June 12th, 2009 / 3:54 pm
Uncategorized
Sam Pink
Uncategorized
I AM WATCHING FAMILY FEUD AND FANTASIZING ABOUT ONE OF THE CONTESTANTS AND I REMEMBERED SOMETHING
i asked chris higgs this question in an interview coming up. but i wanted to ask others too. i have heard many times, something along the lines of, “a man can’t write a woman, a white can’t write a black, a non-disabled can’t write a disabled, etc.” is this true? i am not sure how i feel about this. it seems pretty pervasive though. does this mean that it would be wrong for me to write about someone with a future? or who likes the grateful dead?
regardless of whether or not this is true, you should never write about someone who likes the grateful dead
regardless of whether or not this is true, you should never write about someone who likes the grateful dead
i think yes and no.
obviously if you haven’t walked the walk you can’t really talk the talk. sure you can posture to a certain point and some can posture better than others but it is just posturing at the root level.
have you ever tried to write from a chick’s pov? i have. what a motherfucking head ache that was. i gave up.
i think yes and no.
obviously if you haven’t walked the walk you can’t really talk the talk. sure you can posture to a certain point and some can posture better than others but it is just posturing at the root level.
have you ever tried to write from a chick’s pov? i have. what a motherfucking head ache that was. i gave up.
it all depends.
it depends on the story and the context.
there are no rules for this sort of thing.
numerous times over i’ve written from the POV of females, of the impoverished, of the dead, the articulate, the inarticulate.
writing from the POV of a woman does not mean you’re writing from the POV of ALL women.
taking a perspective on anything is posturing, to a certain extent. but if you establish a contract with your readers and stick to that contract, and don’t tear open your tissue of lies, then i think you’ve done your job.
it all depends.
it depends on the story and the context.
there are no rules for this sort of thing.
numerous times over i’ve written from the POV of females, of the impoverished, of the dead, the articulate, the inarticulate.
writing from the POV of a woman does not mean you’re writing from the POV of ALL women.
taking a perspective on anything is posturing, to a certain extent. but if you establish a contract with your readers and stick to that contract, and don’t tear open your tissue of lies, then i think you’ve done your job.
Almost half of my publications are written from the male pov.
Think if Tolstoy had someone tell him that? No Anna Karenina? Or if Flaubert hadn’t written MADAME BOVARY??????
No sci fi.
NO Patricia Highsmith, who wrote from a muderer’s POV all the time…she never murdered anyone, I’m fairly certain.
So, yeah, that is a rule I’d throw out the window….which reminds me of a book I threw out the window and then retrieved …meant to find…
all excellent points. a world without sci-fi seems scary, and kind of sci-fi in its own way.
all excellent points. a world without sci-fi seems scary, and kind of sci-fi in its own way.
You don’t like shopping?
You don’t like shopping?
sort of. i like to observe others shopping.
people observation is my second favorite drug.
sort of. i like to observe others shopping.
people observation is my second favorite drug.
yeah i think david touched on what i said but better.
as long as you posture correctly you are okay.
it is still just posturing but fuck not everything has to be perfect.
i used to think not. i’ve been proved wrong by several writers i greatly admire. and as a result i have written a couple stories in the female pov. one of them is in my thesis and i think it’s the best thing i’ve written. i posed this same question at a conference once, though, and it’s always interesting to hear opinions on it. i think for me, i have four sisters, and i’m very close with all of them. i’m close with my mother and wife. and i helped raise one of my nieces for the first year of her life. if all this doesn’t help then at least i know i can hit them up for advice if i’m stuck on something, or have them read it and tell me if i’m full of shit.
yeah i think david touched on what i said but better.
as long as you posture correctly you are okay.
it is still just posturing but fuck not everything has to be perfect.
i used to think not. i’ve been proved wrong by several writers i greatly admire. and as a result i have written a couple stories in the female pov. one of them is in my thesis and i think it’s the best thing i’ve written. i posed this same question at a conference once, though, and it’s always interesting to hear opinions on it. i think for me, i have four sisters, and i’m very close with all of them. i’m close with my mother and wife. and i helped raise one of my nieces for the first year of her life. if all this doesn’t help then at least i know i can hit them up for advice if i’m stuck on something, or have them read it and tell me if i’m full of shit.
only beards need to be perfect
only beards need to be perfect
I love the mall. It’s like watching cattle with credit cards.
