February 10th, 2010 / 10:50 am
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Meta
ew
ew
Jesus, that hurts. She’s like the chipper, talkative stranger in line behind you at the bank, trying to tell you about what he had for lunch or his dog or his grandfather’s bowel problems.
Jesus, that hurts. She’s like the chipper, talkative stranger in line behind you at the bank, trying to tell you about what he had for lunch or his dog or his grandfather’s bowel problems.
ahahahahah
“a situation analogous…to my own experiences in graduate school.”
who died?
ahahahahah
“a situation analogous…to my own experiences in graduate school.”
who died?
My favorite thing about this post is that “radar detectors” is in the tagline. I think that had radar detectors taken on a more significant role in the article proper, it would’ve been illuminating. It would have been one thing was she simply describing a personal odyssey that led her to want to study literature rather than write it; it’s another to make sweeping generalizations about writing itself as though her personal decision is somehow the one that anyone with a modicum of respect for literature would make. This idea that writing all boils down to simple maxims of proper etiquette, and that somehow literary study is superior because it is explicitly collaborative–it’s hard to say which of these is more ludicrous. Also pissing me off: the idea that all stories in the Best American are alike, and the notion that writers somehow don’t read other writers, but produce in a vacuum, or at least are unaware of “interesting work being done in the field for the past 20, 50, 100 years.” Huh, what field?
But anyway, thanks for lowering this morning’s punching bag, Sean. And more radar detectors, por favor.
My favorite thing about this post is that “radar detectors” is in the tagline. I think that had radar detectors taken on a more significant role in the article proper, it would’ve been illuminating. It would have been one thing was she simply describing a personal odyssey that led her to want to study literature rather than write it; it’s another to make sweeping generalizations about writing itself as though her personal decision is somehow the one that anyone with a modicum of respect for literature would make. This idea that writing all boils down to simple maxims of proper etiquette, and that somehow literary study is superior because it is explicitly collaborative–it’s hard to say which of these is more ludicrous. Also pissing me off: the idea that all stories in the Best American are alike, and the notion that writers somehow don’t read other writers, but produce in a vacuum, or at least are unaware of “interesting work being done in the field for the past 20, 50, 100 years.” Huh, what field?
But anyway, thanks for lowering this morning’s punching bag, Sean. And more radar detectors, por favor.
She certainly comes off quite smug and pleased with herself. I do grow weary of several things she touches on. I’m tired of people who consider themselves above it all and how they look down on the creative writing workshop and the writing that emerges from there. I may not have done my best writing in workshops but I certainly learned how to steer myself in that direction, how to evaluate the work of others, and how to really hear criticism. I am fascinated by writers who position the academic life as removed from reality as if somehow, within the university, we are magically shielded from the harshness of the world. I also think the irrelevant 9/11 narrative framework is annoying but that’s just me. I found the whole thing kind of myopic. I would have liked to know more about her book.
She certainly comes off quite smug and pleased with herself. I do grow weary of several things she touches on. I’m tired of people who consider themselves above it all and how they look down on the creative writing workshop and the writing that emerges from there. I may not have done my best writing in workshops but I certainly learned how to steer myself in that direction, how to evaluate the work of others, and how to really hear criticism. I am fascinated by writers who position the academic life as removed from reality as if somehow, within the university, we are magically shielded from the harshness of the world. I also think the irrelevant 9/11 narrative framework is annoying but that’s just me. I found the whole thing kind of myopic. I would have liked to know more about her book.
Tim and Roxanne, you’ve said it better than me. It made me liver groan.
The idea that a certain type of story comes out of academia is so absurd, false, and annoying it seethes me.
The idea of being shocked that a novel doesn’t just appear as you blink and wrinkle your nose. You mean it’s structurally difficult and has roadblocks and is going to take some keen, critical, intellectual thought to write this thing? Oh man.
Maybe she should have read some novelists?
The entire tone of dismissal, of the possibility of seriousness, sincere seriousness in the craft (yes, that word) and act of writing. I mean she gestures toward some valid points, but come on, I can’t listen while I have to look up your nose. I can’t answer a wagging finger.
She lives in a soap bubble of her own blowing.
Tim and Roxanne, you’ve said it better than me. It made me liver groan.
The idea that a certain type of story comes out of academia is so absurd, false, and annoying it seethes me.
The idea of being shocked that a novel doesn’t just appear as you blink and wrinkle your nose. You mean it’s structurally difficult and has roadblocks and is going to take some keen, critical, intellectual thought to write this thing? Oh man.
Maybe she should have read some novelists?
The entire tone of dismissal, of the possibility of seriousness, sincere seriousness in the craft (yes, that word) and act of writing. I mean she gestures toward some valid points, but come on, I can’t listen while I have to look up your nose. I can’t answer a wagging finger.
She lives in a soap bubble of her own blowing.
If that’s what good writing is, count me out.
If that’s what good writing is, count me out.
Thank you for posting this. I read it a few days ago and it made me cringe.
Thank you for posting this. I read it a few days ago and it made me cringe.
Nobody else thought this was interesting? I think she makes a highly compelling case, albeit one I remain unconvinced by. It seems to me like her general critique of contemporary mainstream literature (especially of Best American Short Stories) is rather similar–in some cases overlapping precisely–with many of the gravest and most frequently recurring concerns of readers and writers on this website. She finds the current state of the workshop stifling and wanting; she resists the “allure” of becoming a colony-aholic; she thinks contemporary realist fiction is too insular and impressed with itself. Who hasn’t heard those same grievances aired a hundred times on this site?
