How to Ruin a Child on the Possibilities of Literature Forever Without Really Trying
Meet Eric H. He’s 12 years old, and he just failed his poetry assignment. Why? Let’s consult THE POETRY RUBRIC.
Justin Taylor
-
Archives
- January 2023
- February 2022
- September 2021
- February 2021
- January 2021
- December 2020
- November 2020
- October 2020
- September 2020
- August 2020
- August 2017
- July 2017
- May 2017
- April 2017
- March 2017
- February 2017
- January 2017
- December 2016
- November 2016
- October 2016
- October 2014
- September 2014
- August 2014
- July 2014
- June 2014
- May 2014
- April 2014
- March 2014
- February 2014
- January 2014
- December 2013
- November 2013
- October 2013
- September 2013
- August 2013
- July 2013
- June 2013
- May 2013
- April 2013
- March 2013
- February 2013
- January 2013
- December 2012
- November 2012
- October 2012
- September 2012
- August 2012
- July 2012
- June 2012
- May 2012
- April 2012
- March 2012
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
-
Meta
he got 65/15 on poem 2?
6.5
HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA
my favorite: “So what?”
but this is horrible…
Justin–do you know what the poems were? I mean, it won’t make the evaluation any better, but I am curious.
Think of all those poems this class is producing with a forcibly inserted “So What?” explanation.
Like raisins in raisin bread. Yechhhhh
YESSSSSS
I use one of these in my fiction writing classes
START IN MIDDLE OF ACTION _____/2 points
SHOW DON’T TELL_____/3 points
FRESH PHRASES_____/4 points
QUIRKY CHARACTERS_____/3 points
NO VAMPIRES OR ZOMBIES _____/2 points
POV_____/2 points
OPEN WINDOW DON’T CLOSE DOOR_____/4 points
his poems really do need work.
really though, i never know how to grade poems or stories, but a rubric like this obviously seems like a bad way to do it. i had a prof once who used to score our stories, but that score had no bearing on our grade, it was just his opinion of the piece. which i found helpful. this rubric-grade brings up the problem of how to grade a creative writing workshop. i struggled with that the first year i did it, but came to the conclusion that i would grade people’s comments on and write-ups of stories, etc, not the stories themselves. do others “grade” stories, poems?
Also, for what it’s worth, the math doesn’t add up. He should have a 61.
UNNECESSARY PROFANITY _____/3 points
AWKWARD SEXUAL TENSION _____/69 points
why do instructors try to quantify these things? i feel its bad all around. a freshman workshop instructor asked the class, on our ‘info sheets,’ to ‘rate’ ourselves as such:
1-completely unskilled, 5-expert
Dialogue ____
Plot ____
Climax ___
Characterization ___
Description ___
Setting ____
i dont think anyone in the class answered below a 3, and i dont doubt some of the guys filled out 5 for ‘climax’ for shits n giggles.
man, i like this. my only worry is that it feels a little driven toward a particular aesthetic, especially maybe “quirky characters” and “fresh phrases.” but wow, “open window don’t close door,” yes on that.
NO VAMPIRES OR ZOMBIES _____/2 points
Undeadphobic.
You lost 1 point for ripping off Raymond Carver
get 2 points for ripping of Denis Johnson
3 points for ripping off George Saunders
and 5 points if you rip off Flannery O’Connor.
This instructor is a poet, man, what does math have to do with it?
Lung fish stare ____ 3 points
Hernial stumble _____2 points
Domestic Arts ______ -2 points
Fiber Optic Scanning _____ (variable)
Sun Screen Protection Variant _____ (2 points)
Awfullness _________ (1 point)
Thematic Cigarettes ______ (2 points)
Sasha Gray _______ (4 points)
Instructor Toxicity ____ (12 points)
Poetry Killing Strategy ____ (57 points)
Terrible typing above.
sort of curious why all poem titles got 1/2 except poem 5 (2/2).
how the fuck do you only get 50% on title?
I hope this kid gave this instructor the finger and said, “What idea is in this thing?”
YES! I want to send a photo of my middle finger to this teacher.
boom
Ahh the mighty rubric. Using rubrics is such a touchy thing. On the one hand, how ever do you quantitatively assess creative writing or any writing for that matter? Is there a key for this rubric indicating what full credit versus partial credit versus no credit actually means? Wouldn’t a narrative assessment be more useful? On the other hand, at my current institution, which is a technological university, my students get PISSED when you don’t use a rubric. They want to know the value of things and get very frustrated by qualitative assessment. I don’t believe that we have to treat our students as consumers, catering to their every desire but I have stopped fighting the rubric.
