December 23rd, 2009 / 3:10 pm
Snippets
Snippets
Blake Butler—
Robert Swartwood nicely calls out Narrative Magazine on twitter about their $20 submission fees and their $10K NEA grant FOR A WEBSITE [“helps (a little)”] and they, as usual, avoid giving a straight answer. Bring em coal, Santa!
I have tried to not think too hard about Narrative and their $20 submission fee but the NEA grant has put me into a tailspin of irritation from which I cannot extricate myself. It just seems so unfair. It seems like giving a grant to Microsoft.
I have tried to not think too hard about Narrative and their $20 submission fee but the NEA grant has put me into a tailspin of irritation from which I cannot extricate myself. It just seems so unfair. It seems like giving a grant to Microsoft.
how do they get to be “the leading online publisher”? there are a bunch of us that have been doing this nearly 10 goddamn years and have better traffic than the “illustrious” online mags and we don’t get a fart in the wind’s worth of acknowledgment for that.
not that i have any idea what acknowledgment i’m looking for for the online mags that have been around awhile. i just feel like ranting without a sense of purpose.
how do they get to be “the leading online publisher”? there are a bunch of us that have been doing this nearly 10 goddamn years and have better traffic than the “illustrious” online mags and we don’t get a fart in the wind’s worth of acknowledgment for that.
not that i have any idea what acknowledgment i’m looking for for the online mags that have been around awhile. i just feel like ranting without a sense of purpose.
they published t.c. boyle! that means they are the leaders. duh, jackie!
they published t.c. boyle! that means they are the leaders. duh, jackie!
If we all concentrated on taking down Narrative, could we make a dent?
If we all concentrated on taking down Narrative, could we make a dent?
Let’s all get together and change something. Narrative seems as good as anything else to topple.
Let’s all get together and change something. Narrative seems as good as anything else to topple.
how
how
Like, say mean things about them at Twitter and our blogs and stuff. Or I guess that would just promote them more.
I guess we can’t boycott them, because who reads them anyway?
Someone must have an idea.
Like, say mean things about them at Twitter and our blogs and stuff. Or I guess that would just promote them more.
I guess we can’t boycott them, because who reads them anyway?
Someone must have an idea.
squirt guns.
squirt guns.
remember when the ula used to protest everything? i miss those guys. can we train the ula into a people-eating pit bull and send them out?
yeah, it’s b/c people can point to them and say, look, online is NO different than print, we’re going to be ok.
remember when the ula used to protest everything? i miss those guys. can we train the ula into a people-eating pit bull and send them out?
yeah, it’s b/c people can point to them and say, look, online is NO different than print, we’re going to be ok.
Man, he handed them their asses in a skillet.
Man, he handed them their asses in a skillet.
I subscribe to their e-mail mailing list and I get angry every time I see them pop up in my inbox…but I enjoy the rage so I don’t unsubscribe. Man I hate those guys.
I subscribe to their e-mail mailing list and I get angry every time I see them pop up in my inbox…but I enjoy the rage so I don’t unsubscribe. Man I hate those guys.
I think something interesting could be done. I don’t understand how they sleep at night accepting an NEA grant.
I think something interesting could be done. I don’t understand how they sleep at night accepting an NEA grant.
NEA grant, hell. I don’t see how they sleep asking 20 bones for a simple submit. I don’t think I’d even pay down 20 for a contest fee unless it included a script or copy of the winning book.
NEA grant, hell. I don’t see how they sleep asking 20 bones for a simple submit. I don’t think I’d even pay down 20 for a contest fee unless it included a script or copy of the winning book.
How do the hackers do those denial of service attacks
I bet jereme dean can set that up
How do the hackers do those denial of service attacks
I bet jereme dean can set that up
jereme dean: grand central station. hack the planet.
jereme dean: grand central station. hack the planet.
ce, I think the $20 is problematic but I also think that if you choose to pay that fee, that’s certainly your right. Now, the real dilemma is that most of the people who are paying that fee will never ever ever get their work into Narrative and the editors at Narrative both know and are counting on that. That’s a bit.. predatory and it makes me uncomfortable. I also think that for $20, you should get more than just someone reading your work. A timely response and/or a personal response would be nice but such is rarely the case. See? I’m riling myself up. This is why I try not to think about it too hard.
ce, I think the $20 is problematic but I also think that if you choose to pay that fee, that’s certainly your right. Now, the real dilemma is that most of the people who are paying that fee will never ever ever get their work into Narrative and the editors at Narrative both know and are counting on that. That’s a bit.. predatory and it makes me uncomfortable. I also think that for $20, you should get more than just someone reading your work. A timely response and/or a personal response would be nice but such is rarely the case. See? I’m riling myself up. This is why I try not to think about it too hard.
Yeah. That’s what I was meaning by “simple submit,” but I probably could have been more clear. If I was a British detective, I’d be slinging “preposterous’s” at them willy nilly.
Yeah. That’s what I was meaning by “simple submit,” but I probably could have been more clear. If I was a British detective, I’d be slinging “preposterous’s” at them willy nilly.
Are you fucks deleting my messages?
You will never appear in Narrative.
Are you fucks deleting my messages?
You will never appear in Narrative.
Ha, this cracks me up. I am going to see to it that you receive messages in triplicate.
I’m having Toby over for brunch tomorrow. We will laugh and laugh.
Here’s the thing about the microsoft comparison, though (and I know we’ve been over this again and again, but….). I think mandatory submission fees, esp. fees as high as Narrative’s, are totally exploitative, but as non-profits go, w/ a $400,000 budget, Narrative is still smallish. It’s a large small, but still small. A group with a budget in the $300,000 – $400,000 range can totally go caput simply on account of losing one or two grants (this is why over-reliance on foundations is not a great idea). There are certain expenses you take on when you choose to institutionalize instead of being a volunteer-driven project. If you look at their 990, a lot of the expenses are normal non-profit stuff… staff salaries (Looks like Tom Jenks makes $80,000), office expenses, travel, design, editing, fundraising and copy editing contractors… (I think Ryan… I *think* it was Ryan made a big deal about their $30,000 webmaster seeming really steep a year ago). I’m not saying I think theirs is necessarily the ideal model …there’s a reason a lot of social justice activist groups, for instance, are currently questioning the limitations of the 501c3 model for organizing. …But I think we need to be clear about what we are critiquing (they’re not millionaires accumulating huge profits), and also, if we want to create sustainable, institutionalized structures to support literature, understand how difficult that really is within current systems and what the potential problems are w/ trying to do so. And also, if we choose to promote less institutionalized models, I think we need to be mindful about not romanticizing poverty and obscurity.
