September 28th, 2009 / 11:51 am
Random

On Brandi Wells’s ‘Instructional’

ntm2-1-9HTMLGIANT reader Joseph Goosey asks in a recent email:

Regarding Ms. Brandi Wells’s piece in the latest PANK, could a male have gotten away with composing a similar piece, let alone publishing it in a fine journal?

Anyhow, I asked Roxane Gay, new HTMLGIANT contributor and current Associate Editor of PANK, if she’d like to respond to Goosey’s question before I posted it for others to comment on. Here’s what she sent back via email:

I definitely think a man could have “gotten away” with writing a similar story for a couple reasons. First, we don’t read blind at PANK but our submission manager assigns each file a number and if the writer doesn’t include their name in their .doc file, we have no real way of knowing who they are as we read submissions. I’m far too lazy to open up Firefox and see who wrote what as I’m reading. There was no identifying information in Brandi’s file so Instructional could have been written by anyone. I loved the story and didn’t give a thought to the gender of its author.

If I had seen a man’s name in the file, I would have thought, “eww, perv,” or “this is creepy, I hope he never finds out where I live,” but I still would have loved and chosen the story. The writing is spectacular.

I also think it’s a bit… sexist (or something) to assume that it’s somehow safer or more acceptable for a woman to write a graphic, uncomfortable story. This is not a case where it’s different for girls.

Tags: ,

224 Comments

  1. Laird

      I have an answer to Goosey’s question: no man would ever write something like this about rape.

  2. Laird

      I have an answer to Goosey’s question: no man would ever write something like this about rape.

  3. Laird

      I have an answer to Goosey’s question: no man would ever write something like this about rape.

  4. anyreads

      Roxane

      “if the writer doesn’t include their name in their .doc file”

      i was trained to always always always forever put your name address & all other info in my sub file, and lastname at the top of every page

      you now think in the days of submgr it’s better to do otherwise, omit this, especially for writers who don’t want the possibility of first bad negative impression from our names & info?

  5. anyreads

      Roxane

      “if the writer doesn’t include their name in their .doc file”

      i was trained to always always always forever put your name address & all other info in my sub file, and lastname at the top of every page

      you now think in the days of submgr it’s better to do otherwise, omit this, especially for writers who don’t want the possibility of first bad negative impression from our names & info?

  6. anyreads

      Roxane

      “if the writer doesn’t include their name in their .doc file”

      i was trained to always always always forever put your name address & all other info in my sub file, and lastname at the top of every page

      you now think in the days of submgr it’s better to do otherwise, omit this, especially for writers who don’t want the possibility of first bad negative impression from our names & info?

  7. Adam Robinson

      And why would he want to?

  8. Adam Robinson

      And why would he want to?

  9. Adam Robinson

      And why would he want to?

  10. joseph

      Roxane- thanks for the reply. I wasn’t really assuming whether it was or was not safer for a man to write this way- I was really just wondering whether people on the whole thought it was or not. I guess my question is more about the receiving end than the creator. maybe.

      There’s a conflict between Roxane saying it’s ” a bit sexist” to say it’s safe for a woman to write like this and not a man and Laird saying “no man would.” If “no man would write something like this” would it be because he had reservations about how it would go over or because he simply wouldn’t think to “write something like this”?

  11. joseph

      Roxane- thanks for the reply. I wasn’t really assuming whether it was or was not safer for a man to write this way- I was really just wondering whether people on the whole thought it was or not. I guess my question is more about the receiving end than the creator. maybe.

      There’s a conflict between Roxane saying it’s ” a bit sexist” to say it’s safe for a woman to write like this and not a man and Laird saying “no man would.” If “no man would write something like this” would it be because he had reservations about how it would go over or because he simply wouldn’t think to “write something like this”?

  12. joseph

      Roxane- thanks for the reply. I wasn’t really assuming whether it was or was not safer for a man to write this way- I was really just wondering whether people on the whole thought it was or not. I guess my question is more about the receiving end than the creator. maybe.

      There’s a conflict between Roxane saying it’s ” a bit sexist” to say it’s safe for a woman to write like this and not a man and Laird saying “no man would.” If “no man would write something like this” would it be because he had reservations about how it would go over or because he simply wouldn’t think to “write something like this”?

  13. Blake Butler

      Men don’t write about rape?

      News to me.

  14. Blake Butler

      Men don’t write about rape?

      News to me.

  15. Ryan Call

      i was trying to think of men-writing-rape-of-women to include in this post as examples, but nothing immediately came to mind, except the painting.

  16. Ryan Call

      i was trying to think of men-writing-rape-of-women to include in this post as examples, but nothing immediately came to mind, except the painting.

  17. Roxane Gay

      I know we were all trained to do that name/address all over the page but where submission managers are concerned, that information is already permanently archived. I cannot speak for the peccadilloes of other magazines who often have stringent guidelines about contact information in a file. I like when there’s no name on a story or poem(s) so I can judge the work on its own merits. Editors are human. That small bit of anonymity coupled with my laziness makes it easier to accept the work of people I don’t or conversely, do like.

  18. Roxane Gay

      I know we were all trained to do that name/address all over the page but where submission managers are concerned, that information is already permanently archived. I cannot speak for the peccadilloes of other magazines who often have stringent guidelines about contact information in a file. I like when there’s no name on a story or poem(s) so I can judge the work on its own merits. Editors are human. That small bit of anonymity coupled with my laziness makes it easier to accept the work of people I don’t or conversely, do like.

  19. Roxane Gay

      I don’t think that’s true…

  20. Roxane Gay

      I don’t think that’s true…

  21. Roxane Gay

      Joseph, I thought it was a great question. There’s a lot to think about with this kind of writing, but I generally ponder this sort of stuff long after I’ve accepted a story. That’s one of the many many things I’ve enjoyed about Instructional… I’m still thinking through the work.

  22. Roxane Gay

      Joseph, I thought it was a great question. There’s a lot to think about with this kind of writing, but I generally ponder this sort of stuff long after I’ve accepted a story. That’s one of the many many things I’ve enjoyed about Instructional… I’m still thinking through the work.

  23. Blake Butler

      Sade, Cooper, Ditrapano, Saramago, Delaney, Genet, Artaud, Burroughs, Ellis, Goransson…

  24. Rion

      I think a more interesting question is, How would our reading of the story change if it had been written by a man? I remember being “relieved,” for lack of a better word, that a woman was the author. One thing I liked about the story was that it caused a lot of discomfort. Is the narrarator serious? Fantasizing? Attempting to wrest control in an uncontrollable situation? Am I “viewing” a rape? BDSM play? How should I feel about all of this? If it were written by a man there would be that extra layer of discomfort. Not sure if that would be a good or a bad thing.

      Since we are in the world of fiction though, that discomfort (for me at least) would evaporate pretty quickly. And I would be impressed by the story the same way.

      I published a story with a similar (but different) theme over on Bartleby Snopes recently. I was concerned that people would think I was world-class perv or that the narrarator’s thoughts were mine (I’m a man as is the narrarator of my piece). I went as far as to show it to a female friend to make sure she didn’t think I was writing about her experiences.

      Another female friend of mine who reads my work said she was surprised it was picked up as it was just an asshole droning on about being an asshole. I asked my SO if she liked my piece. She paused and, choosing her words carefully, said, “I can’t say that I ‘like’ the story because it would say something about me as a woman, but sure it’s well written.”

      Back to Instructional, I agree with Roxane that it is sexist (or something)* to imply that women have some sort of privelege in this situation and that it is unfar. I don’t believe that is the case.

      *(Let me be clear, I am not calling the questioner a sexist, as I think he asked a valid question. And it is possible to hold racially or gender dismissive ideas without being a “sexist” or a “racist.” Much of that lies in the unconscious and it is a good idea to periodically call out those thoughts (or actions) in ourselves and in others.)

  25. mimi

      Males have “gotten away with composing … similar …..”, “let alone publishing it in a fine journal” —– and much, much worse.
      I agree with Roxane that “The writing is spectacular.” in Wells’ piece.

