February 16th, 2010 / 2:37 pm
Snippets
Snippets
Blake Butler—
How many drafts, on average, do you go through between the first “full” version and the final thing you consider publishable or done? Does this number increase or decrease with longer works?
5-6 is normal for me.
It increases with longer works.
5-6 is normal for me.
It increases with longer works.
i wish I knew because I have sent things to publishers and redid them and redid them while they are being reviewed. This makes me feel like an ass. But I can’t quit opening the doc and revising, ever. So. I wish someone would have me stop, actually.
i wish I knew because I have sent things to publishers and redid them and redid them while they are being reviewed. This makes me feel like an ass. But I can’t quit opening the doc and revising, ever. So. I wish someone would have me stop, actually.
I do like three drafts to get to a first draft, then another couple passes for major revisions in some cases and polish in others. Sometimes I toss the whole thing out and do it again a year later, but different. Longer stuff gets way more drafts, these days, though that wasn’t always true. The novel I’m working on now is half done and some parts have already been through like eight drafts.
I do like three drafts to get to a first draft, then another couple passes for major revisions in some cases and polish in others. Sometimes I toss the whole thing out and do it again a year later, but different. Longer stuff gets way more drafts, these days, though that wasn’t always true. The novel I’m working on now is half done and some parts have already been through like eight drafts.
seriously? Anything more than 1000 words or so gets 30-40 drafts at least. Something really short doesn’t get very many really.
seriously? Anything more than 1000 words or so gets 30-40 drafts at least. Something really short doesn’t get very many really.
One or two. I don’t do a whole lot of drafting. What you see is generally my first pass. I understand the importance of drafting etc etc, etc but it is simply not my process. Sometimes I will tinker with a story after I’ve sent it out, like Sean mentions but I am not that writer who belabors her work much. I did recently join a writer’s workshop so maybe this will change.
One or two. I don’t do a whole lot of drafting. What you see is generally my first pass. I understand the importance of drafting etc etc, etc but it is simply not my process. Sometimes I will tinker with a story after I’ve sent it out, like Sean mentions but I am not that writer who belabors her work much. I did recently join a writer’s workshop so maybe this will change.
I’m with Brandi. I’m shocked to see single digits here! And yes, more revisions if longer.
i absolutely don’t understand 30-40 drafts
maybe if each time i change a word or order or something i count it as a new “draft” would i near 20
generally, i think my pieces undergo an average of 2.5 drafts. that’s being generous.
if something doesn’t come out right the first time, i put it away in a folder and will rewrite it heavily at some point.
could just be a terrible and un-dedicated writer. i’m not sure
I’m with Brandi. I’m shocked to see single digits here! And yes, more revisions if longer.
i absolutely don’t understand 30-40 drafts
maybe if each time i change a word or order or something i count it as a new “draft” would i near 20
generally, i think my pieces undergo an average of 2.5 drafts. that’s being generous.
if something doesn’t come out right the first time, i put it away in a folder and will rewrite it heavily at some point.
could just be a terrible and un-dedicated writer. i’m not sure
I wrote this comment 23 times. And still couldn’t get it right.
I wrote this comment 23 times. And still couldn’t get it right.
I would have to say two or three drafts, then a final polish or two.
Then another final polish, then a deconstruct,
then another two or three drafts,
then a final polish
or two.
I would have to say two or three drafts, then a final polish or two.
Then another final polish, then a deconstruct,
then another two or three drafts,
then a final polish
or two.
I disagree, Brad. That comment feels very right to me. I’m impressed it only took 23 revisions.
I disagree, Brad. That comment feels very right to me. I’m impressed it only took 23 revisions.
I am not talented enough to write anything in a handful of drafts. After five or six drafts I’m still looking at what I wrote thinking, “that’s pretty boring” and “maybe I’ll cut everything except that last paragraph.”
