Behind the Scenes
Servicey: Should You Get an MFA? Find out for $1100 + Room/Board in NYC
I have no problem with capitalism or unique ways of creating profit and independent magazines have to really think outside the box to generate money. To that end, today I got an e-mail from One Story about their intimate writer’s workshop that will answer the age-old question: Should I get an MFA?
For the tidy sum of $1100 PLUS a $25 application fee One Story says:
The week will include morning workshops, afternoon craft lectures, and evening panels with writers, editors, agents, and MFA directors. All events are designed to give students the practical advice they need to either apply for an MFA or launch their career outside of academia.
We are crafting a unique experience, both practical and creative, for writers who hope for a career in fiction writing. Students will leave with:
- A workshopped portfolio they can use as their writing sample
- Advice from MFA directors about what they look for in an applicant
- A full understanding of the range of MFA and non-MFA options
- Insight about what an MFA can offer a writer
- A breakdown of the financial implications of an MFA
- A community of writers at the same stage of their career
- Access to One Story editors and authors
- A look at the wider publishing world from literary agents, editors, and writers
I am fascinated by these sorts of workshops and people who could afford to spend this kind of money. I will do all these things for you for $110! One-tenth of the price! BARGAIN! For free you can consult Dr. Google about what an MFA might offer you. Or you could ask a writer. Options, they’re fantastic.
Yeah this is pretty unethical.
I got this email today, too. At first I thought, “well, if it includes room & board (or at least room) then this is basically a one-week writing-themed vacation to New York, which I could imagine having appeal for somebody who doesn’t live here. But then I read on, and sure enough, it does not include room and board–though I do think that including an unlimited metro-card is a nice touch.
With all due respect to One Story, this does not pass the smell test. Pay-to-play “career counseling” for the arts is pretty much *never* a good idea. They’ve gone over into Seth Abramson territory, and I’m sorry to see it.
For anyone who is interested/curious/concerned, HERE IS HOW TO GET INTO MFA SCHOOL:
1) Write your ass off and heart out, forever all the time.
2) Spend a couple afternoons on the web, looking at schools that have faculties you are interested in working with and learning from, and/or who seem like they might be interested in what you are doing. Prioritize those schools that are (a) in places you might actually want to live, and (b) might give you some money or at least a job.
3) Take the 1100 dollars you were going to give to One Story to have them tell you that same thing I just said, and apply to your top five to ten choices. With the money left over after you pay the app fees (it’ll be about 800d of the 1100) buy yourself a hundred dollars’ worth of books, because honestly, you haven’t been reading enough, and good writing is born out of good reading. Then take the 700 remaining dollars and save it, because you’re going to need it to move across the country with when you get in somewhere.
4) If the last part of step 3 (get in somewhere) does not work out for you, repeat steps 1-3 until it does.
And that’s how you go to MFA school.
Yeah this is pretty unethical.
I got this email today, too. At first I thought, “well, if it includes room & board (or at least room) then this is basically a one-week writing-themed vacation to New York, which I could imagine having appeal for somebody who doesn’t live here. But then I read on, and sure enough, it does not include room and board–though I do think that including an unlimited metro-card is a nice touch.
With all due respect to One Story, this does not pass the smell test. Pay-to-play “career counseling” for the arts is pretty much *never* a good idea. They’ve gone over into Seth Abramson territory, and I’m sorry to see it.
For anyone who is interested/curious/concerned, HERE IS HOW TO GET INTO MFA SCHOOL:
1) Write your ass off and heart out, forever all the time.
2) Spend a couple afternoons on the web, looking at schools that have faculties you are interested in working with and learning from, and/or who seem like they might be interested in what you are doing. Prioritize those schools that are (a) in places you might actually want to live, and (b) might give you some money or at least a job.
3) Take the 1100 dollars you were going to give to One Story to have them tell you that same thing I just said, and apply to your top five to ten choices. With the money left over after you pay the app fees (it’ll be about 800d of the 1100) buy yourself a hundred dollars’ worth of books, because honestly, you haven’t been reading enough, and good writing is born out of good reading. Then take the 700 remaining dollars and save it, because you’re going to need it to move across the country with when you get in somewhere.
4) If the last part of step 3 (get in somewhere) does not work out for you, repeat steps 1-3 until it does.
And that’s how you go to MFA school.
That was my first thought, “Is Seth Abramson behind this?”
That was my first thought, “Is Seth Abramson behind this?”
nice, Justin.
or then, you could even just repeat step 1 over and over, call it Private School MFA. the other 2 are bonus.
nice, Justin.
or then, you could even just repeat step 1 over and over, call it Private School MFA. the other 2 are bonus.
With everything on the web, including virtual workshops and some writers who will gladly share work with you, with libraries full of books, there is no need to spend any money to become a writer, save buying books that you will read and reread. But that’s the easy part. If you can’t make yourself write, all the money in the world won’t help.
With everything on the web, including virtual workshops and some writers who will gladly share work with you, with libraries full of books, there is no need to spend any money to become a writer, save buying books that you will read and reread. But that’s the easy part. If you can’t make yourself write, all the money in the world won’t help.
Let’s do the time warp again!
I mean.
Let’s do the time warp again!
I mean.
I guess. I dunno. I loved my time in MFA school. I felt like I had a fantastic time and learned a ton. But more than that, I really cherished the experience of being consistently immersed in an environment and culture where literature’s value was understood to be both inherent and paramount. Totally apart from questions of “career” or “success” or anything else- I just think it was a great way to feel, and anyone who is seriously invested in literature (not just their own, but the whole enterprises) deserves to feel that way and will benefit from it. You and I are the lucky ones- we have incredibly supportive and active literary communities both in the towns where we live and on the web, not least via our little couch-fort on this site. But for the vast majority of MFA-goers, those two or three years are the only time in their lives when they get to exist in that world, and they regard doing it as a high privilege, and hang onto the memory of having done it for years and decades after the experience itself is passed. So I’m all for people going to MFA school; but approaching it as a commodity rather than an experience or a life-choice is just the wrong way to go about it. To suggest that there’s any kind of straight line between means and ends here is absolutely disingenuous.
