December 1st, 2010 / 5:30 pm
Random
Roxane Gay
Random
Flatmancrooked has decided to offer Expedited Submissions where a senior editor will respond to such submissions in 14 days or fewer. The fee? $5. I understand the inclination, have definitely considered some sort of tiered submission structure, but remain uncomfortable with the idea of charging for submissions (and conversely, paying to submit). As a person who enjoys instant gratification, I like the idea of knowing the time frame within which my work will be considered. That privilege just might be worth $5 to me. Then again, I am increasingly less preoccupied with things like response times. And yet. And back and forth I go. Thoughts? Will you pay to play?
Tags: flatmanCrooked, SubMishMash, submission fees
I mean this with no disrespect, but how is Flatmancrooked big enough to do this? I could understand this route for a huge magazine getting tons of submissions and an impossible backlog and who would really pay their writers, but for a smaller indie mag? Kinda gross.
I mean this with no disrespect, but how is Flatmancrooked big enough to do this? I could understand this route for a huge magazine getting tons of submissions and an impossible backlog and who would really pay their writers, but for a smaller indie mag? Kinda gross.
I don’t like this for a number of reasons, but the big one is it doesn’t really work.
If I’m paying 5 bucks to be read, you’d better actually read the work. If you have to really read the work, that means you’re making five bucks per however long it takes to read my story. If you’re an extremely fast reader this might be sort of okay money. But also if I’m paying for the privilege I don’t think it’s reasonable to give me purely a form response unless the work is just total shit. Giving a custom response also takes time. If you’re lucky I’d estimate you could make ten dollars an hour this way. It’s probably less. And then you subtract Paypal’s or Submishmash’s take, or whatever.
I can make $20 an hour copy-editing. Probably so can the people at Flatmancrooked and any other good presses. In short, it would essentially cost me money to read submissions for anything short of hideous reading fees. Taking a fee may make us feel like practical business people, but it would generally be better business to work a little more and pay out of pocket.
Or, and I know this is crazy, we could focus on making a product for which people like paying.
When will HTMLGiant institute its tiered comment system? (with Mean Week protection).
I’m afraid I’m with Tim, and would like HTMLGIANT’s tiered system to start immediately. I wonder how much it would cost to always get the last word in any string?
Guess you can already do that if you hang around long enough.
Paying for expedited consideration at a magazine of the stature of Flatmancrooked will only bring the editors badwill. It’s bad enough when a place like Narrative, which actually pays at least, jacks prices and lines the pockets of the established by taxing the dreams of the aspiring. But to pay money just so your work will be read in a timely manner by someone who isn’t a slush reader and might have the power to actually publish it, that’s… I don’t know. Not what indie lit is supposed to be about? If the sole pleasure of a publication is the reward of visibility and perhaps, of resume-enhancement, and you pay for a greater likelihood of achieving that pleasure, the integrity of that exchange has been compromised: the journal may still take your work because they respect it, but you have given the work with a five-spot and a wink, *hoping* it improves your chances. I dunno. Feels icky to me.
This sounds like slipping the Maitre d’ some cash for a faster/better table. Give us $5 and we promise a seat with the senior editor! I think I like this even less than charging a couple bucks for electronic submissions (as more and more journals seem to be doing). I really think all unsolicited submissions deserve equal attention and it makes me uncomfortable that those capable of (or desperate enough to) pay money can circumvent the standard process. While I know the $5 doesn’t guarantee anything more than a review by a senior editor and a fast response, it does sound like a system of bribery. Not cool.
And I suppose the lit scene is small enough and people are reticent enough about paying to submit that the publication in question won’t run into the problem where they have so many people paying for expedited submissions that they get backlogged?
Roxane? I don’t like the idea so much. But I would give you at least five dollars for your next chapbook.
This is fucking bullshit.
I mean this with no disrespect, but how is Flatmancrooked big enough to do this? I could understand this route for a huge magazine getting tons of submissions and an impossible backlog and who would really pay their writers, but for a smaller indie mag? Kinda gross.
Since there will always be more writers (or at least “writers”) and stories than there are places to put them (or places that will want them) I guess it’s great business idea. But it will breed bitterness. Paying someone to reject you is masochistic, and paying someone to accept you feels disengenuous.
It depends on whether you trust them to implement the system as stated. If a senior editor will really read the submitted piece and respond with true consideration within the time frame, then it’s an interesting system–or at least a good experiment. But if they simply change the title of the first-tier readers to Senior Editor, then they’re pulling a fast one. Submission systems are already tiered anyway.
I think it’s bullshit too, but then again, the easiest way to make a living with literary writing is to cannabalize literary writers. Just look at MFA programs.
I don’t like this for a number of reasons, but the big one is it doesn’t really work.
If I’m paying 5 bucks to be read, you’d better actually read the work. If you have to really read the work, that means you’re making five bucks per however long it takes to read my story. If you’re an extremely fast reader this might be sort of okay money. But also if I’m paying for the privilege I don’t think it’s reasonable to give me purely a form response unless the work is just total shit. Giving a custom response also takes time. If you’re lucky I’d estimate you could make ten dollars an hour this way. It’s probably less. And then you subtract Paypal’s or Submishmash’s take, or whatever.
I can make $20 an hour copy-editing. Probably so can the people at Flatmancrooked and any other good presses. In short, it would essentially cost me money to read submissions for anything short of hideous reading fees. Taking a fee may make us feel like practical business people, but it would generally be better business to work a little more and pay out of pocket.
Or, and I know this is crazy, we could focus on making a product for which people like paying.
When will HTMLGiant institute its tiered comment system? (with Mean Week protection).
So long as it doesn’t interfere with the normal submission process I have no issue with it. Some would rather pay than wait.
I agree with most of what you’re saying but I think your last statement is… unnecessarily provocative. Many, many magazines are making products people should pay for. People simply don’t and I don’t think there’s some unnamed magical solution (combination of writing, writers, presentation, whatever) out there that magazine editors are missing where if they applied that solution, they’d suddenly be financially flush.
