WHAT IS THE MEANING OF SELLING-OUT

March 18th, 2009 / 10:18 pm darby—

altering either your style or content in a manner that contradicts your natural artistic progression for the sake of popularity

March 18th, 2009 / 6:18 pm darby—

altering either your style or content in a manner that contradicts your natural artistic progression for the sake of popularity

March 18th, 2009 / 10:43 pm Jimmy Chen—

“having a commute under 3 hours”

March 18th, 2009 / 10:48 pm mariana—

It is a garage sale of the stories, paragraphs and phraes you have left unwritten.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:01 pm keith n b—

dental insurance

March 18th, 2009 / 11:06 pm Gian—

Publishing.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:08 pm R. Gay—

I think the idea that one can sell out is absurd. I’ll never understand why, in certain quarters, success is uncool.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:23 pm ben—

selling out is when you have no more copies left of your book.

selling out is when, in order to make more money, you lend your image/talent/work to publication/business that you don’t respect. it’s the decision that money is more important than values.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:25 pm Ken Baumann—

Yep.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:28 pm Ken Baumann—

And that video is great.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:29 pm Nathan (Nate) Tyree—

agreed. Changing what you write or how your write because you think it it make you more money. That’s selling out.

March 18th, 2009 / 7:29 pm Nathan (Nate) Tyree—

agreed. Changing what you write or how your write because you think it it make you more money. That’s selling out.

March 18th, 2009 / 11:38 pm Justin Taylor—

That interview is the best song Henry Rollins ever recorded. Kudos, Pink!

March 18th, 2009 / 11:56 pm socrates—

Selling out:

Selling out is fine. I think everyone who sells out is my hero. I think you should sell out. I think that I want to sell out because I would get loads of money and buy everything I ever wanted.

Selling out is linking to your blog. Selling out is writing comments on other blogs. Selling out is communicating with anyone. Selling out is asking your parents for money. Selling out is not being quiet. Selling out is making a joke.

March 19th, 2009 / 12:16 am barry—

there’s no such thing as selling out. we all have to look at ourselves in the mirror every morning.

while i understand the argument, i also understand poverty. i dont want my children growing up and devoting their time and energy and brilliance on how to eat their next meal, how to get a job and get to work. anyone who says, no you gotta teach your kids what it means to struggle and how to keep it real, and all that bullshit, just seems naive. i want me children to trabel the world and accomplish anything they can imagine, and attend schools with the best programs, and spend their talents and passion and mind on winning a pulitzer or a nobel prize or ending homelessness or curing cancer.

anyone who thinks identity and not wanting to be a sellout, is more important than that needs to reevaluate their priorities.

im not saying its not ok to be genuine and have morals, values, and beliefs, and understandng the importance of hardwork and the beauty of ideals. im just saying if you let image of self through other peoples eyes effect your ability to provide a better life for your family, maybe you should reevaluate your priorities.

March 19th, 2009 / 12:27 am sam pink—

well said barry

March 18th, 2009 / 8:27 pm sam pink—

well said barry

March 19th, 2009 / 12:32 am barry—

thank you mr. pink. you are my inspiration.

can’t wait til you get to ann arbor. sam pink roaming the streets of the university of michigan campus. ahhhhhhh good times are coming.

March 19th, 2009 / 12:35 am Peter Markus—

That interview is punk. That kid is not punk. Anyone who saw Black Flag in the early 80s knows that Rollins was the real deal. I can’t speak about his life post-1985 or so, but some of the shows I saw when I was in my teens blew me away. And when I saw him later in the mid-80s solo I still believed that he was living what he was singing. If you’ve ever seen Black Flag live (at least the handful of times I did) you’d never question Rollins’s authenticity.

March 19th, 2009 / 1:25 am jereme—

god i hope to one day sell out if that is the meaning.

my 3 hour one way commute is leathering my balls into pork rinds.

god i hate southern california.

March 19th, 2009 / 1:32 am jereme—

i agree with you barry, however, how is this in relation to the question?

sam asked in context to writing? has any one made it to a point where ‘selling out’ to better family has occurred?

i mean isn’t the question directed towards ‘writing’? not monetary revenue per se?

March 18th, 2009 / 9:32 pm jereme—

i agree with you barry, however, how is this in relation to the question?

sam asked in context to writing? has any one made it to a point where ‘selling out’ to better family has occurred?

i mean isn’t the question directed towards ‘writing’? not monetary revenue per se?

