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2007 Form 990 – Narrative Magazine
So, forgive me for posting, but there’s more talk about Narrative Magazine, which just announced the results of its Winter Fiction Contest: $3,000 goes to the winner, Janet Burroway.
The discussion begins at Literary Rejections on Display, where Writer, Rejected points at an old post at Arts and Palaver that suggests Eds. Jenks and Edgarian ‘fix’ the contests. Elizabeth Brody comments on the LROD post that she is working with Web del Sol to investigate Narrative Magazine. Then Jason Sanford, after posting the Notable Stories of 2008 and awarding Narrative Magazine best online journal of 2008, responds to various concerns at his blog. Words continue over at the Our Stories blog, where Alexis Santi offers suggestions to Tom Jenks and Carol Edgarian as to how they could improve Narrative Magazine‘s transparency. It was suggested that someone ought to post Narrative Magazine Inc.’s 990s, to which a commentor, Andrew W., responded by linking to the Foundation Center and reporting a few things:
Unfortunately it’s not all that helpful in putting together of story of exactly how they spend their money: for example, in 2007, Narrative had assets in excess of $230,000 (w00t!) and spent $50,000 on editorial services, $15,000 on copyediting, $29,000 on a webmaster, and $39,000 on author fees. There’s no way to know what the actual breakdown on all that was without asking them, but it’d be good to know how in the world they can spend $29,000 in one year on a webmaster.
I figured I might as well (re)post that information here.
After the break, a few selections from the 990. If you care to look at the entire 990 that Narrative Magazine Inc. filed for the year 2007, you may do so by clicking on this link (PDF). If you care to search the Foundation Center’s 990 Finder, then enter Narrative Magazine Inc.’s EIN: 03-0542711.
Here’s page one, Part I:
Line 1b says that in 2007 Narrative Magazine Inc. received $146,177 in “Direct public support.”
Line 17 says that in 2007 Narrative Magazine Inc. spent $204,808. That created a deficit for the year of $32,742.
Line 21 says that Narrative Magazine Inc. holds “net assets or funds” at a value of $239,135.
Here’s page two, Part II:
Line 43b says that in 2007 Narrative Magazine Inc. spent $39,365 on “Author Fees.”
Line 43c says that in 2007 Narrative Magazine Inc. spent $29,119 on “Web Master.”
*I should note that on page five, Part V-A shows that current officers Tom Jenks, President/CEO, and Carol Edgarian, Vice President, receive no compensation for their work on Narrative Magazine, which equals 40hrs/wk and 20hrs/wk respectively.
Here’s page four of Schedule A, Part IV-A:
This is cool to look at because of the huge growth between 2005 and 2006. Also interesting is line 26f, which shows the “Public support percentage” to be 46.09%.
Anyhow, as has been said before, this information doesn’t really give you anything but an overall sense of the magazine’s operations. But it was still fun to look at, for me anyhow. I don’t really know much about this sort of thing, and I’ve already displayed some ignorance of how nonprofits work in a previous thread, but I’m learning.
Tags: form 990, narrative magazine
Awww yeah, foetry redux! Exciting!
Also: Janet Burroway wrote the excellent creative writing how-to that was an undergrad textbook for me. I highly recommend for beginning writers!
No opinion on whether or not “the fix is in” (how would I know), but I can tell you this: I tried to submit something to narrative once, and I’m pretty sure they tried to charge me 20 bucks. Not for a contest! Just a standard slush-pile reading fee. Maybe that impression was wrong (and I’ve got no prob with mags that charge one or two or three bucks for a submission — gotta stack that paper somehow — though I’m glad, too, that most don’t) but I was like, what? really, dude? I’m outta here.
That couldn’t be right, right? [Oh wait, just googled “narrative magazine sucks” and there are others who think they charge 20 clams to read a story — I hope we’re all wrong, cos that shit’s not cool!]
Awww yeah, foetry redux! Exciting!
Also: Janet Burroway wrote the excellent creative writing how-to that was an undergrad textbook for me. I highly recommend for beginning writers!
No opinion on whether or not “the fix is in” (how would I know), but I can tell you this: I tried to submit something to narrative once, and I’m pretty sure they tried to charge me 20 bucks. Not for a contest! Just a standard slush-pile reading fee. Maybe that impression was wrong (and I’ve got no prob with mags that charge one or two or three bucks for a submission — gotta stack that paper somehow — though I’m glad, too, that most don’t) but I was like, what? really, dude? I’m outta here.
That couldn’t be right, right? [Oh wait, just googled “narrative magazine sucks” and there are others who think they charge 20 clams to read a story — I hope we’re all wrong, cos that shit’s not cool!]
yep, $20 a pop.
this post frightens me.
yep, $20 a pop.
this post frightens me.
While the evidence suggests the editors could improve their contest judging with some impartiality, that favoritism of big names might even guide their selections, I do recall Maud Newton winning a previous Narrative contest? She’s a great writer and passionate reviewer, and I have to assume, as savy as she likely is, that she submitted through the open sub channels. While one instance does not disprove anything, it is reasuring to see her name among all these well-established writers and novelists in the winners booth.
Narrative is a sketchyassmoneymakingprettyboylitbizmonster and needs to be held under a microscope to see what sort of things are really going on in there.
Until then, I say spend your $$$ on other lit mags, the ones you like to read and trust with your contest entries — and ones with smaller more precarious budgets. The list of those mags is huge. Narrative doesn’t needs our dough, they need a talking to.
While the evidence suggests the editors could improve their contest judging with some impartiality, that favoritism of big names might even guide their selections, I do recall Maud Newton winning a previous Narrative contest? She’s a great writer and passionate reviewer, and I have to assume, as savy as she likely is, that she submitted through the open sub channels. While one instance does not disprove anything, it is reasuring to see her name among all these well-established writers and novelists in the winners booth.
Narrative is a sketchyassmoneymakingprettyboylitbizmonster and needs to be held under a microscope to see what sort of things are really going on in there.
Until then, I say spend your $$$ on other lit mags, the ones you like to read and trust with your contest entries — and ones with smaller more precarious budgets. The list of those mags is huge. Narrative doesn’t needs our dough, they need a talking to.
this is an important post ryan.
thank you.
this is an important post ryan.
thank you.
$50k in editorial fees for a year of an online journal
$50k
note to narrative: i’ll work for 1/5th of that, even less, hire me
‘no pay for our hours’
$29k for a webmaster
uploading is a bitch
$50k in editorial fees for a year of an online journal
$50k
note to narrative: i’ll work for 1/5th of that, even less, hire me
‘no pay for our hours’
$29k for a webmaster
uploading is a bitch
I love Maud Newton, and her fiction is totally deserving of publication, but she’s not really someone you can use to bolster a no-quid-pro argument. Seeing as she’s one of the 3 or 4 biggest book bloggers.
The fact that she’s never linked to Narrative since her story was published only proves she’s… uhhh… sneaky like that? OK, so I’m undermining my own comment. Conclusions:
1) Maud Newton is squeky clean and a good writer
2) But not a good example of Narrative’s impartiality, on account of she’s big time, and
3) Narrative’s $$$ submission policy is, umm, an interesting business model.
4) Which is also — as someone who reads slush, every day — a little crazy predatory, ‘cos I suspect that the majority of their submissions suck to the point of within a few second of reading they can say OMG, LOL, hell no, this one ain’t for us, which, w/ their online submission system, means that, even if we generously assume that it takes two whole minutes to gauge the suckiness and total unsuitability of a story about, say, Arab terrorists working in cahoots with the Vatican to blow up Baltimore, we’re talking, pro-rata, $600 an hour to tell this poor jerk no.
5) On the other hand, they actually pay cash money for stories they publish. so in a way any publication is like winning a contest! If in your mind the main thing about contests is contests = $$$!
6) And, in Narrative’s defense, there are people in this world who submit shit to every fucking venue they see in the LMP or Writers Marketplace or some dude’s website, people who appear to have never read a book in their life (apart from the LMP and Writer’s Marketplace), and certainly haven’t spent any time with the venue they’re submitting to, to get their brain around what that venue might actually consider to be in the ballpark of things they’d consider, so I guess Narrative’s like, why not fleece them? Cos is a sucker is born every minute? And most of them want to publish a book?
