain’t right, but faith and hope and whatever else sometimes blinds.
“Accept that acceptance might not happen” – doesn’t the magazine/publication be specified here (or at least type of publication / visability?) – I will always submit to the NYer, Poetry Magazine, Paris Review. I mean, why stop at five with these guys? It would be nice to be a fluke.
McSweeney’s as well. Mostly because I love what they are so often willing to do, and they send awfully kind rejections that are mighty human.
Yeah, I think this is a factor. Also, the number of years you’ve been submitting has to count for something. I used to submit to McSweeney’s and the Colorado Review and Black Warrior back when I was still in undergrad. I got rejected a lot. Probably upwards of 5 times. Does that mean that now, years later, I shouldn’t submit there because I hit some arbitrary number? No. One thing to keep in mind is that lit journal editorial has such a high turnover rate, that as long as you’re not bombarding mags, you’ll probably get a fresh set of eyes every year or two.
Personally, I try to never send more than one story per reading cycle. With flash, I occasionally break that rule. For longer stuff, however, I sometimes limit myself to two submissions per year per journal.
When I said 1 or 2, it was to places that don’t pay well. Paris Review, McSweeney’s and the NYer all do. McSweeney’s is also a place that really might publish something. They bought the first thing I sent them and they have bought work by other people I know. The NYer feels snobby to me and their fiction tends to either make me want to vomit or go to sleep. Paris review obviously publishes a lot of classy work, so I think they are worth submitting to over the years even if they aren’t buying.
But let’s say there is an online market that pays nothing, and isn’t taking your work or saying something like “It didn’t work for us this time, but we like your writing so please try again,” then continuing to submit does seem like a form of Sado-Masochism
i would be interested to hear if all such statements were in fact made by male writers
Perhaps the self-deprecating thing is a false modesty that they hope will endear them to editors. I suppose that would make it the opposite of the often-mentioned “my work is genius/you are talentless hacks/i hate you/i am immune to criticism/behold my wrath” responses you also get. Neither extreme seems particularly useful, but on the receiving end, I prefer #1 by a slim margin. It also annoys me less than people not following directions.
those guys sounds like weak Ahnold impersonators.
i used to send a new submission 1-3 weeks after receiving a rejection
i wrote a lot of garbage and i sent a lot of garbage out
now i think i write less garbage and i send less garbage out (this is to say that i write and submit less than i did — mostly)
i try NOT to give up on myself with specific magazines. there are a few that have rejected me over 15 or 20 times. I am discouraged but I try to keep sending them stuff.
Sometimes it’s more like a test of determination: “I am going to keep sending them poems just because they won’t publish me” — Maybe this is the wrong idea. I don’t know really. I’m pretty sure this is where persistence becomes something other than virtuous
I have between 8 and 12 “publishable” pieces at this moment. I guess.
I have almost nothing in my “files” that is not published. I think right now one older story and three or four very short things I just wrote.
For how many times I’ll submit to a place without them showing interest probably depends on how much money they pay. If they don’t pay a lot though, the answer is probably: 1 or 2 times.
Yeah, the money thing is a really interesting point, Brendan. A close friend of mine (and a writer whose work I really respect) avoids non-paying markets even though we’re around similar stages in our “writing careers” (wow, I feel like a douche writing that, so let’s just say we have comparable publications, degrees, teaching experience and so on). Anyway, he’s always making the case that writers should be paid for their stories, but this is something that’s never really affected where I submit. I’d love to hear more thoughts on this. The New Yorker does seem snobbish but would you rather $1000 and publication at some really small magazine or no money and publication in The New Yorker (I know this is totally rhetorical because TNY pays its contributors, but still)? I’d go with TNY every time.
I’m a little freaked out by how closely some of the writers’ comments you quoted seem to line up with a rhetoric of misogyny: “I will break your defenses,” or “I will conquer you.” Wow, yeah. Really?
5 is probably a good number. This got me thinking so I checked my stats–I’m at 6 at one place (ouch). 4 at a couple more. Really, you think about it, 3 is probably enough to know when the water ain’t right, but faith and hope and whatever else sometimes blinds.