March 19th, 2009 / 1:36 am jereme—

why is every one focusing solely on money as a means of selling out?

March 19th, 2009 / 1:39 am darby—

oh, you didn’t actually want a definition, just opinions. sorry.

My opinion is that actual sell-outing doesn’t happen very much, if ever, and is almost always an inaccurate accusation.

March 19th, 2009 / 1:45 am sam pink—

rollins solidified his authenticity when he signed the meat puppets when punks were spitting on them at shows. i read “get in the van” it was cool.

March 19th, 2009 / 1:46 am barry—

sherman alexie…

thats not a knock. i heard it from his own mouth.

March 19th, 2009 / 1:54 am barry—

haha. that kid aint punk but i dont think he pretended to be. you gotta give him a little credit, he does have some balls. he stood there and called the man a sellout, without once shying away, when he coulda easily got knocked the fuck out.

March 19th, 2009 / 1:55 am barry—

does anyone ever give answers in relation to the original questions?

March 19th, 2009 / 1:56 am sam pink—

yeah i thought the kid should’ve at least taken a shot at him. at least he’d get physically knocked out and that’d be it.

March 19th, 2009 / 2:01 am jereme—

barry,

hahaha to the below. no i don’t think so.

March 18th, 2009 / 10:01 pm jereme—

barry,

hahaha to the below. no i don’t think so.

March 19th, 2009 / 2:19 am gena—

vaginas

March 19th, 2009 / 2:30 am pr—

I am always so happy for anyone I know who manages to garner any success as a writer. I admire it. I wish the best for everyoe I know and as LIz Phair sang in “shitloads of money” that means shitloads of money. That said, in her effort to make tons of cash, she lost something. And I don’t hate her for it. But it is a sadness for me, that she hired professional writers to write her songs, and it didn’t help her career. I don’t think she’s a bad person. I think she lost sight of something and, in her case, it didn’t help her career.

I guess I am saying I agree with Barry.

In my small experience, most people who claim they don’t care about money, actually have it. So why care? I think Tony O’Neill has addresssed this issue better than anyone of late.

Remember when Rollins signed with Imago? ( A division of Virgin? Island? I can’t remember). I was in my twenties at the time. I remember thinking he was a “sellout”. That was because I was dumb.

March 19th, 2009 / 2:36 am sam pink—

the ninja turtles sold out when they got help from casey jones.

March 19th, 2009 / 2:45 am jereme—

am i the only person who thought krang was fucking nuts as a cartoon character?

when destro changed his head from silver to gold

March 19th, 2009 / 3:17 am sam pink—

krang was a bitch yo. until he got into that big suit .

March 19th, 2009 / 3:31 am jereme—

HAHAHAHA but seriously guys this place sucks now

March 19th, 2009 / 3:41 am pr—

Hey we don’t suck. Jereme–wana hear some dumbass sht on Rollins?

March 19th, 2009 / 3:51 am Blake Butler—

the burp at the end wins.

i was also surprised to hear the use of the term ‘bro’ during this time period. i had no idea

March 19th, 2009 / 4:00 am Lincoln—

Can we talk about how fucking great black flag were?

March 19th, 2009 / 12:00 am Lincoln—

Can we talk about how fucking great black flag were?

March 19th, 2009 / 4:04 am pr—

What I love about this was the verb “were”. What does it mean to grow up? I still respect him. But “grow up” and “great they were”? That is a discussion.

March 19th, 2009 / 4:05 am pr—

I love you Jereme.

March 19th, 2009 / 4:09 am Lincoln—

Cause they are not around anymore? Verbs confuse me. Black flag still rules!

March 19th, 2009 / 4:13 am jereme—

i did not say any individual here sucks. in case that was misconstrued.

yes of course i do. i <3 rollins

March 19th, 2009 / 4:14 am jereme—

i love you too pr

March 19th, 2009 / 4:15 am sam pink—

bad brains are way better

March 19th, 2009 / 4:17 am Lincoln—

I definitly disagree with the “there is no such thing as selling out” crowd. Selling out doesn’t mean making money. But if you abandon the very values that were supposed to define you just to make money…

If you are some anarcho punk band singing about killing bankers one day then the next you are selling coke on TV, who is that not selling out?

Not sure how that applies to writing though.

March 19th, 2009 / 4:18 am Lincoln—

bad brains, black flag, dead kennedys…. holy triumvirate of 80s hardcore punk. Impossible to choose between them.