Roxane, I don’t think that the 9/11 “narrative” is irrelevant- it is an event that really happened, not a framing device, and it seems that Batuman would have us believe that it marked a signal moment for her. She is a New York City native of apparently Middle Eastern extraction, whose sense of literature clearly includes an inextricable element of the global and the political. These things in mind, her choice makes sense to me, and though it is the very antithesis of my own (experience, heritage, or choice), I felt like her thinking and her ultimate decision made sense, and resonated with me.
She wrote a very interesting piece for The New Yorker last year about the return of Harvard’s Bells to Russia, and the whole history of Russian bells. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/04/27/090427fa_fact_batuman
Nobody else thought this was interesting? I think she makes a highly compelling case, albeit one I remain unconvinced by. It seems to me like her general critique of contemporary mainstream literature (especially of Best American Short Stories) is rather similar–in some cases overlapping precisely–with many of the gravest and most frequently recurring concerns of readers and writers on this website. She finds the current state of the workshop stifling and wanting; she resists the “allure” of becoming a colony-aholic; she thinks contemporary realist fiction is too insular and impressed with itself. Who hasn’t heard those same grievances aired a hundred times on this site?
Roxane, I don’t think that the 9/11 “narrative” is irrelevant- it is an event that really happened, not a framing device, and it seems that Batuman would have us believe that it marked a signal moment for her. She is a New York City native of apparently Middle Eastern extraction, whose sense of literature clearly includes an inextricable element of the global and the political. These things in mind, her choice makes sense to me, and though it is the very antithesis of my own (experience, heritage, or choice), I felt like her thinking and her ultimate decision made sense, and resonated with me.
She wrote a very interesting piece for The New Yorker last year about the return of Harvard’s Bells to Russia, and the whole history of Russian bells. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/04/27/090427fa_fact_batuman
Not sure how she can find the state of the workshop or the colony wanting when she hasn’t taken a workshop or worked at a colony.
Not sure how she can find the state of the workshop or the colony wanting when she hasn’t taken a workshop or worked at a colony.
Kyle, I taught your “dog” flash fiction today and the students glowed. Don’t go to law school, man.
Kyle, I taught your “dog” flash fiction today and the students glowed. Don’t go to law school, man.
And I thought it was hilarious that she had trouble writing a novel and yet refused to take a workshop, because reading other people’s stuff seemed to be beneath her.
And I thought it was hilarious that she had trouble writing a novel and yet refused to take a workshop, because reading other people’s stuff seemed to be beneath her.
I only think the 9/11 narrative is irrelevant in the way she uses it so briefly while trying to….flesh out far greater significance.
I only think the 9/11 narrative is irrelevant in the way she uses it so briefly while trying to….flesh out far greater significance.
Cosigned.
Cosigned.
In reference to Justin’s post.
In reference to Justin’s post.
“Think of the time it must have taken for Tolstoy to write it!”
I think she has some legitimate concerns about workshops and contemporary short stories. In my experience, “dirty realism” stories definitely carried more weight than other schools of writing in my workshops, so that a story set in Montana about a drifter or a drug addict was the gold standard. I don’t think there is such a thing as a “workshop story.” If there is, I haven’t read one yet. The stories I read fall into one of two categories: good or bad. My biggest concern about workshops has always been that people write for the instructor or for the class, so that it leads to a kind of homogenous writing where everyone is essentially writing the same story. That said, workshops aren’t necessarily bad. Everyone has to find their own way, either through workshops or around them.
“Think of the time it must have taken for Tolstoy to write it!”
I think she has some legitimate concerns about workshops and contemporary short stories. In my experience, “dirty realism” stories definitely carried more weight than other schools of writing in my workshops, so that a story set in Montana about a drifter or a drug addict was the gold standard. I don’t think there is such a thing as a “workshop story.” If there is, I haven’t read one yet. The stories I read fall into one of two categories: good or bad. My biggest concern about workshops has always been that people write for the instructor or for the class, so that it leads to a kind of homogenous writing where everyone is essentially writing the same story. That said, workshops aren’t necessarily bad. Everyone has to find their own way, either through workshops or around them.
I don’t know, the idea of going into a group and having people say things like, “make sure your first sentence is good or the whole thing will suck” or “write your story backwards and then read it in a mirror” or “didn’t you read so and so’s book on writing? Jesus” … isn’t in line with my quest for being a better writer.
Not everyone has the same experiences in workshops, and they aren’t always benificial for everyone who participates. If that is what helps you grow as a writer, great. Show that. But all this hostility because you perceive that something you hold sacred is being attacked is ridiculous.
I don’t know, the idea of going into a group and having people say things like, “make sure your first sentence is good or the whole thing will suck” or “write your story backwards and then read it in a mirror” or “didn’t you read so and so’s book on writing? Jesus” … isn’t in line with my quest for being a better writer.
Not everyone has the same experiences in workshops, and they aren’t always benificial for everyone who participates. If that is what helps you grow as a writer, great. Show that. But all this hostility because you perceive that something you hold sacred is being attacked is ridiculous.