Ha, this cracks me up. I am going to see to it that you receive messages in triplicate.
I’m having Toby over for brunch tomorrow. We will laugh and laugh.
Here’s the thing about the microsoft comparison, though (and I know we’ve been over this again and again, but….). I think mandatory submission fees, esp. fees as high as Narrative’s, are totally exploitative, but as non-profits go, w/ a $400,000 budget, Narrative is still smallish. It’s a large small, but still small. A group with a budget in the $300,000 – $400,000 range can totally go caput simply on account of losing one or two grants (this is why over-reliance on foundations is not a great idea). There are certain expenses you take on when you choose to institutionalize instead of being a volunteer-driven project. If you look at their 990, a lot of the expenses are normal non-profit stuff… staff salaries (Looks like Tom Jenks makes $80,000), office expenses, travel, design, editing, fundraising and copy editing contractors… (I think Ryan… I *think* it was Ryan made a big deal about their $30,000 webmaster seeming really steep a year ago). I’m not saying I think theirs is necessarily the ideal model …there’s a reason a lot of social justice activist groups, for instance, are currently questioning the limitations of the 501c3 model for organizing. …But I think we need to be clear about what we are critiquing (they’re not millionaires accumulating huge profits), and also, if we want to create sustainable, institutionalized structures to support literature, understand how difficult that really is within current systems and what the potential problems are w/ trying to do so. And also, if we choose to promote less institutionalized models, I think we need to be mindful about not romanticizing poverty and obscurity.
I think their website has a poetry.com feel.
I think P.T. Barnum was right, and so I am torn. If you pay $20 to submit you have entered damn-fool territory. Then again, I once bought a $19 Sherlock Holmes figurine off Ebay.
I think I will read Swartwood’s blog for now on. Did not know it existed. Then again, I am cucumber.
I think their website has a poetry.com feel.
I think P.T. Barnum was right, and so I am torn. If you pay $20 to submit you have entered damn-fool territory. Then again, I once bought a $19 Sherlock Holmes figurine off Ebay.
I think I will read Swartwood’s blog for now on. Did not know it existed. Then again, I am cucumber.
you may get in, timmy, with a few more posts like this
you may get in, timmy, with a few more posts like this
Oh are you the guy that does Narrative? You are dumb.
Money. You deserve money.
Oh are you the guy that does Narrative? You are dumb.
Money. You deserve money.
I’m sort-of kidding and sort-of not.
I’m sort-of kidding and sort-of not.
WTF happened to my comment?
Conspiracy!!
WTF happened to my comment?
Conspiracy!!
Tried to say something about PT Barnum, how Narrative magazine’s webite looks like poetry.com to me and something about reading swartwood’s blog, not sure, time for egg not (I spike mine with Ketamine)
Tried to say something about PT Barnum, how Narrative magazine’s webite looks like poetry.com to me and something about reading swartwood’s blog, not sure, time for egg not (I spike mine with Ketamine)
I would like to see them come clean about something really specific, like what percentage of their income comes from those fees, exactly how they are spent, etc. I feel like that’s all anybody has really been asking for, and that’s when Narrative comes in w/ this really vague answer about how nonprofits need to fundraise. So fundraise for what? If practitioners of the art form you claim to be “keeping alive” are questioning your practices. Why not be up front abt your decision-making?
I would like to see them come clean about something really specific, like what percentage of their income comes from those fees, exactly how they are spent, etc. I feel like that’s all anybody has really been asking for, and that’s when Narrative comes in w/ this really vague answer about how nonprofits need to fundraise. So fundraise for what? If practitioners of the art form you claim to be “keeping alive” are questioning your practices. Why not be up front abt your decision-making?
Well said, Tim.
Well said, Tim.
i found it in spam, sean:
Submitted on 2009/12/23 at 5:37pm
Tried to say something about PT Barnum, how Narrative magazine’s webite looks like poetry.com to me and something about reading swartwood’s blog, not sure, time for egg not (I spike mine with Ketamine)
Submitted on 2009/12/23 at 5:29pm
I think their website has a poetry.com feel. I think P.T. Barnum was right, and so I am torn. If you pay $20 to submit you have entered damn-fool territory. Then again, I once bought a $19 Sherlock Holmes figurine off Ebay. I think I will read Swartwood’s blog for now on. Did not know it existed. Then again, I am cucumber.
i found it in spam, sean:
Submitted on 2009/12/23 at 5:37pm
Tried to say something about PT Barnum, how Narrative magazine’s webite looks like poetry.com to me and something about reading swartwood’s blog, not sure, time for egg not (I spike mine with Ketamine)
Submitted on 2009/12/23 at 5:29pm
I think their website has a poetry.com feel. I think P.T. Barnum was right, and so I am torn. If you pay $20 to submit you have entered damn-fool territory. Then again, I once bought a $19 Sherlock Holmes figurine off Ebay. I think I will read Swartwood’s blog for now on. Did not know it existed. Then again, I am cucumber.
Wow. Have you seen the two mugs on Narrative’s homepage? I kind of a looksist. Like when I look at an author photo, I can usually tell how they write. (Don’t ask me how I do this. It’s like the magic that God gave Jesus.) If those are the two people running that magazine, then thee is definitely something awry going on.
“But how can you tell just based in their looks?”
I said don’t ask. It’s like the magic powers that God gave Jesus.
Wow. Have you seen the two mugs on Narrative’s homepage? I kind of a looksist. Like when I look at an author photo, I can usually tell how they write. (Don’t ask me how I do this. It’s like the magic that God gave Jesus.) If those are the two people running that magazine, then thee is definitely something awry going on.
“But how can you tell just based in their looks?”
I said don’t ask. It’s like the magic powers that God gave Jesus.
Tim, I know they’re not millionaires but in terms of literary magazines, they are in a very elite stratosphere in terms of operating budgets so in that regard, in thinking about scale, I think the comparison is fair enough. I would say the same thing about Ploughshares getting an NEA grant only they don’t charge $20 a submission so it doesn’t irk me as much.
