Author Spotlight
Wigger Chick
These come from a chap-sized book I just found out about called ADVENTURES OF WIGGER CHICK. These aren’t even the best strips. There is one where in the first two frames Wigger Chick is eating pizza and watching TV and then in the third frame she says “I guess I jus’ bored a life” and you can see that there’s a cat eating her out.
Ordering Information:
Wigger chick book is $2 each postpaid in the U.S., or $3 each postage paid to anywhere else. There is also a comic Dinkel does called “Baby Sex” that I haven’t seen but I heard it is very graphic and disgusting and “embarrassing to be seen with.” It is also $2.
NO PAYPAL
NO CHECKS
NO MONEY ORDERS
Send well-concealed U.S. cash ONLY to:
L’Lumps, L.L.C.
P.O. Box 070161
Milwaukee, WI
53207
You should get it. I love it.
Tags: l'lumps, wigger chick
Those are fucking hilarious.
Those are fucking hilarious.
I learned a new word.
Hmm, something about these strips make me *very* nervous. And that’s not the hip, literary “nervous.” These don’t seem as edgy as they seem like the racist mimicry of elementary school boys.
Hmm, something about these strips make me *very* nervous. And that’s not the hip, literary “nervous.” These don’t seem as edgy as they seem like the racist mimicry of elementary school boys.
Yeah… When people make fun of ‘wiggers,’ it seems to work one of two ways… Either we laugh at the wigger because they try so hard to be “cool” and “act black” (which are essentially equivalent), but they are white, which is by definition “not cool,” e.g., Jamie Kennedy’s ‘Malibu’s Most Wanted.’ Or, we laugh at the wigger because they are basically a proxy for a racist caricature of black people, which seems to be the case with this comic strip. Both are racist, really, but I think the first can be done skillfully and be redemptive in some way. The second is simply bigotry.
Yeah… When people make fun of ‘wiggers,’ it seems to work one of two ways… Either we laugh at the wigger because they try so hard to be “cool” and “act black” (which are essentially equivalent), but they are white, which is by definition “not cool,” e.g., Jamie Kennedy’s ‘Malibu’s Most Wanted.’ Or, we laugh at the wigger because they are basically a proxy for a racist caricature of black people, which seems to be the case with this comic strip. Both are racist, really, but I think the first can be done skillfully and be redemptive in some way. The second is simply bigotry.
This is funny to you? This is not edgy or transgressive, just racist. “M” expresses it all very well, “Wigger Chick” in this strip is just a proxy to make a joke out of black people and the pathology that’s perceived as central to black culture. “Look how dumb black people are and how dumb lower class white people are for adopting anything they bring to society.” DW Griffith wouldn’t have drawn this strip any other way. And no, if Hpward Dinkel is black that doesn’t exonerate him. Would make it worse actually. Dumb ass shit. Reminds me a bit of cartoons me and my friends drew as tenth graders, but this is much more stupid. This strip is really only posted to get people riled so I’m pretty dumb for taking the bait. Good job Chelsea!
This is funny to you? This is not edgy or transgressive, just racist. “M” expresses it all very well, “Wigger Chick” in this strip is just a proxy to make a joke out of black people and the pathology that’s perceived as central to black culture. “Look how dumb black people are and how dumb lower class white people are for adopting anything they bring to society.” DW Griffith wouldn’t have drawn this strip any other way. And no, if Hpward Dinkel is black that doesn’t exonerate him. Would make it worse actually. Dumb ass shit. Reminds me a bit of cartoons me and my friends drew as tenth graders, but this is much more stupid. This strip is really only posted to get people riled so I’m pretty dumb for taking the bait. Good job Chelsea!
its racist to use the word ‘racist’
its racist to use the word ‘racist’
wow, I totally didn’t expect a meaningless reply….really zinged me there….
wow, I totally didn’t expect a meaningless reply….really zinged me there….
Ooops, HTML Giant jumped the shark.
Ooops, HTML Giant jumped the shark.
I agree but I don’t have the energy to get into it.
I agree but I don’t have the energy to get into it.
Are there are other ways to think about these strips as something more than ‘racist’?
Are there are other ways to think about these strips as something more than ‘racist’?
There is a point to be made about how we understand discourse and social relationships, specifically that it is time to move on from the presumption that violent language is synonymous with actual violence. But I don’t think I’m ready to treat it as a foregone conclusion. I think we’re still in a discovery phase, at least until Zizek answers a few more questions, and because of that we ought to move forward with grace. I would love for HTMLGIANT to be on the cutting edge of this argument, but posting controversial work without explanation is dismissive.
There is a point to be made about how we understand discourse and social relationships, specifically that it is time to move on from the presumption that violent language is synonymous with actual violence. But I don’t think I’m ready to treat it as a foregone conclusion. I think we’re still in a discovery phase, at least until Zizek answers a few more questions, and because of that we ought to move forward with grace. I would love for HTMLGIANT to be on the cutting edge of this argument, but posting controversial work without explanation is dismissive.
that you think controversial work requires explanation is dismissive.
that you think controversial work requires explanation is dismissive.
but yes, a discussion thereafter is kind of the point of posting? if we can get past the basic, oh that’s racist?
but yes, a discussion thereafter is kind of the point of posting? if we can get past the basic, oh that’s racist?
Well, it might be. And I’m not questioning the work, but the credibility of the critic.
Well, it might be. And I’m not questioning the work, but the credibility of the critic.
Try to deconstruct the word ‘wigger’ and have it not be ‘racist.’
Try to deconstruct the word ‘wigger’ and have it not be ‘racist.’
why do you need to deconstruct it
I guess I’m really interested in the point that is almost being made.
But OK: the vagina in the second one is hilarious. The drawings in the second to last one are spot on. Her posture in the first frame is the best of the best.
why do you need to deconstruct it
I guess I’m really interested in the point that is almost being made.
But OK: the vagina in the second one is hilarious. The drawings in the second to last one are spot on. Her posture in the first frame is the best of the best.
so, wait. i’m confused. art (and we can talk outside the confines of this piece if you don’t want to call these toons ‘art’) exists for its context? for the point it’s making outside itself?
or do you mean, that someone can’t point at something without having a particular, well phrased reason for pointing it out?
adam, adam.
so, wait. i’m confused. art (and we can talk outside the confines of this piece if you don’t want to call these toons ‘art’) exists for its context? for the point it’s making outside itself?
or do you mean, that someone can’t point at something without having a particular, well phrased reason for pointing it out?
adam, adam.
No, not really, and I’ll tell you why. This would work if it were making some kind of interesting commentary on the phenomenon of the “wigger” and the ways in which some white people like to perform their narrow perceptions of blackness but that isn’t what this comic strip is doing. This is a sad parody of stereotypes about black people. It’s neither funny or interesting which it would have to be, to be more than racist. Start with the ridiculous language. I mean really. Then of course, there is the word “wigger” which is just a thinly disguised way of saying white nigger. What on earth would make anyone think this is anything but racist? Controversial art is important but this isn’t controversial. It’s facile.
It’s pretty frustrating to have to even address this sort of thing because when you say something like this comic strip is racist you’re accused of not having a sense of humor and that’s not at all the case. Take, for example, a comedian like Dave Chappelle or Paul Mooney. They offer interesting, thoughtful but funny critiques on race and the ways in which people perform race. Their critiques might seem racist but they’re executed in really intelligent ways.
No, not really, and I’ll tell you why. This would work if it were making some kind of interesting commentary on the phenomenon of the “wigger” and the ways in which some white people like to perform their narrow perceptions of blackness but that isn’t what this comic strip is doing. This is a sad parody of stereotypes about black people. It’s neither funny or interesting which it would have to be, to be more than racist. Start with the ridiculous language. I mean really. Then of course, there is the word “wigger” which is just a thinly disguised way of saying white nigger. What on earth would make anyone think this is anything but racist? Controversial art is important but this isn’t controversial. It’s facile.
It’s pretty frustrating to have to even address this sort of thing because when you say something like this comic strip is racist you’re accused of not having a sense of humor and that’s not at all the case. Take, for example, a comedian like Dave Chappelle or Paul Mooney. They offer interesting, thoughtful but funny critiques on race and the ways in which people perform race. Their critiques might seem racist but they’re executed in really intelligent ways.
@Gay– That’s an excellent response. And even if you were to switch subject matter somehow and retain the comic value of the jokes…….the jokes still aren’t funny. Awful all around.
@Gay– That’s an excellent response. And even if you were to switch subject matter somehow and retain the comic value of the jokes…….the jokes still aren’t funny. Awful all around.
I don’t mind calling these art. And I like them, don’t have a problem admitting that. And I think art is context, doesn’t exist for it, naturally, c’mon.
My point about the point that is almost being made isn’t about the art though. And I guess it’s wrong for me to presume that there is a point implicit in posting these strips about the fucked up way we understand racism. But I am interested in that point, and wished for a reasoned perspective.
Now we’re just being epistemological though.
why does it have to be funny?
I don’t mind calling these art. And I like them, don’t have a problem admitting that. And I think art is context, doesn’t exist for it, naturally, c’mon.
My point about the point that is almost being made isn’t about the art though. And I guess it’s wrong for me to presume that there is a point implicit in posting these strips about the fucked up way we understand racism. But I am interested in that point, and wished for a reasoned perspective.
Now we’re just being epistemological though.
why does it have to be funny?
do we have to be ‘on the artist’s side’?
do we have to be ‘on the artist’s side’?
Things deconstruct themselves, though, right? That’s the whole thing about it, right? Like what it means to you is different than what it means to Laura?
Things deconstruct themselves, though, right? That’s the whole thing about it, right? Like what it means to you is different than what it means to Laura?
Well, at least you’re discussing the comic. But I disagree with this. I really think that vagina is hilarious. Maybe you just don’t know where to find jokes in a comic strip?
Well, at least you’re discussing the comic. But I disagree with this. I really think that vagina is hilarious. Maybe you just don’t know where to find jokes in a comic strip?
i guess they do, internally. or actively, for people who care more about intent and context than i do.
but i think it’s a problem to immediately apply metaphor and situationalism to everything that exists. the literal is underrated. in this case, i have no idea what the literal is, which is maybe what makes it interesting to me, in my taking it in.
it just seems redundant to me at this point to take anything with certain signifiers in it and call it racist, or even cruel. i don’t see the value in that.
i guess they do, internally. or actively, for people who care more about intent and context than i do.
but i think it’s a problem to immediately apply metaphor and situationalism to everything that exists. the literal is underrated. in this case, i have no idea what the literal is, which is maybe what makes it interesting to me, in my taking it in.
it just seems redundant to me at this point to take anything with certain signifiers in it and call it racist, or even cruel. i don’t see the value in that.
Maybe it doesn’t have to be funny but it does need to be smart. For *me* it has to do something interesting and I don’t think this comic strip does anything interesting. I may be alone in that, and that’s okay.
Maybe it doesn’t have to be funny but it does need to be smart. For *me* it has to do something interesting and I don’t think this comic strip does anything interesting. I may be alone in that, and that’s okay.
This comic strip is just trying to rip off Johnny Ryan’s “Angry Youth Comix.” It’s offensive but not funny. Johnny Ryan’s stuff is offensive AND funny.
But why does humor have to be intelligent to be valuable?
And isn’t it self-evident that Curly is the funniest Stooge?
This comic strip is just trying to rip off Johnny Ryan’s “Angry Youth Comix.” It’s offensive but not funny. Johnny Ryan’s stuff is offensive AND funny.
But why does humor have to be intelligent to be valuable?
And isn’t it self-evident that Curly is the funniest Stooge?
Agreed. Even the drawing style is Johnny Ryan wannabe.
Agreed. Even the drawing style is Johnny Ryan wannabe.
You make a good point. Humor can definitely be dumb and valuable. That doesn’t happen here.
You make a good point. Humor can definitely be dumb and valuable. That doesn’t happen here.
I think the issue isn’t whether or not these are/have to be “funny” or “intelligent” or “interesting,” but rather why some people would find humor in it while others would think of it as offensive.
The best comedy infringes just enough into our sense of comfort, right? And for some people that’s jokes about families that don’t get along (ha ha, sitcoms are great), or race (Carlos Mencia said wetback, ha ha ha) or sex politics (that Bruno is so gay, giggle). I love Tim & Eric Awesome Show and Zach Galifwhatever specifically because they make me uncomfortable.
These don’t make me feel awkward at all. But if they make you feel awkward, maybe it’s because somewhere on the inside you harbor the same racial prejudices.
STRAW MAN.
I think the issue isn’t whether or not these are/have to be “funny” or “intelligent” or “interesting,” but rather why some people would find humor in it while others would think of it as offensive.
The best comedy infringes just enough into our sense of comfort, right? And for some people that’s jokes about families that don’t get along (ha ha, sitcoms are great), or race (Carlos Mencia said wetback, ha ha ha) or sex politics (that Bruno is so gay, giggle). I love Tim & Eric Awesome Show and Zach Galifwhatever specifically because they make me uncomfortable.
These don’t make me feel awkward at all. But if they make you feel awkward, maybe it’s because somewhere on the inside you harbor the same racial prejudices.
STRAW MAN.
They don’t make me feel awkward, they are just bad.
@Butler– It doesn’t have to be funny, obviously, it just ought to have some value. You keep questioning the validity of the strip’s critics, but you haven’t put forth any reasons why we ought to take these things seriously.
They don’t make me feel awkward, they are just bad.
@Butler– It doesn’t have to be funny, obviously, it just ought to have some value. You keep questioning the validity of the strip’s critics, but you haven’t put forth any reasons why we ought to take these things seriously.
I agree with those who say this is stupid and offensive. Surprised to see anyone defending it, though maybe I shouldn’t be.
I agree with those who say this is stupid and offensive. Surprised to see anyone defending it, though maybe I shouldn’t be.
i’m not sure of the value. i’m not even meaning to defend this piece in particular as much as i am to defend against the immediate parceling of objects into things as offense. to me, the only offensive thing is being offended. i just think all objects, regardless of ‘value’ applied to them by those outside it, can have more function that just being labeled offensive and worthless. separate from the creator, there are other things that can be said. it’s not a matter of taking it seriously, as much as it is just not responding to it with the same level of social blank that you project into its presence. it’s an equal and opposite reaction.
i’m not sure of the value. i’m not even meaning to defend this piece in particular as much as i am to defend against the immediate parceling of objects into things as offense. to me, the only offensive thing is being offended. i just think all objects, regardless of ‘value’ applied to them by those outside it, can have more function that just being labeled offensive and worthless. separate from the creator, there are other things that can be said. it’s not a matter of taking it seriously, as much as it is just not responding to it with the same level of social blank that you project into its presence. it’s an equal and opposite reaction.
sometimes things with hazy value are more interesting than those with easily defined value, i think. i like to look at things i wouldn’t necessarily argue for in a forum, but that simply seem easily compartmentalizable. it has something to do with the quote diane williams was talking about with the brain liking mystery because the brain is mysterious. there is a second cover underneath that immediate reaction, whether it is nameable or not. that’s all. less political, more object, even in cases of the banal.
Why is my link not working
does this work?
sometimes things with hazy value are more interesting than those with easily defined value, i think. i like to look at things i wouldn’t necessarily argue for in a forum, but that simply seem easily compartmentalizable. it has something to do with the quote diane williams was talking about with the brain liking mystery because the brain is mysterious. there is a second cover underneath that immediate reaction, whether it is nameable or not. that’s all. less political, more object, even in cases of the banal.
Why is my link not working
does this work?
i don’t think anyone here is ‘defending’ the work. it is a discussion.
i don’t think anyone here is ‘defending’ the work. it is a discussion.
The problem with this work is not that it’s controversial. It’s that it isn’t work.
Let’s take a second here and spell out why this is funny. I can explain why this is offensive in a very clear and direct way. “Wigger” means “white nigger”, right? The entire “joke”–and there’s only one–is that it’s funny when a white person does things that are out of character for her, but would be typical for a “nigger.” Haha, silly race traitor… She probably fucks niggers too. Are we still having fun, guys? Someone would say something if we weren’t having fun anymore–right?
The problem with this work is not that it’s controversial. It’s that it isn’t work.
Let’s take a second here and spell out why this is funny. I can explain why this is offensive in a very clear and direct way. “Wigger” means “white nigger”, right? The entire “joke”–and there’s only one–is that it’s funny when a white person does things that are out of character for her, but would be typical for a “nigger.” Haha, silly race traitor… She probably fucks niggers too. Are we still having fun, guys? Someone would say something if we weren’t having fun anymore–right?
My contribution to the “discussion” is:
it’s really depressing to be confronted with crap like this on a site I otherwise like.
My contribution to the “discussion” is:
it’s really depressing to be confronted with crap like this on a site I otherwise like.
The problem with trying to openly spell out the joke when there is a joke is that there’s always a chance you’re doing it wrong.
I don’t think the joke is that she’s a “silly race traitor.” I think the joke is that, in her attempt to “act black”, she’s doing things no person, black white or whatever, would do. So then maybe it’s more like pointing out the “racism” that “wiggers” are inadvertently displaying when they attempt to “act black” and instead act out stereotypes.
Or something. I don’t know that there’s a lot of intentional social commentary going on here (in the comics), but who knows.
The problem with trying to openly spell out the joke when there is a joke is that there’s always a chance you’re doing it wrong.
I don’t think the joke is that she’s a “silly race traitor.” I think the joke is that, in her attempt to “act black”, she’s doing things no person, black white or whatever, would do. So then maybe it’s more like pointing out the “racism” that “wiggers” are inadvertently displaying when they attempt to “act black” and instead act out stereotypes.
Or something. I don’t know that there’s a lot of intentional social commentary going on here (in the comics), but who knows.
Speaking as an employee, I’m with you, Alan.
Speaking as an employee, I’m with you, Alan.
Putting aside the comics, can you define what you mean by context and literal (and maybe situationalism)? How can you read without context, if the act of reading is assigning meaning to a text based on the signifiers based on the signifiers around it (word order)? Or are you talking about the stuff that’s outside the text (meaning extratextual, social, political,etc)? I might be misreading you, but I’m not sure how you can read something literally without considering context when context is how we assign literal meaning.
If you’re talking about context as a way of designating extratextual elements (maybe there is a better word for this), I hear what you’re saying, but I really think that there’s value in considering things that are not literal but still helpful in assigning meaning – think of the first chapter of Ulysses (only because I’m reading it now) – I think there’s value in knowing that Buck Mulligan is parodying Mass, for example. Or the ways in which Ulysses is in communication with the Odyssey. I hope I’m not completely misreading you. Anyway, I’m just curious about this thread of the discussion. Carry on.