I guess. I dunno. I loved my time in MFA school. I felt like I had a fantastic time and learned a ton. But more than that, I really cherished the experience of being consistently immersed in an environment and culture where literature’s value was understood to be both inherent and paramount. Totally apart from questions of “career” or “success” or anything else- I just think it was a great way to feel, and anyone who is seriously invested in literature (not just their own, but the whole enterprises) deserves to feel that way and will benefit from it. You and I are the lucky ones- we have incredibly supportive and active literary communities both in the towns where we live and on the web, not least via our little couch-fort on this site. But for the vast majority of MFA-goers, those two or three years are the only time in their lives when they get to exist in that world, and they regard doing it as a high privilege, and hang onto the memory of having done it for years and decades after the experience itself is passed. So I’m all for people going to MFA school; but approaching it as a commodity rather than an experience or a life-choice is just the wrong way to go about it. To suggest that there’s any kind of straight line between means and ends here is absolutely disingenuous.
PS- last line maybe unclear. I mean it is disingenuous of OS to suggest that there is a means-ends line between (a) their prep-course and getting into school somewhere, (b) getting into school somewhere and having a “career” as a writer.
PS- last line maybe unclear. I mean it is disingenuous of OS to suggest that there is a means-ends line between (a) their prep-course and getting into school somewhere, (b) getting into school somewhere and having a “career” as a writer.
Morning workshops, afternoon craft lectures and evening panels at that price point sound like a summer conference, a la Tin House or Sewanee. I wonder if the MFA Admissions Insider Secrets frosting is intended to give it an angle/make sure seats get filled. And I bet it’s cheaper on the back end, because you don’t have to pay admissions committee reps what you’d have to pay, say, Jonathan Lethem. Not that picking it apart takes away any of my cynicism.
Greg, I think there are still plenty of people who crave the in-person experience, and there will be for a long while yet. But I couldn’t agree with your last line more.
Morning workshops, afternoon craft lectures and evening panels at that price point sound like a summer conference, a la Tin House or Sewanee. I wonder if the MFA Admissions Insider Secrets frosting is intended to give it an angle/make sure seats get filled. And I bet it’s cheaper on the back end, because you don’t have to pay admissions committee reps what you’d have to pay, say, Jonathan Lethem. Not that picking it apart takes away any of my cynicism.
Greg, I think there are still plenty of people who crave the in-person experience, and there will be for a long while yet. But I couldn’t agree with your last line more.
“A breakdown of the financial implications of an MFA”
ironic, eh?
“A breakdown of the financial implications of an MFA”
ironic, eh?
I got this email, too. I thought to myself, jeez, I spent a few bucks on the Atlantic MFA issue 2.5 years ago and said, wow, there are Low Res MFAs??? Perfect for a tied-down guy like me. Change my life. Five bucks. Or thereabouts.
I got this email, too. I thought to myself, jeez, I spent a few bucks on the Atlantic MFA issue 2.5 years ago and said, wow, there are Low Res MFAs??? Perfect for a tied-down guy like me. Change my life. Five bucks. Or thereabouts.
first thing they should teach wanna be writers is to ease up on buying all the books of your so called friends to “support” them. it’s amazing how much money you spend that way. i’ve spent 50 x more on books than i have getting paid to write. who the fuck, other than stephanie meyer types, is making a great career as a writer? i hear you gotta teach and preach and all the rest, just like JCO, in nearly all cases.
first thing they should teach wanna be writers is to ease up on buying all the books of your so called friends to “support” them. it’s amazing how much money you spend that way. i’ve spent 50 x more on books than i have getting paid to write. who the fuck, other than stephanie meyer types, is making a great career as a writer? i hear you gotta teach and preach and all the rest, just like JCO, in nearly all cases.
It’s important to remember that most people still aren’t of the internet, even if they’re on it. The idea of using Dr. Google to solve dilemmas, rather than simply to locate websites they already know they’re looking for, doesn’t occur to a lot of people.
It’s important to remember that most people still aren’t of the internet, even if they’re on it. The idea of using Dr. Google to solve dilemmas, rather than simply to locate websites they already know they’re looking for, doesn’t occur to a lot of people.
That’s what I was thinking.
This one feels quite ridiculous, too:
“A community of writers at the same stage of their career”
Really?
That’s what I was thinking.
This one feels quite ridiculous, too:
“A community of writers at the same stage of their career”
Really?
then again, paying for this course would require an entirely different level of stupidity / lack of street smarts, so maybe that isn’t relevant
then again, paying for this course would require an entirely different level of stupidity / lack of street smarts, so maybe that isn’t relevant
I am so fucking happy a person like Justin Taylor can just honestly, clearly express why he enjoyed the MFA.
We need more of that. No didactic sheep-clothes or huge break-down of Carver or talks about debt or any of what is most often blabbering nonsense. The anit-MFA. It seems the MFA conversation is always energy from the anti.
Go MFA or not. Who cares? But I like how Justin just simply says what he, one person, got from it.
So thanks.
I am so fucking happy a person like Justin Taylor can just honestly, clearly express why he enjoyed the MFA.
We need more of that. No didactic sheep-clothes or huge break-down of Carver or talks about debt or any of what is most often blabbering nonsense. The anit-MFA. It seems the MFA conversation is always energy from the anti.
Go MFA or not. Who cares? But I like how Justin just simply says what he, one person, got from it.
