March 9th, 2010 / 1:44 am
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Meta
this is alright. funny, in parts.
Seth Abramson is the first comment on it, and he gives the number of grad writing programs, and then says something about the piece being scary because of the implications of how many people are out there writing poetry (I think that’s his basic point).
I don’t get that? If they’re writing good stuff we should celebrate, and if they’re writing shitty stuff they will bury themselves or history will bury them. Right?
this is alright. funny, in parts.
Seth Abramson is the first comment on it, and he gives the number of grad writing programs, and then says something about the piece being scary because of the implications of how many people are out there writing poetry (I think that’s his basic point).
I don’t get that? If they’re writing good stuff we should celebrate, and if they’re writing shitty stuff they will bury themselves or history will bury them. Right?
It’s truly bizarre to me, the recent lament that there are just so many writing programs and so many writers and let’s all panic. Are people threatened? How is more people creating literature a bad thing? I am truly baffled. Cream does rise to the top and bad writing will be bad writing whether there are 800 graduate programs or 8. I thought this article was fun and all but also depressingly cynical.
It’s truly bizarre to me, the recent lament that there are just so many writing programs and so many writers and let’s all panic. Are people threatened? How is more people creating literature a bad thing? I am truly baffled. Cream does rise to the top and bad writing will be bad writing whether there are 800 graduate programs or 8. I thought this article was fun and all but also depressingly cynical.
“25 students apiece each year are actually factories sending more enemies to the front lines. ”
Do poets not care about mixed metaphors?
“25 students apiece each year are actually factories sending more enemies to the front lines. ”
Do poets not care about mixed metaphors?
This made me chuckle though: “Jay Leno would reach through your skin and deep into your stomach to fetch an undigested Skittle if he were hungry for one.”
This made me chuckle though: “Jay Leno would reach through your skin and deep into your stomach to fetch an undigested Skittle if he were hungry for one.”
i don’t know. i hold html g’s opinion in a pretty high place so i’ve been waiting for someone here to mention this article. i was hoping i wasn’t crazy for having problems with the article. it’s definitely funny and i sympathize with his jewel disdain. the university of wisconsin thought we’d benefit from listening to sting talk to us about writing. but i think the article works pretty hard at making a wide array of readers feel really shitty about themselves. i don’t particularly find that productive or see how the article provides any real viable commentary most people interested in poetry aren’t aware of. the bitterness/cynicism swimming around in behrle’s fingers breeds a lot of exaggeration for me as well. do most poetry/short fiction writers really spend a lot of time highly concerned about maya angelou level fame? some maybe. but i’m not even sure a lot of writers are overly concerned about scoring smaller time fame (like a html g shout out). most of the writers i know are really glad people like the writers here are out there sharing their poetry and opining smart things on the subject, regardless of their own status. poetry is much more successful at having a healthy sense of a collective than most of the “arts.” ok i feel like i’ve prattled on too much and maybe i just don’t get it. basically, i just don’t see any joy or humility in this article and find that to be a problem.
i don’t know. i hold html g’s opinion in a pretty high place so i’ve been waiting for someone here to mention this article. i was hoping i wasn’t crazy for having problems with the article. it’s definitely funny and i sympathize with his jewel disdain. the university of wisconsin thought we’d benefit from listening to sting talk to us about writing. but i think the article works pretty hard at making a wide array of readers feel really shitty about themselves. i don’t particularly find that productive or see how the article provides any real viable commentary most people interested in poetry aren’t aware of. the bitterness/cynicism swimming around in behrle’s fingers breeds a lot of exaggeration for me as well. do most poetry/short fiction writers really spend a lot of time highly concerned about maya angelou level fame? some maybe. but i’m not even sure a lot of writers are overly concerned about scoring smaller time fame (like a html g shout out). most of the writers i know are really glad people like the writers here are out there sharing their poetry and opining smart things on the subject, regardless of their own status. poetry is much more successful at having a healthy sense of a collective than most of the “arts.” ok i feel like i’ve prattled on too much and maybe i just don’t get it. basically, i just don’t see any joy or humility in this article and find that to be a problem.
Once you get past the humor, which there is in this article, I agree there are a lot of problems. The cynicism is really depressing and I also think that you put it so well–the article does a really good job at making people feel badly. Part of me feels like this person has achieved a modicum of success and is standing at the mountaintop, pointing and laughing at the people trying to reach similar heights. I didn’t have time to really dissect this article but I posted the link because I’m interested in hearing what others think about what he has to say.