March 19th, 2009 / 4:24 am Blake Butler—

i’ll take DKs all day

March 19th, 2009 / 4:27 am Lincoln—

definitly the most consistent of the three

March 19th, 2009 / 4:36 am pr—

I LOVE YOU.

March 19th, 2009 / 4:50 am sam pink—

i also like the band THE BIRTHDAY PARTY

March 19th, 2009 / 4:56 am jereme—

KIDS OF WHITNEY HIGH

and

MANIC HISPANIC

all day long

no joke

March 19th, 2009 / 12:56 am jereme—

KIDS OF WHITNEY HIGH

and

MANIC HISPANIC

all day long

no joke

March 19th, 2009 / 4:57 am Blake Butler—

that’s widney high, son. and that’s real talk. ‘throw away throw away throw away the trash’

March 19th, 2009 / 5:01 am sam pink—

HARRY PUSSY
FLIPPER
ADOLESCENTS

March 19th, 2009 / 5:01 am sam pink—

the first MEAT PUPPETS album is also really fucking hardcore

March 19th, 2009 / 1:01 am sam pink—

also FANG

March 19th, 2009 / 5:02 am sam pink—

EXPLOITED

March 19th, 2009 / 5:02 am Blake Butler—

will there ever be another punk band

March 19th, 2009 / 1:02 am sam pink—

BLOOD BROTHERS

March 19th, 2009 / 5:03 am sam pink—

WOLF EYES is new punk to me

March 19th, 2009 / 5:06 am Blake Butler—

they’ve been around a long time tho. but i agree

March 19th, 2009 / 5:40 am daniel bailey—

there was that time that i sucked shane jone’s dick in exchange for publishing me. that was kinda like selling out, but not really because no money was involved.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:23 am Peter Markus—

When The Meat Puppets showed up on the scene with hair down to the shoulders and wearing overalls and plaid shirts circa 1983-84 and played Zeppelin covers…that for me was pretty punk.

How about writers who are punk? And no, I don’t think Rollins is very punk when it comes to what he’s done on the page. Doing nothing new there.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:46 am james yeh—

yes, what is the punk rock of literature?

i feel like celine is kind of punk. can french be punk? he’s kind of punk. bukowski: also kind of punk. old, but still kind of punk. a writer who would rearrange your shirt collar while you were interviewing him while also getting in your face because you’re being a little shit. kind of punk.

not sure if there are any writers who are punk punk, though. i feel like a writer would more likely rearrange his own shirt collar while being interviewed, that is, if he even allows himself to be interviewed in the first place. commenting on online lit blogs after 2am. kind of punk. posting multiple times in a thread: also kind of punk.

my favorite anecdote ab rollins and black flag:

In a 1994 interview with Option magazine, Steve Malkmus recalled his pre-Pavement band Straw Dog opening for Black Flag in Stockton, California. “I was backstage before the show and all those guys, they looked so scary, I was afraid of them,” Malkmus told writer Jason Fine. “Like, Greg Ginn was mixing up this stuff in a glass. It was probably just protein powder or some healthy drink, but I thought it was heroin or something.” Observing Henry Rollins squeezing a cue ball to pump himself up, Malkmus compared the Sisyphean ritual to smashing your head against a brick wall. “That’s what I thought punk was, you know. That’s when I knew that maybe I’m just not punk enough.”

March 19th, 2009 / 11:08 am David Erlewine—

That interview sounds great, James.

March 19th, 2009 / 11:18 am David Erlewine—

I’m with Nate – Changing what you write or how your write because you think it it make you more money. In my situation selling out would be writing a Grisham/Turow type novel solely b/c I’m a lawyer. Other lawyers who know I write a few stories think I am insane/stupid/retahhded not to pursue this. I’m a lawyer to get paid and support my family. I don’t want to spend one more minute writing about courtrooms than I have to.

March 19th, 2009 / 12:47 pm Shane Jones—

how gay.

March 19th, 2009 / 12:49 pm Justin Taylor—

I think Peter Markus is writing-punk.

March 19th, 2009 / 2:37 pm L—

pavement are such wusses

March 19th, 2009 / 3:05 pm jereme—

well i think we need to define ‘punk’.

there are a few interpretations of it.

