July 8th, 2010 / 10:05 am
Uncategorized

Assigned Submissions

In light of the recent Tin House submissions controversy, maybe you’ll enjoy this brief exchange between ZYZZYVA editor Howard Junker and an anonymous author [my correction: she was not a former student of Junker’s as I had previously posted, but rather a writer he had published at one time] who required her class to submit their stories to literary magazines.

In April, the author wrote him to let him know that she had required her creative writing class to submit stories to magazines, and some of the class had decided to submit to ZYZZYVA. Junker posted her message on ZYZZYVASPEAKS, which begins

I thought I’d give you a tiny warning that you may have a bunch of submissions coming in from my students. This semester I am teaching a “Writing for the Professional Market” class, an upper level course in publishing, consisting of creative writing majors. For their final in the class, they must submit a story to a journal of their choice: their very first submission.

In the same post, he replied with a few questions, one of which was

what right do you have to use me (or any other editor) in this way—as the brunt of your homework?

Several months passed before the teacher discovered Junker’s post (I’m unclear as to whether or not Junker replied to her original message; there doesn’t seem to have been a ‘dialogue’ between them in the meantime). Anyhow, she wrote him back, and Junker again posted her message, in which she justified the assignment by saying

My intention for having them submit was largely to expose them to literary journals. Most of my students (and most undergraduate university students, I think) had never even picked up a literary journal. Assigning them to submit at the end of the semester: a) forced them to treat their stories with a bit more seriousness than usual, since they knew that someone would be reading them besides their classmates, b) encouraged them to thoughtfully read and consider the literary journal they wanted to submit to, and c) gave them the actual experience of putting a submission together.

No word as to how or if Junker responded, though his brief note at the top of the most recent post probably sums up his position:

Creative writing is an act of free will; by definition, it cannot be done on assignment.

Tags: ,

212 Comments

  1. Joseph Young

      can’t see why it would matter. 25 probably v easily rejectable stories to a magazine that gets thousands.

  2. Henry Vauban

      This is what you get when you teach creative writing…but seriously, how many students are in this class? 20 divided by the enitre lit publishing industry is not much and if you don’t like reading shitty submissions from unknowns then you shouldn’t be an editor at a journal with open subs.

  3. mark leidner

      lol “writing for the professional market”

      and double lol @ the editors fussy rage

  4. winston

      Ryan, I know Junker is heavy on the irony, so he’s certainly aware of the contrast with the post immediately preceding this one: ZYZZYVA’s participation in the CLMP Lit Mag classroom program.

      So, if I understand the flippant Junker correctly, he wants students to read and study literary magazines but not submit. At least not under the auspices of a classroom assignment.

      In other words, support his product as an observer/consumer, not a participant.

      And this is why people have such a low opinion of literary magazines and “writers.”

  5. Pete Michael Smith

      I totally support the Professor’s assignment, but think the only flaw is the choice to notify the editor beforehand. It possible that these 20 or so submissions are ‘easily rejectable’, but by giving the editor the heads up that his journal was being used as an assignment, these student’s submissions are immediately flagged and scrutinized if not discarded.

  6. Adam R

      Wouldn’t it have been better if the professor had made the students research journals that seemed appropriate for their work? How is it that so many of them ended up at ZYZZYVA?

  7. d

      Reverse alphabetical order.

  8. Brendan Connell

      I agree with the editor. Why should he have to read these students’ homework?

  9. d

      Why should he have to read any submission, homework or otherwise? Maybe because he’s the editor of a journal that accepts unsolicited submission..?

  10. darby

      yeah i think junkers being a little grumpy. i agree with the spirit of what he’s saying, for the most part, submitting will almost always be an act of free will, but nothing’s wrong with a little hand-holding for a beginning writer in a classroom setting or otherwise.

  11. darby

      its not ‘homework’ right? i mean they are stories people wrote. its not like people are submitting worksheets of their times tables.

  12. darby

      i think that takes a long time to do though. i mean i think to research you have to buy journals over multiple issues, and how do you make the decisions to buy which ones over the course of a semester? i mean i think it kind of takes years for writers to a) find their voice and b) find a place for it. the purpose of the assigment i would have to think is more just a familiarization of the process.

  13. Steven Augustine

      “…what right do you have to use me (or any other editor) in this way—as the brunt of your homework?”

      Does the editor know what the word “brunt” means or how it should be used?

  14. jackie corley

      i’m not really sure what junker is so upset about. a submission is a submission is a submission. it’s irrelevant whether or not a teacher assigned students to submit a story. and what’s wrong with a teacher exposing students to the array of literary journals out there? how does the literary journal really lose out? 10 minutes of a submission reader’s time isn’t some huge cross to bear.

  15. Brendan Connell

      The people are not submitting naturally. They are doing it because their teacher told them to.

      As an editor I would not like it. It is like they are taking the guy for a joke.

      If the teacher were clever, she would have just had the students submit the stories without writing the editor first. I wonder how much money these people who teach “professional” writing courses have made off their own writing? Clearly not enough to stay alive.

  16. Brendan Connell

      It takes more than 10 minutes to read a normal length story if you want to take it seriously.

  17. Adam R

      I thought that WAS the process?

      As it is, this assignment teaches one journal’s guidelines, and then, what, how to send an email.

  18. Sean

      I really don’t see the point in making them actually submit.

      I have multiple assignments that make students familiarize themselves with literary magazines. None of these assignments include submitting. You can easily introduce students into the lit mag world in many other ways.

      I also used to teach a professional writing course and they had to create a professional resume/CV and cover letter.

      But I never made them apply for an actual job with these materials.

      My point is the teacher could act as an editor. She/he could read and grade these stories and materials. She/he could teach a rubric or checklist for the cover letter and formatting. The students will take their stories seriously if you make them form a revision plan, make them give you numerous revision strategies, make them turn in a rough draft AND a revision that expresses actual revision. Etc.

      I don’t think an actual editor needs to be brought into all of this–especially without asking first.

  19. michael

      What if every CW teacher did this? What if it became a trend?

  20. Dreezer

      Sadly, no. Most slush fiction doesn’t need 10 minutes of consideration — the editor will be able to tell if it’s a dog by the bottom of the first page.

  21. danny

      i would imagine the professor brought in a handful of her own, or took them out from the library, then let the students look through them and decide which they liked best.

  22. Sean

      More than one CW teacher already does this. I’ve worked in many universities and this isn’t the only teacher doing this…

      The teacher should just end the class/section saying, “OK, now you know the correct way to submit a story. If you want to, go ahead and really submit your work. You can’t get published, if you don’t at least try.”

      etc

  23. Salvatore Pane

      That sounds right. I had the same assignment about 7 years ago minus the submission part. The professor took us to the library and showed us the literary journal section and tried to explain the different aesthetics at play in the more major magazines of the time.

      This sounds like a perfectly reasonable assignment to me and one I might steal for my own classes. The editor’s complaint seems to be less about the assignment and more about their distaste for writing classes in general.

  24. Tyler

      I think there is a difference between encouraging and assigning. If one, as an advocate and teacher of the creative writing world, think students should value the lit journal process, then by all means encourage it. But forcing them to submit for a grade, as several commenters pointed out, takes away the authenticity and integrity, it would seem, of the journal(s)/process/lit world. I’ve had several professors say that I should submit, explain publishing to me, and even suggest places that my work would be potentially suitable. However, never has a grade rested on this. I’m reminded of the way my parents treated sports. They let me be around it, gave me the gear to play the sports I tried out, and encouraged me to enjoy myself, but never did my dinner rest on whether or not I played. I want encouragement, but at twenty one years old and a competent student, I don’t want something as enjoyable as the literary process (especially publishing) to be brought down to an assignment level.

  25. michael

      Yes, it seems she’s asking Junker to do for free what she gets paid for…. read and review, assess, etc.

  26. magick mike

      why is the lit world as annoying as the art world, what is wrong with amerika, i hate capitalism etc/etc/etc

  27. Dan

      That’s a scary thought. As if there are not enough unsolicited submissions floating around already.

  28. darby

      yeah, that’s a fair argument. i agree with you. just teaching the logistics of submitting is kind of dumb.

  29. park

      “I read everything sent to me, because I enjoy finding needles in haystacks and because, if I perform any useful function, it is giving new voices a chance to be heard.”