“Accept that acceptance might not happen” – doesn’t the magazine/publication be specified here (or at least type of publication / visability?) – I will always submit to the NYer, Poetry Magazine, Paris Review. I mean, why stop at five with these guys? It would be nice to be a fluke.
McSweeney’s as well. Mostly because I love what they are so often willing to do, and they send awfully kind rejections that are mighty human.
“How often are you willing to submit to a magazine before you take a break or accept that acceptance might not happen? (5?)”
I certainly wouldn’t quit anywhere near five! Of course I made the mistake (?) of sending my work out probably before it was ready, before I went to an MFA at least, and have certainly amassed five rejections from almost every magazine.
That said, I agree with most of your post and I wouldn’t send a magazine like a half dozen submissions in a year like so many writers seem to do, unless that magazine was giving me nice rejections and asking for more.
Although I guess if I ignored all my older work and my years of submitting and was only counting recent post-MFA work maybe 5 would be getting up there. Not sure. I’m much more selective about my submissions these days.
Of course, the other question is what you are sending these places. My impression as an editor and writer is that most writers tend to send their mediocore work to online markets that pay nothing or smaller mags or new mags. And I can understand why. But if you’ve had your dregs rejected five times, that doesn’t mean your decent work won’t get in.
i dont think its false modesty. i read them more like a writer is trying to cushion the blow of rejection for themselves, they tell themselves to expect rejection from the getgo, so later they can not be so punched by it and say, well i knew it was going to get rejected anyway.
Yeah, I think this is a factor. Also, the number of years you’ve been submitting has to count for something. I used to submit to McSweeney’s and the Colorado Review and Black Warrior back when I was still in undergrad. I got rejected a lot. Probably upwards of 5 times. Does that mean that now, years later, I shouldn’t submit there because I hit some arbitrary number? No. One thing to keep in mind is that lit journal editorial has such a high turnover rate, that as long as you’re not bombarding mags, you’ll probably get a fresh set of eyes every year or two.
Personally, I try to never send more than one story per reading cycle. With flash, I occasionally break that rule. For longer stuff, however, I sometimes limit myself to two submissions per year per journal.
When I said 1 or 2, it was to places that don’t pay well. Paris Review, McSweeney’s and the NYer all do. McSweeney’s is also a place that really might publish something. They bought the first thing I sent them and they have bought work by other people I know. The NYer feels snobby to me and their fiction tends to either make me want to vomit or go to sleep. Paris review obviously publishes a lot of classy work, so I think they are worth submitting to over the years even if they aren’t buying.
But let’s say there is an online market that pays nothing, and isn’t taking your work or saying something like “It didn’t work for us this time, but we like your writing so please try again,” then continuing to submit does seem like a form of Sado-Masochism
i would be interested to hear if all such statements were in fact made by male writers
I agree. It isn’t modesty of any kind.
Perhaps the self-deprecating thing is a false modesty that they hope will endear them to editors. I suppose that would make it the opposite of the often-mentioned “my work is genius/you are talentless hacks/i hate you/i am immune to criticism/behold my wrath” responses you also get. Neither extreme seems particularly useful, but on the receiving end, I prefer #1 by a slim margin. It also annoys me less than people not following directions.
those guys sounds like weak Ahnold impersonators.
I am now hearing these sentences in Ahnold-speak. It is way funny.
Yeah, honestly, even with super-nice rejections, I feel like you want to give it more than a couple weeks before you send something else. If I reject somebody I feel pretty weird getting another submission from them the next day. Maybe that’s just me.
Possibly change “more than a couple weeks” to “at least a couple weeks.” I’m not saying you need to wait months and months or anything.
I wonder how the type of magazine factors into this though. At a small magazine you know the same people will notice your new submission, but at a big magazine , your submission just goes into a pile or into the CLMP system and perhaps no one notices it was sent right after your rejection?
The problem with the NYer is that they get so many submissions and they are so square that if I send them something, I feel like the chance of them publishing it is 1/1000, or 1/500 at best. Printing and sending the story costs me about 2 bucks. So, based on odds, that is pretty much break even. McSweeney’s pays half as much, but you can do it on-line and I would say the chances of them accepting something are much higher. And though their readership is significantly smaller than the NYer, it is also significantly more dedicated. People don’t put McS in the recycle bin.
