July 2nd, 2010 / 3:08 pm
Uncategorized
Matthew Simmons
Uncategorized
Tin House
If you want to submit to Tin House, you’ll need to send a receipt proving that you bought a book in a bookstore. What do you think?
Tags: Tin House
100% in favor.
Dumb, condescending.
i get it
meh. ridiculous, but i also kind of think it’s hilarious. so like 53% in favor, maybe.
better than classic submission fee, 2nd condescending.
seconding “condescending” and tired of people thinking haiku is funny
i dont think this is real. seems too jokey.
agreed, Amelia
http://www.tinhouse.com/mag/mag_news.htm
Good thing I keep my old receipts.
agreed on haikus, actually. didn’t read that part.
if its real i’ll agree with condescending. it wouldnt bother me so much if that explanation why thing wasnt there. if i was th idve just said provide a receipt or dont submit. demanding an excuse triggers something over the line. like its not enough that you dont support the same cause that i do, but i expect an explanation as to why?
i would be more likely to support something like provide a receipt from a donation you made to a charity of your choosing.
I’m for it. Especially after having worked for a lit mag. And if you only submit to Tin House, say, twice a year, then that’s only 2 books.
Just gives Tin House another way to judge writers outside of their submissions. Now you can get rejected because of where you shop, or what you bought.
Can I send in my library card?
I think it’s ridiculous and offensive. Writers are readers. This is well established. That’s like asking a drug addict to bring a receipt for their last score before selling them more heroin.
This is stupid. But if it is any book at any bookstore, it’s not really a big deal. I’m just against red tape in general…
it’s really hard to get a reciept from a dealer; a bookstore, not so much. As for Tin House, sure, whatever.
yeah i keep thinking, can i buy a book at borders? kind of defeats the spirit of the thing.
i would never submit to tin house anyway, but if i did, for me to buy a book at a bookstore that wasnt borders or b&n that actually carried a book that i want to read, id have to drive about 2 and a half hours away, which im not going to do, but now if i still want to submit i have to explain that to them? fuck them. is it okay that i dont spend the extra gas money and a saturday afternoon to try to buy a book? like is that okay with you tin house??
li ke i s
t h a t ok ay
fuc khe ad
Yes. It’s idiotic.
Well, you get your hands on a book without buying it, e.g. a library.
CAN get
Will receipts be shredded with manuscripts, or separately?
Anyone submitting to Uncanny Valley a manuscript accompanied by a receipt showing five hundred dollars spent on pornography will be automatically accepted.
As a library worker, I second the library card. If you can’t afford a book your local library is your best option. So, fie on Tin House.
I will get right on that.
Anyone submitting a manuscript accompanied by a receipt showing the purchase of two thousand dollars worth of anal lubricant will be automatically accepted.
Anyone submitting a manuscript accompanied by a certificate of third place or better in a hot dog eating contest will be automatically accepted.
Certificate may be photo-copied, but not digitally scanned.
isnt it better to buy a book directly from an independent publisher than from a bookstore? on how many fronts are writers expected to support the book industry?
See that you do. Uncanny Valley can’t associate itself with writers who don’t financially support the Fucking Arts.
why would anybody want to be in a magazine they don’t care enough about to buy a copy and read?
for me, its cause i want to be famous.
quit stealing from mah brains darby
I was a reader/volunteer for Tin House a few years ago and am only recently getting over how false, lousy and ridden with middle-brow elitism their entire organization is..
Imagine a wax apple that insists it’s a real apple because it has none of the visible flaws that real apples have. Though it turns out it’s still real enough to be rotten once you bite into it.
Sure, you read, but I guarantee 50% of the whiners here haven’t purchased a book at an actual bookstore in over 6 months. Fess up!
cant stop. yah brains uh tasty.
Some of us live in towns where there are no actual bookstores but I buy books almost every day online, from big outlets and small. This requirement largely excludes people who live in rural areas. The ability to buy a book in a store is not that easy for everyone.
I wonder what purchase might improve your odds. If you buy a Tin House book, would that be viewed favorably? Or would they think it too servile? A Tin House book from an independent bookstore, or a B&N purchase? Or would they like Powell’s better – because of the Portland thing? Would a novel set in the City of Roses be going too far? Something by a Pacific Northwest writer? Or should you go the nonfiction route? Or is that too obvious? Pay in cash? Debit? Credit? Cash wouldn’t have your name on the receipt but a cc bill might. If you pay with cc will they think you have a lot of consumer debt, i.e. you’re desperate to sell something, anything? Scrap the Tin House Books purchase and buy a book published by a big commercial publisher? You’re ambitious. Or maybe you’re artistic, principled. Maybe an indie? But not a competitor. A lowly indie. Something obscure. Something they’d need to look up. But would they think you’re a lit snob? So many questions….
Defend your position.
Ouch. Maybe I can do a retroactive purchase after they accept my story and pay me? Because my bank account balance is about 0 right now. As soon as I get some money though, I’m buying books. I’ve got a list.
Roxane, that’s a good point. When I lived in PA last year, there wasn’t a bookstore of any kind for many miles. But I would imagine it would be okay to buy a book from a bookstore online, no?
Doesn’t seem that way. But I’m sure all the submitters will have a great time working it out!
Made a longer list. Didn’t want to flood the comments: http://www.uncannyvalleymag.com/2010/07/addendum-to-guidelines.html
These are real. Think of this as an opportunity to stock up on anal lube.
A buy a couple of new books (hardcover, har-umph) every month… erm, who are “Tin House”? Indie-bluegrass from Chicago? Wasn’t Meghan McCain in their video?
(Jesus Fucking Christ) ” I buy…”
no its not okay. you have to buy a book at a physical bookstore. its up to you to find one. otherwise, you must send in a reason why you failed to find a physical bookstore. its up to you. together we’ll save these bookstores! good luck everyone!
Garett Strickland:
Explain yourself!
Can’t just drop a bombshell like that with no details. I AM INTRIGUED!
I smell a memoir proposal
100% in favor.
Dumb, condescending.
Tin House is all about playing it safe: only publishing persons like, say, Ben Marcus, once it’s already been established that the general public approves. Writers published by small and independent presses, from what I could tell, were generally looked down upon or dismissed completely by the staff — mostly because they can’t be bothered by anything they’ve not heard much about, hasn’t been approved by hype-machine reviews, etc. Anything at all challenging was deemed similarly unworthy of attention.
They have their particular thing they favor: a kind of haughty prose-style willing to say it doesn’t take itself too seriously, even if that’s a lie. That same funny/sad thing we’ve seen for years now. Phrases well-turned and unique but nonetheless *completely* relatable.
Not to mention their summer workshops mostly cater to bored, middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write! Good. Exactly what we need. More books about upper-class alienation, unappreciative spouses, and your dog.
do amazon receipts count?
i get it
meh. ridiculous, but i also kind of think it’s hilarious. so like 53% in favor, maybe.
better than classic submission fee, 2nd condescending.
seconding “condescending” and tired of people thinking haiku is funny
i dont think this is real. seems too jokey.
agreed, Amelia
http://www.tinhouse.com/mag/mag_news.htm
Good thing I keep my old receipts.
agreed on haikus, actually. didn’t read that part.
Wow. I completely agree with everyone who says this is condescending. And thank you Roxane for bringing up a good point: a lot of people live in areas where bookstores are simply inaccessible, i.e. dozens of miles away or more. Asking for an explanation takes this from being condescending to just ridiculous. Tin House is showing its ass to be both entitled and oblivious.
if its real i’ll agree with condescending. it wouldnt bother me so much if that explanation why thing wasnt there. if i was th idve just said provide a receipt or dont submit. demanding an excuse triggers something over the line. like its not enough that you dont support the same cause that i do, but i expect an explanation as to why?
i would be more likely to support something like provide a receipt from a donation you made to a charity of your choosing.
I’m for it. Especially after having worked for a lit mag. And if you only submit to Tin House, say, twice a year, then that’s only 2 books.
Just gives Tin House another way to judge writers outside of their submissions. Now you can get rejected because of where you shop, or what you bought.
Can I send in my library card?
I think it’s ridiculous and offensive. Writers are readers. This is well established. That’s like asking a drug addict to bring a receipt for their last score before selling them more heroin.
“Not to mention their summer workshops mostly cater to bored, middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write!”
wow, talk about condescending
not to mention sexist
This is stupid. But if it is any book at any bookstore, it’s not really a big deal. I’m just against red tape in general…
it’s really hard to get a reciept from a dealer; a bookstore, not so much. As for Tin House, sure, whatever.
yeah i keep thinking, can i buy a book at borders? kind of defeats the spirit of the thing.
i would never submit to tin house anyway, but if i did, for me to buy a book at a bookstore that wasnt borders or b&n that actually carried a book that i want to read, id have to drive about 2 and a half hours away, which im not going to do, but now if i still want to submit i have to explain that to them? fuck them. is it okay that i dont spend the extra gas money and a saturday afternoon to try to buy a book? like is that okay with you tin house??
li ke i s
t h a t ok ay
fuc khe ad
Yes. It’s idiotic.
Well, you get your hands on a book without buying it, e.g. a library.
CAN get
Will receipts be shredded with manuscripts, or separately?
Anyone submitting to Uncanny Valley a manuscript accompanied by a receipt showing five hundred dollars spent on pornography will be automatically accepted.
As a library worker, I second the library card. If you can’t afford a book your local library is your best option. So, fie on Tin House.
I will get right on that.
Anyone submitting a manuscript accompanied by a receipt showing the purchase of two thousand dollars worth of anal lubricant will be automatically accepted.
Anyone submitting a manuscript accompanied by a certificate of third place or better in a hot dog eating contest will be automatically accepted.
Certificate may be photo-copied, but not digitally scanned.
isnt it better to buy a book directly from an independent publisher than from a bookstore? on how many fronts are writers expected to support the book industry?
See that you do. Uncanny Valley can’t associate itself with writers who don’t financially support the Fucking Arts.
why would anybody want to be in a magazine they don’t care enough about to buy a copy and read?
for me, its cause i want to be famous.
quit stealing from mah brains darby
Sure, you read, but I guarantee 50% of the whiners here haven’t purchased a book at an actual bookstore in over 6 months. Fess up!
cant stop. yah brains uh tasty.
Some of us live in towns where there are no actual bookstores but I buy books almost every day online, from big outlets and small. This requirement largely excludes people who live in rural areas. The ability to buy a book in a store is not that easy for everyone.
So you liked Ben Marcus before they did?
I wonder what purchase might improve your odds. If you buy a Tin House book, would that be viewed favorably? Or would they think it too servile? A Tin House book from an independent bookstore, or a B&N purchase? Or would they like Powell’s better – because of the Portland thing? Would a novel set in the City of Roses be going too far? Something by a Pacific Northwest writer? Or should you go the nonfiction route? Or is that too obvious? Pay in cash? Debit? Credit? Cash wouldn’t have your name on the receipt but a cc bill might. If you pay with cc will they think you have a lot of consumer debt, i.e. you’re desperate to sell something, anything? Scrap the Tin House Books purchase and buy a book published by a big commercial publisher? You’re ambitious. Or maybe you’re artistic, principled. Maybe an indie? But not a competitor. A lowly indie. Something obscure. Something they’d need to look up. But would they think you’re a lit snob? So many questions….
Sorry, I’m not saying what they’re doing is awesome or revolutionary, but it hardly seems worthy of all the venom. At least they’re offering to read unagented writers; not every press does (I wish more would). Considering how easy the policy is to get around, I’m guessing the issue has more to do with not liking tinhouse. Is that part of it?
Defend your position.
Ouch. Maybe I can do a retroactive purchase after they accept my story and pay me? Because my bank account balance is about 0 right now. As soon as I get some money though, I’m buying books. I’ve got a list.
Roxane, that’s a good point. When I lived in PA last year, there wasn’t a bookstore of any kind for many miles. But I would imagine it would be okay to buy a book from a bookstore online, no?
Doesn’t seem that way. But I’m sure all the submitters will have a great time working it out!
Made a longer list. Didn’t want to flood the comments: http://www.uncannyvalleymag.com/2010/07/addendum-to-guidelines.html
These are real. Think of this as an opportunity to stock up on anal lube.
I had just been wondering if Tin House would accept receipts from adult bookstores…
A buy a couple of new books (hardcover, har-umph) every month… erm, who are “Tin House”? Indie-bluegrass from Chicago? Wasn’t Meghan McCain in their video?
(Jesus Fucking Christ) ” I buy…”
I like Tin House a lot, most of the time. I just don’t like this policy. Decent writers read. They buy books. They don’t need to be told to. If it were a matter of just needing another hoop to jump through they could make it less of a hassle — who wants to scan a receipt and all that just to make a submission? If you’re a decent writer, then they can safely assume you bought a book in the last year or whatever. And if you’re not, you didn’t have a chance anyway.
And the idea that anyone genuinely impoverished enough that they don’t have the money for a book should have to explain themselves to Tin House is just insulting. Sure, they’re trying to make an annoying hoop for people who will claim they don’t have enough money to jump through, but there are actual poor people out there who genuinely can’t afford to buy a book this year but would still like to write and be published, and this policy either discounts them or humiliates.
It comes down to another publisher scolding writers for being bad, lazy, cheap, stupid idiots when what they should be doing is working to expand their audience. Denigrating the community only makes people less likely to join it, and will never work as a way to finance books.
no its not okay. you have to buy a book at a physical bookstore. its up to you to find one. otherwise, you must send in a reason why you failed to find a physical bookstore. its up to you. together we’ll save these bookstores! good luck everyone!
That makes sense, but, the way I read it, it seemed more like call to action (albeit maybe not a very good one). The HTMLgiant community is very supportive, they buy a lot of books from indie presses and bookstores…but that isn’t necessarily the case with the larger population. The press release had its prolems, I agree 100%, but I didn’t see the tone as scolding or denigrating. It’s a small time period and not asking that much…half baked, maybe, but I think it’s pretty harmless. If Jimmy can create a reciept that fast, how hard is it to scan, photograph, or forge one? P.S. Kudos, Jimmy.
did not expect this thread to go in the direction it went.
anyone else confused by this wax/rotten apple thing?
Garett Strickland:
Explain yourself!
Can’t just drop a bombshell like that with no details. I AM INTRIGUED!
To be fair, you can just copy and paste that sentence into your submission and it’ll validate your submission. You’ve already done the legwork now.
I agree that this doesn’t mean to be scolding or denigrating, and that the tone isn’t there, I just think the premises on which it’s based are those things. A call to action that wasn’t based on the premise that writers have to be tricked or coerced is just, to me, pretty upsetting. I’m not sure how good the general population is about supporting books, and I’m not sure Tin House knows either.
It’s not that scanning or photographing or forging one is that hard if you have the right stuff around. It’s just that this whole thing might as well be designed to exclude and shame poor people, who often don’t have those things around. I can forge one because of the privilege that gave me opportunities to learn certain software. I can scan one because I go to a university where there’s the hardware. I could take a picture of one because I have a camera that was actually purchased for me by my previous university. A lot of people don’t have that stuff.
There have been periods during my life where I ate vanilla yogurt from a small bowl once a day, and I’m still paying off years-old oral surgery, and I have never actually been below the poverty line, where a lot of people live. This policy was created by people who didn’t think about what that might suggest, or don’t actually understand that real human beings who love and make art live in those circumstances. That’s the real cause of the venom here. Normal pay-for-play structures like those of Narrative just strike me as lame. This one grossed me out because of the “explain yourself” crap, in combination with the implication that writers aren’t reading.
sorry, should be “a call to action that IS based on” …
agreed. i mean, i’m not particularly partial to Tin House, but i didn’t find it all too condescending. i would highly agree with Darby that it’d be more beneficial to order directly from a publisher, and also that submitting a receipt from Borders would be a fail, but at the same time, reading the press release doesn’t give me any real reason to feel butt hurt about it. i feel like at least the intentions were good, albeit perhaps the execution a touch sloppy.
I smell a memoir proposal
Actually, no. I don’t really like him. Just using an example.
Classist, rather.
As someone who works at a bookstore and tries to support indie publishers, let me kindly suggest that you go fuck yourself.
do amazon receipts count?
what the fuck? Why the ‘fuck yourself’?
Yes!
I think there are too many editors. If an editor resents the writers whose work they read and sift through all day, they should quit. Just forget the whole litmag thing and spend that time watching TV, or playing scrabble, or something they actually like doing. The rest of us will be OK. The world will still turn w/o crabby, resentful editors.
im wrong then? that was always my impression, or i was sort of always told that i think. if i’m wrong, let me know, or can you elaborate? thanks.
As a sort of publisher, I can absolutely say the money goes further when people buy our books or magazines directly from us. The distributor takes 50 percent. We’ve been working with a distributor for a year now and haven’t seen a penny.
i mean ive always been oblivious to the whole local bookstore scene, there aren’t bookstores around me or even where i grew up besides the megas. i always thought the best thing i could be doing was buying directly from presses instead of like from amazon or something. if i buy from a local bookstore, does more of that money go to the author and press than if i buy it directly from that press?
what is it about a bookstore that has value besides like, nostalgia or aesthetic or sentimental value. maybe i shouldnt discard those things too quickly, i mean im sorry their business model seems to be dying but it doesnt mean anyone is reading less, just like when stores like tower records go out of business it doesnt mean people are listening to music less. people will always flock to the least cumbersome, least expensive and more convenient distribution channels.
roxane, yeah, that’s more like what i had thought.
and what do you do if the local indie bookstore has a shitty selection? Buy anyway? (That’s what I did for a little while.)
Wow. I completely agree with everyone who says this is condescending. And thank you Roxane for bringing up a good point: a lot of people live in areas where bookstores are simply inaccessible, i.e. dozens of miles away or more. Asking for an explanation takes this from being condescending to just ridiculous. Tin House is showing its ass to be both entitled and oblivious.
Right, I think Mike is just furious because people aren’t valuing indie bookstores as much as he does. And I think his fury was disproportionate to the problem, which is essentially a difference in priorities.
i was at work earlier and i was maybe being unnecessarily mean due to annoying people around me. i think it struck a nerve though. i sort of take it like someone who is acting as a gatekeeper is only going to let me through if i agree with their political position. which is okay, i would just turn and walk away quietly. but then they are stopping me while i am walking away and offering to let me through if i explain myself to them and feel guilty for not helping their cause. at that point i basically say fuck you and turn and walk away with venom.
also, i dont have the kind of ethic where the ease of getting around a guideline matters. forging a receipt, in my thinking, is maybe even more reprehensible. thats basically saying you dont give a fuck about any position but are just doing what you need to do to move yourself forward.
“Not to mention their summer workshops mostly cater to bored, middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write!”
wow, talk about condescending
not to mention sexist
So you liked Ben Marcus before they did?
Sorry, I’m not saying what they’re doing is awesome or revolutionary, but it hardly seems worthy of all the venom. At least they’re offering to read unagented writers; not every press does (I wish more would). Considering how easy the policy is to get around, I’m guessing the issue has more to do with not liking tinhouse. Is that part of it?
I had just been wondering if Tin House would accept receipts from adult bookstores…
I like Tin House a lot, most of the time. I just don’t like this policy. Decent writers read. They buy books. They don’t need to be told to. If it were a matter of just needing another hoop to jump through they could make it less of a hassle — who wants to scan a receipt and all that just to make a submission? If you’re a decent writer, then they can safely assume you bought a book in the last year or whatever. And if you’re not, you didn’t have a chance anyway.
And the idea that anyone genuinely impoverished enough that they don’t have the money for a book should have to explain themselves to Tin House is just insulting. Sure, they’re trying to make an annoying hoop for people who will claim they don’t have enough money to jump through, but there are actual poor people out there who genuinely can’t afford to buy a book this year but would still like to write and be published, and this policy either discounts them or humiliates.
It comes down to another publisher scolding writers for being bad, lazy, cheap, stupid idiots when what they should be doing is working to expand their audience. Denigrating the community only makes people less likely to join it, and will never work as a way to finance books.
Aside from whether or not this is condescending, it doesn’t seem like a very good marketing strategy in the long term. Sure, they might sell more books in the short term, but they’ll end up alienating more potential buyers when it’s all said and done. There are much smarter ways for an indie press to market its books than this; it’s sort of depressing to see so many writers and presses these days resorting to techniques that we’d expect from some regular shill hawking stuff from the sidewalk by screaming at people, or making them purchase an item so that they can “purchase” another item for free.
That makes sense, but, the way I read it, it seemed more like call to action (albeit maybe not a very good one). The HTMLgiant community is very supportive, they buy a lot of books from indie presses and bookstores…but that isn’t necessarily the case with the larger population. The press release had its prolems, I agree 100%, but I didn’t see the tone as scolding or denigrating. It’s a small time period and not asking that much…half baked, maybe, but I think it’s pretty harmless. If Jimmy can create a reciept that fast, how hard is it to scan, photograph, or forge one? P.S. Kudos, Jimmy.
damn you, chris. feel butt hurt! storm the fronts!!
did not expect this thread to go in the direction it went.
Though I should say that DZANC does a great job of marketing its brand. They definitely have the big picture in mind.
anyone else confused by this wax/rotten apple thing?
To be fair, you can just copy and paste that sentence into your submission and it’ll validate your submission. You’ve already done the legwork now.
I agree that this doesn’t mean to be scolding or denigrating, and that the tone isn’t there, I just think the premises on which it’s based are those things. A call to action that wasn’t based on the premise that writers have to be tricked or coerced is just, to me, pretty upsetting. I’m not sure how good the general population is about supporting books, and I’m not sure Tin House knows either.
It’s not that scanning or photographing or forging one is that hard if you have the right stuff around. It’s just that this whole thing might as well be designed to exclude and shame poor people, who often don’t have those things around. I can forge one because of the privilege that gave me opportunities to learn certain software. I can scan one because I go to a university where there’s the hardware. I could take a picture of one because I have a camera that was actually purchased for me by my previous university. A lot of people don’t have that stuff.
There have been periods during my life where I ate vanilla yogurt from a small bowl once a day, and I’m still paying off years-old oral surgery, and I have never actually been below the poverty line, where a lot of people live. This policy was created by people who didn’t think about what that might suggest, or don’t actually understand that real human beings who love and make art live in those circumstances. That’s the real cause of the venom here. Normal pay-for-play structures like those of Narrative just strike me as lame. This one grossed me out because of the “explain yourself” crap, in combination with the implication that writers aren’t reading.
sorry, should be “a call to action that IS based on” …
agreed. i mean, i’m not particularly partial to Tin House, but i didn’t find it all too condescending. i would highly agree with Darby that it’d be more beneficial to order directly from a publisher, and also that submitting a receipt from Borders would be a fail, but at the same time, reading the press release doesn’t give me any real reason to feel butt hurt about it. i feel like at least the intentions were good, albeit perhaps the execution a touch sloppy.
I’m inclined to think that a publication can have any submission policy they damn well please. And I’m also sympathetic to the desire to maybe limit the number of unsolicited submissions… you know, think about it, you’re Tin House, you get TONS of unsolicited stuff that you’ve got to do something about — and even if that something is merely stuffing a little preprinted “Thanks, but no…” slip into the SASE, that’s still a lot of time… so you go on and piss off a bunch of people, and you don’t have to deal with quite so many.
We’re always having a little behind-the-scenes sumbissions guidlelines war at our place. My guidelines always involve quests and sometimes fair maidens in need of rescue (all submissions must be accompanied by a recently-rescued fair maiden — NO PREVIOUSLY RESCUED “MAIDENS” WILL BE ACCEPTED), but I somehow always seem to get overruled.
As someone who works at a bookstore and tries to support indie publishers, let me kindly suggest that you go fuck yourself.
what the fuck? Why the ‘fuck yourself’?
Yes!
I think there are too many editors. If an editor resents the writers whose work they read and sift through all day, they should quit. Just forget the whole litmag thing and spend that time watching TV, or playing scrabble, or something they actually like doing. The rest of us will be OK. The world will still turn w/o crabby, resentful editors.
im wrong then? that was always my impression, or i was sort of always told that i think. if i’m wrong, let me know, or can you elaborate? thanks.