Thank you, Janey! I will work on making a chapbook forthwith!
That’s fair. My point isn’t that we can just magically summon sufficient numbers of paying readers — I certainly haven’t found a way to do this — but that people talk about charging for submissions as if it were a practical solution when if you game it out, and take concepts like opportunity cost seriously, it’s anything but. The truth is neither model works in terms of removing the necessity of indie publishers funding things they want to make out of pocket.
I don’t agree though that people “should” pay for magazines or books (unless, of course, they want to have them). I think this idea has let a lot of crappy magazines off the hook for their mediocrity: sure, nobody cares about us or anything we publish, but that’s because they don’t care about the arts, etc. They *should* give us their money. (It’s not my impression that Flatmancrooked thinks this way — quite the opposite, up to this point — but I’d like that to continue.)
I think there are a number of negative aspects here. Two of the main ones:
1) It gives the journal an incentive to respond to their regular submissions at an extra-slow rate.
2) Gratitude toward the submitter for paying will likely merit a closer/more favorable review from the staff, whether on a conscious or unconscious level.
And the dual exclamation points around a capitalized “expedited” is pretty obnoxious, right?
They should make it super-tiered. Slip in a $50-spot and order a subscription and all of your shitty haikus get published.
I think the bigger question is that Submishmash, which very quickly became the standard for submissions, has openly supported this kind of thing. They have a vested interest in charging for submissions and if it comes down to Submishmash going away or magazines charging a nominal fee, more easily justified because some of the places people respect and covet already do it…
What do you mean by this? Are the literary writers being cannibalized by the university, or are you saying established literary writers (the teachers) are cannibalizing the students?
I don’t have much of an issue here. At least there’s incentive here (a quicker response), unlike other journals that charge for submissions and ignore those pieces for a very long time.
I still can’t imagine myself making the same type of decision, and I probably wouldn’t feel inclined to take them up on this offer. But other publications are doing much worse for much higher fees.
I don’t necessarily think either of those points are true:
1) I don’t necessarily think that this means they’re respond at a slower rate than they were before. It might motivate them to read the paid submissions much quicker, but I doubt it’ll have a negative effect on the work they’re already doing.
2) No, I don’t think so. I can only speak from experience, but spending $5 on a submission seems no different than spending $6 ($7? $8?) on a journal. I never think that when I pay for a journal that I’m paying for gratitude that will lead to my acceptance. I don’t see much of a difference here.
You might be right– both of us can only assume. But I have faith in editors to be unbiased.
It’s a total horseshit move. Monetizing the slush pile means one has no readers and no ability to get grants or other modes of funding.
I’m afraid I’m with Tim, and would like HTMLGIANT’s tiered system to start immediately. I wonder how much it would cost to always get the last word in any string?
Guess you can already do that if you hang around long enough.
Paying for expedited consideration at a magazine of the stature of Flatmancrooked will only bring the editors badwill. It’s bad enough when a place like Narrative, which actually pays at least, jacks prices and lines the pockets of the established by taxing the dreams of the aspiring. But to pay money just so your work will be read in a timely manner by someone who isn’t a slush reader and might have the power to actually publish it, that’s… I don’t know. Not what indie lit is supposed to be about? If the sole pleasure of a publication is the reward of visibility and perhaps, of resume-enhancement, and you pay for a greater likelihood of achieving that pleasure, the integrity of that exchange has been compromised: the journal may still take your work because they respect it, but you have given the work with a five-spot and a wink, *hoping* it improves your chances. I dunno. Feels icky to me.
This sounds like slipping the Maitre d’ some cash for a faster/better table. Give us $5 and we promise a seat with the senior editor! I think I like this even less than charging a couple bucks for electronic submissions (as more and more journals seem to be doing). I really think all unsolicited submissions deserve equal attention and it makes me uncomfortable that those capable of (or desperate enough to) pay money can circumvent the standard process. While I know the $5 doesn’t guarantee anything more than a review by a senior editor and a fast response, it does sound like a system of bribery. Not cool.
It occurs to me that, rather than gratitude towards the submitter, paying $5 might hurt a submission’s chances–I feel like if one person paid me $5 to look at a submission and another didn’t, I would, without necessarily meaning to, take the non-payer more seriously (because they would seem to “need the publication less,” maybe? I don’t know. But it makes sense somehow…)
Even if you are a slow reader, you can get through three chapters in a weekend (and that is pushing this hypothetical to the max), and in three chapters, you have pretty much decided whether you like this book or not. Because that is what publishing is, at its core, is whether you like something enough to “run with it”. And those three chapters need not be in sequential order. That five dollars doesn’t seem too steep. And, am I crazy, or do they still offer regular non-fee based submissions? It seems the majority here is upset over an option.
Picture you’re waiting in line for a McDonalds giveaway of hamburgers. The line is long as shit. But they have a few registers open over to the right where you can pay and get your food right then. And to the right of the cashier is the sign: We have the right to refuse service to ANYONE (their capitals, not mine).
I mean, I understand the argument. But Flatman from my experience isn’t some shady enterprise, and, I mean, what’s the difference from an independent press asking for donations. At least here, you’re receiving tangible evidence of your donation in work.
Picture you’re waiting in line for a doctor to give you free treatment. The line is long as shit. But they have a few doctors available over to the right where you can pay and get your life-saving care right then.
Also, as a side note on those signs which read we have the right to refuse service to anyone, they are plainly illegal.
Having a fee-based option isn’t really an option, it is another class partition between the haves and have-nots. Nothing new of course, but more of the same bullshit that tells us that people with money and better and more important than people without money. And the more money you have the better treated you will be.
or, and this is what hit me immediately, if the editors give the 5 dollar submissions less serious consideration due to time frame issues or due to ‘hey look at this another 5 dollar person, not good enough to submit the old fashioned way’ or something equally ridiculous.
that being said, i don’t know why anyone cares. if you don’t like it, don’t pay for it. but i guess we need something to bitch about, otherwise we’ll get bored.