March 19th, 2009 / 3:15 pm Blake Butler—

gary lutz is punk
david markson

March 19th, 2009 / 11:15 am Blake Butler—

gary lutz is punk
david markson

March 19th, 2009 / 3:19 pm Blake Butler—

dennis cooper
ken sparling

March 19th, 2009 / 4:06 pm pr—

kathy acker

french cannot be punk

March 19th, 2009 / 4:10 pm Matthew Simmons—

Bill Stevenson looks like Lee Klein.

March 19th, 2009 / 4:26 pm Blake Butler—

THREE SIX MAFIA

March 19th, 2009 / 5:27 pm Lincoln—

Punk writer = Barry Hannah

March 19th, 2009 / 5:48 pm james yeh—

jereme, definitions could help, but also just going on the feeling of the word, i think, works, at least for the purposes of a internet thread.

i don’t know cooper’s work too much. i think lutz is “kind of punk”, like the writers i mentioned, because of his style and subversive subject matter. but i feel like punk is so much about action and lutz would be more of the opposite, at least inactive as far as the actual characters are concerned (not the author, who is most certainly active). ben marcus would be punk in a similar way maybe. sam lipsyte is punk in probably both ways.

lish is fucking punk.

funny you should bring up hannah, lincoln.

malkmus on hannah in the believer a few yrs back:

“BLVR: I think I read in an article once that your writing style was influenced early on by Barry Hannah.

SM: Well, yeah, he has a certain comic style that I really remember being transfixed by. I haven’t read him in a really long time, but I’m still a total fan. I think David [Berman, cofounder, with Malkmus, of the band the Silver Jews] first met Barry down in Mississippi. Barry heard some of David’s work and said he liked it. I think he likes to think of himself as a rock guy: He wears a leather jacket and rides a motorcycle, and in his first novel the main character tries to have a marching band, and the marching band is an African-American marching band, and the book is all about the beauty or the weirdness of this music. I should stop—I guess I’m kind of making fun of him—but he definitely has a rock and roll thing, and I think we sent him the first Silver Jews CD in appreciation of his writing. We were both really drawn to his characters:You know, the drunken outlaws. You can always relate to them as a young man. Or at least I could. “

March 19th, 2009 / 1:48 pm james yeh—

jereme, definitions could help, but also just going on the feeling of the word, i think, works, at least for the purposes of a internet thread.

i don’t know cooper’s work too much. i think lutz is “kind of punk”, like the writers i mentioned, because of his style and subversive subject matter. but i feel like punk is so much about action and lutz would be more of the opposite, at least inactive as far as the actual characters are concerned (not the author, who is most certainly active). ben marcus would be punk in a similar way maybe. sam lipsyte is punk in probably both ways.

lish is fucking punk.

funny you should bring up hannah, lincoln.

malkmus on hannah in the believer a few yrs back:

“BLVR: I think I read in an article once that your writing style was influenced early on by Barry Hannah.

SM: Well, yeah, he has a certain comic style that I really remember being transfixed by. I haven’t read him in a really long time, but I’m still a total fan. I think David [Berman, cofounder, with Malkmus, of the band the Silver Jews] first met Barry down in Mississippi. Barry heard some of David’s work and said he liked it. I think he likes to think of himself as a rock guy: He wears a leather jacket and rides a motorcycle, and in his first novel the main character tries to have a marching band, and the marching band is an African-American marching band, and the book is all about the beauty or the weirdness of this music. I should stop—I guess I’m kind of making fun of him—but he definitely has a rock and roll thing, and I think we sent him the first Silver Jews CD in appreciation of his writing. We were both really drawn to his characters:You know, the drunken outlaws. You can always relate to them as a young man. Or at least I could. “

March 19th, 2009 / 5:52 pm james yeh—

yeah i figured as much

still celine’s pretty fucking punk, imo. journey to the end of the night is like a fuck you to literature and just about everything else, in the good way.

March 19th, 2009 / 5:53 pm james yeh—

totally! this was before pavement though, so malk was probably like 15 or something.