As a sort of publisher, I can absolutely say the money goes further when people buy our books or magazines directly from us. The distributor takes 50 percent. We’ve been working with a distributor for a year now and haven’t seen a penny.
i mean ive always been oblivious to the whole local bookstore scene, there aren’t bookstores around me or even where i grew up besides the megas. i always thought the best thing i could be doing was buying directly from presses instead of like from amazon or something. if i buy from a local bookstore, does more of that money go to the author and press than if i buy it directly from that press?
what is it about a bookstore that has value besides like, nostalgia or aesthetic or sentimental value. maybe i shouldnt discard those things too quickly, i mean im sorry their business model seems to be dying but it doesnt mean anyone is reading less, just like when stores like tower records go out of business it doesnt mean people are listening to music less. people will always flock to the least cumbersome, least expensive and more convenient distribution channels.
roxane, yeah, that’s more like what i had thought.
and what do you do if the local indie bookstore has a shitty selection? Buy anyway? (That’s what I did for a little while.)
Right, I think Mike is just furious because people aren’t valuing indie bookstores as much as he does. And I think his fury was disproportionate to the problem, which is essentially a difference in priorities.
Not to say they don’t have SOME marketing in mind, but it isn’t like they’re saying “you have to buy our books.” If sales is the aim, it certainly isn’t worth it.
i was at work earlier and i was maybe being unnecessarily mean due to annoying people around me. i think it struck a nerve though. i sort of take it like someone who is acting as a gatekeeper is only going to let me through if i agree with their political position. which is okay, i would just turn and walk away quietly. but then they are stopping me while i am walking away and offering to let me through if i explain myself to them and feel guilty for not helping their cause. at that point i basically say fuck you and turn and walk away with venom.
also, i dont have the kind of ethic where the ease of getting around a guideline matters. forging a receipt, in my thinking, is maybe even more reprehensible. thats basically saying you dont give a fuck about any position but are just doing what you need to do to move yourself forward.
I would respect this more if they were trying to sell their magazine.
Aside from whether or not this is condescending, it doesn’t seem like a very good marketing strategy in the long term. Sure, they might sell more books in the short term, but they’ll end up alienating more potential buyers when it’s all said and done. There are much smarter ways for an indie press to market its books than this; it’s sort of depressing to see so many writers and presses these days resorting to techniques that we’d expect from some regular shill hawking stuff from the sidewalk by screaming at people, or making them purchase an item so that they can “purchase” another item for free.
Not to say they don’t have SOME marketing in mind, but it isn’t like they’re saying “you have to buy our books.” If sales is the aim, it certainly isn’t worth it.
_____________________
What exactly is their aim? My impression of Tin House Books is that they don’t do much to promote their authors in the first place. So they basically publish books that they’re not even really behind, and when–shockingly–the books don’t sell well, they require submitters to buy a book in order to submit, knowing that the option of buying another book from another press is really an attempt to entice submitters to buy a TH book because submitters will think that their chances will improve if they choose a TH book over something else.
It’s an absurd, gimmicky approach that reeks of desperation.
damn you, chris. feel butt hurt! storm the fronts!!
Though I should say that DZANC does a great job of marketing its brand. They definitely have the big picture in mind.
Having had a night to sleep on the Tin House policy, I have had a change of heart. What a brilliant concept. We at Dzanc Books will now require a resume and college and grad school transcript – there must of course be grad school – with all unsolicited manuscripts. The submitter will be required to provide a reading list of all the books they’ve read in the last five years. We at Dzanc will also provide a reading list and the submitter will need to have read each book on our list and provide a review. Failure to meet these standards, the submitter will have to bake us a cake. And not just a cake but a poetic cake, and a film of them baking the cake. As we receive thousands of submissions a year at Dzanc, we have every right and reason to limit the folly of would be submitters thinking they can just submit us their work. This is brilliant. Thank you Tin House for blazing this trail.
I’m inclined to think that a publication can have any submission policy they damn well please. And I’m also sympathetic to the desire to maybe limit the number of unsolicited submissions… you know, think about it, you’re Tin House, you get TONS of unsolicited stuff that you’ve got to do something about — and even if that something is merely stuffing a little preprinted “Thanks, but no…” slip into the SASE, that’s still a lot of time… so you go on and piss off a bunch of people, and you don’t have to deal with quite so many.
We’re always having a little behind-the-scenes sumbissions guidlelines war at our place. My guidelines always involve quests and sometimes fair maidens in need of rescue (all submissions must be accompanied by a recently-rescued fair maiden — NO PREVIOUSLY RESCUED “MAIDENS” WILL BE ACCEPTED), but I somehow always seem to get overruled.
WHEN ZZZZIPPP WALKS INTO STORES BOOKS STICK TO HIM LIKE MAGNETS.
Not to say they don’t have SOME marketing in mind, but it isn’t like they’re saying “you have to buy our books.” If sales is the aim, it certainly isn’t worth it.
I would respect this more if they were trying to sell their magazine.
People running businesses selling the creations/labors of others are almost invariably some form of cnut. Record labels, publishers, art galleries, booking agents, management teams, plantations, brothels, adoption agencies, et al. Even in the rare instances in which these people start out not being cnuts, they most certainly become them… regardless of the size (or the hipness, greenness, fair-tradeness or quasi-collectivistness) of the operation. They may or may not be necessary cnuts but cnuts they are. Strange.
Not to say they don’t have SOME marketing in mind, but it isn’t like they’re saying “you have to buy our books.” If sales is the aim, it certainly isn’t worth it.
_____________________
What exactly is their aim? My impression of Tin House Books is that they don’t do much to promote their authors in the first place. So they basically publish books that they’re not even really behind, and when–shockingly–the books don’t sell well, they require submitters to buy a book in order to submit, knowing that the option of buying another book from another press is really an attempt to entice submitters to buy a TH book because submitters will think that their chances will improve if they choose a TH book over something else.
It’s an absurd, gimmicky approach that reeks of desperation.
Having had a night to sleep on the Tin House policy, I have had a change of heart. What a brilliant concept. We at Dzanc Books will now require a resume and college and grad school transcript – there must of course be grad school – with all unsolicited manuscripts. The submitter will be required to provide a reading list of all the books they’ve read in the last five years. We at Dzanc will also provide a reading list and the submitter will need to have read each book on our list and provide a review. Failure to meet these standards, the submitter will have to bake us a cake. And not just a cake but a poetic cake, and a film of them baking the cake. As we receive thousands of submissions a year at Dzanc, we have every right and reason to limit the folly of would be submitters thinking they can just submit us their work. This is brilliant. Thank you Tin House for blazing this trail.
Many good thoughts here, & I must say I’m w/ Steve Gillis & the others who don’t like the policy. I don’t find it the Axis of Evil, either, more like a mild irritant. Still, who needs the irritant? My objection is rooted partly in the magazine’s snoozy “middle-brow elitism,” as Garret Strickland put it, partly in the laughable holier-than-thou posturing of the editors, party in the sorry fact that paperwork & expense for authors is already harsh enough. Like many on this thread, I’ve been an editor, magazine & press, & also a contest judge & first reader. I sympathize w/ what TH is up against. But, hey, Editor — that’s your job. You asked for this, to read & discern all day long. Then too, consider what you’re asking. You want your writers to prove their worth, somehow? The way I remember it, we writers have been told for decades to keep submission letters short, & not to rattle our medals. The TH policy stands like a knucklehead bouncer at the door: only the celebrities get in, or those w/ cash in hand.
If I start a journal/press, I’ll require people link/photocopy a book review with their submission. That would promote books and ensure that people actually read and think about the book critically, rather than just blindly consume. No?
I’m unlikely to start a press/journal any time soon. Besides, with that kind of submission policy, no one would submit.
There are a lot of good magazines. Most of the population can’t really afford to buy more than a few magazines a month without having to scrimp on other equally valid priorities, such as alcohol and nutrition.
There are a lot of good magazines. Most of the population can’t really afford to buy more than a few magazines a month without having to scrimp on other equally valid priorities, such as alcohol and nutrition.
There are a lot of good magazines. Most of the population can’t really afford to buy more than a few magazines a month without having to scrimp on other equally valid priorities, such as alcohol and nutrition.
Yeah, I have to actually avoid going into bookshops most of the time when I’m in town, because I inevitably come out having purchased something that I can’t realistically afford and don’t have time to read (due to all the other books I’ve already bought on impulse in the same shops).
Of course, that’s just a case of poor self-control, rather than a symptom of a physical (or not) condition, as appears to be the case for ZZZIPP and his energy-based style of being.
Yeah, I have to actually avoid going into bookshops most of the time when I’m in town, because I inevitably come out having purchased something that I can’t realistically afford and don’t have time to read (due to all the other books I’ve already bought on impulse in the same shops).
Of course, that’s just a case of poor self-control, rather than a symptom of a physical (or not) condition, as appears to be the case for ZZZIPP and his energy-based style of being.
Classism is boring. Grow up, betray fewer insecurrities, etc.
Classism is boring. Grow up, betray fewer insecurrities, etc.
Classism is boring. Grow up, betray fewer insecurrities, etc.
WHEN ZZZZIPPP WALKS INTO STORES BOOKS STICK TO HIM LIKE MAGNETS.
yes, laughing
yes, laughing
yes, laughing
Do the people they solicit (basically the only ones that get into Tin House) have to show receipts too or does Tin House editors have to show book receipts if they are soliciting well know authors?
Anyway it’s NOT about the authors buying the books. It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not. I don’t think they are taking themselves too seriously that they are saving the book industry, so I’m for this and amused by it.
Do authors really not buy at least one book per submission period?
Do the people they solicit (basically the only ones that get into Tin House) have to show receipts too or does Tin House editors have to show book receipts if they are soliciting well know authors?
Anyway it’s NOT about the authors buying the books. It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not. I don’t think they are taking themselves too seriously that they are saving the book industry, so I’m for this and amused by it.
Do authors really not buy at least one book per submission period?
Do the people they solicit (basically the only ones that get into Tin House) have to show receipts too or does Tin House editors have to show book receipts if they are soliciting well know authors?
Anyway it’s NOT about the authors buying the books. It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not. I don’t think they are taking themselves too seriously that they are saving the book industry, so I’m for this and amused by it.
Do authors really not buy at least one book per submission period?
When it comes to the chivalrous defense of “middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write!” count me the fuck out. Cookie-baking, bridge and diddling the Colored servants were good enough for their Miltowned grandmothers and it’s good enough for them! When successful businesswomen supporting vacuous trophy-husbands becomes a meme, this put-down will attain gender-parity.
When it comes to the chivalrous defense of “middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write!” count me the fuck out. Cookie-baking, bridge and diddling the Colored servants were good enough for their Miltowned grandmothers and it’s good enough for them! When successful businesswomen supporting vacuous trophy-husbands becomes a meme, this put-down will attain gender-parity.
When it comes to the chivalrous defense of “middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write!” count me the fuck out. Cookie-baking, bridge and diddling the Colored servants were good enough for their Miltowned grandmothers and it’s good enough for them! When successful businesswomen supporting vacuous trophy-husbands becomes a meme, this put-down will attain gender-parity.
People running businesses selling the creations/labors of others are almost invariably some form of cnut. Record labels, publishers, art galleries, booking agents, management teams, plantations, brothels, adoption agencies, et al. Even in the rare instances in which these people start out not being cnuts, they most certainly become them… regardless of the size (or the hipness, greenness, fair-tradeness or quasi-collectivistness) of the operation. They may or may not be necessary cnuts but cnuts they are. Strange.
I just took this a lot less seriously than some of the objectors. While the policy itself seems like a real thing, I read the language surrounding the policy and their overall approach with a really healthy does of tongue-in-cheek/self-parodying. The catch is, of course, that being too poor to buy a book is certainly not a laughing matter, but still: I think TH is taking themselves less seriously than we are taking them in our replies.
I just took this a lot less seriously than some of the objectors. While the policy itself seems like a real thing, I read the language surrounding the policy and their overall approach with a really healthy does of tongue-in-cheek/self-parodying. The catch is, of course, that being too poor to buy a book is certainly not a laughing matter, but still: I think TH is taking themselves less seriously than we are taking them in our replies.
I just took this a lot less seriously than some of the objectors. While the policy itself seems like a real thing, I read the language surrounding the policy and their overall approach with a really healthy does of tongue-in-cheek/self-parodying. The catch is, of course, that being too poor to buy a book is certainly not a laughing matter, but still: I think TH is taking themselves less seriously than we are taking them in our replies.
“It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not.”
The policy has no vision or long-term sustainability; it’s a short-term gimmick that will be forgotten about a year from now when publishers like DZANC are still running free workshops for young, potential writers and consumers of literature. There is a ton of noise in today’s world so it takes more than simply “getting the word out” to make any real change.
“It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not.”
The policy has no vision or long-term sustainability; it’s a short-term gimmick that will be forgotten about a year from now when publishers like DZANC are still running free workshops for young, potential writers and consumers of literature. There is a ton of noise in today’s world so it takes more than simply “getting the word out” to make any real change.
“It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not.”
The policy has no vision or long-term sustainability; it’s a short-term gimmick that will be forgotten about a year from now when publishers like DZANC are still running free workshops for young, potential writers and consumers of literature. There is a ton of noise in today’s world so it takes more than simply “getting the word out” to make any real change.
They’re trying to rally some support for dying bookstores. Bastards!
They’re trying to rally some support for dying bookstores. Bastards!
They’re trying to rally some support for dying bookstores. Bastards!
Awesome idea, though. Maybe an informal review–a reaction, as it were.
Awesome idea, though. Maybe an informal review–a reaction, as it were.
Awesome idea, though. Maybe an informal review–a reaction, as it were.
Many good thoughts here, & I must say I’m w/ Steve Gillis & the others who don’t like the policy. I don’t find it the Axis of Evil, either, more like a mild irritant. Still, who needs the irritant? My objection is rooted partly in the magazine’s snoozy “middle-brow elitism,” as Garret Strickland put it, partly in the laughable holier-than-thou posturing of the editors, party in the sorry fact that paperwork & expense for authors is already harsh enough. Like many on this thread, I’ve been an editor, magazine & press, & also a contest judge & first reader. I sympathize w/ what TH is up against. But, hey, Editor — that’s your job. You asked for this, to read & discern all day long. Then too, consider what you’re asking. You want your writers to prove their worth, somehow? The way I remember it, we writers have been told for decades to keep submission letters short, & not to rattle our medals. The TH policy stands like a knucklehead bouncer at the door: only the celebrities get in, or those w/ cash in hand.
If I start a journal/press, I’ll require people link/photocopy a book review with their submission. That would promote books and ensure that people actually read and think about the book critically, rather than just blindly consume. No?
I’m unlikely to start a press/journal any time soon. Besides, with that kind of submission policy, no one would submit.
SHE’S RIGHT IT IS EXACTLY 100% LIKE THAT
SHE’S RIGHT IT IS EXACTLY 100% LIKE THAT
SHE’S RIGHT IT IS EXACTLY 100% LIKE THAT
Oregon or Brooklyn
Oregon or Brooklyn
Oregon or Brooklyn
OPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONS
OPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONS
OPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONS
I am blown away at how many people misread Tin House’s sentiment. Doesn’t bode well for readers.
I am blown away at how many people misread Tin House’s sentiment. Doesn’t bode well for readers.
I am blown away at how many people misread Tin House’s sentiment. Doesn’t bode well for readers.
There are a lot of good magazines. Most of the population can’t really afford to buy more than a few magazines a month without having to scrimp on other equally valid priorities, such as alcohol and nutrition.
Yeah, I have to actually avoid going into bookshops most of the time when I’m in town, because I inevitably come out having purchased something that I can’t realistically afford and don’t have time to read (due to all the other books I’ve already bought on impulse in the same shops).
Of course, that’s just a case of poor self-control, rather than a symptom of a physical (or not) condition, as appears to be the case for ZZZIPP and his energy-based style of being.
Classism is boring. Grow up, betray fewer insecurrities, etc.
yes, laughing
Did anyone read the actual press release at the TH site? it’s headlined “BUY A BOOK, SAVE A BOOKSTORE.” Hardly an ignoble position or goal. It’s here- http://www.tinhouse.com/all_news.htm Also, if you read the whole post at the TH site, you’ll see that this is part of a larger project designed to instill a sense of happy pride in patronizing brick-and-mortar bookstores. Ever heard of Record Store Day? Comic Book Day? This isn’t just one day, but it’s sort of like that. From their release: “Writers are invited to videotape, film, paint, photograph, animate, twitter, or memorialize in any way (that is logical and/or decipherable) the process of stepping into a bookstore and buying a book to send along for our possible amusement and/or use on our Web site.”
And to all the people waging the classism argument, I would like to suggest, with all due respect–which is to say, not much–that you are full of shit and that, what’s more, you damn well know it.
Let’s say I want to submit a book manuscript to Tin House. I enclose a copy of the receipt for the last book I bought new in a bookstore, in this case ON BEING BLUE by William Gass from McNally Jackson books on Prince Street, NYC. This paperback book has a sticker price of $11.95, and I got it at 10% off because it was a staff pick.
That makes OBB about the same price as a movie ticket, or a full-album download on iTunes, or two drinks at a reasonable bar. Granted, those are New York prices, but any urban center is going to be within about spitting range of those numbers (iTunes of course costs the same all over), and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.
I think it’s incredibly noble of Tin House to forgo any kind of “reading fee” that they would keep for themselves, and instead encourage you to simply present evidence of an active engagement with literary and bookstore culture today. Presumably, because you are an aspiring writer and an avid reader, you are not being “forced” to go out and buy a book just to submit your work–you probably buy books on a semi-regular basis, and so it is really no problem for you to simply dig out the last receipt you generated and send it along.
I think the people who are asking about the library card option are missing the point. This isn’t an elitist disenfranchisement scheme–it’s not a matter of proving your literacy to them. The fact that the majority of respondents here presume it is their “literary-ness” which is under question says worlds more about y’all than about TH, which I assume takes it for granted that people who write, read, and vice versa. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that they don’t really give a shit if you even read the book you’ve got a receipt for having bought. They are looking for displays of enthusiasm for the process of publishing on the consumer-side, from those who would inflict themselves on the world of publishing on the supplier-side.
If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?
Did anyone read the actual press release at the TH site? it’s headlined “BUY A BOOK, SAVE A BOOKSTORE.” Hardly an ignoble position or goal. It’s here- http://www.tinhouse.com/all_news.htm Also, if you read the whole post at the TH site, you’ll see that this is part of a larger project designed to instill a sense of happy pride in patronizing brick-and-mortar bookstores. Ever heard of Record Store Day? Comic Book Day? This isn’t just one day, but it’s sort of like that. From their release: “Writers are invited to videotape, film, paint, photograph, animate, twitter, or memorialize in any way (that is logical and/or decipherable) the process of stepping into a bookstore and buying a book to send along for our possible amusement and/or use on our Web site.”
And to all the people waging the classism argument, I would like to suggest, with all due respect–which is to say, not much–that you are full of shit and that, what’s more, you damn well know it.
Let’s say I want to submit a book manuscript to Tin House. I enclose a copy of the receipt for the last book I bought new in a bookstore, in this case ON BEING BLUE by William Gass from McNally Jackson books on Prince Street, NYC. This paperback book has a sticker price of $11.95, and I got it at 10% off because it was a staff pick.
That makes OBB about the same price as a movie ticket, or a full-album download on iTunes, or two drinks at a reasonable bar. Granted, those are New York prices, but any urban center is going to be within about spitting range of those numbers (iTunes of course costs the same all over), and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.
I think it’s incredibly noble of Tin House to forgo any kind of “reading fee” that they would keep for themselves, and instead encourage you to simply present evidence of an active engagement with literary and bookstore culture today. Presumably, because you are an aspiring writer and an avid reader, you are not being “forced” to go out and buy a book just to submit your work–you probably buy books on a semi-regular basis, and so it is really no problem for you to simply dig out the last receipt you generated and send it along.
I think the people who are asking about the library card option are missing the point. This isn’t an elitist disenfranchisement scheme–it’s not a matter of proving your literacy to them. The fact that the majority of respondents here presume it is their “literary-ness” which is under question says worlds more about y’all than about TH, which I assume takes it for granted that people who write, read, and vice versa. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that they don’t really give a shit if you even read the book you’ve got a receipt for having bought. They are looking for displays of enthusiasm for the process of publishing on the consumer-side, from those who would inflict themselves on the world of publishing on the supplier-side.
If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?
Did anyone read the actual press release at the TH site? it’s headlined “BUY A BOOK, SAVE A BOOKSTORE.” Hardly an ignoble position or goal. It’s here- http://www.tinhouse.com/all_news.htm Also, if you read the whole post at the TH site, you’ll see that this is part of a larger project designed to instill a sense of happy pride in patronizing brick-and-mortar bookstores. Ever heard of Record Store Day? Comic Book Day? This isn’t just one day, but it’s sort of like that. From their release: “Writers are invited to videotape, film, paint, photograph, animate, twitter, or memorialize in any way (that is logical and/or decipherable) the process of stepping into a bookstore and buying a book to send along for our possible amusement and/or use on our Web site.”
And to all the people waging the classism argument, I would like to suggest, with all due respect–which is to say, not much–that you are full of shit and that, what’s more, you damn well know it.
Let’s say I want to submit a book manuscript to Tin House. I enclose a copy of the receipt for the last book I bought new in a bookstore, in this case ON BEING BLUE by William Gass from McNally Jackson books on Prince Street, NYC. This paperback book has a sticker price of $11.95, and I got it at 10% off because it was a staff pick.
That makes OBB about the same price as a movie ticket, or a full-album download on iTunes, or two drinks at a reasonable bar. Granted, those are New York prices, but any urban center is going to be within about spitting range of those numbers (iTunes of course costs the same all over), and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.
I think it’s incredibly noble of Tin House to forgo any kind of “reading fee” that they would keep for themselves, and instead encourage you to simply present evidence of an active engagement with literary and bookstore culture today. Presumably, because you are an aspiring writer and an avid reader, you are not being “forced” to go out and buy a book just to submit your work–you probably buy books on a semi-regular basis, and so it is really no problem for you to simply dig out the last receipt you generated and send it along.
I think the people who are asking about the library card option are missing the point. This isn’t an elitist disenfranchisement scheme–it’s not a matter of proving your literacy to them. The fact that the majority of respondents here presume it is their “literary-ness” which is under question says worlds more about y’all than about TH, which I assume takes it for granted that people who write, read, and vice versa. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that they don’t really give a shit if you even read the book you’ve got a receipt for having bought. They are looking for displays of enthusiasm for the process of publishing on the consumer-side, from those who would inflict themselves on the world of publishing on the supplier-side.
If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?
see below
see below
see below
Yeah, we’re all too stupid to see that Tin House is attempting to save bookstores by stating the obvious to people who already support bookstores.
I’m blown away that people actually think this will accomplish anything in the long run.
Yeah, we’re all too stupid to see that Tin House is attempting to save bookstores by stating the obvious to people who already support bookstores.
I’m blown away that people actually think this will accomplish anything in the long run.
Yeah, we’re all too stupid to see that Tin House is attempting to save bookstores by stating the obvious to people who already support bookstores.
I’m blown away that people actually think this will accomplish anything in the long run.
Do the people they solicit (basically the only ones that get into Tin House) have to show receipts too or does Tin House editors have to show book receipts if they are soliciting well know authors?
Anyway it’s NOT about the authors buying the books. It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not. I don’t think they are taking themselves too seriously that they are saving the book industry, so I’m for this and amused by it.
Do authors really not buy at least one book per submission period?