Tim, I know they’re not millionaires but in terms of literary magazines, they are in a very elite stratosphere in terms of operating budgets so in that regard, in thinking about scale, I think the comparison is fair enough. I would say the same thing about Ploughshares getting an NEA grant only they don’t charge $20 a submission so it doesn’t irk me as much.
i cant remember if that was me or blake about the 30k. i dont remember making a big deal though. regardless, i do think your comment here is smart. what is shocking about the 990 is to see all of those exp. (which you point out come from operating in current nonprof conditions) that are coming from a model that is pretty standard, maybe.
i cant remember if that was me or blake about the 30k. i dont remember making a big deal though. regardless, i do think your comment here is smart. what is shocking about the 990 is to see all of those exp. (which you point out come from operating in current nonprof conditions) that are coming from a model that is pretty standard, maybe.
Thanks for this, Tim. Whenever Narrative comes up on Giant, everybody suddenly starts pretending like they don’t understand what a nonprofit business is, or what it costs to run one. Everyone gets a sudden case of Naivety and Righteous Indignation, which I think is sort of like having to throw up while you also have the runs. It’s a wonder more of us don’t end up dehydrated.
What it honestly comes down to is that there is a strong bias on this site against people who either are–or are endeavoring to be–paid for their labor as a writer. These people are dedicated members of the literary community, but at some point by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated–they make their living doing Thing A, and with whatever time remains, engage in Thing B, ie writing/publishing/editing/etc. This is not a condemnation of those people. They do however, have a fundamental difference in philosophy and disposition with those of us who refuse to concede writing’s status as Thing A. We endeavor to make our art the source of our bread, and do as little of our own Thing B (anything other than writing/publishing/etc.) as humanly possible–even if it usually means having less bread, and stale.
Those of us who approach literature as both craft AND vocation have markedly more sympathy for organizations such as Narrative, that pay their contributors, than those who would prefer that the literary economy not intersect with the money economy at all. This is NOT to say that we have no critiques. Yeah sure, there are five things I’d change about Narrative if you gave me the run of their office for the afternoon–but there are also five things I’d change at the New Yorker. It doesn’t mean that I begrudge David Remnick the money that Chanel No. 5 for for a back-page ad on the current issue.
I personally would not pay Narrative’s submission fee, because it seems like a bad investment to me–relatively high outlay for relatively low probability of return–and the business called Justin Taylor is struggling enough already as it is. Nonetheless, I don’t feel duped by them, and I don’t see why others do. I never thought I was an elitist before–and I still don’t–but this kind of knee-jerk blinders-on tar-and-feather attitude really embodies the narrowness and prejudice of the so-called anti-elitists in our little scene.
@ Rox – Part of what bothers me abt the $20 is that… if a considerable portion of Narrative’s expenses are salaries, healthcare, and payment for independent contractors, then these people are making viable careers for themselves in literature literally at the expense of the aspiring writers paying the submission fees.
Fundraising from individuals is really important for non-profits, but individuals should know what they are making is a donation. And if an organization is going to initiate fee-for-service projects to raise money, they should be something like the Dzanc Creative Writing Sessions, something that truly is a service.
Thanks for this, Tim. Whenever Narrative comes up on Giant, everybody suddenly starts pretending like they don’t understand what a nonprofit business is, or what it costs to run one. Everyone gets a sudden case of Naivety and Righteous Indignation, which I think is sort of like having to throw up while you also have the runs. It’s a wonder more of us don’t end up dehydrated.
What it honestly comes down to is that there is a strong bias on this site against people who either are–or are endeavoring to be–paid for their labor as a writer. These people are dedicated members of the literary community, but at some point by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated–they make their living doing Thing A, and with whatever time remains, engage in Thing B, ie writing/publishing/editing/etc. This is not a condemnation of those people. They do however, have a fundamental difference in philosophy and disposition with those of us who refuse to concede writing’s status as Thing A. We endeavor to make our art the source of our bread, and do as little of our own Thing B (anything other than writing/publishing/etc.) as humanly possible–even if it usually means having less bread, and stale.
Those of us who approach literature as both craft AND vocation have markedly more sympathy for organizations such as Narrative, that pay their contributors, than those who would prefer that the literary economy not intersect with the money economy at all. This is NOT to say that we have no critiques. Yeah sure, there are five things I’d change about Narrative if you gave me the run of their office for the afternoon–but there are also five things I’d change at the New Yorker. It doesn’t mean that I begrudge David Remnick the money that Chanel No. 5 for for a back-page ad on the current issue.
I personally would not pay Narrative’s submission fee, because it seems like a bad investment to me–relatively high outlay for relatively low probability of return–and the business called Justin Taylor is struggling enough already as it is. Nonetheless, I don’t feel duped by them, and I don’t see why others do. I never thought I was an elitist before–and I still don’t–but this kind of knee-jerk blinders-on tar-and-feather attitude really embodies the narrowness and prejudice of the so-called anti-elitists in our little scene.
@ Rox – Part of what bothers me abt the $20 is that… if a considerable portion of Narrative’s expenses are salaries, healthcare, and payment for independent contractors, then these people are making viable careers for themselves in literature literally at the expense of the aspiring writers paying the submission fees.
Fundraising from individuals is really important for non-profits, but individuals should know what they are making is a donation. And if an organization is going to initiate fee-for-service projects to raise money, they should be something like the Dzanc Creative Writing Sessions, something that truly is a service.
I think we’re being unfair. There are two weeks out of the year that they don’t require a submission fee.
I think we’re being unfair. There are two weeks out of the year that they don’t require a submission fee.
Oh now my comment appears and I either do or don’t feel like an ass.
I need to go run.
Oh now my comment appears and I either do or don’t feel like an ass.
I need to go run.
“Those of us who approach literature as both craft AND vocation have markedly more sympathy for organizations such as Narrative,”
come fart in me, why don’t you
justin
you know i mean that out of love, but if you think the only reason people are shitting on this institution is because it is simply ‘profitable’, you are intentionally blinding yourself.
$400,000 to run a fucking website that takes its money in by being a nonprofit and from people they rarely if ever publish, while feeding it elsewhere, is a fucking crime. it is in no way the same as what the new yorker does. it’s a crime.
that said, if people are dumb enough to pay $20 for consideration on a website, that’s their problem. but grants and recognition as ‘the way it should be’ is sickening.