March 19th, 2009 / 5:54 pm james yeh—

grisham=not punk

March 19th, 2009 / 2:02 pm Blake Butler—

i think punk is more a mindset than a physicality:
doing what you want regardless of context

hence why talking heads are the most punk band ever

March 19th, 2009 / 6:07 pm jereme—

eh the whole band?

what about them doing that lame ‘no talking, just heads’ band sans byrne.

byrne is punk fo sho

March 19th, 2009 / 6:12 pm Nathan (Nate) Tyree—

money isn’t the means, it’s the reason.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:15 pm Blake Butler—

byrne is talking heads
those other guys and gal were just watching

March 19th, 2009 / 2:15 pm Blake Butler—

byrne is talking heads
those other guys and gal were just watching

March 19th, 2009 / 6:17 pm Blake Butler—

lutz exists completely in his own world, that is punk to me

i’m iffy on the wenderoth

March 19th, 2009 / 6:18 pm james yeh—

letters to wendys is punk

March 19th, 2009 / 6:19 pm Blake Butler—

that i can afford

March 19th, 2009 / 2:19 pm Blake Butler—

that i can afford

March 19th, 2009 / 6:35 pm pr—

i saw pavement at cbgbs and they were not punk, but they did rock. malkmus didn’t know what he had with that band- hence, he went solo and did become not very good.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:36 pm pr—

didn’t finish it. it is very fuck youey, what i remember.

March 19th, 2009 / 2:36 pm pr—

didn’t finish it. it is very fuck youey, what i remember.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:38 pm pr—

i did blow with chris frantz when i was fifteen

March 19th, 2009 / 6:39 pm L—

Also Malkimus is maybe the least punk person alive. Who would trust his advice on rock music?

Barry Hannah > Dave Berman > Black Flag > Silver Jews > Gary Lutz > Minor Threat > J.K Rowlings > Twilight > Pavement

March 19th, 2009 / 6:40 pm mike—

i don’t understand any of this discussion or why “punk” is important or useful, but barry hannah is an amazing writer and maybe his books should be read instead of interviews with stephen “hi, i’m a polo shirt” malkmus that mention barry hannah?

sorry if that comes off as bitchy, but i think this whole discussion–whenever it happens and happens–comes off as witheringly lame and juvenile and reminds me of fifteen year old boys arguing and sitting around drinking barely spiked kool-aid while their sister does something amazing with the piano

i know that’s an annoying rhetorical move to make (“what do i think of the argument? blow up the argument!”) but if it’s getting to the point where we’re quoting fucking stephen malkmus as some authority on barry hannah, and an authority to suggest that hannah’s some kind of poseur no less? that just makes me want to brick faces.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:41 pm L—

Yeah I’m not sure Malkemus is an authority on anything except not being punk and how to be in a band with a much more talented musician but trick the hipsters into thinking your are cooler.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:47 pm Blake Butler—

when when he read at bennington, it turned into a scene quick, what with his colloquial racism in the piece he read. his grin could not have been more huge.

March 19th, 2009 / 6:48 pm Blake Butler—

wowee zowee was definitely punk

March 19th, 2009 / 6:58 pm mike young—

grace paley is so punk this whole thread can go home

ada lovelace is so punk this whole thread can go

marina tsvetaeva is so punk this whole thread can

tillie olsen is so punk this whole thread

mina loy is so punk this whole

baronesse elsa von freytag-loringhoven is so punk this

h.d. is so punk

fran ross is so

gertrude stein is

March 19th, 2009 / 7:09 pm jereme—

you shouldn’t apologize when you do not mean it. it makes you look weak.

anyways, the conversation of ‘punk’ would not be relevant, if, you, as an artist, create solely based on popular opinion.

so if you aren’t writing for yourself then just let the little boys play and giggle in your head.

you’ve already won.

victory is forever.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:14 pm mike young—

weakness is punk

so you’re either writing for yourself or you’re writing for “popular opinion”? those are the two choices?

sweet. cool man. rock on. high five. punk as fuck.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:19 pm jereme—

you are so rad pr.

March 19th, 2009 / 3:19 pm jereme—

you are so rad pr.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:23 pm jereme—

mike,

“so you’re either writing for yourself or you’re writing for “popular opinion”? those are the two choices?”

feel free to define what doesn’t fall into one of these two buckets.

i am open-minded. persuade me.

“sweet. cool man. rock on. high five. punk as fuck.”

that is funny. i actually wrote ‘high five’ in my original response to you but thought ‘that sounds too dick headish’ and deleted it.

low five if your blouse will allow you to reach.

March 19th, 2009 / 3:23 pm jereme—

mike,

“so you’re either writing for yourself or you’re writing for “popular opinion”? those are the two choices?”

feel free to define what doesn’t fall into one of these two buckets.

i am open-minded. persuade me.