Justin-
Although she may share similar grievances, her solution, from what I can make out, is to retreat into academic literary criticism, hardly less insular. If anything, I think she trades one form of insularity for another. Derrida may have something interesting to say about names, but are fiction writers really unaware that names denote both a universal and a singular entity? Don’t fiction writers grapple with the individuality versus the universality of their characters/situations constantly? Maybe I have a problem with the term “mainstream contemporary literature.” Apart from the fact that I like many of the stories that get anthologized, and feel that they are by no means all of a piece, I think that many of them tend to be historically grounded in precisely the ways that she states contemporary workshop fiction isn’t. Take Rebecca Makkai’s story “the Worst You Ever Feel” from a couple of years ago. (Disclosure: I was in a workshop with Rebecca, not for this story). But the story draws upon music history and nonmusical history in equal measure, as well as playing with language and bending time in interesting ways. I could cite a bunch of other stories too…would we expect Salman Rushdie to choose stories that simply abide by the non-aesthetic of “avoiding bad habits”? Furthermore, although they are hardly hotbeds of surrealism, I can think of several examples of non-realist writing that make it into such anthologies, like Andrew Sean Greer’s “Darkness” or Brockmeier’s stuff. I think it’s the blanket dismissal that I find most alienating about her piece. Literary theory is just as easy to caricature as the writing of; ivory tower and writing colony trailer equipped with space heater can occupy the same ground.
Justin-
Although she may share similar grievances, her solution, from what I can make out, is to retreat into academic literary criticism, hardly less insular. If anything, I think she trades one form of insularity for another. Derrida may have something interesting to say about names, but are fiction writers really unaware that names denote both a universal and a singular entity? Don’t fiction writers grapple with the individuality versus the universality of their characters/situations constantly? Maybe I have a problem with the term “mainstream contemporary literature.” Apart from the fact that I like many of the stories that get anthologized, and feel that they are by no means all of a piece, I think that many of them tend to be historically grounded in precisely the ways that she states contemporary workshop fiction isn’t. Take Rebecca Makkai’s story “the Worst You Ever Feel” from a couple of years ago. (Disclosure: I was in a workshop with Rebecca, not for this story). But the story draws upon music history and nonmusical history in equal measure, as well as playing with language and bending time in interesting ways. I could cite a bunch of other stories too…would we expect Salman Rushdie to choose stories that simply abide by the non-aesthetic of “avoiding bad habits”? Furthermore, although they are hardly hotbeds of surrealism, I can think of several examples of non-realist writing that make it into such anthologies, like Andrew Sean Greer’s “Darkness” or Brockmeier’s stuff. I think it’s the blanket dismissal that I find most alienating about her piece. Literary theory is just as easy to caricature as the writing of; ivory tower and writing colony trailer equipped with space heater can occupy the same ground.
i bet nachos are beneath this woman too. not cool
i bet nachos are beneath this woman too. not cool
What the hell kind of workshop have you people been taking?
A workshop should give you feedback, you can take or leave. It’s something to think about. Then, and much more importantly, the instructor should be able to give you a ton of authors and book titles to investigate, both similar (in whatever way) and vastly dissimilar to your draft.
A workshop is just a small slice of an audience, not a way to write. It’s not an institution anymore than a book is an institution.
Contemporary short stories is like discussing creatures in an ocean. Sure, if she reads the exact same magazines or collections, she might see similarities. Quit reading the same things.
Anyway, I just think she dismisses a world she doesn’t even know. Her tone annoys me. As I said earlier, she gestures toward some valid points, but I just can’t handle her manner.
Here in academia, I need to go teach Erika Lopez in five. To student writers. Wonder what she thinks of Erika Lopez?
What the hell kind of workshop have you people been taking?
A workshop should give you feedback, you can take or leave. It’s something to think about. Then, and much more importantly, the instructor should be able to give you a ton of authors and book titles to investigate, both similar (in whatever way) and vastly dissimilar to your draft.
A workshop is just a small slice of an audience, not a way to write. It’s not an institution anymore than a book is an institution.
Contemporary short stories is like discussing creatures in an ocean. Sure, if she reads the exact same magazines or collections, she might see similarities. Quit reading the same things.
Anyway, I just think she dismisses a world she doesn’t even know. Her tone annoys me. As I said earlier, she gestures toward some valid points, but I just can’t handle her manner.
Here in academia, I need to go teach Erika Lopez in five. To student writers. Wonder what she thinks of Erika Lopez?
at a workshop zzzzipp went to in the mountains, the instructor got naked and instructed the class to roll around in honey “while reciting your story in a meaningful falsetto”. zzzzipp turned into a photon so quickly that he didn’t have time to blink. zzzippp’s eyes were so dry when he ceased being a photon; it’s important to blink before you become a photon. terrible experience all around.
at a workshop zzzzipp went to in the mountains, the instructor got naked and instructed the class to roll around in honey “while reciting your story in a meaningful falsetto”. zzzzipp turned into a photon so quickly that he didn’t have time to blink. zzzippp’s eyes were so dry when he ceased being a photon; it’s important to blink before you become a photon. terrible experience all around.
zzzzippp thinks workshops are good for spotting “blind spots” in writing. good to have a serious set of “outside” eyes if you don’t already have them. but the writing done in them can be bland. zzzzipp says “keep writing in a way that interests you and don’t think about the tastes of the group (if you can do it).”
I would’ve done it in a meaningless falsetto.
zzzzippp thinks workshops are good for spotting “blind spots” in writing. good to have a serious set of “outside” eyes if you don’t already have them. but the writing done in them can be bland. zzzzipp says “keep writing in a way that interests you and don’t think about the tastes of the group (if you can do it).”
I would’ve done it in a meaningless falsetto.
I just find her smug and incredibly naive. If she had taken a workshop and felt that way, fine. But maybe a workshop would have been beneficial to her.
a girl tried that. it only made him angry, stu
I just find her smug and incredibly naive. If she had taken a workshop and felt that way, fine. But maybe a workshop would have been beneficial to her.
a girl tried that. it only made him angry, stu
I think this person’s book looks interesting and I’m interested in her journey with Russian literature and thoughts on that as a scholar. As for this article…I both really agree and totally disagree with much of what she says.