I am not talented enough to write anything in a handful of drafts. After five or six drafts I’m still looking at what I wrote thinking, “that’s pretty boring” and “maybe I’ll cut everything except that last paragraph.”
to those who write in 1-3 drafts, i’m curious: how do you judge when you’ve written something you want to share? you just know by remembering how it felt to write it? do you look at it again as more time passes?
to those who write in 1-3 drafts, i’m curious: how do you judge when you’ve written something you want to share? you just know by remembering how it felt to write it? do you look at it again as more time passes?
i’m with you on that one.
i’m with you on that one.
Generally 3-4, though each of those drafts have been opened and tinkered with any number of times.
I’d be interested in how people define a “draft.” My own definition seems to be in constant flux, especially dependent on lenth. I read on Big Other awhile ago how Matt Bell starts a whole new document every time he opens a piece to work on. I’ve started something of a hybrid of that method and my former method.
I’ll start a new document any time I’ve made significant changes to a work, especially to what is already on the page. But, if I just open up a draft and turn the wrench a couple times, I usually won’t consider a new document draft necessary.
Generally 3-4, though each of those drafts have been opened and tinkered with any number of times.
I’d be interested in how people define a “draft.” My own definition seems to be in constant flux, especially dependent on lenth. I read on Big Other awhile ago how Matt Bell starts a whole new document every time he opens a piece to work on. I’ve started something of a hybrid of that method and my former method.
I’ll start a new document any time I’ve made significant changes to a work, especially to what is already on the page. But, if I just open up a draft and turn the wrench a couple times, I usually won’t consider a new document draft necessary.
This is really impressive, especially considering the quality of your work.
This is really impressive, especially considering the quality of your work.
In a recent discussion on another to-go-unnamed blog, it was discovered that people have a pretty wide range of interpretations as to what a “draft” is. How much has to change in the manuscript before the outcome is considered a new draft? Two sentences? A whole new end? I think this ambiguity partially accounts for some of the variety in the answers above.
In a recent discussion on another to-go-unnamed blog, it was discovered that people have a pretty wide range of interpretations as to what a “draft” is. How much has to change in the manuscript before the outcome is considered a new draft? Two sentences? A whole new end? I think this ambiguity partially accounts for some of the variety in the answers above.
i think a draft would be considered reading through the whole work and making changes as you go. revising. cleaning. perhaps, in some a major shift, but not necessarily. the examination of the sentences and the structure and thereafter the movement of the whole is i think the point.
i think a draft would be considered reading through the whole work and making changes as you go. revising. cleaning. perhaps, in some a major shift, but not necessarily. the examination of the sentences and the structure and thereafter the movement of the whole is i think the point.
So you could conceivably change nothing and arrive at a new draft? We’re entering Borgesian territory.
So you could conceivably change nothing and arrive at a new draft? We’re entering Borgesian territory.
Generally I go by a combination of how I felt writing it and what my wife thinks. Definitely wait a while for the last revision. Generally if something sucks no amount of revision can save it, though — means I got the basic concept all wrong.
Generally I go by a combination of how I felt writing it and what my wife thinks. Definitely wait a while for the last revision. Generally if something sucks no amount of revision can save it, though — means I got the basic concept all wrong.
when you read through and make no changes that is when the draft becomes the work. to me.
though i think any read through can produce changes. it’s when you decide to stop.
when you read through and make no changes that is when the draft becomes the work. to me.
though i think any read through can produce changes. it’s when you decide to stop.
I think for longer works, I’ll read and edit the entire thing through X number of times, but I’ll read and edit parts of it way more, so it gets tricky knowing what to call a draft. And when I’m making smaller edits, I don’t rename the file, so essentially I’m making changes to a draft, not making a new draft.
I think for longer works, I’ll read and edit the entire thing through X number of times, but I’ll read and edit parts of it way more, so it gets tricky knowing what to call a draft. And when I’m making smaller edits, I don’t rename the file, so essentially I’m making changes to a draft, not making a new draft.
Ha!
Ha!