“sweet. cool man. rock on. high five. punk as fuck.”

that is funny. i actually wrote ‘high five’ in my original response to you but thought ‘that sounds too dick headish’ and deleted it.

low five if your blouse will allow you to reach.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:27 pm jereme—

barry graham speaks the truth

March 19th, 2009 / 7:29 pm marigold—

reel big fish has a song about this.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:33 pm barry—

letters to wendys is good shit. genius. but thats just my opinion.

i met joe wenderoth a few times. during a Q and A my niece stood up and asked him if he actually sent the letters to wendys. he blew her off and said why does it matter and she said, very loudly, because i dont think you have the fucking balls. then he says, it doesnt take balls, all the postage is paid.

it was a good moment.

he can sing quite weel. in themiddle of the reading he started singing some garth brooks tune without the beat, his voice got soul. i honestly think if he wasnt a teacher and writer he could have been a country music singer. he talked about it and if you ever hear him say it, he’s not full of shit.

other wise was very drunk and obnoxious and smug. almost how i picture a middle aged merle haggard or waylon jennings. redneckism is in his bood.

his ashcroft collection sucked ass.

March 19th, 2009 / 7:36 pm mike young—

well, i think the big sweeping generalization would be, if one needs to be made: “writing for yourself or writing for others”

where “writing for ‘popular opinion'” would be a sub-camp of “writing for others”

kurt vonnegut said something one time about crafting his prose style by imagining he was writing a letter to his sister

that was a kind of “writing for others” that wasn’t the same thing as “writing for popular opinion”

there are lots of ways to write for others

that are earnest

i can’t five anything! i am a centipede!

March 19th, 2009 / 7:48 pm jereme—

uhg now you are bickering over if it is roast pork or pork roast.

but okay your definition is more succinct.

i am glad for kurt. he was not writing for his sister though.

so that goes out the window.

he chose a means of personal expression.

blank butler scream reading drunk on the L train was punk.

asking 30 people if the ‘reading was good? how was the reading? did i do a good job doing this?’ is not fucking punk mike.

never mind.

who cares.

you don’t get it.

March 19th, 2009 / 8:06 pm mike young—

okay, if we’re talking about why someone does something in the first place, i can see where you’re making a distinction between 1) someone who does something because they have to, because they want to say “hey, listen, i have to tell you something” versus 2) someone who does something just for kudos or reciprocation of some kind

i guess i think of “writing for yourself” as not being interested in listeners at all

what i mean by “writing for others” is the idea that no matter how personal your expression is, you want people to listen

i think, honestly, we’re thinking of two different meanings of the word “for.” like i’m thinking of “for” meaning “addressed to,” and you’re thinking of for like “on behalf of” or “because of”

we need two kinds of “for” like spanish has, then we probably wouldn’t have even had this argument

as for the other stuff, here’s more succinctness for you: you like blake. you don’t like me. to which, again: sweet, cool, high five.

March 19th, 2009 / 8:11 pm mike young—

as for this being relevant to “punk”

i think of the word “earnest” as something more valuable more than “punk”

“punk” has this weird connotation of show-offy, self-protective bad-assery that is absolutely totally concerned with image and coming across to the world a certain way and nothing to do with personal expression

and all that self-protective, cowardly faux bad-assery is usually what leads to silly “that’s punk as fuck / that’s so not punk” discussions, nothing to do with expression at all

March 19th, 2009 / 8:17 pm Blake Butler—

i think you are using the ‘nofx’ ‘sex pistols’ version of punk, which i think has always been the incorrect notion.

true punk, i think, is wholly earnest

though i also agree: defining the word ‘punk’ is not very punk at all

March 19th, 2009 / 8:23 pm sam pink—

il mio nonno giovanni e molto “punk” perche lui non cambiare il suo vida

March 19th, 2009 / 8:48 pm jereme—

mike,

“as for the other stuff, here’s more succinctness for you: you like blake. you don’t like me. to which, again: sweet, cool, high five.”

wow, do you really think i am picking on you and not blake because of my ‘liking’?

speaking of 5th grade. holy shit.

let me elucidate shit for ya mike.

no, i am not fond of you. i dislike you. i do not hate you like i hate oh say ryan manning. you are not on that list.

i will reiterate: I DON’T FUCKING LIKE YOU

i think i was more than cordial to you in person. maybe not. who knows.

so i have been reading htmlgiant lately and i keep thinking ‘fuck this place used to be beautiful’.

