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The Electric (Literature) Slide: Boogie Woogie Woogie
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Whenever a new literary magazine debuts I am intrigued because it means there’s one more group of people in the world who support words, writing and writers. I have found Electric Literature particularly interesting because they actually pay (and quite well) their writers. They have a slick, aggressive advertising campaign with ads like this and this and others suggesting that their magazine offers “reading that is bad for you.” I’m not sure what that means. The writing in the first issue didn’t feel dangerous.
I’ve been even more intrigued by the Electric Literature rhetoric, positioning the magazine as innovative and groundbreaking as if they are doing things no one else has ever done before. One of the ways in which they are new is that the magazine is available in many formats including print, iPhone, Kindle and ebook versions. They are not the first nor will they be the last magazine to take a multimodal approach but they certainly are the most vocal about it. They’ve also released a short story trailer and a sentence animation. I hate literature based trailers so for me, those efforts don’t represent innovation. That’s neither here nor there.
I bought the first issue of EL on my Kindle and enjoyed it a great deal. I’ll be buying the next issue as well. They are publishing great writing but I have consistently been left with the sense that the marketing message is inconsistent with the product. There were no surprises in the first issue–all the stories were written by very well established writers, offering fairly traditional (and excellent) literary fare. I understand why the editors made that choice but again, I struggle with the notion that they are, as they state on their website, “a light on the horizon.”
It is impossible and unfair to judge a magazine on the basis of one issue. Only time will tell just how electric Electric Literature will be.
Still, as I think about the magazine, I always feel like I’m missing something. They are well-funded, yes, but I do not see the light. What are your thoughts on Electric Literature? What would it take for a magazine to be truly innovative, in this day and age?
Tags: electric literature, magazine, Marketing
Is the marketing message ever consistent with the product? I think subtle(or overt) misrepresentation of a product is par for the course. They’re trying to sell you something you don’t particularly need.
For a magazine to be truly innovative…..hm….blank.
Nice post, Roxane.
Is the marketing message ever consistent with the product? I think subtle(or overt) misrepresentation of a product is par for the course. They’re trying to sell you something you don’t particularly need.
For a magazine to be truly innovative…..hm….blank.
Nice post, Roxane.
I just stumbled across them as well. Very cool, love the cover of the first issue, the ad campaign (I’ve been an art director for 14 year) and the PAY, wow. I sent in something already, we’ll see. Not holding my breath. But I like that they are trying, they are putting the effort out there and even if they aren’t as revolutionary and cutting edge as they’d like to THINK they are, maybe in time they will be. They have my support. Thanks for the post Roxane.
Peace,
Richard
I just stumbled across them as well. Very cool, love the cover of the first issue, the ad campaign (I’ve been an art director for 14 year) and the PAY, wow. I sent in something already, we’ll see. Not holding my breath. But I like that they are trying, they are putting the effort out there and even if they aren’t as revolutionary and cutting edge as they’d like to THINK they are, maybe in time they will be. They have my support. Thanks for the post Roxane.
Peace,
Richard
Roxane,
There is a F.A.Q. thing on the site that, I think, tries to answer your question regarding “danger” and the magazine being “bad for you” and everything. I don’t know. It’s weird. Try it on.
How long has this magazine been around? They have so many blurbs. And Michael Cunningham?Fame-wise, that’s like getting a piece from John Banville (who I would gladly take for the Tyrant, much more than Cunningham, I don’t even think I would ever publish Cunningham, no offense EL and other Cunningham lovers but Banville makes Cunningham look ridic) When are blurbs going to die? I know you have to use them (though not quite sure lit journals should have them) but there is something about blurbs that are so sleazy. I do not know what it is. Nothing against Sam, but do you think Lipsyte really liked Indecision by Kunkel? Seems unlikely, but maybe I’m wrong. We will have blurbs on Tyrant Books titles and I have been gathering them in the most honest way I can think of: asking writers I know who I think would like the book to read it and only if they liked it, maybe offer a few words. In one case, a writer I know read a book we are publishing and did not like it, so did not blurb it. Yeh, a little inconvenient, but NICE. I love that shit. I know that blurbs kind of help you zone in on an author by way of other authors (who you may like) saying they think the book blurbed is good, but something has always felt wrong to me about it. Some blurbs are fucking fantastic (Butler’s on Baby Leg and, incidentally, Lipsyte on Marten’s Waste), but don’t a large chunk of blurbers seem to use the same language? Like the exact same fucking words over and over and over? It’s like there’s a scrabble bag with blurb words in it that blurbers have to use or something bananas like that. Some writers put themselves, wholly, into a blurb and I can appreciate this. But don’t so many writers, when blurbing, lose every ounce of their identity and style once they are blurbing? I have given a few blurbs and I cannot say they were all honest. I think I was just excited by the opportunity and wanted to show off and go ga-ga for a few lines that would be on a cover. Maybe I am soaked with guilt and this is my problem, Maybe not though. Jesus, why am I talking so much? I’m so sorry. I’ll stop.
Oh, good luck to Electric Literature! Well wishes all around the fountain!