Still, a rubric for a poem? In the 7th grade? That’s outrageous.
Wow. The “things not ideas” bit seems particularly venomous.
When I teach (if ever), I don’t think I’ll “grade” poems. Just turn them in, and turn in a revised portfolio at the end. It’s much easer to grade for stuff like in-class participation, written responses, and craft essays.
And honestly, if I’m teaching a poetry workshop, there’s a certain extent wherein I wouldn’t want my students obsessing about their grade. Somehow it’d be nice to send the message: If you participate and turn in shit, great, A, or at worst A-. But if you don’t engage in workshop, the grade lowers. Grade-obsession only turns on the “play the prof like a flute until he gives you an A” side of students, which means conservative students who won’t take risks either in their poems or w/in their criticism.
Not sure if any of that is very practical, however.
And why the -2 at the end?
And Justin, where’d you get this?
Yes, yes! I really think lengthy typed-out narrative assessments are the best way to go.
lol @ Poetry Killing Strategy ____ (57 points)
Unintentional Unveiling of Secret Complex ____ (3 points)
“My Good Poem”
Q: Why the (-2) at the end?
A: Lip.
my pet toad
my toad is so cool
because i found him
in a place only i know
people should care
about my toad, because
he is wet, like a towel
in conclusion, this poem
about frogs is great, and
please teacher, stop it
Ever breathe the air at the NCTE convention?
I go back and forth on how I’ll manage assessment in my first CW course next semester. Right now I’m imagining just making them read and write tons and tons, and mostly grading them on their completion of my stupidly intense course, with maybe a third of the grade (or maybe more) being based on their citizenship in relation to their fellow students.
Well, fiction workshops are, I think, a lot trickier. With poetry you can take a short lyric and get a pretty intense in-class craft meditation going.
I’m tossing this back and forth in my head, and I have no idea what I would do with fiction. Argh, this is actually hurting my head; I keep thinking I maybe have an idea of something I would maybe do, but then another part of me interdicts. Prose workshops can be incredibly tricky.
How would you distribute the workshop-sessions?
I think the main function of grades w/r/t creative writing at most places is as a stick with which to beat people who don’t bother to go through the motions of doing the work. If you graded these assignments in relation to some kind of model competent text, or to some subjective idea of mastery, or to the ideal of “art,” nobody would likely get better than a C, which would cause administrative and possibly career-related problems for the teacher. I wish the courses would be graded instead as credit/no credit, and that the evaluations would be narrative instead of letter-based. Because the fact of the matter is, if you’re using the grade as a stick, then those who are motivated by the stick will still only do what they have to do to get an A, and that’s not likely to produce writers. Students will never be good writers unless they are self-motivated, willing to fail and fail and fail, and willing to read their brains out. Those are lifelong habits, not semester goals.
I got to say those are decent slam scores. He’d probably get to the semi’s
I don’t think a rubric for a poem is outrageous at all. Keep in mind this is a 7th grader in an (presumably) ELA class. You tell your students to write a poem for an assignment using the concepts they learned (stanza breaks, line breaks, metaphors, etc.) and some of them may do it but without any sort of guidelines or rubric they won’t know what to do or won’t do it at all. Then when it comes to grading–do you give the student with no title who just wrote a single word on a piece of paper the same grade as another student who wrote a sestina? Do you just give everyone an “A” for effort? Obviously, you can’t, because for the rest of the year the students would know then not to do anything and they’d still get a decent grade. Not to mention that you’re going to have the administration and parents on your back wondering what your system was for grading.
While I do think some parts of this rubric are a little weird (like what exactly “so what” means) I do think a rubric of some sort is necessary.
fuck yeah.
he got 65/15 on poem 2?
6.5
but this is horrible…
Justin–do you know what the poems were? I mean, it won’t make the evaluation any better, but I am curious.
Think of all those poems this class is producing with a forcibly inserted “So What?” explanation.
Like raisins in raisin bread. Yechhhhh
A great young beginning for the cliche checklisted MFA diarrhea dirtying the bookshelves. The death of joy in literature.
YESSSSSS
We’re not doing workshop, actually — it’s an intro course, so mainly they’ll read, write, and share work with each other. Some people do workshop for intro (maybe most) here but I think it’s a waste of time at first. Dan Barden thought it was a waste in general; I don’t agree with him strictly but for undergrads it does seem more appropriate much later in the degree than we did it at Butler.