Putting aside the comics, can you define what you mean by context and literal (and maybe situationalism)? How can you read without context, if the act of reading is assigning meaning to a text based on the signifiers based on the signifiers around it (word order)? Or are you talking about the stuff that’s outside the text (meaning extratextual, social, political,etc)? I might be misreading you, but I’m not sure how you can read something literally without considering context when context is how we assign literal meaning.
If you’re talking about context as a way of designating extratextual elements (maybe there is a better word for this), I hear what you’re saying, but I really think that there’s value in considering things that are not literal but still helpful in assigning meaning – think of the first chapter of Ulysses (only because I’m reading it now) – I think there’s value in knowing that Buck Mulligan is parodying Mass, for example. Or the ways in which Ulysses is in communication with the Odyssey. I hope I’m not completely misreading you. Anyway, I’m just curious about this thread of the discussion. Carry on.
No.
No.
Maybe this is a duplicate (the website is saying I already posted this) but I would like to post the comment “Well said, Justin”
No offense, no defense. Only fence comma sitting on. Word.
No offense, no defense. Only fence comma sitting on. Word.
Questions of racism aside (although I’d note that if you removed “wigger” from the title you’d think this was a comic about a thug black woman) , what is there to defend in these comics? They aren’t very witty, nicely drawn, clever, shocking or anything else. I’ll just go read Johnny Ryan instead.
Questions of racism aside (although I’d note that if you removed “wigger” from the title you’d think this was a comic about a thug black woman) , what is there to defend in these comics? They aren’t very witty, nicely drawn, clever, shocking or anything else. I’ll just go read Johnny Ryan instead.
I just recommended this site to someone. Damn, I feel stupid after reading this comic. Nuff time spent on it already…….
I just recommended this site to someone. Damn, I feel stupid after reading this comic. Nuff time spent on it already…….
as stated above, i’m not interested in defending the comic so much as i am interested in opening the idea that even objects blank of supposed content can still be monikers for discussion, and therein a kind of value, beyond simply labeling it racism. but nobody wants to talk about that. people just want to be offended. and that is fine.
i’m not sure what fully led chelsea to post these comics. she might be smarter than me in that she will remain quiet to commentary.
as stated above, i’m not interested in defending the comic so much as i am interested in opening the idea that even objects blank of supposed content can still be monikers for discussion, and therein a kind of value, beyond simply labeling it racism. but nobody wants to talk about that. people just want to be offended. and that is fine.
i’m not sure what fully led chelsea to post these comics. she might be smarter than me in that she will remain quiet to commentary.
not what i said.
not what i said.
I think the boner on the discover card guy is funny.
Also, does anyone think this is funny (?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiu7nSycZ8w
I think it is hilarious. Is it racist?
I think the boner on the discover card guy is funny.
Also, does anyone think this is funny (?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiu7nSycZ8w
I think it is hilarious. Is it racist?
Let’s have an example. Is there any way we can look at a Klan rally as a cultural occurrence, yes, one where those participating are racist, ignorant, morally disgusting, etc., and without humor, inherent value, etc., but still interesting as an object of evaluation? You don’t have to be a Klansman to consider the implications of a Klan rally.
I would be hard pressed to believe there is anyone who thinks there isn’t a world of implication and ideology and a whole mess of other offshoots coming off a Klan rally as an entity, despite the fact that it itself is devoid of what most people (myself included) consider implicit value.
And though the comic here is not a Klan rally, and holds a much different kind of air, I think there are still effects, ones that can be valuable in repercussion of discussion or thinking, in seeing it, reading it, knowing it exists, regardless of whether or not it is inherently funny, of value, etc. Whether this forum is capable or interested in that, I don’t know.
However, if all you can do with objections or morally and socially objectionable nature is turn away from them, well, it seems of the same sort of behavior to me. I couldn’t give much of a fuck if this cartoon existed, but it does.
Let’s have an example. Is there any way we can look at a Klan rally as a cultural occurrence, yes, one where those participating are racist, ignorant, morally disgusting, etc., and without humor, inherent value, etc., but still interesting as an object of evaluation? You don’t have to be a Klansman to consider the implications of a Klan rally.
I would be hard pressed to believe there is anyone who thinks there isn’t a world of implication and ideology and a whole mess of other offshoots coming off a Klan rally as an entity, despite the fact that it itself is devoid of what most people (myself included) consider implicit value.
And though the comic here is not a Klan rally, and holds a much different kind of air, I think there are still effects, ones that can be valuable in repercussion of discussion or thinking, in seeing it, reading it, knowing it exists, regardless of whether or not it is inherently funny, of value, etc. Whether this forum is capable or interested in that, I don’t know.
However, if all you can do with objections or morally and socially objectionable nature is turn away from them, well, it seems of the same sort of behavior to me. I couldn’t give much of a fuck if this cartoon existed, but it does.
would it make you feel less stupid if you knew that this is 1 post out of 2,493 posts total?
would it make you feel less stupid if you knew that this is 1 post out of 2,493 posts total?
Blake, please read the post.
CM isn’t saying hey, what do you guys think of this (not that there’s much to think).
She’s saying check this out, I like this, here’s where you can find more.
You are indeed “defending” the post as an enlightened invitation to discussion that is sadly going over everyone’s head. I don’t know why you feel the need to do so if you do not in fact share it’s clearly stated point of view.
Blake, please read the post.
CM isn’t saying hey, what do you guys think of this (not that there’s much to think).
She’s saying check this out, I like this, here’s where you can find more.
You are indeed “defending” the post as an enlightened invitation to discussion that is sadly going over everyone’s head. I don’t know why you feel the need to do so if you do not in fact share it’s clearly stated point of view.
doesn’t seem like you got the point of the reply
doesn’t seem like you got the point of the reply
RC,
Just earlier today you were saying that this particular post wrecked HTML giant for you and that you wanted to staple your penis to your forehead and marry an aardvark and never read or write for this piece of shit ever again.
RC,
Just earlier today you were saying that this particular post wrecked HTML giant for you and that you wanted to staple your penis to your forehead and marry an aardvark and never read or write for this piece of shit ever again.
jh, i believe i actually said:
me: my least favorite post on giant ever
jh, i believe i actually said:
me: my least favorite post on giant ever
Blake, I’d say that it’s a real luxury to be able to look at something like a Klan rally or a Nazi symbol, or something similar as an object worthy of evaluation. Can it be done? Yes. But I believe you are imagining a world where people can consider such cultural occurrences in some sort of vacuum that is free from very difficult, complex and emotional histories. I feel like you’re suggesting that people can look beyond being offended/hurt/dismayed to critique this sort of thing. I don’t know how to say this in an eloquent way so I’ll just be real. As a black woman, I look at something like this and the first thing I think of is how sometimes my students and colleagues who should know better think they should speak in some sort of ebonics-laden manner even though I don’t interact with them in that way. I have that history and it’s not about right or wrong or good or bad. It just is what it is. I read this last night and I was so… disappointed that it could exist on a site where I participate but I didn’t want to be seen as hysterical or reactionary so I just shrugged it off. People started talking about it today and I thought, oh fuck it, I’ll share my thoughts.
I don’t know how to set my own complex history aside to evaluate this satirical comic strip. I can evaluate it and I might find it interesting if it were well-done but I will always interpret it through a lens. I think we bring our histories and experiences with us when we consider most anything and very few people (regardless of who they are) are capable of setting the personal aside to view such things objectively.
I don’t know how else to explain this.
Blake, I’d say that it’s a real luxury to be able to look at something like a Klan rally or a Nazi symbol, or something similar as an object worthy of evaluation. Can it be done? Yes. But I believe you are imagining a world where people can consider such cultural occurrences in some sort of vacuum that is free from very difficult, complex and emotional histories. I feel like you’re suggesting that people can look beyond being offended/hurt/dismayed to critique this sort of thing. I don’t know how to say this in an eloquent way so I’ll just be real. As a black woman, I look at something like this and the first thing I think of is how sometimes my students and colleagues who should know better think they should speak in some sort of ebonics-laden manner even though I don’t interact with them in that way. I have that history and it’s not about right or wrong or good or bad. It just is what it is. I read this last night and I was so… disappointed that it could exist on a site where I participate but I didn’t want to be seen as hysterical or reactionary so I just shrugged it off. People started talking about it today and I thought, oh fuck it, I’ll share my thoughts.
I don’t know how to set my own complex history aside to evaluate this satirical comic strip. I can evaluate it and I might find it interesting if it were well-done but I will always interpret it through a lens. I think we bring our histories and experiences with us when we consider most anything and very few people (regardless of who they are) are capable of setting the personal aside to view such things objectively.
I don’t know how else to explain this.
‘I think the joke is that, in her attempt to “act black”, she’s doing things no person, black white or whatever, would do. So then maybe it’s more like pointing out the “racism” that “wiggers” are inadvertently displaying when they attempt to “act black” and instead act out stereotypes.’
i think that’s actually a good reading of these.
but ultimately, i think these comics are more irreverent than anything else, like johnny ryan, as someone else said. there aren’t really that many stereotypes being acted out here, most of it is just lowbrow nonsense. there are plenty more stereotypes being upheld in jack chick comics (which are apparently taken seriously by millions of people), or like, in living color.
‘I think the joke is that, in her attempt to “act black”, she’s doing things no person, black white or whatever, would do. So then maybe it’s more like pointing out the “racism” that “wiggers” are inadvertently displaying when they attempt to “act black” and instead act out stereotypes.’
i think that’s actually a good reading of these.
but ultimately, i think these comics are more irreverent than anything else, like johnny ryan, as someone else said. there aren’t really that many stereotypes being acted out here, most of it is just lowbrow nonsense. there are plenty more stereotypes being upheld in jack chick comics (which are apparently taken seriously by millions of people), or like, in living color.
Lincoln, I’m glad you mentioned something weird that I also noticed: the woman doesn’t even look “white.” I mean, if this is supposed to be making fun of white people, why doesn’t she look white?this actually disturbed me more than maybe anything else about it. (That, and the use of the word “wigger,” which would’ve got your ass beat in my school back in the day.)
Lincoln, I’m glad you mentioned something weird that I also noticed: the woman doesn’t even look “white.” I mean, if this is supposed to be making fun of white people, why doesn’t she look white?this actually disturbed me more than maybe anything else about it. (That, and the use of the word “wigger,” which would’ve got your ass beat in my school back in the day.)
i understand. i’m just trying to turn the discussion somewhere profitable, for audience. i suppose that isn’t possible then. i understand.
i understand. i’m just trying to turn the discussion somewhere profitable, for audience. i suppose that isn’t possible then. i understand.
doesn’t seem like there was a point.
doesn’t seem like there was a point.
there was.
there was.
Blake, to a certain extent your point has been made in that the replies to this post have asked HTML Giant readers to explain their critical approaches and, perhaps, question them. That’s good. But, I’m curious to know how you would apply the same analysis that you’d apply to the Klan rally to the Wigger comics. Beyond the meta-discussion of the value (or lack thereof) of people taking offense to these comics, what thoughts do you have about the comics? How has the work affected you? I think your point would be more clear to me if you explained the effect of the work we’re discussing, rather than an analogical parallel.
Blake, to a certain extent your point has been made in that the replies to this post have asked HTML Giant readers to explain their critical approaches and, perhaps, question them. That’s good. But, I’m curious to know how you would apply the same analysis that you’d apply to the Klan rally to the Wigger comics. Beyond the meta-discussion of the value (or lack thereof) of people taking offense to these comics, what thoughts do you have about the comics? How has the work affected you? I think your point would be more clear to me if you explained the effect of the work we’re discussing, rather than an analogical parallel.
Yeah, the point was to feign intellectual superiority….the way this comic feigns white superiority….
Yeah, the point was to feign intellectual superiority….the way this comic feigns white superiority….
thank you john, for asking. i don’t know that it affected me that much really. i just kind of looked at it and moved on: i will say i read all of the comics, rather than simply skimming as i often do. the only thing that affected me directly was when people immediately jumped on labeling the motive the most obvious moniker they could think of, which bothers me. i don’t think this particular comic is necessarily that interesting, but it’s also not 100% dismissible just for its obviously over the top use of stereotypes. if you want to call it a shitty comic, or as others did, call it derivative, that’s okay with me. but i don’t like the idea of simply labeling it terroristic and moving on.
here’s a question: is an artist who makes art out of heavily race stereotypical imagery or ideas immediately a racist? or can the artist use it in another way?
thank you john, for asking. i don’t know that it affected me that much really. i just kind of looked at it and moved on: i will say i read all of the comics, rather than simply skimming as i often do. the only thing that affected me directly was when people immediately jumped on labeling the motive the most obvious moniker they could think of, which bothers me. i don’t think this particular comic is necessarily that interesting, but it’s also not 100% dismissible just for its obviously over the top use of stereotypes. if you want to call it a shitty comic, or as others did, call it derivative, that’s okay with me. but i don’t like the idea of simply labeling it terroristic and moving on.
here’s a question: is an artist who makes art out of heavily race stereotypical imagery or ideas immediately a racist? or can the artist use it in another way?
Blake, any “profitable” place can only be arrived at by people like Roxane who actually have a sense of what function is served by these comics and other similar products. Their main worth is as bombs thrown by the individually malicious into the crowds of the long-suffering. If you are neither a bomb-thrower nor a bomb-eater it’s more likely you won’t know what you’re looking at, what a bomb is, etc. You can then theorize to the heart’s content of someone about the dark shadow that momentarily hangs in the sky before dropping onto the town. This condescension of distance, often falsely termed intellectual, provides profit approaching zero.
Blake, any “profitable” place can only be arrived at by people like Roxane who actually have a sense of what function is served by these comics and other similar products. Their main worth is as bombs thrown by the individually malicious into the crowds of the long-suffering. If you are neither a bomb-thrower nor a bomb-eater it’s more likely you won’t know what you’re looking at, what a bomb is, etc. You can then theorize to the heart’s content of someone about the dark shadow that momentarily hangs in the sky before dropping onto the town. This condescension of distance, often falsely termed intellectual, provides profit approaching zero.
right, i could have no conceivable idea. that makes sense.
right, i could have no conceivable idea. that makes sense.
This makes me physically ill, and I am very sad that it has been promoted–yes, promoted, with the words “you should get this” and info on how to buy it ie support the person who made it–on this site. Some things are beyond the pale. It doesn’t matter if it’s funny (isn’t) or smart (isn’t), even if it were, it would still be reprehensible, and there’s no reason to couch that in discussions of context or occurrences or objects or value or whatever. Some things are not worth the discussion they incite, and I would take it off the site if I could.
This makes me physically ill, and I am very sad that it has been promoted–yes, promoted, with the words “you should get this” and info on how to buy it ie support the person who made it–on this site. Some things are beyond the pale. It doesn’t matter if it’s funny (isn’t) or smart (isn’t), even if it were, it would still be reprehensible, and there’s no reason to couch that in discussions of context or occurrences or objects or value or whatever. Some things are not worth the discussion they incite, and I would take it off the site if I could.
Of course you can make art that relies on stereotypical imagery without being racist. The Mikado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mikado) by Gilbert and Sullivan wields racial signifiers intelligently—toward the end of useful commentary/social criticism. (In The Mikado’s case, the play lampoons English culture by satirically misapprehending Japanese culture. Which is exactly the movement that these awful comics have been suggest to make–i.e. using the “wigger’s” misapprehension of stereotypically black culture to comment on a larger misapprehension of what constitutes black culture.
Of course you can make art that relies on stereotypical imagery without being racist. The Mikado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mikado) by Gilbert and Sullivan wields racial signifiers intelligently—toward the end of useful commentary/social criticism. (In The Mikado’s case, the play lampoons English culture by satirically misapprehending Japanese culture. Which is exactly the movement that these awful comics have been suggest to make–i.e. using the “wigger’s” misapprehension of stereotypically black culture to comment on a larger misapprehension of what constitutes black culture.
You can bring deeper significance to a reading of “Wigger Chick”—but deeper significance is not inherent in the text, and there are much better examples to use.
You can bring deeper significance to a reading of “Wigger Chick”—but deeper significance is not inherent in the text, and there are much better examples to use.
I second Amy’s vote for taking this down. It’s already the highest google search result for this guy’s name and for his comic. If you search for this guy what you find is this thread.