So thanks.
the only thing more disingenuous than then this service are the responses here. as though no one here would need or appreciate or use a site that aggregated data not widely available on mfa websites. as though no one here would need or want a community of applicants within which to get answered questions that cant get answered otherwise. as though justin taylor or anyone didn’t pay through the teeth for an undergraduate degree in which well paid professors gave justin taylor feedback on his poetry or fiction or whatever of exactly the kind i could get with a private review of my work now. people who write in a vacuum write crap. people who apply to graduate school in a vacuum have much less success and get less funding or don’t get in anywhere. i could care less if some poet or writer or whatever who’s been out of school for a long time pays another poet or writer or whatever a couple hundred bucks to look at their work the way professors do for pampered undergrads with the money to pay a hundred grand in tuition. 1100 bucks is an insane price for the sort of attention thats actually being offered here. but a fraction of that to get some guidance, i don’t see an issue there. as long as no one is promising that their advice gets you in somewhere, which no one seems to be doing, or promising that an mfa leads directly to a job, which no one seems to be doing, i think you guys should just stand down and stop posturing for one another. the its-all-so-simple schtick is only convincing for someone who has NEVER gone through the process. what’s hilarious is that steps two and three of justin taylor’s prescription were basically impossible before some of these new online sites came along. the programs didn’t advertise funding and picking schools was total guesswork. now there’s tons of free info about every program online which the programs didnt put online themselves and if you need the sort of feedback justin taylor got for his poetry or fiction or whatever because he could afford a hundred grand in tuition, well, yay for you, you can get it for a couple hundred bucks now. BIG DEAL. get a grip people. bunch of fakers is what you are.
the only thing more disingenuous than then this service are the responses here. as though no one here would need or appreciate or use a site that aggregated data not widely available on mfa websites. as though no one here would need or want a community of applicants within which to get answered questions that cant get answered otherwise. as though justin taylor or anyone didn’t pay through the teeth for an undergraduate degree in which well paid professors gave justin taylor feedback on his poetry or fiction or whatever of exactly the kind i could get with a private review of my work now. people who write in a vacuum write crap. people who apply to graduate school in a vacuum have much less success and get less funding or don’t get in anywhere. i could care less if some poet or writer or whatever who’s been out of school for a long time pays another poet or writer or whatever a couple hundred bucks to look at their work the way professors do for pampered undergrads with the money to pay a hundred grand in tuition. 1100 bucks is an insane price for the sort of attention thats actually being offered here. but a fraction of that to get some guidance, i don’t see an issue there. as long as no one is promising that their advice gets you in somewhere, which no one seems to be doing, or promising that an mfa leads directly to a job, which no one seems to be doing, i think you guys should just stand down and stop posturing for one another. the its-all-so-simple schtick is only convincing for someone who has NEVER gone through the process. what’s hilarious is that steps two and three of justin taylor’s prescription were basically impossible before some of these new online sites came along. the programs didn’t advertise funding and picking schools was total guesswork. now there’s tons of free info about every program online which the programs didnt put online themselves and if you need the sort of feedback justin taylor got for his poetry or fiction or whatever because he could afford a hundred grand in tuition, well, yay for you, you can get it for a couple hundred bucks now. BIG DEAL. get a grip people. bunch of fakers is what you are.
not every degree program costs 100k, dude. certainly not every undergrad program. and that may seem like nitpicking, but I mean, the difference between 40k and 100k is pretty big.
not every degree program costs 100k, dude. certainly not every undergrad program. and that may seem like nitpicking, but I mean, the difference between 40k and 100k is pretty big.
This is the same journal that will “critique” your manuscript in 15 minutes for something like $25. The “critiquer,” an editor at “One Story,” works a full day shift offering “tips” for getting out of the slush pile (i.e, tips for getting out of One Story’s slushpile…if only you pay them $25 dollars and make sure to connect this ‘service’ to a subscription renewal down the road).
This is the same journal that will “critique” your manuscript in 15 minutes for something like $25. The “critiquer,” an editor at “One Story,” works a full day shift offering “tips” for getting out of the slush pile (i.e, tips for getting out of One Story’s slushpile…if only you pay them $25 dollars and make sure to connect this ‘service’ to a subscription renewal down the road).
i’m forty two and hoping to do an mfa. you tell me, who is going to have the advantage, justin taylor, who spent, fine, forty thousand on his college, unlikely that little), to get some bigwig novelist or poet or whatever to read and comment on his stuff for four year so his portfolio was nice and tight or me, who has had no feedback on my fiction. would i pay 1100 no way, but i can’t afford to go to an unfunded program so if someone is offering feedback for a few hundred and its personalized and extensive and whatnot uh, yeah, i’m taking that. and i’m thankful to whoever offers that. but you twentysomethings who just treat your college workshops like they never happened and like you didn’t pay thousands and thousands of dollars for the privilege of being in them and then criticize us older folks who need to find other ways to get feedback need to take two steps back. AGAIN unless you can point to false advertising, which no one here is, you guys need to get some perspective. life gets complicated when you’re older than 21 or 22 or 23 or whatever, and it seems everyone here is coming from a very privileged perspective
i’m forty two and hoping to do an mfa. you tell me, who is going to have the advantage, justin taylor, who spent, fine, forty thousand on his college, unlikely that little), to get some bigwig novelist or poet or whatever to read and comment on his stuff for four year so his portfolio was nice and tight or me, who has had no feedback on my fiction. would i pay 1100 no way, but i can’t afford to go to an unfunded program so if someone is offering feedback for a few hundred and its personalized and extensive and whatnot uh, yeah, i’m taking that. and i’m thankful to whoever offers that. but you twentysomethings who just treat your college workshops like they never happened and like you didn’t pay thousands and thousands of dollars for the privilege of being in them and then criticize us older folks who need to find other ways to get feedback need to take two steps back. AGAIN unless you can point to false advertising, which no one here is, you guys need to get some perspective. life gets complicated when you’re older than 21 or 22 or 23 or whatever, and it seems everyone here is coming from a very privileged perspective
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, just think it’s unfair to say that anyone that has a college degree must have had a bunch of money to throw around, etc.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, just think it’s unfair to say that anyone that has a college degree must have had a bunch of money to throw around, etc.
Not sure your logic works, Tiger. I’m pretty sure Justin didn’t pay 40K so that he could get “advice on how to get into an MFA program.” He likely paid 40K for a four year undergraduate education. His MFA classes were probably a “tiny fraction” of his overall coursework.