When it comes to the chivalrous defense of “middle-aged housewives with rich husbands and excess time who decide, I’m going to write!” count me the fuck out. Cookie-baking, bridge and diddling the Colored servants were good enough for their Miltowned grandmothers and it’s good enough for them! When successful businesswomen supporting vacuous trophy-husbands becomes a meme, this put-down will attain gender-parity.
finally, justin nails it. i mean, ive been asking myself why i get so riled up about this and it turns out its because i *hate* bookstores. they are horrible, awful buildings. and they smell like mold. clean your bookstores for god sake!
two things that this is not about: 1. th’s sentiment (which was obviously well-intentioned, no one is faulting them for that.). 2. the ease of fulfilling the requirement.
i dont have enthusiasm for the physicality of bookstores and yet i still consider myself a bibliophile. oh god, how is that possible! th wants me to have enthusiasm for something i dont have it for. sorry, i dont have that enthusiasm. i didnt know having that enthusiasm was a requirement for being a writer. i guess im blacklisted from this reading period then. oh well.
also, i dont think naysayers here are really that upset. its the internet, people speak up only when they can say something argumentative, and otherwise dont engage. in general, im getting more annoyed at the idea of htmlgiant commenters being lumped into one entity and considering them all a bunch of crazies. like everyone sits around in a room and waits for a post that has a slightly controversial element and then discuss how it will be attacked, and if we can get justin taylor to resond, then we win!
though, i find the idea of it being *noble* to forgo a reading fee kind of dumb. ‘no reading fee’ should be sop, dude.
i dont care that much about th’s thing, honestly, no one here does. its the internet and its htmlgiant, where it used to be fun to comment and get into fisticuffs, used to be.
finally, justin nails it. i mean, ive been asking myself why i get so riled up about this and it turns out its because i *hate* bookstores. they are horrible, awful buildings. and they smell like mold. clean your bookstores for god sake!
two things that this is not about: 1. th’s sentiment (which was obviously well-intentioned, no one is faulting them for that.). 2. the ease of fulfilling the requirement.
i dont have enthusiasm for the physicality of bookstores and yet i still consider myself a bibliophile. oh god, how is that possible! th wants me to have enthusiasm for something i dont have it for. sorry, i dont have that enthusiasm. i didnt know having that enthusiasm was a requirement for being a writer. i guess im blacklisted from this reading period then. oh well.
also, i dont think naysayers here are really that upset. its the internet, people speak up only when they can say something argumentative, and otherwise dont engage. in general, im getting more annoyed at the idea of htmlgiant commenters being lumped into one entity and considering them all a bunch of crazies. like everyone sits around in a room and waits for a post that has a slightly controversial element and then discuss how it will be attacked, and if we can get justin taylor to resond, then we win!
though, i find the idea of it being *noble* to forgo a reading fee kind of dumb. ‘no reading fee’ should be sop, dude.
i dont care that much about th’s thing, honestly, no one here does. its the internet and its htmlgiant, where it used to be fun to comment and get into fisticuffs, used to be.
finally, justin nails it. i mean, ive been asking myself why i get so riled up about this and it turns out its because i *hate* bookstores. they are horrible, awful buildings. and they smell like mold. clean your bookstores for god sake!
two things that this is not about: 1. th’s sentiment (which was obviously well-intentioned, no one is faulting them for that.). 2. the ease of fulfilling the requirement.
i dont have enthusiasm for the physicality of bookstores and yet i still consider myself a bibliophile. oh god, how is that possible! th wants me to have enthusiasm for something i dont have it for. sorry, i dont have that enthusiasm. i didnt know having that enthusiasm was a requirement for being a writer. i guess im blacklisted from this reading period then. oh well.
also, i dont think naysayers here are really that upset. its the internet, people speak up only when they can say something argumentative, and otherwise dont engage. in general, im getting more annoyed at the idea of htmlgiant commenters being lumped into one entity and considering them all a bunch of crazies. like everyone sits around in a room and waits for a post that has a slightly controversial element and then discuss how it will be attacked, and if we can get justin taylor to resond, then we win!
though, i find the idea of it being *noble* to forgo a reading fee kind of dumb. ‘no reading fee’ should be sop, dude.
i dont care that much about th’s thing, honestly, no one here does. its the internet and its htmlgiant, where it used to be fun to comment and get into fisticuffs, used to be.
Good point about the idea that people are “angry.” I’m not angry and I doubt anyone else is on either side.
I simply don’t think this is going to do any good. The way to reach potential readers and book buyers is through sincere, long-term engagement, not by shouting at them to “buy books!!!!!!!!!!!” on the street corner or on some blog.
Good point about the idea that people are “angry.” I’m not angry and I doubt anyone else is on either side.
I simply don’t think this is going to do any good. The way to reach potential readers and book buyers is through sincere, long-term engagement, not by shouting at them to “buy books!!!!!!!!!!!” on the street corner or on some blog.
Good point about the idea that people are “angry.” I’m not angry and I doubt anyone else is on either side.
I simply don’t think this is going to do any good. The way to reach potential readers and book buyers is through sincere, long-term engagement, not by shouting at them to “buy books!!!!!!!!!!!” on the street corner or on some blog.
must be a nice job, darby, where you get to post all day on htmlgiant. your employer must be really pleased with your performance.
must be a nice job, darby, where you get to post all day on htmlgiant. your employer must be really pleased with your performance.
must be a nice job, darby, where you get to post all day on htmlgiant. your employer must be really pleased with your performance.
That’s all well and good. My main issue (and really I am not riled up in any way about this) is that not everyone lives near a bookstore. This is a well and good idea but it’s one predicated on certain assumptions. I think there’s room in this discussion to acknowledge that.
That’s all well and good. My main issue (and really I am not riled up in any way about this) is that not everyone lives near a bookstore. This is a well and good idea but it’s one predicated on certain assumptions. I think there’s room in this discussion to acknowledge that.
That’s all well and good. My main issue (and really I am not riled up in any way about this) is that not everyone lives near a bookstore. This is a well and good idea but it’s one predicated on certain assumptions. I think there’s room in this discussion to acknowledge that.
dzanc runs free workgroups?
dzanc runs free workgroups?
dzanc runs free workgroups?
he acknowledged it..
“and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.”
he acknowledged it..
“and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.”
he acknowledged it..
“and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.”
i’m going to start an online journal and require all submitters prove they have purchased online at least four e-books (four e-chaps equal one/seventh of an e-book) in the past 18 months and that write a paragraph about why they don’t shop at Borders or Barnes and Noble to buy books like “Z2 is for Zoologist in the Second Lion’s Pit”
i’m going to start an online journal and require all submitters prove they have purchased online at least four e-books (four e-chaps equal one/seventh of an e-book) in the past 18 months and that write a paragraph about why they don’t shop at Borders or Barnes and Noble to buy books like “Z2 is for Zoologist in the Second Lion’s Pit”
i’m going to start an online journal and require all submitters prove they have purchased online at least four e-books (four e-chaps equal one/seventh of an e-book) in the past 18 months and that write a paragraph about why they don’t shop at Borders or Barnes and Noble to buy books like “Z2 is for Zoologist in the Second Lion’s Pit”
I was under the impression that they offered free workshops to inner city youth, but maybe I’m wrong.
I was under the impression that they offered free workshops to inner city youth, but maybe I’m wrong.
I was under the impression that they offered free workshops to inner city youth, but maybe I’m wrong.
Golly, I glossed over that gem of a statement. Well shucks. I best go get my $4 steak dinner.
Golly, I glossed over that gem of a statement. Well shucks. I best go get my $4 steak dinner.
Golly, I glossed over that gem of a statement. Well shucks. I best go get my $4 steak dinner.
haha. you have no idea.
haha. you have no idea.
haha. you have no idea.
haha
haha
haha
I just took this a lot less seriously than some of the objectors. While the policy itself seems like a real thing, I read the language surrounding the policy and their overall approach with a really healthy does of tongue-in-cheek/self-parodying. The catch is, of course, that being too poor to buy a book is certainly not a laughing matter, but still: I think TH is taking themselves less seriously than we are taking them in our replies.
You gotta love the conflation of buying literature with eating out. So much emphasis on merely buying the product, and not enough on engaging with it for life. It doesn’t matter if a bunch of people go out today and buy books as a result of this blog post if there’s no serious attempt to engage the buyer or reader beyond his or her purchase. It’s like Burger King selling a promo burger for a month–folks might rush out to try it but they’ll forget about it a two weeks later.
Let’s just all pitch in money to create billboards if all we really care about is getting people to “buy books.”
You gotta love the conflation of buying literature with eating out. So much emphasis on merely buying the product, and not enough on engaging with it for life. It doesn’t matter if a bunch of people go out today and buy books as a result of this blog post if there’s no serious attempt to engage the buyer or reader beyond his or her purchase. It’s like Burger King selling a promo burger for a month–folks might rush out to try it but they’ll forget about it a two weeks later.
Let’s just all pitch in money to create billboards if all we really care about is getting people to “buy books.”
You gotta love the conflation of buying literature with eating out. So much emphasis on merely buying the product, and not enough on engaging with it for life. It doesn’t matter if a bunch of people go out today and buy books as a result of this blog post if there’s no serious attempt to engage the buyer or reader beyond his or her purchase. It’s like Burger King selling a promo burger for a month–folks might rush out to try it but they’ll forget about it a two weeks later.
Let’s just all pitch in money to create billboards if all we really care about is getting people to “buy books.”
i kind of see this whole thing as basically that, a big billboard that th is propping up. they dont expect to generate tangible results, its more about generating awareness. thats all fine, im perfectly in love with that. its just that ‘explain yourself’ attitude i read in between the lines i take issue with, they didnt have to do it like that.
i kind of see this whole thing as basically that, a big billboard that th is propping up. they dont expect to generate tangible results, its more about generating awareness. thats all fine, im perfectly in love with that. its just that ‘explain yourself’ attitude i read in between the lines i take issue with, they didnt have to do it like that.
i kind of see this whole thing as basically that, a big billboard that th is propping up. they dont expect to generate tangible results, its more about generating awareness. thats all fine, im perfectly in love with that. its just that ‘explain yourself’ attitude i read in between the lines i take issue with, they didnt have to do it like that.
Misspelling for the sake of euphemism makes that word so much more appropriate. Thanks for that.
Misspelling for the sake of euphemism makes that word so much more appropriate. Thanks for that.
Misspelling for the sake of euphemism makes that word so much more appropriate. Thanks for that.
“It’s about getting the word out to make book purchases whether you are a writer or not.”
The policy has no vision or long-term sustainability; it’s a short-term gimmick that will be forgotten about a year from now when publishers like DZANC are still running free workshops for young, potential writers and consumers of literature. There is a ton of noise in today’s world so it takes more than simply “getting the word out” to make any real change.
ha, i’d probably fit right in.
ha, i’d probably fit right in.
here’s more like how i would have done this release…
In the spirit of discovering new talent as well as supporting established authors and the bookstores who support them, Tin House Books is opening a submission reading period for unsolicited booklength manuscripts (something we’ve never done!). For this period only, we would like to encourage submissions be sent with a receipt from a book purchased from a local bookstore if one happens to be near you, preferably a bookstore you frequent often and are in love with! If there are no physical bookstores near you, or you cannot afford to purchase a book, that is okay, please send a manuscript anyway and we’ll take a look for this reading period only. Support local bookstores!
here’s more like how i would have done this release…
In the spirit of discovering new talent as well as supporting established authors and the bookstores who support them, Tin House Books is opening a submission reading period for unsolicited booklength manuscripts (something we’ve never done!). For this period only, we would like to encourage submissions be sent with a receipt from a book purchased from a local bookstore if one happens to be near you, preferably a bookstore you frequent often and are in love with! If there are no physical bookstores near you, or you cannot afford to purchase a book, that is okay, please send a manuscript anyway and we’ll take a look for this reading period only. Support local bookstores!
ha, i’d probably fit right in.
here’s more like how i would have done this release…
In the spirit of discovering new talent as well as supporting established authors and the bookstores who support them, Tin House Books is opening a submission reading period for unsolicited booklength manuscripts (something we’ve never done!). For this period only, we would like to encourage submissions be sent with a receipt from a book purchased from a local bookstore if one happens to be near you, preferably a bookstore you frequent often and are in love with! If there are no physical bookstores near you, or you cannot afford to purchase a book, that is okay, please send a manuscript anyway and we’ll take a look for this reading period only. Support local bookstores!
“If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
Non-sequitur plus Straw Man times Sanctimoniousness minus a Sense of Humor = Kidstuff. Hey, guess what, getting *everyone* who might submit a manuscript to Tin House to buy one book won’t “save” a bookstore of *any* size or description… not even for three months. Ie: it’s posturing. Posturing that’s not even funny enough (I like “funny”) to de-grease the condescension.
Maybe Tin House and other publishers should consider the fact that publishing stuff that isn’t the S*O*F*S might get some fresh traffic in those bookstores and up the sales. I spend a lot on books every year and I’ve learned that the best results are usually to be had by buying stuff that’s 30-70 years old. 80% of my risks on the New and/or Unknown I get burned. Largely due to hype from publishers and critical-shills (ever notice how hard it is to find *excerpts* from the products on sale at the Indie Publishers? Why is that, d’ya suppose…?).
“If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
Non-sequitur plus Straw Man times Sanctimoniousness minus a Sense of Humor = Kidstuff. Hey, guess what, getting *everyone* who might submit a manuscript to Tin House to buy one book won’t “save” a bookstore of *any* size or description… not even for three months. Ie: it’s posturing. Posturing that’s not even funny enough (I like “funny”) to de-grease the condescension.
Maybe Tin House and other publishers should consider the fact that publishing stuff that isn’t the S*O*F*S might get some fresh traffic in those bookstores and up the sales. I spend a lot on books every year and I’ve learned that the best results are usually to be had by buying stuff that’s 30-70 years old. 80% of my risks on the New and/or Unknown I get burned. Largely due to hype from publishers and critical-shills (ever notice how hard it is to find *excerpts* from the products on sale at the Indie Publishers? Why is that, d’ya suppose…?).
“If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
Non-sequitur plus Straw Man times Sanctimoniousness minus a Sense of Humor = Kidstuff. Hey, guess what, getting *everyone* who might submit a manuscript to Tin House to buy one book won’t “save” a bookstore of *any* size or description… not even for three months. Ie: it’s posturing. Posturing that’s not even funny enough (I like “funny”) to de-grease the condescension.
Maybe Tin House and other publishers should consider the fact that publishing stuff that isn’t the S*O*F*S might get some fresh traffic in those bookstores and up the sales. I spend a lot on books every year and I’ve learned that the best results are usually to be had by buying stuff that’s 30-70 years old. 80% of my risks on the New and/or Unknown I get burned. Largely due to hype from publishers and critical-shills (ever notice how hard it is to find *excerpts* from the products on sale at the Indie Publishers? Why is that, d’ya suppose…?).
Sorry I seem to have put you out, darby. I was commenter #1 and–a full day or more later–#100, so you’ll have to forgive me for responding to the general gist of the conversation, as I understood it. Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
Roxane, do you want to submit something to Tin House? I’ll grant you that the haiku thing is a little silly, so let me write your one sentence explanation for you: “There is, sadly, no bookstore in the town of _____, __ where I live, so I chose to order THE CANAL BY LEE ROURKE from Powell’s City of Books in Portland, Oregon, which is a real brick-and-mortar store (it is also in the same hometown as Tin House!) with reasonable shipping rates and this action seems to be in the general spirit of your requirement–a copy of my order confirmation is enclosed herewith.”
Sorry I seem to have put you out, darby. I was commenter #1 and–a full day or more later–#100, so you’ll have to forgive me for responding to the general gist of the conversation, as I understood it. Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
Roxane, do you want to submit something to Tin House? I’ll grant you that the haiku thing is a little silly, so let me write your one sentence explanation for you: “There is, sadly, no bookstore in the town of _____, __ where I live, so I chose to order THE CANAL BY LEE ROURKE from Powell’s City of Books in Portland, Oregon, which is a real brick-and-mortar store (it is also in the same hometown as Tin House!) with reasonable shipping rates and this action seems to be in the general spirit of your requirement–a copy of my order confirmation is enclosed herewith.”
There are certainly writers who brag about not reading other writers so they aren’t influence (or brag about not reading writers in their genre at least)
There are certainly writers who brag about not reading other writers so they aren’t influence (or brag about not reading writers in their genre at least)
Billboards usually don’t generate awareness beyond, “you need to buy this product.”
The overemphasis on purchase comes across as posturing, as the commentary below me has suggested.
Billboards usually don’t generate awareness beyond, “you need to buy this product.”
The overemphasis on purchase comes across as posturing, as the commentary below me has suggested.
Sorry I seem to have put you out, darby. I was commenter #1 and–a full day or more later–#100, so you’ll have to forgive me for responding to the general gist of the conversation, as I understood it. Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
Roxane, do you want to submit something to Tin House? I’ll grant you that the haiku thing is a little silly, so let me write your one sentence explanation for you: “There is, sadly, no bookstore in the town of _____, __ where I live, so I chose to order THE CANAL BY LEE ROURKE from Powell’s City of Books in Portland, Oregon, which is a real brick-and-mortar store (it is also in the same hometown as Tin House!) with reasonable shipping rates and this action seems to be in the general spirit of your requirement–a copy of my order confirmation is enclosed herewith.”
There are certainly writers who brag about not reading other writers so they aren’t influence (or brag about not reading writers in their genre at least)
Billboards usually don’t generate awareness beyond, “you need to buy this product.”
The overemphasis on purchase comes across as posturing, as the commentary below me has suggested.
*commenter
*commenter
think i’m gonna start posting as ‘shavengorilla2012’
think i’m gonna start posting as ‘shavengorilla2012’
*commenter
think i’m gonna start posting as ‘shavengorilla2012’
Tin House actually has a “New Voices” section that publishes new writers and in general is one of the best of the big mags for up and coming writers.
Tin House actually has a “New Voices” section that publishes new writers and in general is one of the best of the big mags for up and coming writers.
Tin House actually has a “New Voices” section that publishes new writers and in general is one of the best of the big mags for up and coming writers.
I was referring to a Danish King, you ignorant cunt… what are *you* talking about?
I was referring to a Danish King, you ignorant cunt… what are *you* talking about?
I was referring to a Danish King, you ignorant cunt… what are *you* talking about?
I’m going to start a blog titled BUY BOOKS OR KITTENS WILL DIE. Each post will be about how the world will end if at least 100 viewers don’t go out and buy a book they’ll never read, and how there is a special place in hell for people who don’t BUY BOOKS.
I’m going to start a blog titled BUY BOOKS OR KITTENS WILL DIE. Each post will be about how the world will end if at least 100 viewers don’t go out and buy a book they’ll never read, and how there is a special place in hell for people who don’t BUY BOOKS.
I’m going to start a blog titled BUY BOOKS OR KITTENS WILL DIE. Each post will be about how the world will end if at least 100 viewers don’t go out and buy a book they’ll never read, and how there is a special place in hell for people who don’t BUY BOOKS.
They’re trying to rally some support for dying bookstores. Bastards!
‘Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.’
my unenthusiasm is based on inexperience. I’ve never lived in a city or urban area. there just arent those kinds of bookstores around. its not my fault! SORRY!
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
AGAIN. it’s not about their sentiment or their intention. i am with them 100% on that. its the tact of making an act of charity a requirement to pass through a gate, and then asking me to explain myself, instantly puts me on the defensive, like i have to defend my position. i barely have a position on this because i didnt grow up around bookstores (SORRY!). i dont want an entity to make an act of charity a requirement. when i perform an act of charity i want to feel like i have a choice, and actually feel like i am performing an act of charity. when its a requirement for something unrelated, its no longer a charitable act, it becomes something to maneuver around (forge one! its okay to!). cant i just buy a book and attach a receipt and not have it be, like, mandatory to get my manuscript read? wouldnt that make me feel more like i was being charitable toward bookstores?
‘Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.’
my unenthusiasm is based on inexperience. I’ve never lived in a city or urban area. there just arent those kinds of bookstores around. its not my fault! SORRY!
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
AGAIN. it’s not about their sentiment or their intention. i am with them 100% on that. its the tact of making an act of charity a requirement to pass through a gate, and then asking me to explain myself, instantly puts me on the defensive, like i have to defend my position. i barely have a position on this because i didnt grow up around bookstores (SORRY!). i dont want an entity to make an act of charity a requirement. when i perform an act of charity i want to feel like i have a choice, and actually feel like i am performing an act of charity. when its a requirement for something unrelated, its no longer a charitable act, it becomes something to maneuver around (forge one! its okay to!). cant i just buy a book and attach a receipt and not have it be, like, mandatory to get my manuscript read? wouldnt that make me feel more like i was being charitable toward bookstores?
‘Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.’
my unenthusiasm is based on inexperience. I’ve never lived in a city or urban area. there just arent those kinds of bookstores around. its not my fault! SORRY!
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
AGAIN. it’s not about their sentiment or their intention. i am with them 100% on that. its the tact of making an act of charity a requirement to pass through a gate, and then asking me to explain myself, instantly puts me on the defensive, like i have to defend my position. i barely have a position on this because i didnt grow up around bookstores (SORRY!). i dont want an entity to make an act of charity a requirement. when i perform an act of charity i want to feel like i have a choice, and actually feel like i am performing an act of charity. when its a requirement for something unrelated, its no longer a charitable act, it becomes something to maneuver around (forge one! its okay to!). cant i just buy a book and attach a receipt and not have it be, like, mandatory to get my manuscript read? wouldnt that make me feel more like i was being charitable toward bookstores?
Awesome idea, though. Maybe an informal review–a reaction, as it were.
Justin, I’m over the Tin House thing — basically I think they meant well and made a few really stupid mistakes as a result, which is forgivable, but this pisses me off: “They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
I, uh, don’t hate making books and selling them. If that’s what you think the criticism is about, you’re way off base.
And this is how I see people defending this stuff here and elsewhere. If you don’t like it, you must hate reading! That’s bullshit, and it’s childish, and you’re making yourself and the people you defend look bad when it’s the best you can do.
Justin, I’m over the Tin House thing — basically I think they meant well and made a few really stupid mistakes as a result, which is forgivable, but this pisses me off: “They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
I, uh, don’t hate making books and selling them. If that’s what you think the criticism is about, you’re way off base.
And this is how I see people defending this stuff here and elsewhere. If you don’t like it, you must hate reading! That’s bullshit, and it’s childish, and you’re making yourself and the people you defend look bad when it’s the best you can do.
Justin, I’m over the Tin House thing — basically I think they meant well and made a few really stupid mistakes as a result, which is forgivable, but this pisses me off: “They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
I, uh, don’t hate making books and selling them. If that’s what you think the criticism is about, you’re way off base.
And this is how I see people defending this stuff here and elsewhere. If you don’t like it, you must hate reading! That’s bullshit, and it’s childish, and you’re making yourself and the people you defend look bad when it’s the best you can do.
Right. That would’ve been fine.
Right. That would’ve been fine.
Right. That would’ve been fine.
See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved? Moreover, why do you care at all about one temporary business practice at one particular company in an industry you think is largely without value? This would be like if I got a bug up my ass about the methodology of recruitment for a Noh theatre troupe. Maybe they’re doing something really awful w/r/t standard or ethical practice of Noh theatre troupe recruitment. How the hell would I know? And assuming someone told me, what could I possibly say by way of reaction other than, “so?”
Also, fyi- just because you’re too stupid to understand my line of thinking doesn’t make what I said a non-sequitur. Also, I’m not convinced you know what either the term “straw man” or the word “minus” mean. How’s that for sanctimonious?
See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved? Moreover, why do you care at all about one temporary business practice at one particular company in an industry you think is largely without value? This would be like if I got a bug up my ass about the methodology of recruitment for a Noh theatre troupe. Maybe they’re doing something really awful w/r/t standard or ethical practice of Noh theatre troupe recruitment. How the hell would I know? And assuming someone told me, what could I possibly say by way of reaction other than, “so?”
Also, fyi- just because you’re too stupid to understand my line of thinking doesn’t make what I said a non-sequitur. Also, I’m not convinced you know what either the term “straw man” or the word “minus” mean. How’s that for sanctimonious?
See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved? Moreover, why do you care at all about one temporary business practice at one particular company in an industry you think is largely without value? This would be like if I got a bug up my ass about the methodology of recruitment for a Noh theatre troupe. Maybe they’re doing something really awful w/r/t standard or ethical practice of Noh theatre troupe recruitment. How the hell would I know? And assuming someone told me, what could I possibly say by way of reaction other than, “so?”
Also, fyi- just because you’re too stupid to understand my line of thinking doesn’t make what I said a non-sequitur. Also, I’m not convinced you know what either the term “straw man” or the word “minus” mean. How’s that for sanctimonious?
So you think Noh theatre is largely without value? Yummy.