I do agree with her that a lot of writer-types have a bizarre notion that academic study is not healthy to a writer and that you can’t learn anything from graduate school (although she seems to be saying something similar about a masters grad program). I think that notion is beyond silly. Academic study does not deter writing and many great writers have drawn from it. I also agree the constant talk of “craft” is unproductive and wrong. Fiction is an art, not a craft.
That said, I have a really hard time with anyone who wants to generalize from BASS. BASS is not representative of anything other than a certain style of mainstream literary fiction. Is it even the most respected in that regard? I’d think O’Henry would be. Either way, there is lots of awesome fiction that is published in mainstream venues (from Conjunctions to Tin House to even the New Yorker) that is not represented in BASS….to say nothing of indie venues.
Her very first comment on the subject of MFAs shows she doesn’t really know what she is talking about: “I did not consider getting a creative-writing M.F.A. because I knew they made you pay tuition and go to workshops.” There are a large number of MFA programs that cover all your expenses and even the ones with a reputation for costing a lot still tend to have some tuition waved spots.
Ultimately though she falls into the same trap that every anti-MFA person does:
She assumes that all the repetitive boring american fiction is the result of MFAs. It isn’t. As someone who has read for several different literary magazines I can promise you that the work sent in by non-MFA writers is just as derivative, cliche and stylistically boring as bad MFA fiction. In fact, it is probably more so. People ultimately learn to write from what they read, so if you read mainstream literary fiction and want to write it you start copying what other people do. If anything, in my personal MFA experience, the workshop pushed people to hone their own styles and stand out from other writers both in the class and outside of it.
It seems weird to look at contemporary American fiction and look at the interesting writers and not notice that many if not most of them went through MFA programs (George Saunders, Ben Marcus, David Foster Wallace, etc.) .
I think this person’s book looks interesting and I’m interested in her journey with Russian literature and thoughts on that as a scholar. As for this article…I both really agree and totally disagree with much of what she says.
I do agree with her that a lot of writer-types have a bizarre notion that academic study is not healthy to a writer and that you can’t learn anything from graduate school (although she seems to be saying something similar about a masters grad program). I think that notion is beyond silly. Academic study does not deter writing and many great writers have drawn from it. I also agree the constant talk of “craft” is unproductive and wrong. Fiction is an art, not a craft.
That said, I have a really hard time with anyone who wants to generalize from BASS. BASS is not representative of anything other than a certain style of mainstream literary fiction. Is it even the most respected in that regard? I’d think O’Henry would be. Either way, there is lots of awesome fiction that is published in mainstream venues (from Conjunctions to Tin House to even the New Yorker) that is not represented in BASS….to say nothing of indie venues.
Her very first comment on the subject of MFAs shows she doesn’t really know what she is talking about: “I did not consider getting a creative-writing M.F.A. because I knew they made you pay tuition and go to workshops.” There are a large number of MFA programs that cover all your expenses and even the ones with a reputation for costing a lot still tend to have some tuition waved spots.
Ultimately though she falls into the same trap that every anti-MFA person does:
She assumes that all the repetitive boring american fiction is the result of MFAs. It isn’t. As someone who has read for several different literary magazines I can promise you that the work sent in by non-MFA writers is just as derivative, cliche and stylistically boring as bad MFA fiction. In fact, it is probably more so. People ultimately learn to write from what they read, so if you read mainstream literary fiction and want to write it you start copying what other people do. If anything, in my personal MFA experience, the workshop pushed people to hone their own styles and stand out from other writers both in the class and outside of it.
It seems weird to look at contemporary American fiction and look at the interesting writers and not notice that many if not most of them went through MFA programs (George Saunders, Ben Marcus, David Foster Wallace, etc.) .
Makes sense. And what Tim said about insularity also makes sense.
Makes sense. And what Tim said about insularity also makes sense.
To clarify one thing I certainly dont’ mean the NYer isn’t represented by BASS, but rather that even magazines as big as Harper’s and the NYer have interesting work in them that doesn’t fit the style of a place like BASS.
To clarify one thing I certainly dont’ mean the NYer isn’t represented by BASS, but rather that even magazines as big as Harper’s and the NYer have interesting work in them that doesn’t fit the style of a place like BASS.
I think it is perfectly fine to generalize about mainstream American literary fiction, if your generalizations are correct. We have to generalize to discuss anything and I think it is fine to ponder what most people are reading. Still, generalizing from two issues of one anthology doesn’t seem like the best way.
I’d rather someone read one issue of Tin House, one issue of NOON, one issue of McSweeney’s and a handful of stories from harper’s and the New Yorker (or something along those lines) instead.
I think it is perfectly fine to generalize about mainstream American literary fiction, if your generalizations are correct. We have to generalize to discuss anything and I think it is fine to ponder what most people are reading. Still, generalizing from two issues of one anthology doesn’t seem like the best way.
I’d rather someone read one issue of Tin House, one issue of NOON, one issue of McSweeney’s and a handful of stories from harper’s and the New Yorker (or something along those lines) instead.
well-said, lincoln
well-said, lincoln
Lincoln,
Again, I guess I just don’t see that BASS (or O’Henry) has a singular aesthetic, and they rotate guest editors for precisely that reason, Salman Rushdie and Stephen King (in recent years) for BASS. George Saunders and Rick Moody and Denis Johnson and Melane Rae Thon and Mary Gaitskill and TC Boyle have all appeared more than once in these anthologies, just to cite a handful of instances. Yes, they could cast their nets wider, but I disagree with the contention that they are homogeneous and stale.