Also, most people don’t just plop down 40K for an undergrad education out of their pockets–they have to take out loans.
Not sure your logic works, Tiger. I’m pretty sure Justin didn’t pay 40K so that he could get “advice on how to get into an MFA program.” He likely paid 40K for a four year undergraduate education. His MFA classes were probably a “tiny fraction” of his overall coursework.
Also, most people don’t just plop down 40K for an undergrad education out of their pockets–they have to take out loans.
point taken but really neither the specific amount of money nor the financial wellbeing of the writer is what matters here. what matters is that you guys spend thousands of dollars on college workshops and call it an investment in your future, better job and so on, and in the same way why cant i pay a fraction of that to get the same kind of feedback NOT for a job but to have a better shot at a funded mfa if the feedback is as helpful as the feedback you guys presumably many of you got in college. these things are not automatically scams and the derision shown toward them IS from a place of privilege. if the price is under 1000 and the feedback is strong and legit and no false promises are made there is NO problem with this. i have seen friends in my fiction reading group go to older novelists and get mentored one on one for a short time for a fee, many writers do this on the side and there is nothing wrong with it. again what i object to in this particular case is the cost and that the services actually are way less comprehensive than other services out there in realtime or web
point taken but really neither the specific amount of money nor the financial wellbeing of the writer is what matters here. what matters is that you guys spend thousands of dollars on college workshops and call it an investment in your future, better job and so on, and in the same way why cant i pay a fraction of that to get the same kind of feedback NOT for a job but to have a better shot at a funded mfa if the feedback is as helpful as the feedback you guys presumably many of you got in college. these things are not automatically scams and the derision shown toward them IS from a place of privilege. if the price is under 1000 and the feedback is strong and legit and no false promises are made there is NO problem with this. i have seen friends in my fiction reading group go to older novelists and get mentored one on one for a short time for a fee, many writers do this on the side and there is nothing wrong with it. again what i object to in this particular case is the cost and that the services actually are way less comprehensive than other services out there in realtime or web
Whoa, tiger. Do you even know what you’re talking about?
All it takes to get an MFA is about 20-40 dollars (application) fee and kick-ass to maybe kick-ass writing sample.
Really not that hard to get together on those two, can we agree? Might take a year of serious reading/writing and then cut two lawns.
Most programs will FUND YOU.
If you are in MFA debt, you fucked up.
Whoa, tiger. Do you even know what you’re talking about?
All it takes to get an MFA is about 20-40 dollars (application) fee and kick-ass to maybe kick-ass writing sample.
Really not that hard to get together on those two, can we agree? Might take a year of serious reading/writing and then cut two lawns.
Most programs will FUND YOU.
If you are in MFA debt, you fucked up.
michael, you and i know that a creative writing track undergrad can leave college having taken four or five semesters worth of workshops. and you and i know that that means having access to four or five individual profs in terms of working on a creative portfolio. those profs make a bundle. most colleges these days cost way more than 40K over four years. i don’t care if only a fraction of one’s classes are in creative writing that is still a chunk of time and professors attention being PAID FOR. and that feedback helps one improve ones portfolio. if you graduated from college twenty years ago thats not an option. what would you do? justin taylor says ‘write in a vacuum’ more or less or maybe he thinks me going to my buddy and saying is this fiction any good is the same as going to salman rushdie or whoever i don’t care who but a published novelist teaching at a college. well if so, justin taylor should pay my buddy tuition if there’s no difference. point is, you are getting my point. i said that this 1100 thing blows, didn’t i? partly because the emphasis seems to be really generalized advice not focused on the work. but if someone said to me okay, five hundred and i’ll look at your whole portfolio and we;ll go one on one, yes, that is worth it. and yes, given that tuition for each college course is usually between 500 and several thousand dollars as you well know, it is AMAZING that there should be this criticism. again, its because you guys don’t acknowledge the opportunities you had as opportunities
michael, you and i know that a creative writing track undergrad can leave college having taken four or five semesters worth of workshops. and you and i know that that means having access to four or five individual profs in terms of working on a creative portfolio. those profs make a bundle. most colleges these days cost way more than 40K over four years. i don’t care if only a fraction of one’s classes are in creative writing that is still a chunk of time and professors attention being PAID FOR. and that feedback helps one improve ones portfolio. if you graduated from college twenty years ago thats not an option. what would you do? justin taylor says ‘write in a vacuum’ more or less or maybe he thinks me going to my buddy and saying is this fiction any good is the same as going to salman rushdie or whoever i don’t care who but a published novelist teaching at a college. well if so, justin taylor should pay my buddy tuition if there’s no difference. point is, you are getting my point. i said that this 1100 thing blows, didn’t i? partly because the emphasis seems to be really generalized advice not focused on the work. but if someone said to me okay, five hundred and i’ll look at your whole portfolio and we;ll go one on one, yes, that is worth it. and yes, given that tuition for each college course is usually between 500 and several thousand dollars as you well know, it is AMAZING that there should be this criticism. again, its because you guys don’t acknowledge the opportunities you had as opportunities
A place of privilege? Are you kidding me?
If you can afford to drop a couple thousand dollars on this service, then you can certainly afford to take out low-interest loans to earn a college degree–an actual commodity.
Sorry, but I don’t think you can compare this service to paying for a BA degree. Most people don’t enter college with the idea to get a four year degree so that they can get into an MFA program and become a published writer. That’s not how it works. People attend college because any degree increases one’s chances of employment, whether it be in creative or exercise science. The person you have in mind would’ve likely attended college no matter what, and a college education is a four year, academically rigorous process that is a heck of a lot more than just attending some panels and getting “advice.” Now, you might argue that it’s a privilege to attend college, and I won’t argue with you, but I seriously doubt that this workshop in NYC is going to attract a bunch of underprivileged people. Please.
No one is suggesting that you can’t pony up for the service, either. Some just think the service is a bit exploitative, esp. when its tied to a literary journal that needs as many dreamers to subscribe as possible.