      Howard Junker
      Editor, ZYZZYVA

  30. darby

      i approach editorship differently maybe, i kind of dont care where something is coming from or why, im single-mindedly looking for things to publish, if i get a barage of 20 ‘student’ submissions, that’s 20 more submission i get to choose from than i had before.

      also, i dont like the general attitude that these submission are by nature going to be easily rejectable or that there’s an expectation of poor quality. i read publishable work by students in CW programs all the time.

  31. danny

      in some of my journalism courses, we were taught how to write query letters, and were encouraged to send them out, see what happened. the first one i ever wrote, i sent to wired.

      there’s two lessons that can be learned from doing things like this, that it’s not an insurmountable thing to submit and above all, it teaches rejection. when all of your classmates are being rejected too, it doesn’t seem personal.

  32. Tim Horvath

      I’ve considered doing this, but when push came to shove balked because the work simply wasn’t ready. A semester is often not enough time for the stories to reach fruition. This doesn’t mean they’re bad–on the contrary, it’s often the stronger ones that need a little longer, a killer ending, say, more layering or cutting. Or else they’ve gone through a fresh round of these but now need a month to sit and cool, like ceramics, then be reassessed. In general, a few formative months is often premature as far as booting from the nest. And some stories may never be ready to go–they might be the stories where you honed your craft, learned some necessary shit, got the dross out of the tanks, went to the dialectical opposite extreme that you needed to go to to write the next one, the one that might be submission-worthy.

      I think it’s funny, though, that someone thought the teacher was asking Junker to do her job, what she’s “paid to do.” Was she asking him to read them thoroughly multiple times, comment in the context of the student’s overall trajectory, assign a grade, lead a few workshops, find parking on campus?

  33. darby

      i think something like this was the base of my earlier comment, but i dont know now, my minds changing. i dont think something should be submitted for the sake of getting used to rejection, thats kind of defeatist. i think students should not take submitting too lightly, to submit sparingly and to particular markets they enjoy reading and only when something is strong. a little trepidation w/r/t submitting work is healthy, it helps to avoid getting into a carpet-bombing cycle when there are no reservations about submitting everything to everyone.

  34. Reb

      I was assigned to submit to a magazine as an undergrad (in the early 90’s). It was useful to learn how to put together a submission, but there were flaws in the assignment. While I was supposed to “find” these magazines and read them, I didn’t. I had no idea where to find them. I went to the magazine store, there weren’t any lit magazines and that was that. The teacher handed out a list with addresses (and brought to class a few magazine samples for us to quickly peruse). I basically picked a magazine at random. Now this was before publishing on the internet. While the opportunities to learn about magazines are much more plentiful and simple, I find students rarely spend the time researching for this (fairly common) assignment.

      Except when the students are assigned to present a magazine to the the class. I’ve come across MySpace pages and essays on class blogs about No Tell Motel. I’ve given brief email interviews to students about NTM. Now, sometimes I am aghast by what they gleamed from their research and their conclusions, but at least they (on some level) engaged the magazine and some of the work published. I think that’s a much better assignment, or at the very least, the assignment that should precede the submission one.

  35. john carney

      i know, she even says to look out for 8-10 stories.

      the more i learn about howard junker, the more i dislike the guy

  36. john carney

      the prof says the students obviously picked up on her “talking up” (my words) Mr. Junk and his journal

  37. john carney

      Bingfreakingo

  38. john carney

      please, BC, please. you can often tell from the first sentence such as “Marlon Koolaido lived by the sea and knew one day he’d die in it.”

  39. john carney

      by the first sentence, often

  40. john carney

      ha ha, that is classic

      as tobias funke said, “this is ripe for satire!”

  41. john carney

      the most ridiculous part of this whole thing is that HJ and his people probably won’t give any story a real chance if the cover letter references the professor and the assignment. of course, any cover letter calling the submission “an assignment” probably has an idiot for its author.

  42. Roxane Gay

      I read Junker’s response when he first wrote it and I thought it was quite harsh. It’s important to teach students about publishing in addition to teaching them about writing and part of that involves encouraging them to submit. Now perhaps Junker’s former student could have encouraged students to submit to any magazine or to prepare a submission without sending it but on the whole, I didn’t think it was an unreasonable thing for her to do. As of late, I’ve noticed a certain weariness and/or resentment among editors with regard to submissions. I certainly understand how overwhelming the submission queue can get. I complain about it sometimes but I will complain about anything so that’s not noteworthy. The frustrations of submission management pale in comparison to the excitement of reading submissions. I get a real pleasure from it because it’s such a blessing to find great work there. There will come a day when the pendulum swings and that’s when I’ll know it’s time to take a break. Junker’s response reads like editorial burnout. His pendulum hath swung, perhaps.

  43. robert

      The school is located somewhere on the west coast. That’s the main stipulation of submitting to the publication, right? I’ve always wondered why a journal never came out that only published “east coast writers & artists” …

  44. ce.

      “also, i dont like the general attitude that these submission are by nature going to be easily rejectable or that there’s an expectation of poor quality. i read publishable work by students in CW programs all the time.”

      Thank you for this, Darby. I was thinking something similar, but figured I’d come to the game late enough that someone had already said it.

  45. Brendan Connell

      Well, I agree that the idea that these students are submitting just to be automatically rejected isn’t all that nice.

  46. winston
  47. Brendan Connell

      There are lots of good literary works made up of sentences that, on their own, are not that great.

      Good writing is more than just a bunch of good, clever sentences stacked on top of each other.

      To be honest, I would not reject a story based on the bad sentence you provided.

  48. mjm

      I wonder what the difference is from students in an MFA program submitting the poems they write while in this program. I’m pretty sure, though I’ve never been in an MFA program, they discuss publishing and I’m sure encourage their writers to submit. But submit as an assignment… not sure, but what is the difference from submitting as an assignment and being in an MFA program that expects you to submit, expects you to research markets…. but they aren’t teaching them HOW to go about this, in those programs, correct? (Once again, correct me, I’ve never been in an MFA program) See, this teacher was using a small portion of submits to prepare them to save editors time at large. Teach them now, save time later. Like saving hours swallow chlorine, teaching yourself how to swim, when you got an instructor to give you the guidelines…

  49. danny

      you’re right. i don’t think anyone should be, or is, advocating a carpet-bombing system. but a little push forward never hurt anyone. it’s easy to equate rejection with failure, and personally, i find it comforting for a person with some kind of authority to say, “everyone gets rejected.”

  50. john carney

      damn you! I thought the “Koolaido” would be the cincher.

  51. Brendan Connell

      There is a certain beauty in Koolaido.

  52. d

      What does “submitting naturally” mean? Why does intent matter?

      If someone writes a great story, why they submit it is pretty meaningless.

  53. Mike Meginnis

      Yeah, I’m sick to death of seeing editors bitch. I edit! Two magazines, now. It’s not that hard.

      This example just looks super-prissy to me. The correct response when someone submits is “Thank you.” Especially students. That’a a great thing to be involved in.

      I’m not going to require my students to submit this semester, but I will encourage it.

  54. Mike Meginnis

      My program actually encourages us not to submit, I think because it makes us uppity when we succeed. (Their attempt to convince me I have no future in fiction was rather derailed by my publishing or nearly making it in a lot of my favorite places.) Though they also congratulate us on publishing, though. Mixed messages. Certainly no one tries to help you figure out how.

  55. Kyle Minor

      I had some teachers who encouraged submissions and some who discouraged it actively. The rationale for the discouragement was that you publish too early because you’re good enough to get stuff published but not good enough to make good stuff, and then your juvenilia embarrasses you later. That might be true (my juvenilia embarrasses me a little), but there is something about seeing your work into print and then seeing absolutely nothing come of it that shows you: (1) publication isn’t the be all and end all; (2) not everything that is published is that good (because you sure are reading that magazine closely the first time you publish to see how you stack up), and (3) if those things are true, maybe it’s better to start trying to figure out what it is you want to do for your own work, absent market considerations. What makes your own work worth the effort you’ve expended to make it, if there isn’t any guaranteed material reward for it?

      One other objection I have to the idea of not publishing is that by publishing, you enter the literary conversation, and that changes not only your work but also the opportunity your work has to reach a broader audience, since, let’s face it, you get a closer read a lot of places if people know your name.

  56. Mike Meginnis

      Yeah. I actually first published when I was a junior in undergrad. Mainly it demystified publishing. Nobody cared that I had stories in these magazines. Made me smarter about the whole thing.