7) But maybe I’m just going on like this cos I’m hung over from the Gigantic party and pissed that last a couple months back I went through the steps of submitting Narrative — registering with them and so forth — only to find out they charged 20 bucks a submission? Which as I recall they said at the beginning of the process was a nominal fee?
8) But also it’s a good thing that Jayne Anne Phillips, Ann Beattie, and etc., get paid to publish a story in an online mag, and we can read it for free.
9) And the thing I was planning to submit to Narrative — and didn’t, on account of the $$$ thing — was totally unsuitable for them.
I love Maud Newton, and her fiction is totally deserving of publication, but she’s not really someone you can use to bolster a no-quid-pro argument. Seeing as she’s one of the 3 or 4 biggest book bloggers.
The fact that she’s never linked to Narrative since her story was published only proves she’s… uhhh… sneaky like that? OK, so I’m undermining my own comment. Conclusions:
1) Maud Newton is squeky clean and a good writer
2) But not a good example of Narrative’s impartiality, on account of she’s big time, and
3) Narrative’s $$$ submission policy is, umm, an interesting business model.
4) Which is also — as someone who reads slush, every day — a little crazy predatory, ‘cos I suspect that the majority of their submissions suck to the point of within a few second of reading they can say OMG, LOL, hell no, this one ain’t for us, which, w/ their online submission system, means that, even if we generously assume that it takes two whole minutes to gauge the suckiness and total unsuitability of a story about, say, Arab terrorists working in cahoots with the Vatican to blow up Baltimore, we’re talking, pro-rata, $600 an hour to tell this poor jerk no.
5) On the other hand, they actually pay cash money for stories they publish. so in a way any publication is like winning a contest! If in your mind the main thing about contests is contests = $$$!
6) And, in Narrative’s defense, there are people in this world who submit shit to every fucking venue they see in the LMP or Writers Marketplace or some dude’s website, people who appear to have never read a book in their life (apart from the LMP and Writer’s Marketplace), and certainly haven’t spent any time with the venue they’re submitting to, to get their brain around what that venue might actually consider to be in the ballpark of things they’d consider, so I guess Narrative’s like, why not fleece them? Cos is a sucker is born every minute? And most of them want to publish a book?
7) But maybe I’m just going on like this cos I’m hung over from the Gigantic party and pissed that last a couple months back I went through the steps of submitting Narrative — registering with them and so forth — only to find out they charged 20 bucks a submission? Which as I recall they said at the beginning of the process was a nominal fee?
8) But also it’s a good thing that Jayne Anne Phillips, Ann Beattie, and etc., get paid to publish a story in an online mag, and we can read it for free.
9) And the thing I was planning to submit to Narrative — and didn’t, on account of the $$$ thing — was totally unsuitable for them.
i didn’t mean to put a smiley in. i guess that’s what happens when you follow an 8 with a close parenthesis, in this fallen world.
i didn’t mean to put a smiley in. i guess that’s what happens when you follow an 8 with a close parenthesis, in this fallen world.
I’ll webmaster for a 1/5 of the current webmaster fees.
Narrative can save $63,000 by hiring us, Blake.
I’ll webmaster for a 1/5 of the current webmaster fees.
Narrative can save $63,000 by hiring us, Blake.
its gonna happen
its gonna happen
with $63k they’d have, like, enough money to publish a jose saramago story
then, like, have enough leftover for a matthew zapruder poem and maybe even a toni morrison ‘short short’
with $63k they’d have, like, enough money to publish a jose saramago story
then, like, have enough leftover for a matthew zapruder poem and maybe even a toni morrison ‘short short’
There’s a lot of money in writing but not for writers. It’s the same all over the planet. Writers generate all the energy, manufacture the product if you like and publishers and editors (and now webmasters) get paid. Oh, and intellectuals who write about writing. The worst paid job in the industry is actually doing the writing.
There’s a lot of money in writing but not for writers. It’s the same all over the planet. Writers generate all the energy, manufacture the product if you like and publishers and editors (and now webmasters) get paid. Oh, and intellectuals who write about writing. The worst paid job in the industry is actually doing the writing.
i don’t know, guys, what I’m seeing is a guy with viable computer skills working what’s probably a full-time job for under 30k/year. And let’s say it’s only part-time work, so he’s being generously (even over-generously) compensated. What’s the fucking difference? Seriously.
Take a second and recognize that the people you’re shitting on are working people. They’re not hobby-ists. These are their JOBS, their livelihoods, and it’s not exactly seven-figure executive bonuses that we’re talking about here.
The only thing that surprises me about this 990 is that the two head ed’s are uncompensated. I would have assumed they drew modest salaries.
The question of whether their contests are “fixed” is a separate issue, one that you all can “investigate” if you find yourselves so moved.
But I want to state for the record that I find this whole “I know how to spend your money” thread pretty disgusting. It’s a lot of reverse elitism and misdirected aggression. They’re not a fucking government organization. They’re just some magazine that none of us even reads.
i don’t know, guys, what I’m seeing is a guy with viable computer skills working what’s probably a full-time job for under 30k/year. And let’s say it’s only part-time work, so he’s being generously (even over-generously) compensated. What’s the fucking difference? Seriously.
Take a second and recognize that the people you’re shitting on are working people. They’re not hobby-ists. These are their JOBS, their livelihoods, and it’s not exactly seven-figure executive bonuses that we’re talking about here.
The only thing that surprises me about this 990 is that the two head ed’s are uncompensated. I would have assumed they drew modest salaries.
The question of whether their contests are “fixed” is a separate issue, one that you all can “investigate” if you find yourselves so moved.
But I want to state for the record that I find this whole “I know how to spend your money” thread pretty disgusting. It’s a lot of reverse elitism and misdirected aggression. They’re not a fucking government organization. They’re just some magazine that none of us even reads.
What it is is (a) a waste of fucking money and (b) maybe exploitation of people who *could be* called desperate for bucking to their $20 submission fee (c) sad
What it is is (a) a waste of fucking money and (b) maybe exploitation of people who *could be* called desperate for bucking to their $20 submission fee (c) sad
“They’re not a fucking government organization.”
they are spending government funds, no, taxpayer funds, COMPLETELY WASTEFULLY, AND CHARGING PEOPLE FOR IT, people who have little to no chance over their solicited authors, even in contests where the judging is ‘open’
all this in a time when everyone is getting called out, and for an entity that could be nearly free
you can’t run a 4x a year ELECTRONIC journal on $40k in grants for 2 years? fuck you.
“They’re not a fucking government organization.”
they are spending government funds, no, taxpayer funds, COMPLETELY WASTEFULLY, AND CHARGING PEOPLE FOR IT, people who have little to no chance over their solicited authors, even in contests where the judging is ‘open’
all this in a time when everyone is getting called out, and for an entity that could be nearly free
you can’t run a 4x a year ELECTRONIC journal on $40k in grants for 2 years? fuck you.
Narrative Magazine is the Billy Graham of online literature
Narrative Magazine is the Billy Graham of online literature
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, but just FYI for literally 2 2-week periods of the year you can sneak in Narrative submissions without a fee.
Also, thanks for coming out last night dude
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, but just FYI for literally 2 2-week periods of the year you can sneak in Narrative submissions without a fee.
Also, thanks for coming out last night dude
i like that kid’s haircut.
it’s nice to see html giant supporting mcdonalds.
i like that kid’s haircut.
it’s nice to see html giant supporting mcdonalds.
Does anyone have experience reading for journals that offer these “grace periods?” I’ve heard mention that they’ll frown on people who wait and submit without having to pay a fee. Is there any weight to that? Or is it just fear tactics?
Does anyone have experience reading for journals that offer these “grace periods?” I’ve heard mention that they’ll frown on people who wait and submit without having to pay a fee. Is there any weight to that? Or is it just fear tactics?