Yep, I was wondering that. What if everyone pays 5? Oops.
Yeah! MFA programs sukk! What a bunch of lame-o’s. These dummees who want to learn how to write and study books and shit. What a bunch of noobs. Edumakation is for suckers. Go git a job like evryone else. Fuggin’ elite prix. Who do they think they are! Books are for losers!
Does this mean that when I give a homeless dude a fiver he goes up one ‘class partition’?
bro…
I like your scenario. And I like your spirit man. But we do live in a capitalistic society (quickly becoming a capitalistic world, bleh), and complaining about a company trying to exist and find ways of revenue without becoming true whores is counter productive. Denigrating them is counter productive. What’s better is attempting to help them out and find ways of sustaining without the need for money, if it is as important to you as it seems. I can help you. Seriously. Let’s do it.I mean, check this out, I got 50 dollars to my name. I look at fees for places where they’ll have an open reading (for a book manuscript) and I’ll cringe, even if they offer a book+. Makes me sad because I can’t enter. Boohoo, right? But I understand what they gotta do to survive in the environment they’re swimming in. So I won’t throw negative energy at ’em.But those signs aren’t illegal — a business has rights just as a person does. Now, if they refuse service unfairly, such as because of your weight or skin shade or gender or because you’re homeless and smell, then we got a problem. Can’t tell me some guy/girl who walks in cursing the cashier out, picking their nose and placing it on the counter means I still gotta give that dickhead a burger… get outta here man.
Tadd, I think so too. As a reader, I held subs that were special in any way (recommended, or from well-known writers) to a higher standard, fairly or not. I guess I was more conscious of not wanting to be blinded by whatever made them special.
From now until midnight (11:59pm, Dec 1, west coast time), I will pay $5 to anyone who submits to Abjective (http://www.abjective.net/info.html) if you provide a mailing address with the submission. You will receive a personal response from the seniorest editor within five days.
I really need five dollars (really) but I feel like that is the wrong reason to submit to Abjective
there is no wrong reason to submit anything anywhere
Do i get my money back if you accept my work?
Do i get a refund when you fail to respond in 14 days?
Are the 14 days normal days or business days?
What do you mean by “respond” to submissions? Is a senior editor going to send me a form letter, a quick thanks or what?
How many senior editors are at flatmancrooked?
How does flatmancrooked designate a senior editor?
How are submissions treated when an established writer like Blake Butler submits AFTER me but doesn’t pay the NOMINAL $5 fee?
What are you doing with the money generated from the NOMINAL $5 fees?
What is the minimum response time for someone who DOESN’T pay the NOMINAL $5 fee?
What is the maximum response time for someone who DOESN’T pay the NOMINAL $5 fee?
I submitted something 2 months ago and haven’t received a response. Can I now pay the NOMINAL $5 fee and have my submission responded to immediately?
Do you feel sleazy doing this?
bullshit was the first word that came to mind here, too.
Darby, I love you. I hope that’s okay.
These are good questions.
Although I get the inclination to do this, I think it’s problematic for the reason that it privileges those with discretionary funds. The recent Tin House project mitigated the potential problem by accepting manuscripts that included library receipts. I think Flatmancrooked can be more creative as well. Maybe submitters have to volunteer their time to FMC (or another lit journal) in some capacity, though what that could be I’m not sure. Responding to emails, perhaps?
i actually dont care much about what flatmancrooked is doing here, for the main reason, contrary to the tin house thing, since you brought it up and is why im replying under you, that it is just an option. tin house made it so that in order to be seen, you had to do this weird thing. FMC is just saying, here’s an option if you’d like to pay for expediency. If not, no biggy, do it they way you would’ve done it anyway.
That is a good point, Darby. I hadn’t thought of that.
it is perfectly okay, sir. ;)
I had this thought, too. Like, the five dollar rate would be for amateur suckers.
Yep, I was wondering that. What if everyone pays 5? Oops.
I’m too poor for this. U.S. Dollar / Maltese Lira, 1.3680
Well according to Duotrope.com here’s the FMC info:
Fastest: 3 days
Mean Avg: 128 days
Median: 106 days
Maximum: 396 days
Acceptance rate: 7%
7% seems high. i dont always trust duotrope’s breakdowns.
I like your scenario. And I like your spirit man. But we do live in a capitalistic society (quickly becoming a capitalistic world, bleh), and complaining about a company trying to exist and find ways of revenue without becoming true whores is counter productive. Denigrating them is counter productive. What’s better is attempting to help them out and find ways of sustaining without the need for money, if it is as important to you as it seems. I can help you. Seriously. Let’s do it.
I mean, check this out, I got 50 dollars to my name. I look at fees for places where they’ll have an open reading (for a book manuscript) and I’ll cringe, even if they offer a book+. Makes me sad because I can’t enter. Boohoo, right? But I understand what they gotta do to survive in the environment they’re swimming in. So I won’t throw negative energy at ’em.
But those signs aren’t illegal — a business has rights just as a person does. Now, if they refuse service unfairly, such as because of your weight or skin shade or gender or because you’re homeless and smell, then we got a problem. Can’t tell me some guy/girl who walks in cursing the cashier out, picking their nose and placing it on the counter means I still gotta give that dickhead a burger… get outta here man.
Oooh, great questions.
any time money and writing mix, shit gets fucked up. which is why i stick to publishing flashes on the Internet. (also cuz i’m lazy and unambitious but let’s pretend it’s for moral reasons.)
in other news, if you eat my pussy, i’ll read your short flight/long drive submission right now. (i like old-fashioned line-jumping myself.)