I second Amy’s vote for taking this down. It’s already the highest google search result for this guy’s name and for his comic. If you search for this guy what you find is this thread.
well, i won’t presume to know what chelsea meant by that. but this is my long-winded idea of why i think there was a point there:
everyone is a racist, because race is a thing that exists in general, not just in a particular context. some people, unfortunately, choose to let this inform their opinion of other people; and yeah, that sucks; they’re ignorant. yes, there is a long, sorted history to deal with; and we shouldn’t ignore that, because it’s way important. our society (by which i mean the u.s., because we’re the only ones who really deal with this on a massive scale) has a long way to go, fo sho.
hopefully one day, in the future maybe, people will decide not to allow their awareness of ethnicity, gender, class, sexuality, or any other thing that makes one an ‘other,’ to affect their dealings with ‘others’ on a day to day basis (which is, i think, where it really counts). and until then, you can call these people racists (or you can call their creation racist) if you want, but the word will always fail to convey that what is really meant is that the person (or the creation) is ignorant; rather, it’s suggesting that they are aware of race, which is true of everyone – everyone is aware of race. unfortunately, people (and their creations) are ignorant of many things because they are not experienced in the game of life. they are afraid and small and set in their ways. all of this is sucky, i agree. (but their creations are not them, which is not to say they don’t matter; but well, they’re not.)
anyway, to ignore one’s own, quite inherent, racism (in that one does, in fact, recognize when someone has slightly more or less pigment in their skin) would be equally ignorant, because we all participate in that system. and certainly, to pull the race card because you feel someone (or their creation) has transgressed an unwritten rule of appropriateness, is definitely participating in that system – one way or another. not that i think it’s necessarily a bad thing to do, given the situation – you have every right to do it. and you have every right to think i’m full of shit. that’s okay too.
well, i won’t presume to know what chelsea meant by that. but this is my long-winded idea of why i think there was a point there:
everyone is a racist, because race is a thing that exists in general, not just in a particular context. some people, unfortunately, choose to let this inform their opinion of other people; and yeah, that sucks; they’re ignorant. yes, there is a long, sorted history to deal with; and we shouldn’t ignore that, because it’s way important. our society (by which i mean the u.s., because we’re the only ones who really deal with this on a massive scale) has a long way to go, fo sho.
hopefully one day, in the future maybe, people will decide not to allow their awareness of ethnicity, gender, class, sexuality, or any other thing that makes one an ‘other,’ to affect their dealings with ‘others’ on a day to day basis (which is, i think, where it really counts). and until then, you can call these people racists (or you can call their creation racist) if you want, but the word will always fail to convey that what is really meant is that the person (or the creation) is ignorant; rather, it’s suggesting that they are aware of race, which is true of everyone – everyone is aware of race. unfortunately, people (and their creations) are ignorant of many things because they are not experienced in the game of life. they are afraid and small and set in their ways. all of this is sucky, i agree. (but their creations are not them, which is not to say they don’t matter; but well, they’re not.)
anyway, to ignore one’s own, quite inherent, racism (in that one does, in fact, recognize when someone has slightly more or less pigment in their skin) would be equally ignorant, because we all participate in that system. and certainly, to pull the race card because you feel someone (or their creation) has transgressed an unwritten rule of appropriateness, is definitely participating in that system – one way or another. not that i think it’s necessarily a bad thing to do, given the situation – you have every right to do it. and you have every right to think i’m full of shit. that’s okay too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt
She not only doesn’t look white, but nothing she does is “wiggerish” as opposed to just some black thug stereotype… with the exception of the one where she likes Kid Rock I guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt
She not only doesn’t look white, but nothing she does is “wiggerish” as opposed to just some black thug stereotype… with the exception of the one where she likes Kid Rock I guess.
this just doesn’t make much sense to me. i am entirely aligned with the picking apart of whatever art includes reprehensible elements, but this cartoon is not an art-object. there is nothing here we can subject to critique or worth critiquing. if we’re going to critique how politics/ethics and art encounter each other, let’s at least have something worthwhile at hand. barry hannah, celine? anything but this.
this just doesn’t make much sense to me. i am entirely aligned with the picking apart of whatever art includes reprehensible elements, but this cartoon is not an art-object. there is nothing here we can subject to critique or worth critiquing. if we’re going to critique how politics/ethics and art encounter each other, let’s at least have something worthwhile at hand. barry hannah, celine? anything but this.
This has nothing to do with white guilt. Please give me a goddamned break. I don’t think the post should be taken down but I really cannot stand when people trot out that white guilt nonsense. You can’t intellectualize this sort of nonsense and it’s so dismissive and insulting to imply that having a problem with this comic strip is about white guilt. I’m sorry Reynard, but that’s… ridiculous.
Christian— I agree. You’re maybe referring to me when you mention those who earlier talked about the strips in terms of misapprehension, but I didn’t really mean it as a defense of the strips. Like you say, you can read into the strips, but I think it’s highly probably that the author really just wanted cheap laughs with over the top gags.
This has nothing to do with white guilt. Please give me a goddamned break. I don’t think the post should be taken down but I really cannot stand when people trot out that white guilt nonsense. You can’t intellectualize this sort of nonsense and it’s so dismissive and insulting to imply that having a problem with this comic strip is about white guilt. I’m sorry Reynard, but that’s… ridiculous.
Christian— I agree. You’re maybe referring to me when you mention those who earlier talked about the strips in terms of misapprehension, but I didn’t really mean it as a defense of the strips. Like you say, you can read into the strips, but I think it’s highly probably that the author really just wanted cheap laughs with over the top gags.
Barry Hannah is a really great example. I just read Airships and was at times uncomfortable but there was a lot of interesting stuff worth critiquing. The book is brilliant.
Barry Hannah is a really great example. I just read Airships and was at times uncomfortable but there was a lot of interesting stuff worth critiquing. The book is brilliant.
Blake, I say this out of love. Your whole “position” on this is bullshit. You’re taking that weird anti-PC stance that positions itself in opposition to a perceived PC censorship that doesn’t actually exist. You’re standing at the exact point where post-modern relativism stops being inclusive, and becomes a nihilistic void. By being willing to find the potential value in anything, you put yourself in the position of bestowing validity and relevance onto everything, which is the same as valuing nothing. Putting the question of racism aside–even though it’s the last thing we ought to be doing–we are still left with my original critique, which is that this is unworthy of our consideration at all. We shouldn’t be reading it, and we shouldn’t be promoting it, and the reason is much simpler than race relations– the reason is suck. This sucks. Everything about it sucks. Even if it weren’t disgusting, it would still be bad.
Chelsea- I don’t know you, and from what I do know, I like you, but you were wrong to post this stuff and especially wrong to promote it. I know it’s not very cool to make unambiguous ethical judgments, but I’ve made mine. I don’t think it’s in Blake’s editorial nature to honor my, Amy’s, and others’ request to remove this post, so I am asking you to think about taking it down of your own volition. That’s all.
Blake, I say this out of love. Your whole “position” on this is bullshit. You’re taking that weird anti-PC stance that positions itself in opposition to a perceived PC censorship that doesn’t actually exist. You’re standing at the exact point where post-modern relativism stops being inclusive, and becomes a nihilistic void. By being willing to find the potential value in anything, you put yourself in the position of bestowing validity and relevance onto everything, which is the same as valuing nothing. Putting the question of racism aside–even though it’s the last thing we ought to be doing–we are still left with my original critique, which is that this is unworthy of our consideration at all. We shouldn’t be reading it, and we shouldn’t be promoting it, and the reason is much simpler than race relations– the reason is suck. This sucks. Everything about it sucks. Even if it weren’t disgusting, it would still be bad.
Chelsea- I don’t know you, and from what I do know, I like you, but you were wrong to post this stuff and especially wrong to promote it. I know it’s not very cool to make unambiguous ethical judgments, but I’ve made mine. I don’t think it’s in Blake’s editorial nature to honor my, Amy’s, and others’ request to remove this post, so I am asking you to think about taking it down of your own volition. That’s all.
Good question Blake. I use a lot of racial images in my writing. I attempt to flip stereotypes at times. The intent may not always be clear to the reader, I suppose. One piece is so laden with such images that I’m concerned when it goes public (self-promo: soon on bosphorus art project quarterly). Hateful racial imagery was and is a reality so an artist can use such imagery in a way that is non-racist and makes a comment on history or attitudes or anything under the sun really. Anything goes in art if it works. Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Richard Wright (what was Bigger but a flipped Sterotype?), Paul Mooney, Dave Chapelle, The Office, South Park, Percival Everett, Adam Mansbach…..they’ve all used these types of images in successful thought-provoking ways. I don’t think anyone here argued that the use of racial/racist imagery is verboten. In “Wigger Chick” that imagery is not used in an intelligent or skillful or funny manner. It seems to fit comfortably into the tradition that produced minstrel shows and the Little Black Sambo children’s book.
There could be many things this artist was attempting to say: Perhaps it was an attempt to mock the “wigger’s” view of blackness. Perhaps it was an attempt to create a zany character whose foibles are so off the wall that they are funny. Dinkel’s lack of craft as a humorist obscures any and all of that. Really, I see “Wigger Chick” as a stand in for the black working class and its perceived influence on white society. This comic is easily dismissible because it is a grotesque flattening of what humanity really is. I’m not interested in Dinkel’s intent or his race. The art is bad. The jokes are not funny in any context. Even removing race, the jokes are still on a junior high level (ha ha, a woman is being eaten out by a cat). It’s a shitty piece of work that is pretty easy for intelligent people to dismiss outright.
Good question Blake. I use a lot of racial images in my writing. I attempt to flip stereotypes at times. The intent may not always be clear to the reader, I suppose. One piece is so laden with such images that I’m concerned when it goes public (self-promo: soon on bosphorus art project quarterly). Hateful racial imagery was and is a reality so an artist can use such imagery in a way that is non-racist and makes a comment on history or attitudes or anything under the sun really. Anything goes in art if it works. Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Richard Wright (what was Bigger but a flipped Sterotype?), Paul Mooney, Dave Chapelle, The Office, South Park, Percival Everett, Adam Mansbach…..they’ve all used these types of images in successful thought-provoking ways. I don’t think anyone here argued that the use of racial/racist imagery is verboten. In “Wigger Chick” that imagery is not used in an intelligent or skillful or funny manner. It seems to fit comfortably into the tradition that produced minstrel shows and the Little Black Sambo children’s book.
There could be many things this artist was attempting to say: Perhaps it was an attempt to mock the “wigger’s” view of blackness. Perhaps it was an attempt to create a zany character whose foibles are so off the wall that they are funny. Dinkel’s lack of craft as a humorist obscures any and all of that. Really, I see “Wigger Chick” as a stand in for the black working class and its perceived influence on white society. This comic is easily dismissible because it is a grotesque flattening of what humanity really is. I’m not interested in Dinkel’s intent or his race. The art is bad. The jokes are not funny in any context. Even removing race, the jokes are still on a junior high level (ha ha, a woman is being eaten out by a cat). It’s a shitty piece of work that is pretty easy for intelligent people to dismiss outright.
this conversation, which i agree with a lot of, is already way better than it was in simply labeling the cartoons racist.
isn’t it? there are so many substantive critical/aesthetic questions we could field re: that beautiful book. i’m doing a research project on hannah and some other lishy folks in january, very excited to train a critical eye on him and the rest.
this conversation, which i agree with a lot of, is already way better than it was in simply labeling the cartoons racist.
isn’t it? there are so many substantive critical/aesthetic questions we could field re: that beautiful book. i’m doing a research project on hannah and some other lishy folks in january, very excited to train a critical eye on him and the rest.
maybe you’re right, roxane – it’s a silly term and i shouldn’t have done that, i was just disgusted to see it so apparent – but i also don’t think it’s a thing that doesn’t exist, even if it exists for a good reason. and for whatever reason, when i hear white people up in arms about something they find insulting to people who aren’t them, it’s all i can think about. especially when it deals with something this absurd in its most basic nature.
but to think you can’t intellectualize something because it’s complicated and sensitive is just not true.
maybe you’re right, roxane – it’s a silly term and i shouldn’t have done that, i was just disgusted to see it so apparent – but i also don’t think it’s a thing that doesn’t exist, even if it exists for a good reason. and for whatever reason, when i hear white people up in arms about something they find insulting to people who aren’t them, it’s all i can think about. especially when it deals with something this absurd in its most basic nature.
but to think you can’t intellectualize something because it’s complicated and sensitive is just not true.
Chelsea is welcome to take it down if she feels inclined. You’re right, it is not of my nature to remove things. I also am not sure how to respond to your other critiques. I don’t think I agree with you that it has no point of consideration. Even the most abhorrent creations have context for discussion. I stand by that. I am sorry to people who are offended by what they see here:I can see why, and understand. As for the reason for it being here, I’ve done by best to think about things outside the object itself above, and whether or not it is inclusive, or a void, this thread is what it is.
Reynard, I don’t think you can’t intellectualize something that is complicated and sensitive. This comic is neither complicated nor sensitive. And the notion that white people, or any people, can’t get up in arms about shit that is fucking fucked up without being labeled as expressing guilt is really something that gets under my skin. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
White guilt may indeed exist, but the mere fact that someone is offended by racism not directed at their own ethnic group does not make it white guilt. I mean, give me a break. If i’m offended at slavery, its because of white guilt?
Chelsea is welcome to take it down if she feels inclined. You’re right, it is not of my nature to remove things. I also am not sure how to respond to your other critiques. I don’t think I agree with you that it has no point of consideration. Even the most abhorrent creations have context for discussion. I stand by that. I am sorry to people who are offended by what they see here:I can see why, and understand. As for the reason for it being here, I’ve done by best to think about things outside the object itself above, and whether or not it is inclusive, or a void, this thread is what it is.
Reynard, I don’t think you can’t intellectualize something that is complicated and sensitive. This comic is neither complicated nor sensitive. And the notion that white people, or any people, can’t get up in arms about shit that is fucking fucked up without being labeled as expressing guilt is really something that gets under my skin. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
White guilt may indeed exist, but the mere fact that someone is offended by racism not directed at their own ethnic group does not make it white guilt. I mean, give me a break. If i’m offended at slavery, its because of white guilt?
Alec, definitely. I am still processing the book before I talk about it. I’m going to write something here but I want it to be good. I’ve come to Hannah much later than many. I only learned of Airships a few months ago and when I started reading it, I could not believe the complexity of the stories and I am really fascinated by how he handles race. There’s no doubt that the book is, in some ways, a product of its time but there is a lot to critique and I’ve been having a great time picking apart the book.
Alec, definitely. I am still processing the book before I talk about it. I’m going to write something here but I want it to be good. I’ve come to Hannah much later than many. I only learned of Airships a few months ago and when I started reading it, I could not believe the complexity of the stories and I am really fascinated by how he handles race. There’s no doubt that the book is, in some ways, a product of its time but there is a lot to critique and I’ve been having a great time picking apart the book.
roxane, i didn’t meant to suggest that this comic is complicated or sensitive – i agree, it’s definitely not – but elements of this conversation certainly are.
lincoln, not only black people were slaves, so no – that would be ridiculous.
the stories are so dense. people concentrate on hannah’s style, but he’s really a master storyteller, and his themes are so big. not just race, but femininity/masculinity have such an odd place in airships. for instance, the story where the wife wants to sleep, but isn’t allowed to by her husband and children. that story is fascinating and almost holy to me. have you read ray yet?
roxane, i didn’t meant to suggest that this comic is complicated or sensitive – i agree, it’s definitely not – but elements of this conversation certainly are.
lincoln, not only black people were slaves, so no – that would be ridiculous.
the stories are so dense. people concentrate on hannah’s style, but he’s really a master storyteller, and his themes are so big. not just race, but femininity/masculinity have such an odd place in airships. for instance, the story where the wife wants to sleep, but isn’t allowed to by her husband and children. that story is fascinating and almost holy to me. have you read ray yet?
man come on, do I really have to spell that out?
man come on, do I really have to spell that out?
This to me is an example of something that would have been more worth posting. It’s a work of parody by a black artist that uses a lot of alarming imagery, meant to convey the artist’s own sense of outrage about cultural iconography that I’m now forced to confront, having had the privilege to feel unparticular. But does the rightness of the means remain ambiguous, etc.
This to me is an example of something that would have been more worth posting. It’s a work of parody by a black artist that uses a lot of alarming imagery, meant to convey the artist’s own sense of outrage about cultural iconography that I’m now forced to confront, having had the privilege to feel unparticular. But does the rightness of the means remain ambiguous, etc.
when barry read at bennington while i was there many people walked out and would not tolerate him on campus because they felt his work was racist. he seemed to love it.
what does that mean
when barry read at bennington while i was there many people walked out and would not tolerate him on campus because they felt his work was racist. he seemed to love it.
what does that mean
well no, you don’t – but you didn’t have to oversimplify what i was saying either. not to mention i found it an interesting oversimplification, because it implies a stereotype that isn’t true (just to spell that out).
well no, you don’t – but you didn’t have to oversimplify what i was saying either. not to mention i found it an interesting oversimplification, because it implies a stereotype that isn’t true (just to spell that out).
Funny, reynard. You are changing the meaning of words for your own purposes. Being aware of race is not being racist. Everyone is aware of race and calling oneself colorblind is a lie. “Racist” has a particular meaning: according to dictionary.com: “1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.”
When you talk about racism to people whose lives aren’t affected by it too much, they get defensive. There is a good chance that my health is being affected by hatred and that I will die early because of racism. Studies have proven this. Saying something someone says or does is racist doesn’t automatically mean, “you are a member of the KKK.” There is no reason to change the meaning of the word so that we are all in the same boat. The word is useful, has a particular meaning and sometimes it is the only word that fits.
This comic is racist. Hateful. Not worthy of discussion.
Check out this commentary, it says it better than I can: How to Tell Someone they Sound Racist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
Funny, reynard. You are changing the meaning of words for your own purposes. Being aware of race is not being racist. Everyone is aware of race and calling oneself colorblind is a lie. “Racist” has a particular meaning: according to dictionary.com: “1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.”
When you talk about racism to people whose lives aren’t affected by it too much, they get defensive. There is a good chance that my health is being affected by hatred and that I will die early because of racism. Studies have proven this. Saying something someone says or does is racist doesn’t automatically mean, “you are a member of the KKK.” There is no reason to change the meaning of the word so that we are all in the same boat. The word is useful, has a particular meaning and sometimes it is the only word that fits.
This comic is racist. Hateful. Not worthy of discussion.
Check out this commentary, it says it better than I can: How to Tell Someone they Sound Racist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
The racist reality of slavery in America, for most of its history, is not what I’d call a “stereotype.”
Not that I even specified slavery as black in my post…
The racist reality of slavery in America, for most of its history, is not what I’d call a “stereotype.”
Not that I even specified slavery as black in my post…
Alec, I’m currently obsessed with Coming Close to Donna. That is one of the most perfect short stories I have ever read. I absolutely agree about his really odd way of dealing with femininity/masculinity and I think it may be underdiscussed because so many people are focused on all the race stuff. I have not read Ray yet but I do want (when I can find the time) to read all of his work which is all, conveniently available on the Kindle.
Alec, I’m currently obsessed with Coming Close to Donna. That is one of the most perfect short stories I have ever read. I absolutely agree about his really odd way of dealing with femininity/masculinity and I think it may be underdiscussed because so many people are focused on all the race stuff. I have not read Ray yet but I do want (when I can find the time) to read all of his work which is all, conveniently available on the Kindle.
Airships is the best ev er.
Airships is the best ev er.
It’s funny how Chelsea Martin has remained quiet. Her only response was a meaningless comment up above. Pretty cowardly. It’s like punching someone in the back of the head, blaming it on the guy next to you and ducking out to watch the ensuing brawl from afar.
It’s funny how Chelsea Martin has remained quiet. Her only response was a meaningless comment up above. Pretty cowardly. It’s like punching someone in the back of the head, blaming it on the guy next to you and ducking out to watch the ensuing brawl from afar.
oh man, donna is brilliant. i’d like to read that story alongside hempel’s “in the cemetery where al jolson is buried”; graveyards are such weird settings. ray is just a gem. i think it isn’t as nuanced as far as masculinity/femininity goes, but absolutely brilliant.
oh man, donna is brilliant. i’d like to read that story alongside hempel’s “in the cemetery where al jolson is buried”; graveyards are such weird settings. ray is just a gem. i think it isn’t as nuanced as far as masculinity/femininity goes, but absolutely brilliant.
I just bought Ray so I will hopefully get to it sooner than later. As for Donna, it is one of those stories I like to read a few times a week just to remind myself of where I would like to get with my own writing.