You want to put an end to the mis-use of taxpayer dollars by calling for a review of how the Narrative magazine budget is spent? Even if you’re 100% correct in everything you allege, you’re still wrong to be this worked up about it. The phrase “salt crystal on a beach” doesn’t even begin to describe the scale we’re talking about here.
But my real point was the one you didn’t address, but the tone and the level of animosity on display here. Instead, you’re cursing at me. A case in point, I daresay.
You want to put an end to the mis-use of taxpayer dollars by calling for a review of how the Narrative magazine budget is spent? Even if you’re 100% correct in everything you allege, you’re still wrong to be this worked up about it. The phrase “salt crystal on a beach” doesn’t even begin to describe the scale we’re talking about here.
But my real point was the one you didn’t address, but the tone and the level of animosity on display here. Instead, you’re cursing at me. A case in point, I daresay.
not cursing at you. at the entity. because it revulses me. as it should.
just because its everywhere doesn’t mean its not sickening at your front door, under the name of ‘art’
it’s not that it works me up, it’s that i think its something that should be called out for what it is: a ridiculous sham
not cursing at you. at the entity. because it revulses me. as it should.
just because its everywhere doesn’t mean its not sickening at your front door, under the name of ‘art’
it’s not that it works me up, it’s that i think its something that should be called out for what it is: a ridiculous sham
Sure, Justin, of course, and the fact that:
1) ann beattie gets paid (minimally)
2) some editor gets paid (minimally) (I guess? not quite clear on that, cos i’m not good at tax forms)
3) some computer dude gets paid (minimally)
is good. i mean, we should all strive for a world in which writing produces more money for more people who write, as well as for the people who thrust that writing out into the world. And i’ve got no idea whether anyone can gin up a foetry type situation with this — you hear these sorts of allegations all the time, and who cares, except if something truly egregious is exposed (possibly involving sexual intercourse!) (which doesn’t yet appear to be the case, w/this one).
We all know this publication game is sausage-making, to greater or lesser degrees. And that’s quite often a good thing. Mr. Butler has an excellent blog post from a year or two back about precisely the sort of shit young writers should do to build relationships that will help them one day get published. So, whatever.
Here’s the thing, though — the reason that there’s built-up animus against Narrative, that leads to posts like this, is: to me there’s an ethical line, or at least a line of taste, when you’re charging the aspiring hordes 20 bucks a pop to read their shit. (I’m similiarly annoyed w/Glimmer Train, for hosting 8,000 contests a year.) I understand perfectly well that these cash cow submission-systems are what keep these places going. But god, the sadness, the desperation of the slush pile — to my mind, there’s a pawn-shop, preying-on-the-desperate grossness to Narrative’s system. (Preying on the lowest of the low, the impoverisht, the poor sad writers.)
Which is cool! I’m not saying shut them down; it’s precisely this system that allows for 1 2 and 3 above! Just I think it’s worth admitting it’s gross. Perhaps it’s justified by the fact that we get to read Jayne Anne Phillips and Tobias Woff for free, and the writers and editors and web people on the good side of it all happen to get paid (minimally). I’m just saying there’s an ethical thing here, which is always right up in my brain when i think of Narrative. (Though a very inconsequential one, in terms of, like, the world, that only a few readers of this here book blog care about.) (also, perhaps Narrative doesn”t draw whole bunches of crazy, sad, bad writers into their web at $20 a pop — in which case, my argument makes no sense.)
and yeah, this is a knives sharp cos stakes are low issue. who gives a fuck about any of it, really? but hey, i’ve written like 1000 words about this shit today on this thread. So clearly I’m a champ of doing stupid bullshit when I shouldn’t be reading on the Internet, but rather writing or reading actual fiction! W00t! I’m an idiot!
Sure, Justin, of course, and the fact that:
1) ann beattie gets paid (minimally)
2) some editor gets paid (minimally) (I guess? not quite clear on that, cos i’m not good at tax forms)
3) some computer dude gets paid (minimally)
is good. i mean, we should all strive for a world in which writing produces more money for more people who write, as well as for the people who thrust that writing out into the world. And i’ve got no idea whether anyone can gin up a foetry type situation with this — you hear these sorts of allegations all the time, and who cares, except if something truly egregious is exposed (possibly involving sexual intercourse!) (which doesn’t yet appear to be the case, w/this one).
We all know this publication game is sausage-making, to greater or lesser degrees. And that’s quite often a good thing. Mr. Butler has an excellent blog post from a year or two back about precisely the sort of shit young writers should do to build relationships that will help them one day get published. So, whatever.
Here’s the thing, though — the reason that there’s built-up animus against Narrative, that leads to posts like this, is: to me there’s an ethical line, or at least a line of taste, when you’re charging the aspiring hordes 20 bucks a pop to read their shit. (I’m similiarly annoyed w/Glimmer Train, for hosting 8,000 contests a year.) I understand perfectly well that these cash cow submission-systems are what keep these places going. But god, the sadness, the desperation of the slush pile — to my mind, there’s a pawn-shop, preying-on-the-desperate grossness to Narrative’s system. (Preying on the lowest of the low, the impoverisht, the poor sad writers.)
Which is cool! I’m not saying shut them down; it’s precisely this system that allows for 1 2 and 3 above! Just I think it’s worth admitting it’s gross. Perhaps it’s justified by the fact that we get to read Jayne Anne Phillips and Tobias Woff for free, and the writers and editors and web people on the good side of it all happen to get paid (minimally). I’m just saying there’s an ethical thing here, which is always right up in my brain when i think of Narrative. (Though a very inconsequential one, in terms of, like, the world, that only a few readers of this here book blog care about.) (also, perhaps Narrative doesn”t draw whole bunches of crazy, sad, bad writers into their web at $20 a pop — in which case, my argument makes no sense.)
and yeah, this is a knives sharp cos stakes are low issue. who gives a fuck about any of it, really? but hey, i’ve written like 1000 words about this shit today on this thread. So clearly I’m a champ of doing stupid bullshit when I shouldn’t be reading on the Internet, but rather writing or reading actual fiction! W00t! I’m an idiot!
i apologize if you took that as me railing at you, justin. because it wasn’t. i just dont understand how it can be considered acceptable for money to be spent in this way.
people think the idea ‘capitalism’ means ‘get away with what you can, where you can’ and since its going on everywhere, well, why call anybody on it?
well, nobody is really calling narrative on their shit. because ultimately, yes, what they do is expendable, so it seems less vital to call out.
But really, and this is more the point: if they were just taking those tax dollars and farting them into enlarged salaries for something that takes very little time (i’m sorry, being a webmaster IS NOT a full time job, or even really a weekly part time one, esp for an entity that is 4x a year), it would probably be something that i’d ignore, or not even have noticed in the first place.
its not the wastefulness or the model that bothers me, it’s the way it is applied, iwhich have been discussed here to death, the fees, the questionable selection processes, etc., that grind me. these numbers just make it that much more vile.
not to mention, after all this, then praised by places as ‘the gold standard’ of online publication, and not to mention this year’s ‘best online magazine’ by story south.
i apologize if you took that as me railing at you, justin. because it wasn’t. i just dont understand how it can be considered acceptable for money to be spent in this way.
people think the idea ‘capitalism’ means ‘get away with what you can, where you can’ and since its going on everywhere, well, why call anybody on it?
well, nobody is really calling narrative on their shit. because ultimately, yes, what they do is expendable, so it seems less vital to call out.
But really, and this is more the point: if they were just taking those tax dollars and farting them into enlarged salaries for something that takes very little time (i’m sorry, being a webmaster IS NOT a full time job, or even really a weekly part time one, esp for an entity that is 4x a year), it would probably be something that i’d ignore, or not even have noticed in the first place.
its not the wastefulness or the model that bothers me, it’s the way it is applied, iwhich have been discussed here to death, the fees, the questionable selection processes, etc., that grind me. these numbers just make it that much more vile.
not to mention, after all this, then praised by places as ‘the gold standard’ of online publication, and not to mention this year’s ‘best online magazine’ by story south.
ha. yes.
ha. yes.