I use one of these in my fiction writing classes
START IN MIDDLE OF ACTION _____/2 points
SHOW DON’T TELL_____/3 points
FRESH PHRASES_____/4 points
QUIRKY CHARACTERS_____/3 points
NO VAMPIRES OR ZOMBIES _____/2 points
POV_____/2 points
OPEN WINDOW DON’T CLOSE DOOR_____/4 points
On the contrary — a great employment opportunity for anyone in the process of finding out what the MFA credential is good for.
his poems really do need work.
really though, i never know how to grade poems or stories, but a rubric like this obviously seems like a bad way to do it. i had a prof once who used to score our stories, but that score had no bearing on our grade, it was just his opinion of the piece. which i found helpful. this rubric-grade brings up the problem of how to grade a creative writing workshop. i struggled with that the first year i did it, but came to the conclusion that i would grade people’s comments on and write-ups of stories, etc, not the stories themselves. do others “grade” stories, poems?
mfa in bashing mfas
Also, for what it’s worth, the math doesn’t add up. He should have a 61.
why do instructors try to quantify these things? i feel its bad all around. a freshman workshop instructor asked the class, on our ‘info sheets,’ to ‘rate’ ourselves as such:
1-completely unskilled, 5-expert
Dialogue ____
Plot ____
Climax ___
Characterization ___
Description ___
Setting ____
i dont think anyone in the class answered below a 3, and i dont doubt some of the guys filled out 5 for ‘climax’ for shits n giggles.
man, i like this. my only worry is that it feels a little driven toward a particular aesthetic, especially maybe “quirky characters” and “fresh phrases.” but wow, “open window don’t close door,” yes on that.
NO VAMPIRES OR ZOMBIES _____/2 points
Undeadphobic.
I teach 4th & 5th graders poetry and never provide them with a rubric. Children of that age are poets by nature. There is no need to bring a grading system along with it.
You lost 1 point for ripping off Raymond Carver
get 2 points for ripping of Denis Johnson
3 points for ripping off George Saunders
and 5 points if you rip off Flannery O’Connor.
This instructor is a poet, man, what does math have to do with it?
sort of curious why all poem titles got 1/2 except poem 5 (2/2).
how the fuck do you only get 50% on title?
I hope this kid gave this instructor the finger and said, “What idea is in this thing?”
lol. it does get tiresome, all the mfa bashing.
YES! I want to send a photo of my middle finger to this teacher.
boom
Ahh the mighty rubric. Using rubrics is such a touchy thing. On the one hand, how ever do you quantitatively assess creative writing or any writing for that matter? Is there a key for this rubric indicating what full credit versus partial credit versus no credit actually means? Wouldn’t a narrative assessment be more useful? On the other hand, at my current institution, which is a technological university, my students get PISSED when you don’t use a rubric. They want to know the value of things and get very frustrated by qualitative assessment. I don’t believe that we have to treat our students as consumers, catering to their every desire but I have stopped fighting the rubric.
Still, a rubric for a poem? In the 7th grade? That’s outrageous.
Wow. The “things not ideas” bit seems particularly venomous.
When I teach (if ever), I don’t think I’ll “grade” poems. Just turn them in, and turn in a revised portfolio at the end. It’s much easer to grade for stuff like in-class participation, written responses, and craft essays.
And honestly, if I’m teaching a poetry workshop, there’s a certain extent wherein I wouldn’t want my students obsessing about their grade. Somehow it’d be nice to send the message: If you participate and turn in shit, great, A, or at worst A-. But if you don’t engage in workshop, the grade lowers. Grade-obsession only turns on the “play the prof like a flute until he gives you an A” side of students, which means conservative students who won’t take risks either in their poems or w/in their criticism.
Not sure if any of that is very practical, however.
And why the -2 at the end?
And Justin, where’d you get this?
Yes, yes! I really think lengthy typed-out narrative assessments are the best way to go.
After the Title
After the title
there’s not much more.
The stanzas break,
and lines fall apart
to the concluding
so what?
“…the white chickens…
a red wheel barrow…”
“Not Ideas about the Thing
but the Thing Itself”
toward a poem total.
The best method I’ve seen for the teaching of poetry to children is Kenneth Koch’s “Rose, where did you get that red?” http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/17152
that koch thing is great, thanks.
what a slacker
Ever breathe the air at the NCTE convention?
I go back and forth on how I’ll manage assessment in my first CW course next semester. Right now I’m imagining just making them read and write tons and tons, and mostly grading them on their completion of my stupidly intense course, with maybe a third of the grade (or maybe more) being based on their citizenship in relation to their fellow students.