  57. Richard

      I’m in the middle of my MFA, but I’m a bit older, 42. So I had already had stuff published before I even got into the program. I think the assignment is a great one, but she should have done a couple of things differently: made them all pick different journals perhaps, so no one editor would get slammed with the classes work; do NOT give the editor a heads up, just let them submit.

      Who is to say that there isn’t a gem or two in this class? They could certainly get published, and they get to learn how to write a submission letter, craft a bio (even if they don’t have much to shout about) and the process of submitting. I was surprised that in my MFA program, probably 75% or more of the students had NEVER submitted anything. I encourage them all to polish up at least one story, and start submitting. I send them to duotrope.com, and I give them lists of journals that I love, where appropriate.

      More programs should encourage their students to submit. I’m shocked that any program would not do this.

  58. Joseph Young

      can’t see why it would matter. 25 probably v easily rejectable stories to a magazine that gets thousands.

  59. Guest

      This is what you get when you teach creative writing…but seriously, how many students are in this class? 20 divided by the enitre lit publishing industry is not much and if you don’t like reading shitty submissions from unknowns then you shouldn’t be an editor at a journal with open subs.

  60. mark leidner

      lol “writing for the professional market”

      and double lol @ the editors fussy rage

  61. winston

      Ryan, I know Junker is heavy on the irony, so he’s certainly aware of the contrast with the post immediately preceding this one: ZYZZYVA’s participation in the CLMP Lit Mag classroom program.

      So, if I understand the flippant Junker correctly, he wants students to read and study literary magazines but not submit. At least not under the auspices of a classroom assignment.

      In other words, support his product as an observer/consumer, not a participant.

      And this is why people have such a low opinion of literary magazines and “writers.”

  62. Pete Michael Smith

      I totally support the Professor’s assignment, but think the only flaw is the choice to notify the editor beforehand. It possible that these 20 or so submissions are ‘easily rejectable’, but by giving the editor the heads up that his journal was being used as an assignment, these student’s submissions are immediately flagged and scrutinized if not discarded.

  63. Tim

      Goddamn, I love that name. Marlon sounds like the kind of guy who might line his yard with junked European sedans and then shoot out their windshields while drinking Old Crow from the bottle. He might keep cats around to fend off bad spirits from the sea that crescents around his property, and plant a row of sunflowers near where he dries his clothes.

  64. Tim

      End of paragraph 2, max.

  65. Pete

      What, exactly, does this teach students? How to handle being ignored when the journal fails to respond, or being offended when the story they’ve labored over warrants no greater response from the journal than a pre-printed rejection postcard (with subscription information on the reverse side)? Come to think of it, this process IS good for students – it will let them know, very early in their writing careers, that the publishing industry doesn’t give two shits about their work.

  66. sm

      so Junker was her professor? Meaning he does or did teach creative writing (I’m assuming)? Yet he excoriates her for assigning her students “homework” in the form of creative writing? What?

      Also: the difference between “homework” and “writing you submit to magazines” does not necessarily exist. Three of the last four stories I’ve published were “homework assignments.” 2 of those 3 weren’t even for workshops but were papers for lit crit classes. So for real they were homework. Without quotation marks even. Of course I didn’t say that in my cover letters. But what. The idea that no good work can come out of structured assignments is dumb.

  67. Adam Robinson

      Wouldn’t it have been better if the professor had made the students research journals that seemed appropriate for their work? How is it that so many of them ended up at ZYZZYVA?

  68. d

      Reverse alphabetical order.

  69. Brendan Connell

      I agree with the editor. Why should he have to read these students’ homework?

  70. d

      Why should he have to read any submission, homework or otherwise? Maybe because he’s the editor of a journal that accepts unsolicited submission..?

  71. darby

      that’s kind of my story too. my first publication was because my CW prof encouraged people to submit to the school’s journal (not others), the prof himself ran the course that created the journal, so i sent and got accepted and was suddenly published before i even had a sense of what publishing was or researched markets or anything. i learned quickly that there’s little money to be made and hardly anyone will ever read your published work or recognize you for it.

  72. darby

      yeah i think junkers being a little grumpy. i agree with the spirit of what he’s saying, for the most part, submitting will almost always be an act of free will, but nothing’s wrong with a little hand-holding for a beginning writer in a classroom setting or otherwise.

  73. john carney

      Hmm, I guess I need to start writing this thing. Then I’ll use my friend’s Compton address and sent Mr. Junker the story and say it’s at the behest of one of his former pupils.

      The row of sunflowers is what may get me in ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZyvva after all this time of yearning and hoping and praying and kicking and churning.

  74. darby

      its not ‘homework’ right? i mean they are stories people wrote. its not like people are submitting worksheets of their times tables.

  75. darby

      i think that takes a long time to do though. i mean i think to research you have to buy journals over multiple issues, and how do you make the decisions to buy which ones over the course of a semester? i mean i think it kind of takes years for writers to a) find their voice and b) find a place for it. the purpose of the assigment i would have to think is more just a familiarization of the process.

  76. Steven Augustine

      “…what right do you have to use me (or any other editor) in this way—as the brunt of your homework?”

      Does the editor know what the word “brunt” means or how it should be used?

  77. I. Fontana

      It seems like I remember Junker stating that he never comments on submitted work.

  78. jackie corley

      i’m not really sure what junker is so upset about. a submission is a submission is a submission. it’s irrelevant whether or not a teacher assigned students to submit a story. and what’s wrong with a teacher exposing students to the array of literary journals out there? how does the literary journal really lose out? 10 minutes of a submission reader’s time isn’t some huge cross to bear.

  79. Brendan Connell

      The people are not submitting naturally. They are doing it because their teacher told them to.

      As an editor I would not like it. It is like they are taking the guy for a joke.

      If the teacher were clever, she would have just had the students submit the stories without writing the editor first. I wonder how much money these people who teach “professional” writing courses have made off their own writing? Clearly not enough to stay alive.

  80. Brendan Connell

      It takes more than 10 minutes to read a normal length story if you want to take it seriously.

  81. Adam Robinson

      I thought that WAS the process?

      As it is, this assignment teaches one journal’s guidelines, and then, what, how to send an email.

  82. Sean

      I really don’t see the point in making them actually submit.

      I have multiple assignments that make students familiarize themselves with literary magazines. None of these assignments include submitting. You can easily introduce students into the lit mag world in many other ways.

      I also used to teach a professional writing course and they had to create a professional resume/CV and cover letter.

      But I never made them apply for an actual job with these materials.

      My point is the teacher could act as an editor. She/he could read and grade these stories and materials. She/he could teach a rubric or checklist for the cover letter and formatting. The students will take their stories seriously if you make them form a revision plan, make them give you numerous revision strategies, make them turn in a rough draft AND a revision that expresses actual revision. Etc.

      I don’t think an actual editor needs to be brought into all of this–especially without asking first.

  83. michael

      What if every CW teacher did this? What if it became a trend?

  84. Dreezer

      Sadly, no. Most slush fiction doesn’t need 10 minutes of consideration — the editor will be able to tell if it’s a dog by the bottom of the first page.

  85. danny

      i would imagine the professor brought in a handful of her own, or took them out from the library, then let the students look through them and decide which they liked best.

  86. Sean

      More than one CW teacher already does this. I’ve worked in many universities and this isn’t the only teacher doing this…

      The teacher should just end the class/section saying, “OK, now you know the correct way to submit a story. If you want to, go ahead and really submit your work. You can’t get published, if you don’t at least try.”

      etc

  87. Salvatore Pane

      That sounds right. I had the same assignment about 7 years ago minus the submission part. The professor took us to the library and showed us the literary journal section and tried to explain the different aesthetics at play in the more major magazines of the time.

      This sounds like a perfectly reasonable assignment to me and one I might steal for my own classes. The editor’s complaint seems to be less about the assignment and more about their distaste for writing classes in general.

  88. Tyler

      I think there is a difference between encouraging and assigning. If one, as an advocate and teacher of the creative writing world, think students should value the lit journal process, then by all means encourage it. But forcing them to submit for a grade, as several commenters pointed out, takes away the authenticity and integrity, it would seem, of the journal(s)/process/lit world. I’ve had several professors say that I should submit, explain publishing to me, and even suggest places that my work would be potentially suitable. However, never has a grade rested on this. I’m reminded of the way my parents treated sports. They let me be around it, gave me the gear to play the sports I tried out, and encouraged me to enjoy myself, but never did my dinner rest on whether or not I played. I want encouragement, but at twenty one years old and a competent student, I don’t want something as enjoyable as the literary process (especially publishing) to be brought down to an assignment level.