  26. Blake Butler

      Sade, Cooper, Ditrapano, Saramago, Delaney, Genet, Artaud, Burroughs, Ellis, Goransson…

  27. Rion

      I think a more interesting question is, How would our reading of the story change if it had been written by a man? I remember being “relieved,” for lack of a better word, that a woman was the author. One thing I liked about the story was that it caused a lot of discomfort. Is the narrarator serious? Fantasizing? Attempting to wrest control in an uncontrollable situation? Am I “viewing” a rape? BDSM play? How should I feel about all of this? If it were written by a man there would be that extra layer of discomfort. Not sure if that would be a good or a bad thing.

      Since we are in the world of fiction though, that discomfort (for me at least) would evaporate pretty quickly. And I would be impressed by the story the same way.

      I published a story with a similar (but different) theme over on Bartleby Snopes recently. I was concerned that people would think I was world-class perv or that the narrarator’s thoughts were mine (I’m a man as is the narrarator of my piece). I went as far as to show it to a female friend to make sure she didn’t think I was writing about her experiences.

      Another female friend of mine who reads my work said she was surprised it was picked up as it was just an asshole droning on about being an asshole. I asked my SO if she liked my piece. She paused and, choosing her words carefully, said, “I can’t say that I ‘like’ the story because it would say something about me as a woman, but sure it’s well written.”

      Back to Instructional, I agree with Roxane that it is sexist (or something)* to imply that women have some sort of privelege in this situation and that it is unfar. I don’t believe that is the case.

      *(Let me be clear, I am not calling the questioner a sexist, as I think he asked a valid question. And it is possible to hold racially or gender dismissive ideas without being a “sexist” or a “racist.” Much of that lies in the unconscious and it is a good idea to periodically call out those thoughts (or actions) in ourselves and in others.)

  28. mimi

      Males have “gotten away with composing … similar …..”, “let alone publishing it in a fine journal” —– and much, much worse.
      I agree with Roxane that “The writing is spectacular.” in Wells’ piece.

  29. Ryan Call

      thank you

  30. KevinS

      I read that story a couple of days ago and I think it’s a great and disturbing piece of work by Miss Wells. I think I’ve seen gay (male) writers do the rape thing a few times as well (Shane Allison for example).

  31. Ryan Call

      thank you

  32. KevinS

      I read that story a couple of days ago and I think it’s a great and disturbing piece of work by Miss Wells. I think I’ve seen gay (male) writers do the rape thing a few times as well (Shane Allison for example).

  33. joseph

      I suppose Rion’s rephrasing is more what I was aiming for and simply couldn’t come up with a better way to ask the question at the time.

      Certainly anyone can and does write rape (see Blake’s list of excellence above) but not usually “like this.” the “like this” portion being what I like about this piece so much. It’s almost nonchalant style creates the opposite of nonchalant feeling.

  34. joseph

      I suppose Rion’s rephrasing is more what I was aiming for and simply couldn’t come up with a better way to ask the question at the time.

      Certainly anyone can and does write rape (see Blake’s list of excellence above) but not usually “like this.” the “like this” portion being what I like about this piece so much. It’s almost nonchalant style creates the opposite of nonchalant feeling.

  35. Blake Butler

      do you think it is the instructional tone of it, the demand in it, that is making it powered differently to you? the second person? if it were just a scene of a girl saying those things to someone it would likely be just a piece of fluff?

      on another page, i think a man could still do something like this. it might be easily misinterpreted, and easily turned off by many because of the assumption of it, but i still think it would be just as valid/interesting. shit, maybe even more so. maybe not.

  36. Blake Butler

      do you think it is the instructional tone of it, the demand in it, that is making it powered differently to you? the second person? if it were just a scene of a girl saying those things to someone it would likely be just a piece of fluff?

      on another page, i think a man could still do something like this. it might be easily misinterpreted, and easily turned off by many because of the assumption of it, but i still think it would be just as valid/interesting. shit, maybe even more so. maybe not.

  37. Blake Butler

      Saramago’s rendering of the women getting raped in Blindness is one of two scenes in all of literature that has literally made me cry.

  38. Blake Butler

      Saramago’s rendering of the women getting raped in Blindness is one of two scenes in all of literature that has literally made me cry.

  39. Blake Butler

      also, ryan, did you really write

      wells’

      and not wells’s

      i am sad at you

      :P

  40. Blake Butler

      also, ryan, did you really write

      wells’

      and not wells’s

      i am sad at you

      :P

  41. Ryan Call

      mike young and i have talked about this too. which is it supposed to be? wells’ or wells’s? good grief

  42. Ryan Call

      mike young and i have talked about this too. which is it supposed to be? wells’ or wells’s? good grief

  43. Ryan Call

      yes i remember tha tnow

  44. Blake Butler

      read your Strunk and White, yo

  45. Ryan Call

      yes i remember tha tnow

  46. Blake Butler

      read your Strunk and White, yo

  47. Blake Butler

      Man, I want a full length book by Brandi, btw

  48. Blake Butler

      Man, I want a full length book by Brandi, btw

  49. Brandi

      People say Jesus’ all the time. Why not Wells’ ??

  50. Brandi

      People say Jesus’ all the time. Why not Wells’ ??

  51. Blake Butler

      that goddamn Denis Johnson

  52. Blake Butler

      that goddamn Denis Johnson

  53. mike young

      that’s the weird caveat that makes it such a silly and exciting rule

      Strunk and White say you throw in the two s’s (Wells’s) EXCEPT (and ONLY except) when it is the name of some historical figure

      why?

      no one knows

      it’s like a game

      the conclusion being: brandi, you need to start your own religion and become historic!

      which is always the conclusion for some reason

      good story!

  54. mike young

      that’s the weird caveat that makes it such a silly and exciting rule

      Strunk and White say you throw in the two s’s (Wells’s) EXCEPT (and ONLY except) when it is the name of some historical figure

      why?

      no one knows

      it’s like a game

      the conclusion being: brandi, you need to start your own religion and become historic!

      which is always the conclusion for some reason

      good story!

  55. james yeh

      heh

  56. james yeh

      heh

  57. mike

      where in cooper does a woman get raped?

  58. Ryan Call

      i just checked mla style and chicago style. i think my confusion is that im incorrectly applying the rule for plural nouns to singular propernames.

  59. mike

      where in cooper does a woman get raped?

  60. Ryan Call

      i just checked mla style and chicago style. i think my confusion is that im incorrectly applying the rule for plural nouns to singular propernames.

  61. Blake Butler

      i wasn’t listing women getting raped exclusively, i was listing people who write about rape of self also, which would be cooper.

      hmm, i wonder if there are ever references in his work, though, where women do get raped. trolling my mind…

  62. Blake Butler

      i wasn’t listing women getting raped exclusively, i was listing people who write about rape of self also, which would be cooper.

      hmm, i wonder if there are ever references in his work, though, where women do get raped. trolling my mind…

  63. sasha fletcher

      get on that shit wells.

  64. sasha fletcher

      get on that shit wells.

  65. david erlewine

      enjoyed your story. think i saw that magician film as a kid.

  66. Brandi

      i know, right?
      right now all i have written is this list of things i want for dinner.

  67. david erlewine

      enjoyed your story. think i saw that magician film as a kid.

  68. Brandi

      i know, right?
      right now all i have written is this list of things i want for dinner.

  69. david erlewine

      Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck

      I was on the train reading that scene. Hard going to work that morning.

  70. david erlewine

      Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck

      I was on the train reading that scene. Hard going to work that morning.

  71. david erlewine

      once that makes her a historical figure, then what?

  72. david erlewine

      once that makes her a historical figure, then what?

  73. Rion

      Ha! Thanks David. A few weeks ago I found that very scene on the internet through the magic of Google. Not nearly as sexy as I thought it was when I was 12.

  74. Rion

      Ha! Thanks David. A few weeks ago I found that very scene on the internet through the magic of Google. Not nearly as sexy as I thought it was when I was 12.