the posts leading to sam’s were predominately a.) jimmy chen reviewing book pics (a good idea jimmy just not 22 times a day and it was better when you weren’t holding back) b.)justin taylor scam articles (?) and mike young “i am going to say something cute-arrogant and tell you to read these zines”.

there was no balance. same trite shit.

pr is out of town in the dr. she isn’t posting.

sam finally (thank my man tits) puts up an interesting post.

discussion ensues. it is of very light hearte people are having fun.

but then here comes young mike young with his 5 alarm smarm complete with dick spewing this and that on all of us. how lame we are for *gasp* talking about such a childish subject.

the past 5 times you came spit spraying recycled douche water i kept my mouth shut. there was balance on the site. no big deal. balance is good.

i have no reason to pipe up.

this time is not the last 5 times.

the sad thing mike is i am the only one who is saying ‘fuck you’ in response to your sweeping put down of every one in this comment thread.

why don’t you go buy a new mirror and preen some more. let us little kids blib blab.

i will admit i do like when your squeak squawk hits. confrontation really is my favorite drug.

i haven’t had this much fun in a long time.

back to my example

blake drunk as a skunk gave a reading in front of peers. blake is very political. he wants a career. probably not the best thing to do.

you running around with mousy voice asking people ‘did i put on a good reading?’ and smiling at your fucking great accomplishment isn’t punk in any definition.

it’s weak and arrogant.

sam pink disappearing for no apparent reason every 15 minutes was punk.

like i said you don’t get it.

how about i just pat you on the head and save a high five for one of your writing buddies?

i think that’s best.

March 19th, 2009 / 9:29 pm Blake Butler—

god, seriously. can this be moved to myspace or something? it’s really tired.

jereme, if the site is so ‘trite’ to you now, i encourage you to, um, stop looking? i imagine it must be tiring to comment at least 5-10 times per thread on such an ‘old hat’ website

seriously, relax dude. your vehemence is totally misplaced.

that’s straight from the heart.

March 19th, 2009 / 9:34 pm darby—

I like mike and I’ve never met him. I like everyone I’ve never met. That’s my new mantra. I love. No. I like everyone I’ve never met and I want to buy people beers and puppies. I like you jereme. You are like an antithesis of me and something that’s preferable for the world. I’ve never met you or anyone. I’ve only met a few people and they are exhausted.

March 19th, 2009 / 9:42 pm jereme—

i don’t really use myspace anymore. we can do it via email or something.

the site is not trite. it is becoming so. if you notice i post 5-10 times only on specific threads.

those specific threads are becoming fewer and fewer.

nothing is displaced. this is directed solely towards mike for shitting on people.

if you believe i am the only person who thinks htmlgiant is losing ‘fun’ value, i don’t know.

that would be sad if you thought that.

anyways, you don’t want me here. just ask blake. that’s all you have to do.

say the simple words ‘don’t come here any more’

you don’t even have to say please.

March 19th, 2009 / 5:42 pm jereme—

i don’t really use myspace anymore. we can do it via email or something.

the site is not trite. it is becoming so. if you notice i post 5-10 times only on specific threads.

those specific threads are becoming fewer and fewer.

nothing is displaced. this is directed solely towards mike for shitting on people.

if you believe i am the only person who thinks htmlgiant is losing ‘fun’ value, i don’t know.

that would be sad if you thought that.

anyways, you don’t want me here. just ask blake. that’s all you have to do.

say the simple words ‘don’t come here any more’

you don’t even have to say please.

March 19th, 2009 / 9:45 pm L—

So guys…. Rollins, Keith or Dez?

March 19th, 2009 / 10:11 pm young mike young with his 5 al—

whoa, is this what living in L.A. does to a poor guy?

jereme, it’s fine that we don’t like each other. it’s kind of entertaining, especially this comment of yours, which is the longest comment i’ve seen you make, and probably my favorite actual writing of yours i’ve ever read. it includes a lot of funny things like “squeak squak” and “spit spraying recycled douche water” and “justin taylor scam articles (?)” with the question mark, which is really funny.

i mean, it’s kind of weird to me that “tearing somebody a new one” is what it takes for you to zonk out your funniest material, but i think it doesn’t seem weird to you at all, which speaks to why we don’t like each other. other stuff probably seems weird to you? like it doesn’t bother me being called weak or “un-punk” or whatever. i’m pretty easygoing and don’t see what the big deal is about being “strong” and “taking a stand” and i like to make fun of all that stuff, which probably seems weird and annoying to you.