Once you get past the humor, which there is in this article, I agree there are a lot of problems. The cynicism is really depressing and I also think that you put it so well–the article does a really good job at making people feel badly. Part of me feels like this person has achieved a modicum of success and is standing at the mountaintop, pointing and laughing at the people trying to reach similar heights. I didn’t have time to really dissect this article but I posted the link because I’m interested in hearing what others think about what he has to say.
oh no. don’t get me wrong! i wasn’t calling for more immediate dissection beyond the link in the initial post. i was just saying i was happy it was posted here and that elieved that most of the comments so far don’t just lol at all the snark like they are on tumblr and the awl for the most part. cheers. seriously.
oh no. don’t get me wrong! i wasn’t calling for more immediate dissection beyond the link in the initial post. i was just saying i was happy it was posted here and that elieved that most of the comments so far don’t just lol at all the snark like they are on tumblr and the awl for the most part. cheers. seriously.
*that i was relieved
*that i was relieved
Great article for the insomniac poet at 4 am. I walk away from this knowing how right I am to hold most other writers/poets in contempt. A good friend of mine decided to be a writer and I warned him that I tend to be aggressive toward other writers, he presented me a small pile of horse crap and I told him so. We don’t talk much now. My wife is also starting to write, this is not problematic though as she prefers me aggressive. And only a small correction to the article. I believe that there are many many many people writing poetry now but there are still as few poets as there ever were. It is only a lot easier to broadcast yourself across the planet with this WWW thing so everybody is everything until their head is on fire and then they are only a running screaming candle looking for water.
Great article for the insomniac poet at 4 am. I walk away from this knowing how right I am to hold most other writers/poets in contempt. A good friend of mine decided to be a writer and I warned him that I tend to be aggressive toward other writers, he presented me a small pile of horse crap and I told him so. We don’t talk much now. My wife is also starting to write, this is not problematic though as she prefers me aggressive. And only a small correction to the article. I believe that there are many many many people writing poetry now but there are still as few poets as there ever were. It is only a lot easier to broadcast yourself across the planet with this WWW thing so everybody is everything until their head is on fire and then they are only a running screaming candle looking for water.
yeah it was fun at first, then it became so bitter and deconstructive. I’m gonna go to sleep feeling upset now
Conan said, “don’t be cynical, it’s my least favorite quality”
yeah it was fun at first, then it became so bitter and deconstructive. I’m gonna go to sleep feeling upset now
Conan said, “don’t be cynical, it’s my least favorite quality”
Ghosh, Jhon, that’s an interest metaphor you threw in at the end there.
Less amusing than the original article, more repulsive in its thrust. Many stars for you.
I’m hoping this is satire. If not… well, where would you even start to take issue with it? It’s so pregnant with potential.
Ghosh, Jhon, that’s an interest metaphor you threw in at the end there.
Less amusing than the original article, more repulsive in its thrust. Many stars for you.
I’m hoping this is satire. If not… well, where would you even start to take issue with it? It’s so pregnant with potential.
That should be “interesting”. Blast.
The dangers of being all snarky and whatnot on the internet.
That should be “interesting”. Blast.
The dangers of being all snarky and whatnot on the internet.
Lots of writers and writing isn’t itself a bad thing, but if the numbers there had been correct the sort of competition we’d be looking at among poets could really become (more) unhealthy and almost exactly like what’s described in the essay. 800×25=20000 poetry grads a year. 200000 per decade! At that point everyone’d be at each other’s throats, maybe…
Lots of writers and writing isn’t itself a bad thing, but if the numbers there had been correct the sort of competition we’d be looking at among poets could really become (more) unhealthy and almost exactly like what’s described in the essay. 800×25=20000 poetry grads a year. 200000 per decade! At that point everyone’d be at each other’s throats, maybe…
“Jay Leno would reach through your skin and deep into your stomach to fetch an undigested Skittle if he were hungry for one.”
Anyone think that was awesome?
Anyone left who writes because they like to move words about? Find that writing stimulates? This whole satire falls flat if you actually think poetry is itself, not some life outside itself.
But it was funny. That Leno line is funny.
“Jay Leno would reach through your skin and deep into your stomach to fetch an undigested Skittle if he were hungry for one.”