Doesn’t seem like a big deal, but this that journals can’t respond sooner under normal circumstances is pretty hilarious (I’ve read for 3 national journals, so I speak from experience). The reason most journals have slow response times is because many of the readers are slackers or lazy asses. No other way to put it; every staff is almost always filled with several people who only go to their slush piles once or twice a month. In most cases, if every reader just read a few things per day, response times would be much quicker, and the reading load a lighter for all of the procrastinators who approach reading submissions like waiting until the night before a deadline to start a paper.
*this idea that journals
** a lot lighter
I must say I completely agree. It’s just not that hard to stay on top of submissions. Either they are a priority for a magazine or they aren’t and its fine if they aren’t but hey, just say that.
Agreed, Roxane.
I also find that people exaggerate the number of submissions most journals receive. People act like the average lit journal receives 90 million subs a year.
The very top-tier journals get around 5-10K, but the average journal receives somewhere in the range of 800-1,500.
I’m a full-time doctoral student who teaches part-time as a TA and can still easily get through 100-150 subs a month by just reading 5-8 per day, 6 days a week.
That’s how we do it, every day, chip away. I will say though that many magazines are not exaggerating their claims of submissions. We get 350-600 submissions a month and we are tiny. In November, we received 451. I have no doubt that the big magazines are getting 20-40K submissions a year but they also have the power to enlist more readers so I am not going to cry for them.
I guess I need to double-check my figures, but I guess it doesn’t really matter since most of those journals are the Paris and Missouri Reviews of the world. Cutbank or Salamander isn’t getting those numbers. I bet you all receive more subs because you respond so quickly. Another benefit of staying on top of your pile is that you end up having more options because writers are more willing to submit.
Very true. And the options help us put together a better magazine. I have few complaints about our submission queue beyond the general stuff everyone laments.
I understand that a lot of people when rejected don’t want to report that to Duotrope. Most likely (if anything) all % of acceptance there are a bit high.
Probably they’d like to give the money to writers they solicit. Maybe they’re trying to land a big name. Maybe the editors have fees on timeshares coming due.
These are good questions. For myself, I don’t submit anywhere that requires a non-contest reading fee. And usually not even then.
you don’t like the policy? don’t submit. no problem for either you or flatmanstooped
Replying here because I don’t know how else to contact you…
Just to let you know my sophomore literature classes will be discussing “Hurt Rescued” tomorrow.
I took a sick day the other day, so the schedule is packed, but if we don’t get it in, we’ll certainly talk about it next week.
Reading through the responses, I am astounded at the lack of appreciation for the work Flatmancrooked and similar indie presses are doing. By what stretch of imagination or mathematics does one imagine they can make money this way? Go to any collection now or online site like zoetrope or fictionaut, seek out a 2500-word story. Now read it twice just to be fair. Respond to it. How long did that take?
Flatmancrooked (disclosure: they have published my work, both fiction and industry-related posts) and Opium and Dzanc — you name it — are not getting rich. Elijah and Deena are talented and intelligent and educated people who could get wonderfully paying jobs tomorrow if they wanted, if they were about money.
But no, they’d rather wade through oceans of dreck–YOUR DRECK–because maybe just maybe they might stumble upon a nugget of gold they find worthy of losing money on.
Seriously, folks. Put up or shut up. You think you can do it better, go to wordpress right now, start up an online lit mag and hang out your shingle. Tell duotrope, all the markets about it, Facebook it, tweet it.
Come back in a year. I want to hear about YOUR response time. How much fun you’re having.
Deena and Elijah and all those wonderful souls who provide us writers with space for our work deserve our praise, our support, and yes dammit, our LOVE.
(Oh, and did I mention the steak knives?)
I’m the senior editor for Flatmancrooked and thought I’d weigh in and clear some stuff up, for those of you who are expressing concerns:
1.) All expedited submissions do in fact go straight to either Elijah or I (the two most senior editors)–straight to our e-mail inboxes, in fact. The regular slush remains unchanged; stories go through our readers and associate editors and then senior editors, as they always have.
2.) We’re not making a fortune off of it by any means, and that was never the point. No one is making a salary off the expedited submissions process. Nobody gets a cut of any of it. Nada.
3.) The idea was simply to provide a way to ensure a speedy response time. We know how excruciating that four or six month turn around can be. Especially when you’ve submitted simultaneously to other places. If you don’t want to pay the $5, you’ll have the same shot you’ve always had.
4.) Submitters via the expedited route have been, as you might guess, all over the place. A lot of widely published authors that are happy to have a way to circumvent long turn arounds, and beginning writers, too.
5.) I’d just like to reiterate that none of us are rolling in it, so to speak. We stand by our publication standards as we’ve always stood by them, and $5 isn’t gonna change that. If it’s good, we’re going to publish it. If it’s not, we’re not. What it will do is get a you a quicker response.
Hope that clears up some of you guys’ concerns.
Deena
I like looking over blogs and sites where Flatmancrooked is noted and seeing this kind of response. It is encouraging. I also love the opportunity to do what I am about to do, which is answer some questions and allegations, as well as put a face to our practice.
First, I’d like to contextualize this conversation. Flatmancrooked, for a supremely small house, publishes what I consider a very reputable number of titles every year. We work very closely with our authors, do what I consider grand design, decent promotion for a house with a tiny budget, and are deeply passionate. We have a dedicated staff of editors, associate editors, interns, and designers . . . who work for free. This is what I don’t think many authors understand or know about.
We don’t publicize this because it is simply bad business to let folks know that your house doesn’t turn a big enough profit to pay their staff a decent salary. So, our staff, most of whom have been with us for years, work for the love of the work, work nights and weekends, work tirelessly, violate their day job’s rules to, of all things, promote literature. Many of them have MFA’s, have experience, but want to publish new voices, beautiful books, and work with literature about which they are passionate.
I’d like to talk about the math of our industry. Firstly, Flatmancrooked feels that we can put out give-or-take 8 books a year a do a solid job. 8 titles, total. That’s usually two journals (fiction and poetry), a novel or long manuscript, and five novellas.