Batuman writes: “Contemporary short stories contain virtually no reference to any interesting work being done in the field over the past 20, 50, or 100 years; instead, middle-class women keep struggling with kleptomania, deviant siblings keep going in and out of institutions, people continue to be upset by power outages and natural disasters, and rueful writerly types go on hesitating about things.”
And more broadly, can someone please tell me what “interesting work being done in the field” she is talking about that she’d like to see reference to? Is she referring to postmodernism? Post-colonial theory? Saussurian linguistics? Meme theory? What? What exactly, for instance, would obviate the inclination of people to be upset by “natural disasters” and want to flesh out that emotional response in some form in fiction?
Lincoln,
Again, I guess I just don’t see that BASS (or O’Henry) has a singular aesthetic, and they rotate guest editors for precisely that reason, Salman Rushdie and Stephen King (in recent years) for BASS. George Saunders and Rick Moody and Denis Johnson and Melane Rae Thon and Mary Gaitskill and TC Boyle have all appeared more than once in these anthologies, just to cite a handful of instances. Yes, they could cast their nets wider, but I disagree with the contention that they are homogeneous and stale.
Batuman writes: “Contemporary short stories contain virtually no reference to any interesting work being done in the field over the past 20, 50, or 100 years; instead, middle-class women keep struggling with kleptomania, deviant siblings keep going in and out of institutions, people continue to be upset by power outages and natural disasters, and rueful writerly types go on hesitating about things.”
And more broadly, can someone please tell me what “interesting work being done in the field” she is talking about that she’d like to see reference to? Is she referring to postmodernism? Post-colonial theory? Saussurian linguistics? Meme theory? What? What exactly, for instance, would obviate the inclination of people to be upset by “natural disasters” and want to flesh out that emotional response in some form in fiction?
I don’t think BASS is homogeneous per se, but I think there is something about any “best of” competition that leads to homogeneity just by virtue of wanting every story to stand totally on its own as singular thing that could be held up as perhaps “the best” short story of that year. You shy away from certain types of stories that might be equally brilliant. For example, (and it is probably worth noting I haven’t read BASS in a few years) do stories under 5 pages ever appear in an anthology like BASS?
Either way we could probably agree that judging all contemporary American short fiction on a mere two years of one anthology is a bit lacking.
I don’t think BASS is homogeneous per se, but I think there is something about any “best of” competition that leads to homogeneity just by virtue of wanting every story to stand totally on its own as singular thing that could be held up as perhaps “the best” short story of that year. You shy away from certain types of stories that might be equally brilliant. For example, (and it is probably worth noting I haven’t read BASS in a few years) do stories under 5 pages ever appear in an anthology like BASS?
Either way we could probably agree that judging all contemporary American short fiction on a mere two years of one anthology is a bit lacking.
Although if I wanted to pick an argument I think I could back it up. BASS isn’t totally homogeneous at all, I agree, but it does tend towards a type of fiction. For example, glancing through the data some rad contemporary authors doing unique stuff appear on it such as David Foster Wallace, Lydia Davis and Barry Hannah. Yet each have only appeared once while Alice Munro has appeared 18 times and John Updike 9 times.
Nothing wrong with that, but a different anthology might give us different results.
Although if I wanted to pick an argument I think I could back it up. BASS isn’t totally homogeneous at all, I agree, but it does tend towards a type of fiction. For example, glancing through the data some rad contemporary authors doing unique stuff appear on it such as David Foster Wallace, Lydia Davis and Barry Hannah. Yet each have only appeared once while Alice Munro has appeared 18 times and John Updike 9 times.
Nothing wrong with that, but a different anthology might give us different results.
her problem is she’s expecting literature to reveal the meaning of life to her. she should relax and read some poems about octopussies.
her problem is she’s expecting literature to reveal the meaning of life to her. she should relax and read some poems about octopussies.
Lincoln-
Totally with you on the inadequacy of choosing a narrow sample.
As for the other argument, I’m looking at the spreadsheet that maybe you were looking at, and I think it could be argued back and forth. We could wind up sounding like a fourth-rate sports call-in radio show, debating whether the NFC East or the AFC West is the better division. For now I’m satisfied with establishing that there’s a debate to be had here, that it’s not wall-to-wall Updike and Co.
I’m curious to see how the Best of the Web anthology unfolds over time. Picking up your point about length, it would seem already that it is more amenable to such work given that so much strong shorter work appears on the web. I’m wondering how Dalkey’s Best European Fiction will reshape the argument, too. Kind of interesting that editor Aleksander Hemon was a three-timer in recent years in BASS. I dug a lot of the stories in the debut edition and wonder if it will make a dent in American writing.
Lincoln-
Totally with you on the inadequacy of choosing a narrow sample.
As for the other argument, I’m looking at the spreadsheet that maybe you were looking at, and I think it could be argued back and forth. We could wind up sounding like a fourth-rate sports call-in radio show, debating whether the NFC East or the AFC West is the better division. For now I’m satisfied with establishing that there’s a debate to be had here, that it’s not wall-to-wall Updike and Co.
I’m curious to see how the Best of the Web anthology unfolds over time. Picking up your point about length, it would seem already that it is more amenable to such work given that so much strong shorter work appears on the web. I’m wondering how Dalkey’s Best European Fiction will reshape the argument, too. Kind of interesting that editor Aleksander Hemon was a three-timer in recent years in BASS. I dug a lot of the stories in the debut edition and wonder if it will make a dent in American writing.
i second the law school notion.
avoid it like you would avoid a child molesting uncle.
i second the law school notion.
avoid it like you would avoid a child molesting uncle.