Well, fiction workshops are, I think, a lot trickier. With poetry you can take a short lyric and get a pretty intense in-class craft meditation going.
I’m tossing this back and forth in my head, and I have no idea what I would do with fiction. Argh, this is actually hurting my head; I keep thinking I maybe have an idea of something I would maybe do, but then another part of me interdicts. Prose workshops can be incredibly tricky.
How would you distribute the workshop-sessions?
I think the main function of grades w/r/t creative writing at most places is as a stick with which to beat people who don’t bother to go through the motions of doing the work. If you graded these assignments in relation to some kind of model competent text, or to some subjective idea of mastery, or to the ideal of “art,” nobody would likely get better than a C, which would cause administrative and possibly career-related problems for the teacher. I wish the courses would be graded instead as credit/no credit, and that the evaluations would be narrative instead of letter-based. Because the fact of the matter is, if you’re using the grade as a stick, then those who are motivated by the stick will still only do what they have to do to get an A, and that’s not likely to produce writers. Students will never be good writers unless they are self-motivated, willing to fail and fail and fail, and willing to read their brains out. Those are lifelong habits, not semester goals.
I got to say those are decent slam scores. He’d probably get to the semi’s
I don’t think a rubric for a poem is outrageous at all. Keep in mind this is a 7th grader in an (presumably) ELA class. You tell your students to write a poem for an assignment using the concepts they learned (stanza breaks, line breaks, metaphors, etc.) and some of them may do it but without any sort of guidelines or rubric they won’t know what to do or won’t do it at all. Then when it comes to grading–do you give the student with no title who just wrote a single word on a piece of paper the same grade as another student who wrote a sestina? Do you just give everyone an “A” for effort? Obviously, you can’t, because for the rest of the year the students would know then not to do anything and they’d still get a decent grade. Not to mention that you’re going to have the administration and parents on your back wondering what your system was for grading.
While I do think some parts of this rubric are a little weird (like what exactly “so what” means) I do think a rubric of some sort is necessary.
fuck yeah.
A great young beginning for the cliche checklisted MFA diarrhea dirtying the bookshelves. The death of joy in literature.
We’re not doing workshop, actually — it’s an intro course, so mainly they’ll read, write, and share work with each other. Some people do workshop for intro (maybe most) here but I think it’s a waste of time at first. Dan Barden thought it was a waste in general; I don’t agree with him strictly but for undergrads it does seem more appropriate much later in the degree than we did it at Butler.
On the contrary — a great employment opportunity for anyone in the process of finding out what the MFA credential is good for.
mfa in bashing mfas
I teach 4th & 5th graders poetry and never provide them with a rubric. Children of that age are poets by nature. There is no need to bring a grading system along with it.
lol. it does get tiresome, all the mfa bashing.
After the Title
After the title
there’s not much more.
The stanzas break,
and lines fall apart
to the concluding
so what?
“…the white chickens…
a red wheel barrow…”
“Not Ideas about the Thing
but the Thing Itself”
toward a poem total.
The best method I’ve seen for the teaching of poetry to children is Kenneth Koch’s “Rose, where did you get that red?” http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/17152
that koch thing is great, thanks.
what a slacker
Speaking as an instructor (although not one who goes this overboard) . . . state and federal requirements call for a rubric that can be backed up in case a student challenges a grade. Plus, this stuff comes up on reviews for promotion, pay bonuses, and potential termination. Therefore, the qualitative must be quantified.
This is what happens when politicians and voters with no teaching experience, not teachers/educators, determine what school requirements and evaluation systems are.
Speaking as an instructor (although not one who goes this overboard) . . . state and federal requirements call for a rubric that can be backed up in case a student challenges a grade. Plus, this stuff comes up on reviews for promotion, pay bonuses, and potential termination. Therefore, the qualitative must be quantified.
This is what happens when politicians and voters with no teaching experience, not teachers/educators, determine what school requirements and evaluation systems are.
Also, Teachers and Writers.
the teacher needs to be smacked with a long rubric !
Also, Teachers and Writers.
the teacher needs to be smacked with a long rubric !
The student did not fail, the teacher did!
Besides the poetry evaluation being bogus, his/her math is unacceptable. The student scored 63/90, not 53. Before the b.s -2 points, the score is 70% (that’s a C in my book)
My own poetry drafts would fail by this rubric!! Art is human and therefore, we can strive for perfection, but it is an ongoing process. Yes, the rubric categories are important concepts in poetic practice. But, what does the quantification system even mean? And, by what bias is the evaluator giving this poor 12-year-old poet a “1” for title?