The literary journals (which are typically high-design, exceedingly thick beasts) are a lost leader. We sell them at a cost that doesn’t make us enough money to turn a profit. This is because, as demonstrated by the literary community, regardless of the line-up, literary journal sales are abysmal. Those of you who are not familiar with our work may question our quality. Read our books. Our first journal, a 8.5″ square with innovative wide-margined presentation and intensively readable typographical design, had work by both Ha Jin (a National Book Award and PEN recipient) and a new translation of a Jorge Luis Borges story, out of circulation since the sixties. Two writers went on to win major awards after publication in that journal (the Pushcart, both). We promoted the hell out of that book and sold less than 1,000 copies. We still have some. You can still get one today. We get thousands of submissions for every journal and typically sell about 200-300 copies.
All of our single-author titles have a 50% royalty rate. That’s an industry 2nd (first place to do this was Harper Studio. They abandoned the practice after realizing they couldn’t make enough money as a result. They now do 30%.) The typical industry standard is exceptionally lower (about 7%). We don’t do this because we think we’re going to make our authors rich. We do this as sign of partnership with the writer’s whose work we are lucky enough to publish.
Flatmancrooked, by it’s own making, has no university affiliation (though, we’ve been approached by both a UC and Cal State), is not a non-profit (we like kids, literacy, nature, etc. but we just want to put out books with out answering to committees), and has never received a grant or large donation. We started this company with a 5k investment from a local patron. If we run into the red on a project or title, I take my money from my day job and put it into this company. We’ve been recognized in nationally syndicated news outlets (Poets and Writers, Esquire, San Fran Chron., the New Yorker) and we work out of a home office.
Enough fooling, folks. If you think we make a killing of our “Expedited” program, try it out. See if you’re rolling in it. I am in a unique position of seeing the literary community from both sides and as a writer its frustrating but as a publisher it is frightening. Print journalism, in the short form (newspapers), will not exist in 10 years. Lit journals are crumbling. I encourage you to write or talk to the editors you know and ask them, while they are laying out new fiction, asking for free design work, and putting the next issue of the journal on their credit card if they feel like this is the issue that’ll make them rich.
I don’t mean to get overly negative or hostile. My response to the criticism is this: If you don’t like our system, send your submission the standard way. It will still get read. If you need a quick response, we have an option. If you don’t like us, make sure it’s for the right reasons. We do good work, we love books, our authors, literature, we’re as broke if not more broke than you. We talk a big game but we are, like you, just trying to survive. The editor of the Paris Review (Lorin Stein) wrote in a letter to the readers in the Fall 2010 issue, “The real question (in reference to whether or not lit journals will survive the internet) is not whether journals can survive in some imagine future, but what we ourselves want and need. And when have we needed a great print journal more? Most of us spend our days in an enforced state of distraction, with nothing allowed to sink in. This ‘Review’ is designed to sink in.” What a great standard! We aspire to this. But we require the support of readers.
Lastly, I read all of the Expedited stories, personally. The rest go first to interns, then associate editors, then Deena (Senior Editor/Partner) or myself. I give everything an equal shake but I only do first reads of Expedited work and if I like it, I simply slate it for publication. That’s what you are paying for. A quickened pace.
If you’d like me to Expedite your submission for free, here’s your opportunity to get some free love:
Send your work to elijah [at] flatmancrooked [dot] com with a copy of a receipt for a book from any of the following houses: Featherproof, Pank, Hobart, or Dzanc; or any literary journal. I will plug your submission into our database and review it promptly.
Better still, I challenge every writer to buy a literary journal or book from an indie house for every submission they make to any house. Buy the journal to which you are submitting. We know most don’t we can search our email easily enough. We receive over 3,000 submission a year. If we sold a book for each submission we received, I’d be able to pay my staff.
Sincerely,
Elijah Jenkins
Executive Editor – Flatmancrooked
P.S. – Thanks for the grand discussion, Roxanne.
This is hilarious. We were writing our responses at the same time. Your my sister by another mother!
Narrative Magazine charges a lot more than $5 to submit. No free option there. Of course, they do pay writers for published work.
Hi Jeremy,
These are indeed good questions.
1.) We don’t have this in place right now, but it’s something to think about.
2.) Yes.
3.) Business days.
4.) Expedited submissions aren’t treated any differently than regular submissions; some get form letters, some get invitations to send more work if this particular piece isn’t a fit. Some get feedback. Depends.
5.) Technically, I’m the only “Senior Editor”. Elijah is the Executive Editor. We’re the ones that are dealing with this.
6.) Elijah founded Flatmancrooked in March of 2008. I came on board in August of 2008. Like I said, Elijah founded the company. I put in my time. We’re now co-owners of Flatmancrooked.
7.) His submission would go through the regular process if he’s submitting through the regular process.
8.) The money goes towards producing the anthologies that submissions appear in. It’s expensive, you know? We don’t sell enough books to cover the cost of printing. Just to put this out there: none of the staff is on salary, or gets paid, for that matter.
9.) We just started using Submishmash, which has gotten our response time to about 2 months on average. But sometimes it’s quicker. At the long end, with our old and very janky system, it was closer to 4 or 5 months.
10.) You’re coming up. But, if you scroll down and read Elijah’s comment, he’s offered an open invitation for a expedited response to anyone who can show proof of purchase of a book from a number of indie houses (see the list he provided). You don’t even have to pay the NOMINAL fee!
All the best,
Deena
Reading through the responses, I am astounded at the lack of appreciation for the work Flatmancrooked and similar indie presses are doing. By what stretch of imagination or mathematics does one imagine they can make money this way? Go to any collection now or online site like zoetrope or fictionaut, seek out a 2500-word story. Now read it twice just to be fair. Respond to it. How long did that take?
Flatmancrooked (disclosure: they have published my work, both fiction and industry-related posts) and Opium and Dzanc — you name it — are not getting rich. Elijah and Deena are talented and intelligent and educated people who could get wonderfully paying jobs tomorrow if they wanted, if they were about money.