I’m also in the 5-6 drafts camp for most short stories. Tough to say on longer works — I have a novel that’s effectively dead right now that went through about three drafts, but also had five false starts over the course of a few years. Working on a novella/short novel now where the first draft feels a lot more “complete”, but it’s also a revision of a work I started and restarted a few times years ago. (And I have no idea whether that sense of completeness will persist once I finish this draft; I tend to doubt it.)
I’m also in the 5-6 drafts camp for most short stories. Tough to say on longer works — I have a novel that’s effectively dead right now that went through about three drafts, but also had five false starts over the course of a few years. Working on a novella/short novel now where the first draft feels a lot more “complete”, but it’s also a revision of a work I started and restarted a few times years ago. (And I have no idea whether that sense of completeness will persist once I finish this draft; I tend to doubt it.)
If I read something I’ve written and I feel a certain rush (however subjective that rush is) I feel comfortable sending it out into the world. I should say that one caveat to my lack of drafting is that I do a TON of pre-writing in my head for a few days before I actually sit down to write.
If I read something I’ve written and I feel a certain rush (however subjective that rush is) I feel comfortable sending it out into the world. I should say that one caveat to my lack of drafting is that I do a TON of pre-writing in my head for a few days before I actually sit down to write.
Usually, two. Unless you count the final proofread, then three. And maybe another one if the editor asks for rewrites. I write very slowly.
Usually, two. Unless you count the final proofread, then three. And maybe another one if the editor asks for rewrites. I write very slowly.
I like this thread. Sometimes my first draft is fine as is, and sometimes a single poem gets reworked 30 times. Sometimes I send out the not-final drafts. Sometimes those get published. There are about four different drafts of a story I once wrote about bees (or moths, depending) floating around out there; one’s in Serendipity, another’s in Quick Fiction, another’s in Drunken Boat, and another’s in Pank.
I like this thread. Sometimes my first draft is fine as is, and sometimes a single poem gets reworked 30 times. Sometimes I send out the not-final drafts. Sometimes those get published. There are about four different drafts of a story I once wrote about bees (or moths, depending) floating around out there; one’s in Serendipity, another’s in Quick Fiction, another’s in Drunken Boat, and another’s in Pank.
1-30 drafts. I like it better when it’s closer to 1. But sometimes it has to be closer to 30.
1-30 drafts. I like it better when it’s closer to 1. But sometimes it has to be closer to 30.
I revise a lot as I write. Skipping back to a previous paragraph and changing something. I think that helps cut down the number of drafts. Plus, if I read through and change a single sentence, I don’t consider that a new draft; just a minor edit. If I counted all of those my number would go up. I still never hit 40, though
I revise a lot as I write. Skipping back to a previous paragraph and changing something. I think that helps cut down the number of drafts. Plus, if I read through and change a single sentence, I don’t consider that a new draft; just a minor edit. If I counted all of those my number would go up. I still never hit 40, though
In my own work, it tends to be unofficial percentages of things edited. If I chance a few words or a sentence in a flash or poem, there’s much more weight on that edit than were I to change the same number of words in a longer piece.
Though, now that I say that out loud/write it down here, it makes me want to write longer works so cohesive at a word-level that there’s no difference between longer and shorter works.
change* a few words
In my own work, it tends to be unofficial percentages of things edited. If I chance a few words or a sentence in a flash or poem, there’s much more weight on that edit than were I to change the same number of words in a longer piece.
Though, now that I say that out loud/write it down here, it makes me want to write longer works so cohesive at a word-level that there’s no difference between longer and shorter works.
change* a few words
Not to undermine the specificity of your thread, Blake, but don’t you think an equally interesting question is where the neurosis (not necessarily yours) writers harbour about other writers’ number of edits comes from. This question makes me want to ask writers how far the work has been preconceived before its actual written conception, and how willing a writer is able to ignore an inner critic declaring that a work is rubbish as they write it. This might be a loose gauge as to the kind of editing that comes after, eg the writer freely-associating a chapter might find more involuntary problems in their work than the planner, and vice versa. Then again, the writer with the louder inner-critic might be editing out material that we might find to be gold. I like that Roxane has approached this question with what seems to be just as important a question: the works preconception. Do the writers who revise 30-40 times (meaning a revision of the whole text and the consequent renovation of it) have any time to write new work? Do you have sit-down jobs or stand-up ones?