I love the mall. It’s like watching cattle with credit cards.
i got that covered my friend.
my beard is twice the length of my dick.
fear it.
i got that covered my friend.
my beard is twice the length of my dick.
fear it.
man i learned a long time ago if i want to write from a chick’s pov all i do is go to 16 year old girl blogs and rip their shit off.
the only way i can do it.
womens be complicated yo.
male pov so much easier.
on that note, i’m shutting down my computer and going to the bar. have a good weekend, giant.
man i learned a long time ago if i want to write from a chick’s pov all i do is go to 16 year old girl blogs and rip their shit off.
the only way i can do it.
womens be complicated yo.
male pov so much easier.
on that note, i’m shutting down my computer and going to the bar. have a good weekend, giant.
gene,
i live where the most expensive mall resides. it’s called south coast plaza in costa mesa. i used to work across the street from it until i got fired for an opiate fueled midnight run in my boxer shorts.
they caught me on video.
sigh.
i am a fuck up.
but yeah you should come watch the cattle at this mall. fucking insane.
only mall i know where a shop has 5 pairs of shoes in it. that’s it.
gene,
i live where the most expensive mall resides. it’s called south coast plaza in costa mesa. i used to work across the street from it until i got fired for an opiate fueled midnight run in my boxer shorts.
they caught me on video.
sigh.
i am a fuck up.
but yeah you should come watch the cattle at this mall. fucking insane.
only mall i know where a shop has 5 pairs of shoes in it. that’s it.
man i really hope some time tonight david thinks “jereme’s beard is twice the length of his dick”
i really hope that.
man i really hope some time tonight david thinks “jereme’s beard is twice the length of his dick”
i really hope that.
At the risk of being the humorless prig around here, REALLY? “Chicks are so lame, man, all they care about is shopping and malls and credit cards and diamonds and OMG Jimmy Choo shoes.” REALLY? Do any of the nerdy book-obsessives around here even know ONE woman like that, much less all of us?
At the risk of being the humorless prig around here, REALLY? “Chicks are so lame, man, all they care about is shopping and malls and credit cards and diamonds and OMG Jimmy Choo shoes.” REALLY? Do any of the nerdy book-obsessives around here even know ONE woman like that, much less all of us?
I assumed this post was a joke in its entirety, and found it pretty funny, but it seems that some people are actually taking that old line at face value.
Seriously? Really? Dostoevsky was Satan because he wrote a really good devil?
I assumed this post was a joke in its entirety, and found it pretty funny, but it seems that some people are actually taking that old line at face value.
Seriously? Really? Dostoevsky was Satan because he wrote a really good devil?
sadly, i do know/have known girls like that. i have never bought into it as a stereotype, however. i have lots of respect for women, i think writing anything that you don’t know intimately is hard, but if it wasn’t, what would the point be?
“Seriously? Really? Dostoevsky was Satan because he wrote a really good devil?”
yes.
There is nothing wrong with sticking to something you feel works for you. Writing from the male pov was a good good thing for me. But- I rarely write in 1st person, never have once written in 2nd–so yeah. We all do our thing.
I love your beard.
sadly, i do know/have known girls like that. i have never bought into it as a stereotype, however. i have lots of respect for women, i think writing anything that you don’t know intimately is hard, but if it wasn’t, what would the point be?
“Seriously? Really? Dostoevsky was Satan because he wrote a really good devil?”
yes.
Where was this? On the Higg’s link? I am confused.
i have massive beard envy when i see pics of jereme
I was mostly yelling at Gene. But I think maybe he owns this whole popsicle stand or something? So maybe I should just shut up and go buy myself something pretty.
i have massive beard envy when i see pics of jereme
I was mostly yelling at Gene. But I think maybe he owns this whole popsicle stand or something? So maybe I should just shut up and go buy myself something pretty.
oops. I sort of blew through that. He’s fucking around. Dude is UXORIOUS, is my opinion. He was fully joking (I don’t really know, just guessing.)
rachel,
hi i’m not a nerd. i work in la and live in orange county. the stereotype you just described is the majority of women and young girls i meet out here.
so to answer your question, and you may not like this answer, but yes.
rachel,
hi i’m not a nerd. i work in la and live in orange county. the stereotype you just described is the majority of women and young girls i meet out here.
so to answer your question, and you may not like this answer, but yes.
oh you haven’t even seen it lately. holy fuck this thing is such a fuck you to corporate metrosexual capitalist america.
oh, totes, it’s almost as dumb as ‘write what you know’
i like what william t. vollmann said about that line, ‘since i know nothing about any subject it scarcely matters where i dabble’
of course, he pretty much just wrote about himself, or at least that’s what most people think
where is my face
oh you haven’t even seen it lately. holy fuck this thing is such a fuck you to corporate metrosexual capitalist america.
oh, totes, it’s almost as dumb as ‘write what you know’
i like what william t. vollmann said about that line, ‘since i know nothing about any subject it scarcely matters where i dabble’
of course, he pretty much just wrote about himself, or at least that’s what most people think
where is my face
haha-
this is funny.
htmlgiant is more fun than shopping. unless it’s where i work, in which case we could use the bidness.
htmlgiant is more fun than shopping. unless it’s where i work, in which case we could use the bidness.
i know a shopper when i see one and gene is a shopper.
he was really purdy dressed every day at awp.
that took some major shopping timez
i know a shopper when i see one and gene is a shopper.
he was really purdy dressed every day at awp.
that took some major shopping timez
The use of bidness just made me grin.