Then, if the discussion is what’s important, pick better subject matter. This is an awful jump-off; plenty of better examples have been enumerated in these comments. Aside from morality, show some aesthetic selectivity. Yeah, you can discuss any old trash. You could literally point to a bag of Dorito’s on a shelf and use it as a jump off for a discussion of anything. And this discussion may be worthwhile–but the discussion is exactly what’s worthwhile–and it can be had without promoting garbage like this.
I just bought Ray so I will hopefully get to it sooner than later. As for Donna, it is one of those stories I like to read a few times a week just to remind myself of where I would like to get with my own writing.
Then, if the discussion is what’s important, pick better subject matter. This is an awful jump-off; plenty of better examples have been enumerated in these comments. Aside from morality, show some aesthetic selectivity. Yeah, you can discuss any old trash. You could literally point to a bag of Dorito’s on a shelf and use it as a jump off for a discussion of anything. And this discussion may be worthwhile–but the discussion is exactly what’s worthwhile–and it can be had without promoting garbage like this.
You know, the really interesting thing is that the masculinity and femininity in Airships are hypermasculinities and hyperfemininities. Everything is so big.
You know, the really interesting thing is that the masculinity and femininity in Airships are hypermasculinities and hyperfemininities. Everything is so big.
Nathan: Carlos Mencia is funny?
Nathan: Carlos Mencia is funny?
Justin, I was trying to find a way to articulate thoughts on this, but you did it better than I could have. The whole notion of being post-race, or of talking about racism being racist or being the problem rather than the solution is just so upsetting to me. It just seems like such a silencing force, like if you are ever offended by anything, it means you have no sense of humor, or you need to “get over” something, be able to take a joke, etc. We don’t live in a post-racial society, and we certainly won’t ever get to anything resembling that point if discussions of racism are always silenced in such a way. “Racist,” “sexist,” etc. can of course (like pretty much anything else) sometimes be knee-jerk, unfounded responses, but to assume that those accusations automatically fall into that category strikes me as dangerously dismissive.
As for the actual comics, I think part of the problem is that (in my estimation), they aren’t trying to be serious works of art, they’re trying to be simple humor. If that’s the goal of the work, and it fails because the humor is weak and offensive, why is it not legitimate to critique it from that perspective? Really, what else is there to discuss about it? They are jokes, and if they are bad racist ones, what else is there to discuss? If someone walks into a room and tells a racist joke out loud, is there some other way that joke is supposed to be digested and discussed than as a joke? Because I’m just not seeing these comics differently from that.
Justin, I was trying to find a way to articulate thoughts on this, but you did it better than I could have. The whole notion of being post-race, or of talking about racism being racist or being the problem rather than the solution is just so upsetting to me. It just seems like such a silencing force, like if you are ever offended by anything, it means you have no sense of humor, or you need to “get over” something, be able to take a joke, etc. We don’t live in a post-racial society, and we certainly won’t ever get to anything resembling that point if discussions of racism are always silenced in such a way. “Racist,” “sexist,” etc. can of course (like pretty much anything else) sometimes be knee-jerk, unfounded responses, but to assume that those accusations automatically fall into that category strikes me as dangerously dismissive.
As for the actual comics, I think part of the problem is that (in my estimation), they aren’t trying to be serious works of art, they’re trying to be simple humor. If that’s the goal of the work, and it fails because the humor is weak and offensive, why is it not legitimate to critique it from that perspective? Really, what else is there to discuss about it? They are jokes, and if they are bad racist ones, what else is there to discuss? If someone walks into a room and tells a racist joke out loud, is there some other way that joke is supposed to be digested and discussed than as a joke? Because I’m just not seeing these comics differently from that.
right. i do the same thing with ray that you do with donna (though i obviously don’t reread it in its entirety a few times a week). as much as people like to name-drop hannah, i really wish he got a more extensive critical treatment.
right. i do the same thing with ray that you do with donna (though i obviously don’t reread it in its entirety a few times a week). as much as people like to name-drop hannah, i really wish he got a more extensive critical treatment.
i don’t think i’m changing the meaning of the word. and frankly, i don’t care what dictionary.com says. dictionaries are written by people, not god. definitions are constantly changing because language is arbitrary. and i was speaking very loosely. i feel the same way about the word ‘atheist’ but that’s neither here nor there. what i said was actually the whole point of a very good class i took called ‘women and minorities in film.’ but i’m not going to qualify my statements with theory because i’m not an academic.
saying this comic is not worthy of discussion is like saying
i don’t think i’m changing the meaning of the word. and frankly, i don’t care what dictionary.com says. dictionaries are written by people, not god. definitions are constantly changing because language is arbitrary. and i was speaking very loosely. i feel the same way about the word ‘atheist’ but that’s neither here nor there. what i said was actually the whole point of a very good class i took called ‘women and minorities in film.’ but i’m not going to qualify my statements with theory because i’m not an academic.
saying this comic is not worthy of discussion is like saying
well, it’s like saying nothing because people should discuss whatever they want. sorry you’re offended and physically afflicted by ideas. hope you don’t die. i like talking about shit because i think ideas matter.
well, it’s like saying nothing because people should discuss whatever they want. sorry you’re offended and physically afflicted by ideas. hope you don’t die. i like talking about shit because i think ideas matter.
“sorry you’re offended and physically afflicted by ideas. hope you don’t die.”
Yes, the above is a reasonable response to my comments because I said that this specific conversation and the ideas contained in it–and ideas for that matter–are affecting my health. Any intelligent person could read my comments and pick that out with out twisting my words. That is exactly what I said. Good job Reynard. You are soooooo smart.
“sorry you’re offended and physically afflicted by ideas. hope you don’t die.”
Yes, the above is a reasonable response to my comments because I said that this specific conversation and the ideas contained in it–and ideas for that matter–are affecting my health. Any intelligent person could read my comments and pick that out with out twisting my words. That is exactly what I said. Good job Reynard. You are soooooo smart.
For clarification because I reread my post, I didn’t mean that it’s inherently a problem that they’re not trying to be serious works of art, or that everything should try to be a serious work of art, but rather that it creates a problem with regard to finding some deeper, more meaningful way to critique these.
For clarification because I reread my post, I didn’t mean that it’s inherently a problem that they’re not trying to be serious works of art, or that everything should try to be a serious work of art, but rather that it creates a problem with regard to finding some deeper, more meaningful way to critique these.
well, this is a Blog, with more than 2000+ posts. and yet people are still talking about this one. go figure.
well, this is a Blog, with more than 2000+ posts. and yet people are still talking about this one. go figure.
Some people think so. Not that I would ever associate with people of that opinion (except my dad).
Reynard, do you really think it’s impossible for a white person to feel legitimately indignant about racist words/acts/whatever not aimed at them, or is it always automatically white guilt in your eyes? Not intended as snarky, genuine question.
Some people think so. Not that I would ever associate with people of that opinion (except my dad).
Reynard, do you really think it’s impossible for a white person to feel legitimately indignant about racist words/acts/whatever not aimed at them, or is it always automatically white guilt in your eyes? Not intended as snarky, genuine question.
Yes, because it’s what I said.
Yes, because it’s what I said.
no, angi, i certainly don’t think it’s impossible for white people to feel indignant about racism. but i feel like that speaks for itself; or i should say, enough people have spoken for that idea. it seems obvious to me that if you witness someone being insensitive you should be pissed. for instance, i have relatives who’ve said insensitive things and i’ve told them how i felt about it; moreover, that their prejudice came from ignorance. that sort of thing is what we need, desperately.
it’s the small scale that really matters in my opinion. it’s the day-to-day relationships people have. not like, some comics on a blog and a bunch of people talking vaguely about how offensive it is (or isn’t).
it would be ridiculous to suggest that racism (in the sense that it is being used to be hurtful) does not exist today, and that nothing should be done about it, of course something should be done about it. there is certainly nothing wrong in thinking that. like i said, i shouldn’t have used the term. seems like there is not (or i do not possess) sophisticated enough language to convey that idea. it’s just the thing i thought of first.
because to suggest that something should be removed and not discussed, even for whatever small value it might have, suggesting that a discourse is somehow inherently bad or like, hateful, seems very obtuse to me. the fact that people are afraid to have a conversation (because this isn’t much of one at all) is not a good thing, and is most-often associated with that term.
no, angi, i certainly don’t think it’s impossible for white people to feel indignant about racism. but i feel like that speaks for itself; or i should say, enough people have spoken for that idea. it seems obvious to me that if you witness someone being insensitive you should be pissed. for instance, i have relatives who’ve said insensitive things and i’ve told them how i felt about it; moreover, that their prejudice came from ignorance. that sort of thing is what we need, desperately.
it’s the small scale that really matters in my opinion. it’s the day-to-day relationships people have. not like, some comics on a blog and a bunch of people talking vaguely about how offensive it is (or isn’t).
it would be ridiculous to suggest that racism (in the sense that it is being used to be hurtful) does not exist today, and that nothing should be done about it, of course something should be done about it. there is certainly nothing wrong in thinking that. like i said, i shouldn’t have used the term. seems like there is not (or i do not possess) sophisticated enough language to convey that idea. it’s just the thing i thought of first.
because to suggest that something should be removed and not discussed, even for whatever small value it might have, suggesting that a discourse is somehow inherently bad or like, hateful, seems very obtuse to me. the fact that people are afraid to have a conversation (because this isn’t much of one at all) is not a good thing, and is most-often associated with that term.
thx. i really do mean things out of love. hope that was vague and dismissive enough.
thx. i really do mean things out of love. hope that was vague and dismissive enough.
Thanks for the response, Reynard. Personally, I’m not calling for the comics to be taken down, I think open dialogue is fantastic. But I do think that automatic dismissals of a reaction of white guilt, or the notion that any accusations of racism come from some kind of unreasonable, chip-on-the-shoulder place, do just as much to (attempt to) silence the discussion as a call for the removal of a post like this. Personally, I thought the comics were racist and dumb and not funny, but didn’t feel actually indignant about the whole thing until reading some of the comments which attempted to dismiss or make illegitimate any claims of racism. To me, that discussion–why race is a valid thing to talk about–is far more necessary than any discussion of the comics themselves.
As for the call for the removal of the post, though, I’m guessing part of the reason for that was the tone of the original post, the “hey, you should buy this!” intent behind it. If it had been posted with a “how do we feel about these?” tone, I suspect the reaction (as far as the calls for its removal) would be different. But that’s just my guess.
Thanks for the response, Reynard. Personally, I’m not calling for the comics to be taken down, I think open dialogue is fantastic. But I do think that automatic dismissals of a reaction of white guilt, or the notion that any accusations of racism come from some kind of unreasonable, chip-on-the-shoulder place, do just as much to (attempt to) silence the discussion as a call for the removal of a post like this. Personally, I thought the comics were racist and dumb and not funny, but didn’t feel actually indignant about the whole thing until reading some of the comments which attempted to dismiss or make illegitimate any claims of racism. To me, that discussion–why race is a valid thing to talk about–is far more necessary than any discussion of the comics themselves.
As for the call for the removal of the post, though, I’m guessing part of the reason for that was the tone of the original post, the “hey, you should buy this!” intent behind it. If it had been posted with a “how do we feel about these?” tone, I suspect the reaction (as far as the calls for its removal) would be different. But that’s just my guess.
Reynard, not wanting to give this comic the time of day isn’t about fear. Throwing out the idea that people are afraid to discuss difficult issues is the same as tossing out the phrase white guilt. Like what–you’re the only brave one? I’m sorry, but that’s just… not true.
Reynard, not wanting to give this comic the time of day isn’t about fear. Throwing out the idea that people are afraid to discuss difficult issues is the same as tossing out the phrase white guilt. Like what–you’re the only brave one? I’m sorry, but that’s just… not true.
…wait, this guy has another comic called Baby Sex?
we may have judged in haste.
…wait, this guy has another comic called Baby Sex?
we may have judged in haste.
roxane, i wasn’t trying to suggest that i was the only brave one or whatever. but it seems impossible to criticize that without sound like an asshole. i’m okay with that, i guess. it just seems that way to me. people do all sorts of things out of fear, so, yeah, i do think that. if someone is not okay with something it can just be stated and it was – i had no problem with that.
my thing is, i still don’t see why you guys think this cartoon is racist and thus condemnable. and no one actually replied to my thoughts on that subject.
i don’t see what stereotypes there are happening here. i don’t think she ‘doesn’t look white’ (it’s six lines with no shading, what are you talking about). and i don’t see why it matters that the word ‘wigger’ suggests that she wants to be black because i don’t see these stereotypes happening, there are way more direct ones on tv reruns and bet all the time. if anything, i think this comic is offensive to poor people, but it’s so dumb that i don’t think it matters.
i feel that it takes reading into this comic to say that wigger chick is just a stand-in for the black lower-classes and like, a way to get away with shitting on them. i read this last night before everyone commented and i just thought they were sort of funny and yeah, offensive, but not really territory that hasn’t already been breached before.
r. crumb dealt with being called a racist, quite a few comics artists have. if you wanted to read into krazy and ignatz to find as a racist comic i think you could. but i think this comic, like johnny ryan’s stuff before it, displays such a level of irreverence, absurdity, and thus, satire, as to render its crude offensiveness irrelevant.
roxane, i wasn’t trying to suggest that i was the only brave one or whatever. but it seems impossible to criticize that without sound like an asshole. i’m okay with that, i guess. it just seems that way to me. people do all sorts of things out of fear, so, yeah, i do think that. if someone is not okay with something it can just be stated and it was – i had no problem with that.
my thing is, i still don’t see why you guys think this cartoon is racist and thus condemnable. and no one actually replied to my thoughts on that subject.
i don’t see what stereotypes there are happening here. i don’t think she ‘doesn’t look white’ (it’s six lines with no shading, what are you talking about). and i don’t see why it matters that the word ‘wigger’ suggests that she wants to be black because i don’t see these stereotypes happening, there are way more direct ones on tv reruns and bet all the time. if anything, i think this comic is offensive to poor people, but it’s so dumb that i don’t think it matters.
i feel that it takes reading into this comic to say that wigger chick is just a stand-in for the black lower-classes and like, a way to get away with shitting on them. i read this last night before everyone commented and i just thought they were sort of funny and yeah, offensive, but not really territory that hasn’t already been breached before.
r. crumb dealt with being called a racist, quite a few comics artists have. if you wanted to read into krazy and ignatz to find as a racist comic i think you could. but i think this comic, like johnny ryan’s stuff before it, displays such a level of irreverence, absurdity, and thus, satire, as to render its crude offensiveness irrelevant.
oops, i have a life outside of htmlgiant and wasn’t here to chat all day.
i sincerely like wigger chick.
sorry i hurt everybody’s feelings by posting it.
i just think that being so sensitive about racial issues (especially if they are as shallow and immature as these) makes racism more serious and scary, which perpetuates racism in a way, in that we’re trying really hard to stay away from it.
something is always the victim of a joke. its the nature of jokes.
i really don’t see what’s so offensive about the samples i posted.
the things i think are funny about this comic aren’t racist.
i think nike guy is funny.
i think ‘uh-huh an’ wha bou me, uh-huh an wha bou me’ is funny.
i like that she says she’s bored of life while getting eaten out by a cat and eating pizza. maybe i’m immature.
there’s one strip that shows the evolution of man and at the end is wigger chick listening to ‘smell you dick’
there’s one where her baby tupac is taking his first steps and wigger chick goes ‘just tivo dat shit’
i like it.
i still think you should buy it.
i heard howard dinkel is a high school physics teacher.
oops, i have a life outside of htmlgiant and wasn’t here to chat all day.
i sincerely like wigger chick.
sorry i hurt everybody’s feelings by posting it.
i just think that being so sensitive about racial issues (especially if they are as shallow and immature as these) makes racism more serious and scary, which perpetuates racism in a way, in that we’re trying really hard to stay away from it.
something is always the victim of a joke. its the nature of jokes.
i really don’t see what’s so offensive about the samples i posted.
the things i think are funny about this comic aren’t racist.
i think nike guy is funny.
i think ‘uh-huh an’ wha bou me, uh-huh an wha bou me’ is funny.
i like that she says she’s bored of life while getting eaten out by a cat and eating pizza. maybe i’m immature.
there’s one strip that shows the evolution of man and at the end is wigger chick listening to ‘smell you dick’
there’s one where her baby tupac is taking his first steps and wigger chick goes ‘just tivo dat shit’
i like it.
i still think you should buy it.
i heard howard dinkel is a high school physics teacher.
wait, how does trying hard to stay away from something perpetuate it? if we just didn’t talk about it, wouldn’t it be perpetuated in, like, other ways? isn’t that what like the 1950s and all of the suburban white people being like “oh america is fine we are free” and that being the dominant american theme while minorities were subject to horrendous subjugation was all about? not talking about racism/exclusionary practices out loud and critiquing shit like this?
wait, how does trying hard to stay away from something perpetuate it? if we just didn’t talk about it, wouldn’t it be perpetuated in, like, other ways? isn’t that what like the 1950s and all of the suburban white people being like “oh america is fine we are free” and that being the dominant american theme while minorities were subject to horrendous subjugation was all about? not talking about racism/exclusionary practices out loud and critiquing shit like this?
And I just think that being so insensitive about racial issues (especially if they are as shallow and immature as these) makes racism more serious and scary, which perpetuates racism in a way, in that we’re not trying really hard to stay away from it.
something is always the victim of racism. its the nature of racism.
Chelsea Martin doesn’t see what’s so offensive about the samples posted.
More’s the pity.
And I just think that being so insensitive about racial issues (especially if they are as shallow and immature as these) makes racism more serious and scary, which perpetuates racism in a way, in that we’re not trying really hard to stay away from it.
something is always the victim of racism. its the nature of racism.
Chelsea Martin doesn’t see what’s so offensive about the samples posted.
More’s the pity.
There’s a difference between being “so sensitive about racial issues” and being aware of them, that is, aware of their gravity and implications.
And if taking it so seriously “makes racism more serious and scary, which perpetuates racism in a way, in that we’re trying really hard to stay away from it” — then promoting material that takes racism so lightly 100% perpetuates racism.
Your response is incoherent.
There’s a difference between being “so sensitive about racial issues” and being aware of them, that is, aware of their gravity and implications.
And if taking it so seriously “makes racism more serious and scary, which perpetuates racism in a way, in that we’re trying really hard to stay away from it” — then promoting material that takes racism so lightly 100% perpetuates racism.
Your response is incoherent.