Roxane,
There is a F.A.Q. thing on the site that, I think, tries to answer your question regarding “danger” and the magazine being “bad for you” and everything. I don’t know. It’s weird. Try it on.
How long has this magazine been around? They have so many blurbs. And Michael Cunningham?Fame-wise, that’s like getting a piece from John Banville (who I would gladly take for the Tyrant, much more than Cunningham, I don’t even think I would ever publish Cunningham, no offense EL and other Cunningham lovers but Banville makes Cunningham look ridic) When are blurbs going to die? I know you have to use them (though not quite sure lit journals should have them) but there is something about blurbs that are so sleazy. I do not know what it is. Nothing against Sam, but do you think Lipsyte really liked Indecision by Kunkel? Seems unlikely, but maybe I’m wrong. We will have blurbs on Tyrant Books titles and I have been gathering them in the most honest way I can think of: asking writers I know who I think would like the book to read it and only if they liked it, maybe offer a few words. In one case, a writer I know read a book we are publishing and did not like it, so did not blurb it. Yeh, a little inconvenient, but NICE. I love that shit. I know that blurbs kind of help you zone in on an author by way of other authors (who you may like) saying they think the book blurbed is good, but something has always felt wrong to me about it. Some blurbs are fucking fantastic (Butler’s on Baby Leg and, incidentally, Lipsyte on Marten’s Waste), but don’t a large chunk of blurbers seem to use the same language? Like the exact same fucking words over and over and over? It’s like there’s a scrabble bag with blurb words in it that blurbers have to use or something bananas like that. Some writers put themselves, wholly, into a blurb and I can appreciate this. But don’t so many writers, when blurbing, lose every ounce of their identity and style once they are blurbing? I have given a few blurbs and I cannot say they were all honest. I think I was just excited by the opportunity and wanted to show off and go ga-ga for a few lines that would be on a cover. Maybe I am soaked with guilt and this is my problem, Maybe not though. Jesus, why am I talking so much? I’m so sorry. I’ll stop.
Oh, good luck to Electric Literature! Well wishes all around the fountain!
I take it their ads are appealing to folks not reading htlmgiant. that woman’s freaky tongue and all, that is sorta like telling jocks and scientisty types to check it out, maybe?
to the extent they are claiming to be moving the current lit world forward, i don’t see it either, again assuming we’re talking about those already reading/writing/editing/subbing.
but, if they can get non-readers to start reading…i’ll do the chicken dance and post it on youtube (yeah, again, fine, whatever, i was hammered)
I take it their ads are appealing to folks not reading htlmgiant. that woman’s freaky tongue and all, that is sorta like telling jocks and scientisty types to check it out, maybe?
to the extent they are claiming to be moving the current lit world forward, i don’t see it either, again assuming we’re talking about those already reading/writing/editing/subbing.
but, if they can get non-readers to start reading…i’ll do the chicken dance and post it on youtube (yeah, again, fine, whatever, i was hammered)
“It’s like there’s a scrabble bag with blurb words in it that blurbers have to use or something bananas like that.” This evokes the Kevin Wilson “scrabble collector” story…picture blurbers in a big, bright room with words and requests dropping on them.
“I think I was just excited by the opportunity and wanted to show off and go ga-ga for a few lines that would be on a cover.”
love the honesty. very apt, given what i’ve herd. some writer friends much more established have told me that “big name blurbers” almost never say no and rarely read more than an excerpt or story of the work. it’s good pub for them so unless that excerpt/story horrifyingly blows…they’ll do the blurb. plus, sure as fuck, it’s flattering to be asked.
i often see blurbs and think of the random “critics” saying “it’s a great movie!” to ISHTAR and OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS. yeah, many are sorta kitschy sounding, carnival barker like.
of course, if someone asks me to blurb, i might re consider my stance.
“It’s like there’s a scrabble bag with blurb words in it that blurbers have to use or something bananas like that.” This evokes the Kevin Wilson “scrabble collector” story…picture blurbers in a big, bright room with words and requests dropping on them.
“I think I was just excited by the opportunity and wanted to show off and go ga-ga for a few lines that would be on a cover.”
love the honesty. very apt, given what i’ve herd. some writer friends much more established have told me that “big name blurbers” almost never say no and rarely read more than an excerpt or story of the work. it’s good pub for them so unless that excerpt/story horrifyingly blows…they’ll do the blurb. plus, sure as fuck, it’s flattering to be asked.
i often see blurbs and think of the random “critics” saying “it’s a great movie!” to ISHTAR and OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS. yeah, many are sorta kitschy sounding, carnival barker like.
of course, if someone asks me to blurb, i might re consider my stance.
lit mags that really seem to be “pushing things forward” are abjective and diagram, noo journal and mud luscious. no colony. every time a new issue comes out you know you’re going to see things you haven’t seen before. i just don’t buy that a magazine can be born and immediately start advancing literature into unknown hemispheres. it needs to establish itself first, build a community, and work from there. these things don’t just happen because someone decides hey, let’s advance the written word.
lit mags that really seem to be “pushing things forward” are abjective and diagram, noo journal and mud luscious. no colony. every time a new issue comes out you know you’re going to see things you haven’t seen before. i just don’t buy that a magazine can be born and immediately start advancing literature into unknown hemispheres. it needs to establish itself first, build a community, and work from there. these things don’t just happen because someone decides hey, let’s advance the written word.