Justin, I think you need to calm down, have a glass of wine, and return to this thread later, because the arguments you’re responding pretty clearly aren’t the arguments that have been made. Augustine said that he spent a lot of money on books each year: I really doubt that he thus “hates publishing.” Also, the idea that it’s easier to get burned on contemp stuff is pretty much a truism, as time hasn’t sorted out the period pieces for us yet. Many people think that risk is part of the pleasure of reading contemp lit, but I can see how one could get burned out on it. (And reading HTMLGIANT is a pretty good way to get burned out on contemp lit, honestly: you guys promote and overpraise some senselessly crappy stuff.)
Also, Justin, why the fuck does every debate you get into come down to this “you’re fucking stupid, I’m smart, ha ha ha” shit? Come on man.
So you think Noh theatre is largely without value? Yummy.
Justin, I think you need to calm down, have a glass of wine, and return to this thread later, because the arguments you’re responding pretty clearly aren’t the arguments that have been made. Augustine said that he spent a lot of money on books each year: I really doubt that he thus “hates publishing.” Also, the idea that it’s easier to get burned on contemp stuff is pretty much a truism, as time hasn’t sorted out the period pieces for us yet. Many people think that risk is part of the pleasure of reading contemp lit, but I can see how one could get burned out on it. (And reading HTMLGIANT is a pretty good way to get burned out on contemp lit, honestly: you guys promote and overpraise some senselessly crappy stuff.)
Also, Justin, why the fuck does every debate you get into come down to this “you’re fucking stupid, I’m smart, ha ha ha” shit? Come on man.
So you think Noh theatre is largely without value? Yummy.
Justin, I think you need to calm down, have a glass of wine, and return to this thread later, because the arguments you’re responding pretty clearly aren’t the arguments that have been made. Augustine said that he spent a lot of money on books each year: I really doubt that he thus “hates publishing.” Also, the idea that it’s easier to get burned on contemp stuff is pretty much a truism, as time hasn’t sorted out the period pieces for us yet. Many people think that risk is part of the pleasure of reading contemp lit, but I can see how one could get burned out on it. (And reading HTMLGIANT is a pretty good way to get burned out on contemp lit, honestly: you guys promote and overpraise some senselessly crappy stuff.)
Also, Justin, why the fuck does every debate you get into come down to this “you’re fucking stupid, I’m smart, ha ha ha” shit? Come on man.
responding to*
responding to*
responding to*
Justin, why are bookstores your favorite place, rather than libraries? I like bookstores too, but I tend to prefer the place where I can read and study w/o being tempted into blowing my weekly budget in ten minutes. . . just curious.
Justin, why are bookstores your favorite place, rather than libraries? I like bookstores too, but I tend to prefer the place where I can read and study w/o being tempted into blowing my weekly budget in ten minutes. . . just curious.
Justin, why are bookstores your favorite place, rather than libraries? I like bookstores too, but I tend to prefer the place where I can read and study w/o being tempted into blowing my weekly budget in ten minutes. . . just curious.
“See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved?”
JT, you are a veritable non-sequitur/straw man-minting machine. I don’t “hate” publishing any more than I “hate” my corner grocery store or my dentist (actually, I do hate my dentist… Nazi bastard). And I’m open to buying and reading *any* masterpiece, no matter when it was published or what age/color/gender/level of attractiveness the writer is/was. But, you know: I think my standards are higher than yours… and also that I’ve been shaving a lot longer.
“See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved?”
JT, you are a veritable non-sequitur/straw man-minting machine. I don’t “hate” publishing any more than I “hate” my corner grocery store or my dentist (actually, I do hate my dentist… Nazi bastard). And I’m open to buying and reading *any* masterpiece, no matter when it was published or what age/color/gender/level of attractiveness the writer is/was. But, you know: I think my standards are higher than yours… and also that I’ve been shaving a lot longer.
“See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved?”
JT, you are a veritable non-sequitur/straw man-minting machine. I don’t “hate” publishing any more than I “hate” my corner grocery store or my dentist (actually, I do hate my dentist… Nazi bastard). And I’m open to buying and reading *any* masterpiece, no matter when it was published or what age/color/gender/level of attractiveness the writer is/was. But, you know: I think my standards are higher than yours… and also that I’ve been shaving a lot longer.
SHE’S RIGHT IT IS EXACTLY 100% LIKE THAT
Oregon or Brooklyn
PS Justin: Say Hi to Lee (Rourke) for me. He once asked to publish some of my “marvelous bloody stories”. He no longer likes me much (because I said “no”) but say “hi”.
PS Justin: Say Hi to Lee (Rourke) for me. He once asked to publish some of my “marvelous bloody stories”. He no longer likes me much (because I said “no”) but say “hi”.
PS Justin: Say Hi to Lee (Rourke) for me. He once asked to publish some of my “marvelous bloody stories”. He no longer likes me much (because I said “no”) but say “hi”.
OPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONSOPINIONS
I agree that Darby’s tone is more effective, yet there are still better ways for Tin House to reach out to indie bookstores. I’m sure there are indie bookstores in Portland that would be open to various Tin House programs/events within their stores to promote interest in literature.
Dear Tin House Saviors of Bookstores,
In addition to your summer workshop for adults who are already interested in literature– the one you charge for that’s staffed by well-known writers–run a free summer workshop for underprivileged kids that culminates in a final reading in a Portland indie bookstore–bam, you’ve associated a love of writing with the local retailer (and your magazine and press) without hammering self-righteous claims to BUY BOOKS down peoples’ throats. The kids will remember this event for the rest of their lives, as well as their parents, and that is “worth” a hell of a lot more than a single purchase of a book within a thirty day timeframe. Stop fucking obsessing on the short term and understand the bigger picture and its relationship to garnering a real relationship with readers and buyers.
You entered the arts knowing that there isn’t any real money to be made; in fact, the only real money ever made in the literary arts is on the work that lasts, the kind of work that transcends its price tag. If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.
I agree that Darby’s tone is more effective, yet there are still better ways for Tin House to reach out to indie bookstores. I’m sure there are indie bookstores in Portland that would be open to various Tin House programs/events within their stores to promote interest in literature.
Dear Tin House Saviors of Bookstores,
In addition to your summer workshop for adults who are already interested in literature– the one you charge for that’s staffed by well-known writers–run a free summer workshop for underprivileged kids that culminates in a final reading in a Portland indie bookstore–bam, you’ve associated a love of writing with the local retailer (and your magazine and press) without hammering self-righteous claims to BUY BOOKS down peoples’ throats. The kids will remember this event for the rest of their lives, as well as their parents, and that is “worth” a hell of a lot more than a single purchase of a book within a thirty day timeframe. Stop fucking obsessing on the short term and understand the bigger picture and its relationship to garnering a real relationship with readers and buyers.
You entered the arts knowing that there isn’t any real money to be made; in fact, the only real money ever made in the literary arts is on the work that lasts, the kind of work that transcends its price tag. If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.
I agree that Darby’s tone is more effective, yet there are still better ways for Tin House to reach out to indie bookstores. I’m sure there are indie bookstores in Portland that would be open to various Tin House programs/events within their stores to promote interest in literature.
Dear Tin House Saviors of Bookstores,
In addition to your summer workshop for adults who are already interested in literature– the one you charge for that’s staffed by well-known writers–run a free summer workshop for underprivileged kids that culminates in a final reading in a Portland indie bookstore–bam, you’ve associated a love of writing with the local retailer (and your magazine and press) without hammering self-righteous claims to BUY BOOKS down peoples’ throats. The kids will remember this event for the rest of their lives, as well as their parents, and that is “worth” a hell of a lot more than a single purchase of a book within a thirty day timeframe. Stop fucking obsessing on the short term and understand the bigger picture and its relationship to garnering a real relationship with readers and buyers.
You entered the arts knowing that there isn’t any real money to be made; in fact, the only real money ever made in the literary arts is on the work that lasts, the kind of work that transcends its price tag. If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.
I am blown away at how many people misread Tin House’s sentiment. Doesn’t bode well for readers.
Hey, Steve,
I try my best not to advertise over here, no links to my name or anything, but Dzanc Books does have a sample – ISUUS – see inside feature that covers the first chapter or story of just about every book for sale at our site.
Last issue, Mudluscious Press ran nothing but excerpts of books just out or soon to be.
The Collagist runs excerpts of novels due out either that month or the following month.
Somebody else had “an exclusive” excerpt from Small Beer Press’s novel, Meeks last month (I have that in quotes because The Collagist also had an excerpt of said novel last month so maybe the exclusive was simply for that particular excerpt?).
It seems there are at least a few places for you to take a scan and not have to bite the bullet in a store or online before you decide if you have a better than even chance of enjoying the book.
Hey, Steve,
I try my best not to advertise over here, no links to my name or anything, but Dzanc Books does have a sample – ISUUS – see inside feature that covers the first chapter or story of just about every book for sale at our site.
Last issue, Mudluscious Press ran nothing but excerpts of books just out or soon to be.
The Collagist runs excerpts of novels due out either that month or the following month.
Somebody else had “an exclusive” excerpt from Small Beer Press’s novel, Meeks last month (I have that in quotes because The Collagist also had an excerpt of said novel last month so maybe the exclusive was simply for that particular excerpt?).
It seems there are at least a few places for you to take a scan and not have to bite the bullet in a store or online before you decide if you have a better than even chance of enjoying the book.
Hey, Steve,
I try my best not to advertise over here, no links to my name or anything, but Dzanc Books does have a sample – ISUUS – see inside feature that covers the first chapter or story of just about every book for sale at our site.
Last issue, Mudluscious Press ran nothing but excerpts of books just out or soon to be.
The Collagist runs excerpts of novels due out either that month or the following month.
Somebody else had “an exclusive” excerpt from Small Beer Press’s novel, Meeks last month (I have that in quotes because The Collagist also had an excerpt of said novel last month so maybe the exclusive was simply for that particular excerpt?).
It seems there are at least a few places for you to take a scan and not have to bite the bullet in a store or online before you decide if you have a better than even chance of enjoying the book.
Did anyone read the actual press release at the TH site? it’s headlined “BUY A BOOK, SAVE A BOOKSTORE.” Hardly an ignoble position or goal. It’s here- http://www.tinhouse.com/all_news.htm Also, if you read the whole post at the TH site, you’ll see that this is part of a larger project designed to instill a sense of happy pride in patronizing brick-and-mortar bookstores. Ever heard of Record Store Day? Comic Book Day? This isn’t just one day, but it’s sort of like that. From their release: “Writers are invited to videotape, film, paint, photograph, animate, twitter, or memorialize in any way (that is logical and/or decipherable) the process of stepping into a bookstore and buying a book to send along for our possible amusement and/or use on our Web site.”
And to all the people waging the classism argument, I would like to suggest, with all due respect–which is to say, not much–that you are full of shit and that, what’s more, you damn well know it.
Let’s say I want to submit a book manuscript to Tin House. I enclose a copy of the receipt for the last book I bought new in a bookstore, in this case ON BEING BLUE by William Gass from McNally Jackson books on Prince Street, NYC. This paperback book has a sticker price of $11.95, and I got it at 10% off because it was a staff pick.
That makes OBB about the same price as a movie ticket, or a full-album download on iTunes, or two drinks at a reasonable bar. Granted, those are New York prices, but any urban center is going to be within about spitting range of those numbers (iTunes of course costs the same all over), and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.
I think it’s incredibly noble of Tin House to forgo any kind of “reading fee” that they would keep for themselves, and instead encourage you to simply present evidence of an active engagement with literary and bookstore culture today. Presumably, because you are an aspiring writer and an avid reader, you are not being “forced” to go out and buy a book just to submit your work–you probably buy books on a semi-regular basis, and so it is really no problem for you to simply dig out the last receipt you generated and send it along.
I think the people who are asking about the library card option are missing the point. This isn’t an elitist disenfranchisement scheme–it’s not a matter of proving your literacy to them. The fact that the majority of respondents here presume it is their “literary-ness” which is under question says worlds more about y’all than about TH, which I assume takes it for granted that people who write, read, and vice versa. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that they don’t really give a shit if you even read the book you’ve got a receipt for having bought. They are looking for displays of enthusiasm for the process of publishing on the consumer-side, from those who would inflict themselves on the world of publishing on the supplier-side.
If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?
see below
Yeah, we’re all too stupid to see that Tin House is attempting to save bookstores by stating the obvious to people who already support bookstores.
I’m blown away that people actually think this will accomplish anything in the long run.
100? Where is your spirit and fortitude, man? 125!
There is also a special place in Heaven for those kittens.
100? Where is your spirit and fortitude, man? 125!
There is also a special place in Heaven for those kittens.
100? Where is your spirit and fortitude, man? 125!
There is also a special place in Heaven for those kittens.
Justin, more and more you come across like a complete asshole.
Justin, more and more you come across like a complete asshole.
Justin, more and more you come across like a complete asshole.
finally, justin nails it. i mean, ive been asking myself why i get so riled up about this and it turns out its because i *hate* bookstores. they are horrible, awful buildings. and they smell like mold. clean your bookstores for god sake!
two things that this is not about: 1. th’s sentiment (which was obviously well-intentioned, no one is faulting them for that.). 2. the ease of fulfilling the requirement.
i dont have enthusiasm for the physicality of bookstores and yet i still consider myself a bibliophile. oh god, how is that possible! th wants me to have enthusiasm for something i dont have it for. sorry, i dont have that enthusiasm. i didnt know having that enthusiasm was a requirement for being a writer. i guess im blacklisted from this reading period then. oh well.
also, i dont think naysayers here are really that upset. its the internet, people speak up only when they can say something argumentative, and otherwise dont engage. in general, im getting more annoyed at the idea of htmlgiant commenters being lumped into one entity and considering them all a bunch of crazies. like everyone sits around in a room and waits for a post that has a slightly controversial element and then discuss how it will be attacked, and if we can get justin taylor to resond, then we win!
though, i find the idea of it being *noble* to forgo a reading fee kind of dumb. ‘no reading fee’ should be sop, dude.
i dont care that much about th’s thing, honestly, no one here does. its the internet and its htmlgiant, where it used to be fun to comment and get into fisticuffs, used to be.
Oregon, though likely many of the staff I knew are gone.
Oregon, though likely many of the staff I knew are gone.
Oregon, though likely many of the staff I knew are gone.
Good point about the idea that people are “angry.” I’m not angry and I doubt anyone else is on either side.
I simply don’t think this is going to do any good. The way to reach potential readers and book buyers is through sincere, long-term engagement, not by shouting at them to “buy books!!!!!!!!!!!” on the street corner or on some blog.
is it that hard to get your hands on a receipt for a book purchase? i mean, it’s not exactly plutonium. if you aren’t buying books you shouldn’t be wanting to publish one yourself.
is it that hard to get your hands on a receipt for a book purchase? i mean, it’s not exactly plutonium. if you aren’t buying books you shouldn’t be wanting to publish one yourself.
is it that hard to get your hands on a receipt for a book purchase? i mean, it’s not exactly plutonium. if you aren’t buying books you shouldn’t be wanting to publish one yourself.
@steven “I think my standards are higher than yours… and also that I’ve been shaving a lot longer.”
hah! remind me to get into a riposte jousting match with thee.
must be a nice job, darby, where you get to post all day on htmlgiant. your employer must be really pleased with your performance.
That’s all well and good. My main issue (and really I am not riled up in any way about this) is that not everyone lives near a bookstore. This is a well and good idea but it’s one predicated on certain assumptions. I think there’s room in this discussion to acknowledge that.
dzanc runs free workgroups?
Dude, that’s just not responsive to anything anyone is saying about why this is lame. Again, I’m over it at this point, but it’s really frustrating for people to keep pretending those who don’t like it are saying “I’m not buying books.” It’s precisely the fact that we *are* that makes this such a shitty practice.
Dude, that’s just not responsive to anything anyone is saying about why this is lame. Again, I’m over it at this point, but it’s really frustrating for people to keep pretending those who don’t like it are saying “I’m not buying books.” It’s precisely the fact that we *are* that makes this such a shitty practice.
Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?
Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?
Dude, that’s just not responsive to anything anyone is saying about why this is lame. Again, I’m over it at this point, but it’s really frustrating for people to keep pretending those who don’t like it are saying “I’m not buying books.” It’s precisely the fact that we *are* that makes this such a shitty practice.
Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?
he acknowledged it..
“and if you happen to live in the sticks, where you’re used to dollar drafts all the time and $4 steak dinners–hey, good for you, bud. Spend that extra scratch on a second book.”
What’s with the nonsequiturs on this thread?
Do you really intended to insult folks’ intelligence by reducing the issue to the easiness of finding a book receipt, and isn’t your response indicative of how useless this whole endeavor is in the first place? “Oh, shut up and pull a receipt out from your couch cushions and help support dying bookstores!”
What’s with the nonsequiturs on this thread?
Do you really intended to insult folks’ intelligence by reducing the issue to the easiness of finding a book receipt, and isn’t your response indicative of how useless this whole endeavor is in the first place? “Oh, shut up and pull a receipt out from your couch cushions and help support dying bookstores!”
What’s with the nonsequiturs on this thread?
Do you really intended to insult folks’ intelligence by reducing the issue to the easiness of finding a book receipt, and isn’t your response indicative of how useless this whole endeavor is in the first place? “Oh, shut up and pull a receipt out from your couch cushions and help support dying bookstores!”
i’m going to start an online journal and require all submitters prove they have purchased online at least four e-books (four e-chaps equal one/seventh of an e-book) in the past 18 months and that write a paragraph about why they don’t shop at Borders or Barnes and Noble to buy books like “Z2 is for Zoologist in the Second Lion’s Pit”
I was under the impression that they offered free workshops to inner city youth, but maybe I’m wrong.
Golly, I glossed over that gem of a statement. Well shucks. I best go get my $4 steak dinner.
haha. you have no idea.
haha
“Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?”
Yeah, for realz. I thought this place was supposed to some kind of subversive, eff-the-mainstream forum for people who don’t always fit in with the regular crowd. Come to find out it’s mainly a hype-machine site to just shill books and endlessly promote. Buying books seems to be more important than actually writing them.
“Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?”
Yeah, for realz. I thought this place was supposed to some kind of subversive, eff-the-mainstream forum for people who don’t always fit in with the regular crowd. Come to find out it’s mainly a hype-machine site to just shill books and endlessly promote. Buying books seems to be more important than actually writing them.
“Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?”
Yeah, for realz. I thought this place was supposed to some kind of subversive, eff-the-mainstream forum for people who don’t always fit in with the regular crowd. Come to find out it’s mainly a hype-machine site to just shill books and endlessly promote. Buying books seems to be more important than actually writing them.
You gotta love the conflation of buying literature with eating out. So much emphasis on merely buying the product, and not enough on engaging with it for life. It doesn’t matter if a bunch of people go out today and buy books as a result of this blog post if there’s no serious attempt to engage the buyer or reader beyond his or her purchase. It’s like Burger King selling a promo burger for a month–folks might rush out to try it but they’ll forget about it a two weeks later.
Let’s just all pitch in money to create billboards if all we really care about is getting people to “buy books.”
i kind of see this whole thing as basically that, a big billboard that th is propping up. they dont expect to generate tangible results, its more about generating awareness. thats all fine, im perfectly in love with that. its just that ‘explain yourself’ attitude i read in between the lines i take issue with, they didnt have to do it like that.
Misspelling for the sake of euphemism makes that word so much more appropriate. Thanks for that.
Yes, we run Writer in Residency Programs both in Ann Arbor (not exactly inner city, but it’s our home base) and outside (have run them in Ypsilanti and Brooklyn and are always keeping an eye toward other areas in need).
Essentially we pay an author or editor to go in and work with the teacher of a class or two, once per week, from October through May/June. Same class(es), same group(s) of kids working on either poetry or fiction, learning revision, getting excited about the written word, both in terms of reading and writing. At the end of the school year we publish an anthology of the student work, edited by the author that taught the class. We print enough for each student, the teacher, school library, etc. to get copies and maybe another 50 to 75 copies. We have a reading set up in a local store or place like The Neutral Zone in Ann Arbor so the kids also get an opportunity to read their work to an audience.
The class held in Brooklyn for a couple of years in a row (and will return this upcoming school year – we lost our author/teacher very close to the school year last year and didn’t have time to efficiently go through a vetting process for a replacement in time) was in a school that would be consider underprivileged. It’s the type of school we hope to continue to find to run such programs in. At least one of the students from that school (which was a high school, the two in Ann Arbor we have programs in are 4th and 5th/6th grade classes) received some form of scholarship based on work they created within the workshop/program.
The Dzanc Prize has also resulted in free workshops each year so far. The first year, Laura van den Berg taught a series of workshops in the New England prison system, and created an anthology of work. The second year, Kodi Scheer taught workshops at the UM Cancer Center – to patients, their families, and caregivers. This year, Eugene Cross has set up and is running a progressive series of creative workshops for refugees from Nepal, Sudan and Bhutan, in Erie. For his community service, Cross will conduct three 4-month workshops in concurrence with an ESL class currently being taught.
The Prize is a $5,000 award in two payments to the person that sets up and runs this literary community service. We assume some of the money allows the writer time to write, and some allows them the time to run the programs.
Yes, we run Writer in Residency Programs both in Ann Arbor (not exactly inner city, but it’s our home base) and outside (have run them in Ypsilanti and Brooklyn and are always keeping an eye toward other areas in need).
Essentially we pay an author or editor to go in and work with the teacher of a class or two, once per week, from October through May/June. Same class(es), same group(s) of kids working on either poetry or fiction, learning revision, getting excited about the written word, both in terms of reading and writing. At the end of the school year we publish an anthology of the student work, edited by the author that taught the class. We print enough for each student, the teacher, school library, etc. to get copies and maybe another 50 to 75 copies. We have a reading set up in a local store or place like The Neutral Zone in Ann Arbor so the kids also get an opportunity to read their work to an audience.
The class held in Brooklyn for a couple of years in a row (and will return this upcoming school year – we lost our author/teacher very close to the school year last year and didn’t have time to efficiently go through a vetting process for a replacement in time) was in a school that would be consider underprivileged. It’s the type of school we hope to continue to find to run such programs in. At least one of the students from that school (which was a high school, the two in Ann Arbor we have programs in are 4th and 5th/6th grade classes) received some form of scholarship based on work they created within the workshop/program.
The Dzanc Prize has also resulted in free workshops each year so far. The first year, Laura van den Berg taught a series of workshops in the New England prison system, and created an anthology of work. The second year, Kodi Scheer taught workshops at the UM Cancer Center – to patients, their families, and caregivers. This year, Eugene Cross has set up and is running a progressive series of creative workshops for refugees from Nepal, Sudan and Bhutan, in Erie. For his community service, Cross will conduct three 4-month workshops in concurrence with an ESL class currently being taught.
The Prize is a $5,000 award in two payments to the person that sets up and runs this literary community service. We assume some of the money allows the writer time to write, and some allows them the time to run the programs.
Yes, we run Writer in Residency Programs both in Ann Arbor (not exactly inner city, but it’s our home base) and outside (have run them in Ypsilanti and Brooklyn and are always keeping an eye toward other areas in need).
Essentially we pay an author or editor to go in and work with the teacher of a class or two, once per week, from October through May/June. Same class(es), same group(s) of kids working on either poetry or fiction, learning revision, getting excited about the written word, both in terms of reading and writing. At the end of the school year we publish an anthology of the student work, edited by the author that taught the class. We print enough for each student, the teacher, school library, etc. to get copies and maybe another 50 to 75 copies. We have a reading set up in a local store or place like The Neutral Zone in Ann Arbor so the kids also get an opportunity to read their work to an audience.
The class held in Brooklyn for a couple of years in a row (and will return this upcoming school year – we lost our author/teacher very close to the school year last year and didn’t have time to efficiently go through a vetting process for a replacement in time) was in a school that would be consider underprivileged. It’s the type of school we hope to continue to find to run such programs in. At least one of the students from that school (which was a high school, the two in Ann Arbor we have programs in are 4th and 5th/6th grade classes) received some form of scholarship based on work they created within the workshop/program.
The Dzanc Prize has also resulted in free workshops each year so far. The first year, Laura van den Berg taught a series of workshops in the New England prison system, and created an anthology of work. The second year, Kodi Scheer taught workshops at the UM Cancer Center – to patients, their families, and caregivers. This year, Eugene Cross has set up and is running a progressive series of creative workshops for refugees from Nepal, Sudan and Bhutan, in Erie. For his community service, Cross will conduct three 4-month workshops in concurrence with an ESL class currently being taught.