Okay, Reynard, I’ll take the bait. How about I get to be disgusted because I’m a white woman, and, last time I checked urbandictionary, a “wigger chick” is a white woman? Let’s just go with the woman part of it for a moment. I’m sick to death of the message that a woman can’t be a mother and also sexual. See how funny, in strip 2, the woman who is having sex and is therefore a neglectful mother? Same idea when Tony Soprano says to his therapist that he needs a hooker to give him blow jobs because his wife kisses their kids with that mouth. Same idea, slightly upmarket spin, when the NYTimes publishes an editorial on how women shouldn’t ask their husbands to be in the birthing room, because it’s so gross down there, and why would he want to fuck that after seeing THAT (I’m not making this up)? Yeah, yeah, this is a joke and all, but some things really do hit too close to home. As a woman who wants to have children one day maybe but still have sex with the children’s father whoever that may be, I truly see the madonna/whore thing scarily often, and it affects me deeply and personally, and this cartoon reeks of it.
Please don’t take this as any sign that I’m agreeing to your terms. I feel perfectly at liberty to feel disgust with racism. But clearly you aren’t going to listen to anything I say on that front since I’m white. I do think it might be interesting for you to think about why you assumed my disgust was wholly about race, and not at all about gender, when in fact my comment above was nonspecific.
Okay, Reynard, I’ll take the bait. How about I get to be disgusted because I’m a white woman, and, last time I checked urbandictionary, a “wigger chick” is a white woman? Let’s just go with the woman part of it for a moment. I’m sick to death of the message that a woman can’t be a mother and also sexual. See how funny, in strip 2, the woman who is having sex and is therefore a neglectful mother? Same idea when Tony Soprano says to his therapist that he needs a hooker to give him blow jobs because his wife kisses their kids with that mouth. Same idea, slightly upmarket spin, when the NYTimes publishes an editorial on how women shouldn’t ask their husbands to be in the birthing room, because it’s so gross down there, and why would he want to fuck that after seeing THAT (I’m not making this up)? Yeah, yeah, this is a joke and all, but some things really do hit too close to home. As a woman who wants to have children one day maybe but still have sex with the children’s father whoever that may be, I truly see the madonna/whore thing scarily often, and it affects me deeply and personally, and this cartoon reeks of it.
Please don’t take this as any sign that I’m agreeing to your terms. I feel perfectly at liberty to feel disgust with racism. But clearly you aren’t going to listen to anything I say on that front since I’m white. I do think it might be interesting for you to think about why you assumed my disgust was wholly about race, and not at all about gender, when in fact my comment above was nonspecific.
Let’s say it’s funny when someone falls.
If a person falls and they happen to be black, then treating it seriously and calling people who laugh at it racist is racist.
Being overly sensitive turns the issue into another issue.
I live in Oakland, where there is a pretty active homeless/crazy person/drugged lunatic scene. In public, especially when I’m alone, I don’t talk to anybody of any ethnicity, even when approached and greeted in a friendly way because a) it’s impossible to tell who is who immediately b) I have no way of defending myself if someone tried to hurt me and c) I don’t have time for that shit and d) I’m not a very friendly person in general.
There are some exceptions if I’m in a good mood and asked a simple directional question.
Sometimes it happens that a black person says something to me and I, as usual, completely ignore them and get called a “fucking white bitch.” This seriously happens to me on a regular basis and only with black men. It is very uncomfortable and unpleasant.
If I were to start politely answering every black person who randomly wanted to talk to me in the street, even though it is not in my nature, just to avoid the confrontation, would that make me more or less racist? Is noticing that this is happening to me racist? Is talking about it racist? Should I not talk about it? Am I really a white bitch? Should I be something else?
If this shit was called White Trash Girl and the jokes were the same, would it be racist? Would it be just as obscene? Would we be having this conversation?
This comic isn’t making fun of an entire race. It’s not even making fun of any race. Wigger Chick is of a particular subculture and some of the jokes don’t even focus on it. Maybe deep down inside you feel better than wiggers and so it makes you uncomfortable to see people using the idea of a wigger in a light-hearted way. The same way we’re uncomfortable to make fun of the mentally disabled?
Do you feel offended to see rich people being made fun of? Politicians? People with huge boobs? Probably not. Why?
I’m not defending racism. But I am defending this comic.
Anyways she looks more Hispanic to me.
Let’s say it’s funny when someone falls.
If a person falls and they happen to be black, then treating it seriously and calling people who laugh at it racist is racist.
Being overly sensitive turns the issue into another issue.
I live in Oakland, where there is a pretty active homeless/crazy person/drugged lunatic scene. In public, especially when I’m alone, I don’t talk to anybody of any ethnicity, even when approached and greeted in a friendly way because a) it’s impossible to tell who is who immediately b) I have no way of defending myself if someone tried to hurt me and c) I don’t have time for that shit and d) I’m not a very friendly person in general.
There are some exceptions if I’m in a good mood and asked a simple directional question.
Sometimes it happens that a black person says something to me and I, as usual, completely ignore them and get called a “fucking white bitch.” This seriously happens to me on a regular basis and only with black men. It is very uncomfortable and unpleasant.
If I were to start politely answering every black person who randomly wanted to talk to me in the street, even though it is not in my nature, just to avoid the confrontation, would that make me more or less racist? Is noticing that this is happening to me racist? Is talking about it racist? Should I not talk about it? Am I really a white bitch? Should I be something else?
If this shit was called White Trash Girl and the jokes were the same, would it be racist? Would it be just as obscene? Would we be having this conversation?
This comic isn’t making fun of an entire race. It’s not even making fun of any race. Wigger Chick is of a particular subculture and some of the jokes don’t even focus on it. Maybe deep down inside you feel better than wiggers and so it makes you uncomfortable to see people using the idea of a wigger in a light-hearted way. The same way we’re uncomfortable to make fun of the mentally disabled?
Do you feel offended to see rich people being made fun of? Politicians? People with huge boobs? Probably not. Why?
I’m not defending racism. But I am defending this comic.
Anyways she looks more Hispanic to me.
Wow. OK OK OK OK OK. I need to express my two cents here. This is the most interesting post/thread since the Juggalo post and ensuing comment shitstorm on Hipster Runoff a few weeks ago:
http://www.hipsterrunoff.com/2009/10/horrorcore-is-bad-for-societyhumanity-horrorcore-must-die.html
When I first started reading these cartoons (like the first five seconds) I’m like ” What? “Wigger Chick”? What, does she wear a wig? Does she “wig out”?” And I’ll admit, I chuckled at the last frame of the first strip. It was the “$25,000,000” credit limit that did it. (The “l’il poke” on the Discover card dude is funny, too, but I didn’t catch that on my first read.) I didn’t “get” what Mr. Dinkel was gettin’ at with the “dubya-chick” moniker until the second strip, when it began to dawn on me very quickly what was happening here. But I found myself thinking “OK, at least baby Tupac looks chubby and healthy, he’s not being harmed, at least not physically. Not right now. Only psychologically. FOR LIFE! Ha ha ha! That’s funny!”
And “uh-huh an’ wha’ bou’ me, uh-huh an’ wha’ bou’ me” was funny to me, too.
I have come back to this post and this comments thread any number of times in the last 24 hours, trying in earnest to figure out for myself “what is it about these comics?” and “what do the comics and the issues they raise mean to me?” Are they “racist”? Are they lampooning a “mentality”, and dubya-chick’s ethnicity is irrelevant? Mr. Butler stumbles very early on in this comments thread – “objects blank of supposed content” – give me a fuckin’ break – (that blank piece of paper that got stared at for 500 hours that Jimmy Chen posted a few weeks ago – now _that_ is an “object blank of content”) – these few sparse comics are *loaded with* content.
And I gotta kinda agree with Ms. Martin when she says “the things i think are funny about this comic aren’t racist”.
I will admit that I personally am totally intrigued by the plethora of thoughts, feelings and opinions stirred up by this post. It has made me thoughtful about my own attitudes toward a number of things, including the nature of humor.
PS- I work in Oakland and have many encounters with folks of all ethnicities every day.
Wow. OK OK OK OK OK. I need to express my two cents here. This is the most interesting post/thread since the Juggalo post and ensuing comment shitstorm on Hipster Runoff a few weeks ago:
http://www.hipsterrunoff.com/2009/10/horrorcore-is-bad-for-societyhumanity-horrorcore-must-die.html
When I first started reading these cartoons (like the first five seconds) I’m like ” What? “Wigger Chick”? What, does she wear a wig? Does she “wig out”?” And I’ll admit, I chuckled at the last frame of the first strip. It was the “$25,000,000” credit limit that did it. (The “l’il poke” on the Discover card dude is funny, too, but I didn’t catch that on my first read.) I didn’t “get” what Mr. Dinkel was gettin’ at with the “dubya-chick” moniker until the second strip, when it began to dawn on me very quickly what was happening here. But I found myself thinking “OK, at least baby Tupac looks chubby and healthy, he’s not being harmed, at least not physically. Not right now. Only psychologically. FOR LIFE! Ha ha ha! That’s funny!”
And “uh-huh an’ wha’ bou’ me, uh-huh an’ wha’ bou’ me” was funny to me, too.
I have come back to this post and this comments thread any number of times in the last 24 hours, trying in earnest to figure out for myself “what is it about these comics?” and “what do the comics and the issues they raise mean to me?” Are they “racist”? Are they lampooning a “mentality”, and dubya-chick’s ethnicity is irrelevant? Mr. Butler stumbles very early on in this comments thread – “objects blank of supposed content” – give me a fuckin’ break – (that blank piece of paper that got stared at for 500 hours that Jimmy Chen posted a few weeks ago – now _that_ is an “object blank of content”) – these few sparse comics are *loaded with* content.
And I gotta kinda agree with Ms. Martin when she says “the things i think are funny about this comic aren’t racist”.
I will admit that I personally am totally intrigued by the plethora of thoughts, feelings and opinions stirred up by this post. It has made me thoughtful about my own attitudes toward a number of things, including the nature of humor.
PS- I work in Oakland and have many encounters with folks of all ethnicities every day.
“Do you feel offended to see rich people being made fun of? Politicians? People with huge boobs? Probably not. Why?”
You’re struggling because you don’t acknowledge the whole history of the subjugation and the caricaturization (with the intent of demeaning) black people in the United States. This is fundamentally different from the other examples you mention because those other examples have not historically been used to subjugate. And, more importantly, they are not attached to a whole violent history of basing the calculus of a human being’s value primarily off of the color of their skin.
I would make the same argument if a comic were presented which was as sexist as this is racist.
And you’re ham-fisted suggestion that having huge boobs in the United States is somehow on par with being black—in terms of how we load identities—patently absurd. You’re kindergarten attempt to retroactively intellectualize an indefensible stance is ridiculous.
“Do you feel offended to see rich people being made fun of? Politicians? People with huge boobs? Probably not. Why?”
You’re struggling because you don’t acknowledge the whole history of the subjugation and the caricaturization (with the intent of demeaning) black people in the United States. This is fundamentally different from the other examples you mention because those other examples have not historically been used to subjugate. And, more importantly, they are not attached to a whole violent history of basing the calculus of a human being’s value primarily off of the color of their skin.
I would make the same argument if a comic were presented which was as sexist as this is racist.
And you’re ham-fisted suggestion that having huge boobs in the United States is somehow on par with being black—in terms of how we load identities—patently absurd. You’re kindergarten attempt to retroactively intellectualize an indefensible stance is ridiculous.
Regardless of the racism, the half-heartedly curated discussion which followed ought to be embarrassing to other HTMLGiant contributors.
Stuff like: “oops, i have a life outside of htmlgiant and wasn’t here to chat all day.” How puerile.
Regardless of the racism, the half-heartedly curated discussion which followed ought to be embarrassing to other HTMLGiant contributors.
Stuff like: “oops, i have a life outside of htmlgiant and wasn’t here to chat all day.” How puerile.
Rest assured, it is embarrassing to some of us at least. Thanks, Christian, for your contribution to this discussion. Chelsea, I don’t know you, and I don’t think you mean ill, but this is a big miss, and I’m sad this work is promoted on a site I contribute to. I’m all for discussion of these issues, but not for promoting work like this as you’ve done.
Rest assured, it is embarrassing to some of us at least. Thanks, Christian, for your contribution to this discussion. Chelsea, I don’t know you, and I don’t think you mean ill, but this is a big miss, and I’m sad this work is promoted on a site I contribute to. I’m all for discussion of these issues, but not for promoting work like this as you’ve done.
Here is the English translation of your post- “I have had experiences with individual black men exhibiting racism toward me, and therefore I can say whatever I want about “them” and it’s all the same.” The racism is in the shift from a series of discreet encounters to a generalization about the entire group. This is the “Oh, Tim’s just been weird around blacks ever since one mugged him in 2001.”
And fyi, yes, the term White Trash is *also* pretty disgusting. Why? Because the implication of the term is that all the other races are all trash all the time, and so if we are talking about some trash who happen to also be white, we need to specify, lest the person we’re talking to assume we meant the usual niggers and spics. That’s where the term comes from, and that is what it implies; there’s no amount of undergrad-level relativist nonsense you can throw at it to make that not true.
The issue here is not sensitivity. The issue here is you are trying to defend the indefensible, and the difficulties of doing so have made you first into an ally of some truly disgusting worldviews, and now, into a liar. Because the notion that the comic is “not even making fun of any race” is so fucking stupid I have to assume you don’t mean it. Anyone who actually believed that would be incapable of typing the sentence that communicates it. Besides which, if you really thought that, you wouldn’t have spent the longest paragraph in your comment trying to make a case that you are really just responding in kind to racism you yourself have experienced in the past. As if it worked that way!
Let’s try an example: A Japanese guy driving a car nails a puddle and soaks me standing on the curb. So I walk across the street into a Vietnamese restaurant and slap the maitre’d in his gook fucking face. What’s one Asian to another? One of them trespassed against me, and so I got my revenge on one of them, and now everything’s even. Right?
Here is the English translation of your post- “I have had experiences with individual black men exhibiting racism toward me, and therefore I can say whatever I want about “them” and it’s all the same.” The racism is in the shift from a series of discreet encounters to a generalization about the entire group. This is the “Oh, Tim’s just been weird around blacks ever since one mugged him in 2001.”
And fyi, yes, the term White Trash is *also* pretty disgusting. Why? Because the implication of the term is that all the other races are all trash all the time, and so if we are talking about some trash who happen to also be white, we need to specify, lest the person we’re talking to assume we meant the usual niggers and spics. That’s where the term comes from, and that is what it implies; there’s no amount of undergrad-level relativist nonsense you can throw at it to make that not true.
The issue here is not sensitivity. The issue here is you are trying to defend the indefensible, and the difficulties of doing so have made you first into an ally of some truly disgusting worldviews, and now, into a liar. Because the notion that the comic is “not even making fun of any race” is so fucking stupid I have to assume you don’t mean it. Anyone who actually believed that would be incapable of typing the sentence that communicates it. Besides which, if you really thought that, you wouldn’t have spent the longest paragraph in your comment trying to make a case that you are really just responding in kind to racism you yourself have experienced in the past. As if it worked that way!
Let’s try an example: A Japanese guy driving a car nails a puddle and soaks me standing on the curb. So I walk across the street into a Vietnamese restaurant and slap the maitre’d in his gook fucking face. What’s one Asian to another? One of them trespassed against me, and so I got my revenge on one of them, and now everything’s even. Right?
“on par with being black” – most racist comment anyone’s made yet.
it’s a fucking comic strip guys, not a murder weapon. get over it.
“on par with being black” – most racist comment anyone’s made yet.
it’s a fucking comic strip guys, not a murder weapon. get over it.
taking offense is the true offense. what it means it that you are worried about your Self.
taking offense is the true offense. what it means it that you are worried about your Self.
actually the most racist thing that’s happened in this thread is whoever above said that roxane is the only person that can speak about it. what kind of compartmentalizing here-for-a-special-purpose-only bullshit is that?
if we’re older than 16, which i believe most of us are, it seems like we should be able to look at some beyond the obviously intended shock value of it (i mean really, you are falling exactly into what the creator wanted you to do, most likely) and either (a) if we don’t think it’s good, ignore it, don’t give it credence, go on to something else or (b) talk about it beyond kneejerk, first-thought canned speech. Yes it is a deliberately balls out cartoon. No the only response to it is to assume the creator is making racist assault, unless you are in your own mind only capable of the response of racial assault, which is a whole other ball of complicated personal wax.
even depeche mode was smart enough to know that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE, not assemblages of traits, and the more seriously you worry about and give air to those incidental traits, the more shallow and blank and feeding to the cause of the true thing you claim to hate, PREJUDICE, than this comic does by far.
that’s all i have to say about this.
actually the most racist thing that’s happened in this thread is whoever above said that roxane is the only person that can speak about it. what kind of compartmentalizing here-for-a-special-purpose-only bullshit is that?
if we’re older than 16, which i believe most of us are, it seems like we should be able to look at some beyond the obviously intended shock value of it (i mean really, you are falling exactly into what the creator wanted you to do, most likely) and either (a) if we don’t think it’s good, ignore it, don’t give it credence, go on to something else or (b) talk about it beyond kneejerk, first-thought canned speech. Yes it is a deliberately balls out cartoon. No the only response to it is to assume the creator is making racist assault, unless you are in your own mind only capable of the response of racial assault, which is a whole other ball of complicated personal wax.
even depeche mode was smart enough to know that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE, not assemblages of traits, and the more seriously you worry about and give air to those incidental traits, the more shallow and blank and feeding to the cause of the true thing you claim to hate, PREJUDICE, than this comic does by far.
that’s all i have to say about this.
Blake, we’ve been talking about this for two days now, and the case against it has been both nuanced and broad. I feel like I’ve been more than generous with my time, as far as articulating my position with specific regard to what we’re talking about here. You’re not getting platitudes and canned speech here, and the fact that that’s how you’re reading these responses is itself deeply troubling.
You and Chelsea both keep falling back on these generalized, abstract arguments: “what does it mean to be offended?” “what does it mean to make fun of something?” These are all straw man arguments, because I’m not trying to have a philosophical discussion. I didn’t come here to solve the problem of racism for all time. My argument is specific to the work in question, and grounded only in what I read and what has been said about it. You punch me in the face. I say, “you just punched me in the face.” You say, “is it possible to justify a teleological suspension of the ethical?” Well, yeah, maybe or maybe not–interesting question. But there remains the matter of my bruised face.