And it is also sort of a question of how one wants to lead their life.
I used to send what I considered to be my worst work to online markets. But after a while I realised that was a very bad strategy. Because online is where someone is most likely to read something. If they don’t like it, they are not going to run off and bye your book.
So now I don’t submit anything anywhere if I don’t think it is good, and don’t distinguish on quality level depending on paying, non-paying, on-line or paper. Having a bunch of bad stuff published on line is a good way to make people think you are not a good writer.
Yeah, the money thing is a really interesting point, Brendan. A close friend of mine (and a writer whose work I really respect) avoids non-paying markets even though we’re around similar stages in our “writing careers” (wow, I feel like a douche writing that, so let’s just say we have comparable publications, degrees, teaching experience and so on). Anyway, he’s always making the case that writers should be paid for their stories, but this is something that’s never really affected where I submit. I’d love to hear more thoughts on this. The New Yorker does seem snobbish but would you rather $1000 and publication at some really small magazine or no money and publication in The New Yorker (I know this is totally rhetorical because TNY pays its contributors, but still)? I’d go with TNY every time.
Lincoln, I do think that it’s more noticeable at smaller magazines. I read everything so I know who the frequent fliers are. When I was at a much bigger magazine, I would have never ever noticed some of the repeat submitters.
Brendan, just as an FYI, you can submit to The New Yorker online.
Yeah, I assume there is a way to check in the CLMP system, but I doubt anyone really does.
I feel like this issue is somewhat situational. I tend to wait just to be on the safe side and because I’m lazy, but really there isn’t a rational reason to wait a few weeks for a big magazine if I sent them the first story 8 months ago, or whatever. That is plenty of time for me to have polished up a new piece. Waiting three weeks just seems silly in that case.
On the flip side, if a magazine is getting back to me in a very short time span it seems rude to just keep throwing stuff at them an editor it is clear many people just scramble to send out new material that isn’t finished.
Lincoln, what really gets under my skin is the machine like repetition of submissions. We instituted the seven day policy because writers were literally submitting every single day. Sometimes, they would submit more than once a day when we were really on top of the queue. Mindless submitting is so inconsiderate to me and as I noted, often times, writers will submit stories that are exactly the same even after I’ve pointed out what, about that kind of story, isn’t right for our magazine. Argh. Just thinking about it makes me irritable. But yes, with a big magazine, there’s no ned to wait, really. If you have something appropriate to submit upon rejection, it makes sense to just send it. They’ll never notice or care.
I feel weird submitting again. I feel like, well… alright, so it didn’t work out. I’ll move on. There are A LOT of magazines out there, do I *need* to be in this one or that one? I dunno. Of course, I’d like to resubmit to some places, like, um, Pank, but I’m not submitting at all right now b/c I’m hoping to sell my novel in the fall (I signed with an agent a couple of weeks back) and it seems to make more sense to have stories derived from the novel come out closer to the publication date, no?
Believe me, as an editor I totally feel you there. A lot of writers are fairly insulting in how they handle the submission process.
But I don’t think a four week hold is some strict rule you should have, as Tadd seemed to suggest. If a magazine is taking more than 6 months to respond and you have something polished and ready…
See, I do think sometimes you can submit a story that doesn’t work and the editor will say hey send more. I know when I say send more, I very much mean it. I do not say that to every writer. I say that to writers when I feel like they have the potential to show me something I’m going to love. Even if you aren’t explicitly encouraged to resubmit, I think you can and should. My only frustration is with the chronic submitters who become obsessive and weird about submitting over and over and over without respite. Sometimes, a break in submitting is a good thing. Congratulations on securing an agent. I wouldn’t hold off on submitting to try and time the publication of your novel. It could be years before the book sees publication given how slow it is from book deal to bookstore. In the meantime you still want to get your work and to a lesser extent your name out there. I’m no expert though. I’m sure people with books can weigh in on this.
“How often are you willing to submit to a magazine before you take a break or accept that acceptance might not happen? (5?)”
I certainly wouldn’t quit anywhere near five! Of course I made the mistake (?) of sending my work out probably before it was ready, before I went to an MFA at least, and have certainly amassed five rejections from almost every magazine.