Dude, the AFC west sucks. Chargers are chokers and the bottom two teams are beyond awful!
;)
danke
Dude, the AFC west sucks. Chargers are chokers and the bottom two teams are beyond awful!
;)
danke
I’m winking but I’m also serious.
I’m winking but I’m also serious.
“Among her discoveries is that she has the wild soul of … an academic. ”
&
“Nobody in Anna Karenina was oppressed, as I was, by the tyranny of leisure.”
BAHAHAHAHAHA
“Among her discoveries is that she has the wild soul of … an academic. ”
&
“Nobody in Anna Karenina was oppressed, as I was, by the tyranny of leisure.”
BAHAHAHAHAHA
“A workshop should.”
Yes. So many things should.
“A workshop should.”
Yes. So many things should.
Nailed it.
Nailed it.
I thought some of this was pretty interesting–mostly the stuff about her background. I also want to read her book. I also am tired of the against/for discussion of graduate school, writing workshops, MFA programs, and all forms of higher education. If these things make you a better writer or aid you in achieving your goals in life, then fantastic. If not, don’t do them or feel free to bitch about them, but why do so many otherwise smart people think that their way is the only way? I don’t understand the whole conversation. Do what you want to do. And let other people do the same. The end.
I thought some of this was pretty interesting–mostly the stuff about her background. I also want to read her book. I also am tired of the against/for discussion of graduate school, writing workshops, MFA programs, and all forms of higher education. If these things make you a better writer or aid you in achieving your goals in life, then fantastic. If not, don’t do them or feel free to bitch about them, but why do so many otherwise smart people think that their way is the only way? I don’t understand the whole conversation. Do what you want to do. And let other people do the same. The end.
I’m thinking it’s time for an expansion team called the Chokers. In the vein of experimental sports briefly mentioned a couple of weeks ago, they would lose games but in such a way as to demonstrate continually that their skills exceed that of the opposition. Examples would be a fumble in which each teammate touches the ball exactly one time but eventually relinquishes the ball; a field goal kicker who reliably hits the goalposts with laser precision; a running back who runs in Fibonacci-sequenced patterns.
I’m thinking it’s time for an expansion team called the Chokers. In the vein of experimental sports briefly mentioned a couple of weeks ago, they would lose games but in such a way as to demonstrate continually that their skills exceed that of the opposition. Examples would be a fumble in which each teammate touches the ball exactly one time but eventually relinquishes the ball; a field goal kicker who reliably hits the goalposts with laser precision; a running back who runs in Fibonacci-sequenced patterns.
“In fact, I had no historical consciousness in those days, and no interest in acquiring one. It struck me as narrow-minded to privilege historical events, simply because things happened to have worked out that way. Why be a slave to the arbitrary truth? I didn’t care about truth; I cared about beauty. It took me many years—it took the experience of lived time—to realize that they really are the same thing.”
“In fact, I had no historical consciousness in those days, and no interest in acquiring one. It struck me as narrow-minded to privilege historical events, simply because things happened to have worked out that way. Why be a slave to the arbitrary truth? I didn’t care about truth; I cared about beauty. It took me many years—it took the experience of lived time—to realize that they really are the same thing.”
i kind of enjoyed it. sure, she is missing the boat on stuff, the writing that is available is way too broad to put into these narrow generalizations, but i like the love she has of her job, the beauty she finds in it. that comes across to me nicely.
i kind of enjoyed it. sure, she is missing the boat on stuff, the writing that is available is way too broad to put into these narrow generalizations, but i like the love she has of her job, the beauty she finds in it. that comes across to me nicely.
I also enjoyed it.
I viewed the piece more as a reader writing about writing than a writer writing about writing.
I also enjoyed it.
I viewed the piece more as a reader writing about writing than a writer writing about writing.
I think the 9/11 reference could have been edited out. The point of the anecdote is she broke her wing and this caused her to reevaluate her direction, and she then went back to Stanford. The reference has a tacked-on feel. But this is a quibble. I liked this article overall and think she brings us some excellent points – from a reader’s perspective – that are worth consideration.
I think the 9/11 reference could have been edited out. The point of the anecdote is she broke her wing and this caused her to reevaluate her direction, and she then went back to Stanford. The reference has a tacked-on feel. But this is a quibble. I liked this article overall and think she brings us some excellent points – from a reader’s perspective – that are worth consideration.
Sorry…brings uP.
Sorry…brings uP.
I found the 9/11 reference to be too self-serving, without any depth, (a loaded throw-away, in a sense) and therefore unsavory to me, in an article that on the whole read as way too self-serving. It was not the topic(s) of the piece that I found off-putting or her opinions and perspectives, but her tone (did I say self-serving?)
I found the 9/11 reference to be too self-serving, without any depth, (a loaded throw-away, in a sense) and therefore unsavory to me, in an article that on the whole read as way too self-serving. It was not the topic(s) of the piece that I found off-putting or her opinions and perspectives, but her tone (did I say self-serving?)
I don’t understand why it is The End of the conversation to discuss academia versus not. You’d be surprised by how many writers wonder about this issue. Maybe it’s because I work with undergrad students writers for a living, but they seriously want places to research this key question. Should they work a job and just read and write? Should they go the academic route and find a writing community that way, or Time (really what you are getting), etc.