  75. darby

      there’s a difference between writing rape and writing about rape though. I’ve written a piece that had rape. a piece published by dicey brown first print issue.

  76. mike

      i am 95% sure that the only books of his that actually have male-female sex (try, my loose thread, and guide) are more or less consensual (except for the lesbian child pornographer in guide, which would could say isn’t a consensual deal).

  77. darby

      there’s a difference between writing rape and writing about rape though. I’ve written a piece that had rape. a piece published by dicey brown first print issue.

  78. mike

      i am 95% sure that the only books of his that actually have male-female sex (try, my loose thread, and guide) are more or less consensual (except for the lesbian child pornographer in guide, which would could say isn’t a consensual deal).

  79. Blake Butler

      there were some really weird overtones to it in My Loose Thread, though nothing specific or on the page, something just unsettling about the way it was handled, mostly via the phone conversations. still, not really rape, but definitely unorthodox.

      anyway, yes, there is a difference between writing it and writing about it. Gian’s piece that was in No Colony 1 is some of the best rape-related writing I’ve read, and I think it is being reprinted online soon

  80. Blake Butler

      there were some really weird overtones to it in My Loose Thread, though nothing specific or on the page, something just unsettling about the way it was handled, mostly via the phone conversations. still, not really rape, but definitely unorthodox.

      anyway, yes, there is a difference between writing it and writing about it. Gian’s piece that was in No Colony 1 is some of the best rape-related writing I’ve read, and I think it is being reprinted online soon

  81. jereme

      does any one know what rape is? reading this thread i don’t think so. this piece is nothing about rape. rape is about power. the rape victim in this narrative is in power so therefore it’s not rape but just a sick sexual fantasy and by sick i mean deviant and by deviant i mean healthy and normal but shit upon by the moral right.

      good job to brandi but this is not about rape at all.

  82. mike

      jesus ignacio aldapuerta, peter sotos, andre pieyre de mandiargues, alain robbe-grillet, bernard noel, j. eric miller

  83. jereme

      does any one know what rape is? reading this thread i don’t think so. this piece is nothing about rape. rape is about power. the rape victim in this narrative is in power so therefore it’s not rape but just a sick sexual fantasy and by sick i mean deviant and by deviant i mean healthy and normal but shit upon by the moral right.

      good job to brandi but this is not about rape at all.

  84. mike

      jesus ignacio aldapuerta, peter sotos, andre pieyre de mandiargues, alain robbe-grillet, bernard noel, j. eric miller

  85. Blake Butler

      i think you are definitely right. i didn’t think ‘rape’ when i read it either. but the question of entitlement in perspective is still interesting, if totally unrelated

  86. jereme

      a man could do something like this but it’s not rape. this is all sexual fantasy.

  87. Blake Butler

      i think you are definitely right. i didn’t think ‘rape’ when i read it either. but the question of entitlement in perspective is still interesting, if totally unrelated

  88. jereme

      a man could do something like this but it’s not rape. this is all sexual fantasy.

  89. Rion

      Jereme,

      If It is a sexual fantasy, it is a rape fantasy. The author uses the word “rape” twice in the piece. There is little context in the piece so the reader is free to supply that context. It’s not unusual that the context some of us supply is of a “rape.”

      What if it’s not a sexual fantasy? What if it’s the narrarator’s thoughts post-rape. An attempt to grap power from an attacker. Shit, what if it’s the rapist’s thoughts pre/during/post crime.

      Anyway, one of the good things about the piece is it invites multiple reads and rape is a legitimate read, IMO.

  90. Rion

      Jereme,

      If It is a sexual fantasy, it is a rape fantasy. The author uses the word “rape” twice in the piece. There is little context in the piece so the reader is free to supply that context. It’s not unusual that the context some of us supply is of a “rape.”

      What if it’s not a sexual fantasy? What if it’s the narrarator’s thoughts post-rape. An attempt to grap power from an attacker. Shit, what if it’s the rapist’s thoughts pre/during/post crime.

      Anyway, one of the good things about the piece is it invites multiple reads and rape is a legitimate read, IMO.

  91. jereme

      i hear what you are saying RIon but this is not about power being exerted over another which is the clinical definition of rape. Rapists don’t care what a person looks like, which is why you hear of sick shit like an 80 year old woman being raped, it is about power.

      clearly in Brandi’s piece the rapist is not in power.

      “Then force your way in. This isn’t hot at all because I’m dry-dry. Like, sandpaper, sandbox, middle of the night thirsty-dry. I mean, back up dude. Give me a chance to get wet. Lick your fingers, rub my clit, and pinch my goddamn nipples. Breathe heavy on my neck. Bite the back of my shoulder.

      Wrap your arms around me so I feel how small I am.”

      There is a longing, a desire, a liking here. The rape victim/narrator is clearly in power.

      Brandi can speak on what this piece is really about. I am not her mind.

      But from a clinical perspective, this piece is not about rape in my eyes.

  92. jereme

      i hear what you are saying RIon but this is not about power being exerted over another which is the clinical definition of rape. Rapists don’t care what a person looks like, which is why you hear of sick shit like an 80 year old woman being raped, it is about power.

      clearly in Brandi’s piece the rapist is not in power.

      “Then force your way in. This isn’t hot at all because I’m dry-dry. Like, sandpaper, sandbox, middle of the night thirsty-dry. I mean, back up dude. Give me a chance to get wet. Lick your fingers, rub my clit, and pinch my goddamn nipples. Breathe heavy on my neck. Bite the back of my shoulder.

      Wrap your arms around me so I feel how small I am.”

      There is a longing, a desire, a liking here. The rape victim/narrator is clearly in power.

      Brandi can speak on what this piece is really about. I am not her mind.

      But from a clinical perspective, this piece is not about rape in my eyes.

  93. Roxane Gay

      That scene in the book was… so difficult and so well done. When I saw the movie, I was really conflicted.

  94. Roxane Gay

      That scene in the book was… so difficult and so well done. When I saw the movie, I was really conflicted.

  95. chelsea martin

      women frequently get wet during rape as a defense mechanism against vaginal ripping.

  96. chelsea martin

      women frequently get wet during rape as a defense mechanism against vaginal ripping.

  97. darby

      ‘clearly in Brandi’s piece the rapist is not in power.’

      are you sure the piece can’t be read differently? Empirically, the rapist is in power. Only in the narrator’s head is something going on. Perhaps the narrator is unreliable, in denial of what is really happening, or trying to psychologically maintain some sort of control over what’s happening, etc?

      i don’t really like unpacking the piece like this though, is it rape, is it not. who cares. it’s a story where a thing is happening.

  98. darby

      ‘clearly in Brandi’s piece the rapist is not in power.’

      are you sure the piece can’t be read differently? Empirically, the rapist is in power. Only in the narrator’s head is something going on. Perhaps the narrator is unreliable, in denial of what is really happening, or trying to psychologically maintain some sort of control over what’s happening, etc?

      i don’t really like unpacking the piece like this though, is it rape, is it not. who cares. it’s a story where a thing is happening.

  99. jereme

      you are funny darby. you analyze so much shit but yet you never want to analyze writing it seems. i don’t know.

      anyways, the rapist is not in power because the rape victim is taking the power away from him.

      she wants to feel “small”. she wants it to be a good “rape”. “do it right so i thoroughly enjoy it”, she says.

      she even ends it with the common 21st century task of “checking facebook”. How can power be exerted over another person if they find the act banal and unsatisfying?

      but it’s not a rape per se. it’s a sexual fantasy of rape which is completely healthy.

      fetish is weakness because a person hides it. fetish is healthy. i read this as partly fetishistic and nothing more.

  100. jereme

      you are funny darby. you analyze so much shit but yet you never want to analyze writing it seems. i don’t know.

      anyways, the rapist is not in power because the rape victim is taking the power away from him.

      she wants to feel “small”. she wants it to be a good “rape”. “do it right so i thoroughly enjoy it”, she says.

      she even ends it with the common 21st century task of “checking facebook”. How can power be exerted over another person if they find the act banal and unsatisfying?

      but it’s not a rape per se. it’s a sexual fantasy of rape which is completely healthy.

      fetish is weakness because a person hides it. fetish is healthy. i read this as partly fetishistic and nothing more.