A place of privilege? Are you kidding me?
If you can afford to drop a couple thousand dollars on this service, then you can certainly afford to take out low-interest loans to earn a college degree–an actual commodity.
Sorry, but I don’t think you can compare this service to paying for a BA degree. Most people don’t enter college with the idea to get a four year degree so that they can get into an MFA program and become a published writer. That’s not how it works. People attend college because any degree increases one’s chances of employment, whether it be in creative or exercise science. The person you have in mind would’ve likely attended college no matter what, and a college education is a four year, academically rigorous process that is a heck of a lot more than just attending some panels and getting “advice.” Now, you might argue that it’s a privilege to attend college, and I won’t argue with you, but I seriously doubt that this workshop in NYC is going to attract a bunch of underprivileged people. Please.
No one is suggesting that you can’t pony up for the service, either. Some just think the service is a bit exploitative, esp. when its tied to a literary journal that needs as many dreamers to subscribe as possible.
Tiger I will get you into an MFA program in one year. It will costs you $500 bucks and I have a money back guarantee.
I’ll hold your check for one year.
Come on,
Just email me.
I READ grad school apps as part of my job.
1. Have a strong writing sample.
2. See # 1
Tiger I will get you into an MFA program in one year. It will costs you $500 bucks and I have a money back guarantee.
I’ll hold your check for one year.
Come on,
Just email me.
I READ grad school apps as part of my job.
1. Have a strong writing sample.
2. See # 1
I am kidding on the above. I will send you 505 dollars if you send me 500.
But really.
Just write well.
Things will happen.
uh sean, we were talking about undergrad debt. read again. undergrads pay thousands in tuition and part of what theyre paying for is the sort of mentoring you guys now act like is an abomination or whatever. MFA application fees are usually 75 or more (if you think 20 you have NEVER applied! and with acceptance rates what they are (which we only know about because of these sites you guys also seem to scorn somehow) i’m obviously going to apply to 10 programs at least. people i know have spend over a thousand applying to programs EASY. don’t forget transcript costs and so on, too. how does a writing sample get kick-ass, sean? Because justin taylor traveled to a desert island and said, i will pen a kickass sample? er, no.. he went to college and probably worked with people who knew more than he did or does. if you think MFA apps are 20 dollars and a kickass writing sample magically appears because you mowed a LAWN then young man you seriously do not know what you’re talking about and i would recommend a service like the one above- EVEN at that price!
I am kidding on the above. I will send you 505 dollars if you send me 500.
But really.
Just write well.
Things will happen.
uh sean, we were talking about undergrad debt. read again. undergrads pay thousands in tuition and part of what theyre paying for is the sort of mentoring you guys now act like is an abomination or whatever. MFA application fees are usually 75 or more (if you think 20 you have NEVER applied! and with acceptance rates what they are (which we only know about because of these sites you guys also seem to scorn somehow) i’m obviously going to apply to 10 programs at least. people i know have spend over a thousand applying to programs EASY. don’t forget transcript costs and so on, too. how does a writing sample get kick-ass, sean? Because justin taylor traveled to a desert island and said, i will pen a kickass sample? er, no.. he went to college and probably worked with people who knew more than he did or does. if you think MFA apps are 20 dollars and a kickass writing sample magically appears because you mowed a LAWN then young man you seriously do not know what you’re talking about and i would recommend a service like the one above- EVEN at that price!
Sean, I think he’s talking about an undergrad degree that will give the MFA applicant access to writers to help with the MFA application.
Though, I have to slightly disagree with you on the MFA debt issue, as many of the MFA stipends aren’t enough to live on (many are like 8-10K a year).
Sean, I think he’s talking about an undergrad degree that will give the MFA applicant access to writers to help with the MFA application.
Though, I have to slightly disagree with you on the MFA debt issue, as many of the MFA stipends aren’t enough to live on (many are like 8-10K a year).
okay, michael, please read what i said- i don’t think it was unclear. i said i would pay 500 dollars, that i DON’T like the service above, and that i am 42. i have a college degree. that was twenty years ago. i am saying that i plan on spending 1000 or more to apply to programs, and that the difference between getting funded or not is either a) going to an mfa or not, or b) tens of thousands of dollars! so yeah, 500 is worth it.
but look, i don’t mean to be mean here. i’m just saying, when i was in college (and still) you spend hundreds per class, right? these days maybe over 1000 per course. in fiction you’re paying that money- for that one course i mean- to get workshopped two or three times and talk to a prof after class about your writing. in light of all this, if someone comes to me and says, i have a terminal degree in your field and i will work with you one on one specifically re the poems you’re going to use to apply to an MFA, and you’re a nontraditional student, and nothing false is being promised, and its 500 dollars, why should i scrape that guys nose off his face like you guys seem to suggest? jesus i would be thankful!
okay, michael, please read what i said- i don’t think it was unclear. i said i would pay 500 dollars, that i DON’T like the service above, and that i am 42. i have a college degree. that was twenty years ago. i am saying that i plan on spending 1000 or more to apply to programs, and that the difference between getting funded or not is either a) going to an mfa or not, or b) tens of thousands of dollars! so yeah, 500 is worth it.
but look, i don’t mean to be mean here. i’m just saying, when i was in college (and still) you spend hundreds per class, right? these days maybe over 1000 per course. in fiction you’re paying that money- for that one course i mean- to get workshopped two or three times and talk to a prof after class about your writing. in light of all this, if someone comes to me and says, i have a terminal degree in your field and i will work with you one on one specifically re the poems you’re going to use to apply to an MFA, and you’re a nontraditional student, and nothing false is being promised, and its 500 dollars, why should i scrape that guys nose off his face like you guys seem to suggest? jesus i would be thankful!
Sorry about that, tiger. Good point. I didn’t see the undergrad point. I apologize.
I’m not a young man. But thanks.
Tiger, you have to swing the bat, son (or dad?). I’ve never hit a ball I didn’t swing at.