“i just don’t buy that a magazine can be born and immediately start advancing literature into unknown hemispheres.”
I think they can. It takes a little longer putting together the first couple of issues, but you can make some pretty big turns in one or two books. Well, not everyone I guess.
“i just don’t buy that a magazine can be born and immediately start advancing literature into unknown hemispheres.”
I think they can. It takes a little longer putting together the first couple of issues, but you can make some pretty big turns in one or two books. Well, not everyone I guess.
you know, that’s probably a better/less reactionary way to look at it. i’m certainly not going to argue with you RE this, because the tyrant seems to be something unique. so maybe my question for you would be: what were your intentions when you got started? how did you find your magazine’s “purpose?” did you always set out to be “different” or did it just happen that way?
you know, that’s probably a better/less reactionary way to look at it. i’m certainly not going to argue with you RE this, because the tyrant seems to be something unique. so maybe my question for you would be: what were your intentions when you got started? how did you find your magazine’s “purpose?” did you always set out to be “different” or did it just happen that way?
See what they do with their second issue. Hopefully, they’ll cull from the slush pile a bit for their later issues. We’ll see.
See what they do with their second issue. Hopefully, they’ll cull from the slush pile a bit for their later issues. We’ll see.
gian,
agree with the blurb take. i fucking love sam lipsyte but dude is a blurb whore. his shit is on eeeeeeeeevvverything.
gian,
agree with the blurb take. i fucking love sam lipsyte but dude is a blurb whore. his shit is on eeeeeeeeevvverything.
Man, tough question. I think I was interning at FSG and thought, “Shit, man, it’ll take YEARS to get to the job I want this way, so fuck it, let’s start our own shit.” There were a couple of others in the beginning of the Tyrant and we all agreed that no other mag was consistent. Some mags had a few good things in them, but none of them really stuck to their guns from first page to last. It’s hard to stick to your guns. I have become unstuck myself a few times and it sucks. But I really had no proper idea in my mind on starting a journal besides certain writers I wanted to publish and I wanted all the stories to fucking sing. This was not easy and I am not saying I ever accomplish it, then or now. And this is such a fucking cliched answer, and sorry to bore you, but I wanted to do something concerning language. But then I discovered that not EVERYTHING I liked was languagey, that some stuff I just thought was beautiful. There is such a thin-line between avant-garde and bullshit. Like, I have never understood why certain poetry is laid out as it is. I hate spaces/breaks throughout the page. This is really showing my amateur colors here but I like big blocks of text. The darker the page, the better. The writer loses me when there is too much white on the page. It’s like dead air. Fill it in, man. A period has all the power (and so much more) than any amount of breaks. I mean, what is the difference if the next graph starts 4 lines down instead of 3? Oh really? That’s the difference? I still don’t get it. There should be paragraph breaks and that’s it. I know everyone does not feel this way and I guess some writers can pull it off, but not many. I’m sorry. Like I said, I’m a chump and never had any structured writing or poetry classes in my life (until this summer, but there was nothing about structure in that!) so I can’t talk technically about writing.
Back to how I started the Journal, one big thing: I definitely did NOT want any of my stories to have this title: “Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Guest Starring Jean-Paul Sartre” or something as equally fucking retarded. You know? I don’t know, man. Tough question.
Man, tough question. I think I was interning at FSG and thought, “Shit, man, it’ll take YEARS to get to the job I want this way, so fuck it, let’s start our own shit.” There were a couple of others in the beginning of the Tyrant and we all agreed that no other mag was consistent. Some mags had a few good things in them, but none of them really stuck to their guns from first page to last. It’s hard to stick to your guns. I have become unstuck myself a few times and it sucks. But I really had no proper idea in my mind on starting a journal besides certain writers I wanted to publish and I wanted all the stories to fucking sing. This was not easy and I am not saying I ever accomplish it, then or now. And this is such a fucking cliched answer, and sorry to bore you, but I wanted to do something concerning language. But then I discovered that not EVERYTHING I liked was languagey, that some stuff I just thought was beautiful. There is such a thin-line between avant-garde and bullshit. Like, I have never understood why certain poetry is laid out as it is. I hate spaces/breaks throughout the page. This is really showing my amateur colors here but I like big blocks of text. The darker the page, the better. The writer loses me when there is too much white on the page. It’s like dead air. Fill it in, man. A period has all the power (and so much more) than any amount of breaks. I mean, what is the difference if the next graph starts 4 lines down instead of 3? Oh really? That’s the difference? I still don’t get it. There should be paragraph breaks and that’s it. I know everyone does not feel this way and I guess some writers can pull it off, but not many. I’m sorry. Like I said, I’m a chump and never had any structured writing or poetry classes in my life (until this summer, but there was nothing about structure in that!) so I can’t talk technically about writing.