That said, I agree with most of your post and I wouldn’t send a magazine like a half dozen submissions in a year like so many writers seem to do, unless that magazine was giving me nice rejections and asking for more.
Although I guess if I ignored all my older work and my years of submitting and was only counting recent post-MFA work maybe 5 would be getting up there. Not sure. I’m much more selective about my submissions these days.
I feel guilty submitting again too soon when I’m actively asked to. Sometimes I do it anyway. I try not to submit anywhere more than two or three times a year unless invited.
Of course, the other question is what you are sending these places. My impression as an editor and writer is that most writers tend to send their mediocore work to online markets that pay nothing or smaller mags or new mags. And I can understand why. But if you’ve had your dregs rejected five times, that doesn’t mean your decent work won’t get in.
Thanks, Roxane. I’m not jumping up and down yet. But I am cautiously optimistic. I would like to know as well what more people think about submitting stuff derived from the book now or closer to publication date. Ugh, yeah… it better not be years. Seriously.
Curious why you said this: “You still want to get your work and to a lesser extent your name out there.” Aren’t they the same thing, essentially?
Right? I don’t feel guilty, but like I said above: weird. Probably just me trippin.
i dont think its false modesty. i read them more like a writer is trying to cushion the blow of rejection for themselves, they tell themselves to expect rejection from the getgo, so later they can not be so punched by it and say, well i knew it was going to get rejected anyway.
ha, now that you say that i’m picturing them methodically surveying the screen, leaning in, and saying their lines to editors who will never hear them.
I agree. It isn’t modesty of any kind.
I am now hearing these sentences in Ahnold-speak. It is way funny.
Yeah, honestly, even with super-nice rejections, I feel like you want to give it more than a couple weeks before you send something else. If I reject somebody I feel pretty weird getting another submission from them the next day. Maybe that’s just me.
Possibly change “more than a couple weeks” to “at least a couple weeks.” I’m not saying you need to wait months and months or anything.
I wonder how the type of magazine factors into this though. At a small magazine you know the same people will notice your new submission, but at a big magazine , your submission just goes into a pile or into the CLMP system and perhaps no one notices it was sent right after your rejection?
The problem with the NYer is that they get so many submissions and they are so square that if I send them something, I feel like the chance of them publishing it is 1/1000, or 1/500 at best. Printing and sending the story costs me about 2 bucks. So, based on odds, that is pretty much break even. McSweeney’s pays half as much, but you can do it on-line and I would say the chances of them accepting something are much higher. And though their readership is significantly smaller than the NYer, it is also significantly more dedicated. People don’t put McS in the recycle bin.
And it is also sort of a question of how one wants to lead their life.
I used to send what I considered to be my worst work to online markets. But after a while I realised that was a very bad strategy. Because online is where someone is most likely to read something. If they don’t like it, they are not going to run off and bye your book.
So now I don’t submit anything anywhere if I don’t think it is good, and don’t distinguish on quality level depending on paying, non-paying, on-line or paper. Having a bunch of bad stuff published on line is a good way to make people think you are not a good writer.
Lincoln, I do think that it’s more noticeable at smaller magazines. I read everything so I know who the frequent fliers are. When I was at a much bigger magazine, I would have never ever noticed some of the repeat submitters.
Brendan, just as an FYI, you can submit to The New Yorker online.
Yeah, I assume there is a way to check in the CLMP system, but I doubt anyone really does.
I feel like this issue is somewhat situational. I tend to wait just to be on the safe side and because I’m lazy, but really there isn’t a rational reason to wait a few weeks for a big magazine if I sent them the first story 8 months ago, or whatever. That is plenty of time for me to have polished up a new piece. Waiting three weeks just seems silly in that case.
On the flip side, if a magazine is getting back to me in a very short time span it seems rude to just keep throwing stuff at them an editor it is clear many people just scramble to send out new material that isn’t finished.
Lincoln, what really gets under my skin is the machine like repetition of submissions. We instituted the seven day policy because writers were literally submitting every single day. Sometimes, they would submit more than once a day when we were really on top of the queue. Mindless submitting is so inconsiderate to me and as I noted, often times, writers will submit stories that are exactly the same even after I’ve pointed out what, about that kind of story, isn’t right for our magazine. Argh. Just thinking about it makes me irritable. But yes, with a big magazine, there’s no ned to wait, really. If you have something appropriate to submit upon rejection, it makes sense to just send it. They’ll never notice or care.