But no, they’d rather wade through oceans of dreck–YOUR DRECK–because maybe just maybe they might stumble upon a nugget of gold they find worthy of losing money on.
Seriously, folks. Put up or shut up. You think you can do it better, go to wordpress right now, start up an online lit mag and hang out your shingle. Tell duotrope, all the markets about it, Facebook it, tweet it.
Come back in a year. I want to hear about YOUR response time. How much fun you’re having.
Deena and Elijah and all those wonderful souls who provide us writers with space for our work deserve our praise, our support, and yes dammit, our LOVE.
(Oh, and did I mention the steak knives?)
Andrew, I hear what you’re saying but most of the people commenting here are doing the exact same work for free at small publishing outfits. None of us are getting paid. Flatmancrooked (whose books I buy regularly and always enjoy) is not some exception to the rule. I’d say about 80% of the people commenting here are, in some way, putting up every day, dealing with submission queues and losing money by publishing writing they love. This is a choice. We are all consenting adults who love writing and reading so much that it’s worth the hassles. Let’s not bring out the martyr paintbrush.
Good grief, sanctimonious-posturing much?
What’s the deal lately with journals and small/indie presses and/or some of their supporters needing us to pat them on the back constantly to remind them of their great contributions to humanity?
I hate to break it to you–and this might not make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside–but there will always be someone out there willing to do this shit for free, and by choice (I’m one of them). Do you really think that people who spend a significant amount of time on HTMLGIANT aren’t among the small percentage of the population who actually DO support literary journals and small/indie presses? Why do people like you come on here–on a literary blog that’s mostly read by people who already support literary journals and small/indie presses–and posture by preaching to the choir? Does it make you feel better about yourself? Are you seeking to validate yourself in some way by lecturing folks who already support literary journals and small/indie presses? Isn’t possible to disagree with particular methods of literary journals and small/indie presses to gain support and still support literary journals and small/indie presses?
Look, most of us here appreciate the efforts of literary journals and small/indie presses, and as Roxane notes, many of us work for such journals and presses, but some of you make asses out of yourselves with all of this literary journal and press martyrdom (stealing that last word from Roxane’s post).
None of us have to come on here and prove our loyalty and level of support of these journals and presses to you, Tin House, or the latest sanctimonious, holier-than-thou blogger blogging about how the world will end and kittens will drown if every writer doesn’t agree with every single method of literary journal or small/indie press support.
im more interested in what you might say in response to the editors.
edited to say that i mean this to be in a not-hostile tone, just a curious tone.
Hmm, I posted earlier that I don’t have an issue with the decision; I just don’t think it’s a big deal for some others to not like the move, or to question it.
It seems like if anyone questions one of these decisions, he or she’s automatically implied to be a hater of lit magazines, literature, Jesus, puppies, Allah, the elderly, and the disabled.
Remember when so many people got upset with Tin House for suggesting the “proof of purchase” thing? Hmmm… maybe not.
And yet… isn’t this just encouraging people who submit to support indie presses?
Shouldn’t this be a given?
Why is no one taking you up on this most gracious offer, Ee? Boys…
If I didn’t have a partner, I’d be happy to, um, submit.
Well said, Elijah. I’ve never worked for a lit journal, but the economic troubles, workload and dedication you’re describing are very familiar.
I used to contribute regularly to a one-of-a-kind quarterly magazine that was cutting-edge in both its design and content (interviews that ran the gamut of intellectual discourse, fiction, reviews, visual art, fiery essays) — a pan-arts publication, almost pre-Internet, both entertaining and thought-provoking. Despite its quality — or because of it — the magazine never gained enough subscribers or bookstore sales (not to mention the constant drama w/ distributors) to live more than five years.
I think of that magazine often. A lot of what I see in the indie lit world reminds me of it. I wonder where we’ll all be in 2015.
oh, yeah, i saw that. sorry. what i should have clarified is that i was more interested in what you might say in response to both elijah/deena’s comments above regarding wait times and how they operate. how can the staff of journals not affiliated with a program learn from the ways those places evaluate submissions efficiently? or vice versa. what have you seen that works well/doesnt work at those three journals?
edited to say might be a good guest post if it would be more complicated than a comment here. im open. or whatever!
Stating the obvious here, I like that this medium makes such dialogue possible.
So how do the nay-sayers propose that FMC cover its costs? Come up with a better way, implement it, and then get back to Elijah with the results.
Yes, it is in a manner of speaking “unfair” to do it this way; but on the other hand, if the press can’t afford to publish then your writing won’t see the light of day.
Why does HTML leave this kind of comment up for so long? It lowers the level of debate here and just creates antagonism. Don’t the moderators at HTML have the time or the interest in creating a reasoned level of discourse?
Honestly, I’ve heard all of that stuff before…nothing new in their posts. I can’t really add anything because I don’t think it’s difficult for any journal to respond within 1-2 months, whether it’s an MFA journal or a smaller journal run by 2 people. The solution is pretty simple: read a little each day instead of taking the “cram” approach with your slush pile.
If you’re not willing to hit the slush pile every day, then I’m not going to feel sorry for you (not saying this is the case at FM).
dude, is this a productive attitude?
Should Flatmancrooked ask some of you chaps in the future out how to best allocate our money? So what if we were to spend the money we make off of Expedited subs on a timeshare for AWP? That’s a legitimate business investment and it’s ridiculous for anyone to question it. More evidence that writers have no sense of the business world, which is why you can’t afford a measly five bucks to expedite your story, but can spend five minutes posting anonymous whines and Likes.
I recently spent 80 bucks to apply for the MFA at UCSD. Mandatory. Am I being scammed or am I supporting a good college? I like colleges so I feel it’s the latter. Paying five bucks for an expedited sub isn’t any different than rush ordering a book or piece of mail. It’s a special service FOR writers, not against them. And it’s not mandatory.
And, most importantly, to those high and mighty among you, how much have you spent on keeping small publishers afloat in the last year(s)? Nothing? Then stop typing please. You don’t really care about the industry; you care about the sound of your own snarky voice.