  89. michael

      Yes, it seems she’s asking Junker to do for free what she gets paid for…. read and review, assess, etc.

  90. magick mike

      why is the lit world as annoying as the art world, what is wrong with amerika, i hate capitalism etc/etc/etc

  91. Dan

      That’s a scary thought. As if there are not enough unsolicited submissions floating around already.

  92. darby

      yeah, that’s a fair argument. i agree with you. just teaching the logistics of submitting is kind of dumb.

  93. park

      “I read everything sent to me, because I enjoy finding needles in haystacks and because, if I perform any useful function, it is giving new voices a chance to be heard.”

      Howard Junker
      Editor, ZYZZYVA

  94. darby

      i approach editorship differently maybe, i kind of dont care where something is coming from or why, im single-mindedly looking for things to publish, if i get a barage of 20 ‘student’ submissions, that’s 20 more submission i get to choose from than i had before.

      also, i dont like the general attitude that these submission are by nature going to be easily rejectable or that there’s an expectation of poor quality. i read publishable work by students in CW programs all the time.

  95. danny

      in some of my journalism courses, we were taught how to write query letters, and were encouraged to send them out, see what happened. the first one i ever wrote, i sent to wired.

      there’s two lessons that can be learned from doing things like this, that it’s not an insurmountable thing to submit and above all, it teaches rejection. when all of your classmates are being rejected too, it doesn’t seem personal.

  96. Tim Horvath

      I’ve considered doing this, but when push came to shove balked because the work simply wasn’t ready. A semester is often not enough time for the stories to reach fruition. This doesn’t mean they’re bad–on the contrary, it’s often the stronger ones that need a little longer, a killer ending, say, more layering or cutting. Or else they’ve gone through a fresh round of these but now need a month to sit and cool, like ceramics, then be reassessed. In general, a few formative months is often premature as far as booting from the nest. And some stories may never be ready to go–they might be the stories where you honed your craft, learned some necessary shit, got the dross out of the tanks, went to the dialectical opposite extreme that you needed to go to to write the next one, the one that might be submission-worthy.

      I think it’s funny, though, that someone thought the teacher was asking Junker to do her job, what she’s “paid to do.” Was she asking him to read them thoroughly multiple times, comment in the context of the student’s overall trajectory, assign a grade, lead a few workshops, find parking on campus?

  97. darby

      i think something like this was the base of my earlier comment, but i dont know now, my minds changing. i dont think something should be submitted for the sake of getting used to rejection, thats kind of defeatist. i think students should not take submitting too lightly, to submit sparingly and to particular markets they enjoy reading and only when something is strong. a little trepidation w/r/t submitting work is healthy, it helps to avoid getting into a carpet-bombing cycle when there are no reservations about submitting everything to everyone.

  98. Reb

      I was assigned to submit to a magazine as an undergrad (in the early 90’s). It was useful to learn how to put together a submission, but there were flaws in the assignment. While I was supposed to “find” these magazines and read them, I didn’t. I had no idea where to find them. I went to the magazine store, there weren’t any lit magazines and that was that. The teacher handed out a list with addresses (and brought to class a few magazine samples for us to quickly peruse). I basically picked a magazine at random. Now this was before publishing on the internet. While the opportunities to learn about magazines are much more plentiful and simple, I find students rarely spend the time researching for this (fairly common) assignment.

      Except when the students are assigned to present a magazine to the the class. I’ve come across MySpace pages and essays on class blogs about No Tell Motel. I’ve given brief email interviews to students about NTM. Now, sometimes I am aghast by what they gleamed from their research and their conclusions, but at least they (on some level) engaged the magazine and some of the work published. I think that’s a much better assignment, or at the very least, the assignment that should precede the submission one.

  99. sm

      to correct my point, I just read the whole thing and the teacher in question was not listed as a “former student” (like it says in the OP) but a writer Junker had published in the magazine. So his anti-educational stance makes more sense (though I still don’t agree with it at all). I stand by my larger point about writing assignments though. The idea that creative writing can’t be assigned is kind of like that idea that my beginning students often have that they should or can only write when they are depressed about something or otherwise emotionally moved. It’s fine for writers to feel that way, but that kind of writing is more about therapy than about craft, revision, producing a finished, polished story, etc. I can’t remember the last time I felt emotionally moved to, say, spellcheck a story, for instance.

  100. john carney

      i know, she even says to look out for 8-10 stories.

      the more i learn about howard junker, the more i dislike the guy

  101. john carney

      the prof says the students obviously picked up on her “talking up” (my words) Mr. Junk and his journal

  102. john carney

      Bingfreakingo

  103. john carney

      please, BC, please. you can often tell from the first sentence such as “Marlon Koolaido lived by the sea and knew one day he’d die in it.”

  104. john carney

      by the first sentence, often

  105. john carney

      ha ha, that is classic

      as tobias funke said, “this is ripe for satire!”

  106. john carney

      the most ridiculous part of this whole thing is that HJ and his people probably won’t give any story a real chance if the cover letter references the professor and the assignment. of course, any cover letter calling the submission “an assignment” probably has an idiot for its author.

  107. Ryan Call

      sm, thanks for the catch. ill correct that in the post.

  108. Roxane Gay

      I read Junker’s response when he first wrote it and I thought it was quite harsh. It’s important to teach students about publishing in addition to teaching them about writing and part of that involves encouraging them to submit. Now perhaps Junker’s former student could have encouraged students to submit to any magazine or to prepare a submission without sending it but on the whole, I didn’t think it was an unreasonable thing for her to do. As of late, I’ve noticed a certain weariness and/or resentment among editors with regard to submissions. I certainly understand how overwhelming the submission queue can get. I complain about it sometimes but I will complain about anything so that’s not noteworthy. The frustrations of submission management pale in comparison to the excitement of reading submissions. I get a real pleasure from it because it’s such a blessing to find great work there. There will come a day when the pendulum swings and that’s when I’ll know it’s time to take a break. Junker’s response reads like editorial burnout. His pendulum hath swung, perhaps.

  109. Ryan Call

      also, sorry to howard junker for the mistake.

  110. robert

      The school is located somewhere on the west coast. That’s the main stipulation of submitting to the publication, right? I’ve always wondered why a journal never came out that only published “east coast writers & artists” …

  111. ce.

      “also, i dont like the general attitude that these submission are by nature going to be easily rejectable or that there’s an expectation of poor quality. i read publishable work by students in CW programs all the time.”

      Thank you for this, Darby. I was thinking something similar, but figured I’d come to the game late enough that someone had already said it.

  112. Brendan Connell

      Well, I agree that the idea that these students are submitting just to be automatically rejected isn’t all that nice.

  113. winston
  114. Brendan Connell

      There are lots of good literary works made up of sentences that, on their own, are not that great.

      Good writing is more than just a bunch of good, clever sentences stacked on top of each other.

      To be honest, I would not reject a story based on the bad sentence you provided.

  115. mjm

      I wonder what the difference is from students in an MFA program submitting the poems they write while in this program. I’m pretty sure, though I’ve never been in an MFA program, they discuss publishing and I’m sure encourage their writers to submit. But submit as an assignment… not sure, but what is the difference from submitting as an assignment and being in an MFA program that expects you to submit, expects you to research markets…. but they aren’t teaching them HOW to go about this, in those programs, correct? (Once again, correct me, I’ve never been in an MFA program) See, this teacher was using a small portion of submits to prepare them to save editors time at large. Teach them now, save time later. Like saving hours swallow chlorine, teaching yourself how to swim, when you got an instructor to give you the guidelines…

  116. Amber

      Chris and Darby, totally agree. I’ve published several pieces by students in Creative Writing programs or classes, including one in a high school class, which I was astounded to learn after I read the submission but made me really happy. Shouldn’t this work, in theory, be as good or maybe even better than much of the stuff that gets submitted to the slush pile? Shouldn’t the editor be thanking this person for helping direct potential quality work to his publication?

      As for learning how to submit–I would have given my left nut (had I nuts) to learn how to submit a piece of writing back in the day.

  117. danny

      you’re right. i don’t think anyone should be, or is, advocating a carpet-bombing system. but a little push forward never hurt anyone. it’s easy to equate rejection with failure, and personally, i find it comforting for a person with some kind of authority to say, “everyone gets rejected.”