Yes, 20 bucks is a lot for a submission. It’s beyond the limits of good taste. No question. But believe it or not, HTMLGiant went through all this re Narrative several months ago, which is part of the reason I find it troubling and tiresome to be going over all these things again. It’s deadhorse-kicking, at best.
But in that spirit, allow me to repeat the argument I made when Giant went over all this the first time: I think the high entry fee is not about bilking people but rather about scaring them off. They don’t *want* your submission. They’re *trying* to make you think twice. At least twice.
Mark, in the anecdote you just related, you said you balked at the price of submission, and so didn’t submit something you knew ahead of time was absolutely wrong for them. Basically, they saved you the money, and you saved them the time of reading and responding to something you and they both knew they were never going to publish anyway.
And you’re a person who has more experience with publishing (you have an MFA, you’ve worked for any number of publishers and agencies and magazines in various capacities, office-side AND writer-side) than 95% of the people out there. You’ve been the guy stuck slogging through all the slush sent in by people who obviously were firing blind, and yet that didn’t stop you from nearly becoming one of those people yourself. What stopped you was the cover charge. Somebody explain to me how that’s NOT an example of the system functioning exactly the way it’s supposed to.
Yes, 20 bucks is a lot for a submission. It’s beyond the limits of good taste. No question. But believe it or not, HTMLGiant went through all this re Narrative several months ago, which is part of the reason I find it troubling and tiresome to be going over all these things again. It’s deadhorse-kicking, at best.
But in that spirit, allow me to repeat the argument I made when Giant went over all this the first time: I think the high entry fee is not about bilking people but rather about scaring them off. They don’t *want* your submission. They’re *trying* to make you think twice. At least twice.
Mark, in the anecdote you just related, you said you balked at the price of submission, and so didn’t submit something you knew ahead of time was absolutely wrong for them. Basically, they saved you the money, and you saved them the time of reading and responding to something you and they both knew they were never going to publish anyway.
And you’re a person who has more experience with publishing (you have an MFA, you’ve worked for any number of publishers and agencies and magazines in various capacities, office-side AND writer-side) than 95% of the people out there. You’ve been the guy stuck slogging through all the slush sent in by people who obviously were firing blind, and yet that didn’t stop you from nearly becoming one of those people yourself. What stopped you was the cover charge. Somebody explain to me how that’s NOT an example of the system functioning exactly the way it’s supposed to.
Blake- no offense taken, and yes, I can see how it would really skin your ass to see Narrative take home accolades, given the way you feel about how they operate. I guess it just surprises me that this of all things should be what shatters your basic “live and let live” outlook. Relative to the kind of literature you’re primarily interested in reading, practicing, and championing, Narrative magazine might as well be Better Homes & Gardens, no?
Blake- no offense taken, and yes, I can see how it would really skin your ass to see Narrative take home accolades, given the way you feel about how they operate. I guess it just surprises me that this of all things should be what shatters your basic “live and let live” outlook. Relative to the kind of literature you’re primarily interested in reading, practicing, and championing, Narrative magazine might as well be Better Homes & Gardens, no?
you are probably right. ultimately it does not matter, and anyone who gives Narrative $20 is doing it at their own behest, which how can i bitch when both parties are *seemingly* ‘getting what they want.’
in the end, it’s not something i’d lose sleep over, but more so just something i find so ludicrous in presence that i can’t help but want to talk shit about it, you know? it seems so antithetical to the cause, to the spirit of the whole thing, that sometimes i can’t help myself spout.
you are probably right. ultimately it does not matter, and anyone who gives Narrative $20 is doing it at their own behest, which how can i bitch when both parties are *seemingly* ‘getting what they want.’
in the end, it’s not something i’d lose sleep over, but more so just something i find so ludicrous in presence that i can’t help but want to talk shit about it, you know? it seems so antithetical to the cause, to the spirit of the whole thing, that sometimes i can’t help myself spout.
more so, too, probably, is that there is so much more that they could be doing with that money. so many other places it would seem to me that would make a much bigger impact with it. maybe that’s the real and final point. there’s so little money in this game already. and here it seems being mostly flushed down a hole.
more so, too, probably, is that there is so much more that they could be doing with that money. so many other places it would seem to me that would make a much bigger impact with it. maybe that’s the real and final point. there’s so little money in this game already. and here it seems being mostly flushed down a hole.
What I find notable is how much they bring in based on contests and fees and grants — and how little of it is redistributed to the writers they do publish.
Yes, it costs money to run an online magazine. Sure, professional editing can be pricey. Apparently webmasters are still costly in this day and age (!!??!!!).
What I find notable is how much they bring in based on contests and fees and grants — and how little of it is redistributed to the writers they do publish.
Yes, it costs money to run an online magazine. Sure, professional editing can be pricey. Apparently webmasters are still costly in this day and age (!!??!!!).
Agreed. I’d webmaster for $2k a year and edit for $3k a year. Narrative blows anyway. Fucking ponzi scheme is what it is.
Agreed. I’d webmaster for $2k a year and edit for $3k a year. Narrative blows anyway. Fucking ponzi scheme is what it is.
Why, with all this discussion about the ponzi scheme that Narrative is, does it never get mentioned that , despite the “names” they publish, the quality of the work they present is sub par? There are 100 other online mags that outshine them. many of them even publish on a monthly basis.
Why, with all this discussion about the ponzi scheme that Narrative is, does it never get mentioned that , despite the “names” they publish, the quality of the work they present is sub par? There are 100 other online mags that outshine them. many of them even publish on a monthly basis.
You really think the charge is more about getting people not to submit than about making money?
I think I have to disagree. A nominal fee of three or four bucks would deter almost as many people as a 20 dollar fee I think. Charging 20 dollars is about funding the magazine. About finding the money to pay the editors and webmasters and the authors. So some of that is good.
But what rubs me the wrong way about a website like Narrative is that I don’t get the impression they really publish many people from the slush pile. They seem to publish big name people who I assume are solicited. In that way, it seems dishonest and somewhat like a scam.
You really think the charge is more about getting people not to submit than about making money?
I think I have to disagree. A nominal fee of three or four bucks would deter almost as many people as a 20 dollar fee I think. Charging 20 dollars is about funding the magazine. About finding the money to pay the editors and webmasters and the authors. So some of that is good.
But what rubs me the wrong way about a website like Narrative is that I don’t get the impression they really publish many people from the slush pile. They seem to publish big name people who I assume are solicited. In that way, it seems dishonest and somewhat like a scam.
You’re wasting good time on this, friends. Narrative doesn’t exist.
You’re wasting good time on this, friends. Narrative doesn’t exist.
Narrative Magazine is for housewives and little girls.
Tom Jenks and Carol Edgarian aren’t Doors fans.
All that new stuff sucks, but it’s over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xillqqt0Y0
Narrative Magazine is for housewives and little girls.
Tom Jenks and Carol Edgarian aren’t Doors fans.
All that new stuff sucks, but it’s over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xillqqt0Y0
Dude, Justin, obviously, I believe — because I have to — that upper echelon literary venues will expand (like amoebas eating little weird microbes, or something) to publish me. I send unsuitable shit to all sorts of places, because I write weird pathological stories about politics, and I want to publish them one day in book form, and I truly believe that Agni or Harpers or VQR or Narrative or someone will eventually say yes. I believe that because that’s what I need to believe. Case in point: an editor at the Missouri Review sent me a personal note on a long, strange, formally aggressive story. They didn’t publish it, but apparently came close. Because I put it in the mail. And who would have fucking thought that that a weird angry psychotic story about a former NYTImes reporter would get anything but a form reject there? So yeah, Narrative is not a natural fit for me, but really, not much (apart from the wonderful ag reader!) is. And I am happy to suck it up — and have sucked it up — when it comes to those venues that ask for a 2 or 3 dollar submission fee. That makes sense. All this to say: it is possible hold in your head the idea that a given venue is inappropriate for you, along with the idea that a venue that publishes Jayne Anne Phillips, or some such author who’s had an impact on your own development as a writer, is precisely where to send your work.