Not to undermine the specificity of your thread, Blake, but don’t you think an equally interesting question is where the neurosis (not necessarily yours) writers harbour about other writers’ number of edits comes from. This question makes me want to ask writers how far the work has been preconceived before its actual written conception, and how willing a writer is able to ignore an inner critic declaring that a work is rubbish as they write it. This might be a loose gauge as to the kind of editing that comes after, eg the writer freely-associating a chapter might find more involuntary problems in their work than the planner, and vice versa. Then again, the writer with the louder inner-critic might be editing out material that we might find to be gold. I like that Roxane has approached this question with what seems to be just as important a question: the works preconception. Do the writers who revise 30-40 times (meaning a revision of the whole text and the consequent renovation of it) have any time to write new work? Do you have sit-down jobs or stand-up ones?
Yours is a really interesting comment, Corey. I’ve often found that writers are intensely concerned not only with their writing process but the writing process of others and that there is a certain hierarchy–the more you draft, the better, the truer a writer you are. I don’t know that any one person has the write answer but I also feel there are many different, equally valid approaches we can bring to this thing called writing.
Or the right answer.
Yours is a really interesting comment, Corey. I’ve often found that writers are intensely concerned not only with their writing process but the writing process of others and that there is a certain hierarchy–the more you draft, the better, the truer a writer you are. I don’t know that any one person has the write answer but I also feel there are many different, equally valid approaches we can bring to this thing called writing.
Or the right answer.
If the first draft was typed, I’ll make a whole lot of bracketed comments inside sentences and then write the second draft longhand. To revise this, I’ll open up a blank document, resize both docs to half the size of the screen and place the two next to each other. Then I’ll type the new draft onto the new document. That’s usually how I create a third draft.
If I get that far into a revision process, it usually lets me know that I actually like the piece.
The rest is just a successive series of printing out, reading aloud, and sending to my friend to see what he thinks.
If the first draft was typed, I’ll make a whole lot of bracketed comments inside sentences and then write the second draft longhand. To revise this, I’ll open up a blank document, resize both docs to half the size of the screen and place the two next to each other. Then I’ll type the new draft onto the new document. That’s usually how I create a third draft.
If I get that far into a revision process, it usually lets me know that I actually like the piece.
The rest is just a successive series of printing out, reading aloud, and sending to my friend to see what he thinks.
Me, too. In fact, I draft to death. Pretty much every time I look at a piece I’m tinkering with it. Easily double-digits.
Me, too. In fact, I draft to death. Pretty much every time I look at a piece I’m tinkering with it. Easily double-digits.
I tend to rewrite as I write so that my first draft may have had paragraphs rewritten a dozen ties.
Thus, normally only a few if indeed more than one.
Of course, what counts as a draft? I frequently will slowly write a short piece and it will be 90% done in one draft and then I go back and tweak slightly. Is that a new draft?
I tend to rewrite as I write so that my first draft may have had paragraphs rewritten a dozen ties.
Thus, normally only a few if indeed more than one.
Of course, what counts as a draft? I frequently will slowly write a short piece and it will be 90% done in one draft and then I go back and tweak slightly. Is that a new draft?
90% is wrong. I’d call changing 10% a new draft. Let’s go more with 95-98%.
90% is wrong. I’d call changing 10% a new draft. Let’s go more with 95-98%.
i’m going to revise brad green to bard genre.
i’m going to revise brad green to bard genre.
decreases. proportionally.
decreases. proportionally.
I agree that this tacit hierarchy seems to be prevalent.