Adam, Roxane, Blake & etc. have a point: something needs to be done about Narrative, but not necessarily in a malicious way (because then they’ll play the we’re trying to save online literature martyr card).
Here are the facts (and some have already been stated):
This is how Narrative describes themselves in the donations section: “Narrative is the first and only online periodical publishing first-rank new works by well-known and emerging writers.” Did you get that? FIRST and ONLY. Forget Mississippi Review. Slate? Not a chance.
They publish big names (Rick Bass, TC Boyle, Matthew Dickman, Robert Stone, etc.) and those big names would never speak against them; not when free advertising exists for their work.
They allow big names to win their contests (Richard Bausch, who is a “masterly storyteller,” in case you didn’t know).
There is no end to the audacity of Narrative: they actual have this designation in their call for donations:
“Narrative Circle Gifts over $10,000”
Think about that: someone at Narrative actually imagines a person could give over $10,000. If you have 10,000, donate it to a charity, not a front for Carol Edgarian and Tom Jenks (who are, as you can imagine, quite connected in the pub. scene, and therefore impervious to our little criticisms).
And, to boot…who else is scared to death of Robert Olen Butler’s satanic headshot?
Have you ever seen a longer list of Assistant Editors?
My God. Merry Christmas, everyone.
“Those of us who approach literature as both craft AND vocation have markedly more sympathy for organizations such as Narrative,”
come fart in me, why don’t you
justin
you know i mean that out of love, but if you think the only reason people are shitting on this institution is because it is simply ‘profitable’, you are intentionally blinding yourself.
$400,000 to run a fucking website that takes its money in by being a nonprofit and from people they rarely if ever publish, while feeding it elsewhere, is a fucking crime. it is in no way the same as what the new yorker does. it’s a crime.
that said, if people are dumb enough to pay $20 for consideration on a website, that’s their problem. but grants and recognition as ‘the way it should be’ is sickening.
Adam, Roxane, Blake & etc. have a point: something needs to be done about Narrative, but not necessarily in a malicious way (because then they’ll play the we’re trying to save online literature martyr card).
Here are the facts (and some have already been stated):
This is how Narrative describes themselves in the donations section: “Narrative is the first and only online periodical publishing first-rank new works by well-known and emerging writers.” Did you get that? FIRST and ONLY. Forget Mississippi Review. Slate? Not a chance.
They publish big names (Rick Bass, TC Boyle, Matthew Dickman, Robert Stone, etc.) and those big names would never speak against them; not when free advertising exists for their work.
They allow big names to win their contests (Richard Bausch, who is a “masterly storyteller,” in case you didn’t know).
There is no end to the audacity of Narrative: they actual have this designation in their call for donations:
“Narrative Circle Gifts over $10,000”
Think about that: someone at Narrative actually imagines a person could give over $10,000. If you have 10,000, donate it to a charity, not a front for Carol Edgarian and Tom Jenks (who are, as you can imagine, quite connected in the pub. scene, and therefore impervious to our little criticisms).
And, to boot…who else is scared to death of Robert Olen Butler’s satanic headshot?
Have you ever seen a longer list of Assistant Editors?
My God. Merry Christmas, everyone.
Definitely! …the amount of money that goes into administrative expenses is depressing.
Definitely! …the amount of money that goes into administrative expenses is depressing.
Though I agree with you on some level, I feel like your argument here pigeon-holes people critical of Narrative into a rather narrow view of economies.
I see the reactions here to be more critical of the shiftiness of their business, the predatory nature/perception of the sub fee. Tim says it great below:
“if a considerable portion of Narrative’s expenses are salaries, healthcare, and payment for independent contractors, then these people are making viable careers for themselves in literature literally at the expense of the aspiring writers paying the submission fees.
Fundraising from individuals is really important for non-profits, but individuals should know what they are making is a donation. And if an organization is going to initiate fee-for-service projects to raise money, they should be something like the Dzanc Creative Writing Sessions, something that truly is a service.”
Though I agree with you on some level, I feel like your argument here pigeon-holes people critical of Narrative into a rather narrow view of economies.
I see the reactions here to be more critical of the shiftiness of their business, the predatory nature/perception of the sub fee. Tim says it great below:
“if a considerable portion of Narrative’s expenses are salaries, healthcare, and payment for independent contractors, then these people are making viable careers for themselves in literature literally at the expense of the aspiring writers paying the submission fees.
Fundraising from individuals is really important for non-profits, but individuals should know what they are making is a donation. And if an organization is going to initiate fee-for-service projects to raise money, they should be something like the Dzanc Creative Writing Sessions, something that truly is a service.”
Justin I have to disagree with some of what you say here. Writers should absolutely be paid, as should editors and publishers. I am a big fan of capitalism. As a writer, I prefer submitting to magazines who will pay me. I don’t think it is anti-elitist to say that there are some issues surrounding Narrative and how they operate. Yes, they pay their contributors but to do so on the backs of writers who will never be published in the magazine is troubling. As Swartwood points out in his post, what are the chances that the famous writers they publish pay the submission fee? In a free economy, the Narrative approach is as viable as any, but come on… doesn’t it make you twinge, even a little? The difference between Narrative and the New Yorker is that when an advertiser pays for the back page ad for Chanel No. 5 in the New Yorker, they actually get something for their money, as do the people who subscribe to the magazine. In terms of grant funding, I can read a balance sheet. I get what Tim is saying but I also think of all the smaller magazines for whom $10,000 would do a world of good because it is more than 100% of their current operating costs. Perhaps this is simply a matter of fairness, of thinking that sometimes it would be nice if it weren’t only the rich getting richer and that for $20, a writer should get more than a 90+ day form rejection. Of course, life isn’t fair so it’s all good, but this isn’t about anti-elitism. We’re all pretty elite sitting at this particular table bulshitting about writing.
“What it honestly comes down to is that there is a strong bias on this site against people who either are–or are endeavoring to be–paid for their labor as a writer. These people are dedicated members of the literary community, but at some point by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated–they make their living doing Thing A, and with whatever time remains, engage in Thing B, ie writing/publishing/editing/etc.”
What? I don’t see that.
And the beef with Narrative is that they suck, and also, I’ll say more intelligently, I think it’s screwy that the system they have figured out to join their “Thing A” and “Thing B” is: charge the writers. That’s about the cynicallest approach ever, and it’s propagated on the larger problem: that only writers read in the first place.