Please don’t confuse me with the guy writing the arab/papal-conspiracy blow-up-baltimore story, on whose behalf I’m saying Narrative is acting sort of tacky.
Another for instance: the small press I work at has a relatively staid idea about what a novel is, but on the other hand, the list is constantly in flux. So I know from my side that weird shit does indeed get through.
Again, none of this is interesting to anyone, apart from 17 people, and the two narrative eds, who are no doubt poring over our every word.
I didn’t read HTML Giant a few months ago, sorry to hear this is all a retread. Link? Or are you going to make me google that shit?
Dude, Justin, obviously, I believe — because I have to — that upper echelon literary venues will expand (like amoebas eating little weird microbes, or something) to publish me. I send unsuitable shit to all sorts of places, because I write weird pathological stories about politics, and I want to publish them one day in book form, and I truly believe that Agni or Harpers or VQR or Narrative or someone will eventually say yes. I believe that because that’s what I need to believe. Case in point: an editor at the Missouri Review sent me a personal note on a long, strange, formally aggressive story. They didn’t publish it, but apparently came close. Because I put it in the mail. And who would have fucking thought that that a weird angry psychotic story about a former NYTImes reporter would get anything but a form reject there? So yeah, Narrative is not a natural fit for me, but really, not much (apart from the wonderful ag reader!) is. And I am happy to suck it up — and have sucked it up — when it comes to those venues that ask for a 2 or 3 dollar submission fee. That makes sense. All this to say: it is possible hold in your head the idea that a given venue is inappropriate for you, along with the idea that a venue that publishes Jayne Anne Phillips, or some such author who’s had an impact on your own development as a writer, is precisely where to send your work.
Please don’t confuse me with the guy writing the arab/papal-conspiracy blow-up-baltimore story, on whose behalf I’m saying Narrative is acting sort of tacky.
Another for instance: the small press I work at has a relatively staid idea about what a novel is, but on the other hand, the list is constantly in flux. So I know from my side that weird shit does indeed get through.
Again, none of this is interesting to anyone, apart from 17 people, and the two narrative eds, who are no doubt poring over our every word.
I didn’t read HTML Giant a few months ago, sorry to hear this is all a retread. Link? Or are you going to make me google that shit?
ok, cos i’m cool like that, here’s the earlier thread:
http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4725
ok, cos i’m cool like that, here’s the earlier thread:
http://htmlgiant.com/?p=4725
Mr. Butler has an excellent blog post from a year or two back about precisely the sort of shit young writers should do to build relationships that will help them one day get published.
link?
Mr. Butler has an excellent blog post from a year or two back about precisely the sort of shit young writers should do to build relationships that will help them one day get published.
link?
I think the man himself should chime in here — not readily googlable. It’s classic, though, unless I’m totally fucked up in my memory, and such a post doesn’t exist, or it was written by someone else.
Blake?
I think the man himself should chime in here — not readily googlable. It’s classic, though, unless I’m totally fucked up in my memory, and such a post doesn’t exist, or it was written by someone else.
Blake?
hi everyone and thank you for reading this post. i want to offer a thought or two after reading these comments.
fulldisclosure: ive sent to them once (the first person contest), gave it a shot because, i dunno, why not? and was rejected. maybe that wasnt a solid, responsbile, nodelike move on my part, so i deserved it: i didnt read the mag before and i dont now, unles someone i know has a piece there, which has happened once, i think.
that said, please dont think my rejection is why i dislike the magazine. if i disliked every mag that rejected me, then id have a lot of posts to make on this blog.
i published this post because i had read recently around the internet new discussions about narrative, and i saw there wasnt an actual link to the information in the 990. i felt there was a need to post it. i realize htmlgiant already went over this issue before, as justin says, but i also think that the 990 is new information (new to the discussion anyhow) and somewhat relevant/interesting to look at. yeah, the discussion risks descending into the same old expected arguments, but i think tahts because usually the same people comment on these threads (not a bad thing).
i guess i was thinking that this post could be useful to anyone else out there in need of more information so as to make a decision or something about submitting/supporting the magazine.
does this info solve anything? prove anything? does it give us anything more specific regarding how the magazine makes use of reading fees? no. what it does do, or does for me anyhow, is gives me a general sense of the magazines operation, how they spend big chunks of money, what $ = author payment, etc., and the mags net worth. thats all. its just a 990 form filed by a nonprofit.
this post brought to you by McDonald’s. I’m lovin’ it!
hi everyone and thank you for reading this post. i want to offer a thought or two after reading these comments.
fulldisclosure: ive sent to them once (the first person contest), gave it a shot because, i dunno, why not? and was rejected. maybe that wasnt a solid, responsbile, nodelike move on my part, so i deserved it: i didnt read the mag before and i dont now, unles someone i know has a piece there, which has happened once, i think.
that said, please dont think my rejection is why i dislike the magazine. if i disliked every mag that rejected me, then id have a lot of posts to make on this blog.
i published this post because i had read recently around the internet new discussions about narrative, and i saw there wasnt an actual link to the information in the 990. i felt there was a need to post it. i realize htmlgiant already went over this issue before, as justin says, but i also think that the 990 is new information (new to the discussion anyhow) and somewhat relevant/interesting to look at. yeah, the discussion risks descending into the same old expected arguments, but i think tahts because usually the same people comment on these threads (not a bad thing).
i guess i was thinking that this post could be useful to anyone else out there in need of more information so as to make a decision or something about submitting/supporting the magazine.
does this info solve anything? prove anything? does it give us anything more specific regarding how the magazine makes use of reading fees? no. what it does do, or does for me anyhow, is gives me a general sense of the magazines operation, how they spend big chunks of money, what $ = author payment, etc., and the mags net worth. thats all. its just a 990 form filed by a nonprofit.
this post brought to you by McDonald’s. I’m lovin’ it!
http://blakebutler.blogspot.com/2008/07/where-did-lucy-purchase-her-new-vagina.html
http://blakebutler.blogspot.com/2008/07/where-did-lucy-purchase-her-new-vagina.html
yes, this is intresting, agreed
i guess im not too concerned about ‘subpar’ or whatever here.
yes, this is intresting, agreed
i guess im not too concerned about ‘subpar’ or whatever here.
i doubt thats an issue really. the thing at narrative is, if you dont pay the $20 then youre not eligible for their big prize at the end of the year, the narrative prize. seems like a resonable setup in that sense.
i doubt thats an issue really. the thing at narrative is, if you dont pay the $20 then youre not eligible for their big prize at the end of the year, the narrative prize. seems like a resonable setup in that sense.
Let’s ask the lady with the singular name: Myfanwy Collins. She’s an associate editor at Narrative, which I think there means she makes the “chaching” noise when people submit.
Here: http://www.myfanwycollins.com/
Let’s ask the lady with the singular name: Myfanwy Collins. She’s an associate editor at Narrative, which I think there means she makes the “chaching” noise when people submit.
Here: http://www.myfanwycollins.com/
white wine + internet commenting = last night i was maybe a little more worked up about all this than I should have been.
but justin is still wrong.
white wine + internet commenting = last night i was maybe a little more worked up about all this than I should have been.
but justin is still wrong.
I don’t see the point of all this bitching. I found this post informative and interesting, though it doesn’t make me feel that Narrative is any less valuable an entity. I kind of wish they’d have a forum or something, so newcomers to online lit would know for sure that Narrative is not the end-all be-all. But then they’d just find a lot of crappy mags with spelling errors by self-important writers who sometimes come across as illiterate. That was a really good description of myself, sure, but there are others reading this who, somewhere inside, in that place where truth still lives, also want to admit this.
I don’t see the point of all this bitching. I found this post informative and interesting, though it doesn’t make me feel that Narrative is any less valuable an entity. I kind of wish they’d have a forum or something, so newcomers to online lit would know for sure that Narrative is not the end-all be-all. But then they’d just find a lot of crappy mags with spelling errors by self-important writers who sometimes come across as illiterate. That was a really good description of myself, sure, but there are others reading this who, somewhere inside, in that place where truth still lives, also want to admit this.