As for the money spent on applications, OK, 75 bucks. X 10. How much do you want an MFA? You seem a serious person. You really want it, right? Since I worked full-time as a yard-cutter for many, many summers, I say cut yards for a month.
You are now ready to apply.
Ok. Next step.
I don’t know Justin. So leave him out. I know me, a little. Here is how you write a “maybe kick-ass” writing sample.
Write the very best two fiction stories you can write.
Burn them.
Write two more.
Burn.
Write 10 more.
Pick the best two.
Burn.
Write two more.
Revise them.
Revise them.
Send them to 10 MFA programs.
You will get into 2 of the 10.
Pick the one that pays you.
Sorry about that, tiger. Good point. I didn’t see the undergrad point. I apologize.
I’m not a young man. But thanks.
Tiger, you have to swing the bat, son (or dad?). I’ve never hit a ball I didn’t swing at.
As for the money spent on applications, OK, 75 bucks. X 10. How much do you want an MFA? You seem a serious person. You really want it, right? Since I worked full-time as a yard-cutter for many, many summers, I say cut yards for a month.
You are now ready to apply.
Ok. Next step.
I don’t know Justin. So leave him out. I know me, a little. Here is how you write a “maybe kick-ass” writing sample.
Write the very best two fiction stories you can write.
Burn them.
Write two more.
Burn.
Write 10 more.
Pick the best two.
Burn.
Write two more.
Revise them.
Revise them.
Send them to 10 MFA programs.
You will get into 2 of the 10.
Pick the one that pays you.
sean, of course i agree hard work is 95% of this or more. but- acceptance rates at top programs are 5 percent, all things being equal you apply to 20 and get into 1. but that said, obviously there’s no point in applying if you think all things are equal, ie one has to work one’s butt off. i agree! but- but- doesn’t there come a point where it’s reasonable to say, i want someone to look at this who knows more than i do, i want feedback. heck, that’s why we apply to mfa programs, in part! we want feedback! and why undergrads take creative writing workshops! so i’m just saying that paying a reasonable amount for that kind of feedback, IF you can’t get it from an undergrad prof or don’t have a famous or whatever (say just very, very good) friend in the field is not unreasonable. also just want to say that way less than half the programs fully fund their students, so the idea that one applies to 10 fully funded programs (all of which will have like 3 percent acceptance rates) and one will get into even one of those WITHOUT having gotten substantial feedback on one’s sample.. well, i just don’t think that’s gonna happen.
sean, of course i agree hard work is 95% of this or more. but- acceptance rates at top programs are 5 percent, all things being equal you apply to 20 and get into 1. but that said, obviously there’s no point in applying if you think all things are equal, ie one has to work one’s butt off. i agree! but- but- doesn’t there come a point where it’s reasonable to say, i want someone to look at this who knows more than i do, i want feedback. heck, that’s why we apply to mfa programs, in part! we want feedback! and why undergrads take creative writing workshops! so i’m just saying that paying a reasonable amount for that kind of feedback, IF you can’t get it from an undergrad prof or don’t have a famous or whatever (say just very, very good) friend in the field is not unreasonable. also just want to say that way less than half the programs fully fund their students, so the idea that one applies to 10 fully funded programs (all of which will have like 3 percent acceptance rates) and one will get into even one of those WITHOUT having gotten substantial feedback on one’s sample.. well, i just don’t think that’s gonna happen.
tiger, when you do plan to apply? have you figurd out a list of school? im just curious
tiger, when you do plan to apply? have you figurd out a list of school? im just curious
ryan, i will be applying next year. no list of schools yet but i will say that i have found the resources online very, very helpful. just looking at the programs own websites like justin suggested- i don’t know, many of these MFA websites are really atrocious and you can’t find ANY of the info you really need
ryan, i will be applying next year. no list of schools yet but i will say that i have found the resources online very, very helpful. just looking at the programs own websites like justin suggested- i don’t know, many of these MFA websites are really atrocious and you can’t find ANY of the info you really need
OK, you’re pretty much fixed in what you think at this point, so I will quit wasting words.
This will be my last reply on this post, so go.
Spend the money. I hope the experience is great and you get your MFA where you want to study.
I just think this type of thinking feeds these machines. Dr. Phil is what pops in my head.
You don’t need the feedback you think you need, I feel.
I am assuming at age 42 you have read your ass off. So forget that.
Now write your ass off for a sample.
Fuck all your stats. That % stuff is bothering me. Leave that behind. You are predicting your own failure? Fuck that.
Three kinds of lies: Lies. Damn lies. Statistics.
Right?
Clean your mind of stats.
Spend one year writing the best sample you can write. A full year.
And you will be funded in a program. Good luck after that.
I like your verve though.
I like it enough to say you can most likely do whatever you want.
So go.
OK, you’re pretty much fixed in what you think at this point, so I will quit wasting words.
This will be my last reply on this post, so go.
Spend the money. I hope the experience is great and you get your MFA where you want to study.
I just think this type of thinking feeds these machines. Dr. Phil is what pops in my head.
You don’t need the feedback you think you need, I feel.
I am assuming at age 42 you have read your ass off. So forget that.
Now write your ass off for a sample.
Fuck all your stats. That % stuff is bothering me. Leave that behind. You are predicting your own failure? Fuck that.
Three kinds of lies: Lies. Damn lies. Statistics.
Right?
Clean your mind of stats.
Spend one year writing the best sample you can write. A full year.
And you will be funded in a program. Good luck after that.
I like your verve though.
I like it enough to say you can most likely do whatever you want.
So go.
good luck man. defintely email sean. or you can email me if you want ot talk more? ryan dot p dot call at gmail dot com
good luck man. defintely email sean. or you can email me if you want ot talk more? ryan dot p dot call at gmail dot com
Oh and you can email me anytime for sure.
I will help you all I can, Tiger.
Oh and you can email me anytime for sure.