  118. john carney

      damn you! I thought the “Koolaido” would be the cincher.

  119. Brendan Connell

      There is a certain beauty in Koolaido.

  120. howard junker

      apology accepted.

      thanks for eliciting so many comments.

  121. d

      What does “submitting naturally” mean? Why does intent matter?

      If someone writes a great story, why they submit it is pretty meaningless.

  122. Sean

      It’s one thing to encourage. No one has argued against that, I don’t think.

      Assign is a bit much.

  123. Mike Meginnis

      Yeah, I’m sick to death of seeing editors bitch. I edit! Two magazines, now. It’s not that hard.

      This example just looks super-prissy to me. The correct response when someone submits is “Thank you.” Especially students. That’a a great thing to be involved in.

      I’m not going to require my students to submit this semester, but I will encourage it.

  124. Mike Meginnis

      My program actually encourages us not to submit, I think because it makes us uppity when we succeed. (Their attempt to convince me I have no future in fiction was rather derailed by my publishing or nearly making it in a lot of my favorite places.) Though they also congratulate us on publishing, though. Mixed messages. Certainly no one tries to help you figure out how.

  125. Dreezer

      I would think Junker’s best, and only important, comment would be acceptance for publication. A check to the author is a nice comment as well.

  126. Kyle Minor

      I had some teachers who encouraged submissions and some who discouraged it actively. The rationale for the discouragement was that you publish too early because you’re good enough to get stuff published but not good enough to make good stuff, and then your juvenilia embarrasses you later. That might be true (my juvenilia embarrasses me a little), but there is something about seeing your work into print and then seeing absolutely nothing come of it that shows you: (1) publication isn’t the be all and end all; (2) not everything that is published is that good (because you sure are reading that magazine closely the first time you publish to see how you stack up), and (3) if those things are true, maybe it’s better to start trying to figure out what it is you want to do for your own work, absent market considerations. What makes your own work worth the effort you’ve expended to make it, if there isn’t any guaranteed material reward for it?

      One other objection I have to the idea of not publishing is that by publishing, you enter the literary conversation, and that changes not only your work but also the opportunity your work has to reach a broader audience, since, let’s face it, you get a closer read a lot of places if people know your name.

  127. Mike Meginnis

      Yeah. I actually first published when I was a junior in undergrad. Mainly it demystified publishing. Nobody cared that I had stories in these magazines. Made me smarter about the whole thing.

  128. Richard

      I’m in the middle of my MFA, but I’m a bit older, 42. So I had already had stuff published before I even got into the program. I think the assignment is a great one, but she should have done a couple of things differently: made them all pick different journals perhaps, so no one editor would get slammed with the classes work; do NOT give the editor a heads up, just let them submit.

      Who is to say that there isn’t a gem or two in this class? They could certainly get published, and they get to learn how to write a submission letter, craft a bio (even if they don’t have much to shout about) and the process of submitting. I was surprised that in my MFA program, probably 75% or more of the students had NEVER submitted anything. I encourage them all to polish up at least one story, and start submitting. I send them to duotrope.com, and I give them lists of journals that I love, where appropriate.

      More programs should encourage their students to submit. I’m shocked that any program would not do this.

  129. karl taro greenfeld

      why did she bother to tell Howard she is doing this?

  130. Tim

      Goddamn, I love that name. Marlon sounds like the kind of guy who might line his yard with junked European sedans and then shoot out their windshields while drinking Old Crow from the bottle. He might keep cats around to fend off bad spirits from the sea that crescents around his property, and plant a row of sunflowers near where he dries his clothes.

  131. Tim

      End of paragraph 2, max.

  132. Pete

      What, exactly, does this teach students? How to handle being ignored when the journal fails to respond, or being offended when the story they’ve labored over warrants no greater response from the journal than a pre-printed rejection postcard (with subscription information on the reverse side)? Come to think of it, this process IS good for students – it will let them know, very early in their writing careers, that the publishing industry doesn’t give two shits about their work.

  133. sm

      so Junker was her professor? Meaning he does or did teach creative writing (I’m assuming)? Yet he excoriates her for assigning her students “homework” in the form of creative writing? What?

      Also: the difference between “homework” and “writing you submit to magazines” does not necessarily exist. Three of the last four stories I’ve published were “homework assignments.” 2 of those 3 weren’t even for workshops but were papers for lit crit classes. So for real they were homework. Without quotation marks even. Of course I didn’t say that in my cover letters. But what. The idea that no good work can come out of structured assignments is dumb.

  134. darby

      that’s kind of my story too. my first publication was because my CW prof encouraged people to submit to the school’s journal (not others), the prof himself ran the course that created the journal, so i sent and got accepted and was suddenly published before i even had a sense of what publishing was or researched markets or anything. i learned quickly that there’s little money to be made and hardly anyone will ever read your published work or recognize you for it.

  135. john carney

      Hmm, I guess I need to start writing this thing. Then I’ll use my friend’s Compton address and sent Mr. Junker the story and say it’s at the behest of one of his former pupils.

      The row of sunflowers is what may get me in ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZyvva after all this time of yearning and hoping and praying and kicking and churning.

  136. Sean

      I am over-commenting again (see upper right–though I have laid off a while). Sorry. I am finishing this whiskey my friend brought me last night. I never drink whisker, prob for a reason. I’ll add more ice and water now.

  137. I. Fontana

      It seems like I remember Junker stating that he never comments on submitted work.

  138. MFBomb

      “So, if I understand the flippant Junker correctly, he wants students to read and study literary magazines but not submit. At least not under the auspices of a classroom assignment.”

      ____________________

      Winston, this is precisely why I don’t trust Tin House’s motives, because its motives are clearly tied to a desire to decrease slush, when one would assume that the more submissions a journal receives, the more widely its known.

      The editor, Ron Spillman, even admits that his policy is partly intended to kill two birds with one stone–1) to decrease the slush and 2) to hold writers accountable for their support of literary magazines and journals, small presses, and indie bookstores. One has to ask, then, if Spillman would’ve expressed such deep concern for dying bookstores IF he had been receiving the exact number subs as subscriptions. Am I the only who finds it interesting–and problematic–that his charitable desire is tied to a desire for less work? Seriously? No one else has a problem with this, especially when the heavier workload likely correlates to his magazine’s international reputation?

      The fact is, some people can’t wrap their minds around the possibility that a person in a position of power would use an act of charity for more subversive reasons; I find this quite depressing, and expect more from writers who–I assumed—don’t live and exist in some sort of ahistorical bubble, as history is replete with examples of feigned charity. Obviously, Tin House’s policy isn’t one that will affect society in a serious way, but it does speak to a kind of middle to upper class progressive smugness that is a bit problematic, IMO.

      Anyway, you’ll find this interesting irony in many editorial circles–an open contempt for lit journal readers and submitters juxtaposed with a desire for more people to be aware of lit journals. In some ways, it reminds me of old heads in the record industry who think that every single aspect of their product should be “purchased,” that there’s no “value” in free music, and that pissing off consumers and alienating them produces large returns. Because Tin House is available in many indie and large chain stores, it’s idiotic to simply compare the number of subscriptions to the submissions and assume that most of the submitters don’t support the magazine or frequent bookstores THAT SELL TIN HOUSE. But it doesn’t matter, because Tin House’s policy helps dying bookstores! All discussion is hereby shutdown by their mere use of charity and everyone who dares question the policy hates reading and burns book in his spare time!

      Junker seems to espouse the same kind of progressive smugness that wraps itself in notions of charity while simultaneously expressing contempt for the average person. Wonderful!

  139. MFBomb

      *Rob Spillman

  140. sm

      to correct my point, I just read the whole thing and the teacher in question was not listed as a “former student” (like it says in the OP) but a writer Junker had published in the magazine. So his anti-educational stance makes more sense (though I still don’t agree with it at all). I stand by my larger point about writing assignments though. The idea that creative writing can’t be assigned is kind of like that idea that my beginning students often have that they should or can only write when they are depressed about something or otherwise emotionally moved. It’s fine for writers to feel that way, but that kind of writing is more about therapy than about craft, revision, producing a finished, polished story, etc. I can’t remember the last time I felt emotionally moved to, say, spellcheck a story, for instance.

  141. justin

      Nuts.