It is not a question of my or anyone’s “offense.” You can put that aside. The “work” is what it is. Christian’s word, “puerile,” also fits nicely in describing it. It’s a question of what this site is about. You’ve now had well over 24 hours of responses from contributors, as well as from our best and most dedicated commenters, telling you that there is a problem here. You do with that information whatever you think best.
Blake, we’ve been talking about this for two days now, and the case against it has been both nuanced and broad. I feel like I’ve been more than generous with my time, as far as articulating my position with specific regard to what we’re talking about here. You’re not getting platitudes and canned speech here, and the fact that that’s how you’re reading these responses is itself deeply troubling.
You and Chelsea both keep falling back on these generalized, abstract arguments: “what does it mean to be offended?” “what does it mean to make fun of something?” These are all straw man arguments, because I’m not trying to have a philosophical discussion. I didn’t come here to solve the problem of racism for all time. My argument is specific to the work in question, and grounded only in what I read and what has been said about it. You punch me in the face. I say, “you just punched me in the face.” You say, “is it possible to justify a teleological suspension of the ethical?” Well, yeah, maybe or maybe not–interesting question. But there remains the matter of my bruised face.
It is not a question of my or anyone’s “offense.” You can put that aside. The “work” is what it is. Christian’s word, “puerile,” also fits nicely in describing it. It’s a question of what this site is about. You’ve now had well over 24 hours of responses from contributors, as well as from our best and most dedicated commenters, telling you that there is a problem here. You do with that information whatever you think best.
Justin, your face is not bruised.
Justin, your face is not bruised.
But you’re right, this conversation is over.
But you’re right, this conversation is over.
three things —
~Why can’t talking about racism in the cartoon be seen as part of the conversation, why must it be seen as shutting it down? If somebody says something offends them, isn’t the next question why? Shouldn’t that be the beginning of a conversation and not the end?
~I am trying to understand your dialogue w/ Adam about objects and context, but I am maybe not smart enough. What I believe is: whether its the context of creating, context of viewing/experiencing, context of interpretation… I do not think objects are ever truly outside a context, everything is mediated by context… and I feel like to remove and object from context is to turn it into a fetish object. I don’t think this means fetish objects are necessarily “bad,” many are super fascinating, but I think there are also many fetish objects that inflict or perpetuate harm.
three things —
~Why can’t talking about racism in the cartoon be seen as part of the conversation, why must it be seen as shutting it down? If somebody says something offends them, isn’t the next question why? Shouldn’t that be the beginning of a conversation and not the end?
~I am trying to understand your dialogue w/ Adam about objects and context, but I am maybe not smart enough. What I believe is: whether its the context of creating, context of viewing/experiencing, context of interpretation… I do not think objects are ever truly outside a context, everything is mediated by context… and I feel like to remove and object from context is to turn it into a fetish object. I don’t think this means fetish objects are necessarily “bad,” many are super fascinating, but I think there are also many fetish objects that inflict or perpetuate harm.
I don’t really agree or operate w/ the dictionary definition of racism above… I don’t believe individual prejudice is “racism” unless backed by systems, institutions, structures, dominant culture… or as some folks have explained it, “racism = prejudice + power.” This is what we mean when we say, “there is no such thing as ‘reverse racism.'”
I don’t really agree or operate w/ the dictionary definition of racism above… I don’t believe individual prejudice is “racism” unless backed by systems, institutions, structures, dominant culture… or as some folks have explained it, “racism = prejudice + power.” This is what we mean when we say, “there is no such thing as ‘reverse racism.'”
two things. cannot count.
Is this racist or classist?
I mean, the same jokes could be made if the strip was titled “The Adventures of White Trash Ho.” Change the baby’s name from “Tupac” to “Dale Jr.” and there you go, no racism. I mean, she clearly likes Kid Rock, and everyone knows only white trash likes Kid Rock.
Does everyone here think only black people can be poor, stupid, and talk like idiots?
two things. cannot count.
Is this racist or classist?
I mean, the same jokes could be made if the strip was titled “The Adventures of White Trash Ho.” Change the baby’s name from “Tupac” to “Dale Jr.” and there you go, no racism. I mean, she clearly likes Kid Rock, and everyone knows only white trash likes Kid Rock.
Does everyone here think only black people can be poor, stupid, and talk like idiots?
I doubt it. But in general, such class traits are aggregated to african-americans. The fact that she is called “Wigger Chick” in reference to the word nigger, referencing a caucasian’s attempt at imitating the ‘style’ of his/her african-american counterparts, means this is to say this is how we act in general. This is a caucasian’s representation of who we are as a people.
yes, it is a class issue. stick anyone in a certain neighborhood filled with those of similar ‘forced class’ (meaning by use of purposed governmental movements to perpetuate and deal with an incidentally created class of citizen), and they will tend to speak alike. but this isn’t that the strip is attempting.
what the strip is, is a facsimile of designed media stereotypes phrased to create separation not only between classes, but between people of “different color shades of the same color”. The problem here is the lack of awareness that these things are designed to grip onto those embedded ideas in peoples minds and concrete these ideas, making the goal of those who initiated these images complete. what the artist should have attempted, not only as a responsible artist, but as someone who, if they are going to attempt something of this magnitude, is aware of the Establishment’s social devices, to not perpetuate the machines attempts to increase separation. They should’ve made it hilarious with added levels of insight. Not “blackface” the comic strip and then call it Andy Warhol.
I still would not be alright with the babys name as “Dale jr.” and the title of the work as “The Adventures of White Trash Ho”. Things would still need to be addressed. Although, sadly, the way America has been constructed is not only a chasm of class, but a chasm of class and race. And hand in hand, for quite some time, class and race has been a tandem. It wasn’t that you were just low-class, but you were low-class *and black*. Whereas, in the eyes of the established society, being poor and white, there was, being poor +and white+. ( A plus). This carries over still today, as we’re still climbing for a plateau of equality. And not just among “blacks”. It has evened out, where there is a bond between those of particular classes, but the true seedy underbelly of racism in America isn’t gone, what so ever. The government needs it and therefore will not allow it to vanish. It requires us to change it. This comic strip isn’t such an attempt. And no, not everything must be that attempt. But this should’ve been.
I doubt it. But in general, such class traits are aggregated to african-americans. The fact that she is called “Wigger Chick” in reference to the word nigger, referencing a caucasian’s attempt at imitating the ‘style’ of his/her african-american counterparts, means this is to say this is how we act in general. This is a caucasian’s representation of who we are as a people.
yes, it is a class issue. stick anyone in a certain neighborhood filled with those of similar ‘forced class’ (meaning by use of purposed governmental movements to perpetuate and deal with an incidentally created class of citizen), and they will tend to speak alike. but this isn’t that the strip is attempting.
what the strip is, is a facsimile of designed media stereotypes phrased to create separation not only between classes, but between people of “different color shades of the same color”. The problem here is the lack of awareness that these things are designed to grip onto those embedded ideas in peoples minds and concrete these ideas, making the goal of those who initiated these images complete. what the artist should have attempted, not only as a responsible artist, but as someone who, if they are going to attempt something of this magnitude, is aware of the Establishment’s social devices, to not perpetuate the machines attempts to increase separation. They should’ve made it hilarious with added levels of insight. Not “blackface” the comic strip and then call it Andy Warhol.
I still would not be alright with the babys name as “Dale jr.” and the title of the work as “The Adventures of White Trash Ho”. Things would still need to be addressed. Although, sadly, the way America has been constructed is not only a chasm of class, but a chasm of class and race. And hand in hand, for quite some time, class and race has been a tandem. It wasn’t that you were just low-class, but you were low-class *and black*. Whereas, in the eyes of the established society, being poor and white, there was, being poor +and white+. ( A plus). This carries over still today, as we’re still climbing for a plateau of equality. And not just among “blacks”. It has evened out, where there is a bond between those of particular classes, but the true seedy underbelly of racism in America isn’t gone, what so ever. The government needs it and therefore will not allow it to vanish. It requires us to change it. This comic strip isn’t such an attempt. And no, not everything must be that attempt. But this should’ve been.
Gene, I believe it is both. Doesn’t have to be one or the other. Race is inextricably tied with class in this country. But this piece specifically mentions race. So changing the names to Dale Jr and calling her White Trash Ho (that adds more sexism too) would get reid of the racism. Would still be disgusting garbage. And it’s a pretty abstract thing to ponder, since the piece brings up race. The commentators didn’t bring it up.
Gene, I believe it is both. Doesn’t have to be one or the other. Race is inextricably tied with class in this country. But this piece specifically mentions race. So changing the names to Dale Jr and calling her White Trash Ho (that adds more sexism too) would get reid of the racism. Would still be disgusting garbage. And it’s a pretty abstract thing to ponder, since the piece brings up race. The commentators didn’t bring it up.
I’ll just add a few things before I dash off to a PANK meeting. I may use curse words. This is not intended as a personal attack on anyone but I need to break some shit down.
This discussion has gone the way of all discussions on race–to very bizarre places.
Whoever said that only I can speak about this cartoon, I respectfully disagree for so many reasons, I don’t know where to start. So long as we continue to believe that only black people can talk about racism or queer people can talk about homophobia, the conversations will never be productive. For one, that paints these identities as monolithic and easily quantifiable when in fact there are multiplicities to being black or Hispanic or Asian or Queer or working class or whatever I am, in fact, Haitian, or Haitian American. I was raised that way no matter where we lived as a child. I’ve lived in the middle of nowhere most of my life so if you think I have some kind of magical understanding of blackness, you’d be sadly mistaken.
Another thing that happens in discussions about race is that people try to define racism and make it such that everyone is racist. Sorry, no. I don’t have time today to explain all the reasons why that’s incorrect and crazy but please do take my word on it. Other terms like white guilt are thrown out and people want to then intellectualize and think through things as if this is all a very pleasant academic exercise. Unfortunately, we live in a very complex world rife with complex histories and we are CLEARLY all fucked up about race. We can have great conversations about racism, race in art, race in literature, etc etc etc but to think that we could do so in a way that isolates context is naive.
Sensitivity. Finding this comic racist or problematic or puerile (which someone tossed out and is a great word) is not sensitive. When I watch the Folger’s commercial where the son comes home for Christmas and makes his family coffee on Christmas morning and start to cry, I am being sensitive. When I cry during New Moon because Bella and Edward can’t be together, I am being sensitive. When I look at and discuss the cultural messages embedded in this comic–messages about race, class, and the performance and interpretation of race and class by white people and feel angry, disgusted, offended, irritated as shit I am not being sensitive. I am being human. There is a difference.
Opinions and interests. We all have them. We’re all entitled to them. And so while I am dismayed that this was posted on a forum with which I am associated, I wouldn’t say that it needs to be taken down. If Chelsea likes it, and she has that right and part of me thinks she’s digging her heels in at this point more than anything else. Further more, the damage has been done. This bell can’t be unrung. Unpublishing content sets a bad tone I think. It reeks of censorship and that isn’t ideal either.
“I live in Oakland.” Really? REALLY? I don’t know you Chelsea and I don’t mean this as a personal attack but that was such an unfortunate thing to say. Whenever white people want to justify some nonsense regarding race, one of the first things they do is toss out some ridiculous statement about how they’ve had to deal with members of a certain community like what, that anoints you? Black men saying crass and inappropriate things to you is more about them being men. They do it to black women too, trust me. I mean, I could talk about living in rural america, in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula where people drive around with confederate flags all over their trucks (inexplicably, as this is not the South) and every single day I hear people who look like me referred to as colored or the “n” word and no one says shit because that’s just the way it is. Everyone is a minority somewhere only when I go to Oakland, I’m still a minority and that doesn’t make me any more qualified to speak about race than you but it’s something you should think about.
Finally, people keep asking if this is about race. If it the comic strip were called something else, maybe it would just be about class or gender or stupidity. BUT THE WORD WIGGER is part of the title and in case you missed it, wigger means white nigger and we all know that the n-word has always and will always be a term used to denigrate black people.
I’ll just add a few things before I dash off to a PANK meeting. I may use curse words. This is not intended as a personal attack on anyone but I need to break some shit down.
This discussion has gone the way of all discussions on race–to very bizarre places.
Whoever said that only I can speak about this cartoon, I respectfully disagree for so many reasons, I don’t know where to start. So long as we continue to believe that only black people can talk about racism or queer people can talk about homophobia, the conversations will never be productive. For one, that paints these identities as monolithic and easily quantifiable when in fact there are multiplicities to being black or Hispanic or Asian or Queer or working class or whatever I am, in fact, Haitian, or Haitian American. I was raised that way no matter where we lived as a child. I’ve lived in the middle of nowhere most of my life so if you think I have some kind of magical understanding of blackness, you’d be sadly mistaken.
Another thing that happens in discussions about race is that people try to define racism and make it such that everyone is racist. Sorry, no. I don’t have time today to explain all the reasons why that’s incorrect and crazy but please do take my word on it. Other terms like white guilt are thrown out and people want to then intellectualize and think through things as if this is all a very pleasant academic exercise. Unfortunately, we live in a very complex world rife with complex histories and we are CLEARLY all fucked up about race. We can have great conversations about racism, race in art, race in literature, etc etc etc but to think that we could do so in a way that isolates context is naive.
Sensitivity. Finding this comic racist or problematic or puerile (which someone tossed out and is a great word) is not sensitive. When I watch the Folger’s commercial where the son comes home for Christmas and makes his family coffee on Christmas morning and start to cry, I am being sensitive. When I cry during New Moon because Bella and Edward can’t be together, I am being sensitive. When I look at and discuss the cultural messages embedded in this comic–messages about race, class, and the performance and interpretation of race and class by white people and feel angry, disgusted, offended, irritated as shit I am not being sensitive. I am being human. There is a difference.
Opinions and interests. We all have them. We’re all entitled to them. And so while I am dismayed that this was posted on a forum with which I am associated, I wouldn’t say that it needs to be taken down. If Chelsea likes it, and she has that right and part of me thinks she’s digging her heels in at this point more than anything else. Further more, the damage has been done. This bell can’t be unrung. Unpublishing content sets a bad tone I think. It reeks of censorship and that isn’t ideal either.
“I live in Oakland.” Really? REALLY? I don’t know you Chelsea and I don’t mean this as a personal attack but that was such an unfortunate thing to say. Whenever white people want to justify some nonsense regarding race, one of the first things they do is toss out some ridiculous statement about how they’ve had to deal with members of a certain community like what, that anoints you? Black men saying crass and inappropriate things to you is more about them being men. They do it to black women too, trust me. I mean, I could talk about living in rural america, in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula where people drive around with confederate flags all over their trucks (inexplicably, as this is not the South) and every single day I hear people who look like me referred to as colored or the “n” word and no one says shit because that’s just the way it is. Everyone is a minority somewhere only when I go to Oakland, I’m still a minority and that doesn’t make me any more qualified to speak about race than you but it’s something you should think about.
Finally, people keep asking if this is about race. If it the comic strip were called something else, maybe it would just be about class or gender or stupidity. BUT THE WORD WIGGER is part of the title and in case you missed it, wigger means white nigger and we all know that the n-word has always and will always be a term used to denigrate black people.
gene’s comment ftw
gene’s comment ftw
Yes Justin, you have an MFA and I have only a silly little undergraduate degree so yes my experiences mean nothing.
But I will say that I didn’t give that example to say that racism is okay. I’m not trying to say anything racist. I didn’t create the comic, you know. I gave the example to illustrate that racist experiences are not always simple and, given the history of racism, extreme sensitivity happens when there isn’t even any racism going on in the first place. As in my experience.
Yes Justin, you have an MFA and I have only a silly little undergraduate degree so yes my experiences mean nothing.
But I will say that I didn’t give that example to say that racism is okay. I’m not trying to say anything racist. I didn’t create the comic, you know. I gave the example to illustrate that racist experiences are not always simple and, given the history of racism, extreme sensitivity happens when there isn’t even any racism going on in the first place. As in my experience.
i live in oakland COMMA bunch of other shit. get a grip. use your quotations correctly.
i live in oakland COMMA bunch of other shit. get a grip. use your quotations correctly.
The comic is of course both classist and racist, but I can’t even imagine what argument you are trying to make by saying if you removed all the black stereotypes (of which a baby named tupac is only one), that it would cease to be racist. Sure, but what does that prove? If I make the vaudeville performer wipe off the black face and stop singing in faux-black speak, it might not be racist either.
The comic is of course both classist and racist, but I can’t even imagine what argument you are trying to make by saying if you removed all the black stereotypes (of which a baby named tupac is only one), that it would cease to be racist. Sure, but what does that prove? If I make the vaudeville performer wipe off the black face and stop singing in faux-black speak, it might not be racist either.
haha, the n-word.
i mean at this point, what is the point of that?
I have nothing substantive to add. I just wanted to say that this was the funniest/dumbest HTMLGIANT thread I’ve read yet. Y’all are the best.
haha, the n-word.
i mean at this point, what is the point of that?
I have nothing substantive to add. I just wanted to say that this was the funniest/dumbest HTMLGIANT thread I’ve read yet. Y’all are the best.
Also, it’s “long, sordid history.” A sorted history would be boring.
Also, it’s “long, sordid history.” A sorted history would be boring.
My point was that the “black speak” is not “black speak,” it is “uneducated poor people speak.” The black stereotypes you’re referencing are really stereotypes I could throw on any group of poor uneducated people, including poor uneducated white people.
My point was that the “black speak” is not “black speak,” it is “uneducated poor people speak.” The black stereotypes you’re referencing are really stereotypes I could throw on any group of poor uneducated people, including poor uneducated white people.
Just to clarify, Roxane, I never meant to imply that only black people can talk about this cartoon. I was trying to respond to blake’s idea that the distanced perspective was the productive one, the difference between perspective that enhances and perspective that obscures. I wasn’t referring to you as an example of a black person, I was referring to you as an example of someone with a developed sense of these issues– let’s call it subtlety, if you prefer to not use the term sensitivity, which personally I think you may be unfairly conflating with sentimentality– which you have demonstrated not through your blackness because honestly I’m just taking your word for that, but through the thoughtfulness of your prose here, compared to blake and chelsey who in their responses sound like nincompoops, at least as far as these matters are concerned.
Just to clarify, Roxane, I never meant to imply that only black people can talk about this cartoon. I was trying to respond to blake’s idea that the distanced perspective was the productive one, the difference between perspective that enhances and perspective that obscures. I wasn’t referring to you as an example of a black person, I was referring to you as an example of someone with a developed sense of these issues– let’s call it subtlety, if you prefer to not use the term sensitivity, which personally I think you may be unfairly conflating with sentimentality– which you have demonstrated not through your blackness because honestly I’m just taking your word for that, but through the thoughtfulness of your prose here, compared to blake and chelsey who in their responses sound like nincompoops, at least as far as these matters are concerned.