  101. jereme

      and i think you are dead wrong on the topic of “who cares if it is rape or not”. It is in integral part of the piece and completely changes the read.

  102. jereme

      and i think you are dead wrong on the topic of “who cares if it is rape or not”. It is in integral part of the piece and completely changes the read.

  103. Richard

      “women frequently get wet during rape as a defense mechanism against vaginal ripping.” – wow, not sure if i can even follow that comment

      I want to say Hubert Selby Jr. wrote a brutal scene in LAST EXIT TO BROOKLYN, right?

  104. Richard

      “women frequently get wet during rape as a defense mechanism against vaginal ripping.” – wow, not sure if i can even follow that comment

      I want to say Hubert Selby Jr. wrote a brutal scene in LAST EXIT TO BROOKLYN, right?

  105. Kyle Minor

      Thank you, Roxane, for your answer, which seems rightminded to me, and by rightminded I mean that literature is not the increasingly narrow political minefield some readers (mostly in the academy) seem to want to make it. If a writer can’t write from the point of view of the “other,” and if “otherness” is unimaginable, then we’ve set up a situation in which the logical end is an empathy that is dispicably walled-off to the only thing one can know with any surety, which is the self.

      Women can write from the point of view of men, men from the point of view of women, black heterosexual men from the South from the point of view of white Swedish lesbians who live in the Australian outback.

      It’s true that the farther one gets from one’s experience, the more difficult it might be to get some things right on behalf of a particular character. But it’s also admirable what the Greeks advocated: I am human, and therefore nothing that is human is alien to me.

      The single most affecting thing I ever wrote, so far as I can tell, was an account of the rape of a young girl by her older cousin in a tobacco field in Kentucky, from the girl’s point of view, and then an expansion outward toward the ways in which the rape colored the way she made choices the rest of her life, and also the way she came to understand her own death while also senile. I read it over 50 times throughout the United States last winter and spring, and it was rare that a woman or even a man didn’t walk up to me after the reading and talk about the way the scene resonated with their own story. What I encountered was a gratitude for the validation that these things happen and here’s how they feel, not a resentment for appropriation.

      For what it’s worth, I based the psychological makeup of the young girl mostly on my own self when I was a 12-year-old boy, and also to some extent upon my grandmother.

      One general idea of humanity literature is capable of embracing is the idea that whatever makes a person human is shared across the divides of gender, race, nationality, and even time. This is why readers so often find the shock of recognition and identification at a line of Basho or Sappho or Homer or the Pentateuch or Shakespeare or the Brontes or Tolstoy or Turgenev or Zola or Flaubert or Proust or Danticat or Munro or Kawabata or Oe or Kundera or Atwood or or or or or or or or or . . . . . . . . . . . .

  106. Kyle Minor

      Thank you, Roxane, for your answer, which seems rightminded to me, and by rightminded I mean that literature is not the increasingly narrow political minefield some readers (mostly in the academy) seem to want to make it. If a writer can’t write from the point of view of the “other,” and if “otherness” is unimaginable, then we’ve set up a situation in which the logical end is an empathy that is dispicably walled-off to the only thing one can know with any surety, which is the self.

      Women can write from the point of view of men, men from the point of view of women, black heterosexual men from the South from the point of view of white Swedish lesbians who live in the Australian outback.

      It’s true that the farther one gets from one’s experience, the more difficult it might be to get some things right on behalf of a particular character. But it’s also admirable what the Greeks advocated: I am human, and therefore nothing that is human is alien to me.

      The single most affecting thing I ever wrote, so far as I can tell, was an account of the rape of a young girl by her older cousin in a tobacco field in Kentucky, from the girl’s point of view, and then an expansion outward toward the ways in which the rape colored the way she made choices the rest of her life, and also the way she came to understand her own death while also senile. I read it over 50 times throughout the United States last winter and spring, and it was rare that a woman or even a man didn’t walk up to me after the reading and talk about the way the scene resonated with their own story. What I encountered was a gratitude for the validation that these things happen and here’s how they feel, not a resentment for appropriation.

      For what it’s worth, I based the psychological makeup of the young girl mostly on my own self when I was a 12-year-old boy, and also to some extent upon my grandmother.

      One general idea of humanity literature is capable of embracing is the idea that whatever makes a person human is shared across the divides of gender, race, nationality, and even time. This is why readers so often find the shock of recognition and identification at a line of Basho or Sappho or Homer or the Pentateuch or Shakespeare or the Brontes or Tolstoy or Turgenev or Zola or Flaubert or Proust or Danticat or Munro or Kawabata or Oe or Kundera or Atwood or or or or or or or or or . . . . . . . . . . . .

  107. darby

      makes sense

  108. darby

      makes sense

  109. rion

      clap clap clap clapclapclapclapclapclap

  110. rion

      clap clap clap clapclapclapclapclapclap

  111. darby

      you’re probably right.

  112. darby

      you’re probably right.

  113. Ken Baumann

      elements up in disss

  114. Ken Baumann

      elements up in disss

  115. Roxane Gay

      With all due respect, I think your reading of the story is how a man might choose to read it. I know plenty of women who would assert that this story is definitely about rape. I don’t know, because I’m not the author but I think your assuming that rape can be neatly defined when such is not the case. Rape is always a hot fucking mess.

  116. Roxane Gay

      With all due respect, I think your reading of the story is how a man might choose to read it. I know plenty of women who would assert that this story is definitely about rape. I don’t know, because I’m not the author but I think your assuming that rape can be neatly defined when such is not the case. Rape is always a hot fucking mess.

  117. Jimmy Chen

      isn’t it possible that brandi simply wrote a provocative and awesome piece that — as part of its awesomeness — is ambivalent and offers no “objective” intent or meaning?

      meaning is imposed by interpretation; it all depends on who is reading it. even if brandi told us right here what she meant, it doesn’t invalidate or validate any person’s interpretation of it.

      the purpose of art is not to answer questions, but provoke questions — which is exactly what she did.

      brandi got the power. good job brandi

  118. Jimmy Chen

      isn’t it possible that brandi simply wrote a provocative and awesome piece that — as part of its awesomeness — is ambivalent and offers no “objective” intent or meaning?

      meaning is imposed by interpretation; it all depends on who is reading it. even if brandi told us right here what she meant, it doesn’t invalidate or validate any person’s interpretation of it.

      the purpose of art is not to answer questions, but provoke questions — which is exactly what she did.

      brandi got the power. good job brandi

  119. gena

      i don’t think it’s about rape at all.

  120. gena

      i don’t think it’s about rape at all.

  121. Steven Trull

      The Wells’ text isn’t that controversial because the character WANTS it! Now, if the narrator was, like, all struggling NOT to get cock in her pussy or ass, or was somehow resisting it altogether, that would be different. Rape happens when the victim does NOT want it. Not when she kind of–well, I don’t know, just hurry up and do it, I said no, wait, no really, I said no, well, okay–wants it. Or not when she is providing instructions on HOW TO DO IT! Does that make sense?

      This doesn’t mean that the text isn’t hot. It’s hot. It’s erotic. It’s not necessarily pornographic, but it’s fun. “Rape” fantasies are fun. Actual rape, oh, even more so!

  122. Steven Trull

      The Wells’ text isn’t that controversial because the character WANTS it! Now, if the narrator was, like, all struggling NOT to get cock in her pussy or ass, or was somehow resisting it altogether, that would be different. Rape happens when the victim does NOT want it. Not when she kind of–well, I don’t know, just hurry up and do it, I said no, wait, no really, I said no, well, okay–wants it. Or not when she is providing instructions on HOW TO DO IT! Does that make sense?

      This doesn’t mean that the text isn’t hot. It’s hot. It’s erotic. It’s not necessarily pornographic, but it’s fun. “Rape” fantasies are fun. Actual rape, oh, even more so!