  142. Corey

      I feel very much the same as many above on the subject of Junker’s weak response to a minor increase in workload, a workload inextricable from the profession.

      What troubles me far more though is that before the submissions have even arrived, Junker presumes that the undergrad writing will be of a certain type, that they will all be below his interests, and that they are a burden and not an opportunity. Certainly I don’t think the message should inspire some excitement, like “oh, 20 undergrads from such-and-such university, that should be interesting.” No, I understand the very merest amount of submissions even prop the eyelids of an editor up from three quarters closed to half open, but the knee-jerk cynicism, that’s what worries me.

      It leads me to a question. Do print journals have any interest at all in the creative work of younger writers? I share the understanding that characteristics that one might generalise as being of ‘the young writer’ are signs of immaturity, less competent writing ability so on and so forth, but to consider the obverse truisms, that the young writer write of the purest contemporaneity (whatever that might be) innocent novelty or originality, be writing in emergent styles or forms of writing, why are editors so often avoiding the possibility of these assumptions? Clearly I’m not saying simply, ‘look on the bright side of life’ or some other rubbish, nor is there much truth to these truisms, but it’s more that rush to cynicism, the superficial support of young writers without substantial belief or discursive support for such attempts, and the general preoccupation with one side of the truisms surrounding notions of the young writer rather than the other that concerns me. It tells me that journals like ZYZZYVA will remain as intransigent as ever regarding preferences over aesthetics, calcified notions of literary value, and the very common choice to publish some-one over some-thing.

      Isn’t it a shame a teacher was punished for being polite? That Junker would be such a callous prick about this irks me too, doesn’t he realise these students could well have submitted to the journal without the heads-up she offered. If Junker objects to the actual assignment of submitting to journals as a part of a writing course, then he might as well object to the whole institution, for isn’t the institution in large part a place where people go to for guidance on how to hone their writing for the public, in whatever mode it ends up? If I’m to disregard the lines that blur between the study of literature and of creative writing, if one intends not to learn what literature is or can become, and rather wish to study what their own writing might be or become, isn’t the discipline constituted of guidance that must first pertain to systems of judgement awaiting the existence of a written work once made public? That it be of a certain quality or of a certain kind. Otherwise, we needn’t be students of creative writing, and can instead study literature as an external phenomena that we in turn incorporate, internalise, be done with, deconstruct, destroy. So, to summarise, Junker has no basis from which to complain on principle since he must already know that a large chunk of his submissions come from undergraduates, and many from undergraduate assignments. Sure, I understand he might be pessimistic, even pissed off the teacher chose his journal, but to challenge it? Ridiculous.

  143. Ryan Call

      sm, thanks for the catch. ill correct that in the post.

  144. Ryan Call

      also, sorry to howard junker for the mistake.

  145. MFBomb

      What’s even more astounding is the fact that, on the same blog where he pleads for a greater appreciation of lit mags, he publishes his unprofessional and mean response to a teacher who was, uh, exposing her students to lit mags in the most intimate way possible.

      Let’s just cut to the chase: you have to come from quite a position of privilege to express contempt for potential readers and submitters while in the same breath beg for their support. Junker’s position is the kind of position that could only emanate from someone who is used to getting his way–someone who can behave with utter contempt for his journal’s audience and still beg them for support. Someone who has lived a privileged life, knows it, flaunts it, and has such contempt for everyone that he holds his middle finger up to his own readers while asking them to subscribe. Because he can do that.

      No one with more than two brain cells should take Junker seriously the next time he begs for support on his blog. All one has to do is bring back his post to prove how he actually went out of his way to alienate 20 potential subscribers. What an idiot. A smart editor would’ve kept his mouth shut and rejected the stories with “we appreciate the opportunity to read these, but they’re not right for us–keep trying!” notes and not risked the potential to lose 20 potential subscribers.

  146. winston

      In the words of Junker….

      Onward!

  147. winston

      Yes, “punished for being polite”–why post it on his blog? Who actually subscribes to ZZTOP anyway?

  148. Amber

      Chris and Darby, totally agree. I’ve published several pieces by students in Creative Writing programs or classes, including one in a high school class, which I was astounded to learn after I read the submission but made me really happy. Shouldn’t this work, in theory, be as good or maybe even better than much of the stuff that gets submitted to the slush pile? Shouldn’t the editor be thanking this person for helping direct potential quality work to his publication?

      As for learning how to submit–I would have given my left nut (had I nuts) to learn how to submit a piece of writing back in the day.

  149. howard junker

      apology accepted.

      thanks for eliciting so many comments.

  150. Sean

      It’s one thing to encourage. No one has argued against that, I don’t think.

      Assign is a bit much.

  151. Dreezer

      I would think Junker’s best, and only important, comment would be acceptance for publication. A check to the author is a nice comment as well.

  152. karl taro greenfeld

      why did she bother to tell Howard she is doing this?

  153. Sean

      I am over-commenting again (see upper right–though I have laid off a while). Sorry. I am finishing this whiskey my friend brought me last night. I never drink whisker, prob for a reason. I’ll add more ice and water now.

  154. karl taro greenfeld

      Junker has a one-and-done policy. He only publishes writers in Zyzzyva once, so he actually has more incentive to seek out new writers than most lit mag editors. So I think he welcomes the new and novice. Again, how did it benefit anyone—the students, Zyzzyva—for this teacher to have informed Junker that she was doing this? The assignment would have been completed if she had told Junker or not. The stories would have been considered, rejected and so forth—Junkers reads all his submissions himself. That’s why I wonder if she was very subtly asking for more personal attention and responses. Just a thought.

  155. Brendan Connell

      Actually, that is the “words” of Robert Creeley. Junker probably got it from him…

  156. Guest

      “So, if I understand the flippant Junker correctly, he wants students to read and study literary magazines but not submit. At least not under the auspices of a classroom assignment.”

      ____________________

      Winston, this is precisely why I don’t trust Tin House’s motives, because its motives are clearly tied to a desire to decrease slush, when one would assume that the more submissions a journal receives, the more widely its known.

      The editor, Ron Spillman, even admits that his policy is partly intended to kill two birds with one stone–1) to decrease the slush and 2) to hold writers accountable for their support of literary magazines and journals, small presses, and indie bookstores. One has to ask, then, if Spillman would’ve expressed such deep concern for dying bookstores IF he had been receiving the exact number subs as subscriptions. Am I the only who finds it interesting–and problematic–that his charitable desire is tied to a desire for less work? Seriously? No one else has a problem with this, especially when the heavier workload likely correlates to his magazine’s international reputation?

      The fact is, some people can’t wrap their minds around the possibility that a person in a position of power would use an act of charity for more subversive reasons; I find this quite depressing, and expect more from writers who–I assumed—don’t live and exist in some sort of ahistorical bubble, as history is replete with examples of feigned charity. Obviously, Tin House’s policy isn’t one that will affect society in a serious way, but it does speak to a kind of middle to upper class progressive smugness that is a bit problematic, IMO.

      Anyway, you’ll find this interesting irony in many editorial circles–an open contempt for lit journal readers and submitters juxtaposed with a desire for more people to be aware of lit journals. In some ways, it reminds me of old heads in the record industry who think that every single aspect of their product should be “purchased,” that there’s no “value” in free music, and that pissing off consumers and alienating them produces large returns. Because Tin House is available in many indie and large chain stores, it’s idiotic to simply compare the number of subscriptions to the submissions and assume that most of the submitters don’t support the magazine or frequent bookstores THAT SELL TIN HOUSE. But it doesn’t matter, because Tin House’s policy helps dying bookstores! All discussion is hereby shutdown by their mere use of charity and everyone who dares question the policy hates reading and burns book in his spare time!

      Junker seems to espouse the same kind of progressive smugness that wraps itself in notions of charity while simultaneously expressing contempt for the average person. Wonderful!

  157. Guest

      *Rob Spillman

  158. justin

      Nuts.

  159. Caca Coup

      I feel very much the same as many above on the subject of Junker’s weak response to a minor increase in workload, a workload inextricable from the profession.

      What troubles me far more though is that before the submissions have even arrived, Junker presumes that the undergrad writing will be of a certain type, that they will all be below his interests, and that they are a burden and not an opportunity. Certainly I don’t think the message should inspire some excitement, like “oh, 20 undergrads from such-and-such university, that should be interesting.” No, I understand the very merest amount of submissions even prop the eyelids of an editor up from three quarters closed to half open, but the knee-jerk cynicism, that’s what worries me.