The Prize is a $5,000 award in two payments to the person that sets up and runs this literary community service. We assume some of the money allows the writer time to write, and some allows them the time to run the programs.
ha, i’d probably fit right in.
here’s more like how i would have done this release…
In the spirit of discovering new talent as well as supporting established authors and the bookstores who support them, Tin House Books is opening a submission reading period for unsolicited booklength manuscripts (something we’ve never done!). For this period only, we would like to encourage submissions be sent with a receipt from a book purchased from a local bookstore if one happens to be near you, preferably a bookstore you frequent often and are in love with! If there are no physical bookstores near you, or you cannot afford to purchase a book, that is okay, please send a manuscript anyway and we’ll take a look for this reading period only. Support local bookstores!
“If patronizing a physical bookstore in order to purchase a new book at its full retail value strikes you as morally derelict in some way, then you have no business asking Tin House Books–or anybody–to publish your work. It’s emphatically not a question about book-reading, but about book-buying. They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
Non-sequitur plus Straw Man times Sanctimoniousness minus a Sense of Humor = Kidstuff. Hey, guess what, getting *everyone* who might submit a manuscript to Tin House to buy one book won’t “save” a bookstore of *any* size or description… not even for three months. Ie: it’s posturing. Posturing that’s not even funny enough (I like “funny”) to de-grease the condescension.
Maybe Tin House and other publishers should consider the fact that publishing stuff that isn’t the S*O*F*S might get some fresh traffic in those bookstores and up the sales. I spend a lot on books every year and I’ve learned that the best results are usually to be had by buying stuff that’s 30-70 years old. 80% of my risks on the New and/or Unknown I get burned. Largely due to hype from publishers and critical-shills (ever notice how hard it is to find *excerpts* from the products on sale at the Indie Publishers? Why is that, d’ya suppose…?).
Sorry I seem to have put you out, darby. I was commenter #1 and–a full day or more later–#100, so you’ll have to forgive me for responding to the general gist of the conversation, as I understood it. Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
Roxane, do you want to submit something to Tin House? I’ll grant you that the haiku thing is a little silly, so let me write your one sentence explanation for you: “There is, sadly, no bookstore in the town of _____, __ where I live, so I chose to order THE CANAL BY LEE ROURKE from Powell’s City of Books in Portland, Oregon, which is a real brick-and-mortar store (it is also in the same hometown as Tin House!) with reasonable shipping rates and this action seems to be in the general spirit of your requirement–a copy of my order confirmation is enclosed herewith.”
There are certainly writers who brag about not reading other writers so they aren’t influence (or brag about not reading writers in their genre at least)
Billboards usually don’t generate awareness beyond, “you need to buy this product.”
The overemphasis on purchase comes across as posturing, as the commentary below me has suggested.
*commenter
think i’m gonna start posting as ‘shavengorilla2012’
Tin House actually has a “New Voices” section that publishes new writers and in general is one of the best of the big mags for up and coming writers.
I was referring to a Danish King, you ignorant cunt… what are *you* talking about?
haha. now yr just fucking around.
IT’S LIKE THE RACETRACK. JUST HANG AROUND OUTSIDE.
IT’S LIKE THE RACETRACK. JUST HANG AROUND OUTSIDE.
IT’S LIKE THE RACETRACK. JUST HANG AROUND OUTSIDE.
I’m going to start a blog titled BUY BOOKS OR KITTENS WILL DIE. Each post will be about how the world will end if at least 100 viewers don’t go out and buy a book they’ll never read, and how there is a special place in hell for people who don’t BUY BOOKS.
‘Bookstores are my very favorite places in the world, more or less, and so your un-enthusiasm for them is more than a little bit baffling and sad to me. But hey, to each their own.’
my unenthusiasm is based on inexperience. I’ve never lived in a city or urban area. there just arent those kinds of bookstores around. its not my fault! SORRY!
Anyway, my basic point seems to still stand. If you think that what this particular company is doing, and what they stand for, is in some way opposed to your own interests–or is just lame–then don’t try and begin a working relationship with them.
AGAIN. it’s not about their sentiment or their intention. i am with them 100% on that. its the tact of making an act of charity a requirement to pass through a gate, and then asking me to explain myself, instantly puts me on the defensive, like i have to defend my position. i barely have a position on this because i didnt grow up around bookstores (SORRY!). i dont want an entity to make an act of charity a requirement. when i perform an act of charity i want to feel like i have a choice, and actually feel like i am performing an act of charity. when its a requirement for something unrelated, its no longer a charitable act, it becomes something to maneuver around (forge one! its okay to!). cant i just buy a book and attach a receipt and not have it be, like, mandatory to get my manuscript read? wouldnt that make me feel more like i was being charitable toward bookstores?
I can’t pretend to know tin house’s financial situation, but I think framing it this way probably isn’t fair or accurate. I’m looking at the ads in their magazine and a list of their books online. I’m not saying everything they do looks that interesting to me, but if their driving interest is anything more than liking literature, they need a new financial advisor. I just read the actual press release…agreed it’s not that funny, but not nearly as humorless as this thread.
I can’t pretend to know tin house’s financial situation, but I think framing it this way probably isn’t fair or accurate. I’m looking at the ads in their magazine and a list of their books online. I’m not saying everything they do looks that interesting to me, but if their driving interest is anything more than liking literature, they need a new financial advisor. I just read the actual press release…agreed it’s not that funny, but not nearly as humorless as this thread.
I can’t pretend to know tin house’s financial situation, but I think framing it this way probably isn’t fair or accurate. I’m looking at the ads in their magazine and a list of their books online. I’m not saying everything they do looks that interesting to me, but if their driving interest is anything more than liking literature, they need a new financial advisor. I just read the actual press release…agreed it’s not that funny, but not nearly as humorless as this thread.
Justin, I’m over the Tin House thing — basically I think they meant well and made a few really stupid mistakes as a result, which is forgivable, but this pisses me off: “They are book-makers, and book-sellers, and they are looking for people who are interested in what they do: make books, and make books available to be bought. If you hate those things, and hate them for doing those things, why would you want to court their attention in the first place, or pursue this course for your own work?”
I, uh, don’t hate making books and selling them. If that’s what you think the criticism is about, you’re way off base.
And this is how I see people defending this stuff here and elsewhere. If you don’t like it, you must hate reading! That’s bullshit, and it’s childish, and you’re making yourself and the people you defend look bad when it’s the best you can do.
Right. That would’ve been fine.
See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved? Moreover, why do you care at all about one temporary business practice at one particular company in an industry you think is largely without value? This would be like if I got a bug up my ass about the methodology of recruitment for a Noh theatre troupe. Maybe they’re doing something really awful w/r/t standard or ethical practice of Noh theatre troupe recruitment. How the hell would I know? And assuming someone told me, what could I possibly say by way of reaction other than, “so?”
Also, fyi- just because you’re too stupid to understand my line of thinking doesn’t make what I said a non-sequitur. Also, I’m not convinced you know what either the term “straw man” or the word “minus” mean. How’s that for sanctimonious?
the fucked up thing is that for most – every penny you can make writing … you spend dimes and nickels on books of “friends”
Is it just me, or has J.T. become an asshole since getting on Harper Perennial?
Is it just me, or has J.T. become an asshole since getting on Harper Perennial?
Is it just me, or has J.T. become an asshole since getting on Harper Perennial?
I see that Justin Taylor mentioned ON BEING BLUE, a marvelous book, every sentence wry yet sagacious, every choice informed by exquisite taste. Why don’t we all talk about that instead?
I see that Justin Taylor mentioned ON BEING BLUE, a marvelous book, every sentence wry yet sagacious, every choice informed by exquisite taste. Why don’t we all talk about that instead?
I see that Justin Taylor mentioned ON BEING BLUE, a marvelous book, every sentence wry yet sagacious, every choice informed by exquisite taste. Why don’t we all talk about that instead?
So you think Noh theatre is largely without value? Yummy.
Justin, I think you need to calm down, have a glass of wine, and return to this thread later, because the arguments you’re responding pretty clearly aren’t the arguments that have been made. Augustine said that he spent a lot of money on books each year: I really doubt that he thus “hates publishing.” Also, the idea that it’s easier to get burned on contemp stuff is pretty much a truism, as time hasn’t sorted out the period pieces for us yet. Many people think that risk is part of the pleasure of reading contemp lit, but I can see how one could get burned out on it. (And reading HTMLGIANT is a pretty good way to get burned out on contemp lit, honestly: you guys promote and overpraise some senselessly crappy stuff.)
Also, Justin, why the fuck does every debate you get into come down to this “you’re fucking stupid, I’m smart, ha ha ha” shit? Come on man.
responding to*
Justin, why are bookstores your favorite place, rather than libraries? I like bookstores too, but I tend to prefer the place where I can read and study w/o being tempted into blowing my weekly budget in ten minutes. . . just curious.
hmm, well JT has something to do with that.
hmm, well JT has something to do with that.
hmm, JT will undoubtedly call me stupid for not being clearer. JT’s attitude/comments on this thread and others of late make it hard to focus on other aspects of JT’s world.
hmm, JT will undoubtedly call me stupid for not being clearer. JT’s attitude/comments on this thread and others of late make it hard to focus on other aspects of JT’s world.
hmm, JT will undoubtedly call me stupid for not being clearer. JT’s attitude/comments on this thread and others of late make it hard to focus on other aspects of JT’s world.
Do you really think that? I mean, I suppose you do or you wouldn’t have posted it, but (and I admit, I don’t really KNOW Justin all that well – mostly from emailing over the years and an occasional meeting at events like AWP) Justin has always seemed to argue pretty passionately about what he thinks – and I’m certainly not saying I always agree with him, because I do not, in many cases, agree with him. I don’t think there’s been any difference in his approach to his thought process from pre-HP days.
Again, many that post and comment here probably know the guy better than I do, but whether or not you think he’s an asshole, or not one, or maybe even an occasional asshole, I’d guess that you had that same opinion a year ago.
Do you really think that? I mean, I suppose you do or you wouldn’t have posted it, but (and I admit, I don’t really KNOW Justin all that well – mostly from emailing over the years and an occasional meeting at events like AWP) Justin has always seemed to argue pretty passionately about what he thinks – and I’m certainly not saying I always agree with him, because I do not, in many cases, agree with him. I don’t think there’s been any difference in his approach to his thought process from pre-HP days.
Again, many that post and comment here probably know the guy better than I do, but whether or not you think he’s an asshole, or not one, or maybe even an occasional asshole, I’d guess that you had that same opinion a year ago.
“See, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You obviously hate publishing, and pretty much all contemporary literature, so why would you want to be involved?”
JT, you are a veritable non-sequitur/straw man-minting machine. I don’t “hate” publishing any more than I “hate” my corner grocery store or my dentist (actually, I do hate my dentist… Nazi bastard). And I’m open to buying and reading *any* masterpiece, no matter when it was published or what age/color/gender/level of attractiveness the writer is/was. But, you know: I think my standards are higher than yours… and also that I’ve been shaving a lot longer.
PS Justin: Say Hi to Lee (Rourke) for me. He once asked to publish some of my “marvelous bloody stories”. He no longer likes me much (because I said “no”) but say “hi”.
I agree that Darby’s tone is more effective, yet there are still better ways for Tin House to reach out to indie bookstores. I’m sure there are indie bookstores in Portland that would be open to various Tin House programs/events within their stores to promote interest in literature.
Dear Tin House Saviors of Bookstores,
In addition to your summer workshop for adults who are already interested in literature– the one you charge for that’s staffed by well-known writers–run a free summer workshop for underprivileged kids that culminates in a final reading in a Portland indie bookstore–bam, you’ve associated a love of writing with the local retailer (and your magazine and press) without hammering self-righteous claims to BUY BOOKS down peoples’ throats. The kids will remember this event for the rest of their lives, as well as their parents, and that is “worth” a hell of a lot more than a single purchase of a book within a thirty day timeframe. Stop fucking obsessing on the short term and understand the bigger picture and its relationship to garnering a real relationship with readers and buyers.
You entered the arts knowing that there isn’t any real money to be made; in fact, the only real money ever made in the literary arts is on the work that lasts, the kind of work that transcends its price tag. If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.
Thanks, Dan. I appreciate your taking the time to say that.
Blake- yes, that’s it exactly.
Thanks, Dan. I appreciate your taking the time to say that.
Blake- yes, that’s it exactly.
Andrew,
I’m big on humor. Seriously. I pretty much require it from my favorite writers (the Southern writer in me).
But I didn’t sense that TH was trying to be funny, and I have a pretty good humor radar. Came across more like smug snark. Plus, Garrett’s post about TH didn’t surprise me at all–I’ve heard similar stories about TH, starting with THE MAN. That’s all I’ll say.
If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out. Some of us are probably just too ambitious for TH’s approach.
Andrew,
I’m big on humor. Seriously. I pretty much require it from my favorite writers (the Southern writer in me).
But I didn’t sense that TH was trying to be funny, and I have a pretty good humor radar. Came across more like smug snark. Plus, Garrett’s post about TH didn’t surprise me at all–I’ve heard similar stories about TH, starting with THE MAN. That’s all I’ll say.
If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out. Some of us are probably just too ambitious for TH’s approach.
Andrew,
I’m big on humor. Seriously. I pretty much require it from my favorite writers (the Southern writer in me).
But I didn’t sense that TH was trying to be funny, and I have a pretty good humor radar. Came across more like smug snark. Plus, Garrett’s post about TH didn’t surprise me at all–I’ve heard similar stories about TH, starting with THE MAN. That’s all I’ll say.
If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out. Some of us are probably just too ambitious for TH’s approach.
ryan- I like bookstores because I like buying books. I’d rather own a book than pretty much anything else. I like to read them and re-read them, and I like to have them in my house and fold their pages down and scribble shit in them and highlight and underline in them and have them be part of my personal library, which is a work in perpetual progress and, taken in aggregate, is my most prized possession. I’m not a rich guy, but buying a book–whether it’s a used paperback on a dollar rack or a brandnew hardcover–is one act of consumerism that I never–NEVER–feel guilty or even ambivalent about. Buying a book is, for me, a kind of sacrament, and I don’t care how hokey or whatever that sounds. I’m not “against’ libraries, the same way I’m not “against” e-books, but they’re not the mode I prefer. The physical space that the shelves full of books take up is an integral part of their value for me. If a genie popped up and offered me an indestructible Super-Kindle that would instantly have my entire library on it, so I could recover all my bookshelf-given floor space, I would say thanks but no thanks. I like the ritual of picking out which books to bring on a trip–I’m leaving the country for a month in ten days, and my entire bed is covered in books right now, deciding which ones to bring. I think I want about six, a few short novels, a couple poetry collections, and maybe one or two heady/meaty/long things just in case I feel like really going for it. I haven’t thought about any other aspect of the packing, and won’t until probably nine days from now. I’m not asking anyone else to live their life this way, but that’s where I’m coming from.
ryan- I like bookstores because I like buying books. I’d rather own a book than pretty much anything else. I like to read them and re-read them, and I like to have them in my house and fold their pages down and scribble shit in them and highlight and underline in them and have them be part of my personal library, which is a work in perpetual progress and, taken in aggregate, is my most prized possession. I’m not a rich guy, but buying a book–whether it’s a used paperback on a dollar rack or a brandnew hardcover–is one act of consumerism that I never–NEVER–feel guilty or even ambivalent about. Buying a book is, for me, a kind of sacrament, and I don’t care how hokey or whatever that sounds. I’m not “against’ libraries, the same way I’m not “against” e-books, but they’re not the mode I prefer. The physical space that the shelves full of books take up is an integral part of their value for me. If a genie popped up and offered me an indestructible Super-Kindle that would instantly have my entire library on it, so I could recover all my bookshelf-given floor space, I would say thanks but no thanks. I like the ritual of picking out which books to bring on a trip–I’m leaving the country for a month in ten days, and my entire bed is covered in books right now, deciding which ones to bring. I think I want about six, a few short novels, a couple poetry collections, and maybe one or two heady/meaty/long things just in case I feel like really going for it. I haven’t thought about any other aspect of the packing, and won’t until probably nine days from now. I’m not asking anyone else to live their life this way, but that’s where I’m coming from.
ryan- I like bookstores because I like buying books. I’d rather own a book than pretty much anything else. I like to read them and re-read them, and I like to have them in my house and fold their pages down and scribble shit in them and highlight and underline in them and have them be part of my personal library, which is a work in perpetual progress and, taken in aggregate, is my most prized possession. I’m not a rich guy, but buying a book–whether it’s a used paperback on a dollar rack or a brandnew hardcover–is one act of consumerism that I never–NEVER–feel guilty or even ambivalent about. Buying a book is, for me, a kind of sacrament, and I don’t care how hokey or whatever that sounds. I’m not “against’ libraries, the same way I’m not “against” e-books, but they’re not the mode I prefer. The physical space that the shelves full of books take up is an integral part of their value for me. If a genie popped up and offered me an indestructible Super-Kindle that would instantly have my entire library on it, so I could recover all my bookshelf-given floor space, I would say thanks but no thanks. I like the ritual of picking out which books to bring on a trip–I’m leaving the country for a month in ten days, and my entire bed is covered in books right now, deciding which ones to bring. I think I want about six, a few short novels, a couple poetry collections, and maybe one or two heady/meaty/long things just in case I feel like really going for it. I haven’t thought about any other aspect of the packing, and won’t until probably nine days from now. I’m not asking anyone else to live their life this way, but that’s where I’m coming from.
“If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out.”
“If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.”
these two quotes one after another are really funny.
“If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out.”
“If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.”
these two quotes one after another are really funny.
“If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out.”
“If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.”
these two quotes one after another are really funny.
i find it to be exactly the point.
i find it to be exactly the point.
Okay.
Let’s just forget I mentioned this.
How about that World Cup?
Okay.
Let’s just forget I mentioned this.
How about that World Cup?
your book would not be able to be published if everyone simply only ever used library books. fact.
your book would not be able to be published if everyone simply only ever used library books. fact.
i find it to be exactly the point.
Okay.
Let’s just forget I mentioned this.
How about that World Cup?
your book would not be able to be published if everyone simply only ever used library books. fact.
How so?
How so?
How so?
Hey, Steve,
I try my best not to advertise over here, no links to my name or anything, but Dzanc Books does have a sample – ISUUS – see inside feature that covers the first chapter or story of just about every book for sale at our site.
Last issue, Mudluscious Press ran nothing but excerpts of books just out or soon to be.
The Collagist runs excerpts of novels due out either that month or the following month.
Somebody else had “an exclusive” excerpt from Small Beer Press’s novel, Meeks last month (I have that in quotes because The Collagist also had an excerpt of said novel last month so maybe the exclusive was simply for that particular excerpt?).
It seems there are at least a few places for you to take a scan and not have to bite the bullet in a store or online before you decide if you have a better than even chance of enjoying the book.
Writing is less important than being a kind and just person. Sayin’.
Writing is less important than being a kind and just person. Sayin’.
Writing is less important than being a kind and just person. Sayin’.
i mean, why publish it if you believe in the library system over the bookstore? photocopy a zine and give it to some dudes and stick it in with the other books in the spots where people gather.
that also said: not all books worth reading appear in libraries. if your reading history can be all found within the walls of a library, or all of them, you aren’t reading very hard.
i mean, why publish it if you believe in the library system over the bookstore? photocopy a zine and give it to some dudes and stick it in with the other books in the spots where people gather.
that also said: not all books worth reading appear in libraries. if your reading history can be all found within the walls of a library, or all of them, you aren’t reading very hard.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
i mean, why publish it if you believe in the library system over the bookstore? photocopy a zine and give it to some dudes and stick it in with the other books in the spots where people gather.
that also said: not all books worth reading appear in libraries. if your reading history can be all found within the walls of a library, or all of them, you aren’t reading very hard.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
Everyone: please order one of Blake Butler’s book so he’ll stop trolling.
Everyone: please order one of Blake Butler’s book so he’ll stop trolling.
Everyone: please order one of Blake Butler’s book so he’ll stop trolling.
some people aren’t in a socioeconomic position to buy many books. almost all of the books i buy are used
some people aren’t in a socioeconomic position to buy many books. almost all of the books i buy are used
some people aren’t in a socioeconomic position to buy many books. almost all of the books i buy are used
well, I’ll give you this, Bill- it was almost certainly a mistake on my part to kick this hornets’ nest in the first place. Longtime readers of this site (not sure if this includes you or not) have probably noticed that I’ve made a point over the last few months of trying not to get sucked into these kinds of protracted arguments like I used to do all the time–it’s because (1) they were taking up a lot of my time, and (2) because I think they bring out a lot of ugliness in people–me as much as anyone, maybe more. All that said, however, having made the decision in this case to engage, I’m going to play to win. I’m all for rigorous disagreement- cf. my more or less civil (if charged) interactions with darby, Roxane, and now ryan. But I don’t owe any deference to ignorant, venomous fuckwits like several of the commenters above, who want to attack me personally and/or bitch about this site in general, just because it fails to conform to their inch-wide (and inch-deep) conception of “indie” or whatever their real problem with me/us is. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re wrong. This was a silly distraction that I shouldn’t have let into my day. Anyway, cheers man. I’ll see you round.
PS- On Being Blue is a wonderful book. Highly recommended.
well, I’ll give you this, Bill- it was almost certainly a mistake on my part to kick this hornets’ nest in the first place. Longtime readers of this site (not sure if this includes you or not) have probably noticed that I’ve made a point over the last few months of trying not to get sucked into these kinds of protracted arguments like I used to do all the time–it’s because (1) they were taking up a lot of my time, and (2) because I think they bring out a lot of ugliness in people–me as much as anyone, maybe more. All that said, however, having made the decision in this case to engage, I’m going to play to win. I’m all for rigorous disagreement- cf. my more or less civil (if charged) interactions with darby, Roxane, and now ryan. But I don’t owe any deference to ignorant, venomous fuckwits like several of the commenters above, who want to attack me personally and/or bitch about this site in general, just because it fails to conform to their inch-wide (and inch-deep) conception of “indie” or whatever their real problem with me/us is. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re wrong. This was a silly distraction that I shouldn’t have let into my day. Anyway, cheers man. I’ll see you round.
PS- On Being Blue is a wonderful book. Highly recommended.
well, I’ll give you this, Bill- it was almost certainly a mistake on my part to kick this hornets’ nest in the first place. Longtime readers of this site (not sure if this includes you or not) have probably noticed that I’ve made a point over the last few months of trying not to get sucked into these kinds of protracted arguments like I used to do all the time–it’s because (1) they were taking up a lot of my time, and (2) because I think they bring out a lot of ugliness in people–me as much as anyone, maybe more. All that said, however, having made the decision in this case to engage, I’m going to play to win. I’m all for rigorous disagreement- cf. my more or less civil (if charged) interactions with darby, Roxane, and now ryan. But I don’t owe any deference to ignorant, venomous fuckwits like several of the commenters above, who want to attack me personally and/or bitch about this site in general, just because it fails to conform to their inch-wide (and inch-deep) conception of “indie” or whatever their real problem with me/us is. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re wrong. This was a silly distraction that I shouldn’t have let into my day. Anyway, cheers man. I’ll see you round.
PS- On Being Blue is a wonderful book. Highly recommended.
That Ghana Uruguay game was one of the most electrifying sporting events I’ve ever seen.
That Ghana Uruguay game was one of the most electrifying sporting events I’ve ever seen.
That Ghana Uruguay game was one of the most electrifying sporting events I’ve ever seen.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
—————–
Okay, I understand now–we need you to tell us what books to order (i.e., what books are worth studying).
Because obviously If I don’t buy a book to meet TH’s guidelines, I’m not buying books at all (your argument that “you’re buying books anyway, just show them a receipt,” is fucking idiotic because a) the whole point of their guidelines is for people to order at least one more book in response to their guidelines and b) most writers who submit to TH buy books anyway. The people who really need to be reached don’t even fucking know that motherfucking TH exists; you can’t possibly be this obtuse.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
—————–
Okay, I understand now–we need you to tell us what books to order (i.e., what books are worth studying).