  123. gena

      and brandi,
      this is my kind of writing. good job.

  124. Steven Trull

      Agreed.

  125. gena

      and brandi,
      this is my kind of writing. good job.

  126. Steven Trull

      Agreed.

  127. Ken Baumann

      yes!

  128. Ken Baumann

      yes!

  129. rion

      ” “Rape” fantasies are fun. Actual rape, oh, even more so!”

      Uh oh, the conversation just turned idiotic.

  130. rion

      ” “Rape” fantasies are fun. Actual rape, oh, even more so!”

      Uh oh, the conversation just turned idiotic.

  131. Steven Trull

      Irony always retains traces of the idiotic. So, thank you Rion. Of course, your comment was purely serious, right?

  132. Steven Trull

      Irony always retains traces of the idiotic. So, thank you Rion. Of course, your comment was purely serious, right?

  133. Roxane Gay

      Thanks for clearing that up.

  134. Roxane Gay

      Thanks for clearing that up.

  135. jereme

      Okay sure Roxane. I am reading it as a “male” and it’s influencing how i interpret it.

      Actually I am reading it objectively with the clinical definition of rape in mind.

      The word “rape” holds no knee-jerk reaction with me. It seems to with others, possibly you. Maybe because you are a woman, maybe not.

      Please show me how I am wrong without blaming my penis for my misinterpretation. I am open but you will have to defend your point.

      or we can just disagree. no sweat off my nuts.

  136. jereme

      Okay sure Roxane. I am reading it as a “male” and it’s influencing how i interpret it.

      Actually I am reading it objectively with the clinical definition of rape in mind.

      The word “rape” holds no knee-jerk reaction with me. It seems to with others, possibly you. Maybe because you are a woman, maybe not.

      Please show me how I am wrong without blaming my penis for my misinterpretation. I am open but you will have to defend your point.

      or we can just disagree. no sweat off my nuts.

  137. jereme

      sure, and htmlg provides a forum to discuss opinions about it.

      what is the issue here?

  138. jereme

      sure, and htmlg provides a forum to discuss opinions about it.

      what is the issue here?

  139. Ken Baumann

      fantastic, as always.

  140. Nathan Tyree

      I’ve written about rape

      One time it involved a walrus

  141. Ken Baumann

      fantastic, as always.

  142. Nathan Tyree

      I’ve written about rape

      One time it involved a walrus

  143. Nathan Tyree

      I have always felt that Strunk and White got that one wrong. The extraneous s is pointless, and it causes people ti pronounce possessives incorrectly (Wells’s is pronounces wells, but people get confused)

  144. Nathan Tyree

      I have always felt that Strunk and White got that one wrong. The extraneous s is pointless, and it causes people ti pronounce possessives incorrectly (Wells’s is pronounces wells, but people get confused)

  145. Nathan Tyree

      Involuntary response. Sometimes rape victims orgasm during the act. This is terrible, because those women tend to suffer more guilt afterwards and we live in a society that already causes rape victims plenty of guilt.

  146. Nathan Tyree

      Involuntary response. Sometimes rape victims orgasm during the act. This is terrible, because those women tend to suffer more guilt afterwards and we live in a society that already causes rape victims plenty of guilt.

  147. Lincoln

      Disagree, since s’ is normally reserved for something that is already plural. Are we talking about something multiple people named Well own? I’m with Strunk here.

  148. Lincoln

      Disagree, since s’ is normally reserved for something that is already plural. Are we talking about something multiple people named Well own? I’m with Strunk here.

  149. Roxane Gay

      I don’t know Jereme. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer. Writing is subjective. There are different interpretations of this story. I just think only a man would refer to a “clinical definition of rape,” like there’s a right and wrong way for rape to occur or that there are gradations of rape. I don’t have evidence to support my opinion. It’s just a gut instinct. I wasn’t thinking of or blaming your penis.Why do guys always reference their penis when their gender is discussed? Maybe you blame your penis. I don’t know.

  150. Roxane Gay

      I don’t know Jereme. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer. Writing is subjective. There are different interpretations of this story. I just think only a man would refer to a “clinical definition of rape,” like there’s a right and wrong way for rape to occur or that there are gradations of rape. I don’t have evidence to support my opinion. It’s just a gut instinct. I wasn’t thinking of or blaming your penis.Why do guys always reference their penis when their gender is discussed? Maybe you blame your penis. I don’t know.

  151. Roxane Gay

      Great observations, Kyle.

  152. Roxane Gay

      Great observations, Kyle.

  153. Steven Trull

      Love what you’re doing with the rejection thing website. Hilarious!

  154. Steven Trull

      Love what you’re doing with the rejection thing website. Hilarious!

  155. PHM

      I just threw something and walked out the door.

  156. PHM

      I just threw something and walked out the door.

  157. jereme

      I don’t understand why you would think my gender has anything to do with the fact that rape is defined by an act of power exerted over another.

      here is the definition from the Encyclopedia of Psychology:

      “Rape is essentially an act of power and dominance. Although an estimated 15 to 40 percent of American women are victims of rape or attempted rape, men are raped as well. Women are more likely to be raped by someone they know; between 50 and 70 percent of all rapes occur within the context of a romantic relationship, and more than half the time the assault takes place in the victim’s home.”

      What i think the heart of our debate is that you think i’m “insensitive” and a “male”. I’m trying to explain that’s not the case. That if you read the piece with the above in mind the writing is not really about true rape.

      I mean the way it’s written the narrator could be daydreaming about rape. A sexual fantasy.

      I think we are back to full circle with the original question about “sexism” or whatever. I think it is valid and you did read it with a female knee-jerk reaction to the subject of rape without really thinking about it.

      rape is fucked up. the word brings forth emotion. i understand.

      just don’t blame me and my gender for your emotional attachment to the word.

      that’s all.

  158. jereme

      I don’t understand why you would think my gender has anything to do with the fact that rape is defined by an act of power exerted over another.

      here is the definition from the Encyclopedia of Psychology:

      “Rape is essentially an act of power and dominance. Although an estimated 15 to 40 percent of American women are victims of rape or attempted rape, men are raped as well. Women are more likely to be raped by someone they know; between 50 and 70 percent of all rapes occur within the context of a romantic relationship, and more than half the time the assault takes place in the victim’s home.”

      What i think the heart of our debate is that you think i’m “insensitive” and a “male”. I’m trying to explain that’s not the case. That if you read the piece with the above in mind the writing is not really about true rape.

      I mean the way it’s written the narrator could be daydreaming about rape. A sexual fantasy.

      I think we are back to full circle with the original question about “sexism” or whatever. I think it is valid and you did read it with a female knee-jerk reaction to the subject of rape without really thinking about it.

      rape is fucked up. the word brings forth emotion. i understand.

      just don’t blame me and my gender for your emotional attachment to the word.

      that’s all.

  159. Roxane Gay

      A female knee-jerk reaction? I think now you’re just being an asshole, and that’s fine, but really, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve read all day and this has nothing to do with emotional attachment. My reading of the story is different from yours. The difference between you and I is that I’m not dismissing your interpretation.

  160. Roxane Gay

      A female knee-jerk reaction? I think now you’re just being an asshole, and that’s fine, but really, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve read all day and this has nothing to do with emotional attachment. My reading of the story is different from yours. The difference between you and I is that I’m not dismissing your interpretation.

  161. gena

      i am a woman and do not think this is about rape. i can relate to this story. i have had similar feelings and fantasies of those in which the woman in the story had. i am not afraid to say it. it seems as though a lot of women look down upon male dominance in a sexual relationship because it makes them unequal to men. i think that is what causes the misinterpretations of what rape is and isn’t. wanting to be dominated sexually by a man does not mean a woman wants to be raped.