I like what a great diaper changer he comes off as. For real. That makes me fall in love. More than tennis playing. Wait, that may be a lie. I don’t know. I’m going out soon to drink. I scrubbed a tub today, therefore I get to drink.
thx, pr, i’ll be here all day, not really i’m a business man and i have important business things to do
btw, where is yr face, pr?
thx, pr, i’ll be here all day, not really i’m a business man and i have important business things to do
btw, where is yr face, pr?
Up above, david nailed it:
“writing from the POV of a woman does not mean you’re writing from the POV of ALL women.”
I can’t write from the POV of all women (or Woman in general), but I can write from the POV of the specific woman I’ve imagined.
Up above, david nailed it:
“writing from the POV of a woman does not mean you’re writing from the POV of ALL women.”
I can’t write from the POV of all women (or Woman in general), but I can write from the POV of the specific woman I’ve imagined.
I currently have no face or name. That should change at some point.
i aim to please
i aim to please
speaking of women i’ve imagined
“WEIRD SCIENCE” 4 LYFE
man i loved that movie as a kid
speaking of women i’ve imagined
“WEIRD SCIENCE” 4 LYFE
man i loved that movie as a kid
But can I write about a black disabled female deadhead who can see the future?
But can I write about a black disabled female deadhead who can see the future?
that would be neat
that would be neat
this is going backwards or something
this is going backwards or something
can the part be played by christopher lloyd?
can the part be played by christopher lloyd?
I can’t imagine anyone writes solely from their personal experience. In fact, I assume almost every story differs from the narrators complete knowledge and experience. The characters have jobs the author never worked or only did briefly, they life in cities the author never lived in or are fatter or taller or whatever.
So where does the line get cut off at?
People have noted examples that show anything is possible. It is probably true that most of the time a woman writing in the first person voice of a man or a white person writing in the first person voice of an african-american will not do it as well, but there are plenty of times it works too.
The formation in the post makes even less sense as it would seem to imply that you can’t even really have female characters if you are a male and doing third person POV.
I can’t imagine anyone writes solely from their personal experience. In fact, I assume almost every story differs from the narrators complete knowledge and experience. The characters have jobs the author never worked or only did briefly, they life in cities the author never lived in or are fatter or taller or whatever.
So where does the line get cut off at?
People have noted examples that show anything is possible. It is probably true that most of the time a woman writing in the first person voice of a man or a white person writing in the first person voice of an african-american will not do it as well, but there are plenty of times it works too.
The formation in the post makes even less sense as it would seem to imply that you can’t even really have female characters if you are a male and doing third person POV.
early in my undergrad time all my stories were completely devoid of female characters.
early in my undergrad time all my stories were completely devoid of female characters.
[…] The mighty Sam Pink asked an interesting question over at my favorite HTML Giant. […]
I’ve got plenty of female characters in my stories, but almost always dude protagnoists. I’m actually kind of debating if I should insert a bunch of female perspective stories to balance out the collection…. but maybe that’s just forcing something pointlessly.
I’ve got plenty of female characters in my stories, but almost always dude protagnoists. I’m actually kind of debating if I should insert a bunch of female perspective stories to balance out the collection…. but maybe that’s just forcing something pointlessly.
i think they come or they don’t. i wouldn’t force ’em. the story i included in my thesis started out from the husband’s pov and during an early revision i switched to his wife’s, it just made more sense for the story, and things moved nicely from there. i do think it’s always a good exercise to try out different povs, or change the pov in a revision, even if it doesn’t stick.
i think they come or they don’t. i wouldn’t force ’em. the story i included in my thesis started out from the husband’s pov and during an early revision i switched to his wife’s, it just made more sense for the story, and things moved nicely from there. i do think it’s always a good exercise to try out different povs, or change the pov in a revision, even if it doesn’t stick.
You’re always welcome to yell at me.
My mother was a fashion model. I know a lot of women who like to shop, and I’ve been shopping with them.
You’re always welcome to yell at me.