Because obviously If I don’t buy a book to meet TH’s guidelines, I’m not buying books at all (your argument that “you’re buying books anyway, just show them a receipt,” is fucking idiotic because a) the whole point of their guidelines is for people to order at least one more book in response to their guidelines and b) most writers who submit to TH buy books anyway. The people who really need to be reached don’t even fucking know that motherfucking TH exists; you can’t possibly be this obtuse.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
—————–
Okay, I understand now–we need you to tell us what books to order (i.e., what books are worth studying).
Because obviously If I don’t buy a book to meet TH’s guidelines, I’m not buying books at all (your argument that “you’re buying books anyway, just show them a receipt,” is fucking idiotic because a) the whole point of their guidelines is for people to order at least one more book in response to their guidelines and b) most writers who submit to TH buy books anyway. The people who really need to be reached don’t even fucking know that motherfucking TH exists; you can’t possibly be this obtuse.
100? Where is your spirit and fortitude, man? 125!
There is also a special place in Heaven for those kittens.
well, its funny to me anyhow because in that first statement you seem to lookdown upon people who like to think theyre doing somethign worthwhile by purchasing from an independent bookstore. i got this feeling from the language you used (“pretend” “knock themselves out”) and the assumptions you make about those types of people. this seems lazy to me, sort of smug and snarky, but maybe i misread you?
and in the second statement you scold, in an attempt to be funny, i guess, another entity for engaging in the same sort of selfrighteous behavior.
the two statements are contradictory, i think. its like they were posted by two different people, which i thought was funny.
the people who do buy from independent bookstores are part of the same project as those who have more ambitous ways of helping support independent stores/literature. why mock their humble actions?
well, its funny to me anyhow because in that first statement you seem to lookdown upon people who like to think theyre doing somethign worthwhile by purchasing from an independent bookstore. i got this feeling from the language you used (“pretend” “knock themselves out”) and the assumptions you make about those types of people. this seems lazy to me, sort of smug and snarky, but maybe i misread you?
and in the second statement you scold, in an attempt to be funny, i guess, another entity for engaging in the same sort of selfrighteous behavior.
the two statements are contradictory, i think. its like they were posted by two different people, which i thought was funny.
the people who do buy from independent bookstores are part of the same project as those who have more ambitous ways of helping support independent stores/literature. why mock their humble actions?
Justin, more and more you come across like a complete asshole.
the problem i have with the ease philosophy is that it gets too far away from the act of charity itself. the point of all this is that it should be an act of charity, it should be a person *wanting* to do something good for someone or something. writers should *want* to help bookstores, they shouldnt just simply help them regardless of their wants because its easy to. reducing the decision to do a good deed down to ‘do it because its easy to’ takes away from that basic charitable instinct people have. your ethic can be reduced to its okay that i dont give a fuck about bookstores, i just helped them because it was easy to. sorry man, i *want* to help bookstores, i dont want to just do an easy thing for bookstores, i want to do hard things, i want to feel good that i did hard things, i want to go buy a hundred books from them and give them hugs and not feel like i have to give my receipts to someone. i want to know that i did something good for someone for myself, i dont want my good deed to be like, plth, i did it because i care more about my manuscript being read. i did it because tin house waved a carrot in front of my face. no one should ever do anything because its easy to. people should make sacrifices for their bookstores. i should buy more books from them. everyone should. but we should do it *because* we love bookstores.
the problem i have with the ease philosophy is that it gets too far away from the act of charity itself. the point of all this is that it should be an act of charity, it should be a person *wanting* to do something good for someone or something. writers should *want* to help bookstores, they shouldnt just simply help them regardless of their wants because its easy to. reducing the decision to do a good deed down to ‘do it because its easy to’ takes away from that basic charitable instinct people have. your ethic can be reduced to its okay that i dont give a fuck about bookstores, i just helped them because it was easy to. sorry man, i *want* to help bookstores, i dont want to just do an easy thing for bookstores, i want to do hard things, i want to feel good that i did hard things, i want to go buy a hundred books from them and give them hugs and not feel like i have to give my receipts to someone. i want to know that i did something good for someone for myself, i dont want my good deed to be like, plth, i did it because i care more about my manuscript being read. i did it because tin house waved a carrot in front of my face. no one should ever do anything because its easy to. people should make sacrifices for their bookstores. i should buy more books from them. everyone should. but we should do it *because* we love bookstores.
the problem i have with the ease philosophy is that it gets too far away from the act of charity itself. the point of all this is that it should be an act of charity, it should be a person *wanting* to do something good for someone or something. writers should *want* to help bookstores, they shouldnt just simply help them regardless of their wants because its easy to. reducing the decision to do a good deed down to ‘do it because its easy to’ takes away from that basic charitable instinct people have. your ethic can be reduced to its okay that i dont give a fuck about bookstores, i just helped them because it was easy to. sorry man, i *want* to help bookstores, i dont want to just do an easy thing for bookstores, i want to do hard things, i want to feel good that i did hard things, i want to go buy a hundred books from them and give them hugs and not feel like i have to give my receipts to someone. i want to know that i did something good for someone for myself, i dont want my good deed to be like, plth, i did it because i care more about my manuscript being read. i did it because tin house waved a carrot in front of my face. no one should ever do anything because its easy to. people should make sacrifices for their bookstores. i should buy more books from them. everyone should. but we should do it *because* we love bookstores.
http://bit.ly/15p127
http://bit.ly/15p127
http://bit.ly/15p127
They’re not contradictory at all; you just cherry picked two sections of my posts out-of-context and I’ve gone to great lengths to argue (along with others) THAT EVERYONE submitting to TH already buys books, often from indie stores.
Jesus Christ, man.
The only thing that’s ironic is that the people arguing on this thread, for the most part, aren’t the ones who need to be reached, yet are the primary target of Tin House.
I realize this is all rocket science.
And yeah I’m in full-on snark mode now because, like Mike M, nothing’s more annoying than people who aren’t even really responding to what you’re saying. I can handle people disagreeing with me all day long.
They’re not contradictory at all; you just cherry picked two sections of my posts out-of-context and I’ve gone to great lengths to argue (along with others) THAT EVERYONE submitting to TH already buys books, often from indie stores.
Jesus Christ, man.
The only thing that’s ironic is that the people arguing on this thread, for the most part, aren’t the ones who need to be reached, yet are the primary target of Tin House.
I realize this is all rocket science.
And yeah I’m in full-on snark mode now because, like Mike M, nothing’s more annoying than people who aren’t even really responding to what you’re saying. I can handle people disagreeing with me all day long.
They’re not contradictory at all; you just cherry picked two sections of my posts out-of-context and I’ve gone to great lengths to argue (along with others) THAT EVERYONE submitting to TH already buys books, often from indie stores.
Jesus Christ, man.
The only thing that’s ironic is that the people arguing on this thread, for the most part, aren’t the ones who need to be reached, yet are the primary target of Tin House.
I realize this is all rocket science.
And yeah I’m in full-on snark mode now because, like Mike M, nothing’s more annoying than people who aren’t even really responding to what you’re saying. I can handle people disagreeing with me all day long.
what i want tin house to do is help me care about bookstores. i want to go help them or things i feel strongly about because im a human being. help me feel strongly about them. im ready to sign some checks. please please dont treat me like a writer who all he cares about is his manuscript being read, ready to mindlessly piggyback a good deed for someone else.
what i want tin house to do is help me care about bookstores. i want to go help them or things i feel strongly about because im a human being. help me feel strongly about them. im ready to sign some checks. please please dont treat me like a writer who all he cares about is his manuscript being read, ready to mindlessly piggyback a good deed for someone else.
what i want tin house to do is help me care about bookstores. i want to go help them or things i feel strongly about because im a human being. help me feel strongly about them. im ready to sign some checks. please please dont treat me like a writer who all he cares about is his manuscript being read, ready to mindlessly piggyback a good deed for someone else.
how is what you typed in the two things i quoted not what you are saying?
how is what you typed in the two things i quoted not what you are saying?
how is what you typed in the two things i quoted not what you are saying?
actually, ignore that, mfbomb. sorry it was stupid to post that. i am tired and its bed time. i think i understand your point, but i disagree with what you seem to be arguing that short term “gimmicks” like this arent worthwhile. thats what i think you might be saying anyhow. i think a combination of long and short can be useful (to be overly simple about this). sorry for being silly. goodnight.
actually, ignore that, mfbomb. sorry it was stupid to post that. i am tired and its bed time. i think i understand your point, but i disagree with what you seem to be arguing that short term “gimmicks” like this arent worthwhile. thats what i think you might be saying anyhow. i think a combination of long and short can be useful (to be overly simple about this). sorry for being silly. goodnight.
Well, Justin, I can’t really criticize you after this response…sort of like that classic “Well, I can’t shoot you now, can I?” scene in “In Bruges.”
Well said. I’ll check out On Being Blue.
Well, Justin, I can’t really criticize you after this response…sort of like that classic “Well, I can’t shoot you now, can I?” scene in “In Bruges.”
Well said. I’ll check out On Being Blue.
actually, ignore that, mfbomb. sorry it was stupid to post that. i am tired and its bed time. i think i understand your point, but i disagree with what you seem to be arguing that short term “gimmicks” like this arent worthwhile. thats what i think you might be saying anyhow. i think a combination of long and short can be useful (to be overly simple about this). sorry for being silly. goodnight.
Well, Justin, I can’t really criticize you after this response…sort of like that classic “Well, I can’t shoot you now, can I?” scene in “In Bruges.”
Well said. I’ll check out On Being Blue.
Because you left out the most important part–my belief that TH is just posturing and being disingenuous and that their submitters are already buying books from indie bookstores. I don’t know one writer–even the half-ass ones–who submit to lit mags who would ever choose a B&N over an indie store, assuming one is available where they live.
So then you’re suggesting that I’m a hypocrite for bagging on them for scolding writers for not doing what they do more than 99.999% of the population already. Rich.
And to make matters worse, the people they need to reach probably aren’t even ready to submit to lit mags, making this all one big, fat joke. What am I supposed to do, use their guidelines as a way to encourage someone who doesn’t submit to buy a book?
If it makes you–and Blake–feel better–I volunteer at a major lit mag, have worked at two others, spend hundreds of dollars on books per year from various sources, and have worked at two indie stores. And I still think Tin House is full of crap for insulting its submitters in this way. I’m not sure when lit mags developed such contempt for their submitters and readers, but from this to that jerk over at VQR to the crooks at Narrative who place writers like Richard Bausch and Janet Burroway in their “contests,” I’m starting to notice a disturbing trend.
Because you left out the most important part–my belief that TH is just posturing and being disingenuous and that their submitters are already buying books from indie bookstores. I don’t know one writer–even the half-ass ones–who submit to lit mags who would ever choose a B&N over an indie store, assuming one is available where they live.
So then you’re suggesting that I’m a hypocrite for bagging on them for scolding writers for not doing what they do more than 99.999% of the population already. Rich.
And to make matters worse, the people they need to reach probably aren’t even ready to submit to lit mags, making this all one big, fat joke. What am I supposed to do, use their guidelines as a way to encourage someone who doesn’t submit to buy a book?
If it makes you–and Blake–feel better–I volunteer at a major lit mag, have worked at two others, spend hundreds of dollars on books per year from various sources, and have worked at two indie stores. And I still think Tin House is full of crap for insulting its submitters in this way. I’m not sure when lit mags developed such contempt for their submitters and readers, but from this to that jerk over at VQR to the crooks at Narrative who place writers like Richard Bausch and Janet Burroway in their “contests,” I’m starting to notice a disturbing trend.
Because you left out the most important part–my belief that TH is just posturing and being disingenuous and that their submitters are already buying books from indie bookstores. I don’t know one writer–even the half-ass ones–who submit to lit mags who would ever choose a B&N over an indie store, assuming one is available where they live.
So then you’re suggesting that I’m a hypocrite for bagging on them for scolding writers for not doing what they do more than 99.999% of the population already. Rich.
And to make matters worse, the people they need to reach probably aren’t even ready to submit to lit mags, making this all one big, fat joke. What am I supposed to do, use their guidelines as a way to encourage someone who doesn’t submit to buy a book?
If it makes you–and Blake–feel better–I volunteer at a major lit mag, have worked at two others, spend hundreds of dollars on books per year from various sources, and have worked at two indie stores. And I still think Tin House is full of crap for insulting its submitters in this way. I’m not sure when lit mags developed such contempt for their submitters and readers, but from this to that jerk over at VQR to the crooks at Narrative who place writers like Richard Bausch and Janet Burroway in their “contests,” I’m starting to notice a disturbing trend.
is it that hard to get your hands on a receipt for a book purchase? i mean, it’s not exactly plutonium. if you aren’t buying books you shouldn’t be wanting to publish one yourself.
Ryan–no problem. It’s all good. I’m done with this too.
Ryan–no problem. It’s all good. I’m done with this too.
Ryan–no problem. It’s all good. I’m done with this too.
Dude, that’s just not responsive to anything anyone is saying about why this is lame. Again, I’m over it at this point, but it’s really frustrating for people to keep pretending those who don’t like it are saying “I’m not buying books.” It’s precisely the fact that we *are* that makes this such a shitty practice.
Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?
What’s with the nonsequiturs on this thread?
Do you really intended to insult folks’ intelligence by reducing the issue to the easiness of finding a book receipt, and isn’t your response indicative of how useless this whole endeavor is in the first place? “Oh, shut up and pull a receipt out from your couch cushions and help support dying bookstores!”
“Really? If I read books exclusively at the library, I shouldn’t try to publish?”
Yeah, for realz. I thought this place was supposed to some kind of subversive, eff-the-mainstream forum for people who don’t always fit in with the regular crowd. Come to find out it’s mainly a hype-machine site to just shill books and endlessly promote. Buying books seems to be more important than actually writing them.
writers are whiney bitches.
writers are whiney bitches.
writers are whiney bitches.
Yes, we run Writer in Residency Programs both in Ann Arbor (not exactly inner city, but it’s our home base) and outside (have run them in Ypsilanti and Brooklyn and are always keeping an eye toward other areas in need).
Essentially we pay an author or editor to go in and work with the teacher of a class or two, once per week, from October through May/June. Same class(es), same group(s) of kids working on either poetry or fiction, learning revision, getting excited about the written word, both in terms of reading and writing. At the end of the school year we publish an anthology of the student work, edited by the author that taught the class. We print enough for each student, the teacher, school library, etc. to get copies and maybe another 50 to 75 copies. We have a reading set up in a local store or place like The Neutral Zone in Ann Arbor so the kids also get an opportunity to read their work to an audience.
The class held in Brooklyn for a couple of years in a row (and will return this upcoming school year – we lost our author/teacher very close to the school year last year and didn’t have time to efficiently go through a vetting process for a replacement in time) was in a school that would be consider underprivileged. It’s the type of school we hope to continue to find to run such programs in. At least one of the students from that school (which was a high school, the two in Ann Arbor we have programs in are 4th and 5th/6th grade classes) received some form of scholarship based on work they created within the workshop/program.
The Dzanc Prize has also resulted in free workshops each year so far. The first year, Laura van den Berg taught a series of workshops in the New England prison system, and created an anthology of work. The second year, Kodi Scheer taught workshops at the UM Cancer Center – to patients, their families, and caregivers. This year, Eugene Cross has set up and is running a progressive series of creative workshops for refugees from Nepal, Sudan and Bhutan, in Erie. For his community service, Cross will conduct three 4-month workshops in concurrence with an ESL class currently being taught.
The Prize is a $5,000 award in two payments to the person that sets up and runs this literary community service. We assume some of the money allows the writer time to write, and some allows them the time to run the programs.
I buy lots of books. I’ll sell y’all my receipts – 5 for a dollar. Serious.
I buy lots of books. I’ll sell y’all my receipts – 5 for a dollar. Serious.
I buy lots of books. I’ll sell y’all my receipts – 5 for a dollar. Serious.
haha. now yr just fucking around.
IT’S LIKE THE RACETRACK. JUST HANG AROUND OUTSIDE.
I can’t pretend to know tin house’s financial situation, but I think framing it this way probably isn’t fair or accurate. I’m looking at the ads in their magazine and a list of their books online. I’m not saying everything they do looks that interesting to me, but if their driving interest is anything more than liking literature, they need a new financial advisor. I just read the actual press release…agreed it’s not that funny, but not nearly as humorless as this thread.
the fucked up thing is that for most – every penny you can make writing … you spend dimes and nickels on books of “friends”
Is it just me, or has J.T. become an asshole since getting on Harper Perennial?
Blake, sorry, but I don’t think any of that makes sense. I have no idea how anybody engaged in regular library use is likely to be engaging in a “vanity” rather than a study. Unless they are loaded, anybody with a significant interest in books is going to have to rent like 80% of them. It seems to me that bookstores—larded as they are w/ the absurdities of the present moment—is a more likely spot for your “vanity.”
And whether or not I publish a book should not depend upon whether my own book-using habits would be financially viable if applied to the entire reading population as a whole. It should depend on whether I can write a quality book. It seems to me that, in terms of priorities, you are more attached to the publishing industry and its survival than you are to literary study—which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, of course.
I see that Justin Taylor mentioned ON BEING BLUE, a marvelous book, every sentence wry yet sagacious, every choice informed by exquisite taste. Why don’t we all talk about that instead?
hmm, well JT has something to do with that.
Well, that’s basically how I feel. If I were rich (and didn’t live in tiny apartments) I would buy all my books and be like ‘fuck you’ to all those people who scribble goofy annotations into the library books before I borrow them. But as it is I’ve had to compromise and scribble into separate journals, which, while not as visceral, does have its own perks. I’ve got my own compendium of commonplace books going, kind of like Emerson did, and there is a weird kind of pack-rat feel to have all these journals of accumulated knowledge/wisdom/scribblings lying around. (Also, I think in a way it’s more functional than scribbling in books, though I hardly knew that when I started. You can index and cross-reference commonplace books, but it’s hard to find the right book when you’re like, “Damn, what book was I scribbling into when I had that useful insight about Issue X?”)
I try to only buy books I know I will re-read or constantly refer to, but I’m not very good at keeping to that rule.
hmm, JT will undoubtedly call me stupid for not being clearer. JT’s attitude/comments on this thread and others of late make it hard to focus on other aspects of JT’s world.
Do you really think that? I mean, I suppose you do or you wouldn’t have posted it, but (and I admit, I don’t really KNOW Justin all that well – mostly from emailing over the years and an occasional meeting at events like AWP) Justin has always seemed to argue pretty passionately about what he thinks – and I’m certainly not saying I always agree with him, because I do not, in many cases, agree with him. I don’t think there’s been any difference in his approach to his thought process from pre-HP days.
Again, many that post and comment here probably know the guy better than I do, but whether or not you think he’s an asshole, or not one, or maybe even an occasional asshole, I’d guess that you had that same opinion a year ago.
Thanks, Dan. I appreciate your taking the time to say that.
Blake- yes, that’s it exactly.
Andrew,
I’m big on humor. Seriously. I pretty much require it from my favorite writers (the Southern writer in me).
But I didn’t sense that TH was trying to be funny, and I have a pretty good humor radar. Came across more like smug snark. Plus, Garrett’s post about TH didn’t surprise me at all–I’ve heard similar stories about TH, starting with THE MAN. That’s all I’ll say.
If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out. Some of us are probably just too ambitious for TH’s approach.
ryan- I like bookstores because I like buying books. I’d rather own a book than pretty much anything else. I like to read them and re-read them, and I like to have them in my house and fold their pages down and scribble shit in them and highlight and underline in them and have them be part of my personal library, which is a work in perpetual progress and, taken in aggregate, is my most prized possession. I’m not a rich guy, but buying a book–whether it’s a used paperback on a dollar rack or a brandnew hardcover–is one act of consumerism that I never–NEVER–feel guilty or even ambivalent about. Buying a book is, for me, a kind of sacrament, and I don’t care how hokey or whatever that sounds. I’m not “against’ libraries, the same way I’m not “against” e-books, but they’re not the mode I prefer. The physical space that the shelves full of books take up is an integral part of their value for me. If a genie popped up and offered me an indestructible Super-Kindle that would instantly have my entire library on it, so I could recover all my bookshelf-given floor space, I would say thanks but no thanks. I like the ritual of picking out which books to bring on a trip–I’m leaving the country for a month in ten days, and my entire bed is covered in books right now, deciding which ones to bring. I think I want about six, a few short novels, a couple poetry collections, and maybe one or two heady/meaty/long things just in case I feel like really going for it. I haven’t thought about any other aspect of the packing, and won’t until probably nine days from now. I’m not asking anyone else to live their life this way, but that’s where I’m coming from.
“If folks want to pat themselves on the back for buying a book from an indie bookstore and pretend like they’re helping to save literature and indie bookstores in the process, or are better readers than the rest of us, then by all means, they can knock themselves out.”
“If being sincere–instead of dishonest, lazy, and self-righteous– is too much to ask, then just quit and open a hot dog stand and STFU with your hollow sanctimony.”
these two quotes one after another are really funny.
i find it to be exactly the point.
Okay.
Let’s just forget I mentioned this.
How about that World Cup?
your book would not be able to be published if everyone simply only ever used library books. fact.
How so?
Writing is less important than being a kind and just person. Sayin’.
i mean, why publish it if you believe in the library system over the bookstore? photocopy a zine and give it to some dudes and stick it in with the other books in the spots where people gather.
that also said: not all books worth reading appear in libraries. if your reading history can be all found within the walls of a library, or all of them, you aren’t reading very hard.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
Everyone: please order one of Blake Butler’s book so he’ll stop trolling.
some people aren’t in a socioeconomic position to buy many books. almost all of the books i buy are used
well, I’ll give you this, Bill- it was almost certainly a mistake on my part to kick this hornets’ nest in the first place. Longtime readers of this site (not sure if this includes you or not) have probably noticed that I’ve made a point over the last few months of trying not to get sucked into these kinds of protracted arguments like I used to do all the time–it’s because (1) they were taking up a lot of my time, and (2) because I think they bring out a lot of ugliness in people–me as much as anyone, maybe more. All that said, however, having made the decision in this case to engage, I’m going to play to win. I’m all for rigorous disagreement- cf. my more or less civil (if charged) interactions with darby, Roxane, and now ryan. But I don’t owe any deference to ignorant, venomous fuckwits like several of the commenters above, who want to attack me personally and/or bitch about this site in general, just because it fails to conform to their inch-wide (and inch-deep) conception of “indie” or whatever their real problem with me/us is. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re wrong. This was a silly distraction that I shouldn’t have let into my day. Anyway, cheers man. I’ll see you round.
PS- On Being Blue is a wonderful book. Highly recommended.
That Ghana Uruguay game was one of the most electrifying sporting events I’ve ever seen.
that’s the biggest problem with book publishing today: for far too many it’s a vanity, and not a study.
study.
—————–
Okay, I understand now–we need you to tell us what books to order (i.e., what books are worth studying).
Because obviously If I don’t buy a book to meet TH’s guidelines, I’m not buying books at all (your argument that “you’re buying books anyway, just show them a receipt,” is fucking idiotic because a) the whole point of their guidelines is for people to order at least one more book in response to their guidelines and b) most writers who submit to TH buy books anyway. The people who really need to be reached don’t even fucking know that motherfucking TH exists; you can’t possibly be this obtuse.
well, its funny to me anyhow because in that first statement you seem to lookdown upon people who like to think theyre doing somethign worthwhile by purchasing from an independent bookstore. i got this feeling from the language you used (“pretend” “knock themselves out”) and the assumptions you make about those types of people. this seems lazy to me, sort of smug and snarky, but maybe i misread you?
and in the second statement you scold, in an attempt to be funny, i guess, another entity for engaging in the same sort of selfrighteous behavior.
the two statements are contradictory, i think. its like they were posted by two different people, which i thought was funny.
the people who do buy from independent bookstores are part of the same project as those who have more ambitous ways of helping support independent stores/literature. why mock their humble actions?
the problem i have with the ease philosophy is that it gets too far away from the act of charity itself. the point of all this is that it should be an act of charity, it should be a person *wanting* to do something good for someone or something. writers should *want* to help bookstores, they shouldnt just simply help them regardless of their wants because its easy to. reducing the decision to do a good deed down to ‘do it because its easy to’ takes away from that basic charitable instinct people have. your ethic can be reduced to its okay that i dont give a fuck about bookstores, i just helped them because it was easy to. sorry man, i *want* to help bookstores, i dont want to just do an easy thing for bookstores, i want to do hard things, i want to feel good that i did hard things, i want to go buy a hundred books from them and give them hugs and not feel like i have to give my receipts to someone. i want to know that i did something good for someone for myself, i dont want my good deed to be like, plth, i did it because i care more about my manuscript being read. i did it because tin house waved a carrot in front of my face. no one should ever do anything because its easy to. people should make sacrifices for their bookstores. i should buy more books from them. everyone should. but we should do it *because* we love bookstores.
http://bit.ly/15p127
They’re not contradictory at all; you just cherry picked two sections of my posts out-of-context and I’ve gone to great lengths to argue (along with others) THAT EVERYONE submitting to TH already buys books, often from indie stores.