I don’t know why I’m being singled out to respond to this post… I’m on the defensive here because I do not like being accused of making money on people submitting when nothing could be farther from the truth.
I, like the other editors I know at Narrative (and most other literary journals), am a VOLUNTEER editor. I make no money and spend many hours reading, thinking about, and commenting on submissions. Each and every submission (whether it comes in during the no-fee period or not) is read all the way through and commented on. No submission is cast aside simply because the writer did not pay.
I know it’s fun to engage in idle speculation, but really we’re just human beings who love literature. From my experience working with them, I can tell you that Tom and Carol are not the enemy–they’re just people who want to do what’s best for writers and writing. That’s it in a nutshell.
Thanks.
I don’t know why I’m being singled out to respond to this post… I’m on the defensive here because I do not like being accused of making money on people submitting when nothing could be farther from the truth.
I, like the other editors I know at Narrative (and most other literary journals), am a VOLUNTEER editor. I make no money and spend many hours reading, thinking about, and commenting on submissions. Each and every submission (whether it comes in during the no-fee period or not) is read all the way through and commented on. No submission is cast aside simply because the writer did not pay.
I know it’s fun to engage in idle speculation, but really we’re just human beings who love literature. From my experience working with them, I can tell you that Tom and Carol are not the enemy–they’re just people who want to do what’s best for writers and writing. That’s it in a nutshell.
Thanks.
Ooops. I meant to post my reply to this particular response and not the thread as a whole. Sorry.
Ooops. I meant to post my reply to this particular response and not the thread as a whole. Sorry.
hi myfanwy, you’ve been singled out by one commentor, an anonymous commentor really. i dont think the focus of the discussion is the staff, etc, but how the editorsinchief have decided to operate the magazine, colelcting many fees and publishing various wriers. sure, its speculation as to how much profit those fees generate, and i dont think anyone here has actually gone through the archives to see how many new authors are published versus how many authors on tom jenks’ client list at narrative.info win contests. but i still dont think its idle speculation.
i htink most of us appreciate what the volunteer readers do as well as how narrative will often ask someone theyve published to then be a reader. i think those kinds of things are normal for lit journals.
thanks for commenting
hi myfanwy, you’ve been singled out by one commentor, an anonymous commentor really. i dont think the focus of the discussion is the staff, etc, but how the editorsinchief have decided to operate the magazine, colelcting many fees and publishing various wriers. sure, its speculation as to how much profit those fees generate, and i dont think anyone here has actually gone through the archives to see how many new authors are published versus how many authors on tom jenks’ client list at narrative.info win contests. but i still dont think its idle speculation.
i htink most of us appreciate what the volunteer readers do as well as how narrative will often ask someone theyve published to then be a reader. i think those kinds of things are normal for lit journals.
thanks for commenting
Yes, Ryan, sorry–I meant to respond to that post only (I went back up and said that). I can’t speak for Narrative as a whole–only for myself. So when I said “idle speculation”–I was referring to that person suggesting that I was making money on writers. I’m human and it hurts my feelings. Honestly, I wouldn’t have responded here at all if my name hadn’t been posted in the comments and my site linked to. But also, I admire Tom and Carol and what they’re doing, otherwise I would not work there. That’s all I’m going to say and thanks for the opportunity to say it.
Yes, Ryan, sorry–I meant to respond to that post only (I went back up and said that). I can’t speak for Narrative as a whole–only for myself. So when I said “idle speculation”–I was referring to that person suggesting that I was making money on writers. I’m human and it hurts my feelings. Honestly, I wouldn’t have responded here at all if my name hadn’t been posted in the comments and my site linked to. But also, I admire Tom and Carol and what they’re doing, otherwise I would not work there. That’s all I’m going to say and thanks for the opportunity to say it.
excellent myfanwy, thanks for this and so on. i just saw your comment in the nest above. misccomunication.
and im sorry your feelings were hurt.
i will have ‘booya’ destroyed immediately.
excellent myfanwy, thanks for this and so on. i just saw your comment in the nest above. misccomunication.
and im sorry your feelings were hurt.
i will have ‘booya’ destroyed immediately.
Also, I thought I should note: a writer whose name isn’t as important as it should be, Alicia Gifford, was published in Narrative years ago. One of her latest endeavors was to publish at Dogzplot. I hope my point here is clear.
Also, I thought I should note: a writer whose name isn’t as important as it should be, Alicia Gifford, was published in Narrative years ago. One of her latest endeavors was to publish at Dogzplot. I hope my point here is clear.
I think I just, in my head, started to like Justin Taylor and Blake Butler. Blake Butler’s novella might have just moved up the reading list a little. I don’t know. This is a good thread. It should be stickytized for awhile so we can all get our shots in, then we can all agree that the case is pretty much closed until the FBI raids Narrative’s offices or something?
I think I just, in my head, started to like Justin Taylor and Blake Butler. Blake Butler’s novella might have just moved up the reading list a little. I don’t know. This is a good thread. It should be stickytized for awhile so we can all get our shots in, then we can all agree that the case is pretty much closed until the FBI raids Narrative’s offices or something?
Man, I’m another one who doesn’t get all the animosity. Narrative is trying something different. They are the best paying online venue for fiction, CNF, poetry etc. The money to pay writers has to come from somewhere.
They publish plenty of new/young/unknown writers. They’ve landed a story in next year’s BASS, a huge precedent for ALL online literature. Narrative published my story in 2004 after I’d been bad-mouthing it all over the internet for its reading fees, and they knew it. Why? Tom Jenks and Carol Edgarian liked my story. They paid me $350 for it, and no, I didn’t pay a reading fee. I’m a nobody. They published me after I was dissing them like mad. That’s an act of generosity, not rapacity
2007 might be the year they revamped their website, got a whole new design. That might account for the webmaster fee that year. Who fucking cares? They do what they do and if you think it’s a bogus Ponzi scheme publishing sub par fiction, don’t read it, don’t submit.
Man, I’m another one who doesn’t get all the animosity. Narrative is trying something different. They are the best paying online venue for fiction, CNF, poetry etc. The money to pay writers has to come from somewhere.
They publish plenty of new/young/unknown writers. They’ve landed a story in next year’s BASS, a huge precedent for ALL online literature. Narrative published my story in 2004 after I’d been bad-mouthing it all over the internet for its reading fees, and they knew it. Why? Tom Jenks and Carol Edgarian liked my story. They paid me $350 for it, and no, I didn’t pay a reading fee. I’m a nobody. They published me after I was dissing them like mad. That’s an act of generosity, not rapacity
2007 might be the year they revamped their website, got a whole new design. That might account for the webmaster fee that year. Who fucking cares? They do what they do and if you think it’s a bogus Ponzi scheme publishing sub par fiction, don’t read it, don’t submit.
No offense, but it seems slightly odd to say you don’t get how there is hostility towards narrative but then admit you used to bad mouth them all over the place.
That is good to know they publish work that comes in during the none-fee zone though.
No offense, but it seems slightly odd to say you don’t get how there is hostility towards narrative but then admit you used to bad mouth them all over the place.
That is good to know they publish work that comes in during the none-fee zone though.
Narrative’s business model–their ethos–clearly does not seem egalitarian. But why should it be? When talented editors are made to do most of the hard work for the magazine, and are paid nothing? When they can generate multi-pronged income streams, via submission fees, and contest fees, and fees for “special content?” Not to mention blue plate fund raising dinners. Etcetera. Should Narrative Magazine “melt down?” Should they be visited by some crisis of conscience, and start dispensing largess like a loony rich guy handing out hundred dollar bills in Central Park? They seem pretty All American to me. Clearly above reproach. Narrative’s intent is to make money, and they are flourishing. They’re not going away, any time soon.
Unless they get too greedy, and cut their own throats.
Time will tell.
–DM
I sent a short short there to the slush pile a few years ago and they accepted it. I sent it because I like the magazine, just as I like so many others. Is the story shit? Maybe so, but I’m just trying to get my stuff out there.