Back to how I started the Journal, one big thing: I definitely did NOT want any of my stories to have this title: “Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Guest Starring Jean-Paul Sartre” or something as equally fucking retarded. You know? I don’t know, man. Tough question.
This is only their FIRST issue?? Wow.
This is only their FIRST issue?? Wow.
It totally is.
It totally is.
Agreed, in terms of getting unknown writers you kind of have to start with established writers (if you can) for your first issue because people aren’t going to send their best work to the slush pile of an unknown magazine. We gotta let them put out a few issues before judging how many lesser known voices they will use.
Agreed, in terms of getting unknown writers you kind of have to start with established writers (if you can) for your first issue because people aren’t going to send their best work to the slush pile of an unknown magazine. We gotta let them put out a few issues before judging how many lesser known voices they will use.
Exactly, Lincoln. It sets the tone and shows they are serious.
Exactly, Lincoln. It sets the tone and shows they are serious.
I guess I find it kind of “electric” that they pay so well. That’s somewhat revolutionary, at least from an author’s perspective.
But I realize that’s not the way they’re using the word “electric” or the idea of innovation.
Still, I’m all for places that can cough up coin, and do so without a shady business model based on large reading fees, or becoming a contest factory. And I say that as an editor for a publication that doesn’t pay, yet, but is trying very very hard to become a publication that pays.
I guess I find it kind of “electric” that they pay so well. That’s somewhat revolutionary, at least from an author’s perspective.
But I realize that’s not the way they’re using the word “electric” or the idea of innovation.
Still, I’m all for places that can cough up coin, and do so without a shady business model based on large reading fees, or becoming a contest factory. And I say that as an editor for a publication that doesn’t pay, yet, but is trying very very hard to become a publication that pays.
Yeh. It took about a year to put our first one. One of the first guys we got was Sam Michel and then dropped his name to others I solicited. It helped. Then the first issue came out and was basically a 200 lb. business card. It still amazes me how generous a lot of writers were. We had one issue and so many writers I love contributed. In retrospect, I am not entirely sure they weren’t just taking pity on us.
Yeh. It took about a year to put our first one. One of the first guys we got was Sam Michel and then dropped his name to others I solicited. It helped. Then the first issue came out and was basically a 200 lb. business card. It still amazes me how generous a lot of writers were. We had one issue and so many writers I love contributed. In retrospect, I am not entirely sure they weren’t just taking pity on us.
Yeah we’ve had a lot of help with awesome writers giving us stuff for Gigantic (esp. our upcoming issue). Writers are nice people.
Yeah we’ve had a lot of help with awesome writers giving us stuff for Gigantic (esp. our upcoming issue). Writers are nice people.
Saying you want to publish innovative fiction by unknown writers is like saying you want to date someone who has a good sense of humor. There is an understanding that they are full of shit, as we all are in some ways.
When I saw Zoetrope: All Story say close to the same thing and then republish an Alice Munro story that had been published in the New Yorker and then published in one of her books (by the way, it was the one made into the film by Sarah Polley, a kind of tie-in to the release) some years ago I knew what kind of world we were living in.
Saying you want to publish innovative fiction by unknown writers is like saying you want to date someone who has a good sense of humor. There is an understanding that they are full of shit, as we all are in some ways.
When I saw Zoetrope: All Story say close to the same thing and then republish an Alice Munro story that had been published in the New Yorker and then published in one of her books (by the way, it was the one made into the film by Sarah Polley, a kind of tie-in to the release) some years ago I knew what kind of world we were living in.
“Saying you want to publish innovative fiction by unknown writers is like saying you want to date someone who has a good sense of humor.”
Well said, Greg. How many litmags promote themselves by saying “We’re looking for staid, conventional fiction that ratifies everything we already think we know about art and the world. Narratives of cautious realism only, please, ending in psychological epiphanies” etc etc, even though that’s what they do?
A great article on that topic by Dan Green, “Empty Rhetoric: Innovative Fiction and the American Literary Magazine,” from a past issue of Dalkey Archive Press’s CONTEXT magazine:
http://www.dalkeyarchive.com/article/show/234
“Saying you want to publish innovative fiction by unknown writers is like saying you want to date someone who has a good sense of humor.”
Well said, Greg. How many litmags promote themselves by saying “We’re looking for staid, conventional fiction that ratifies everything we already think we know about art and the world. Narratives of cautious realism only, please, ending in psychological epiphanies” etc etc, even though that’s what they do?