  162. gena

      i am a woman and do not think this is about rape. i can relate to this story. i have had similar feelings and fantasies of those in which the woman in the story had. i am not afraid to say it. it seems as though a lot of women look down upon male dominance in a sexual relationship because it makes them unequal to men. i think that is what causes the misinterpretations of what rape is and isn’t. wanting to be dominated sexually by a man does not mean a woman wants to be raped.

  163. Roxane Gay

      Gena, that’s interesting. I definitely think there are multiple ways to read this story. There’s an undeniable eroticism to it.

  164. Roxane Gay

      Gena, that’s interesting. I definitely think there are multiple ways to read this story. There’s an undeniable eroticism to it.

  165. jereme

      well, yeah, i’m the king of assholes. i think you must be last to the party on that idea.

      but i broached the subject of a knee-jerk reaction because a.) you were the first to bring gender up so i gave my honest opinion. b.) your quote that this is a “graphic, uncomfortable story” which is only the case if you believe it is rape.

      i understand your interpretation. it is an interpretation under a false guise. rape is about power, not about cocks being shoved in dry pussies.

      if you can show me that the narrator is not the one in power, i’ll change my mind.

      or just blame my dick again and we can stop the back/forth.

  166. jereme

      well, yeah, i’m the king of assholes. i think you must be last to the party on that idea.

      but i broached the subject of a knee-jerk reaction because a.) you were the first to bring gender up so i gave my honest opinion. b.) your quote that this is a “graphic, uncomfortable story” which is only the case if you believe it is rape.

      i understand your interpretation. it is an interpretation under a false guise. rape is about power, not about cocks being shoved in dry pussies.

      if you can show me that the narrator is not the one in power, i’ll change my mind.

      or just blame my dick again and we can stop the back/forth.

  167. jereme

      so you are saying rape can be erotic? how so?

  168. jereme

      so you are saying rape can be erotic? how so?

  169. Roxane

      No that’s not what I’m saying. And as much as I would love to debate with you, I am human and I honestly cant do it right now without resorting to irritated babble and vitriol.

  170. Roxane

      No that’s not what I’m saying. And as much as I would love to debate with you, I am human and I honestly cant do it right now without resorting to irritated babble and vitriol.

  171. gena

      this is true; there are multiple ways to read this story. however, saying that most, if not all, men would only apply the clinical definition of rape to stories (and acts) like this is an unfair thing to say. my opinion of the story is based on both the clinical definition, as well as my raw emotions toward the subject. i don’t think my emotions are a result of my gender. i think they are a result of my experiences, thoughts, and knowledge of not only rape, but the psychology behind certain acts and the responses they generate. i think that is what certain other people based their opinions on as well.

  172. gena

      this is true; there are multiple ways to read this story. however, saying that most, if not all, men would only apply the clinical definition of rape to stories (and acts) like this is an unfair thing to say. my opinion of the story is based on both the clinical definition, as well as my raw emotions toward the subject. i don’t think my emotions are a result of my gender. i think they are a result of my experiences, thoughts, and knowledge of not only rape, but the psychology behind certain acts and the responses they generate. i think that is what certain other people based their opinions on as well.

  173. Nathan (Nate) Tyree

      In theory: yes. Many people have rape fantasies and they must find those fantasies erotic. A lot of “romance” novels are filled with rape. In reality: no. Rape is a brutal, hateful act.

  174. Nathan (Nate) Tyree

      In theory: yes. Many people have rape fantasies and they must find those fantasies erotic. A lot of “romance” novels are filled with rape. In reality: no. Rape is a brutal, hateful act.

  175. Ryan Call

      jereme,

      reading this: “rape is about power, not about cocks being shoved in dry pussies.” made me think this: could rape be a little bit of both? like, ‘power’ is some abstract notion, right? and ‘cocks being shoved in dry pussies’ is a concrete act (one of the many ways rape can be enacted). like, does it have to be one or the other? or can it be a combination of the abstract impulse behind rape and the action by which that impulse is peformed. i mean this is a minor thing im thinking here, and i dont know if it really has any bearing on the bigger things being discussed, but it seemed interesting to me.

  176. Ryan Call

      jereme,

      reading this: “rape is about power, not about cocks being shoved in dry pussies.” made me think this: could rape be a little bit of both? like, ‘power’ is some abstract notion, right? and ‘cocks being shoved in dry pussies’ is a concrete act (one of the many ways rape can be enacted). like, does it have to be one or the other? or can it be a combination of the abstract impulse behind rape and the action by which that impulse is peformed. i mean this is a minor thing im thinking here, and i dont know if it really has any bearing on the bigger things being discussed, but it seemed interesting to me.

  177. jereme

      interesting, gena touched upon something that i was going to mention but didn’t.

      when i read a story, novel, words, whatever, i am more interested in the psychology behind the story. why did a person write this? what was their motivation? what was/is their brain wave pattern like? i find that concept more interesting than if an apostrophe comes before or after an S. I’m sorry i just don’t care.

      but i know most around here like to do the word jerk-off thing. it’s their drug. i’m cool with it just not my form of masturbation.

      in this particular story psychology is key since “rape” is the subject at cursory glance but not really.

      the narrator wants to feel small, she wants to be bitten and played with, she wants to enjoy it which leads me to believe rape isn’t what’s going on here.

      this is fetish or at least has the psychological markers of fetish not rape.

  178. jereme

      interesting, gena touched upon something that i was going to mention but didn’t.

      when i read a story, novel, words, whatever, i am more interested in the psychology behind the story. why did a person write this? what was their motivation? what was/is their brain wave pattern like? i find that concept more interesting than if an apostrophe comes before or after an S. I’m sorry i just don’t care.

      but i know most around here like to do the word jerk-off thing. it’s their drug. i’m cool with it just not my form of masturbation.

      in this particular story psychology is key since “rape” is the subject at cursory glance but not really.

      the narrator wants to feel small, she wants to be bitten and played with, she wants to enjoy it which leads me to believe rape isn’t what’s going on here.

      this is fetish or at least has the psychological markers of fetish not rape.

  179. jereme

      ryan,

      well sure. power and powerlessness are completely abstract. sexual intercourse can be a means of making a person feel powerless and another feel powerful but the two are not exclusive.

      i can shove a gun in your face and make you feel powerless real fast or put a knife up to your throat or etc.

      this is what the rapist dwells upon. the feeling of power and inflicting powerlessness on another. this is how the sick fuck get’s his/her(mostly his) kicks.

      i read nothing of this in brandi’s piece. i read sexual want and fulfillment/boredom.

      i see no powerlessness going on.

      which is my initial point. rape is not a mere act of a male shoving a cock in another. it is an act of aggression to feel powerful over another.

      without the power, there is no attraction for a rapist.

      “no cry, no hard-on” i think is a bob marley tune.

  180. jereme

      ryan,

      well sure. power and powerlessness are completely abstract. sexual intercourse can be a means of making a person feel powerless and another feel powerful but the two are not exclusive.

      i can shove a gun in your face and make you feel powerless real fast or put a knife up to your throat or etc.

      this is what the rapist dwells upon. the feeling of power and inflicting powerlessness on another. this is how the sick fuck get’s his/her(mostly his) kicks.

      i read nothing of this in brandi’s piece. i read sexual want and fulfillment/boredom.

      i see no powerlessness going on.

      which is my initial point. rape is not a mere act of a male shoving a cock in another. it is an act of aggression to feel powerful over another.

      without the power, there is no attraction for a rapist.

      “no cry, no hard-on” i think is a bob marley tune.

  181. gena

      ryan,
      i know you didn’t address this to me, but i’d like to offer my opinion. i think “rape” is called rape because it combines power and sex. it isn’t just one or the other, or else it would be dubbed either “power” or “sex”. i believe that rape is nearly 100% about power. the way in which the person shows their power though, is through sex. looking at other acts in the same-ish category as rape (murder, torture, etc.), you see that nearly all cases stem from the need to feel powerful. the need to feel powerful inhabits a vast amount of people; however, certain people have different ways of showing their power whether it’s through bullying, rape, abuse, murder, or whatever else. people choose the way that appeals most to them to show their power.

      also, a little off-topic, but i think that the subject of rape being a power-vs-sex thing is often heavily debated due to the act being almost exclusively involved with a man and a woman. murder doesn’t occur like that. nor do many other things that aren’t sexual.