My mother was a fashion model. I know a lot of women who like to shop, and I’ve been shopping with them.
And I’m sorry for making a tacky joke.
And I’m sorry for making a tacky joke.
pr is the best.
I put together a crib today.
pr is the best.
I put together a crib today.
If we couldn’t write from the POVs of others, genre fiction wouldn’t exist. There is a certain authenticity when people write who they are and what they know, but you can stand outside of something and still write about it well. It takes talent, but it can be done. I’m a black woman but I don’t only write about black women. That would be pretty boring and frankly, the idea that we can only write what we are is a little insulting. It’s called creative writing for a reason.
If we couldn’t write from the POVs of others, genre fiction wouldn’t exist. There is a certain authenticity when people write who they are and what they know, but you can stand outside of something and still write about it well. It takes talent, but it can be done. I’m a black woman but I don’t only write about black women. That would be pretty boring and frankly, the idea that we can only write what we are is a little insulting. It’s called creative writing for a reason.
Yep. Heck, technically, if we can’t write from the POVs of others, fiction (genre or otherwise) can’t exist.
I figure a writer should write a story from whatever perspective one chooses. Just always remember that you’re ass is going to get nailed if you only use half of it.
Yep. Heck, technically, if we can’t write from the POVs of others, fiction (genre or otherwise) can’t exist.
I figure a writer should write a story from whatever perspective one chooses. Just always remember that you’re ass is going to get nailed if you only use half of it.
Gene, I haven’t yet clicked on your crib thing. But man, you are my kind of man. Take care of babes? I get weak in the knees. I have four boys in my house, two of them are taller than me and 13 and good lord. Going to go hide from them and smoke a cigarette and get depressed that my sons have weak mustaches and hide their facebook chats from me.
‘Just always remember that you’re ass is going to get nailed if you only use half of it.’
Can you expand on that in regards to first person narrative?
‘Just always remember that you’re ass is going to get nailed if you only use half of it.’
Can you expand on that in regards to first person narrative?
I love this. So I say THANK YOU SAM PINK! He brought up a valid discussion, and it is true that people say (sadly) “write what you know”. And whatever that means, I will say that THAT works for some, but I need to pretend. And that pretend is this part of me that grows grossly in my mind, and unfortunately has proven I write from a male POV very well. I’m a daddy’s girl. Since I was 5 (sorry) my whole life has been zoning my eyes and heart at men. OK, not sorry in that I know soooooo many men who have spent their entire emotional lives trying to get inside the lives and pussies of women. Let’s get to know each other.
One thing- Like one of my idols -Patricia Highsmith- you know, she wrote from her heart. My heart can be very male oriented. And not. She wrote when it made her have a fever…God bless. She never wanted to be put in some place about it. She was though. But she did what she did. She couldn’t help it.
HI! I’m drunk.
9:30pm, chicago time
i thought about jereme’s dick. i’m at the bar.
good job, jereme
9:30pm, chicago time
i thought about jereme’s dick. i’m at the bar.
good job, jereme
pr,
PENGUINS WIN!!!!!!
pr,
PENGUINS WIN!!!!!!
that’s no way to pick up girls
that’s no way to pick up girls
Possibly. I think one can cheat a reader, or one can try to cheat a reader, by not honestly trying to understand the voice they are choosing to adopt and instead fall back on received wisdom or familiar stereotypes. And when that happens, some readers are going to notice and they are going to point it out to you.
Possibly. I think one can cheat a reader, or one can try to cheat a reader, by not honestly trying to understand the voice they are choosing to adopt and instead fall back on received wisdom or familiar stereotypes. And when that happens, some readers are going to notice and they are going to point it out to you.
Now imagining jereme picking up girls with his dick like the incredible Mr. Lifto.
Now imagining jereme picking up girls with his dick like the incredible Mr. Lifto.
No.
No.
well, now i just look crazy
can’t be helped, i guess
i am so angry about technology
so angry
well, now i just look crazy
can’t be helped, i guess
i am so angry about technology
so angry
uh, i woke up sick as hell and just took some Nyqs.
After reading this thread, not sure it helped to get tired and fall asleep, what with the image of misognyistic Gene and long-bearded Jereme.
Rachel, I have watched commercials for Sex and the City and that is where I get my information about women. As Jereme can tell you, I have also watched an episode (or two, ahem) of the Bachelor…and that is a good place to learn about women. I kid, I kid. In all sincerity (if that is even possible for a JA like me and/or anyone on the internets and googles…) when I think of women in stories I can’t help but think of them as characters from stories of Mary Miller and Rachel Yoder…who may or may not be you. I would love my characters to be like such characters. In fact, I’d like any of my characters to be like such characters. The sad truth of my shitty writing is that essentiallly every narrator/protagonist in my stories is some iteration/version (a true synonym or more like sardonic/sarcastic?) of myself. That is why I will soon take another 5-6 years off from writing and get my fat ass in shape and sleep a fuck of a lot better.
uh, i woke up sick as hell and just took some Nyqs.