These writers need resources to research their options. The Chronicle is a resource. HTML is, blogs, on and on. There’s no right answer, obviously, but the discussion is necessary. A lot of necessary political, artistic, religious, on and on discussions get rehashed. There probably is a reason.
So I say forum on.
I don’t understand why it is The End of the conversation to discuss academia versus not. You’d be surprised by how many writers wonder about this issue. Maybe it’s because I work with undergrad students writers for a living, but they seriously want places to research this key question. Should they work a job and just read and write? Should they go the academic route and find a writing community that way, or Time (really what you are getting), etc.
These writers need resources to research their options. The Chronicle is a resource. HTML is, blogs, on and on. There’s no right answer, obviously, but the discussion is necessary. A lot of necessary political, artistic, religious, on and on discussions get rehashed. There probably is a reason.
So I say forum on.
it’s tired when it’s not nuanced. when people on either side of the fence are so quick to jump to blanket criticism/support.
“Another annoying person at Chronicle”
“What the hell kind of workshop have you people been taking?”
i live in the real world, i don’t know about you. i’m in an mfa. i’m also teaching. tutoring. grad students, not even undergrads. does that mean i bow down to the mfa/workshop system? does that mean if people criticize it, i automatically jump in and start telling them that their experiences are ludicrous? i don’t agree with everything this writer says but i don’t dismiss it all either.
“Again, I guess I just don’t see that BASS (or O’Henry) has a singular aesthetic, and they rotate guest editors for precisely that reason”
c’mon tim. o’henry has a single editor who picks all the stories and the guest panel is simply there as adornment. they all then write a short essay about which story they liked best. bass has a guest judge but the larger stack is still culled by a single editor, heidi pitlor. and of course the judging doesn’t happen in a vacuum, the stories from the new yorker and harper’s and larger mags are probably still fresh in the judge’s mind with the respective writer’s name attached. within a particular issue, there might not be a homogenous style, but within the larger oeuvre, there definitely is. i was lucky enough to attend a university that had the entire collection of bass going back to the very first in 1915 and read all them shits. even up until the 80s the process wasn’t judged blindly. ray carver picked a story by his wife tess gallagher. but more recently there’s a very definite echo from year to year. it’s why alice munro and tc boyle are goddamn staples in that shit. nothing wrong with that, but it’s many readers only foray into short stories within a given year and i wish bass would shake shit up a little.
it’s tired when it’s not nuanced. when people on either side of the fence are so quick to jump to blanket criticism/support.
“Another annoying person at Chronicle”
“What the hell kind of workshop have you people been taking?”
i live in the real world, i don’t know about you. i’m in an mfa. i’m also teaching. tutoring. grad students, not even undergrads. does that mean i bow down to the mfa/workshop system? does that mean if people criticize it, i automatically jump in and start telling them that their experiences are ludicrous? i don’t agree with everything this writer says but i don’t dismiss it all either.
“Again, I guess I just don’t see that BASS (or O’Henry) has a singular aesthetic, and they rotate guest editors for precisely that reason”
c’mon tim. o’henry has a single editor who picks all the stories and the guest panel is simply there as adornment. they all then write a short essay about which story they liked best. bass has a guest judge but the larger stack is still culled by a single editor, heidi pitlor. and of course the judging doesn’t happen in a vacuum, the stories from the new yorker and harper’s and larger mags are probably still fresh in the judge’s mind with the respective writer’s name attached. within a particular issue, there might not be a homogenous style, but within the larger oeuvre, there definitely is. i was lucky enough to attend a university that had the entire collection of bass going back to the very first in 1915 and read all them shits. even up until the 80s the process wasn’t judged blindly. ray carver picked a story by his wife tess gallagher. but more recently there’s a very definite echo from year to year. it’s why alice munro and tc boyle are goddamn staples in that shit. nothing wrong with that, but it’s many readers only foray into short stories within a given year and i wish bass would shake shit up a little.
One thing that surprised me in this discussion (and in some of the reader comments below the Chronicle piece itself) is the idea that her “tone” is superior, smug, conceited, self-satisfied, etc. etc.
I didn’t read it this way. Others obviously did. I think the subject of her piece does require a level of self-focus; it could have been a lot more smug, if you thought that it was. If anyone here wrote about how their personal reading has informed career and life decisions (or how it informed a decision just like the one she made), it could easily be written off as vainglorious etc. – even if you chose another route.
There is a lot of bad nonfiction writing available everywhere with writers veering into the self-serving and the self-glorifying, but I didn’t get that sense with Batuman’s piece. What she did, I think, was hit all the right sore spots for a few readers.
One thing that surprised me in this discussion (and in some of the reader comments below the Chronicle piece itself) is the idea that her “tone” is superior, smug, conceited, self-satisfied, etc. etc.
I didn’t read it this way. Others obviously did. I think the subject of her piece does require a level of self-focus; it could have been a lot more smug, if you thought that it was. If anyone here wrote about how their personal reading has informed career and life decisions (or how it informed a decision just like the one she made), it could easily be written off as vainglorious etc. – even if you chose another route.
There is a lot of bad nonfiction writing available everywhere with writers veering into the self-serving and the self-glorifying, but I didn’t get that sense with Batuman’s piece. What she did, I think, was hit all the right sore spots for a few readers.
In general Chronicle often strikes me as a toxic echo chamber of academic smugitude laid over top of an abyss of crippling insecurity. That said, I think this piece is interesting because it shows the path of a person who does not do what so many of us have done, and it’s valuable for being a different story.