I feel weird submitting again. I feel like, well… alright, so it didn’t work out. I’ll move on. There are A LOT of magazines out there, do I *need* to be in this one or that one? I dunno. Of course, I’d like to resubmit to some places, like, um, Pank, but I’m not submitting at all right now b/c I’m hoping to sell my novel in the fall (I signed with an agent a couple of weeks back) and it seems to make more sense to have stories derived from the novel come out closer to the publication date, no?
Believe me, as an editor I totally feel you there. A lot of writers are fairly insulting in how they handle the submission process.
But I don’t think a four week hold is some strict rule you should have, as Tadd seemed to suggest. If a magazine is taking more than 6 months to respond and you have something polished and ready…
See, I do think sometimes you can submit a story that doesn’t work and the editor will say hey send more. I know when I say send more, I very much mean it. I do not say that to every writer. I say that to writers when I feel like they have the potential to show me something I’m going to love. Even if you aren’t explicitly encouraged to resubmit, I think you can and should. My only frustration is with the chronic submitters who become obsessive and weird about submitting over and over and over without respite. Sometimes, a break in submitting is a good thing. Congratulations on securing an agent. I wouldn’t hold off on submitting to try and time the publication of your novel. It could be years before the book sees publication given how slow it is from book deal to bookstore. In the meantime you still want to get your work and to a lesser extent your name out there. I’m no expert though. I’m sure people with books can weigh in on this.
Thanks, Roxane. I’m not jumping up and down yet. But I am cautiously optimistic. I would like to know as well what more people think about submitting stuff derived from the book now or closer to publication date. Ugh, yeah… it better not be years. Seriously.
Curious why you said this: “You still want to get your work and to a lesser extent your name out there.” Aren’t they the same thing, essentially?
Right? I don’t feel guilty, but like I said above: weird. Probably just me trippin.
No, that’s me, too, Tadd. I always wait at least a couple of weeks, and as an editor, it really shocks me when people will turn around and submit something five minutes after a rejection. I wish I could convey to them how much that colors my view of their work and just annoys me. Maybe that’s terrible, but it’s the truth.
ha, now that you say that i’m picturing them methodically surveying the screen, leaning in, and saying their lines to editors who will never hear them.
Thanks Roxanne, that is good to know. I think the last time I submitted to them was a good 10 years ago.
If I ever have anything I think is a accomplished enough, maybe I will.
Wow…so when did the rhetoric of war start stealing from the rhetoric of misogyny? “Conquer?” “Break defenses”? My god, if I was the rhetoric of misogyny, I’d be calling my lawyer right about now!
It’s fucking infuriating to me when someone keeps submitting things after I’ve written them rejections that say “your style is inconsistent with what we like to publish.” That’s as coherent and non-rude as I can say that I don’t like their writing and probably won’t in the near future. If they submit after that there’s just a feeling like you’re talking to a submissions robot, a being programmed only to throw work at you, not read and appreciate anything that you publish. Because then it’s like, alright, you clearly don’t give a shit about this project, you just want to be published somewhere, anywhere. And that shit doesn’t make any sense to me.
However, I fully respect when the repeat submitters quality of work grows closer to what I’m interested in. Cause then it’s more of a dialogue. Jim Ruland sent me a piece that was pretty deep inside a characters head, not much happening externally, not really my taste. I rejected it on those grounds and then he asked if he could send something else over. I said sure and he sent this piece with tons of external action and dialogue that we ended up running in the newest issue.
When the Robot Submitters get rejected it’s doesn’t compute with them, they see it as the mags fault that their story was rejected, it couldn’t possibly be the writing. So run the equation again.
Fuck that. The point of this is to connect with people, not talk at them.
It’s effected how I submit. I don’t submit anywhere unless I know it’s writing I can stand behind and that it fits my perception of the mags aesthetic. If it gets rejected, then I try to figure out which one, or both of, these things I was wrong about.
Just for full disclosure, I have never actually submitted anything to the New Yorker. I just used them as an example.