I sent a short short there to the slush pile a few years ago and they accepted it. I sent it because I like the magazine, just as I like so many others. Is the story shit? Maybe so, but I’m just trying to get my stuff out there.
It was my knee jerk reaction to diss them when I heard about their reading fees. Mention “reading fees” and a whole lotta writers’ knees start jerking. This was in 2004 when they first started. I didn’t submit to them via their slushpile. After looking at the site and seeing Tom Jenks’s impressive tour de force as an editor, I inquired about his editorial services (yes, after dissing their reading fees). He asked for a sample of my work before anything else. I sent him some samples and he said the best way he thought he could help me was by publishing one of the stories. We never discussed his editorial services after that. He published my story and it won the Million Writers Award for 2004.
Since then I’ve come to appreciate them as an innovative business model for the lit world. I see the reading fees much like entering a contest. You pay $20 to submit. If your story is accepted, it’s like being short-listed for the annual Narrative Prize (I didn’t qualify for Prize consideration since I didn’t pay the reading fee). You get a minimum of $350 for being short-listed. Your story gets published alongside huge and famous writers. If you give a shit about prestige, it’s there. If you don’t give a shit about prestige, it’s still there. If you win the prize (and there’s only a handful of new/emerging writers competing in a year), you get $4000.
Many, many lit journals subsidize themselves with contests and contest fees. I don’t see Narrative’s model as all that different. I hear that writers shouldn’t have to subsidize lit magazines. Who else will? It’s always the writers who subsidize them, whether directly by subscribing oand entering contests with fees, or indirectly by paying MFA tuition fees to fund the creative writing programs that subsidize Ploughshares and VQR, etc. Lit fic is primarily consumed and subsidized by writers (or deep pockets, like Tin House, and hooray for Win McCormack), not John Q. Public.
It was my knee jerk reaction to diss them when I heard about their reading fees. Mention “reading fees” and a whole lotta writers’ knees start jerking. This was in 2004 when they first started. I didn’t submit to them via their slushpile. After looking at the site and seeing Tom Jenks’s impressive tour de force as an editor, I inquired about his editorial services (yes, after dissing their reading fees). He asked for a sample of my work before anything else. I sent him some samples and he said the best way he thought he could help me was by publishing one of the stories. We never discussed his editorial services after that. He published my story and it won the Million Writers Award for 2004.
Since then I’ve come to appreciate them as an innovative business model for the lit world. I see the reading fees much like entering a contest. You pay $20 to submit. If your story is accepted, it’s like being short-listed for the annual Narrative Prize (I didn’t qualify for Prize consideration since I didn’t pay the reading fee). You get a minimum of $350 for being short-listed. Your story gets published alongside huge and famous writers. If you give a shit about prestige, it’s there. If you don’t give a shit about prestige, it’s still there. If you win the prize (and there’s only a handful of new/emerging writers competing in a year), you get $4000.
Many, many lit journals subsidize themselves with contests and contest fees. I don’t see Narrative’s model as all that different. I hear that writers shouldn’t have to subsidize lit magazines. Who else will? It’s always the writers who subsidize them, whether directly by subscribing oand entering contests with fees, or indirectly by paying MFA tuition fees to fund the creative writing programs that subsidize Ploughshares and VQR, etc. Lit fic is primarily consumed and subsidized by writers (or deep pockets, like Tin House, and hooray for Win McCormack), not John Q. Public.
Narrative Magazine terrifies me.
Narrative Magazine terrifies me.
I guess I’d have to disagree with you. Yes, many magazines do contests but 20 bucks is already a high price for a contest and as far as I know unheard of for a short-short contest. Indiana Review has a short-short contest and it costs 15 bucks, but you get 3 entries, 1,000 bucks for the winning and a year’s subscription to the print magazine. Narrative charges you 20 for one short-short prose submission and appears to only pay you 150.
So really not like a contest IMHO. Perhaps this is more a problem of grouping short shorts in with prose instead of poetry (and then charging 10 bucks for several “entries”) but even by contest standards the fees seem high the payouts somewhat low.
For payouts for normal submissions its great. And on some level I think maybe it is worth it to pay authors well if submitters foot the bill. Online magazines do need to form new business models.
But really there is only one thing that bothers me and it is the same thing that bothers me about magazines that demand no simultaneous submissions, and that is that it seems to me that these magazines are basically resting on the hard work that other magazines are doing. If every magazines or every big magazine charged 20 bucks a read the whole literary magazine world would implode. It would be unworkable. They say the average accepted story gets rejected 20 times before being accepted, writers would be paying 400 bucks a story for the change to maybe make 350 back?
Narrative’s model works because they are the only ones doing it, so writers such as oursleves can think “fuck it, i’ll pay 20 bucks to narrative. Its only 20 bucks and everyone else is reading this for free.” But they wouldn’t be able to think this if the other magazines weren’t picking up the slack, in a sense.
Not that this makes narrative the end of the world of a scourge of literary magazines, but still.
I guess I’d have to disagree with you. Yes, many magazines do contests but 20 bucks is already a high price for a contest and as far as I know unheard of for a short-short contest. Indiana Review has a short-short contest and it costs 15 bucks, but you get 3 entries, 1,000 bucks for the winning and a year’s subscription to the print magazine. Narrative charges you 20 for one short-short prose submission and appears to only pay you 150.
So really not like a contest IMHO. Perhaps this is more a problem of grouping short shorts in with prose instead of poetry (and then charging 10 bucks for several “entries”) but even by contest standards the fees seem high the payouts somewhat low.
For payouts for normal submissions its great. And on some level I think maybe it is worth it to pay authors well if submitters foot the bill. Online magazines do need to form new business models.
But really there is only one thing that bothers me and it is the same thing that bothers me about magazines that demand no simultaneous submissions, and that is that it seems to me that these magazines are basically resting on the hard work that other magazines are doing. If every magazines or every big magazine charged 20 bucks a read the whole literary magazine world would implode. It would be unworkable. They say the average accepted story gets rejected 20 times before being accepted, writers would be paying 400 bucks a story for the change to maybe make 350 back?
Narrative’s model works because they are the only ones doing it, so writers such as oursleves can think “fuck it, i’ll pay 20 bucks to narrative. Its only 20 bucks and everyone else is reading this for free.” But they wouldn’t be able to think this if the other magazines weren’t picking up the slack, in a sense.
Not that this makes narrative the end of the world of a scourge of literary magazines, but still.
You do make a good point about how writers always, in some way, subsidize journals. I think it is just a matter of degree though. If the fees were lower I dont’ think people would care, but 20 bucks for an online magazine that doesn’t give feedback or even necessarily respond that quickly…..
You do make a good point about how writers always, in some way, subsidize journals. I think it is just a matter of degree though. If the fees were lower I dont’ think people would care, but 20 bucks for an online magazine that doesn’t give feedback or even necessarily respond that quickly…..
small reading fees are a simple way for magazines to pay for the time/materials/etc required to read submissions when most submitters don’t subscribe to the magazines we submit to. it’s impossible to subscribe to all the ones we want to write for, for sure, but $2-3 seems reasonable to me. $20 is high relative to the others, but fair as long as it’s going to pay writers (we could argue about how much writers should vs. do get paid) and staff and fund other infastructure, that’s not unreasonable. it’s just unusual — they’re a totally different entity that we’ve seen before. we and likely they are in the “woah, trippy” phase maybe.
i’m not going to say i know how to spend other people’s money, but if narrative doesn’t judge their contest entries in as fair a way as a “blind judging” or whatever it’s called does, then that seems like the big problem. right now my big problem is finding honey for my damn tea that doesn’t have ants in it. they’re so tiny, these ants.
small reading fees are a simple way for magazines to pay for the time/materials/etc required to read submissions when most submitters don’t subscribe to the magazines we submit to. it’s impossible to subscribe to all the ones we want to write for, for sure, but $2-3 seems reasonable to me. $20 is high relative to the others, but fair as long as it’s going to pay writers (we could argue about how much writers should vs. do get paid) and staff and fund other infastructure, that’s not unreasonable. it’s just unusual — they’re a totally different entity that we’ve seen before. we and likely they are in the “woah, trippy” phase maybe.
i’m not going to say i know how to spend other people’s money, but if narrative doesn’t judge their contest entries in as fair a way as a “blind judging” or whatever it’s called does, then that seems like the big problem. right now my big problem is finding honey for my damn tea that doesn’t have ants in it. they’re so tiny, these ants.
heh, ok, so you hated them and talked shit about their practices, and then they published you (for free even!) and you won an award and now you speak on their behalf.
makes sense.
heh, ok, so you hated them and talked shit about their practices, and then they published you (for free even!) and you won an award and now you speak on their behalf.
makes sense.