A great article on that topic by Dan Green, “Empty Rhetoric: Innovative Fiction and the American Literary Magazine,” from a past issue of Dalkey Archive Press’s CONTEXT magazine:
http://www.dalkeyarchive.com/article/show/234
i wonder though, where these people are coming from in their literary past. i sat through a workshop where a student handed in a standard 500 word piece of flash fiction, something you’d see on many many flash sites if it was written a little better… but the teacher just kept going on and on about how innovative and experimental the writing was. how new and fresh, blah blah blah. and im just thinking, really? are you out of your fucking mind. this is standard dribble.
so what im saying is. maybe for them. for where they came from personally and the audience they are trying to appeal to (i like erlewine’s answer) then maybe they are innovative and cutting edge.
i think maybe i’d like to hear from other people who started up lit mags. if you didnt think you were doing something new or different or innovative (no matter if that proved to be true or not once you actually realized the depth of online lit) what was your reasoning for jumping in?
i wonder though, where these people are coming from in their literary past. i sat through a workshop where a student handed in a standard 500 word piece of flash fiction, something you’d see on many many flash sites if it was written a little better… but the teacher just kept going on and on about how innovative and experimental the writing was. how new and fresh, blah blah blah. and im just thinking, really? are you out of your fucking mind. this is standard dribble.
so what im saying is. maybe for them. for where they came from personally and the audience they are trying to appeal to (i like erlewine’s answer) then maybe they are innovative and cutting edge.
i think maybe i’d like to hear from other people who started up lit mags. if you didnt think you were doing something new or different or innovative (no matter if that proved to be true or not once you actually realized the depth of online lit) what was your reasoning for jumping in?
One of the reasons, the one that I keep forgetting, is that starting a magazine was supposed to be something fun and enjoyable. Sometimes I forget that.
One of the reasons, the one that I keep forgetting, is that starting a magazine was supposed to be something fun and enjoyable. Sometimes I forget that.
Right on. It’s supposed to be a labor of love, but there is that LOVE part there at the end. They don’t call it a labor of HATE. Although, I suppose some may.
Right on. It’s supposed to be a labor of love, but there is that LOVE part there at the end. They don’t call it a labor of HATE. Although, I suppose some may.
yeah, thats how i feel too. my first experience with lit mags was helping out aaron read submissions for hobart and i remember really just talking and drinking and having a shitload of fun, so thats what got me hooked.
i hope thats the case for everyone, i just wonder what other people think.
I hear ya, man. Sometimes I just can’t help myself (or others, mostly others) from getting uptight. The endeavor of a lit mag should be taken seriously, but the whining should be immediately presented a beer and a cigarette and a few minutes outside in the rain to try and remember if one still enjoys what they have gotten themselves into.
yeah, thats how i feel too. my first experience with lit mags was helping out aaron read submissions for hobart and i remember really just talking and drinking and having a shitload of fun, so thats what got me hooked.
i hope thats the case for everyone, i just wonder what other people think.
I hear ya, man. Sometimes I just can’t help myself (or others, mostly others) from getting uptight. The endeavor of a lit mag should be taken seriously, but the whining should be immediately presented a beer and a cigarette and a few minutes outside in the rain to try and remember if one still enjoys what they have gotten themselves into.
i started a magazine with a friend because i really just wanted an excuse to go over to his house and smoke cigarettes and drink and read stories out loud together. we did three issues of that, had readings, and moved on. it was a really great time and was never really meant to be anything beyond that.
“Saying you want to publish innovative fiction by unknown writers is like saying you want to date someone who has a good sense of humor.”
Yeah, that’s hilarious.
i started a magazine with a friend because i really just wanted an excuse to go over to his house and smoke cigarettes and drink and read stories out loud together. we did three issues of that, had readings, and moved on. it was a really great time and was never really meant to be anything beyond that.
“Saying you want to publish innovative fiction by unknown writers is like saying you want to date someone who has a good sense of humor.”
Yeah, that’s hilarious.
i do like that idea gian. i like it alot. for me that is one of the most interesting aspects of watching lit mags progress. when they go from drinking bourbon and talking writing and having fun, to becoming “serious” about their endeavor.
how does that happen?
and at what point do you know you have something worth taking seriously?
and is there a different attitude about journals that start out “serious” and “earnest” and ones that seemngly start from drunk friends getting bored?
or is there even a difference?
is it all perception?
is this too many questions?
f
u
c
k
i do like that idea gian. i like it alot. for me that is one of the most interesting aspects of watching lit mags progress. when they go from drinking bourbon and talking writing and having fun, to becoming “serious” about their endeavor.
how does that happen?
and at what point do you know you have something worth taking seriously?
and is there a different attitude about journals that start out “serious” and “earnest” and ones that seemngly start from drunk friends getting bored?
or is there even a difference?
is it all perception?
is this too many questions?
f
u
c
k
ha, ha, i like that story, greg
ha, ha, i like that story, greg
This is my immediate thought. What readers of htmlgiant consider innovative isn’t necessarily what your average person does. Our bar is different.
This is my immediate thought. What readers of htmlgiant consider innovative isn’t necessarily what your average person does. Our bar is different.
i think maybe i’d like to hear from other people who started up lit mags. if you didnt think you were doing something new or different or innovative (no matter if that proved to be true or not once you actually realized the depth of online lit) what was your reasoning for jumping in?
While I think we at Gigantic have an idea for something somewhat new, I don’t’ really see any problem with someone starting a magazine to just make a solid great product of great fiction.
i think maybe i’d like to hear from other people who started up lit mags. if you didnt think you were doing something new or different or innovative (no matter if that proved to be true or not once you actually realized the depth of online lit) what was your reasoning for jumping in?