      It leads me to a question. Do print journals have any interest at all in the creative work of younger writers? I share the understanding that characteristics that one might generalise as being of ‘the young writer’ are signs of immaturity, less competent writing ability so on and so forth, but to consider the obverse truisms, that the young writer write of the purest contemporaneity (whatever that might be) innocent novelty or originality, be writing in emergent styles or forms of writing, why are editors so often avoiding the possibility of these assumptions? Clearly I’m not saying simply, ‘look on the bright side of life’ or some other rubbish, nor is there much truth to these truisms, but it’s more that rush to cynicism, the superficial support of young writers without substantial belief or discursive support for such attempts, and the general preoccupation with one side of the truisms surrounding notions of the young writer rather than the other that concerns me. It tells me that journals like ZYZZYVA will remain as intransigent as ever regarding preferences over aesthetics, calcified notions of literary value, and the very common choice to publish some-one over some-thing.

      Isn’t it a shame a teacher was punished for being polite? That Junker would be such a callous prick about this irks me too, doesn’t he realise these students could well have submitted to the journal without the heads-up she offered. If Junker objects to the actual assignment of submitting to journals as a part of a writing course, then he might as well object to the whole institution, for isn’t the institution in large part a place where people go to for guidance on how to hone their writing for the public, in whatever mode it ends up? If I’m to disregard the lines that blur between the study of literature and of creative writing, if one intends not to learn what literature is or can become, and rather wish to study what their own writing might be or become, isn’t the discipline constituted of guidance that must first pertain to systems of judgement awaiting the existence of a written work once made public? That it be of a certain quality or of a certain kind. Otherwise, we needn’t be students of creative writing, and can instead study literature as an external phenomena that we in turn incorporate, internalise, be done with, deconstruct, destroy. So, to summarise, Junker has no basis from which to complain on principle since he must already know that a large chunk of his submissions come from undergraduates, and many from undergraduate assignments. Sure, I understand he might be pessimistic, even pissed off the teacher chose his journal, but to challenge it? Ridiculous.

  160. Guest

      What’s even more astounding is the fact that, on the same blog where he pleads for a greater appreciation of lit mags, he publishes his unprofessional and mean response to a teacher who was, uh, exposing her students to lit mags in the most intimate way possible.

      Let’s just cut to the chase: you have to come from quite a position of privilege to express contempt for potential readers and submitters while in the same breath beg for their support. Junker’s position is the kind of position that could only emanate from someone who is used to getting his way–someone who can behave with utter contempt for his journal’s audience and still beg them for support. Someone who has lived a privileged life, knows it, flaunts it, and has such contempt for everyone that he holds his middle finger up to his own readers while asking them to subscribe. Because he can do that.

      No one with more than two brain cells should take Junker seriously the next time he begs for support on his blog. All one has to do is bring back his post to prove how he actually went out of his way to alienate 20 potential subscribers. What an idiot. A smart editor would’ve kept his mouth shut and rejected the stories with “we appreciate the opportunity to read these, but they’re not right for us–keep trying!” notes and not risked the potential to lose 20 potential subscribers.

  161. winston

      In the words of Junker….

      Onward!

  162. winston

      Yes, “punished for being polite”–why post it on his blog? Who actually subscribes to ZZTOP anyway?

  163. karl taro greenfeld

      Junker has a one-and-done policy. He only publishes writers in Zyzzyva once, so he actually has more incentive to seek out new writers than most lit mag editors. So I think he welcomes the new and novice. Again, how did it benefit anyone—the students, Zyzzyva—for this teacher to have informed Junker that she was doing this? The assignment would have been completed if she had told Junker or not. The stories would have been considered, rejected and so forth—Junkers reads all his submissions himself. That’s why I wonder if she was very subtly asking for more personal attention and responses. Just a thought.

  164. Brendan Connell

      Actually, that is the “words” of Robert Creeley. Junker probably got it from him…

  165. Alicia Gifford

      Tin House is trying to reduce slush by asking for a receipt from a bookstore??? Look again, MF. Tin House Books is OPENING submissions to unsolicited, un-agented manuscripts, therefore, substantially INCREASING its slush load. Their normal policy is that book submissions come via an agent. They’re inviting anyone and their mama to submit their book manuscript to them for consideration, as long as it’s accompanied by a receipt for a book bought from a brick-and-mortar bookstore. Any book from ANY bookstore.

      As far as the magazine goes, I doubt the slush will decrease all that much because TH is asking for a receipt from a bookstore. It might even increase, in the spirit of supporting brick-and-mortar bookstores.

      No lit journal has the same number of subscribers as submitters. Consider for one moment that Tin House’s motivation is to garner a few sales for bookstores and not something nefarious and underhanded. It’s not that preposterous.

  166. Joseph Young

      the submissions could be great, darby, chris, etc. there’s brilliant writers in cw programs. but if it’s the first time they’ve submitted something, if they are taking the class in question, it’s pretty likely they won’t be that great. most submissions are easily rejectable, in any case, wherever they come from. what’s their acceptance rate? less than 1% no doubt. at smokelong where i edited for awhile it was something like 2%, so that’s where i’m getting the number. any random 8 or 9 or 20 pieces were easily rejectable. i’m sure you know that, darby.

  167. Alicia Gifford

      What I find bizarre about this is that the teacher *privately* messaged Junker on Facebook about her students’ submissions to his journal, and he publicized her message and his rather offensive response to it on the Zyzzyva blog. WTF? And then he posts her, again, *private* FB message about his harsh response, again, publicly on the blog. Aren’t private messages supposed to be, um, private?

  168. winston

      Dorianne Laux has been published in Zyzzyva “8 or 9 times” according to Junker.

      Is this a new policy?

  169. MFBomb

      Oh, wow, they’re opening a slush pile that’s significantly lighter than the other pile. Big deal. You do realize that the editor has acknowledged the burden of reading a large amount of magazine submissions, right?

      I realize that no lit journal has the same number of subscribes as submissions. What’s your point? I’m going off what dude said himself–paraphrase: we have more submissions than subscribers, reading all these subs is hard work, hmmm. These people must not be reading our magazine! Let’s enact this policy.

      I’m happy that you’re so easily satisfied with any little sanctimonious bone tossed your way. Who cares if they might want to garner more sales for bookstores? Whoop-de-fricking-doo. Who the hell doesn’t and why should I be forced to turn in a fucking homework assignment to submit a story?

      How old are you some of you people? I don’t enjoy being patronized and treated like a child. Maybe some of y’all do.

  170. MFBomb

      *subscribers

  171. ZZZIPP

      THEN THERE MIGHT BE *UNQUALIFIED* PEOPLE SUBMITTING TO MAGAZINES!!!!

  172. Mike Meginnis

      NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  173. karl taro greenfeld

      yes, announced in 2009

  174. Alicia Gifford

      Tin House is trying to reduce slush by asking for a receipt from a bookstore??? Look again, MF. Tin House Books is OPENING submissions to unsolicited, un-agented manuscripts, therefore, substantially INCREASING its slush load. Their normal policy is that book submissions come via an agent. They’re inviting anyone and their mama to submit their book manuscript to them for consideration, as long as it’s accompanied by a receipt for a book bought from a brick-and-mortar bookstore. Any book from ANY bookstore.

      As far as the magazine goes, I doubt the slush will decrease all that much because TH is asking for a receipt from a bookstore. It might even increase, in the spirit of supporting brick-and-mortar bookstores.

      No lit journal has the same number of subscribers as submitters. Consider for one moment that Tin House’s motivation is to garner a few sales for bookstores and not something nefarious and underhanded. It’s not that preposterous.

  175. Joseph Young

      the submissions could be great, darby, chris, etc. there’s brilliant writers in cw programs. but if it’s the first time they’ve submitted something, if they are taking the class in question, it’s pretty likely they won’t be that great. most submissions are easily rejectable, in any case, wherever they come from. what’s their acceptance rate? less than 1% no doubt. at smokelong where i edited for awhile it was something like 2%, so that’s where i’m getting the number. any random 8 or 9 or 20 pieces were easily rejectable. i’m sure you know that, darby.

  176. Alicia Gifford

      What I find bizarre about this is that the teacher *privately* messaged Junker on Facebook about her students’ submissions to his journal, and he publicized her message and his rather offensive response to it on the Zyzzyva blog. WTF? And then he posts her, again, *private* FB message about his harsh response, again, publicly on the blog. Aren’t private messages supposed to be, um, private?