I do think it’s weird to write about Derrida while at the same time repeating that old binary between the academic and creative. But I get where that idea comes from. I sometimes feel it here too, in this phd program which supposedly combines the two.
In general Chronicle often strikes me as a toxic echo chamber of academic smugitude laid over top of an abyss of crippling insecurity. That said, I think this piece is interesting because it shows the path of a person who does not do what so many of us have done, and it’s valuable for being a different story.
I do think it’s weird to write about Derrida while at the same time repeating that old binary between the academic and creative. But I get where that idea comes from. I sometimes feel it here too, in this phd program which supposedly combines the two.
Gene,
Of course they could shake things up more, you’re right; I think that’s what they’ve done in recent years by bringing folks like King and Rushdie aboard. Even Michael Chabon, who edited one of the two editions that Batuman glanced at for her article, brought in some pretty unusual choices, from Dennis Lehane to Cory Doctorow’s online retake on “Ender’s Game” and a pretty long story by Kelly Link from Conjunctions. And I guess that’s my point initially in response to the article. The conclusions she draws from looking at these two editions about the contemporary short story are meager and don’t add up to a coherent critique: there are a lot of concrete details out of the gate, the authors are hung up on establishing names right away (?), they look like they were lipogrammatic–which would make them experimental, I guess–they “subverted expectations”–as if that’s a bad thing. She then connects this somehow with a Puritanical ethos of creative writing programs. If she had given an interesting, credible critique of these volumes, and shown how this reflects a fundamental flaw in the workshop culture, I’m all ears. But she didn’t. And this, along with the trailers on the Cape, is the cornerstone of her argument. You, at least, have done your homework; you’ve read the stories and have a sense of the history and larger trajectory.
The oddest thing about her article to me is the idea of progress, that literature should’ve somehow made progress, that criticism is somehow better off because it is “cumulative,” adding to the store of human knowledge. This is sort of ironic, because literature departments are often caricatured by scientists for being a department that doesn’t make progress, i.e. doesn’t contribute to the sum of human knowledge in the same way that other disciplines do. Without taking a stand on this, I’m just surprised that she would expect progress in the arts. Yes, people do continue to get upset about power outages and natural disasters, and ought to be coming up with new and fresh ways to represent that.
Gene,
Of course they could shake things up more, you’re right; I think that’s what they’ve done in recent years by bringing folks like King and Rushdie aboard. Even Michael Chabon, who edited one of the two editions that Batuman glanced at for her article, brought in some pretty unusual choices, from Dennis Lehane to Cory Doctorow’s online retake on “Ender’s Game” and a pretty long story by Kelly Link from Conjunctions. And I guess that’s my point initially in response to the article. The conclusions she draws from looking at these two editions about the contemporary short story are meager and don’t add up to a coherent critique: there are a lot of concrete details out of the gate, the authors are hung up on establishing names right away (?), they look like they were lipogrammatic–which would make them experimental, I guess–they “subverted expectations”–as if that’s a bad thing. She then connects this somehow with a Puritanical ethos of creative writing programs. If she had given an interesting, credible critique of these volumes, and shown how this reflects a fundamental flaw in the workshop culture, I’m all ears. But she didn’t. And this, along with the trailers on the Cape, is the cornerstone of her argument. You, at least, have done your homework; you’ve read the stories and have a sense of the history and larger trajectory.
The oddest thing about her article to me is the idea of progress, that literature should’ve somehow made progress, that criticism is somehow better off because it is “cumulative,” adding to the store of human knowledge. This is sort of ironic, because literature departments are often caricatured by scientists for being a department that doesn’t make progress, i.e. doesn’t contribute to the sum of human knowledge in the same way that other disciplines do. Without taking a stand on this, I’m just surprised that she would expect progress in the arts. Yes, people do continue to get upset about power outages and natural disasters, and ought to be coming up with new and fresh ways to represent that.
tim i agree completely with your assessment of batuman’s findings based solely upon two copies of bass. i was talking about bass in general, not necessarily through the filter of the article, which is a whole other issue in and of itself.
that being said, do you really feel like bringing in people like alice sebold, stephen king, and rushdie are shaking things up? i feel like it’s an obvious attempt to sell books by slapdashing a big name on the cover. i mostly wish they’d pick someone as editor who actually traffics heavily in the short story form. they haven’t done that since lorrie moore. just a minor thing that seems to make sense to me. hell, have alice munro do it. george saunders. amy hempel.
tim i agree completely with your assessment of batuman’s findings based solely upon two copies of bass. i was talking about bass in general, not necessarily through the filter of the article, which is a whole other issue in and of itself.
that being said, do you really feel like bringing in people like alice sebold, stephen king, and rushdie are shaking things up? i feel like it’s an obvious attempt to sell books by slapdashing a big name on the cover. i mostly wish they’d pick someone as editor who actually traffics heavily in the short story form. they haven’t done that since lorrie moore. just a minor thing that seems to make sense to me. hell, have alice munro do it. george saunders. amy hempel.
Gene,
I think King and Rushdie were attempts to branch away from mainstream realism and in the former case to dip into genre-inflection, and both attempts were pretty successful in my view. Alice Sebold…egh….but I haven’t read that one. As for your suggestions for editors, hell yes. And as for your earlier point about the O’Henry’s, they really ought to get those judges more involved, actually weighing in on the final selections. Maybe a story has to be chosen by two out of three.
[…] We Live Today. Dwight Garner discusses Elif Batuman’s The Possessed–remember this book? We all flipped out over the excerpt that was published at the Chronicle of Higher Education a few weeks ago. You […]