Fucking bullshit, man.
Justin I have to disagree with some of what you say here. Writers should absolutely be paid, as should editors and publishers. I am a big fan of capitalism. As a writer, I prefer submitting to magazines who will pay me. I don’t think it is anti-elitist to say that there are some issues surrounding Narrative and how they operate. Yes, they pay their contributors but to do so on the backs of writers who will never be published in the magazine is troubling. As Swartwood points out in his post, what are the chances that the famous writers they publish pay the submission fee? In a free economy, the Narrative approach is as viable as any, but come on… doesn’t it make you twinge, even a little? The difference between Narrative and the New Yorker is that when an advertiser pays for the back page ad for Chanel No. 5 in the New Yorker, they actually get something for their money, as do the people who subscribe to the magazine. In terms of grant funding, I can read a balance sheet. I get what Tim is saying but I also think of all the smaller magazines for whom $10,000 would do a world of good because it is more than 100% of their current operating costs. Perhaps this is simply a matter of fairness, of thinking that sometimes it would be nice if it weren’t only the rich getting richer and that for $20, a writer should get more than a 90+ day form rejection. Of course, life isn’t fair so it’s all good, but this isn’t about anti-elitism. We’re all pretty elite sitting at this particular table bulshitting about writing.
“What it honestly comes down to is that there is a strong bias on this site against people who either are–or are endeavoring to be–paid for their labor as a writer. These people are dedicated members of the literary community, but at some point by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated–they make their living doing Thing A, and with whatever time remains, engage in Thing B, ie writing/publishing/editing/etc.”
What? I don’t see that.
And the beef with Narrative is that they suck, and also, I’ll say more intelligently, I think it’s screwy that the system they have figured out to join their “Thing A” and “Thing B” is: charge the writers. That’s about the cynicallest approach ever, and it’s propagated on the larger problem: that only writers read in the first place.
Fucking bullshit, man.
OK, I’m not going to bed. Might just slay the dragon, so expect maniac posts later.
I don’t think “big name” authors need to enter lit mag contests. I don’t see the point. Maybe this is another thread, for later, but come on. There is a career ladder. Maybe lay off the lit mag contests when you just wrote your 9th novel.
(Not trying to steal Crustacean’s glow, just agreeing).
Anybody still drink Zima?
OK, I’m not going to bed. Might just slay the dragon, so expect maniac posts later.
I don’t think “big name” authors need to enter lit mag contests. I don’t see the point. Maybe this is another thread, for later, but come on. There is a career ladder. Maybe lay off the lit mag contests when you just wrote your 9th novel.
(Not trying to steal Crustacean’s glow, just agreeing).
Anybody still drink Zima?
I used to love Zima. When it first came out, I felt so fancy, like I was drinking some really classy shit. Haven’t had one in a while though. I’ve been slumming.
I used to love Zima. When it first came out, I felt so fancy, like I was drinking some really classy shit. Haven’t had one in a while though. I’ve been slumming.
OOPS, meant to comment this here:
“What it honestly comes down to is that there is a strong bias on this site against people who either are–or are endeavoring to be–paid for their labor as a writer. These people are dedicated members of the literary community, but at some point by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated–they make their living doing Thing A, and with whatever time remains, engage in Thing B, ie writing/publishing/editing/etc.”
What? I don’t see that.
And the beef with Narrative is that they suck, and also, I’ll say more intelligently, I think it’s screwy that the system they have figured out to join their “Thing A” and “Thing B” is: charge the writers. That’s about the cynicallest approach ever, and it’s propagated on the larger problem: that only writers read in the first place.
Fucking bullshit, man.
Nah, man. It’s all Schmirnoff Triple Black now. Haven’t you heard?
I want to read that future post from you, Sean.
OOPS, meant to comment this here:
“What it honestly comes down to is that there is a strong bias on this site against people who either are–or are endeavoring to be–paid for their labor as a writer. These people are dedicated members of the literary community, but at some point by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated–they make their living doing Thing A, and with whatever time remains, engage in Thing B, ie writing/publishing/editing/etc.”
What? I don’t see that.
And the beef with Narrative is that they suck, and also, I’ll say more intelligently, I think it’s screwy that the system they have figured out to join their “Thing A” and “Thing B” is: charge the writers. That’s about the cynicallest approach ever, and it’s propagated on the larger problem: that only writers read in the first place.
Fucking bullshit, man.
Nah, man. It’s all Schmirnoff Triple Black now. Haven’t you heard?
I want to read that future post from you, Sean.
I just made a decision. NOT having this stupid fight again. You guys want to go another 10 rounds on this, knock yourselves out. But if you’re curious about how many times this wheel has been re-invented just here on this site, here’s a rundown of the greatest hits as played on this particularly tiny violin-
10/13/2008 “Narrative Magazine is Edited by George W. Bush”
posted by Blake Butler (56 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-journals/narrative-magazine-is-edited-by-george-w-bush/
02/23/2009 “Narrative Magazine, the Gold Standard of Online Publications, Wants $20 to read Your Short-short”
posted by Blake Butler (46 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-hype/narrative-magazine-the-gold-standard-of-online-publications-wants-5-to-read-your-work/
03/16/2009 “Mean Monday: Narrative Magazine Again! A Comment that Takes Things One Step Further”
posted by pr (61 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-journals/mean-monday-narrative-magazine-again-a-comment-that-takes-things-one-step-further/
04/26/2009 “2007 Form 990- Narrative Magazine”
posted by Ryan Call (72 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-journals/2007-form-990-narrative-magazine/
06/19/2009 “Fleeced by FC2?”
posted by Ryan Call (31 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/mean/fleeced-by-fc2/
When it first came out? How old are you? I was maybe 10 when it first came out.