While I think we at Gigantic have an idea for something somewhat new, I don’t’ really see any problem with someone starting a magazine to just make a solid great product of great fiction.
I really enjoy all the magazines you mention here. I am always astounded (confused, intrigued) by the work these magazines publish.
I really enjoy all the magazines you mention here. I am always astounded (confused, intrigued) by the work these magazines publish.
The pay is amazing but I wonder how they will sustain it.
And yes, large reading fees or all contests all the time is not a business model that appeals to me in any way.
We too are working on paying contributors and it is a real challenge. Our issue is 240 pages and even if offered a token payment of $5/page or something, that would be $1200 on top of the $4800 it costs to print the thing. Still, we have plans and ideas and hopefully one of these things will pan out.
The pay is amazing but I wonder how they will sustain it.
And yes, large reading fees or all contests all the time is not a business model that appeals to me in any way.
We too are working on paying contributors and it is a real challenge. Our issue is 240 pages and even if offered a token payment of $5/page or something, that would be $1200 on top of the $4800 it costs to print the thing. Still, we have plans and ideas and hopefully one of these things will pan out.
Well, I guess one knows that it isn’t going to be all fun and games. The amount (and character) of people one is immediately forced to deal with can be brutal. This sucks, but kind of like a party sucks. Because most people at any party are assholes, but you gotta sift and elbow through the assholes to find your friends. I think one should hope that they will be taken seriously, but not too seriously? Like, I always hear shit that our stories are mostly about too serious and sad, fucked up shit. But I guess that is what I like, or maybe that is what triggers great writing. Of course, not all sad fucked up shit is good. That would be silly. We have published maybe one or two humorous pieces. Humor is so difficult to do correctly and I so very much loathe most of it. I guess that is kind of true about our stories being about fucked up shit (our next issue is the Rape Issue), but I have tried to tone that down a bit (or sneak it in?) by goofing off with the covers. This is a weird conversation. I don’t know how seriously (or unseriously) I take it anymore. It feels about the same. One thing that has changed is that I now do it alone as the only editor. There isn’t anyone to have fun with it anymore so I have to have fun with it all alone (Pity me!). Our last issue suffered, I think, because that was in the middle of losing my other editor. There was too much shit going on (stories being accepted and rejected) when we weren’t together and in agreement, and the issue as a whole did not seem as consistent to me when I got my hands on it. The work in it is fine, beyond fine, but the previous issues had more of a coherence. I am trying to make up for it with the Rape Issue. I am sure I will hear some criticism about the theme, but it wasn’t a plan or anything. I just noticed halfway into it that there was tons of rape in the stories. A large number of people submitted stories involving rape somehow, however slightly. I don’t know. It could be that I titled it badly. But, regardless of any of that, the page breaks this issue are THE BEST.
I gotta go pick up some friends at the airport.
Well, I guess one knows that it isn’t going to be all fun and games. The amount (and character) of people one is immediately forced to deal with can be brutal. This sucks, but kind of like a party sucks. Because most people at any party are assholes, but you gotta sift and elbow through the assholes to find your friends. I think one should hope that they will be taken seriously, but not too seriously? Like, I always hear shit that our stories are mostly about too serious and sad, fucked up shit. But I guess that is what I like, or maybe that is what triggers great writing. Of course, not all sad fucked up shit is good. That would be silly. We have published maybe one or two humorous pieces. Humor is so difficult to do correctly and I so very much loathe most of it. I guess that is kind of true about our stories being about fucked up shit (our next issue is the Rape Issue), but I have tried to tone that down a bit (or sneak it in?) by goofing off with the covers. This is a weird conversation. I don’t know how seriously (or unseriously) I take it anymore. It feels about the same. One thing that has changed is that I now do it alone as the only editor. There isn’t anyone to have fun with it anymore so I have to have fun with it all alone (Pity me!). Our last issue suffered, I think, because that was in the middle of losing my other editor. There was too much shit going on (stories being accepted and rejected) when we weren’t together and in agreement, and the issue as a whole did not seem as consistent to me when I got my hands on it. The work in it is fine, beyond fine, but the previous issues had more of a coherence. I am trying to make up for it with the Rape Issue. I am sure I will hear some criticism about the theme, but it wasn’t a plan or anything. I just noticed halfway into it that there was tons of rape in the stories. A large number of people submitted stories involving rape somehow, however slightly. I don’t know. It could be that I titled it badly. But, regardless of any of that, the page breaks this issue are THE BEST.
I gotta go pick up some friends at the airport.
i’ll take innovation of content over innovation of presentation form any day of the week.
seems like so many magazines think the opposite: that we need new ‘innovative’ ways of presenting text that could be in any other magazine. as if stealing modes from TV and film and web design is really ‘innovative’ at all? it’s not. i think of it more as a compromise, or a catching up, in that way.
you want to be innovative? publish things you do not understand.
by that i do not mean necessarily things that are impenetrable, or even abstract.
i mean something else.
i’ll take innovation of content over innovation of presentation form any day of the week.
seems like so many magazines think the opposite: that we need new ‘innovative’ ways of presenting text that could be in any other magazine. as if stealing modes from TV and film and web design is really ‘innovative’ at all? it’s not. i think of it more as a compromise, or a catching up, in that way.
you want to be innovative? publish things you do not understand.
by that i do not mean necessarily things that are impenetrable, or even abstract.
i mean something else.