I will help you all I can, Tiger.
small anecdote:
sure, i got an undergraduate degree in creative writing. BUT– the two stories in my writing portfolio were ones I’d never submitted to a workshop. I picked them because the were the tighter/most-polish/most-frequently-revised/what-have-you. I ended up getting into two of the six programs I applied to.
POINT: I get what you’re saying, especially since One Story’s price is cheaper than some of the bigger writing seminars (and credits, at some institutions). But there’s no guarantee the advice you’d be getting anywhere is anything short of bullshit. Like Roxane (and you, in some instances) pointed out, all of these places are businesses.
Sean’s right: write, and write well. You might be better off exhausting the time and energy you’d spend at one of these workshops or seminars or websites on some “kick-ass” stories.
small anecdote:
sure, i got an undergraduate degree in creative writing. BUT– the two stories in my writing portfolio were ones I’d never submitted to a workshop. I picked them because the were the tighter/most-polish/most-frequently-revised/what-have-you. I ended up getting into two of the six programs I applied to.
POINT: I get what you’re saying, especially since One Story’s price is cheaper than some of the bigger writing seminars (and credits, at some institutions). But there’s no guarantee the advice you’d be getting anywhere is anything short of bullshit. Like Roxane (and you, in some instances) pointed out, all of these places are businesses.
Sean’s right: write, and write well. You might be better off exhausting the time and energy you’d spend at one of these workshops or seminars or websites on some “kick-ass” stories.
“Dear Sirs: I am the master of no art.” –Ted Berrigan, in a note to the University of Tulsa, rejecting his MA diploma.
(In other words, I like what you’re saying here.)
“Dear Sirs: I am the master of no art.” –Ted Berrigan, in a note to the University of Tulsa, rejecting his MA diploma.
(In other words, I like what you’re saying here.)
mark, i hear you. but i look at it this way.. imagine a freshman in college who wants to be a writer- i don’t mean in the flaky way, i mean they love writing and just want to do it well and do it their whole life. would you honestly tell that young writer not to take any workshops, or just go it alone? i feel like until we can all pass that test, can say to that person no workshops and mentors are not necessary just write and everything will be fine you will get into an MFA, it just feels like talk here. think about the people you know who write poetry and fiction and proudly say they have never taken a class or shown their work to anyone who knew anything about poetry or fiction. don’t they all pretty much stink as writers? or the vast majority? sure, getting private feedback might be helpful or not- might be valuable or not- but the same’s true for an MFA, and for any prof in an MFA, and for any undergrad program with a creative writing track, or anything in life, right? in the big scheme 500 bucks for a person in my situation, if it could possibly help me get into a funded program and save tens of thousands of dollars- and certainly the people i’d be working with in such a situation would have to, by definition, have gotten into and graduated from programs themselves.. well, it just seems worth it. i respect everyone’s opinion, i just hope that the opinion of me and people like me can be respected also. thanks to everyone here for your thoughts
mark, i hear you. but i look at it this way.. imagine a freshman in college who wants to be a writer- i don’t mean in the flaky way, i mean they love writing and just want to do it well and do it their whole life. would you honestly tell that young writer not to take any workshops, or just go it alone? i feel like until we can all pass that test, can say to that person no workshops and mentors are not necessary just write and everything will be fine you will get into an MFA, it just feels like talk here. think about the people you know who write poetry and fiction and proudly say they have never taken a class or shown their work to anyone who knew anything about poetry or fiction. don’t they all pretty much stink as writers? or the vast majority? sure, getting private feedback might be helpful or not- might be valuable or not- but the same’s true for an MFA, and for any prof in an MFA, and for any undergrad program with a creative writing track, or anything in life, right? in the big scheme 500 bucks for a person in my situation, if it could possibly help me get into a funded program and save tens of thousands of dollars- and certainly the people i’d be working with in such a situation would have to, by definition, have gotten into and graduated from programs themselves.. well, it just seems worth it. i respect everyone’s opinion, i just hope that the opinion of me and people like me can be respected also. thanks to everyone here for your thoughts
i’ve been thinking about this and i appreciate tiger’s viewpoint. i mean, if you are ready to put down 1100 for this workshop then i bet you are going to learn a whole lot you didn’t know before. in that sense, if you got an extra 1100, it may be a good investment to make. in the end though, and being a bigtime diy-er, i’d side with sean et al. it’s going to take a lot of time and effort–writing and meeting people and talking to people and researching the google–to learn this stuff on your own, but won’t the one story thing just be the start of doing all that anyway? the workshop will be a place to start if you have no idea of where to start from, but one week’s really not going to do much more than that. anyway, this all comes from the place of not having an 1100 to spend. if i had that cash no problem, maybe i’d think differently.
i’ve been thinking about this and i appreciate tiger’s viewpoint. i mean, if you are ready to put down 1100 for this workshop then i bet you are going to learn a whole lot you didn’t know before. in that sense, if you got an extra 1100, it may be a good investment to make. in the end though, and being a bigtime diy-er, i’d side with sean et al. it’s going to take a lot of time and effort–writing and meeting people and talking to people and researching the google–to learn this stuff on your own, but won’t the one story thing just be the start of doing all that anyway? the workshop will be a place to start if you have no idea of where to start from, but one week’s really not going to do much more than that. anyway, this all comes from the place of not having an 1100 to spend. if i had that cash no problem, maybe i’d think differently.
A couple of things to add here:
1) Tiger, have you considered attending a summer writing conference? I know this post started with the One Story MFA thingy (I also received the e-mail and immediately suspected Seth Abramson ), but if you have a problem with their logic and goals, there’s also Sewanee and Tin House and the Kenyon Review and many, many others. Tin House’s program had a panel at AWP, and they talked about how they specifically scheduled their conference for a single week in order to lure in real working people and not the privileged few like you seem to be worried about.
2) Why not pick up Tom Kealey’s Creative Writing MFA Handbook? It’s under twenty bucks, and even if it’s a little outdated, it’ll probably really help you come up with a list of schools.