  177. Alicia Gifford

      Yeah, they sat around kicking the slush, pondering, how can we get rid of this shit. So they came up with the brilliantly diabolical lit caper of making submitters show a receipt for a bookstore purchase. Yeah, that’s the ticket. No one will submit if they have to send us a receipt. Sure we’ll be inundated with book manuscripts, but really, this is the way to um, what?

      Now they’re reading your posts and thinking, man, that MFBomb, he made us. We thought we were fooling everyone but not that MFBomb! He’s some fucking genius!

  178. winston

      Dorianne Laux has been published in Zyzzyva “8 or 9 times” according to Junker.

      Is this a new policy?

  179. d

      Nothing on the internet is private.

  180. Alicia Gifford
  181. MFBomb

      Yeah, and my argument has been this reductive and a mere conspiracy theory. I doubt they spent much time “kicking this around,” which is sort of my point, idiot. GFY.

  182. Guest

      Oh, wow, they’re opening a slush pile that’s significantly lighter than the other pile. Big deal. You do realize that the editor has acknowledged the burden of reading a large amount of magazine submissions, right?

      I realize that no lit journal has the same number of subscribes as submissions. What’s your point? I’m going off what dude said himself–paraphrase: we have more submissions than subscribers, reading all these subs is hard work, hmmm. These people must not be reading our magazine! Let’s enact this policy.

      I’m happy that you’re so easily satisfied with any little sanctimonious bone tossed your way. Who cares if they might want to garner more sales for bookstores? Whoop-de-fricking-doo. Who the hell doesn’t and why should I be forced to turn in a fucking homework assignment to submit a story?

      How old are you some of you people? I don’t enjoy being patronized and treated like a child. Maybe some of y’all do.

  183. Guest

      *subscribers

  184. ZZZIPP

      THEN THERE MIGHT BE *UNQUALIFIED* PEOPLE SUBMITTING TO MAGAZINES!!!!

  185. Alicia Gifford

      Your only “point” is on your dunce cap (I know, I know, it’s your “sorcerer’s hat,” but that big D doesn’t stand for Disneyland).

  186. MFBomb

      Yes, my dunce cap, the same one that half or more of the editors in the CLMP forum are also wearing. You got me. No one is stopping you from saving a dying bookstore, so stop responding to me and get started on your HW assignment.

  187. john carney

      Indeed, this is the most interesting part of this whole debacle. So nice of Mr. Junker to “out” a star-struck pupil who was perhaps a bit obsequious/myopic in facebook messaging him the first time. I bet Mr. Junker takes great umbrage at being called “Howie” but, based on the limited information I’ve seen, I’d say he has acted like a Howie right now, not a Howard.

  188. d

      I have no idea. I imagine he thought he was making a good point? Or something?

  189. Alicia Gifford

      ha ha! Now your calling in some imaginary confederacy of dunces. You’re so big and bad behind your fake moniker. I’ll respond to whomever and whatever I want.

  190. Alicia Gifford

      I don’t get it. Seriously. Why do this? Oh well. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy. Etc.

  191. MFBomb

      I never said you couldn’t respond to me, Alicia Gifford. I just want to make sure that you have time to work on your boring, safe Narrative stories that might appeal to Tin House, that’s all. Don’t forget the receipt!

  192. Mike Meginnis

      NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  193. Alicia Gifford

      “…so stop responding to me”
      “I never said you couldn’t respond to me”

      You’re gonna have to wear that dunce cap a little bit longer, MFBomb. Yeah, Narrative liked my boring, safe stories, as did AQR, Pank, LA Review, DOGZPLOT, Hobart, Eyeshot, 3 AM, FRiGG, SmokeLong, Opium, Barcelona Review and a whole lotta other places. Some day, if you EVER publish ANYTHING, you might lose that bitter little chip on your shoulder. Keep trying you fake little weenie! Until then, go suck your thumb behind your fake little name.

  194. MFBomb

      Hmm, well, I actually have several national publications, so yeah, I’m pretty sure I’m published. I’m not here to promote my work. It ain’t about me and spamming this site so that people will click on my blog or whatever.

      Anyway, to be fair, I read some of your other stories and liked them; the Narrative story was just….Narrativey, not my thing but I’m only one reader. No hard feelings and you’re welcome to have the last word, Alicia Gifford.

  195. karl taro greenfeld

      yes, announced in 2009

  196. Alicia Gifford

      Yeah, they sat around kicking the slush, pondering, how can we get rid of this shit. So they came up with the brilliantly diabolical lit caper of making submitters show a receipt for a bookstore purchase. Yeah, that’s the ticket. No one will submit if they have to send us a receipt. Sure we’ll be inundated with book manuscripts, but really, this is the way to um, what?

      Now they’re reading your posts and thinking, man, that MFBomb, he made us. We thought we were fooling everyone but not that MFBomb! He’s some fucking genius!

  197. d

      Nothing on the internet is private.

  198. Alicia Gifford
  199. Guest

      Yeah, and my argument has been this reductive and a mere conspiracy theory. I doubt they spent much time “kicking this around,” which is sort of my point, idiot. GFY.

  200. Alicia Gifford

      Your only “point” is on your dunce cap (I know, I know, it’s your “sorcerer’s hat,” but that big D doesn’t stand for Disneyland).

  201. Guest

      Yes, my dunce cap, the same one that half or more of the editors in the CLMP forum are also wearing. You got me. No one is stopping you from saving a dying bookstore, so stop responding to me and get started on your HW assignment.

  202. john carney

      Indeed, this is the most interesting part of this whole debacle. So nice of Mr. Junker to “out” a star-struck pupil who was perhaps a bit obsequious/myopic in facebook messaging him the first time. I bet Mr. Junker takes great umbrage at being called “Howie” but, based on the limited information I’ve seen, I’d say he has acted like a Howie right now, not a Howard.

  203. d

      I have no idea. I imagine he thought he was making a good point? Or something?

  204. Alicia Gifford

      ha ha! Now your calling in some imaginary confederacy of dunces. You’re so big and bad behind your fake moniker. I’ll respond to whomever and whatever I want.

  205. Alicia Gifford

      I don’t get it. Seriously. Why do this? Oh well. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy. Etc.

  206. Guest

      I never said you couldn’t respond to me, Alicia Gifford. I just want to make sure that you have time to work on your boring, safe Narrative stories that might appeal to Tin House, that’s all. Don’t forget the receipt!

  207. Alicia Gifford

      “…so stop responding to me”
      “I never said you couldn’t respond to me”

      You’re gonna have to wear that dunce cap a little bit longer, MFBomb. Yeah, Narrative liked my boring, safe stories, as did AQR, Pank, LA Review, DOGZPLOT, Hobart, Eyeshot, 3 AM, FRiGG, SmokeLong, Opium, Barcelona Review and a whole lotta other places. Some day, if you EVER publish ANYTHING, you might lose that bitter little chip on your shoulder. Keep trying you fake little weenie! Until then, go suck your thumb behind your fake little name.

  208. Guest

      Hmm, well, I actually have several national publications, so yeah, I’m pretty sure I’m published. I’m not here to promote my work. It ain’t about me and spamming this site so that people will click on my blog or whatever.

      Anyway, to be fair, I read some of your other stories and liked them; the Narrative story was just….Narrativey, not my thing but I’m only one reader. No hard feelings and you’re welcome to have the last word, Alicia Gifford.

  209. Rudy

      Zyzzyva will probably get more subscribers, because of this. I think Howard feels he has nothing to lose. He’d love you to call him asshole. He thrives on this on the streets of San Francisco. And many writers love him for this, secretly, I think.

      He also understands that any pain writers go through – as in rejections and insults from editors – is part of the process of becoming a writer.

      But some editors love to be shit, especially if they think the current state of literature is shitty; and they love emerging writers who love their shit, buzzing around them like flies.

  210. Rudy

      Zyzzyva will probably get more subscribers, because of this. I think Howard feels he has nothing to lose. He’d love you to call him asshole. He thrives on this on the streets of San Francisco. And many writers love him for this, secretly, I think.

      He also understands that any pain writers go through – as in rejections and insults from editors – is part of the process of becoming a writer.

      But some editors love to be shit, especially if they think the current state of literature is shitty; and they love emerging writers who love their shit, buzzing around them like flies.

  211. wendell
  212. wendell