It’s all part of the same conversation and I never suggested that you all shouldn’t be allowed to defend yourselves. Where’d you get that from?
And it’s pretty clear in my first post that the issue is the sanctimony in Andrew’s post.
Here’s how this usually works:
*HTMLGiant blogs about a lit journal or indie press coming up with an inventive method to raise money or support.
*Some commenters have an issue with the method.
*Someone like Andrew hops onto the thread and, instead of addressing the commenters’ actual critiques, gets on his soapbox about how we should all appreciate and support literary journals, and be ashamed of ourselves for dare questioning the lit journal’s methods.
The implication is that writers don’t show their appreciation enough for literary journals, which is absurd since you apparently need to enact a method to motivate yourself to get through the slush more quickly, and since there are more lit journals and indie presses now than ever before and a downturn isn’t on the horizon.
In fact, there are so many literary journals and indie presses today that I shouldn’t be required to bow at their altar for merely existing and working hard.
It’s all part of the same conversation and I never suggested that you all shouldn’t be allowed to defend yourselves. Where’d you get that from?
And it’s pretty clear in my first post that the issue is the sanctimony in Andrew’s post.
Here’s how this usually works:
*HTMLGiant blogs about a lit journal or indie press coming up with an inventive method to raise money or support.
*Some commenters have an issue with the method.
*Someone like Andrew hops onto the thread and, instead of addressing the commenters’ actual critiques, gets on his soapbox about how we should all appreciate and support literary journals, and be ashamed of ourselves for dare questioning the lit journal’s methods.
The implication is that writers don’t show their appreciation enough for literary journals, which is absurd since you apparently need to enact a method to motivate yourself to get through the slush more quickly, and since there are more lit journals and indie presses now than ever before and a downturn isn’t on the horizon.
In fact, there are so many literary journals and indie presses today that I shouldn’t be required to bow at their altar for merely existing and working hard.
I love hearing people talk about response time as though it’s some universal quality that all publishing houses can or should (LOL) manage the same. What a silly claim. Go Duotrope and you’ll see that response times vary widely. Good for you if you can do 2 months. I applaud your free time, your management skills, your whatever you want to pat yourself on the back about. Sometimes people have to actually work, make money, do their own writing, apply for grad school, edit anthologies, etc etc, watch a damn movie, fuck, sleep, whatever.
I love you chippers, chip chip chipping away. Please come over to my house and show me how to chip sometime, or even better, write a book about chipping and see how much it sells. Or wait, would that be unethical? The idea of this whole article is based on the rather tenuous premise that making money off writers is somehow unethical?
Why?
By the way, I’d like to know why some of the people on here feel the need to post under a false name. It strikes me as rather easy to say certain things when you’re not being held accountable by your real identity. And I even wonder about the legitimacy of the debate here when people can argue under a cloak of secrecy. It makes me feel “uncomfortable.”
“And, most importantly, to those high and mighty among you, how much have you spent on keeping small publishers afloat in the last year(s)? Nothing? Then stop typing please. You don’t really care about the industry; you care about the sound of your own snarky voice.”
________________________
This is precisely the attitude that’s the problem–your belief that you’re doing something unique or special, or your belief that you can tell whether or not someone supports literary journals or indie presses based upon their “snarky” comments on this thread. I’ve worked for several journals that wield more national influence than FM.
You’re not special, or unique, and you seem to be rather humorless, uptight–someone who takes himself too seriously and is looking for the first opportunity to enact the moral high ground.
Andrew and Deena and Elijah were replying to some of the negative comments here. What don’t you understand? You seem to be suggesting we’re not allowed to defend ourselves from the attacks here? Why?
Why does HTML leave this kind of comment up for so long? It lowers the level of debate here and just creates antagonism. Don’t the moderators at HTML have the time or the interest in creating a reasoned level of discourse?
It sounds like Jereme wants to run Flatman. Tell you what, Jer, I can give you a really quick response time on your submission:
Dear _____,
You S***.
Please never submit again. Not even for a NOMINAL fee. We don’t want the money of an i****.
Best,
Steve
Ooooh, they are?
That’s what we call a knee-jerk reaction.
The whole strict moral grounding behind these kinds of posts usually pisses me off.
I don’t charge a reading fee because I don’t see that as a way to build my magazine. If someone else does, cool. And I think I might use the expedited reading service; why not? FMC is actually kind of huge, aren’t they?
And they’re better than Opium, who kept my piece in “recommend for acceptance” for over 500 days, only to reject it on nonsensical grounds.
hi steve,
we do moderate the comments, but usually we’re looking for content thats different from jereme’s comment. commenters here can also help to create a ‘reasoned level of discourse.’ you’ll notice both comments that called flatmancrooked’s actions as ‘bullshit’ were not addressed, but elsewhere more interesting discussions seem to be happening. you can ‘collapse’ the comments that you feel are dull/not up to the level of discourse that you expect by clicking on the minus in the right side of the commenters bar, as probably others have done with your ‘rejection letter to jereme’ below.
thanks,
ryan
“hi steve,
we do moderate the comments, but usually we’re looking for content thats different from jereme’s comment. commenters here can also help to create a ‘reasoned level of discourse.’ you’ll notice both comments that called flatmancrooked’s actions as ‘bullshit’ were not addressed, but elsewhere more interesting discussions seem to be happening. you can ‘collapse’ the comments that you feel are dull/not up to the level of discourse that you expect by clicking on the minus in the right side of the commenters bar, as probably others have done with your ‘rejection letter to jereme’ below.
thanks,
ryan”
regards,
JEREME
For the most part, Steve, this discussion has been pretty reasonable. People talk about these kinds of things. Everyone here, I feel, understands that this is not mandatory. Narrative has been discussed here many times. When Brevity instituted their fee, we talked about it. We’re not “picking on” FMC. You’re right. FMC can do whatever they want with their money and you don’t have to justify your expenditures or editorial choices. You’ll notice that the comments you take issue with were largely ignored. Most people here respect the work FMC is doing but please, stop acting like FMC and its editors are the only ones doing 50 important things and putting their own money into their ventures. Do you want a pat on the back? I would guess that a great many of the people here have put a whole lot of money into supporting small publishers, both their own and others. Do you really want to get into some financial dicksizing? Do people really have to prove to you that their either well off enough or altruistic enough to keep small publishers afloat before they can participate in this discourse?