Anyone think that was awesome?
Anyone left who writes because they like to move words about? Find that writing stimulates? This whole satire falls flat if you actually think poetry is itself, not some life outside itself.
But it was funny. That Leno line is funny.
“Cream does rise to the top”
How often is this true, really? Judging from my occasional perusals of the shelves at Barnes & Noble, I’d say the thing that most frequently floats to the top is garbage. At least in poetry. Some of it is just so offensive (*cough* Tony Hoagland *cough*) to any reasonable notion of good taste, it’s hard not to get angry. Even though, yeah, it’s ultimately a silly thing to get angry over. But not really. But kind of. But still.
“Cream does rise to the top”
How often is this true, really? Judging from my occasional perusals of the shelves at Barnes & Noble, I’d say the thing that most frequently floats to the top is garbage. At least in poetry. Some of it is just so offensive (*cough* Tony Hoagland *cough*) to any reasonable notion of good taste, it’s hard not to get angry. Even though, yeah, it’s ultimately a silly thing to get angry over. But not really. But kind of. But still.
This is a Jim Behrle essay.
This is a Jim Behrle essay.
This is a Jim Behrle essay.
i read all of this. i really did. it made me sigh a lot. i don’t know. i didn’t find it funny.
i read all of this. i really did. it made me sigh a lot. i don’t know. i didn’t find it funny.
i read all of this. i really did. it made me sigh a lot. i don’t know. i didn’t find it funny.
I am rarely an optimist but in this regard I tend to believe cream does rise to the top. Of course, I am not super well-versed in poetry so there’s that.
I am rarely an optimist but in this regard I tend to believe cream does rise to the top. Of course, I am not super well-versed in poetry so there’s that.
I am rarely an optimist but in this regard I tend to believe cream does rise to the top. Of course, I am not super well-versed in poetry so there’s that.
Leno line is gold. But too many words, overall. Not enough funny in that snark to justify three whole internet pages.
Leno line is gold. But too many words, overall. Not enough funny in that snark to justify three whole internet pages.
Leno line is gold. But too many words, overall. Not enough funny in that snark to justify three whole internet pages.
I didn’t either.
I get that this is satire, but the kind of people he’s flaming don’t deserve the kind of focus he’s giving them.
There are a lot of things going on to be happy about. People are making stuff that’s really nice. And who is upset that they’re not seen as more of a badass poet? Idiots? There are always a lot of people in a given profession for the wrong reason, doing the wrong thing. And even if there are more of those people making poetry now, who cares?
I didn’t either.
I get that this is satire, but the kind of people he’s flaming don’t deserve the kind of focus he’s giving them.
There are a lot of things going on to be happy about. People are making stuff that’s really nice. And who is upset that they’re not seen as more of a badass poet? Idiots? There are always a lot of people in a given profession for the wrong reason, doing the wrong thing. And even if there are more of those people making poetry now, who cares?
I didn’t either.
I get that this is satire, but the kind of people he’s flaming don’t deserve the kind of focus he’s giving them.
There are a lot of things going on to be happy about. People are making stuff that’s really nice. And who is upset that they’re not seen as more of a badass poet? Idiots? There are always a lot of people in a given profession for the wrong reason, doing the wrong thing. And even if there are more of those people making poetry now, who cares?
how many times can the article that more or less just says “there’s lots of poets writing lots of poems in the united states of america you should all be sad” be written and rearranged?
this guy seems alright, maybe I’d like to see him in a bar then cheers him but really I’m sick of reading this article every 1.5 weeks
how many times can the article that more or less just says “there’s lots of poets writing lots of poems in the united states of america you should all be sad” be written and rearranged?
this guy seems alright, maybe I’d like to see him in a bar then cheers him but really I’m sick of reading this article every 1.5 weeks
how many times can the article that more or less just says “there’s lots of poets writing lots of poems in the united states of america you should all be sad” be written and rearranged?
this guy seems alright, maybe I’d like to see him in a bar then cheers him but really I’m sick of reading this article every 1.5 weeks
if you know jim you know that he’s not flaming just a few people. that was intended as an indictment of everyone… an indictment of a culture all poets participate in in some way or another. there is no oh he means the other guy here.
if you know jim you know that he’s not flaming just a few people. that was intended as an indictment of everyone… an indictment of a culture all poets participate in in some way or another. there is no oh he means the other guy here.
if you know jim you know that he’s not flaming just a few people. that was intended as an indictment of everyone… an indictment of a culture all poets participate in in some way or another. there is no oh he means the other guy here.