I just made a decision. NOT having this stupid fight again. You guys want to go another 10 rounds on this, knock yourselves out. But if you’re curious about how many times this wheel has been re-invented just here on this site, here’s a rundown of the greatest hits as played on this particularly tiny violin-
10/13/2008 “Narrative Magazine is Edited by George W. Bush”
posted by Blake Butler (56 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-journals/narrative-magazine-is-edited-by-george-w-bush/
02/23/2009 “Narrative Magazine, the Gold Standard of Online Publications, Wants $20 to read Your Short-short”
posted by Blake Butler (46 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-hype/narrative-magazine-the-gold-standard-of-online-publications-wants-5-to-read-your-work/
03/16/2009 “Mean Monday: Narrative Magazine Again! A Comment that Takes Things One Step Further”
posted by pr (61 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-journals/mean-monday-narrative-magazine-again-a-comment-that-takes-things-one-step-further/
04/26/2009 “2007 Form 990- Narrative Magazine”
posted by Ryan Call (72 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/web-journals/2007-form-990-narrative-magazine/
06/19/2009 “Fleeced by FC2?”
posted by Ryan Call (31 comments)
http://htmlgiant.com/mean/fleeced-by-fc2/
When it first came out? How old are you? I was maybe 10 when it first came out.
oh, go vote for barack obama
:P
This tells me that we need to try harder, do better.
oh, go vote for barack obama
:P
This tells me that we need to try harder, do better.
and ps to Blake- yes I know you meant it out of love. What I don’t know is what you meant. “fart in me…” As Samuel L. Jackson once said, “English, Motherfucker! Do-you-speak-it?” Peace-
and ps to Blake- yes I know you meant it out of love. What I don’t know is what you meant. “fart in me…” As Samuel L. Jackson once said, “English, Motherfucker! Do-you-speak-it?” Peace-
Some tunes are worthy of infinite performances.
This tells me that i don’t care, i’m going to keep bring it up, the way people keep bringing up the ‘bullshit of the war’
because it’s bullshit, and they still haven’t responded.
i won’t bother to post aggregate links of other things repeated toward death in this way, even by justin, because it’s good to keep talking about things.
Some tunes are worthy of infinite performances.
This tells me that i don’t care, i’m going to keep bring it up, the way people keep bringing up the ‘bullshit of the war’
because it’s bullshit, and they still haven’t responded.
i won’t bother to post aggregate links of other things repeated toward death in this way, even by justin, because it’s good to keep talking about things.
I drink your milkshake, Adam, I drink it up!
I drink your milkshake, Adam, I drink it up!
seemed pretty clear to me. that comment was a fart in my mouth.
“Maybe lay off the lit mag contests when you just wrote your 9th novel. ”
________________
Seriously. This is the problem I have with Narrative–you can’t convince me that writers like Richard Bausch and Janet Burroway are in fact “entering” these contests; it makes no sense for them to do so, unless they’re being solicited.
Why in the hell would writers like Bausch and Burroway, who can be published anywhere, pay 20 bucks to be judged in a blind contest?
down to one now, bucko
seemed pretty clear to me. that comment was a fart in my mouth.
“Maybe lay off the lit mag contests when you just wrote your 9th novel. ”
________________
Seriously. This is the problem I have with Narrative–you can’t convince me that writers like Richard Bausch and Janet Burroway are in fact “entering” these contests; it makes no sense for them to do so, unless they’re being solicited.
Why in the hell would writers like Bausch and Burroway, who can be published anywhere, pay 20 bucks to be judged in a blind contest?
down to one now, bucko
I was serious about how we should do something. Maybe a petition.
I was serious about how we should do something. Maybe a petition.
I am 35. Zima came out when I was 18 and a sophomore in college and as such impressed by fancy clear beverages in a sexy bottle.
Now I feel old.
I am 35. Zima came out when I was 18 and a sophomore in college and as such impressed by fancy clear beverages in a sexy bottle.
Now I feel old.
My partner is 41. Now you feel young again.
My partner is 41. Now you feel young again.
NVM. I didn’t realize that Narrative doesn’t hire independent judges, and thus isn’t running a real “contest” (no matter what they say). It’s not a “contest” if there’s not an outside judge and the submissions aren’t blind. Hilarious.
fake tom jenks is hilarious.
NVM. I didn’t realize that Narrative doesn’t hire independent judges, and thus isn’t running a real “contest” (no matter what they say). It’s not a “contest” if there’s not an outside judge and the submissions aren’t blind. Hilarious.
fake tom jenks is hilarious.
““Narrative is the first and only online periodical publishing first-rank new works by well-known and emerging writers.” Did you get that? FIRST and ONLY. Forget Mississippi Review. Slate? Not a chance.”
….I think this another issue that maybe could/should be addressed more. I think it’s totally fair to criticize them for them treating the rest of the sector like crap. Their approach definitely comes across as insular and self-promoting and the opposite of community-oriented.
““Narrative is the first and only online periodical publishing first-rank new works by well-known and emerging writers.” Did you get that? FIRST and ONLY. Forget Mississippi Review. Slate? Not a chance.”
….I think this another issue that maybe could/should be addressed more. I think it’s totally fair to criticize them for them treating the rest of the sector like crap. Their approach definitely comes across as insular and self-promoting and the opposite of community-oriented.
I think the comparison to other lit mags is fair. I feel like questions abt resource distribution are always important to ask.
And Narrative definitely does not use their position of power to help support or promote other ventures beyond their own.
One of the reasons I think having a few larger and more established institutions can theoretically be a good thing is they can support and incubate start-up projects, provide administrative support, sort-of act as an anchor institution for a greater sector or community beyond their own organization, which is absolutely not Narrative’s agenda. Dzanc functions much more like what I’m imagining.
It’s pretty common practice in grantmaking for larger grants to go to more established organizations… the theory being that small groups aren’t necessarily stable enough to manage the funds, and also that it’s important a group not become reliant on a single funder (sometimes when grantmakers give multiyear startup grants they will reduce the amount each year to encourage diversification of income). …there is some wisdom to this (I’ve definitely seen groups that were established with huge amounts of cash from a single funder but little community support fall apart after the initial funding runs out) and also some problems in terms of power and inequality and such. But… you know… there’s serious problems with the power structure of philanthropy in general.
I think the comparison to other lit mags is fair. I feel like questions abt resource distribution are always important to ask.
And Narrative definitely does not use their position of power to help support or promote other ventures beyond their own.
One of the reasons I think having a few larger and more established institutions can theoretically be a good thing is they can support and incubate start-up projects, provide administrative support, sort-of act as an anchor institution for a greater sector or community beyond their own organization, which is absolutely not Narrative’s agenda. Dzanc functions much more like what I’m imagining.