“I mean, I could talk about living in rural america, in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula where people drive around with confederate flags all over their trucks (inexplicably, as this is not the South) and every single day I hear people who look like me referred to as colored or the “n” word and no one says shit because that’s just the way it is.”
This, to me, is what a discussion like this really boils down to, the prevalence of this kind of behavior in the world that we live in. If that were really all over and done with, then maybe I could buy this sort of postmodern, postracial defense of things being able to rely on racist ideas/stereotypes for humor in this way. But I live in a world populated largely by white people who you wouldn’t easily classify as racist or bigoted, who in theory profess to believe in all kinds of equality, who might even have friends of other races, etc., and yet who still in everyday conversation and interaction fall back on these utterly racist stereotypes/slurs/etc. Maybe some people haven’t been in an environment where they’re exposed to that, I don’t know. But from where I sit, racism is still so clearly alive and well and problematic, and we aren’t in a “beyond it” enough place to be able to just laugh at the stereotypes when those stereotypes are still such a deeply ingrained part of the way one group of people think about and talk about another group. Honestly, these comics just feel like any number of white people I overhear commenting on or mocking black people in an ordinary daily context. And regardless of where we are with regard to legal equality/equally available opportunities.etc., that kind of racism in society is still a huge problem.
“I mean, I could talk about living in rural america, in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula where people drive around with confederate flags all over their trucks (inexplicably, as this is not the South) and every single day I hear people who look like me referred to as colored or the “n” word and no one says shit because that’s just the way it is.”
This, to me, is what a discussion like this really boils down to, the prevalence of this kind of behavior in the world that we live in. If that were really all over and done with, then maybe I could buy this sort of postmodern, postracial defense of things being able to rely on racist ideas/stereotypes for humor in this way. But I live in a world populated largely by white people who you wouldn’t easily classify as racist or bigoted, who in theory profess to believe in all kinds of equality, who might even have friends of other races, etc., and yet who still in everyday conversation and interaction fall back on these utterly racist stereotypes/slurs/etc. Maybe some people haven’t been in an environment where they’re exposed to that, I don’t know. But from where I sit, racism is still so clearly alive and well and problematic, and we aren’t in a “beyond it” enough place to be able to just laugh at the stereotypes when those stereotypes are still such a deeply ingrained part of the way one group of people think about and talk about another group. Honestly, these comics just feel like any number of white people I overhear commenting on or mocking black people in an ordinary daily context. And regardless of where we are with regard to legal equality/equally available opportunities.etc., that kind of racism in society is still a huge problem.
In my locale at least, the language used here is definitely specifically associated with “black speak,” ie. yo’, fo’, wha’ choo wan’? If I hear someone speak that way, they’re always “imitating” a black person. There’s a whole other kind of “speak” I would classify as more “hickish” that’s used for mocking poor, uneducated white people. Not to say they aren’t equally problematic, but there’s a definite distinction, at least in these parts.
In my locale at least, the language used here is definitely specifically associated with “black speak,” ie. yo’, fo’, wha’ choo wan’? If I hear someone speak that way, they’re always “imitating” a black person. There’s a whole other kind of “speak” I would classify as more “hickish” that’s used for mocking poor, uneducated white people. Not to say they aren’t equally problematic, but there’s a definite distinction, at least in these parts.
There’s a distinction here too, but there are also plenty of white and hispanic people in urban areas that speak this way, and it’s because of where they live and their level of eduction, not their race.
None of this is to defend the term “wigger,” or even the cartoon strips. I honestly just think a lot of things that get called-out as racist actually have more to do with class than anything, especially as our culture evolves and becomes less segregated.
While this guy may, in fact, be racist, I do think the existence of these cartoons is something interesting in terms of American views on class and cultural integration, which is a much more interesting and thoughtful conversation than “this dude is racist.”
There’s a distinction here too, but there are also plenty of white and hispanic people in urban areas that speak this way, and it’s because of where they live and their level of eduction, not their race.
None of this is to defend the term “wigger,” or even the cartoon strips. I honestly just think a lot of things that get called-out as racist actually have more to do with class than anything, especially as our culture evolves and becomes less segregated.
While this guy may, in fact, be racist, I do think the existence of these cartoons is something interesting in terms of American views on class and cultural integration, which is a much more interesting and thoughtful conversation than “this dude is racist.”
exactly.
exactly.
hi christian, i am not embarrassed by the ‘half-heartedly curated’ discussion here, because i dont think it has been curated half-heartedly. i dont think there is much half-heartedness here both in how blake has managed the discussion and in how most contributors/commentors have been interacting. i do not like the original post, and i do not like the comics, but i feel that i have benefited from reading this thread. i disagree with calls to take the post down, and i disagree with the idea that i should feel embarrassed as a contributor (though i understand why other contributors might feel differently).
hi christian, i am not embarrassed by the ‘half-heartedly curated’ discussion here, because i dont think it has been curated half-heartedly. i dont think there is much half-heartedness here both in how blake has managed the discussion and in how most contributors/commentors have been interacting. i do not like the original post, and i do not like the comics, but i feel that i have benefited from reading this thread. i disagree with calls to take the post down, and i disagree with the idea that i should feel embarrassed as a contributor (though i understand why other contributors might feel differently).
That stuff is definitely stereotypical poor black speech. Yes, there are people of other races who IMITATE that style of speak, especially if they interested in certain parts of black culture, but that is not “poor person speech” writ large.
I grew up in rural virginia. If someone was imitating/mocking rural white hicks, they didn’t start going, “Yo, homie lets go bang some tupac fo’ so’.” Come on.
I’d also suggest that racist stereotypes about blacks in america are inevitably bound up in assumptions about class for a variety of historical reasons.
That stuff is definitely stereotypical poor black speech. Yes, there are people of other races who IMITATE that style of speak, especially if they interested in certain parts of black culture, but that is not “poor person speech” writ large.
I grew up in rural virginia. If someone was imitating/mocking rural white hicks, they didn’t start going, “Yo, homie lets go bang some tupac fo’ so’.” Come on.
I’d also suggest that racist stereotypes about blacks in america are inevitably bound up in assumptions about class for a variety of historical reasons.
You honestly want to argue that stuff like “azz”, “das’ it” “fo’ so” and “word up” aren’t stereotypical urban black/hip-hop terms?
but there are also plenty of white and hispanic people in urban areas that speak this way, and it’s because of where they live and their level of eduction, not their race.
Disagree. Whites or hispanics speaking that way are doing so because they are involved or infatuated with things that we would normally think of as being part of black culture, such as hip-hop. Poor whites and hipsanics who do not want to be associated with that are unlikely to talk around saying fo shizzle and stuff.
You honestly want to argue that stuff like “azz”, “das’ it” “fo’ so” and “word up” aren’t stereotypical urban black/hip-hop terms?
but there are also plenty of white and hispanic people in urban areas that speak this way, and it’s because of where they live and their level of eduction, not their race.
Disagree. Whites or hispanics speaking that way are doing so because they are involved or infatuated with things that we would normally think of as being part of black culture, such as hip-hop. Poor whites and hipsanics who do not want to be associated with that are unlikely to talk around saying fo shizzle and stuff.
i just enjoy how the protagonist’s child looks like lou dobbs.
i just enjoy how the protagonist’s child looks like lou dobbs.
The people of other races don’t IMITATE anything. This is the way they actually speak. Sure, stereotypically these are examples of poor black speech, but as this cartoon points out, this type of speech is no longer limited to poor black people.
The people of other races don’t IMITATE anything. This is the way they actually speak. Sure, stereotypically these are examples of poor black speech, but as this cartoon points out, this type of speech is no longer limited to poor black people.
I want to make one quick clarification. I very carefully and intentionally said, “I would take it off the site if I could” not, “this should be taken down.” If this comic were posted on the bulletin board in my building, I would rip it down–I wouldn’t call the management company and ask for it to be removed. In principle, it should not be unpublished, censored, whatever. But in practice, if this were a poster that I could with my hands destroy, I would. More of civil disobedience than censorship.
I want to make one quick clarification. I very carefully and intentionally said, “I would take it off the site if I could” not, “this should be taken down.” If this comic were posted on the bulletin board in my building, I would rip it down–I wouldn’t call the management company and ask for it to be removed. In principle, it should not be unpublished, censored, whatever. But in practice, if this were a poster that I could with my hands destroy, I would. More of civil disobedience than censorship.
It’s clear that those protesting the discussion of race think that they are being somehow transgressive or original in their thinking when in fact these are just the same old classic moves of white privilege reappearing yet again. Funny how people think “time-honored tradition of trying to shut up oppressed people” = edgy. I refer to coffeeandink for a more in-depth look at these tactics. http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html
It’s clear that those protesting the discussion of race think that they are being somehow transgressive or original in their thinking when in fact these are just the same old classic moves of white privilege reappearing yet again. Funny how people think “time-honored tradition of trying to shut up oppressed people” = edgy. I refer to coffeeandink for a more in-depth look at these tactics. http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html
That makes a lot of sense. I would be disobedient too if I saw this hanging out on a bulletin board. I’d probably write something all over it.
That makes a lot of sense. I would be disobedient too if I saw this hanging out on a bulletin board. I’d probably write something all over it.
Black people like Kid Rock?
Black people like Kid Rock?
The comments in this post are absurdly long. Can we just agree that people that disagree with us are bigots?
The comments in this post are absurdly long. Can we just agree that people that disagree with us are bigots?
I don’t think anyone is trying to shut anyone else up. That’s why this post stands, and why all of the subsequent comments stand. You can say whatever you want here. It’s an open forum.
I don’t think anyone is trying to shut anyone else up. That’s why this post stands, and why all of the subsequent comments stand. You can say whatever you want here. It’s an open forum.
everyones talking about this now. i read this yesterday and thought it was kind of funny. wigger chick is hilariously angry at everyone. its absurd. it didnt even register in me that wigger is white nigger, but yeah, oh. i remember that term wigger from like 8th grade. i think i got called it because i wore baggy pants once. i don’t know, i don’t get worked up. i’m a white male nihilist i guess. i can respect it pisses people off though, but man, when it did get so political at htmlgiant. it used to just be the who cares place.
everyones talking about this now. i read this yesterday and thought it was kind of funny. wigger chick is hilariously angry at everyone. its absurd. it didnt even register in me that wigger is white nigger, but yeah, oh. i remember that term wigger from like 8th grade. i think i got called it because i wore baggy pants once. i don’t know, i don’t get worked up. i’m a white male nihilist i guess. i can respect it pisses people off though, but man, when it did get so political at htmlgiant. it used to just be the who cares place.
funny. not one person said that on any side of the issue. Except Chelsea tried to imply people were calling her a bigot, but she knew that was bullshit. Just trying to cover her ass.
funny. not one person said that on any side of the issue. Except Chelsea tried to imply people were calling her a bigot, but she knew that was bullshit. Just trying to cover her ass.
Gene, you make the same mistake Howard Dinkel makes. Black English is not about poverty or uneducatedness. Most everyone I know (Black folks, like myself) speaks some form of Black English. Not that they have to, they just do. It doesn’t make one more or less black. I’m just pointing out a fact of my existence. I’m a middle class dude with an MFA who grew up in the suburbs the son of an attorney and an administrative assistant with an undergraduate degree. Still, I’m most comfortable speaking Black English. Black English, a dialect recognized by many linguists has a lot in common with Southern English. There is more poverty in the South and among black people. This is probably where your confusion comes in.
Gene, you make the same mistake Howard Dinkel makes. Black English is not about poverty or uneducatedness. Most everyone I know (Black folks, like myself) speaks some form of Black English. Not that they have to, they just do. It doesn’t make one more or less black. I’m just pointing out a fact of my existence. I’m a middle class dude with an MFA who grew up in the suburbs the son of an attorney and an administrative assistant with an undergraduate degree. Still, I’m most comfortable speaking Black English. Black English, a dialect recognized by many linguists has a lot in common with Southern English. There is more poverty in the South and among black people. This is probably where your confusion comes in.
darby makes a good point. this is pretty clearly absurd. but people aren’t willing to see that for some reason.
darby makes a good point. this is pretty clearly absurd. but people aren’t willing to see that for some reason.
roxane – okay, maybe you didn’t mean this as a personal attack, but it seems like at least part of this is directed at me, and i’d like it if you could take the time to explain what you mean in reference to several points i made, which you put in one paragraph here, instead of just dismissing them as ‘crazy’ without further explanation, which is all you’ve done, here or elsewhere. you admit that you don’t ‘have some kind of magical understanding of blackness’ but your tone and perspective suggest that you do believe you are privy to certain information (or theory or whatever) that i don’t have access to or have not experienced because i’ve never been a minority (which actually isn’t true btw because i grew up in a predominantly hispanic area and now live in oakland where there literally is no majority). of course, you will apparently want to reject the idea that my personal experience can inform my opinion and yet you take the opportunity to cite examples of your own to prove yours.
actually, i agree with your objections to what i said, but you’re taking what i said out of context. the thing is, as unorganized as this comment stuff is, i approach this as a debate – because it’s not life, it’s the internet – and so, like a debate, i try on different hats in order to get at some kind of truth that i can’t see without trying on different p.o.v.’s.
it’s not that i think there is no difference between a redneck asshole and a progressive intellectual, i was just using the idea that everyone is a racist to make a point or at least to hint at a point – there are many levels to that idea and i think it sucks when people just want to read it at face value.
i also agree with you that ‘white guilt’ is a bad term and i tried to explain why i even brought it up in the first place. but you seem to suggest that you would rather it not exist, which seems equally naive to your characterization of the attempt to intellectualize that issue, even though it is something people intellectualize all the time in academia.
i thought about emailing you last night but i was tired. as i said, i respect your opinions and i want to hear more. but if you don’t want to talk about it because you think i’m ignorant (which you seem to think) that’s fine too. as you said before we can just agree to disagree. that’s okay.
roxane – okay, maybe you didn’t mean this as a personal attack, but it seems like at least part of this is directed at me, and i’d like it if you could take the time to explain what you mean in reference to several points i made, which you put in one paragraph here, instead of just dismissing them as ‘crazy’ without further explanation, which is all you’ve done, here or elsewhere. you admit that you don’t ‘have some kind of magical understanding of blackness’ but your tone and perspective suggest that you do believe you are privy to certain information (or theory or whatever) that i don’t have access to or have not experienced because i’ve never been a minority (which actually isn’t true btw because i grew up in a predominantly hispanic area and now live in oakland where there literally is no majority). of course, you will apparently want to reject the idea that my personal experience can inform my opinion and yet you take the opportunity to cite examples of your own to prove yours.
actually, i agree with your objections to what i said, but you’re taking what i said out of context. the thing is, as unorganized as this comment stuff is, i approach this as a debate – because it’s not life, it’s the internet – and so, like a debate, i try on different hats in order to get at some kind of truth that i can’t see without trying on different p.o.v.’s.
it’s not that i think there is no difference between a redneck asshole and a progressive intellectual, i was just using the idea that everyone is a racist to make a point or at least to hint at a point – there are many levels to that idea and i think it sucks when people just want to read it at face value.
i also agree with you that ‘white guilt’ is a bad term and i tried to explain why i even brought it up in the first place. but you seem to suggest that you would rather it not exist, which seems equally naive to your characterization of the attempt to intellectualize that issue, even though it is something people intellectualize all the time in academia.
i thought about emailing you last night but i was tired. as i said, i respect your opinions and i want to hear more. but if you don’t want to talk about it because you think i’m ignorant (which you seem to think) that’s fine too. as you said before we can just agree to disagree. that’s okay.
amy, today i saw a bumper sticker that said something like, ‘a book that deserves to be banned is a book that deserves to be read’ – not that i’m saying you want to ban this comic, but you did say you would take it down if you could, so you do seem to nurse some desire for dictatorial-style censorship control.
what’s the difference if censorship comes from the right or the left? the left will site pc, the right will site god.
if the madonna-whore complex pisses you off so much why don’t you vandalize the poster for the new almodovar film? i’m sure there are some hanging in the subway right now. post some snaps.
amy, today i saw a bumper sticker that said something like, ‘a book that deserves to be banned is a book that deserves to be read’ – not that i’m saying you want to ban this comic, but you did say you would take it down if you could, so you do seem to nurse some desire for dictatorial-style censorship control.
what’s the difference if censorship comes from the right or the left? the left will site pc, the right will site god.
if the madonna-whore complex pisses you off so much why don’t you vandalize the poster for the new almodovar film? i’m sure there are some hanging in the subway right now. post some snaps.
or else hug the poster, i don’t know how you feel about almodovar, maybe you love him, that would make more sense i guess – but i don’t know anything. also, there was and is no bait on my hook, but it may be a little rusty so i hope you’re up to date on your tetanus shots.
or else hug the poster, i don’t know how you feel about almodovar, maybe you love him, that would make more sense i guess – but i don’t know anything. also, there was and is no bait on my hook, but it may be a little rusty so i hope you’re up to date on your tetanus shots.
i’m really not following. what i meant by “i’ll take the bait” was that i would try to explain to you some of my disgust with this comic, at least the part that you would seem to accept coming from me, the gender part, since you were at least in a few comments disqualifying white people from feeling disgust about racism. so, i tried. why are you just trying to “zing” me instead of responding to the things i’m saying? do you not believe me, that i am bothered by the uncritical perpetuation of the madonna/whore complex? and do you not understand the distinction between feeling disgust for something and wanting on a gut level to destroy it, as opposed to officially sanctioned censorship? as i said below, on principle i wouldn’t want it to be unpublished or censored, which is why i didn’t ask anyone who could take it down to do so.
i’m really not following. what i meant by “i’ll take the bait” was that i would try to explain to you some of my disgust with this comic, at least the part that you would seem to accept coming from me, the gender part, since you were at least in a few comments disqualifying white people from feeling disgust about racism. so, i tried. why are you just trying to “zing” me instead of responding to the things i’m saying? do you not believe me, that i am bothered by the uncritical perpetuation of the madonna/whore complex? and do you not understand the distinction between feeling disgust for something and wanting on a gut level to destroy it, as opposed to officially sanctioned censorship? as i said below, on principle i wouldn’t want it to be unpublished or censored, which is why i didn’t ask anyone who could take it down to do so.