  182. gena

      ryan,
      i know you didn’t address this to me, but i’d like to offer my opinion. i think “rape” is called rape because it combines power and sex. it isn’t just one or the other, or else it would be dubbed either “power” or “sex”. i believe that rape is nearly 100% about power. the way in which the person shows their power though, is through sex. looking at other acts in the same-ish category as rape (murder, torture, etc.), you see that nearly all cases stem from the need to feel powerful. the need to feel powerful inhabits a vast amount of people; however, certain people have different ways of showing their power whether it’s through bullying, rape, abuse, murder, or whatever else. people choose the way that appeals most to them to show their power.

      also, a little off-topic, but i think that the subject of rape being a power-vs-sex thing is often heavily debated due to the act being almost exclusively involved with a man and a woman. murder doesn’t occur like that. nor do many other things that aren’t sexual.

  183. Sabra

      The scene in Pulp Fiction where Zed ass rapes the black guy with the gag in his mouth has always made me feel uncomfortable. But I know a lot of women fantasize about being taken aggressively by men, as men fantasize about aggressive women beating them, and some pay good money for it. If a guy were to write about raping a women they would risk a lot of hate. A woman on the other hand could inoculate herself from a potentially terrifying situation by writing about it and dealing with it as a kinky fantasy. I could see how it would be liberating.

  184. Sabra

      The scene in Pulp Fiction where Zed ass rapes the black guy with the gag in his mouth has always made me feel uncomfortable. But I know a lot of women fantasize about being taken aggressively by men, as men fantasize about aggressive women beating them, and some pay good money for it. If a guy were to write about raping a women they would risk a lot of hate. A woman on the other hand could inoculate herself from a potentially terrifying situation by writing about it and dealing with it as a kinky fantasy. I could see how it would be liberating.

  185. Sabra

      Sorry, I meant raping a womens. Not what I womeant. Or whatever else.

  186. Sabra

      Sorry, I meant raping a womens. Not what I womeant. Or whatever else.

  187. Janey Smith

      ANSWER ME! ISSUE 4 FIND IT READ IT RAPE IT (AND SEND BRANDI A COPY).

  188. Janey Smith

      ANSWER ME! ISSUE 4 FIND IT READ IT RAPE IT (AND SEND BRANDI A COPY).

  189. Ryan

      I’d answer (jumping way back to the OP) yes. Men can be raped, and can write about rape. Men who choose to write about raping might have — as was voiced above — much hate mail. Or not.

      If I were a man and wrote about you (said aggressor) lifting up my skirt, then we shift: Is this a game of a man dressed as a woman, a woman writing from a man’s POV, a man who’s been dressed — against his consent — in a skirt, and is a skirt necessary female? Is this power struggle absent in rape and other fantasies? By writing about rape, am I appropriating power from the act of being a victim of male rape, and is making the distinction that rape is “male” misogynist?

      Is Brandi’s poem a valid attempt to co-opt rape or the rape fantasy and gain power from such first hand witness? I certainly think it capable of generating great discussion here…

  190. Ryan

      I’d answer (jumping way back to the OP) yes. Men can be raped, and can write about rape. Men who choose to write about raping might have — as was voiced above — much hate mail. Or not.

      If I were a man and wrote about you (said aggressor) lifting up my skirt, then we shift: Is this a game of a man dressed as a woman, a woman writing from a man’s POV, a man who’s been dressed — against his consent — in a skirt, and is a skirt necessary female? Is this power struggle absent in rape and other fantasies? By writing about rape, am I appropriating power from the act of being a victim of male rape, and is making the distinction that rape is “male” misogynist?

      Is Brandi’s poem a valid attempt to co-opt rape or the rape fantasy and gain power from such first hand witness? I certainly think it capable of generating great discussion here…

  191. Angi

      Personally, I read it as a rape, and I read the narrator’s attitude as a kind of “fuck you” to the rapist. There’s just a biting oh yeah, that’s how you want it? You want to hold me down like this? etc. thing happening that doesn’t feel at all like actual eroticism or fantasy on the part of the woman. I felt like the man in the scenario might or might not have been a significant other, but regardless, I didn’t see the sex as desired by the narrator at all. I don’t really see how it reads as a rape fantasy; if a woman were acting on a rape fantasy, wouldn’t she in theory be delighting in playing the overpowered victim, not internally diffusing the power held by the man by taking on a kind of scathing, sarcastic attitude toward the whole thing?

  192. Angi

      Personally, I read it as a rape, and I read the narrator’s attitude as a kind of “fuck you” to the rapist. There’s just a biting oh yeah, that’s how you want it? You want to hold me down like this? etc. thing happening that doesn’t feel at all like actual eroticism or fantasy on the part of the woman. I felt like the man in the scenario might or might not have been a significant other, but regardless, I didn’t see the sex as desired by the narrator at all. I don’t really see how it reads as a rape fantasy; if a woman were acting on a rape fantasy, wouldn’t she in theory be delighting in playing the overpowered victim, not internally diffusing the power held by the man by taking on a kind of scathing, sarcastic attitude toward the whole thing?

  193. reynard seifert

      after the shitstorm i got myself into on the rumpus with john madera’s review of chelsea’s book i think it’s going to take a lot for me to ever accuse anyone of sexism again. it’s just, i dunno, it’s too hard.

      i think this is a fascinating conversation & i was already thinking about it after reading it before.

      so i have to say:

      1) men totally write about rape (we’ve been doing it for like, forever, sometimes metaphorically, sometimes not) & there are rape scenes in movies all the time, but probably we do it less now & from a more ‘objective (haha) pov’

      2) it’s not sexist to suggest that a man couldn’t ‘get away with this’ (it could certainly brew up a mighty fine shitstorm), so i really feel like that dog don’t hunt, it’s like an internal feminist thing and i just hate that meta shit ; )

      3) have you guys seen fat girl? it’s directed by a woman & (SPOILER ALERT) the fat girl wants to get raped. essentially she gets exactly what she wants & the movie was widely despised. it was even banned in ontario. ontario!

  194. reynard seifert

      after the shitstorm i got myself into on the rumpus with john madera’s review of chelsea’s book i think it’s going to take a lot for me to ever accuse anyone of sexism again. it’s just, i dunno, it’s too hard.

      i think this is a fascinating conversation & i was already thinking about it after reading it before.

      so i have to say:

      1) men totally write about rape (we’ve been doing it for like, forever, sometimes metaphorically, sometimes not) & there are rape scenes in movies all the time, but probably we do it less now & from a more ‘objective (haha) pov’

      2) it’s not sexist to suggest that a man couldn’t ‘get away with this’ (it could certainly brew up a mighty fine shitstorm), so i really feel like that dog don’t hunt, it’s like an internal feminist thing and i just hate that meta shit ; )

      3) have you guys seen fat girl? it’s directed by a woman & (SPOILER ALERT) the fat girl wants to get raped. essentially she gets exactly what she wants & the movie was widely despised. it was even banned in ontario. ontario!

  195. rion

      oooh, iremember fat girl. saw it while i was in college. still creeped out by that ending.

  196. rion

      oooh, iremember fat girl. saw it while i was in college. still creeped out by that ending.

  197. Sabra

      I guess something to consider is the degree of violence brought about into the actual rape scenario. Say the rape story leaves out gory or explicit details and is more focused on the motivation of the rapist needing the person they force into the situation. Ex. I loved her and she needed to know and I was going to show her whether or nor she knew she loved me too… versus. I cracked her head with a tire iron and ripped into her___ and she screamed and I loved it and beat her and there was blood and I felt like a god, etc. Blood and broken teeth versus mild bondage and implicit penetration…jesus. How’d we get here. I need a drink.