After reading this thread, not sure it helped to get tired and fall asleep, what with the image of misognyistic Gene and long-bearded Jereme.
Rachel, I have watched commercials for Sex and the City and that is where I get my information about women. As Jereme can tell you, I have also watched an episode (or two, ahem) of the Bachelor…and that is a good place to learn about women. I kid, I kid. In all sincerity (if that is even possible for a JA like me and/or anyone on the internets and googles…) when I think of women in stories I can’t help but think of them as characters from stories of Mary Miller and Rachel Yoder…who may or may not be you. I would love my characters to be like such characters. In fact, I’d like any of my characters to be like such characters. The sad truth of my shitty writing is that essentiallly every narrator/protagonist in my stories is some iteration/version (a true synonym or more like sardonic/sarcastic?) of myself. That is why I will soon take another 5-6 years off from writing and get my fat ass in shape and sleep a fuck of a lot better.
is there a fucking law that says i have to have one horrid typo – misognystic. fucking loser. for punitive reasons i am now going to smack my dick around until i fall asleep.
is there a fucking law that says i have to have one horrid typo – misognystic. fucking loser. for punitive reasons i am now going to smack my dick around until i fall asleep.
and of course some iteration/version of me may be fictional but it’s still basically me I think. i have the imagination of a flaccid cock.
and of course some iteration/version of me may be fictional but it’s still basically me I think. i have the imagination of a flaccid cock.
I write a lot of pornography. But, I have never done pornography. I only know pornography from watching it on TV. Or computer. So, I don’t think that it is necessary to write what you know because I don’t know very much, really. That’s why I rip-off other peoples’ texts and rearrange them. Or make stuff up from art books and stuff. I spend too much time in my room.
I write a lot of pornography. But, I have never done pornography. I only know pornography from watching it on TV. Or computer. So, I don’t think that it is necessary to write what you know because I don’t know very much, really. That’s why I rip-off other peoples’ texts and rearrange them. Or make stuff up from art books and stuff. I spend too much time in my room.
Science fiction is immoral, because it is lying. As is all literature. or so said my fundy granddad.
Science fiction is immoral, because it is lying. As is all literature. or so said my fundy granddad.
I missed it??? So sad! GO PENGUINS! I’m hungover.
I missed it??? So sad! GO PENGUINS! I’m hungover.
HA!! i’d like to go w/ this as my answer also.
HA!! i’d like to go w/ this as my answer also.
I think it really depends on the story. Like in BB’s Ever, the main character is female, but actually the main character might have been the house and did it matter that the narrator is female? I don’t think it mattered as much as it would have to the Sex and the City books (that is not to say a man couldn’t have written those).
But also it matters how much you know about the author, like in Gold by Dan Rhodes where the main character is a lesbian. She did seem sort of boyish at times – is that because she’s a lesbian or because she was written by a man? What if I didn’t know Dan Rhodes was a man?
It depends on the writer, like one of my gripes with Tony Oneill’s Murder Mile was that his female characters were (from what I recall now) one-dimensional and sidelined. Is that because he’s a man? Or because the story was simply about a man? Maybe it is my own insecurities of being sidelined by the men in my life, who knows.
I think my point is you can’t just say write this or don’t write that. It depends on too many variables. How about instead of ‘write what you know’ just ‘write what the fuck you feel like’.
I think it really depends on the story. Like in BB’s Ever, the main character is female, but actually the main character might have been the house and did it matter that the narrator is female? I don’t think it mattered as much as it would have to the Sex and the City books (that is not to say a man couldn’t have written those).
But also it matters how much you know about the author, like in Gold by Dan Rhodes where the main character is a lesbian. She did seem sort of boyish at times – is that because she’s a lesbian or because she was written by a man? What if I didn’t know Dan Rhodes was a man?
It depends on the writer, like one of my gripes with Tony Oneill’s Murder Mile was that his female characters were (from what I recall now) one-dimensional and sidelined. Is that because he’s a man? Or because the story was simply about a man? Maybe it is my own insecurities of being sidelined by the men in my life, who knows.
I think my point is you can’t just say write this or don’t write that. It depends on too many variables. How about instead of ‘write what you know’ just ‘write what the fuck you feel like’.