However, their fiction podcasts totally rule.
No, that’s me, too, Tadd. I always wait at least a couple of weeks, and as an editor, it really shocks me when people will turn around and submit something five minutes after a rejection. I wish I could convey to them how much that colors my view of their work and just annoys me. Maybe that’s terrible, but it’s the truth.
chris, tons of respect to you and anna, but the anger vibe i always feel from you with regard to writers always turns me off. for a long time i always thought about submitting but id go to the guidelines and they would tell me to fuck off. and i would be like, ok, sorry then. i dont think its fair to expect the same level of devotion to your project from writers that you have. no writer is egoless. there are so many markets out there, writers have no choice but to spread their devotion thin.
also, i think saying ‘your style is inconsistent with what we publish’ to almost akin to blacklisting. it assumes writers styles are static, and i think gives writers who end up developing over time a bad taste in their mouth when thinking about sending in the future.
I’ll buy that. I’d also buy that sometimes it’s calculated for effect, even if it’s ineffective.
darby, I hear you on the anger vibe. I’ve gotten a lot of complaints about that and it caused me to look at why I was doing it. It was pretty immature, reactionary and inarticualte. I realized I probably drove away a lot of good writing trying to weed out the trollers. I’ve since removed it and tried to articulate why I felt that way.
I have a very low tolerance for bad writing. Writing is one of the only things in the world that I can make some sense out and when I see it incongruous with how I understand it I get angry. Part of my daily mission is to try to move past that and understand it. I always thought I’d be a poor writing teacher in that regard as I simply don’t have the patience. Time will tell if I’m getting better at it. God knows I strive to be a force of positivity in this world but my human nature makes me negative most of the time.
To the ‘blacklisting’ comment: I think that speaks to the patience thing. I agree that writers develop over time. But what I was talking about was folks whom I’ve rejected and given them reasons why, time and time again, (clear, thought-out reasons) why their piece didn’t work, yet they still keep coming without any progression or regard for what it is that I’m saying. Sometimes not even a cover letter. Just bam, word doc after word doc. It feels like I’m not even talking to a human. And at that point I have to draw a line and be like look, you’re not willing to work with me so I don’t think this can realisticaly go any further.
I’m not expecting anyone to be singualrly devoted to anna, that’d be crazy. There’s plenty of mags out there that I read and wish for the success of (side note: one of the things I love about idie lit is the comradery, the feeling of one persons success reflecting well on all of us, and how we’ve, for the most part, managed to skirt bitterness and jealousy that I see in the upper echelons of the writing world). The way I see it we’re all working towards the same goal here: to connect with readers and shed light on the best stories we can. And if that’s the goal, is it such an awful thing to expect nothing short of the best of what a writer can bring to the table?
Thanks Roxanne, that is good to know. I think the last time I submitted to them was a good 10 years ago.
If I ever have anything I think is a accomplished enough, maybe I will.
thanks for the thoughtful response, chris. i think its good to expect the best, sure.
i come at it a little differently maybe as an editor, not so community-driven. i dont think of submissions as potential forgings of relationships or trying to help writers get better. just words for me. ones i like stay, ones i dont go away, not much else.
Wow…so when did the rhetoric of war start stealing from the rhetoric of misogyny? “Conquer?” “Break defenses”? My god, if I was the rhetoric of misogyny, I’d be calling my lawyer right about now!
It’s fucking infuriating to me when someone keeps submitting things after I’ve written them rejections that say “your style is inconsistent with what we like to publish.” That’s as coherent and non-rude as I can say that I don’t like their writing and probably won’t in the near future. If they submit after that there’s just a feeling like you’re talking to a submissions robot, a being programmed only to throw work at you, not read and appreciate anything that you publish. Because then it’s like, alright, you clearly don’t give a shit about this project, you just want to be published somewhere, anywhere. And that shit doesn’t make any sense to me.
However, I fully respect when the repeat submitters quality of work grows closer to what I’m interested in. Cause then it’s more of a dialogue. Jim Ruland sent me a piece that was pretty deep inside a characters head, not much happening externally, not really my taste. I rejected it on those grounds and then he asked if he could send something else over. I said sure and he sent this piece with tons of external action and dialogue that we ended up running in the newest issue.