I know PANK has always aimed to publish innovative writing but I’ve quickly learned that everyone wants to do that and starts out with grand ambitions. Funny story. At AWP last year a woman walked up to our table and asked, “what kind of work are you looking for?” I was tired of talking and tired of people and tired of looking at skinny jeans and blah blah blah so I recited our spiel and said, “We’re just looking for good writing,” and the woman sort of smirked and replied, “That’s what everyone says.”
I will acknowledge that finding innovative writing is easier said than done’ Our real struggle has been with consistently finding good innovative and experimental writing. So many of our submissions equate experimental with absurd and ridiculous, like putting one word in the middle of a blank page and thinking that will fly. For example, we once got a submission with the word “peace” in the document. That’s it. Really? REALLY? Fortunately, we get a lot of submissions and more importantly, a lot of really excellent writing but real boundary pushing work is hard to come by even when you explicitly ask for it.
I know PANK has always aimed to publish innovative writing but I’ve quickly learned that everyone wants to do that and starts out with grand ambitions. Funny story. At AWP last year a woman walked up to our table and asked, “what kind of work are you looking for?” I was tired of talking and tired of people and tired of looking at skinny jeans and blah blah blah so I recited our spiel and said, “We’re just looking for good writing,” and the woman sort of smirked and replied, “That’s what everyone says.”
I will acknowledge that finding innovative writing is easier said than done’ Our real struggle has been with consistently finding good innovative and experimental writing. So many of our submissions equate experimental with absurd and ridiculous, like putting one word in the middle of a blank page and thinking that will fly. For example, we once got a submission with the word “peace” in the document. That’s it. Really? REALLY? Fortunately, we get a lot of submissions and more importantly, a lot of really excellent writing but real boundary pushing work is hard to come by even when you explicitly ask for it.
I don’t see a problem with that either. And that’s how I see EL, as a great great magazine. I just don’t see all the fireworks they are always talking about.
I don’t see a problem with that either. And that’s how I see EL, as a great great magazine. I just don’t see all the fireworks they are always talking about.
There’s no such thing as too many questions.
There’s no such thing as too many questions.
I know that Matt and I both still have fun with PANK every single day. There are little frustrations (ignored guidelines, multiple submissions a day from the same writer; rudeness) and stresses (how the heck are we going to pay for this issue) but they are so tiny in comparison to the excitement of discovering new (to us) writers and developing relationships with them and reading chapbook mss and blogging and finding artwork for book covers and on and on and on. I hope I can do this forever.
I know that Matt and I both still have fun with PANK every single day. There are little frustrations (ignored guidelines, multiple submissions a day from the same writer; rudeness) and stresses (how the heck are we going to pay for this issue) but they are so tiny in comparison to the excitement of discovering new (to us) writers and developing relationships with them and reading chapbook mss and blogging and finding artwork for book covers and on and on and on. I hope I can do this forever.
Thanks for this link!
Thanks for this link!
I started abjective serious. I do everything serious though. I do things with vigor or I don’t do them. I would feel weird having a journal and drinking bourbon and having a party while reading submissions. I would be in the corner wanting everyone to shut up so I could read submissions and skulking that I’m the only one taking this thing seriously.
I wanted to start something for years, probably before I even knew what kind of literature I was really interested in. I’m not sure I can even say now what kind of literature I am interested in. Guest editing at smokelong and pindeldyboz helped me understand the logistics behind submission management, and maybe that planted something in me, that feeling of reading something someone decided to send to you. It’s still kind of amazing, when I read something that’s amazing, and I think, this person sent this to me knowing I’m not even going to pay him for it. In the end I was more power hungry though, and wanted to make decisions myself as to what to publish. I knew a bit of html, I’d owned domain names before and played around. I liked eyeshot’s rolling publication schedule and figured that would be the least amount of effort. A lot of abjective is built for the sake of simplifying the process as much as possible so one person can handle it and not burn out. So one factor in deciding to do it what was that it would be simple to do.
As far as being innovative or something, there’s probably two separate discussions. One, on the EL side, is innovation w/r/t marketing. The other is w/r/t the literature itself. I’m not interested in the literature at EL. I don’t like the idea that something ought to grab you, plot-wise, from the first sentence, and they seem to be purely about that, or I read that on their site a while ago, or something. I don’t think I could ever submit something there. So I haven’t paid attention to what they are doing beyond what their literature is doing. In general I don’t really pay attention to what anyone is doing beyond what their literature does.