3) I’ll be finishing my MFA at the University of Pittsburgh in two weeks, and I can absolutely assure you that not every student is a doe-eyed twenty-two year old straight out of the undergrad workshop system. MFA students come from all types of backgrounds, and our program director, Chuck Kinder, often looks for people who have actually lived a life. It sounds like you’re really committed to getting into a program. That’s great. Why not try and link up with a writing group in your town, or if that’s not possible, online? Why not contact a literary journal and ask to be a reader in your free time? That way you get to see the work that’s floating around out there and make valuable connections. In time, I’m sure some of the editors would be willing to check out your sample. Ask journals to do book reviews. Go to local readings if there’s any near you. Find people who are serious about writing and make connections with them. Add to the discussion here. All of these things will help you find serious readers for your work.
A couple of things to add here:
1) Tiger, have you considered attending a summer writing conference? I know this post started with the One Story MFA thingy (I also received the e-mail and immediately suspected Seth Abramson ), but if you have a problem with their logic and goals, there’s also Sewanee and Tin House and the Kenyon Review and many, many others. Tin House’s program had a panel at AWP, and they talked about how they specifically scheduled their conference for a single week in order to lure in real working people and not the privileged few like you seem to be worried about.
2) Why not pick up Tom Kealey’s Creative Writing MFA Handbook? It’s under twenty bucks, and even if it’s a little outdated, it’ll probably really help you come up with a list of schools.
3) I’ll be finishing my MFA at the University of Pittsburgh in two weeks, and I can absolutely assure you that not every student is a doe-eyed twenty-two year old straight out of the undergrad workshop system. MFA students come from all types of backgrounds, and our program director, Chuck Kinder, often looks for people who have actually lived a life. It sounds like you’re really committed to getting into a program. That’s great. Why not try and link up with a writing group in your town, or if that’s not possible, online? Why not contact a literary journal and ask to be a reader in your free time? That way you get to see the work that’s floating around out there and make valuable connections. In time, I’m sure some of the editors would be willing to check out your sample. Ask journals to do book reviews. Go to local readings if there’s any near you. Find people who are serious about writing and make connections with them. Add to the discussion here. All of these things will help you find serious readers for your work.
I don’t know. In England there are all sorts of courses offered for things like this (and especially for preparing students for applications to study law, etc. at university) which can cost £500-1000, or $1000-2000 in USD. Every teacher and professor I’ve ever truly respected has warned against them, saying that they’re a waste of time and money.
I can only speak for the UK, but over here, if you want to apply successfully to a course of this kind, you need either to have the brains/talent already or to be willing to do a lot of work. Even with the talent, you need to do a lot of work, but without it you need to do far more. The entry percentages are not really relevant. They’re so low because most people who apply are shit, lazy or simply not very bright. Those people would never be accepted anyway, so they shouldn’t be factored into your considerations.
Say, for example, that as many as 30% of the applicants could actually realistically hope to get onto the course. That 3% or 5% you’re quoting is low, but that’s out of all applicants. Taken only from the contenders, those figures become 10% and 16%. Not too bad.
I don’t know. In England there are all sorts of courses offered for things like this (and especially for preparing students for applications to study law, etc. at university) which can cost £500-1000, or $1000-2000 in USD. Every teacher and professor I’ve ever truly respected has warned against them, saying that they’re a waste of time and money.
I can only speak for the UK, but over here, if you want to apply successfully to a course of this kind, you need either to have the brains/talent already or to be willing to do a lot of work. Even with the talent, you need to do a lot of work, but without it you need to do far more. The entry percentages are not really relevant. They’re so low because most people who apply are shit, lazy or simply not very bright. Those people would never be accepted anyway, so they shouldn’t be factored into your considerations.
Say, for example, that as many as 30% of the applicants could actually realistically hope to get onto the course. That 3% or 5% you’re quoting is low, but that’s out of all applicants. Taken only from the contenders, those figures become 10% and 16%. Not too bad.
MFA? “My Friends Association? If I only had the money.
MFA? “My Friends Association? If I only had the money.
A breakdown of the financial implications of an MFA
the financial implications is that your going to be poor
A breakdown of the financial implications of an MFA
the financial implications is that your going to be poor
Extension courses are a great resource for feedback on your writing, if you’re lucky enough to live near a school that offers them. They’re often taught by MFAs (you’re looking at your future job prospects) and include a community of writers at the same stage ; ) for a fraction of the price onestory is charging.
I took no creative writing classes as an undergrad, because I was to stubborn to take advantage of an obvious resource, but that’s another story. I took a few extension classes and reached out to a favorite writer for advice, via fan mail. Applied to 10 MFAs, got rejected from a bunch. Went to Iowa, with $, no debt, great experience. What Justin said above.
Point being, it can be done by someone with no connections and no special consultants.
Of course, once you’re in, people will accuse you of belonging to some secret cabal.
Extension courses are a great resource for feedback on your writing, if you’re lucky enough to live near a school that offers them. They’re often taught by MFAs (you’re looking at your future job prospects) and include a community of writers at the same stage ; ) for a fraction of the price onestory is charging.
I took no creative writing classes as an undergrad, because I was to stubborn to take advantage of an obvious resource, but that’s another story. I took a few extension classes and reached out to a favorite writer for advice, via fan mail. Applied to 10 MFAs, got rejected from a bunch. Went to Iowa, with $, no debt, great experience. What Justin said above.
Point being, it can be done by someone with no connections and no special consultants.
Of course, once you’re in, people will accuse you of belonging to some secret cabal.
[…] Giant has published an email that is now making the rounds, whereby One Story is attempting to fleece students for a one-week […]
[…] HTMLGIANT / Servicey: Should You Get an MFA? Find out for $1100 + Room/Board in NYC "I have no problem with capitalism or unique ways of creating profit and independent magazines have to really think outside the box to generate money. To that end, today I got an e-mail from One Story about their intimate writer’s workshop that will answer the age-old question: Should I get an MFA?" […]
YOU SAY SO LITTLE.
YOU SAY SO LITTLE.
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