  198. Sabra

      I guess something to consider is the degree of violence brought about into the actual rape scenario. Say the rape story leaves out gory or explicit details and is more focused on the motivation of the rapist needing the person they force into the situation. Ex. I loved her and she needed to know and I was going to show her whether or nor she knew she loved me too… versus. I cracked her head with a tire iron and ripped into her___ and she screamed and I loved it and beat her and there was blood and I felt like a god, etc. Blood and broken teeth versus mild bondage and implicit penetration…jesus. How’d we get here. I need a drink.

  199. Roxane

      That’s actually the best articulation I’ve yet seen of how I too read the story. It has been so interesting to see how people have interpreted the story so differently. I’m extra glad we selected this piece.

  200. Roxane

      That’s actually the best articulation I’ve yet seen of how I too read the story. It has been so interesting to see how people have interpreted the story so differently. I’m extra glad we selected this piece.

  201. Angi

      I’m glad you selected it, too. Clearly, it’s a super powerful piece to provoke this kind of discussion even if not everyone interprets it the same.

      Also, I’m way late to the party, but it’s awesome to see you included to the lineup here at html.

  202. Angi

      I’m glad you selected it, too. Clearly, it’s a super powerful piece to provoke this kind of discussion even if not everyone interprets it the same.

      Also, I’m way late to the party, but it’s awesome to see you included to the lineup here at html.

  203. david erlewine

      Nice point, Sabra, reminded me of the definition provided in Todd Solondz’s “Happiness” – rape is loving someone who doesn’t love you back (or something like that)….one of the creepiest lines of a creepy movie

  204. david erlewine

      Nice point, Sabra, reminded me of the definition provided in Todd Solondz’s “Happiness” – rape is loving someone who doesn’t love you back (or something like that)….one of the creepiest lines of a creepy movie

  205. david erlewine

      I scrolled through but don’t see any references to Atwood’s “Rape Fantasies” – that definitely took the idea of such things and turned it on its head. I thought about that story reading Brandi’s, and certainly thought about it reading some comments here.

  206. david erlewine

      I scrolled through but don’t see any references to Atwood’s “Rape Fantasies” – that definitely took the idea of such things and turned it on its head. I thought about that story reading Brandi’s, and certainly thought about it reading some comments here.

  207. david erlewine

      Gena, I love your response and agree with almost all of it. However, I would challenge the “almost exclusively” part. Many many men are raped every day by other men, some by women, etc. Imagine the number of men being raped right now in their prison/jail cells. Outside the prison environment, I agree that rape is mainly from man to woman, but the “almost exclusively” goes a hair too far to me.

      I myself have been concerned about such things since watching, at a young age, Richard Crenna learn first hand about rape in the wondrously titled “The Rape of Richard Beck.”

  208. david erlewine

      Gena, I love your response and agree with almost all of it. However, I would challenge the “almost exclusively” part. Many many men are raped every day by other men, some by women, etc. Imagine the number of men being raped right now in their prison/jail cells. Outside the prison environment, I agree that rape is mainly from man to woman, but the “almost exclusively” goes a hair too far to me.

      I myself have been concerned about such things since watching, at a young age, Richard Crenna learn first hand about rape in the wondrously titled “The Rape of Richard Beck.”

  209. david erlewine

      we live in a society where judges have ruled for defendants accused of rape because the female victim asked the defendant to wear a condom before raping her.

      and yeah didn’t coach knight something like “rape is like the weather…if you can’t control it at least sit back and enjoy it.”

  210. david erlewine

      we live in a society where judges have ruled for defendants accused of rape because the female victim asked the defendant to wear a condom before raping her.

      and yeah didn’t coach knight something like “rape is like the weather…if you can’t control it at least sit back and enjoy it.”

  211. david erlewine

      that scene was HORRIFYING TO ME on so many levels, many of which are unique to me. Some guy I knew saw it opening night and told me that he liked the movie a lot but hated watching Bruce Willis get raped. So, when I saw the movie later that night, I was DYING as Bruce was approaching with the sword, sure I was going to have to stomach watching Marcellus and then Willis get obliterated.

  212. david erlewine

      that scene was HORRIFYING TO ME on so many levels, many of which are unique to me. Some guy I knew saw it opening night and told me that he liked the movie a lot but hated watching Bruce Willis get raped. So, when I saw the movie later that night, I was DYING as Bruce was approaching with the sword, sure I was going to have to stomach watching Marcellus and then Willis get obliterated.

  213. david erlewine

      I read it this way too, Angi. The Facebook line sealed it for me.

  214. david erlewine

      I read it this way too, Angi. The Facebook line sealed it for me.

  215. Sabra

      Thanks, David. That is damn creepy. Creepy not nasty. Cream in my coffee.

  216. Sabra

      Thanks, David. That is damn creepy. Creepy not nasty. Cream in my coffee.

  217. gena

      david,
      i understand what you’re saying about my “almost exclusively” comment. i did take same-sex rape into account when i made that comment, but i still believe that when rape is mentioned, people tend to think of it being between a man and a woman. or maybe they don’t–i can’t speak for them. i was just trying to figure out why there’s so much gender division (like above) when rape is discussed. you know, the whole “you’re a man so you view it from a clinical perspective” vs. “you’re a woman so you view it from and emotional perspective” or whatever other arguments there are.

      i don’t know. it’s difficult to make accurate statements about these types of things because there are just so many exceptions.

  218. gena

      david,
      i understand what you’re saying about my “almost exclusively” comment. i did take same-sex rape into account when i made that comment, but i still believe that when rape is mentioned, people tend to think of it being between a man and a woman. or maybe they don’t–i can’t speak for them. i was just trying to figure out why there’s so much gender division (like above) when rape is discussed. you know, the whole “you’re a man so you view it from a clinical perspective” vs. “you’re a woman so you view it from and emotional perspective” or whatever other arguments there are.

      i don’t know. it’s difficult to make accurate statements about these types of things because there are just so many exceptions.

  219. jereme

      tarantino wanted to mimic the rape scene in “american me” which is why it’s in the movie from what i read years back.

      i think the scene in “american me” still holds more power. plus the Mexican Mafia did try to kill every one on the cast because of all the rape scenes.

      that’s powerful shit man.

  220. jereme

      tarantino wanted to mimic the rape scene in “american me” which is why it’s in the movie from what i read years back.

      i think the scene in “american me” still holds more power. plus the Mexican Mafia did try to kill every one on the cast because of all the rape scenes.

      that’s powerful shit man.

  221. Angi

      Jereme, I didn’t read it that the narrator *wants* to feel small. I read it as the narrator mocking the man’s behavior and motivations. To me, it’s like imagining someone in an argument saying “oh, yeah, remind me how stupid (or any insult) I am.” The person isn’t *asking* to be called stupid because they desire it, they’re mocking the predictable tactics of the other person. Just like when Brandi’s narrator is saying “it’s better if you make me yell,” I don’t interpret that as saying it’s better for her, but rather a statement of “I know how you are, this is what you get off on,” as an insult.

      We very well might *both* be wrong in our interpretations, but I’m just offering a reading from the psychological perspective in which the narrator’s “instructions” do not equal desires.

  222. Angi

      Jereme, I didn’t read it that the narrator *wants* to feel small. I read it as the narrator mocking the man’s behavior and motivations. To me, it’s like imagining someone in an argument saying “oh, yeah, remind me how stupid (or any insult) I am.” The person isn’t *asking* to be called stupid because they desire it, they’re mocking the predictable tactics of the other person. Just like when Brandi’s narrator is saying “it’s better if you make me yell,” I don’t interpret that as saying it’s better for her, but rather a statement of “I know how you are, this is what you get off on,” as an insult.

      We very well might *both* be wrong in our interpretations, but I’m just offering a reading from the psychological perspective in which the narrator’s “instructions” do not equal desires.

  223. Ryan Call

      jereme and gena,yeah that is good/interesting. that clarifies what i was curious about regarding impulse/action. sorry i didnt respond til now.

  224. Ryan Call

      jereme and gena,yeah that is good/interesting. that clarifies what i was curious about regarding impulse/action. sorry i didnt respond til now.