I agree that this tacit hierarchy seems to be prevalent.
When I am deep into something I do not turn of my computer. I put it to sleep but I never close the document. I will go use a web browser for a while but all the time that document is there in the background.
I do this until I have a complete first draft, which may be read 10-50 times over the course of getting it on the page. Then I save as a new document “title v2.0″ and do it again. Sometimes a week goes by between version 1 and 2, sometimes a day, sometimes months. But v2.0 is a major rewrite almost always. And in the course of doing that rewrite I will go through it line by line for a few hours. Then the next day I will pick up where I left off the day before and keep going but also go back and read sections or paragraphs or pages and do them over again, sort of on a whim.
When v2.0 is done, I go through it again and, depending on how much work it takes, it ends up being v2.1 or v2.5. I have never gone to v3.0, but that is because by the time it hits v2.1 I have read and tinkered with every line fifty times at least.
I am also one of those writers with two 24” monitors so I can see four pages at a time (zoomed to 150% because of my shitty eyesight). I like to be surrounded by my work. I think if I had eight monitors I would be happy. I could make a little circle of screens and just spin around in my chair instead of scrolling. It would be glorious.
The length of the work doesn’t seem to matter, except that with longer pieces I usually have less specific ideas about where the story is going to go from the start, so those spots have to be tended to with more care. Maybe I do work them a little harder. Though on the flip side, with short pieces there’s so much concern about economy of words that I am always looking for that one word that isn’t necessary, that’s slowing things down, etc.
When I am deep into something I do not turn of my computer. I put it to sleep but I never close the document. I will go use a web browser for a while but all the time that document is there in the background.
I do this until I have a complete first draft, which may be read 10-50 times over the course of getting it on the page. Then I save as a new document “title v2.0″ and do it again. Sometimes a week goes by between version 1 and 2, sometimes a day, sometimes months. But v2.0 is a major rewrite almost always. And in the course of doing that rewrite I will go through it line by line for a few hours. Then the next day I will pick up where I left off the day before and keep going but also go back and read sections or paragraphs or pages and do them over again, sort of on a whim.
When v2.0 is done, I go through it again and, depending on how much work it takes, it ends up being v2.1 or v2.5. I have never gone to v3.0, but that is because by the time it hits v2.1 I have read and tinkered with every line fifty times at least.
I am also one of those writers with two 24” monitors so I can see four pages at a time (zoomed to 150% because of my shitty eyesight). I like to be surrounded by my work. I think if I had eight monitors I would be happy. I could make a little circle of screens and just spin around in my chair instead of scrolling. It would be glorious.
The length of the work doesn’t seem to matter, except that with longer pieces I usually have less specific ideas about where the story is going to go from the start, so those spots have to be tended to with more care. Maybe I do work them a little harder. Though on the flip side, with short pieces there’s so much concern about economy of words that I am always looking for that one word that isn’t necessary, that’s slowing things down, etc.
Everything I’ve written that anyone (including myself) has ever liked has been two drafts or less. I’ve hammered on things for longer, but ultimately I’ve always thrown them out. I guess I’m sort of a “it’s either good or it’s bad” kind of guy.
Everything I’ve written that anyone (including myself) has ever liked has been two drafts or less. I’ve hammered on things for longer, but ultimately I’ve always thrown them out. I guess I’m sort of a “it’s either good or it’s bad” kind of guy.
Yes. One instructor was quick to mention that he would do like sixty drafts, write hundreds of thousands of words he had no intention of using, etc. Of course his wife does very few drafts and he seemed to think that was okay for her, but the goal seems to be to write it over as many times as you can, changing as much as you can based on the feedback of others, who always know better.
Yes. One instructor was quick to mention that he would do like sixty drafts, write hundreds of thousands of words he had no intention of using, etc. Of course his wife does very few drafts and he seemed to think that was okay for her, but the goal seems to be to write it over as many times as you can, changing as much as you can based on the feedback of others, who always know better.