The work I choose at abjective, I don’t think of it as ‘innovative’ or ‘experimental’ although I use those words to categorize it. I have a fetish I think with literature that exudes a kind of mystery about itself, that doesn’t explain itself or feel a need to. But I never set out to publish this kind of work. It just kind of happened. My taste revealed itself as time went on. In the beginning I was as in the dark about what I would eventually publish as much as I think early readers were. This also meant I would never solicit, because I didn’t know what I was going to publish. Zuniga sent that piece out of the blue and it was the first submission I got that I read three or four times, letting the atmosphere of what was happening soak in, and just kind of made the decision. I’ve yet to solicit anything from anyone. Everything depends on what is sent, and I don’t control that, in fact I’ve opened the door so wide I think that I let pretty much anything in to be considered. I still don’t think I publish any one particular kind of work. I feel like I would publish a romance novel at abjective if something about it was interesting to me. Also, I don’t like the idea of consistency from piece to piece. I want straight 10,000 word narrative stories back to back with textually strange, unpronouncable poems. I don’t want anyone to go to the site with an expectation.
I started abjective serious. I do everything serious though. I do things with vigor or I don’t do them. I would feel weird having a journal and drinking bourbon and having a party while reading submissions. I would be in the corner wanting everyone to shut up so I could read submissions and skulking that I’m the only one taking this thing seriously.
I wanted to start something for years, probably before I even knew what kind of literature I was really interested in. I’m not sure I can even say now what kind of literature I am interested in. Guest editing at smokelong and pindeldyboz helped me understand the logistics behind submission management, and maybe that planted something in me, that feeling of reading something someone decided to send to you. It’s still kind of amazing, when I read something that’s amazing, and I think, this person sent this to me knowing I’m not even going to pay him for it. In the end I was more power hungry though, and wanted to make decisions myself as to what to publish. I knew a bit of html, I’d owned domain names before and played around. I liked eyeshot’s rolling publication schedule and figured that would be the least amount of effort. A lot of abjective is built for the sake of simplifying the process as much as possible so one person can handle it and not burn out. So one factor in deciding to do it what was that it would be simple to do.
As far as being innovative or something, there’s probably two separate discussions. One, on the EL side, is innovation w/r/t marketing. The other is w/r/t the literature itself. I’m not interested in the literature at EL. I don’t like the idea that something ought to grab you, plot-wise, from the first sentence, and they seem to be purely about that, or I read that on their site a while ago, or something. I don’t think I could ever submit something there. So I haven’t paid attention to what they are doing beyond what their literature is doing. In general I don’t really pay attention to what anyone is doing beyond what their literature does.
The work I choose at abjective, I don’t think of it as ‘innovative’ or ‘experimental’ although I use those words to categorize it. I have a fetish I think with literature that exudes a kind of mystery about itself, that doesn’t explain itself or feel a need to. But I never set out to publish this kind of work. It just kind of happened. My taste revealed itself as time went on. In the beginning I was as in the dark about what I would eventually publish as much as I think early readers were. This also meant I would never solicit, because I didn’t know what I was going to publish. Zuniga sent that piece out of the blue and it was the first submission I got that I read three or four times, letting the atmosphere of what was happening soak in, and just kind of made the decision. I’ve yet to solicit anything from anyone. Everything depends on what is sent, and I don’t control that, in fact I’ve opened the door so wide I think that I let pretty much anything in to be considered. I still don’t think I publish any one particular kind of work. I feel like I would publish a romance novel at abjective if something about it was interesting to me. Also, I don’t like the idea of consistency from piece to piece. I want straight 10,000 word narrative stories back to back with textually strange, unpronouncable poems. I don’t want anyone to go to the site with an expectation.
Darby, look for “Carlotta and Romero: Lovingly Doomed Because One is Half Cat” coming your way soon – perfect timing! I think it will fit Abjective’s aesthetic, like my other subs.
Actually, kidding aside, I really enjoyed your post. I remember reading your phone booth/Pres Bush piece on Zoetrope about six years ago. I think my review said, “Uh, I like it, very funny but I’m not sure the editors will.” You wrote me back a very kind note, saying thanks and you weren’t really tailoring it to the journals I was thinking of.
That gets funnier over time.
Darby, look for “Carlotta and Romero: Lovingly Doomed Because One is Half Cat” coming your way soon – perfect timing! I think it will fit Abjective’s aesthetic, like my other subs.
Actually, kidding aside, I really enjoyed your post. I remember reading your phone booth/Pres Bush piece on Zoetrope about six years ago. I think my review said, “Uh, I like it, very funny but I’m not sure the editors will.” You wrote me back a very kind note, saying thanks and you weren’t really tailoring it to the journals I was thinking of.
That gets funnier over time.
hi david. I have no memory of a phone booth/Pres Bush piece. What was that about?
hi david. I have no memory of a phone booth/Pres Bush piece. What was that about?
i liked reading this thread.
i liked reading this thread.
Yes! Gian, I love you.
Yes! Gian, I love you.
tee hee
tee hee
Same with NC.
Same with NC.
innovative presentation is mostly whizbang marketing
innovative presentation is mostly whizbang marketing
Who cares that they pay.
The second ad is weak. I shot pool with Cunningham, nice guy.
Who cares that they pay.
The second ad is weak. I shot pool with Cunningham, nice guy.