I don’t think you’re ignorant Reynard at all nor was I attacking you personally. We just disagree and that’s okay. I really wish I had the energy to talk about this more but I don’t. I can’t separate personal experience enough to be rational. I don’t find this interesting. I find it frustrating and sad. I find it just inexplicable that you would consider living in a predominantly Hispanic area and now Oakland as a badge of marginalization. That does not make you a minority. It makes you a member of the majority living in an area where you are not the majority. As long as you’re a white man, wherever you are in the world, you will always be a member of the majority. If you cannot understand that I don’t know what to say. We really just are on different sides of a huge divide and maybe I’m completely wrong and well, fine, I’m wrong. I may not have some kind of magical insight into blackness but when people look at me they don’t care where I’m from. They see me as a person of color. And that’s fine too. That’s life. And so yes, I do have some insight that you don’t.
And I can’t find any merit in the statement that everyone is racist because in order to be racist you have to be part of the majority and part of the dominant institutions that support oppression. People who are marginalized can be prejudiced but they cannot be racist. This is not to say that I’m downtrodden or that to be marginalized means that you don’t have privilege. I’m one of the luckiest people I know and I have disposable time to sit here chit chatting on the Internet but that privilege does not protect me from the effects of racism in any form or fashion. It just makes for a softer landing after a hard fall.
I don’t think you’re ignorant Reynard at all nor was I attacking you personally. We just disagree and that’s okay. I really wish I had the energy to talk about this more but I don’t. I can’t separate personal experience enough to be rational. I don’t find this interesting. I find it frustrating and sad. I find it just inexplicable that you would consider living in a predominantly Hispanic area and now Oakland as a badge of marginalization. That does not make you a minority. It makes you a member of the majority living in an area where you are not the majority. As long as you’re a white man, wherever you are in the world, you will always be a member of the majority. If you cannot understand that I don’t know what to say. We really just are on different sides of a huge divide and maybe I’m completely wrong and well, fine, I’m wrong. I may not have some kind of magical insight into blackness but when people look at me they don’t care where I’m from. They see me as a person of color. And that’s fine too. That’s life. And so yes, I do have some insight that you don’t.
And I can’t find any merit in the statement that everyone is racist because in order to be racist you have to be part of the majority and part of the dominant institutions that support oppression. People who are marginalized can be prejudiced but they cannot be racist. This is not to say that I’m downtrodden or that to be marginalized means that you don’t have privilege. I’m one of the luckiest people I know and I have disposable time to sit here chit chatting on the Internet but that privilege does not protect me from the effects of racism in any form or fashion. It just makes for a softer landing after a hard fall.
thanks roxane. i’m glad you don’t think i’m ignorant. it was just beginning to seem that way. i like what you said in your second paragraph. i understand more of what you meant before. i think the separation of racism and prejudice makes sense.
i do understand the idea that white men historically wield socioeconomic power and i understand that there are institutional forces at work that are beyond anyone’s control. maybe i take my own understanding of that situation for granted sometimes in favor of more controversial ideas. however, the idea that white people, even when placed in a minority position, are always in power, is not true in my experience. i think i have experienced a certain degree of prejudice on a personal level – granted, it’s typically lacking (or masking) the hate for laughter, but still, i think i can relate a little more than a lot of people, which is unfortunate for them, more than for me.
anyway, i don’t think of my experience as a ‘badge.’ however, it does inform my ideas, just as yours informs yours and that was my only point. i agree, it is a well-worn card and i wouldn’t have said it if i weren’t responding to it directly. it’s like the white guy that’s married to a black woman in bamboozled – i totally understand that idea. but i also think it’s somewhat lacking in the reality that people do gain a different perspective from their experiences with people of other races. seems like that’s how we learn to get along with one another.
thanks roxane. i’m glad you don’t think i’m ignorant. it was just beginning to seem that way. i like what you said in your second paragraph. i understand more of what you meant before. i think the separation of racism and prejudice makes sense.
i do understand the idea that white men historically wield socioeconomic power and i understand that there are institutional forces at work that are beyond anyone’s control. maybe i take my own understanding of that situation for granted sometimes in favor of more controversial ideas. however, the idea that white people, even when placed in a minority position, are always in power, is not true in my experience. i think i have experienced a certain degree of prejudice on a personal level – granted, it’s typically lacking (or masking) the hate for laughter, but still, i think i can relate a little more than a lot of people, which is unfortunate for them, more than for me.
anyway, i don’t think of my experience as a ‘badge.’ however, it does inform my ideas, just as yours informs yours and that was my only point. i agree, it is a well-worn card and i wouldn’t have said it if i weren’t responding to it directly. it’s like the white guy that’s married to a black woman in bamboozled – i totally understand that idea. but i also think it’s somewhat lacking in the reality that people do gain a different perspective from their experiences with people of other races. seems like that’s how we learn to get along with one another.
He started out as a straight up rapper, you know.
He started out as a straight up rapper, you know.
wish there were edits. glad you enjoyed the show due to your ability to be ‘above it all’
wish there were edits. glad you enjoyed the show due to your ability to be ‘above it all’
should the required reaction to absurdity be apathy?
should the required reaction to absurdity be apathy?
i believe that you are bothered by the madonna/whore complex – it’s a serious issue and i think i understand it. i was using almodovar as an example of someone who has drug that issue out into the light and maybe not actually said much of anything useful about it.
yes, on the surface level the comic strip is pretty much saying ‘moms can’t have sex cuz it’s dirty.’ but the comic is also totally absurd, and thus it could easily be read as lampooning the very idea of that. a direct reading of this comic is, i think, insufficient.
and okay, i do understand the difference between the personal desire to destroy art that you find offensive and officially sanctioned censorship; but they still come from the same insecurities and the same ‘i’m right, you’re wrong, there is no option’ attitude, so i was using a metaphor to convey my distaste for that opinion because it’s not something i wouldn’t do or even think. my mom is offended by nudes at museums because she thinks they’re grotesque – she doesn’t see it as being any different than when she found my porn stash in high school – and i think that’s ridiculous for the same reason.
i believe that you are bothered by the madonna/whore complex – it’s a serious issue and i think i understand it. i was using almodovar as an example of someone who has drug that issue out into the light and maybe not actually said much of anything useful about it.
yes, on the surface level the comic strip is pretty much saying ‘moms can’t have sex cuz it’s dirty.’ but the comic is also totally absurd, and thus it could easily be read as lampooning the very idea of that. a direct reading of this comic is, i think, insufficient.
and okay, i do understand the difference between the personal desire to destroy art that you find offensive and officially sanctioned censorship; but they still come from the same insecurities and the same ‘i’m right, you’re wrong, there is no option’ attitude, so i was using a metaphor to convey my distaste for that opinion because it’s not something i wouldn’t do or even think. my mom is offended by nudes at museums because she thinks they’re grotesque – she doesn’t see it as being any different than when she found my porn stash in high school – and i think that’s ridiculous for the same reason.
blake, i dont know if it is that people are unwilling to see it, as much as they saw something and felt moved in a particular way. and since this is an open comment forum they were then moved to voice their opinion of it. i think its fantastic. your site has become very popular and diversified beyond the vice magazine nihilistic who cares crowd. seems very positive to me. more voices. it was a bit incestuous before, repeating the same affirmations by the same small group of voices post after post. the comment thread of this post gave me a lot to think about and absorb. what more could you want with a website?
blake, i dont know if it is that people are unwilling to see it, as much as they saw something and felt moved in a particular way. and since this is an open comment forum they were then moved to voice their opinion of it. i think its fantastic. your site has become very popular and diversified beyond the vice magazine nihilistic who cares crowd. seems very positive to me. more voices. it was a bit incestuous before, repeating the same affirmations by the same small group of voices post after post. the comment thread of this post gave me a lot to think about and absorb. what more could you want with a website?
I like Kendra’s attitude about this.
I like Kendra’s attitude about this.
i really appreciate this comment thread, and all the sincere things people have said.
i really appreciate this comment thread, and all the sincere things people have said.
Really, I am of several minds about this comment thread. There were some good perspectives shared, but it feels like we all hopped into the sandbox threw some sand around and left the sand more messy than before. For all the perspectives shared–and there were a very wide range of them–in this conversation, as with so many conversations about race, there was an inability to step inside of the ‘other’ perspective (including me). Some people shut down immediately when they hear the R-word instead of opening up and allowing that conversation to take flight. That’s why I found Barack Obama’s race speech to be remarkable. It did, for me at least, what literature is supposed to do: take people outside of their narrow perspectives and dump them into another’s. For the first time I stepped into the point of view of a “racist” white person and Obama did a good job of sharing a black perspective. How we breach that perspective line is the struggle. I feel like I’ll be thinking about much of this conversation for a long while, but what I will do with those thoughts or what those thoughts will do to me, I don’t know.
Really, I am of several minds about this comment thread. There were some good perspectives shared, but it feels like we all hopped into the sandbox threw some sand around and left the sand more messy than before. For all the perspectives shared–and there were a very wide range of them–in this conversation, as with so many conversations about race, there was an inability to step inside of the ‘other’ perspective (including me). Some people shut down immediately when they hear the R-word instead of opening up and allowing that conversation to take flight. That’s why I found Barack Obama’s race speech to be remarkable. It did, for me at least, what literature is supposed to do: take people outside of their narrow perspectives and dump them into another’s. For the first time I stepped into the point of view of a “racist” white person and Obama did a good job of sharing a black perspective. How we breach that perspective line is the struggle. I feel like I’ll be thinking about much of this conversation for a long while, but what I will do with those thoughts or what those thoughts will do to me, I don’t know.
[…] to be alive in a time and place where people who can write so exquisitely exist. There has been a discussion about race at HTML Giant, one that is interesting, frustrating, painful, sad and useful, I think. I […]
i don’t know. i think i liked this site better before when it was more “incestuous.” at least people said some funny shit then. now it just feels like a bunch of over educated, pretentious people talking to hear themselves talk and sound smart. the people who would take down this post are probably the same people who wouldn’t go see tropic thunder because someone on npr told them it was mean to the “mentally impaired.”
i don’t know. i think i liked this site better before when it was more “incestuous.” at least people said some funny shit then. now it just feels like a bunch of over educated, pretentious people talking to hear themselves talk and sound smart. the people who would take down this post are probably the same people who wouldn’t go see tropic thunder because someone on npr told them it was mean to the “mentally impaired.”
blacks and whites and whites acting black and blacks acting white, and indians acting like self righteous academic upper middle class white homosexuals, its all so fucking played out.
wigger discussions, for me anyway, took place in middle school when we, meaning actual black and white kids, were actually dealing with the issues. to have this discussion now in our 20-40’s really makes me wonder what the fuck is wrong with you people.
blacks and whites and whites acting black and blacks acting white, and indians acting like self righteous academic upper middle class white homosexuals, its all so fucking played out.
wigger discussions, for me anyway, took place in middle school when we, meaning actual black and white kids, were actually dealing with the issues. to have this discussion now in our 20-40’s really makes me wonder what the fuck is wrong with you people.
I’m not saying that Black English is how all poor people speak, dude. Black English is a part of my English, and I’m white and well educated. I love rap music, and a person can only sing along for so long before it becomes a part of their actual language.
My point was that there are white people that speak the way the woman in the cartoon speaks, and it’s not because they are copying black people, it’s because they grew up in a neighborhood where people speak Black English.
To suggest that Black English is exclusive to black people anymore is silly. There are plenty of white people, at least in Houston, that speak Black English, and they don’t do it out of mockery.
I do think this cartoon is racist. The stereotypes and language are in-line with common racial stereotypes and language for blacks, and this coupled with the word “wigger” is what makes the strip racist, I understand.
I also think that people aren’t acknowledging that “wigger” is not some term Dinkel made-up, and that there are plenty of whites that speak in a similar way to the woman in the strip. It is not pure black-face, because the woman is not a stand-in for a black person, she actually exists.
White people that speak predominantly with Black English could be seen as mockery of black people, but I think that this too is a racist viewpoint. In my life I have heard both white and black people refer to such people as “wiggers” and it is always in a way that demeans people and gives them a less-than status based on race.
My original point was that the stereotypes that have been thrown upon blacks for so long can be, and have always been, applicable to the poor of all races. This does not excuse the racism of the strips, but it is a more interesting way to discuss them.
I’m not saying that Black English is how all poor people speak, dude. Black English is a part of my English, and I’m white and well educated. I love rap music, and a person can only sing along for so long before it becomes a part of their actual language.
My point was that there are white people that speak the way the woman in the cartoon speaks, and it’s not because they are copying black people, it’s because they grew up in a neighborhood where people speak Black English.
To suggest that Black English is exclusive to black people anymore is silly. There are plenty of white people, at least in Houston, that speak Black English, and they don’t do it out of mockery.
I do think this cartoon is racist. The stereotypes and language are in-line with common racial stereotypes and language for blacks, and this coupled with the word “wigger” is what makes the strip racist, I understand.
I also think that people aren’t acknowledging that “wigger” is not some term Dinkel made-up, and that there are plenty of whites that speak in a similar way to the woman in the strip. It is not pure black-face, because the woman is not a stand-in for a black person, she actually exists.
White people that speak predominantly with Black English could be seen as mockery of black people, but I think that this too is a racist viewpoint. In my life I have heard both white and black people refer to such people as “wiggers” and it is always in a way that demeans people and gives them a less-than status based on race.
My original point was that the stereotypes that have been thrown upon blacks for so long can be, and have always been, applicable to the poor of all races. This does not excuse the racism of the strips, but it is a more interesting way to discuss them.
haha, yea. no better way. anything i could say would be redundant anyway as it would echo mostly what you/blake argued.
haha, yea. no better way. anything i could say would be redundant anyway as it would echo mostly what you/blake argued.
Piety like this belongs in a monastery. Away from the world. Worshiping itself.
Piety like this belongs in a monastery. Away from the world. Worshiping itself.
still could have been helpful but i know what you mean. honestly, i don’t think there were enough comments on this post.
still could have been helpful but i know what you mean. honestly, i don’t think there were enough comments on this post.
OK. Good points, Gene. I wasn’t attempting to implying that black english is exclusive to Blacks. But I get your point now.
OK. Good points, Gene. I wasn’t attempting to implying that black english is exclusive to Blacks. But I get your point now.
i think the only people who would find this comic strip funny are the ones who have never been around people different than themselves and believe the stereotypes that they hear and see on tv.
i think the only people who would find this comic strip funny are the ones who have never been around people different than themselves and believe the stereotypes that they hear and see on tv.
This is funny. When I read the comics above, I laughed and thought: that one chick, in the comic, she’s stupid, this is hilarious. What a hilariously stupid chick. That was it. I didn’t care to think about racism. I thought, ha, what a damn stupid crazy girl for naming her kid Tupac. What a terrible mother. She can’t even hold down a fast food job. Look at her. Haha. And that was it.
Not everything has to be intellectualized.
But wow. Can characters or things just not be specifically retarded, absurd and hilarious? Where would comedy be if we couldn’t make fun of silly people sometimes? Or ourselves?
In other comics, in Garfield, John Arbuckle talked to his cat. Calvin talked to imaginary stuffed tiger Hobbes. Where’s the hate mail from the schizophrenics? From lonely losers with no friends? In my mind, they’re just as fictional and culturally relevant as some dumb girl with an attitude.
This is funny. When I read the comics above, I laughed and thought: that one chick, in the comic, she’s stupid, this is hilarious. What a hilariously stupid chick. That was it. I didn’t care to think about racism. I thought, ha, what a damn stupid crazy girl for naming her kid Tupac. What a terrible mother. She can’t even hold down a fast food job. Look at her. Haha. And that was it.
Not everything has to be intellectualized.
But wow. Can characters or things just not be specifically retarded, absurd and hilarious? Where would comedy be if we couldn’t make fun of silly people sometimes? Or ourselves?
In other comics, in Garfield, John Arbuckle talked to his cat. Calvin talked to imaginary stuffed tiger Hobbes. Where’s the hate mail from the schizophrenics? From lonely losers with no friends? In my mind, they’re just as fictional and culturally relevant as some dumb girl with an attitude.
and by “funny” i mean that they honestly believe that that is how “wiggers” act and that’s the reason why it’s funny. not for the reason that sabra said. there’s nothing wrong with her reason.
and by “funny” i mean that they honestly believe that that is how “wiggers” act and that’s the reason why it’s funny. not for the reason that sabra said. there’s nothing wrong with her reason.
ZZZZIP AGREES FOR MANY REASONS
THESE COMICS ARE AWFUL
THAT CROSSED OUT WORD BALLOON STEM SAYS EVERYTHING!!! ZZZIP GETS THAT ITS A LOOSE STYLE BUT THAT STEM HAS NO BUSINESS BEING THERE, JUST LOOKS LAZY, BECAUSE “DINKIE” DID NOT MAKE A THEME OF IT!!!!
ZZZZIPP LIKED THE JUMP BETWEEN THE CHOCOLATE BAR EATING PANELS THOUGH THE JOKE WAS SUPER WEAK!!
ZZZZIP AGREES FOR MANY REASONS
THESE COMICS ARE AWFUL
THAT CROSSED OUT WORD BALLOON STEM SAYS EVERYTHING!!! ZZZIP GETS THAT ITS A LOOSE STYLE BUT THAT STEM HAS NO BUSINESS BEING THERE, JUST LOOKS LAZY, BECAUSE “DINKIE” DID NOT MAKE A THEME OF IT!!!!
ZZZZIPP LIKED THE JUMP BETWEEN THE CHOCOLATE BAR EATING PANELS THOUGH THE JOKE WAS SUPER WEAK!!
If you took out all the dialogue and tried to sell that strip by its artistic merits, you would be broke. If you put the dialogue into a story, it wouldn’t exactly carry the same weight as say… Twain and his usage of southern dialect– far from it. So what you have here is a sup-par product that should remain in obscurity. It offends me with its mediocrity.
If you took out all the dialogue and tried to sell that strip by its artistic merits, you would be broke. If you put the dialogue into a story, it wouldn’t exactly carry the same weight as say… Twain and his usage of southern dialect– far from it. So what you have here is a sup-par product that should remain in obscurity. It offends me with its mediocrity.
I obviously meant “sub-par”
I obviously meant “sub-par”
[…] fact that Chelsea Martin is still on the roster, even though she hasn’t posted since the great Wiggergate […]
mommies 4 mommies 4 life 4 ever
[…] Martin used to write for this site, until she made the error of publishing Wigger Chick, about a white girl who “acts like a nigger,” though those are not her quotes, but, […]