i feel like if we liked each other, or we secretly liked each other and this was all an act or something, then my goofy-ass grins wouldn’t mean as much and your righteous fury wouldn’t mean as much. so here’s to our mutual enabling.

like you say, “confrontation really is my favorite drug,” but confrontation makes me kind of tired. it’s a fair complaint that i was being a “wet blanket” or “anti-fun” about all this punk-rah-rah stuff, but i guess the barry hannah comment set me off and i had kind of a mindset that went “this is silly, this is just going to inspire people to avoid things because some bully yells that they’re not cool or punk, what a dumb shame.” that’s all. you know, another day, a different set of clouds, i would’ve been like “this is fun, townes van zandt is punk!” but i guess today the discussion as a sweeping whole (absent whatever was earnest here and there within it, of course) seemed kind of desperate and mean and not very fun at all.

anyhow, nice riff! if i weren’t already me and self-conscious as the night drones on, then i would probably read it and be like “whoa, this mike young dude sounds like dane cook or something!” so there you go. if other people rag on me in the future without including the phrase “five alarm smarm,” i’m gonna feel a little impatient and let down.

March 19th, 2009 / 10:17 pm bryan coffelt—

htmlgiant is like a honey bee being ganbanged by 1000 bears.

March 19th, 2009 / 10:48 pm mike young—

i like you too, darby. puppies! everyone i’ve met is exhausted too.

March 19th, 2009 / 11:26 pm james yeh—

dude, mike, i like you, but refer to jereme’s comments later on about how shitting on a conversation is lame. i’m pretty offended too.

i’ve fucking read barry hannah, don’t fucking lecture me on barry hannah. seriously. my neck got hot writing this. nowhere am i saying “barry hannah is not a great writer”. the debate is whether he’s punk or not.

i can’t believe this has gotten out of control like this. jesus. this is a joke conversation, with about roughly 45% seriousness. probably less actually. did you really actually think i was using malkmus as some sort of barometer as to barry hannah’s literary merit?? i’m talking about his “punk” merit, as a joke

christ

either way off base in my presentation or you’re taking this way too seriously. i’m not saying barry hannah isn’t an awesome writer. i love his shit. airships is badass. ray is badass. does that mean i can’t quote pavement shit-talking him a little as a fucking joke?

wtf

nowhere in this thread am i saying pavement is punk. in fact, everything i’ve said has said the opposite of such. the only reason i brought them up in the first place was bc malkmus said something funny once about black flag being so much more punk then him

all this was to provocate lincoln, jesus

March 19th, 2009 / 11:28 pm james yeh—

ha

March 19th, 2009 / 11:30 pm james yeh—

“don’t not come here any more” jereme

a little passion goes a long way

March 19th, 2009 / 11:34 pm mike young—

my apologies

i really thought you were being serious, but it did seem really weird to me, so i should’ve known something was up. i did probably take the whole conversation more seriously than it was intended, and i feel silly and embarrassed about that.

i’ll swallow the horse pill on this one, dude. sorry for the confusion. i’ll buy you a drink next time i see you

March 19th, 2009 / 11:42 pm james yeh—

no worries dude

apologies accepted

heh

i’m not very serious about anything really, which is not to say i don’t give a shit about stuff, just that i’d rather make jokes and go with it for a while

but i do like debates.

man, can’t wait to see you next

March 19th, 2009 / 11:45 pm james yeh—

hmm, just sounds like he’s a redneck to me

March 19th, 2009 / 11:46 pm james yeh—

“jk”

March 20th, 2009 / 12:02 am Lincoln—

Don’t apologize to James. He doesn’t even like punk! He probably thinks black flag was some kind of weed they used to sell at Phish tours.

March 20th, 2009 / 12:09 am james yeh—

na, that’s bad brains

also, it was string cheese tour, get it straight

wait, punk’s that thing that happens when someone goes into their garage and they think their car is going to be in there, but instead there’s like a naked man with a clown wig on or strumming an acoustic guitar, right? and then they’re like “you got punk!” we’re talking about the same punk, right?

March 20th, 2009 / 12:46 am Ryan Call—

i am drinking ice cold water

March 20th, 2009 / 1:30 am mike—

i mean “poor guy” like “dang, poor guy” not like “guy with not much money”

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF SELLING-OUT

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