Jesus Christ, man.
The only thing that’s ironic is that the people arguing on this thread, for the most part, aren’t the ones who need to be reached, yet are the primary target of Tin House.
I realize this is all rocket science.
And yeah I’m in full-on snark mode now because, like Mike M, nothing’s more annoying than people who aren’t even really responding to what you’re saying. I can handle people disagreeing with me all day long.
what i want tin house to do is help me care about bookstores. i want to go help them or things i feel strongly about because im a human being. help me feel strongly about them. im ready to sign some checks. please please dont treat me like a writer who all he cares about is his manuscript being read, ready to mindlessly piggyback a good deed for someone else.
only you can prevent forest fires
how is what you typed in the two things i quoted not what you are saying?
the problem is not the lack of quality books but the lack of
if you thought about this question more than 15 seconds fuck yourself.
actually, ignore that, mfbomb. sorry it was stupid to post that. i am tired and its bed time. i think i understand your point, but i disagree with what you seem to be arguing that short term “gimmicks” like this arent worthwhile. thats what i think you might be saying anyhow. i think a combination of long and short can be useful (to be overly simple about this). sorry for being silly. goodnight.
Well, Justin, I can’t really criticize you after this response…sort of like that classic “Well, I can’t shoot you now, can I?” scene in “In Bruges.”
Well said. I’ll check out On Being Blue.
Because you left out the most important part–my belief that TH is just posturing and being disingenuous and that their submitters are already buying books from indie bookstores. I don’t know one writer–even the half-ass ones–who submit to lit mags who would ever choose a B&N over an indie store, assuming one is available where they live.
So then you’re suggesting that I’m a hypocrite for bagging on them for scolding writers for not doing what they do more than 99.999% of the population already. Rich.
And to make matters worse, the people they need to reach probably aren’t even ready to submit to lit mags, making this all one big, fat joke. What am I supposed to do, use their guidelines as a way to encourage someone who doesn’t submit to buy a book?
If it makes you–and Blake–feel better–I volunteer at a major lit mag, have worked at two others, spend hundreds of dollars on books per year from various sources, and have worked at two indie stores. And I still think Tin House is full of crap for insulting its submitters in this way. I’m not sure when lit mags developed such contempt for their submitters and readers, but from this to that jerk over at VQR to the crooks at Narrative who place writers like Richard Bausch and Janet Burroway in their “contests,” I’m starting to notice a disturbing trend.
Ryan–no problem. It’s all good. I’m done with this too.
writers are whiney bitches.
Man at this point I am just confused and I guess because I’m not angry anymore I’m not sure what everybody else is so mad about. The question of how people might feel about this is a valid question. There are several valid answers. Not liking it because it A) seems to scold writers for not reading, when I know for a fact that I read and pay every penny I can afford to for the privilege, spent more than I was sure I could afford at AWP buying books after spending more than I was sure I could afford to get down there after spending hour on hour putting together a magazine I get 0 dollars to build, for instance, and B) because they seriously expect poor people to explain themselves, is one of the valid answers.
I resent having that perfectly reasonable answer reduced to “I hate books and don’t want to buy them,” especially by people I respect and admire, and especially after I repeatedly point out that’s precisely what I never said. If you want to shout at people who actually don’t buy books about it that’s okay by me, if not a great way to expand the community, but I don’t see what I did to get lumped in, or others here.
I can’t quit you.
“the problem is not the lack of quality books but the lack of”
So the strategy is to blame the people who support books more than any other segment of the population? Actually, this isn’t anything new—it’s rather American, even here, on an “indie” lit sight. Blame the wrong people, or the easiest targets. Club baby seals. Happy 4th!
*site
I buy lots of books. I’ll sell y’all my receipts – 5 for a dollar. Serious.
I love excerpts!
Not while I’m reading.
Blake, sorry, but I don’t think any of that makes sense. I have no idea how anybody engaged in regular library use is likely to be engaging in a “vanity” rather than a study. Unless they are loaded, anybody with a significant interest in books is going to have to rent like 80% of them. It seems to me that bookstores—larded as they are w/ the absurdities of the present moment—is a more likely spot for your “vanity.”
And whether or not I publish a book should not depend upon whether my own book-using habits would be financially viable if applied to the entire reading population as a whole. It should depend on whether I can write a quality book. It seems to me that, in terms of priorities, you are more attached to the publishing industry and its survival than you are to literary study—which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, of course.
Well, that’s basically how I feel. If I were rich (and didn’t live in tiny apartments) I would buy all my books and be like ‘fuck you’ to all those people who scribble goofy annotations into the library books before I borrow them. But as it is I’ve had to compromise and scribble into separate journals, which, while not as visceral, does have its own perks. I’ve got my own compendium of commonplace books going, kind of like Emerson did, and there is a weird kind of pack-rat feel to have all these journals of accumulated knowledge/wisdom/scribblings lying around. (Also, I think in a way it’s more functional than scribbling in books, though I hardly knew that when I started. You can index and cross-reference commonplace books, but it’s hard to find the right book when you’re like, “Damn, what book was I scribbling into when I had that useful insight about Issue X?”)
I try to only buy books I know I will re-read or constantly refer to, but I’m not very good at keeping to that rule.
only you can prevent forest fires
the problem is not the lack of quality books but the lack of
if you thought about this question more than 15 seconds fuck yourself.
Blake does not read comment threads; he just posts in them.
Oh. I was reading it as “conservative nut.”
Man at this point I am just confused and I guess because I’m not angry anymore I’m not sure what everybody else is so mad about. The question of how people might feel about this is a valid question. There are several valid answers. Not liking it because it A) seems to scold writers for not reading, when I know for a fact that I read and pay every penny I can afford to for the privilege, spent more than I was sure I could afford at AWP buying books after spending more than I was sure I could afford to get down there after spending hour on hour putting together a magazine I get 0 dollars to build, for instance, and B) because they seriously expect poor people to explain themselves, is one of the valid answers.
I resent having that perfectly reasonable answer reduced to “I hate books and don’t want to buy them,” especially by people I respect and admire, and especially after I repeatedly point out that’s precisely what I never said. If you want to shout at people who actually don’t buy books about it that’s okay by me, if not a great way to expand the community, but I don’t see what I did to get lumped in, or others here.
I can’t quit you.
“the problem is not the lack of quality books but the lack of”
So the strategy is to blame the people who support books more than any other segment of the population? Actually, this isn’t anything new—it’s rather American, even here, on an “indie” lit sight. Blame the wrong people, or the easiest targets. Club baby seals. Happy 4th!
*site
I love excerpts!
Not while I’m reading.
hey mfbomb, it is morning, i have had some coffee, and i have a few comments, if thats okay? i apologize for mucking on you. it didnt help matters, i guess, to join the convo that way, though it did make me giggle last night.
‘What am I supposed to do, use their guidelines as a way to encourage someone who doesn’t submit to buy a book?’ i know you were sort of being sarcastic with that question, but actually, it made me think: wait, could something like that work? it would certainly be more ambitious and challenging (fun maybe?) to try to convince someone else to buy a book so you could submit? like, i dont know how you would do it, but, yeah. or maybe its stupid idea.
i think i have more of an optimistic view of lit mags and consider narrative and that vqr article to be anomalies (and im still not convinced that tin house is treating their submitters with contempt, but by now that point is run ragged). i dont think three instances make a trend. i can think of several magazines who seem excited about/respectful of contributors, and they are relatively new. artifice magazine, for instance, has that ‘wish list’ which is like a fun challenge for submitters to play with the editors. elsewhere dan wickett said the collagist runs novel excerpts constantly to celebrate the achievenemts of contributors, which is rare for mags to do, i think, to run excerpts. and i know my two exampls dont make a trend either, but i think they are still important ot mention and they make me feel good about lit mags.
anyhow, you dont have to try to make me feel better, but it is neat to hear about the life behidn the handle. i generally am impressed by the commentors/readers here and assume that most are here because they do care/support, even though i might disgree with some of them.
Btw, if you’re in Berlin, this is where you buy books: http://www.saintgeorgesbookshop.com/
And all the while, bookstores keep closing down. See my recent post about a great one now gone forever: http://htmlgiant.com/i-like-__-a-lot/another-one-might-bite-the-dust…/
How about Germany/Argentina? Germany will win it all, I predict.
Blake does not read comment threads; he just posts in them.
Oh. I was reading it as “conservative nut.”
The irony about the closing of so many indie book stores is that more people buy books today than ever before, and the multitude of options today is more class-friendly. I’ve worked at two indie stores and absolutely loved it, but most of are patrons were middle to upper class.
*our
Ryan,
You’re right about “most” lit mags–I overstated my point a bit Most litmags are run by good, sincere people who don’t hate their jobs or their readers/submitters. I was still angry when I wrote that post.
To be quite honest with you, I’m not sure I even trust this notion that it’s somehow a moral obligation for those in the literary arts to make their products reach beyond those who were already interested. In some ways, this strain smacks of middle-brow smugness–the idea that everyone in the US should stop what they’re doing to read a litmag or preorder a collection from an indie press. I mean seriously, get over yourselves (not you).
That said, if we’re going to change the world, can we at least do it honestly instead of pretending like demanding that people ordering a book is going to make a difference, or is even a viable method to get more people interested in literature? The idea is borderline vulgar and philistine.
hey mfbomb, it is morning, i have had some coffee, and i have a few comments, if thats okay? i apologize for mucking on you. it didnt help matters, i guess, to join the convo that way, though it did make me giggle last night.
‘What am I supposed to do, use their guidelines as a way to encourage someone who doesn’t submit to buy a book?’ i know you were sort of being sarcastic with that question, but actually, it made me think: wait, could something like that work? it would certainly be more ambitious and challenging (fun maybe?) to try to convince someone else to buy a book so you could submit? like, i dont know how you would do it, but, yeah. or maybe its stupid idea.
i think i have more of an optimistic view of lit mags and consider narrative and that vqr article to be anomalies (and im still not convinced that tin house is treating their submitters with contempt, but by now that point is run ragged). i dont think three instances make a trend. i can think of several magazines who seem excited about/respectful of contributors, and they are relatively new. artifice magazine, for instance, has that ‘wish list’ which is like a fun challenge for submitters to play with the editors. elsewhere dan wickett said the collagist runs novel excerpts constantly to celebrate the achievenemts of contributors, which is rare for mags to do, i think, to run excerpts. and i know my two exampls dont make a trend either, but i think they are still important ot mention and they make me feel good about lit mags.
anyhow, you dont have to try to make me feel better, but it is neat to hear about the life behidn the handle. i generally am impressed by the commentors/readers here and assume that most are here because they do care/support, even though i might disgree with some of them.
Btw, if you’re in Berlin, this is where you buy books: http://www.saintgeorgesbookshop.com/
And all the while, bookstores keep closing down. See my recent post about a great one now gone forever: http://htmlgiant.com/i-like-__-a-lot/another-one-might-bite-the-dust…/
How about Germany/Argentina? Germany will win it all, I predict.
The irony about the closing of so many indie book stores is that more people buy books today than ever before, and the multitude of options today is more class-friendly. I’ve worked at two indie stores and absolutely loved it, but most of are patrons were middle to upper class.
*our
Ryan,
You’re right about “most” lit mags–I overstated my point a bit Most litmags are run by good, sincere people who don’t hate their jobs or their readers/submitters. I was still angry when I wrote that post.
To be quite honest with you, I’m not sure I even trust this notion that it’s somehow a moral obligation for those in the literary arts to make their products reach beyond those who were already interested. In some ways, this strain smacks of middle-brow smugness–the idea that everyone in the US should stop what they’re doing to read a litmag or preorder a collection from an indie press. I mean seriously, get over yourselves (not you).
That said, if we’re going to change the world, can we at least do it honestly instead of pretending like demanding that people ordering a book is going to make a difference, or is even a viable method to get more people interested in literature? The idea is borderline vulgar and philistine.
My first reaction to the Tin House policy was, “Ha Ha. Good for them.”
The economic arguments against it are a joke, as are the ‘local bookstore’ arguments. Most people can afford to buy a couple books a year. Most people live near bookstores. And if you don’t? Write a note explaining that. Not much to get outraged about.
Sometimes I’m amazed at how quickly commenters get outraged around here, but then I realize: being outraged is fun.
Anyway, the condescension complaint is valid, although I think TH meant it in good humor – which apparently didn’t come off.
The thing that I think many here are missing is the incredible volume of submissions Tin House must get. EL is not half as well known, but we get thousands of submissions every issue, and even with 35 readers, it’s very hard to keep up. Especially because everything is read twice. Sometimes we regret our open policy, but it was the policy we wanted to see when we were on the other side, as writers. Now that we’re on the publisher side, it gets a little rough. There are many, many writers who are scanning duotrope and submitting to magazines they’d never fit in. The majority of these writers don’t seem to read enough, to be honest. They really ought to buy and read more books. Collectively, EL spends thousands of hours reading submissions, which is exponentially more time than we spend on anything else. The temptation to put up a small hurdle for submitters is understandable. Especially one that is directed at helping your industry, and supporting what you love.
For about 4 months, EL offered $6 off subscriptions to writers who submitted work to us, via a coupon code. It brought the cost of a digital subscription down to $3 an issue. Out of over 3,000 submitters during that time, less than a dozen used that code. I’m sure Tin House has similar stories.
There has been a lot of wondering, here and elsewhere, if emerging writers do enough to support the institutions which they wish to support them (i.e. ever buy a literary magazine). Tin House decided to playfully push the issue, and lighten the slush pile for themselves at the same time. It’s not so horrible.
My first reaction to the Tin House policy was, “Ha Ha. Good for them.”
The economic arguments against it are a joke, as are the ‘local bookstore’ arguments. Most people can afford to buy a couple books a year. Most people live near bookstores. And if you don’t? Write a note explaining that. Not much to get outraged about.
Sometimes I’m amazed at how quickly commenters get outraged around here, but then I realize: being outraged is fun.
Anyway, the condescension complaint is valid, although I think TH meant it in good humor – which apparently didn’t come off.
The thing that I think many here are missing is the incredible volume of submissions Tin House must get. EL is not half as well known, but we get thousands of submissions every issue, and even with 35 readers, it’s very hard to keep up. Especially because everything is read twice. Sometimes we regret our open policy, but it was the policy we wanted to see when we were on the other side, as writers. Now that we’re on the publisher side, it gets a little rough. There are many, many writers who are scanning duotrope and submitting to magazines they’d never fit in. The majority of these writers don’t seem to read enough, to be honest. They really ought to buy and read more books. Collectively, EL spends thousands of hours reading submissions, which is exponentially more time than we spend on anything else. The temptation to put up a small hurdle for submitters is understandable. Especially one that is directed at helping your industry, and supporting what you love.
For about 4 months, EL offered $6 off subscriptions to writers who submitted work to us, via a coupon code. It brought the cost of a digital subscription down to $3 an issue. Out of over 3,000 submitters during that time, less than a dozen used that code. I’m sure Tin House has similar stories.
There has been a lot of wondering, here and elsewhere, if emerging writers do enough to support the institutions which they wish to support them (i.e. ever buy a literary magazine). Tin House decided to playfully push the issue, and lighten the slush pile for themselves at the same time. It’s not so horrible.
I really don’t understand all the fuss about this. You guys do know that the program is only for four months, right? I mean seriously, how many stories were you guys planning on submitting between Sept and Dec this year? How about you just don’t submit anything to Tin House for those months and then submit a story on January 1st?
I really don’t understand all the fuss about this. You guys do know that the program is only for four months, right? I mean seriously, how many stories were you guys planning on submitting between Sept and Dec this year? How about you just don’t submit anything to Tin House for those months and then submit a story on January 1st?
MFBomb-
You are an evil genius. I commend you.
Man, do I agree. It’s an attempt to divert one of your book purchases to a brick-and-mortar bookstore. TH never implied that writers don’t buy books. I’m pretty sure they know that real writers buy books, but now, they buy books online. At Amazon, because they’re cheaper and you can buy even more books. And brick-and-mortar places are dying because of it. Tin House doesn’t even stipulate that the purchase should be made at an independent bookstore. Chain brick-and-mortars are hurting too.
Tin House is just trying to turn this inert mass that is the slushpile into something that does a small, good thing. It’s not going to save bookstores, but it’s a gesture of solidarity.
Word.
How about you actually learn to read, Sam?
I’m going to hire someone to repost my arguments from now on since I don’t have the time or energy to do so myself.
[…] House is badly misunderstood. ▶ No Responses /* 0) { jQuery('#comments').show('', change_location()); […]
MFBomb-
You are an evil genius. I commend you.
[…] Matthew Simmons’s two-line post from Friday, about a new temporary Tin House submission policy, has now drawn 212 comments, with more still […]
Man, do I agree. It’s an attempt to divert one of your book purchases to a brick-and-mortar bookstore. TH never implied that writers don’t buy books. I’m pretty sure they know that real writers buy books, but now, they buy books online. At Amazon, because they’re cheaper and you can buy even more books. And brick-and-mortar places are dying because of it. Tin House doesn’t even stipulate that the purchase should be made at an independent bookstore. Chain brick-and-mortars are hurting too.
Tin House is just trying to turn this inert mass that is the slushpile into something that does a small, good thing. It’s not going to save bookstores, but it’s a gesture of solidarity.
Word.
Why do you assume that my post is directed at you? Clearly you understand that this is a temporary program. You just think it’s a big fail. That’s fine.
As for your point, what’s wrong with trying? Even if it’s a failed idea, if they care about bookstores, they should try something. It’s not about this program SAVING ANYTHING. It’s about awareness. They wanted us to know that this is a problem worth thinking about. And you know what? Here we are thinking about it. (If you think the problem is stupid, then good.)
If a few people get offended by this idea, who cares? I sincerely doubt that two years from now anyone here will be upholding some sort of grudge or veto toward Tin House based on this one time program that lasted four months. My guess is that we will all have forgotten about this by Sept 2011.
So with that said, my post is not directed at anyone. It’s simply a response to this 200+ post thread.
Well, probably because most of the people who’ve expressed their problems with the policy have reached the same conclusions.
Also, I love all the sanctimony about freaking indie bookstores, which have almost always existed in bigger cities or middle to upper class areas. The irony is that poorer people probably have more access to books today than ever before, but go on ahead and save some indie bookstore in the hipster section of Brooklyn if it makes you feel better.
How about you actually learn to read, Sam?
I’m going to hire someone to repost my arguments from now on since I don’t have the time or energy to do so myself.
ZZZZIPP HAS TWO SOGGY BOOK RECEIPTS FROM TODAY (IT’S HOT OUTSIDE, SO HOT) FOR SALE. IF YOU WANT THEM YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME… A PHOTON HIGH FIVE.
A BOOKSTORE THAT JUST CLOSED IN TORONTO, “THIS AIN’T THE ROSEDALE LIBRARY” DID A LOT OF GREAT THINGS FOR INDEPENDENT LITERATURE, SUCH AS TRADE ZINES FOR BOOKS AND STOCK A WIDE VARIETY OF REALLY SMALL LOCALS. IN TWO YEARS THE AMOUNT OF STORES THAT DO THIS HAS DROPPED FROM 3 TO 1 HERE. PLEASE DON’T PRETEND THAT “INDIE” IS SYNONYMOUS WITH “PREMIUM BRAND” OR SOMETHING. IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF “BMW”.
(“THIS AIN’T” HAS BEEN AROUND FOR OVER THIRTY YEARS AND ONE OF THE FIRST WRITERS THEY HELPED WAS MICHAEL ONDAATJE. THAT MIGHT NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU, BUT HELPING TO DEVELOP THAT KIND OF TALENT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALLER MARKET LIKE CANADA.)
“THAT MIGHT NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU, BUT HELPING TO DEVELOP THAT KIND OF TALENT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALLER MARKET LIKE CANADA.)”
———–
No, it’s not very important to me, because I’m not really interested in reading writers who depend on bookstores to “develop their talent.”
Turn the caps off, dipshit.
Wow, MFBomb…I was kind of interested in your take at the beginning of this thread. The more I scroll down the less you seem like a reasonable person and the more you seem like a bitter asshole.
‘I’m not really interested in reading writers who depend on bookstores to “develop their talent.”’
Oh, but MFBomb, why? Seriously, why would you a) believe that, and/or b) choose to say it? Those issues aside, how would that ever make sense? All writers need to receive support from one person (slash body) or another. Surely, independent bookshops are in a unique position to support and encourage local writers.
Also, since when does class have anything to do with indie? That is an enormous logical leap. Your arguments just don’t work, on a very basic level.
Actually, you all are right (last two commenters, not the caps lock troll)–this is what happens when one continues to post when there’s nothing else to be said.
Not bitter because I’ve never sought patronage from a bookstore, even though I’ve probably logged more hours at indie stores than anyone posting on this thread.
Later!
*SSSSSSSSSSSSLAPPPPPPPPP*
ZZZIPP DOESN’T UNDERSTAND… WHO THE TROLL… IS…
OK WANT ME TO SEND YOU A SCAN OR SOMETHING TO YOUR RESIDENCE OR SOMETHING??? THE OTHER RECEIPT GOT ACCIDENTALLY THROWN AWAY SO YOU ARE THE ONLY WINNER.
hold on that am getting my burle photomultiplier out of hock a wk from friday
Ten years ago I went to a panel discussion featuring a number of editors from various literary journals at Sarah Lawrence College. And basically, every editor was pretty much saying what you’d expect…if you’re a writer who submits to literary journals, you should read and support them (i.e. “buy” or “subscribe.”) But then Wendy Lesser of “Threepenny Review” surprised everyone and said she totally disagreed. Writers should read the classics and work on their craft. Let her worry about getting the money for a literary magazine.
Why do you assume that my post is directed at you? Clearly you understand that this is a temporary program. You just think it’s a big fail. That’s fine.
As for your point, what’s wrong with trying? Even if it’s a failed idea, if they care about bookstores, they should try something. It’s not about this program SAVING ANYTHING. It’s about awareness. They wanted us to know that this is a problem worth thinking about. And you know what? Here we are thinking about it. (If you think the problem is stupid, then good.)
If a few people get offended by this idea, who cares? I sincerely doubt that two years from now anyone here will be upholding some sort of grudge or veto toward Tin House based on this one time program that lasted four months. My guess is that we will all have forgotten about this by Sept 2011.
So with that said, my post is not directed at anyone. It’s simply a response to this 200+ post thread.
Hearts to Wendy Lesser.
I buy and read what I wanna. Often that means the sort of stuff I’m “supposed” to get. Often it means other stuff completely.
Well, probably because most of the people who’ve expressed their problems with the policy have reached the same conclusions.
Also, I love all the sanctimony about freaking indie bookstores, which have almost always existed in bigger cities or middle to upper class areas. The irony is that poorer people probably have more access to books today than ever before, but go on ahead and save some indie bookstore in the hipster section of Brooklyn if it makes you feel better.
I’ve always liked Lesser. She’s one of my favorite editors. I don’t have a problem with her no sim sub policy because she turns stuff around so quickly, usually in two weeks.
YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL NOT TO SNEEZE OR ANYTHING WHEN YOU LOOK FOR IT IN THE ENVELOPE.
Just out of curiosity, what gives you that impression? I don’t know what it looks like outside of Portland and New York (the two places I’ve lived in the past couple years), but in those cities they to do a lot of events, and seem to get pretty decent review coverage. I don’t know any of their authors well, but I wonder what makes you say they don’t get behind their books.