It’s pretty common practice in grantmaking for larger grants to go to more established organizations… the theory being that small groups aren’t necessarily stable enough to manage the funds, and also that it’s important a group not become reliant on a single funder (sometimes when grantmakers give multiyear startup grants they will reduce the amount each year to encourage diversification of income). …there is some wisdom to this (I’ve definitely seen groups that were established with huge amounts of cash from a single funder but little community support fall apart after the initial funding runs out) and also some problems in terms of power and inequality and such. But… you know… there’s serious problems with the power structure of philanthropy in general.
Man, that is BS, Justin. Why does a topic get regurgitated? Maybe the same reason animals (for same reason, mostly birds) regurgitate food: the shit is not Done.
To bring it back isn’t a sign of lame. It is a sign of walking.
Man, that is BS, Justin. Why does a topic get regurgitated? Maybe the same reason animals (for same reason, mostly birds) regurgitate food: the shit is not Done.
To bring it back isn’t a sign of lame. It is a sign of walking.
Thanks, Tim. I needed that.
Thanks, Tim. I needed that.
The authors accepted for publication in Narrative should pay Narrative promptly upon acceptance.
Nah, nobody should be paying them a goddamn dime but I would love to have access to administrative and editorial end of Narratives operations, their email and shit. That’d be fun.
The authors accepted for publication in Narrative should pay Narrative promptly upon acceptance.
Nah, nobody should be paying them a goddamn dime but I would love to have access to administrative and editorial end of Narratives operations, their email and shit. That’d be fun.
timothy, send me a story for a special contest we are having (you can pay the reading fee later, LOL)
cheerios,
Thomas L. Jenks
timothy, send me a story for a special contest we are having (you can pay the reading fee later, LOL)
cheerios,
Thomas L. Jenks
Normally I’m on board with you, Justin, but I have to strongly disagree with you here. For all the head-slapping I do sometimes at the stuff I read in the comments at the Giant, I honestly don’t think people at this place are against being paid for writing. I’m thinking very specifically of the general excitement and kudos and feelings of good will from all the regulars here when Shane Jones’s Light Boxes was picked up by Spike Jonze and then by Penguin. (There were some snarky comments, I remember, but I was pretty certain they were either anonymous or the product of one of the usual suspects when it comes to snarkiness, and, at least, in the minority).I do honestly think the general attitude that prevails here is those who can write for a living are profoundly lucky and deserve it for their effort and talent. In a general sense, if we take that resentful attitude as existing more broadly, and I’m sure it does — when I read Narrative, what I find over and over is that this apparently nurturing intersection of the literary and market economy isn’t tending to produce terribly exciting literature. What is producing, however, is certain literary stocks. And basically that’s what it’s non-profit interest really is: to parlay the next big thing, irregardless of whether the next big thing is the best thing. Now I’m certainly not dictating that writers have to be good in order to write and to get paid to write (after all, who decides good?) but the non-profit seedling-nuture posture of Narrative insists upon an essential angle of social responsibility to what Narrative does and it is the exact content and nature of what that responsibility is supposed to be that is under critique here, not the point of whether writers should be paid for writing. I entirely agree with you and Tim that we don’t want to risk romanticizing poverty and obscurity but nor do I much appreciate the idea of published writers earning the money of other writers whose writing has been rejected. It is, quite plainly, a bad ethic. It tithes a bulk of writers to gild a few. And it romanticises the nature of non-profits which are not inherently good samaritans but are also things that resources are spent upon and which thus have an obligation all the more to be stringent in how they procure and distribute their funds as the money that goes to them is a type of mediation of the literary field. Non-profits are not cheap to run and there is a degree of naivety in not taking that into direct account but it’s cynical, basically, to point to the ‘real costs’ and use that to argue that economic rationalism supercedes the question of responsibility, especially when you’re claiming the mantle of the non-profit. Moreover, I really really disagree with this Thing A and Thing B distinction you make. I don’t think it’s fair to claim that there are a group of writers or lit-people who “by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated” to writing, as though decision and necessity were interchangeable terms, or, at least, amounted to the same thing. You work to make your art support you and thus you have to work under the paucity that brings you but the vocational aspect of your art does not thereby become especially heroic, no more so than the person drawn into another line of work is tragic, because literature can’t produce a steady stream of income, even at the best of times. Not to mention, there’s a reason a fuckton of established writers also teach and have chairs at universities and so on. The assured salary frees them to write. You upon this yourself to some degree, right? Teaching – or even just being paid as an honorary fellow – falls into Thing A because while it may relate to writing, you aren’t being paid for writing itself; at most, it’s you being paid for knowing how to write and for the social function of writing. All of which just goes to show that earning money for art is not so much the source of interrogation here as the idea that true vocational writers somehow rise only by sheer tenacity and without the privilege of fine webs of support not for writing in an unconditioned sense but for this idea of ‘writer’. As a non-profit, Narrative should be part of a support economy but it is not. It’s supportive only of the made or the already making it. Artists need more economic provisions that focus on the cultivation of writing over the production of writerly personas. What they don’t need is admission fees levied against their peers by lit magazines cooing about their love of the literary.