Thank you for responding Deena. My initial questions were written after cursory glance of what was being proposed. Now that I have a better understanding, I have more questions.
I’ll post them here once I have the time to write them down.
For the at-home players who are adults: I’m guessing ‘suck’ and ‘idiot’, though ‘shit’ and ‘idjit’ (McCarthy) or ‘idgit’ (Matthiessen) would be better.
*You’re
$5, please.
dude, is this a productive attitude?
It’s all part of the same conversation and I never suggested that you all shouldn’t be allowed to defend yourselves. Where’d you get that from?
And it’s pretty clear in my first post that the issue is the sanctimony in Andrew’s post.
Here’s how this usually works:
*HTMLGiant blogs about a lit journal or indie press coming up with an inventive method to raise money or support.
*Some commenters have an issue with the method.
*Someone like Andrew hops onto the thread and, instead of addressing the commenters’ actual critiques, gets on his soapbox about how we should all appreciate and support literary journals, and be ashamed of ourselves for dare questioning the lit journal’s methods.
The implication is that writers don’t show their appreciation enough for literary journals, which is absurd since you apparently need to enact a method to motivate yourself to get through the slush more quickly, and since there are more lit journals and indie presses now than ever before and a downturn isn’t on the horizon.
In fact, there are so many literary journals and indie presses today that I shouldn’t be required to bow at their altar for merely existing and working hard.
I find it rather curious–and Puritanical–that someone in a position of power (someone who could very well decide whether or not to publish our work)–is essentially asking people for their ID’s.
“And, most importantly, to those high and mighty among you, how much have you spent on keeping small publishers afloat in the last year(s)? Nothing? Then stop typing please. You don’t really care about the industry; you care about the sound of your own snarky voice.”
________________________
This is precisely the attitude that’s the problem–your belief that you’re doing something unique or special, or your belief that you can tell whether or not someone supports literary journals or indie presses based upon their “snarky” comments on this thread. I’ve worked for several journals that wield more national influence than FM.
You’re not special, or unique, and you seem to be rather humorless, uptight–someone who takes himself too seriously and is looking for the first opportunity to enact the moral high ground.
The thing is I don’t see why not making much money off it is a defense.
If it was genuinely making you fat stacks, that would be just about the only reason to do it that would make any sense.
Five bucks for reading 5K words sounds like a pretty nice turn to me.
Nope, FMC isn’t kind of huge; it’s actually quite small – but it might seem bigger than it is because of the way it does business.
I like being anonymous; it feels better than than being eponymous ;)
It’s also exactly the kind of thing they banned one Mather Schneider for, but whatever, y’know.
Well, given the brusque and baseless rejections I’ve been getting lately, I wouldn’t mind paying someone five bucks to give me some honest feedback. Maybe. I dunno. I’ll have to read the magazine a little more. I remember something about Raudio. It was good stuff. They’re out of San Francisco, I think, and this is a comment made without the aid of any sort of googling. Anyways, what I was going to say is this: everyone in San Francisco thinks they’re huge. Look at fucking Jimmy Chen.
Hi,
Richard Thomas is inviting you to join Facebook.
Once you join, you’ll be able to connect with the Richard Thomas Page, along with people you care about and other things that interest you.
Thanks,
Richard Thomas
To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=556515298&k=AQCfK1E43lRtUAg8zZOSgfIYcm5qBAOGN78Wxhyxc28LtMQfA38eCuMxq_dzB0VmraZ8hshv8LwHD1y8&r&oid=151325158233682
You are receiving this email from Richard Thomas. Richard Thomas has sent you this message through Facebook. If you no longer want to receive messages through Facebook, click the link below. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=2aa60e&u=100002420370104&mid=49cce8eG5af3a0be2ab8G1a555aG7c Facebook, Inc. P.O. Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303
=======================================
To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/r.php?re=4b3dae659d2f402b447ced6c6bc1946d&mid=4fea259G5af3a0be2ab8G0G46 =======================================
Hi,
The following person invited you to be their friend on Facebook:
Richard Thomas (Invite sent: Jul 29, 2011)
Facebook is a great place to keep in touch with friends, post photos, videos and create events. But first you need to join! Sign up today to create a profile and connect with the people you know.
Thanks,
The Facebook Team
To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/r.php?re=4b3dae659d2f402b447ced6c6bc1946d&mid=4fea259G5af3a0be2ab8G0G46
=======================================
The message was sent to If you don’t want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future, please follow the link below to unsubscribe. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=2aa60e&u=100002420370104&mid=4fea259G5af3a0be2ab8G0G46 Facebook, Inc. P.O. Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303
=======================================
To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/r.php?re=1e69f0aa1a6c4839e85e7d18c2ddcf83&mid=517949bG5af3a0be2ab8G0G46 =======================================
Hi,
The following person invited you to be their friend on Facebook:
Richard Thomas (Invite sent: Jul 29, 2011)
Facebook is a great place to keep in touch with friends, post photos, videos and create events. But first you need to join! Sign up today to create a profile and connect with the people you know.
Thanks,
The Facebook Team
To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/r.php?re=1e69f0aa1a6c4839e85e7d18c2ddcf83&mid=517949bG5af3a0be2ab8G0G46
=======================================
The message was sent to If you don’t want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future, please follow the link below to unsubscribe. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=2aa60e&u=100002420370104&mid=517949bG5af3a0be2ab8G0G46 Facebook, Inc. P.O. Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303