When the Robot Submitters get rejected it’s doesn’t compute with them, they see it as the mags fault that their story was rejected, it couldn’t possibly be the writing. So run the equation again.
Fuck that. The point of this is to connect with people, not talk at them.
It’s effected how I submit. I don’t submit anywhere unless I know it’s writing I can stand behind and that it fits my perception of the mags aesthetic. If it gets rejected, then I try to figure out which one, or both of, these things I was wrong about.
Just for full disclosure, I have never actually submitted anything to the New Yorker. I just used them as an example.
However, their fiction podcasts totally rule.
No sweat, darby. Hope you see fit to submit sometime. I’m interested to read some of your work.
chris, tons of respect to you and anna, but the anger vibe i always feel from you with regard to writers always turns me off. for a long time i always thought about submitting but id go to the guidelines and they would tell me to fuck off. and i would be like, ok, sorry then. i dont think its fair to expect the same level of devotion to your project from writers that you have. no writer is egoless. there are so many markets out there, writers have no choice but to spread their devotion thin.
also, i think saying ‘your style is inconsistent with what we publish’ to almost akin to blacklisting. it assumes writers styles are static, and i think gives writers who end up developing over time a bad taste in their mouth when thinking about sending in the future.
I’ll buy that. I’d also buy that sometimes it’s calculated for effect, even if it’s ineffective.
darby, I hear you on the anger vibe. I’ve gotten a lot of complaints about that and it caused me to look at why I was doing it. It was pretty immature, reactionary and inarticualte. I realized I probably drove away a lot of good writing trying to weed out the trollers. I’ve since removed it and tried to articulate why I felt that way.
I have a very low tolerance for bad writing. Writing is one of the only things in the world that I can make some sense out and when I see it incongruous with how I understand it I get angry. Part of my daily mission is to try to move past that and understand it. I always thought I’d be a poor writing teacher in that regard as I simply don’t have the patience. Time will tell if I’m getting better at it. God knows I strive to be a force of positivity in this world but my human nature makes me negative most of the time.
To the ‘blacklisting’ comment: I think that speaks to the patience thing. I agree that writers develop over time. But what I was talking about was folks whom I’ve rejected and given them reasons why, time and time again, (clear, thought-out reasons) why their piece didn’t work, yet they still keep coming without any progression or regard for what it is that I’m saying. Sometimes not even a cover letter. Just bam, word doc after word doc. It feels like I’m not even talking to a human. And at that point I have to draw a line and be like look, you’re not willing to work with me so I don’t think this can realisticaly go any further.
I’m not expecting anyone to be singualrly devoted to anna, that’d be crazy. There’s plenty of mags out there that I read and wish for the success of (side note: one of the things I love about idie lit is the comradery, the feeling of one persons success reflecting well on all of us, and how we’ve, for the most part, managed to skirt bitterness and jealousy that I see in the upper echelons of the writing world). The way I see it we’re all working towards the same goal here: to connect with readers and shed light on the best stories we can. And if that’s the goal, is it such an awful thing to expect nothing short of the best of what a writer can bring to the table?
thanks for the thoughtful response, chris. i think its good to expect the best, sure.
i come at it a little differently maybe as an editor, not so community-driven. i dont think of submissions as potential forgings of relationships or trying to help writers get better. just words for me. ones i like stay, ones i dont go away, not much else.
No sweat, darby. Hope you see fit to submit sometime. I’m interested to read some of your work.
I understand where Chris is coming from. If someone keeps sending you unicorn porn, and you’ve told them, hey, the unicorn porn thing isn’t working for me, it’s going to be frustrating to see a story titled “The Spiraled Horn” in your inbox.
I understand where Chris is coming from. If someone keeps sending you unicorn porn, and you’ve told them, hey, the unicorn porn thing isn’t working for me, it’s going to be frustrating to see a story titled “The Spiraled Horn” in your inbox.
[…] Without recounting the entire conversation (it’s at the bottom of the thread, you can read it here), we got on the topic of community, to which Darby […]
[…] Heavener of Annalemma is talking about connections, community, & submissions. This is an important conversation (isn’t it?) & I’d love to know what the BigOther […]