Normally I’m on board with you, Justin, but I have to strongly disagree with you here. For all the head-slapping I do sometimes at the stuff I read in the comments at the Giant, I honestly don’t think people at this place are against being paid for writing. I’m thinking very specifically of the general excitement and kudos and feelings of good will from all the regulars here when Shane Jones’s Light Boxes was picked up by Spike Jonze and then by Penguin. (There were some snarky comments, I remember, but I was pretty certain they were either anonymous or the product of one of the usual suspects when it comes to snarkiness, and, at least, in the minority).I do honestly think the general attitude that prevails here is those who can write for a living are profoundly lucky and deserve it for their effort and talent. In a general sense, if we take that resentful attitude as existing more broadly, and I’m sure it does — when I read Narrative, what I find over and over is that this apparently nurturing intersection of the literary and market economy isn’t tending to produce terribly exciting literature. What is producing, however, is certain literary stocks. And basically that’s what it’s non-profit interest really is: to parlay the next big thing, irregardless of whether the next big thing is the best thing. Now I’m certainly not dictating that writers have to be good in order to write and to get paid to write (after all, who decides good?) but the non-profit seedling-nuture posture of Narrative insists upon an essential angle of social responsibility to what Narrative does and it is the exact content and nature of what that responsibility is supposed to be that is under critique here, not the point of whether writers should be paid for writing. I entirely agree with you and Tim that we don’t want to risk romanticizing poverty and obscurity but nor do I much appreciate the idea of published writers earning the money of other writers whose writing has been rejected. It is, quite plainly, a bad ethic. It tithes a bulk of writers to gild a few. And it romanticises the nature of non-profits which are not inherently good samaritans but are also things that resources are spent upon and which thus have an obligation all the more to be stringent in how they procure and distribute their funds as the money that goes to them is a type of mediation of the literary field. Non-profits are not cheap to run and there is a degree of naivety in not taking that into direct account but it’s cynical, basically, to point to the ‘real costs’ and use that to argue that economic rationalism supercedes the question of responsibility, especially when you’re claiming the mantle of the non-profit. Moreover, I really really disagree with this Thing A and Thing B distinction you make. I don’t think it’s fair to claim that there are a group of writers or lit-people who “by either decision or necessity decided that they were dedicated as hobbyists are dedicated” to writing, as though decision and necessity were interchangeable terms, or, at least, amounted to the same thing. You work to make your art support you and thus you have to work under the paucity that brings you but the vocational aspect of your art does not thereby become especially heroic, no more so than the person drawn into another line of work is tragic, because literature can’t produce a steady stream of income, even at the best of times. Not to mention, there’s a reason a fuckton of established writers also teach and have chairs at universities and so on. The assured salary frees them to write. You upon this yourself to some degree, right? Teaching – or even just being paid as an honorary fellow – falls into Thing A because while it may relate to writing, you aren’t being paid for writing itself; at most, it’s you being paid for knowing how to write and for the social function of writing. All of which just goes to show that earning money for art is not so much the source of interrogation here as the idea that true vocational writers somehow rise only by sheer tenacity and without the privilege of fine webs of support not for writing in an unconditioned sense but for this idea of ‘writer’. As a non-profit, Narrative should be part of a support economy but it is not. It’s supportive only of the made or the already making it. Artists need more economic provisions that focus on the cultivation of writing over the production of writerly personas. What they don’t need is admission fees levied against their peers by lit magazines cooing about their love of the literary.
PS. Sorry for any overlap. I began this comment before there were any other comments, should have checked before I posted.
PS. Sorry for any overlap. I began this comment before there were any other comments, should have checked before I posted.
PPS. Oh also, plenty of mistakes in this but a couple of key corrections, I meant to say “You rely upon this yourself to some degree, right?” and also to write “tutorial aide” where I wrote “honorary fellow”, dont ask me how I mixed that up. Sorry again, my mind went for a walk toward the end there.
PPS. Oh also, plenty of mistakes in this but a couple of key corrections, I meant to say “You rely upon this yourself to some degree, right?” and also to write “tutorial aide” where I wrote “honorary fellow”, dont ask me how I mixed that up. Sorry again, my mind went for a walk toward the end there.
Justin, you can understand what a nonprofit is and how much it costs to run with and still think that not all nonprofits are worthy causes. Exploiting emerging (or not-quite-emerging) writers so you can put a website together and publish writers you want to be friends with…it may be expensive to do that, and they might use every bit of the entry-fee $$ to keep it going, but coke habits are expensive too–doesn’t mean you should steal from the poor to keep it going, even if you buy your friends coke too.
Your New Yorker analogy makes zero sense. Of course nobody minds that the NYer sells ads–who would they be exploiting? The Chanel corporation? Please. The NYer doesn’t charge for submissions, and they respond to every one without too much delay, from what I’ve heard. Sure, they are for-profit, but you’re the one who equated them.
That’s great for you that you aren’t duped by them. I was, one time. Good for you that you know it’s a terrible investment. So are high-interest loans that don’t require credit checks–are we cool with those now, just because we know better?
Justin, you can understand what a nonprofit is and how much it costs to run with and still think that not all nonprofits are worthy causes. Exploiting emerging (or not-quite-emerging) writers so you can put a website together and publish writers you want to be friends with…it may be expensive to do that, and they might use every bit of the entry-fee $$ to keep it going, but coke habits are expensive too–doesn’t mean you should steal from the poor to keep it going, even if you buy your friends coke too.
Your New Yorker analogy makes zero sense. Of course nobody minds that the NYer sells ads–who would they be exploiting? The Chanel corporation? Please. The NYer doesn’t charge for submissions, and they respond to every one without too much delay, from what I’ve heard. Sure, they are for-profit, but you’re the one who equated them.
That’s great for you that you aren’t duped by them. I was, one time. Good for you that you know it’s a terrible investment. So are high-interest loans that don’t require credit checks–are we cool with those now, just because we know better?
Five times isn’t so many times.
Five times isn’t so many times.
they invented the literary interwebs.
it’s incredibly obnoxious and ignores the interesting and exciting stuff already happening on the long-established online community.
there are “higher-end” sites that are integrating with the existing community, i.e. electric lit, fifty-two stories, anderbo. hell, harper perennial has embraced the community full throttle.
this FIRST and ONLY business is pretty insulting.
they invented the literary interwebs.
it’s incredibly obnoxious and ignores the interesting and exciting stuff already happening on the long-established online community.
there are “higher-end” sites that are integrating with the existing community, i.e. electric lit, fifty-two stories, anderbo. hell, harper perennial has embraced the community full throttle.
this FIRST and ONLY business is pretty insulting.
Hey, at least you got something for your $19. Buying something and spending $20 on a submission that will, in all likelihood, never be published because they are already soliciting a good deal of writers are two vastly different things.
Not that I give a shit about Narrative. I will never submit to them. The only thing that really pissed me off was the NEA grant. If some of the figures above are true, it makes me upset that anyone on that staff would receive an $80k salary and still have the gall to submit their website for a NEA grant. I’m with Roxane on that one.
Hey, at least you got something for your $19. Buying something and spending $20 on a submission that will, in all likelihood, never be published because they are already soliciting a good deal of writers are two vastly different things.
Not that I give a shit about Narrative. I will never submit to them. The only thing that really pissed me off was the NEA grant. If some of the figures above are true, it makes me upset that anyone on that staff would receive an $80k salary and still have the gall to submit their website for a NEA grant. I’m with Roxane on that one.
Blake, just remember: there’s a good chance that Justin’s farts taste like sunshine artichokes.
Blake, just remember: there’s a good chance that Justin’s farts taste like sunshine artichokes.
I hope you enjoyed your k-hole.
I hope you enjoyed your k-hole.
word. let’s riot.
word. let’s riot.