Sometimes to comes without draft, sometimes it need dozens and dozens of drafts, sometimes it remains a draft.
Sometimes to comes without draft, sometimes it need dozens and dozens of drafts, sometimes it remains a draft.
two forties and a blunt
two forties and a blunt
first thought best thought is why i’m not a very good writer. or why i’m a journalist.
first thought best thought is why i’m not a very good writer. or why i’m a journalist.
Depends on the story, but I’m an experienced writer so I’m comfortable with my own process, like most of us posting on this thread
As someone who teaches fiction to undergrads, I’m more interested in how revision is taught to younger writers. Too often it’s taught in workshops as the be-end-all of writing, so that you have young writers wasting a bunch of time revising crap and then using revision as a crutch not to write new material. “If I revise this crappy story for the next 5 years, I’ll have a work of brilliance.”
Workshop instructors need to teach revision, but they also need to teach students when to throw a story in the fire and start something else.
Depends on the story, but I’m an experienced writer so I’m comfortable with my own process, like most of us posting on this thread
As someone who teaches fiction to undergrads, I’m more interested in how revision is taught to younger writers. Too often it’s taught in workshops as the be-end-all of writing, so that you have young writers wasting a bunch of time revising crap and then using revision as a crutch not to write new material. “If I revise this crappy story for the next 5 years, I’ll have a work of brilliance.”
Workshop instructors need to teach revision, but they also need to teach students when to throw a story in the fire and start something else.
this RIGHT HERE
this RIGHT HERE
This is nice to read. I am in the middle of draft #15-ish (of a 90k word novel), and sometimes have asked myself, does it have to be this way? Around draft #7, I was feeling cocky and sure – this is it. 8 drafts later, it’s so much better. But with another 9 drafts, would it be even mo’ better than that? I’m starting to see it this way. Michaelangelo would look at a rough piece of marble and see a form hiding inside of it. He chipped away at the stone, to reveal what was, in his mind, already there. Each draft is, maybe, further chipping away at a raw material. Or at least, that’s what I tell myself these days.
I think writers like to read about the processes of other writers because it makes us feel less shameful and neurotic about our secretive leanings, that few others understand. They may be understanding, but they don’t understand. That, and, we’re gluttons for punishment.
This is nice to read. I am in the middle of draft #15-ish (of a 90k word novel), and sometimes have asked myself, does it have to be this way? Around draft #7, I was feeling cocky and sure – this is it. 8 drafts later, it’s so much better. But with another 9 drafts, would it be even mo’ better than that? I’m starting to see it this way. Michaelangelo would look at a rough piece of marble and see a form hiding inside of it. He chipped away at the stone, to reveal what was, in his mind, already there. Each draft is, maybe, further chipping away at a raw material. Or at least, that’s what I tell myself these days.
I think writers like to read about the processes of other writers because it makes us feel less shameful and neurotic about our secretive leanings, that few others understand. They may be understanding, but they don’t understand. That, and, we’re gluttons for punishment.
it takes about 5 drafts before I know what the fuck I’m doing. 10 drafts and it starts to be something I feel has legs or needs to be abandoned or pillaged. Between 10 and 15 and it’s usually done. I have drafted something 22 times and I think it’s just now ready, but what if I write a new piece that’s better and needs the lines that are inside the 22 time drafted poem? I’d probably kill it.
Has anyone ever over drafted something? Is that a miserable feeling or what? (and please mind the pun, it was a mistake)
it takes about 5 drafts before I know what the fuck I’m doing. 10 drafts and it starts to be something I feel has legs or needs to be abandoned or pillaged. Between 10 and 15 and it’s usually done. I have drafted something 22 times and I think it’s just now ready, but what if I write a new piece that’s better and needs the lines that are inside the 22 time drafted poem? I’d probably kill it.
Has anyone ever over drafted something? Is that a miserable feeling or what? (and please mind the pun, it was a mistake)