The student did not fail, the teacher did!
Besides the poetry evaluation being bogus, his/her math is unacceptable. The student scored 63/90, not 53. Before the b.s -2 points, the score is 70% (that’s a C in my book)
My own poetry drafts would fail by this rubric!! Art is human and therefore, we can strive for perfection, but it is an ongoing process. Yes, the rubric categories are important concepts in poetic practice. But, what does the quantification system even mean? And, by what bias is the evaluator giving this poor 12-year-old poet a “1” for title?
[…] Wife of Bath, Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams HTMLGIANT recently posted an interesting poetry rubric, evaluative criteria for students writing poems. One would think forcing a student to write a poem […]
Exactly. (And I think ‘so what’ means “So why does this poem matter? Why are you bothering to write this down? Is there something in it that makes meaning?”)
Exactly. (And I think ‘so what’ means “So why does this poem matter? Why are you bothering to write this down? Is there something in it that makes meaning?”)
Heh
Heh
It’s true, but for this age/skill level, is it a bad lesson? That’s the question to me. People are talking about this from an absolutist position–you can’t grade poetry! (well, actually, we do it all the time, just not with numbers) everyone’s a special poetry creation allllll on their lonesome! etc. But I’ll bet you, of the people from this class who go on to do poetry later in their lives, and perhaps even now, you’ll have a number who will be paying attention to craft regardless of how they feel about the way their poems were graded here.
It’s true, but for this age/skill level, is it a bad lesson? That’s the question to me. People are talking about this from an absolutist position–you can’t grade poetry! (well, actually, we do it all the time, just not with numbers) everyone’s a special poetry creation allllll on their lonesome! etc. But I’ll bet you, of the people from this class who go on to do poetry later in their lives, and perhaps even now, you’ll have a number who will be paying attention to craft regardless of how they feel about the way their poems were graded here.
[…] The Poetry Rubric Posted on May 21, 2010 by teachingcreativewriting Meet Eric H. He’s 12 years old, and he just failed his poetry assignment. Why? Let’s consult THE POETRY RUBRIC. […]
Most teachers at this level are not readers outside of the material they teach. Very few of them write poetry or have an interest in doing that. They take the easy way – count the syllables – make it fit the box. You have to give kids the freedom to write outside of the box. This why Kenneth Koch’s books on teaching great literature as a way to teaching creative writing works so well. Ron Padgett also has some great methods for teaching.
Most teachers at this level are not readers outside of the material they teach. Very few of them write poetry or have an interest in doing that. They take the easy way – count the syllables – make it fit the box. You have to give kids the freedom to write outside of the box. This why Kenneth Koch’s books on teaching great literature as a way to teaching creative writing works so well. Ron Padgett also has some great methods for teaching.
I remember my high school having really rigorous rubrics that had primarily qualitative vectors but structured in tables with categories like unsatisfactory, satisfactory, very satisfactory, so still attached to percentages for grading (our report cards for every class included a letter grade as well as narrative comments and itemized survey-style w/ check marks-type info in a number of categories like “completes assignments on time,” etc.) I remember a participation rubric (I think it was actually called “socratic seminar” with a whole lengthy explanation of what that term meant) with super-detailed explanation of what each level of participation, from unsatisfactory to very satisfactory (or whatever they called it) looked like.
I remember my high school having really rigorous rubrics that had primarily qualitative vectors but structured in tables with categories like unsatisfactory, satisfactory, very satisfactory, so still attached to percentages for grading (our report cards for every class included a letter grade as well as narrative comments and itemized survey-style w/ check marks-type info in a number of categories like “completes assignments on time,” etc.) I remember a participation rubric (I think it was actually called “socratic seminar” with a whole lengthy explanation of what that term meant) with super-detailed explanation of what each level of participation, from unsatisfactory to very satisfactory (or whatever they called it) looked like.
This isn’t a rubric. This is a list with points. Rubrics have a descriptions of acheivement at each level, so that students can assess themselves and multiple teachers would score the student at the same level. Rubrics can assess creative writing; editor’s do it all the time. Creative writing has skills inherent in it: Show, Not Tell, Characterization, Plot and Conflict, Sentance Fluency, etc. Each of those can be described in a rubric. Teachers use rubrics to communicate expectations and levels of those skills with students and with each other, to create guaranteed and viable curriculum. Good rubrics inpsire students. Lists with points do not.
think i will get 90 points very easy
[…] A blog post on why you shouldn’t use a poetry rubric. […]