Be honest–how many of you thought to yourselves, “Seth Abramson will be the first commenter in the comments section”?
How does this guy have time for eating, shitting, and working on a doctorate? Does he spend his entire day posting in the comments sections of blogs and on message boards?
And how does someone who didn’t even apply to MFA programs until 2007 become a self-appointed expert on creative writing programs?
Be honest–how many of you thought to yourselves, “Seth Abramson will be the first commenter in the comments section”?
How does this guy have time for eating, shitting, and working on a doctorate? Does he spend his entire day posting in the comments sections of blogs and on message boards?
And how does someone who didn’t even apply to MFA programs until 2007 become a self-appointed expert on creative writing programs?
Be honest–how many of you thought to yourselves, “Seth Abramson will be the first commenter in the comments section”?
How does this guy have time for eating, shitting, and working on a doctorate? Does he spend his entire day posting in the comments sections of blogs and on message boards?
And how does someone who didn’t even apply to MFA programs until 2007 become a self-appointed expert on creative writing programs?
These oops combinations of snarkiness and typos always make me laugh. Ah, human fallibility. Smile.
These oops combinations of snarkiness and typos always make me laugh. Ah, human fallibility. Smile.
These oops combinations of snarkiness and typos always make me laugh. Ah, human fallibility. Smile.
“Anyone left who writes because they like to move words about?”
Yes. This is the only reason for me, I think.
“Find that writing stimulates?”
Yes. And it also relaxes.
“Anyone left who writes because they like to move words about?”
Yes. This is the only reason for me, I think.
“Find that writing stimulates?”
Yes. And it also relaxes.
“Anyone left who writes because they like to move words about?”
Yes. This is the only reason for me, I think.
“Find that writing stimulates?”
Yes. And it also relaxes.
FWIW… The book I used in applying to MFA programs, and the only one I could find on Amazon that talked about specific programs, says this… “I used to be known as the MFA Guru, but it’s the truth to say that Seth [Abramson] has taken that title from me. You’re in good hands with him …. to say that I’ve been blown away by the work that Seth has put into [his MFA website] would be an understatement. When I sat down to write [the chapter on individual programs] for the updated MFA Handbook, my first thought was, ‘This is silly. Seth knows this better than I do. And he does.'” — TOM KEALEY, author, The Creative Writing MFA Handbook
FWIW… The book I used in applying to MFA programs, and the only one I could find on Amazon that talked about specific programs, says this… “I used to be known as the MFA Guru, but it’s the truth to say that Seth [Abramson] has taken that title from me. You’re in good hands with him …. to say that I’ve been blown away by the work that Seth has put into [his MFA website] would be an understatement. When I sat down to write [the chapter on individual programs] for the updated MFA Handbook, my first thought was, ‘This is silly. Seth knows this better than I do. And he does.'” — TOM KEALEY, author, The Creative Writing MFA Handbook
FWIW… The book I used in applying to MFA programs, and the only one I could find on Amazon that talked about specific programs, says this… “I used to be known as the MFA Guru, but it’s the truth to say that Seth [Abramson] has taken that title from me. You’re in good hands with him …. to say that I’ve been blown away by the work that Seth has put into [his MFA website] would be an understatement. When I sat down to write [the chapter on individual programs] for the updated MFA Handbook, my first thought was, ‘This is silly. Seth knows this better than I do. And he does.'” — TOM KEALEY, author, The Creative Writing MFA Handbook
Is Tom Kealey yet another one of those Stegner lifers who still “lectures” at Stanford and has like three published stories on his CV?
I’ve read the MFA Handbook. It’s mostly useless.
Is Tom Kealey yet another one of those Stegner lifers who still “lectures” at Stanford and has like three published stories on his CV?
I’ve read the MFA Handbook. It’s mostly useless.
Is Tom Kealey yet another one of those Stegner lifers who still “lectures” at Stanford and has like three published stories on his CV?
I’ve read the MFA Handbook. It’s mostly useless.
I don’t have a strong opinion either way
I don’t have a strong opinion either way
I don’t have a strong opinion either way
mimes.
mimes.
mimes.