Yeah, see, I’m a whore and I’ll sell my soul and kill my dog for $350 and a prize.
Yeah, see, I’m a whore and I’ll sell my soul and kill my dog for $350 and a prize.
L, I think Narrative could and should guarantee a quick and personal response for fee’d submissions, along with something constructive about the story, the reason it was rejected. If they did that maybe I’d pay to submit. I’ve paid contest fees to them twice, but not to submit.
The fees have been all over the place. For a while they reduced them to $10, I think $5 for short-shorts, now they’re back up. It seems they’re still working things out.
My main objection is to knee jerk responses to reading fees without looking at the whole picture. You’ve given thoughtful responses. It’s not going to be everyone’s cuppa.
L, I think Narrative could and should guarantee a quick and personal response for fee’d submissions, along with something constructive about the story, the reason it was rejected. If they did that maybe I’d pay to submit. I’ve paid contest fees to them twice, but not to submit.
The fees have been all over the place. For a while they reduced them to $10, I think $5 for short-shorts, now they’re back up. It seems they’re still working things out.
My main objection is to knee jerk responses to reading fees without looking at the whole picture. You’ve given thoughtful responses. It’s not going to be everyone’s cuppa.
Sorry Myfanwy, I wasn’t trying to implicate you in evildoing or direct hostilities at you. I should have phrased my post more clearly, since I only meant to suggest you as a source for behind-the-scenes info that could ease up all the speculating that was going down. I’ll think longer before posting like that again. And Ryan, I will now destroy myself. Booya.
Sorry Myfanwy, I wasn’t trying to implicate you in evildoing or direct hostilities at you. I should have phrased my post more clearly, since I only meant to suggest you as a source for behind-the-scenes info that could ease up all the speculating that was going down. I’ll think longer before posting like that again. And Ryan, I will now destroy myself. Booya.
And yes, volunteers are good. They’re like the forest elves of the lit mag world: you know they’re there even though you don’t see them (or is that a hobbit? Bad with mythology). Booya byebye
And yes, volunteers are good. They’re like the forest elves of the lit mag world: you know they’re there even though you don’t see them (or is that a hobbit? Bad with mythology). Booya byebye
haha, i am laughing.
yeah, i had a feeling you were just wanting a narrative person to weigh in. i think it would be nice to hear from someone. i know reese kwon, asst ed. at narrative, responded over here to some narrative talk.
http://ourstoriesblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/update-on-nepotism-defined.html
haha, i am laughing.
yeah, i had a feeling you were just wanting a narrative person to weigh in. i think it would be nice to hear from someone. i know reese kwon, asst ed. at narrative, responded over here to some narrative talk.
http://ourstoriesblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/update-on-nepotism-defined.html
Re: ants in your honey …
I had bees in my wall. I had to pay bee guys to haul out two huge hives and clean out about 100 pounds of honey (new honeycomb is exquisitely beautiful). I always saw bees outside and we had a very peaceful symbiotic co-existence. They never stung me until I had the bee guys come to get rid of them, then I got DIVE BOMBED. The bee guy’s face was swollen from bee stings from his previous job. They had to rip out tons of drywall, clean everything out all the honeycombs, then replace it.
It was FUCKED.
Re: ants in your honey …
I had bees in my wall. I had to pay bee guys to haul out two huge hives and clean out about 100 pounds of honey (new honeycomb is exquisitely beautiful). I always saw bees outside and we had a very peaceful symbiotic co-existence. They never stung me until I had the bee guys come to get rid of them, then I got DIVE BOMBED. The bee guy’s face was swollen from bee stings from his previous job. They had to rip out tons of drywall, clean everything out all the honeycombs, then replace it.
It was FUCKED.
Alicia, that is fucked. You must live in the Sunbelt. When I lived in Tucson, my apt — which was a tiny standalone unit in an old motor court — housed a gargantuan hive as well. One day I found a dead bee in the shower, next the closet. When I looked outside I noticed a perptually moving grey haze circling the unit, a winged ring of Saturn. The bee guy we called climbed onto the roof with no covering, and soon started shoveling dead wet bees onto our porch that landed with a thump like laundry. He said they were likely Africanized, as that was the hip trend in bees back in 1999 in southeastern AZ. Every bee was doing it, like beards in Williamsburg and fixed gears in Portland.
I’m rambling because I love this story and as horrific as yours sounds, I have to say, it is interesting. I drank my tea with a stray ant in it, no problem. I hope you’re faring better.
Alicia, that is fucked. You must live in the Sunbelt. When I lived in Tucson, my apt — which was a tiny standalone unit in an old motor court — housed a gargantuan hive as well. One day I found a dead bee in the shower, next the closet. When I looked outside I noticed a perptually moving grey haze circling the unit, a winged ring of Saturn. The bee guy we called climbed onto the roof with no covering, and soon started shoveling dead wet bees onto our porch that landed with a thump like laundry. He said they were likely Africanized, as that was the hip trend in bees back in 1999 in southeastern AZ. Every bee was doing it, like beards in Williamsburg and fixed gears in Portland.
I’m rambling because I love this story and as horrific as yours sounds, I have to say, it is interesting. I drank my tea with a stray ant in it, no problem. I hope you’re faring better.
I like the fact Narrative sends template rejections for paid subs. Shows they aren’t sucking up trying to hook a writer for more money. I suspect they understand this is a question of ethics and made a decision not to coddle writers who pay for subs.
If Narrative didn’t have the free sub period, I’d be the first to line them against the wall and yell “fire.” But they do have the free periods, which means writers wanting in the mag have options. I choose to sub for free. Seems like a no brainer, if you ask me.
I like the fact Narrative sends template rejections for paid subs. Shows they aren’t sucking up trying to hook a writer for more money. I suspect they understand this is a question of ethics and made a decision not to coddle writers who pay for subs.
If Narrative didn’t have the free sub period, I’d be the first to line them against the wall and yell “fire.” But they do have the free periods, which means writers wanting in the mag have options. I choose to sub for free. Seems like a no brainer, if you ask me.
Funny you should say that, L, because at Zoetrope right now there is a group of people bitching about a $2 fee. I think people would care no matter what the fee, because they feel entitled, are selfish and vain, and do not care about the future literature.
Funny you should say that, L, because at Zoetrope right now there is a group of people bitching about a $2 fee. I think people would care no matter what the fee, because they feel entitled, are selfish and vain, and do not care about the future literature.
PHM:
Well that was exactly my point earlier to justin, that I think a nominal fee would weed out 90% or more of the people who will be weeded out by a 20 dollar fee.
But as much as some people might complain about Zoetrope’s 2 dollar fee, no way will they become the scourge of writers in the way Narrative has. Missouri review charges 3 bucks, and I’ve never seen a blog post or anything attacking them, but I read them regularly about Narrative’s 20 dollar fees.
PHM:
Well that was exactly my point earlier to justin, that I think a nominal fee would weed out 90% or more of the people who will be weeded out by a 20 dollar fee.
But as much as some people might complain about Zoetrope’s 2 dollar fee, no way will they become the scourge of writers in the way Narrative has. Missouri review charges 3 bucks, and I’ve never seen a blog post or anything attacking them, but I read them regularly about Narrative’s 20 dollar fees.
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