ZZZZIPP HAS TWO SOGGY BOOK RECEIPTS FROM TODAY (IT’S HOT OUTSIDE, SO HOT) FOR SALE. IF YOU WANT THEM YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME… A PHOTON HIGH FIVE.
A BOOKSTORE THAT JUST CLOSED IN TORONTO, “THIS AIN’T THE ROSEDALE LIBRARY” DID A LOT OF GREAT THINGS FOR INDEPENDENT LITERATURE, SUCH AS TRADE ZINES FOR BOOKS AND STOCK A WIDE VARIETY OF REALLY SMALL LOCALS. IN TWO YEARS THE AMOUNT OF STORES THAT DO THIS HAS DROPPED FROM 3 TO 1 HERE. PLEASE DON’T PRETEND THAT “INDIE” IS SYNONYMOUS WITH “PREMIUM BRAND” OR SOMETHING. IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF “BMW”.
(“THIS AIN’T” HAS BEEN AROUND FOR OVER THIRTY YEARS AND ONE OF THE FIRST WRITERS THEY HELPED WAS MICHAEL ONDAATJE. THAT MIGHT NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU, BUT HELPING TO DEVELOP THAT KIND OF TALENT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALLER MARKET LIKE CANADA.)
“THAT MIGHT NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU, BUT HELPING TO DEVELOP THAT KIND OF TALENT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALLER MARKET LIKE CANADA.)”
———–
No, it’s not very important to me, because I’m not really interested in reading writers who depend on bookstores to “develop their talent.”
Turn the caps off, dipshit.
Wow, MFBomb…I was kind of interested in your take at the beginning of this thread. The more I scroll down the less you seem like a reasonable person and the more you seem like a bitter asshole.
‘I’m not really interested in reading writers who depend on bookstores to “develop their talent.”’
Oh, but MFBomb, why? Seriously, why would you a) believe that, and/or b) choose to say it? Those issues aside, how would that ever make sense? All writers need to receive support from one person (slash body) or another. Surely, independent bookshops are in a unique position to support and encourage local writers.
Also, since when does class have anything to do with indie? That is an enormous logical leap. Your arguments just don’t work, on a very basic level.
Actually, you all are right (last two commenters, not the caps lock troll)–this is what happens when one continues to post when there’s nothing else to be said.
Not bitter because I’ve never sought patronage from a bookstore, even though I’ve probably logged more hours at indie stores than anyone posting on this thread.
Later!
*SSSSSSSSSSSSLAPPPPPPPPP*
ZZZIPP DOESN’T UNDERSTAND… WHO THE TROLL… IS…
OK WANT ME TO SEND YOU A SCAN OR SOMETHING TO YOUR RESIDENCE OR SOMETHING??? THE OTHER RECEIPT GOT ACCIDENTALLY THROWN AWAY SO YOU ARE THE ONLY WINNER.
hold on that am getting my burle photomultiplier out of hock a wk from friday
Ten years ago I went to a panel discussion featuring a number of editors from various literary journals at Sarah Lawrence College. And basically, every editor was pretty much saying what you’d expect…if you’re a writer who submits to literary journals, you should read and support them (i.e. “buy” or “subscribe.”) But then Wendy Lesser of “Threepenny Review” surprised everyone and said she totally disagreed. Writers should read the classics and work on their craft. Let her worry about getting the money for a literary magazine.
Hearts to Wendy Lesser.
I buy and read what I wanna. Often that means the sort of stuff I’m “supposed” to get. Often it means other stuff completely.
I’ve always liked Lesser. She’s one of my favorite editors. I don’t have a problem with her no sim sub policy because she turns stuff around so quickly, usually in two weeks.
YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL NOT TO SNEEZE OR ANYTHING WHEN YOU LOOK FOR IT IN THE ENVELOPE.
Just out of curiosity, what gives you that impression? I don’t know what it looks like outside of Portland and New York (the two places I’ve lived in the past couple years), but in those cities they to do a lot of events, and seem to get pretty decent review coverage. I don’t know any of their authors well, but I wonder what makes you say they don’t get behind their books.
[…] a lively discussion of Tin House’s new submission guidelines (they require writers submitting work to include a […]
Not that anyone is going to read this far to get to this comment—and everyone probably started deleting email notices of comments long ago on this thread—but I just wanted to say that, as a former intern at Tin House, every manuscript was given attention and was considered worthy for inclusion. As is I think true for the majority of lit mags, the desire at Tin House was always to find & publish the next great thing, wherever it may come from. The editors get just as keyed-up about a great new thing from an unknown writer as they do from something great from say Seamus Heaney or Ann Beattie. They have rejected many known writers and accepted many unknowns.
And this new submission policy is temporary & in good spirits. It is only lasting for a few months. How hard is it to sit on a manuscript until 2011 if you aren’t into the policy for the magazine? And you can always submit it to the 1,000 other lit mags out there.
As for the TH Books, isn’t this a great opportunity to get an unsolicited manuscript read? How awesome would it be if Penguin, Random House & etc would do something similar once in a while….
(Sorry for the long-windedness. I realized I didn’t really add much to this long discussion)
Not that anyone is going to read this far to get to this comment—and everyone probably started deleting email notices of comments long ago on this thread—but I just wanted to say that, as a former intern at Tin House, every manuscript was given attention and was considered worthy for inclusion. As is I think true for the majority of lit mags, the desire at Tin House was always to find & publish the next great thing, wherever it may come from. The editors get just as keyed-up about a great new thing from an unknown writer as they do from something great from say Seamus Heaney or Ann Beattie. They have rejected many known writers and accepted many unknowns.
And this new submission policy is temporary & in good spirits. It is only lasting for a few months. How hard is it to sit on a manuscript until 2011 if you aren’t into the policy for the magazine? And you can always submit it to the 1,000 other lit mags out there.
As for the TH Books, isn’t this a great opportunity to get an unsolicited manuscript read? How awesome would it be if Penguin, Random House & etc would do something similar once in a while….
(Sorry for the long-windedness. I realized I didn’t really add much to this long discussion)
[…] program is pretty absurd. Hats go off to Vol. 1 favorite Justin Taylor for his response in the HTMLGIANT comment section. (Scroll down to see all of Taylor’s comment): “If patronizing a physical bookstore in […]
You know, I was in the company of a coupe of Tin House folks as they were thinking about this and while I can’t say I thought through the details, my instinctive reaction was positive. Like it or not, we live in capitalism, and money is carbon in a capitalist system. It’s a necessary though not sufficient element. Tin House are drawing attention most effectively to that. Broadly speaking, moreover, indie bookstores provide a non-algorithmic reading recommendation engine on which there is a significant degree of free-riding (browse, then buy from Amazon). Tin House is implicitly drawing attention to that also, without being as pedantic as I was there just now. One more thing this draws attention to: the reading-writing economy is simply not going to be supported by the supply chain alone. In fact, the supply chain has done a pretty so-so job up until now anyway. But to render, for a moment, the very top of the supply chain, the submission, dependent on participation in the bottom of the supply chain, the purchase of the standard unit in the supply chain, a book, to do so turns the supply chain into a circle. That tells a truth. Not the only truth, but a truth. A significant amount of the opposition to Tin House’s move is effectively shooting the messenger of that truth. I look forward to more such activity from different participants in the supply chain as we look create models that better reflect the value we all are creating and consuming in the culture of text-only narrative.
You know, I was in the company of a coupe of Tin House folks as they were thinking about this and while I can’t say I thought through the details, my instinctive reaction was positive. Like it or not, we live in capitalism, and money is carbon in a capitalist system. It’s a necessary though not sufficient element. Tin House are drawing attention most effectively to that. Broadly speaking, moreover, indie bookstores provide a non-algorithmic reading recommendation engine on which there is a significant degree of free-riding (browse, then buy from Amazon). Tin House is implicitly drawing attention to that also, without being as pedantic as I was there just now. One more thing this draws attention to: the reading-writing economy is simply not going to be supported by the supply chain alone. In fact, the supply chain has done a pretty so-so job up until now anyway. But to render, for a moment, the very top of the supply chain, the submission, dependent on participation in the bottom of the supply chain, the purchase of the standard unit in the supply chain, a book, to do so turns the supply chain into a circle. That tells a truth. Not the only truth, but a truth. A significant amount of the opposition to Tin House’s move is effectively shooting the messenger of that truth. I look forward to more such activity from different participants in the supply chain as we look create models that better reflect the value we all are creating and consuming in the culture of text-only narrative.
What if I buy a Tin House title from an indie? Will TH automatically accept my manuscript?
What if I buy a Tin House title from an indie? Will TH automatically accept my manuscript?
Nope! (sigh of gleeful relief; life returns to normal around here)
Nope! (sigh of gleeful relief; life returns to normal around here)
Frankly, I just don’t see why any rational mind should be outraged about this. It’s not as if Tin House asked anybody to molest a close relative. If you don’t like the policy, you can submit your work elsewhere.
Nevertheless, I will say that the idea of a reader being forced at near gunpoint to buy something from an independent bookstore is as repellent to me as a knee-jerk Tea Party recruitment or neoliberal entitlement. We’re here to encourage people to read and we need to respect their right to choose. We need to encourage them to become regular customers not through duress, but by listening to what excites them. Some of the laughable stridency in this thread isn’t altogether different from a bunch of pro-lifers picketing a Planned Parenthood clinic. What’s called for here is friendly and inviting persuasion, not sanctimonious posturing. In case you hadn’t noticed, literary culture exists in a bubble. And it’s our duty to be inclusive and expand that circle. Richard Nash is closer than some on this score, but free market realities don’t necessarily translate into community.
Frankly, I just don’t see why any rational mind should be outraged about this. It’s not as if Tin House asked anybody to molest a close relative. If you don’t like the policy, you can submit your work elsewhere.
Nevertheless, I will say that the idea of a reader being forced at near gunpoint to buy something from an independent bookstore is as repellent to me as a knee-jerk Tea Party recruitment or neoliberal entitlement. We’re here to encourage people to read and we need to respect their right to choose. We need to encourage them to become regular customers not through duress, but by listening to what excites them. Some of the laughable stridency in this thread isn’t altogether different from a bunch of pro-lifers picketing a Planned Parenthood clinic. What’s called for here is friendly and inviting persuasion, not sanctimonious posturing. In case you hadn’t noticed, literary culture exists in a bubble. And it’s our duty to be inclusive and expand that circle. Richard Nash is closer than some on this score, but free market realities don’t necessarily translate into community.
Edward Champion sermonizes on “stridency”! Sure. I’ll buy that.
But, erm, Ed, you go on to contradict yourself with the strident sentence, “Nevertheless, I will say that the idea of a reader being forced at near gunpoint to buy something from an independent bookstore is as repellent to me as a knee-jerk Tea Party recruitment or neoliberal entitlement.” (I’m trying to imagine how a “knee-jerk Tea Party recruitment” would look but that’s beside the point, I guess).
Also:
“We’re here to encourage people to read and we need to respect their right to choose. We need to encourage them to become regular customers not through duress, but by listening to what excites them.”
People who submit material to zines are already a fairly small subset of the generally-book-buying part of the public; you make it sound as though there’s a noble outreach to the illiterate unwashed going on here. The “stridency” you decry (and then immediately indulge in a sillier version of) is in reaction to just such sanctimonious posturing.
“What’s called for here is friendly and inviting persuasion, not sanctimonious posturing.”
1. Your use of the word “laughable”, and the reference to “pro-lifers”, is your idea of “friendly and inviting persuasion”, I take it.
2. I love the condescension, which, again, channels the Tin House condescension and passes it through a Sillification device, gratis. What kind of “friendly and inviting persuasion” had you in mind? Scooting across the couch to an undergrad playing Grand Theft Auto, ruffling his hair and purring, “Why not put down the console, friend, and discover a wonderful new world of books at your local indie brick-and-mortar? If just three or four of you manuscript-submitters do so this year, a quaint little bookstore will be able to cover half of its coffee expenses for the following spring! Just think of it!”?
Total posturing. You and Tin House both. At least Tin House’s iteration was almost kinda slightly funny in parts. You want to help “Literary Culture” in its bubble? Raise the level of your own output, Ed! Wed all that sanctimonious energy to a little proficiency. Teach by example, not by ‘tude.
.
“Raise the level of your own output, Ed!”
Oh shit; let me qualify that statement before it’s too late: raise the level of the *quality* of your output. (Pfew!)
“What kind of “friendly and inviting persuasion” had you in mind? Scooting across the couch to an undergrad playing Grand Theft Auto, ruffling his hair and purring, “Why not put down the console, friend, and discover a wonderful new world of books at your local indie brick-and-mortar? If just three or four of you manuscript-submitters do so this year, a quaint little bookstore will be able to cover half of its coffee expenses for the following spring! Just think of it!”?”
___________________
Hilarious.
Edward Champion sermonizes on “stridency”! Sure. I’ll buy that.
But, erm, Ed, you go on to contradict yourself with the strident sentence, “Nevertheless, I will say that the idea of a reader being forced at near gunpoint to buy something from an independent bookstore is as repellent to me as a knee-jerk Tea Party recruitment or neoliberal entitlement.” (I’m trying to imagine how a “knee-jerk Tea Party recruitment” would look but that’s beside the point, I guess).
Also:
“We’re here to encourage people to read and we need to respect their right to choose. We need to encourage them to become regular customers not through duress, but by listening to what excites them.”
People who submit material to zines are already a fairly small subset of the generally-book-buying part of the public; you make it sound as though there’s a noble outreach to the illiterate unwashed going on here. The “stridency” you decry (and then immediately indulge in a sillier version of) is in reaction to just such sanctimonious posturing.
“What’s called for here is friendly and inviting persuasion, not sanctimonious posturing.”
1. Your use of the word “laughable”, and the reference to “pro-lifers”, is your idea of “friendly and inviting persuasion”, I take it.
2. I love the condescension, which, again, channels the Tin House condescension and passes it through a Sillification device, gratis. What kind of “friendly and inviting persuasion” had you in mind? Scooting across the couch to an undergrad playing Grand Theft Auto, ruffling his hair and purring, “Why not put down the console, friend, and discover a wonderful new world of books at your local indie brick-and-mortar? If just three or four of you manuscript-submitters do so this year, a quaint little bookstore will be able to cover half of its coffee expenses for the following spring! Just think of it!”?
Total posturing. You and Tin House both. At least Tin House’s iteration was almost kinda slightly funny in parts. You want to help “Literary Culture” in its bubble? Raise the level of your own output, Ed! Wed all that sanctimonious energy to a little proficiency. Teach by example, not by ‘tude.
.
“Raise the level of your own output, Ed!”
Oh shit; let me qualify that statement before it’s too late: raise the level of the *quality* of your output. (Pfew!)
Steven: You accuse me of posturing when this response clearly indicates that you have neither interest nor understanding in other people.
“What kind of “friendly and inviting persuasion” had you in mind? Scooting across the couch to an undergrad playing Grand Theft Auto, ruffling his hair and purring, “Why not put down the console, friend, and discover a wonderful new world of books at your local indie brick-and-mortar? If just three or four of you manuscript-submitters do so this year, a quaint little bookstore will be able to cover half of its coffee expenses for the following spring! Just think of it!”?”
___________________
Hilarious.
“Steven: You accuse me of posturing when this response clearly indicates that you have neither interest nor understanding in other people.”
Ed, it’s true: I have no understanding “in” other people. But I *am* interested in other people, whether I sympathize with their posturing or not. Also, I take exception to your shoddy writing and skimmed readings in light of your absurd posture as a champion/crusader/populist messiah of Lit. I’m sure you’re a nice guy (offline) but you and your unwitting co-conspirators (all those people with maximum ambition plus a profound inability to recognize or admit your obvious limits) are fucking up, in your cumulative way, something I seriously care about. For every hard-working apprentice who is sweating over a sentence at this very moment in a humble effort to *get it right*, there are a thousand bluggers like you out there, pumping out gunk like a BP leak. I’d forgive you if you were stupid but you aren’t, man… and maybe that’s what bugs me the most.
But I digress.
This strikes me as fundamentally misguided. Sure, we want to save book stores, sure, editors are overloaded, sure, most writers benefit from reading more. So far, we can all more or less agree. But IMHO, to require anything but great writing from submitting writers places the burden on the wrong party.
Steven: You accuse me of posturing when this response clearly indicates that you have neither interest nor understanding in other people.
[…] HTMLGiant’s self-referential, dog-licking-itself comment box-driven culture […]
Augustine, you are the MAN. I’ve long felt this way about Champion. (And I used to read his blog all the time, until it became evident that nearly every post was the result of severely minimal meditation and contemplation.)
I hope you keep posting, dude. I love reading your stuff, and—gasp!—I’m actually going to click your link and see what lies behind. I almost never do that.
Ryan:
Thanks mon! I’m enjoying the Litbloggosphere 3.0.
I’ll save you some clicks:
http://staugustine2.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/difficult-texts-by-steven-augustine1.pdf
and editorial-type stuff:
http://staugustine2.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/the-endless-thread-7-0/#comment-3545
“Steven: You accuse me of posturing when this response clearly indicates that you have neither interest nor understanding in other people.”
Ed, it’s true: I have no understanding “in” other people. But I *am* interested in other people, whether I sympathize with their posturing or not. Also, I take exception to your shoddy writing and skimmed readings in light of your absurd posture as a champion/crusader/populist messiah of Lit. I’m sure you’re a nice guy (offline) but you and your unwitting co-conspirators (all those people with maximum ambition plus a profound inability to recognize or admit your obvious limits) are fucking up, in your cumulative way, something I seriously care about. For every hard-working apprentice who is sweating over a sentence at this very moment in a humble effort to *get it right*, there are a thousand bluggers like you out there, pumping out gunk like a BP leak. I’d forgive you if you were stupid but you aren’t, man… and maybe that’s what bugs me the most.
But I digress.
This strikes me as fundamentally misguided. Sure, we want to save book stores, sure, editors are overloaded, sure, most writers benefit from reading more. So far, we can all more or less agree. But IMHO, to require anything but great writing from submitting writers places the burden on the wrong party.
Augustine, you are the MAN. I’ve long felt this way about Champion. (And I used to read his blog all the time, until it became evident that nearly every post was the result of severely minimal meditation and contemplation.)
I hope you keep posting, dude. I love reading your stuff, and—gasp!—I’m actually going to click your link and see what lies behind. I almost never do that.
Ryan:
Thanks mon! I’m enjoying the Litbloggosphere 3.0.
I’ll save you some clicks:
http://staugustine2.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/difficult-texts-by-steven-augustine1.pdf
and editorial-type stuff:
http://staugustine2.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/the-endless-thread-7-0/#comment-3545
“But IMHO, to require anything but great writing from submitting writers places the burden on the wrong party.”
That’s the requirement for *publication*. Any tool can submit.
Like most publishers, they most likely receive tons of utter crap submissions from the barely literate and the self-deluding. Or from the Dunning-Kruger faction of aspiring authors too incompetent to perceive their incompetence. And they also get high-quality submissions, most of which they won’t publish for whatever reason.
As long as the submissions outnumber the acceptances, they might as well harness that fact for good.
Ever been to an event where they ask every attendee to bring a can of food or a wrapped toy? That’s what this is. Except you actually get to keep the thing you bought instead of giving it away. That’s all it is.
“The thing that I think many here are missing is the incredible volume of submissions Tin House must get. ”
Reading the comments here, you’d think submitting to a lit mag is like catching the train to Hogwarts. Only the special ones can even get on the right platform.
In reality any fool can submit, and they do.
“Tin House doesn’t even stipulate that the purchase should be made at an independent bookstore. ”
They don’t even describe what they mean by ‘bookstore’. Wal-Mart sells books.
Heck, they don’t even specify that it must be a *new* book.
I didn’t see any requirement that the receipt be for a new book.
“But IMHO, to require anything but great writing from submitting writers places the burden on the wrong party.”
That’s the requirement for *publication*. Any tool can submit.
Like most publishers, they most likely receive tons of utter crap submissions from the barely literate and the self-deluding. Or from the Dunning-Kruger faction of aspiring authors too incompetent to perceive their incompetence. And they also get high-quality submissions, most of which they won’t publish for whatever reason.
As long as the submissions outnumber the acceptances, they might as well harness that fact for good.
Ever been to an event where they ask every attendee to bring a can of food or a wrapped toy? That’s what this is. Except you actually get to keep the thing you bought instead of giving it away. That’s all it is.
“The thing that I think many here are missing is the incredible volume of submissions Tin House must get. ”
Reading the comments here, you’d think submitting to a lit mag is like catching the train to Hogwarts. Only the special ones can even get on the right platform.
In reality any fool can submit, and they do.
“Tin House doesn’t even stipulate that the purchase should be made at an independent bookstore. ”
They don’t even describe what they mean by ‘bookstore’. Wal-Mart sells books.
Heck, they don’t even specify that it must be a *new* book.
I didn’t see any requirement that the receipt be for a new book.
[…] bookstores need your bucks!—to calling it out as elitist, urbancentric, condescending, and rude. HTMLGIANT stacked up a good 250 comments before turning them off with one measured response from Electric […]
One very general point: though I do not agree with the basic tenets of free market capitalism, it is the structure we’re stuck with. As such, businesses are free to succeed or fail, and a large part of that is adaptation over time. Independent bookstores, by and large, have not adapted, and have not figured how to compete with the more business savvy execs at the chains, at Amazon, et al. The explanation I’ve most often heard is that the problem lies in the owners’ collective natural interest: books, as opposed to selling. They may have a point.
I like books. I read a ton of them. Hell, I’ve sold books in independent bookstores. For years. And I’d be happy to see the business model continue into the future. But it’s failing. Fast.
Now, as interested parties, we are perfectly free to help them try to succeed. Tin House is doing so. Many of you are doing so. But at what point should we step back and say, ‘You know what? This store is failing. This model is failing. Not through lack of community support, but through lack of business innovation, and in truth – they should be allowed to fail.’
n.b.: I know of a store in the NYC area that was in serious trouble, largely because the owner was a terrible businessman. But instead of closing, the store was saved by a wealthy celebrity who simply donated a large chunk of money. Personally, I find that appalling. Maybe you don’t.
One very general point: though I do not agree with the basic tenets of free market capitalism, it is the structure we’re stuck with. As such, businesses are free to succeed or fail, and a large part of that is adaptation over time. Independent bookstores, by and large, have not adapted, and have not figured how to compete with the more business savvy execs at the chains, at Amazon, et al. The explanation I’ve most often heard is that the problem lies in the owners’ collective natural interest: books, as opposed to selling. They may have a point.
I like books. I read a ton of them. Hell, I’ve sold books in independent bookstores. For years. And I’d be happy to see the business model continue into the future. But it’s failing. Fast.
Now, as interested parties, we are perfectly free to help them try to succeed. Tin House is doing so. Many of you are doing so. But at what point should we step back and say, ‘You know what? This store is failing. This model is failing. Not through lack of community support, but through lack of business innovation, and in truth – they should be allowed to fail.’
n.b.: I know of a store in the NYC area that was in serious trouble, largely because the owner was a terrible businessman. But instead of closing, the store was saved by a wealthy celebrity who simply donated a large chunk of money. Personally, I find that appalling. Maybe you don’t.
this is so wrong on so many levels…unfortunately it reduces the credibility of Tin House as a literary journal. Give your authors a little credit and stop treating them like they’re in a pre-k set up…
this is so wrong on so many levels…unfortunately it reduces the credibility of Tin House as a literary journal. Give your authors a little credit and stop treating them like they’re in a pre-k set up…
Yes. Clicky, clicky.
[…] I read this and then I read this, and then as we know there is the Tin House thing and Brevity isconsidering a reading fee to help fund honorariums and, […]
Yes. Clicky, clicky.
Wow. Lots of feelings about being asked to buy a publication when asking to be considered for publication. What’s up?
Isn’t this a little like wanting to do all the talking and no listening?
Wow. Lots of feelings about being asked to buy a publication when asking to be considered for publication. What’s up?
Isn’t this a little like wanting to do all the talking and no listening?
[…] All proceeds will go to the Tin House Fund to Save the Independent Bookstore. […]