February 27th, 2010 / 2:16 pm
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12 New Tao Lin
Twelve new poems from Tao Lin at The Lifted Brow, the new issue of which has more good shit that you can handle, including from David Foster Wallace’s forthcoming final novel. I like these new Tao poems a lot, ’seems fun or something,’ think most of them were in an issue of Zachary German’s The Name of This Band is the Talking Heads.
Tags: Tao Lin, the lifted brow
ZZZIPPP JUST ABSORBED SFAA AND WHILE IT DID NOT APPEAL TO HIS TASTE RECEPTORS AND HE THOUGHT THE SUBJECT WAS AWFUL IT WAS WELL WRITTEN. ACHIEVED POLYPHONY. EVENTFUL. NICE.
ANYWAY MORE NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN THESE POEMS FOR ZZZZIPPP TO LIKE THEM, IS THAT REALLY WHAT PEOPLE WANT, UNINTERESTING DESCRIPTIONS OF NOTHING, WRITTEN COMPETENTLY??? WHAT IS HIS POETRY LIKE IN THAT COLLECTION, ZZZZIPP WAS GOING TO BUZZZ IT.
FEELS LIKE TAO LIN WILL BE HAVE A GREAT NOVEL OUT SOME DAY
COULD SEE HOW “THE YOUTH” WOULD IDENTIFY WITH SFAA IN A WAY THAT WASN’T INTENDED (SEEMS LIKE TAO IS CLEVER)
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February 27th, 2010 / 3:27 pmZZZZIPP—
**NOVEL PREDICTION BASED ONLY ON SFAA, NOT THESE POEMS
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February 27th, 2010 / 3:56 pmMatt Cozart—
i would say that part of the appeal is that his writing is not conventionally “competent”. in fact, fans of “competent” writing seem to be his biggest detractors. the humor also appeals to me. (that’s a lame way of saying: it makes me laugh.)
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February 27th, 2010 / 4:07 pmZZZZIPP—
BUT HIS PROSE WRITING IS TECHNICALLY COMPETENT
THE STRUCTURE OF SFAA IS ACTUALLY VERY GOOD (AT LEAST HOW HE PREPARES YOU FOR THE REST OF THE NOVEL WITH THAT GMAIL CONVO AT THE BEGINNING)
UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN IN REGARDS TO HIS POETRY I GUESS, I JUST WONDER IF THAT’S REALLY “ENOUGH”, YOU KNOW. FOR ME ANYWAY
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February 27th, 2010 / 5:14 pmstephen—
agree on the structure being good. also, it has lots of “moments” in it, just like a “normal” “literary novel,” but they’re just presented simply and without added comment. which is awesome, i think, and “even more” effective in some way, or at least “points a new direction forward, maybe.” whoooo….too many scare quotes. sorry, yall
February 27th, 2010 / 5:19 pmZZZZIPP—
IT DOES HAVE SOME GOOD MOMENTS PRESENTED SIMPLY. I LIKED THAT.
I WAS ACTUALLY REALLY ANNOYED AT HOW MUCH HE USED SCARE QUOTES IN THOSE POEMS, IT’S LIKE “COME ON MAN, I’VE ALREADY READ YOUR BLOG.” NOT THAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOUR COMMENT STEPHEN
February 27th, 2010 / 5:23 pmstephen—
hehe
February 27th, 2010 / 6:03 pmjack—
zip, that’s actually one of the best assessments of his writing i’ve seen
Long live the Tao. Would like to see that DFW excerpt. Am intrigued by Zachary German’s poetry. http://www.spdbooks.org/Pages/Item/442/zachary-german-the-nike-swoosh-is-beautiful.aspx He makes it “seem so easy” and yet “this is well-done.”
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Those poems are garbage.
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February 27th, 2010 / 5:15 pmstephen—
human garbage? seems harsh
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Sometimes I wonder if this ‘ ‘ business is being used because Tao thinks it should be there or simply because it’s come to be expected of him. Other times I don’t care. These poems are OK with me. Better than the poems I kind of had accepted in The Lifted Brow and then subsequently rejected from The Lifted Brow.
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February 27th, 2010 / 5:16 pmstephen—
he’s making an effort to point to where language “breaks down,” “can’t sufficiently define something,” or “is questionable, unfixed.” also, he’s having fun, being playful, i would guess
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February 27th, 2010 / 6:06 pmjack—
he got them from chris killen mostly, i think. there was a blog post a while ago where he wrote about the origin and function of the ” ‘ ” thing. stephen’s also right. i mean ‘right’. i mean, ‘i mean’.
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read the poems over again. what’s interesting is that they have all the elements of a “more normal” poem, like descriptions of nature, insight into personal feelings, family anecdote, attempts to convey un-conveyable things, etc., but it’s all presented as close to fact as possible, the embellishments have been sheared a way and there it is, a transcription of Tao’s interesting thoughts. Whether that’s “good” poetry or not is irrelevant, because there is no good or great or best in art. There’s just what you like. I like this. I like other types of poems, too.
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February 27th, 2010 / 5:34 pmstephen—
first one is my favorite, definitely. quite moving when you think about it.
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February 27th, 2010 / 5:43 pmStu—
I can’t figure out whose ass you’re further up, Tao’s or your own. You’ve spent six comments in this thread essentially saying, “I like these poems.” We get it.
I liked the fisherman poem. First time I’ve ever been able to say that I like any of his shit.
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February 27th, 2010 / 5:44 pmStu—
Oh wow. Farther* Not further.
February 27th, 2010 / 6:37 pmstephen—
i was exploring my thoughts on the poems. sorry if that was self-indulgent, but i’m not up anyone’s ass. what are the rules for commenting on htmlgiant, again?
February 27th, 2010 / 7:26 pmRawbbie—
I agree about the fish poem. I have liked about 80% of Tao’s stuff. Same goes for these. 2-3 of them aren’t great poems, maybe not even good poems. But 2-3 of them are great, like ‘favorite’ ‘poems’.
I think these are really rad. The middle sags a little, but still. What’s interesting about the ZG connection w/r/t these poems is that I think they demonstrate an interesting counter-thesis to the usual argument that Tao sets a pattern and his copycats follow. I think these poems find their form, their tone, and certainly their method of focus in ZG’s writing. So far, Tao, Zachary, and Ellen Kennedy are the only people in this coterie of writers who have produced anything worth reading–which makes sense, since they started it–but I find their bodies of work (collectively, and as individuals) highly compelling, perhaps more rather than less so for how narrow their scope is. If nobody but the three of them ever wrote in this style / these styles, I’d be very much relieved. But what I’d really like to see if the three of them keep pushing it and each other deeper and further, forever. Thanks for linking these.
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Tao Lin is a product of his environment. Everything he writes is a result of indeterminate causes. So why criticize or analyse?
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February 27th, 2010 / 9:18 pmryan—
What do you mean?
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here are 12 more poems by me in this style:
i think i lost a poem
i remember the poem said i was listening to ‘star fucking hipsters’
louder than i ever listened to it before
i searched my gmail for ‘star fucking hipsters’
and didn’t find the poem
the poem isn’t in my microsoft word file of poetry
i just remembered it wasn’t a poem
it was a twitter update
i see it in my twitter account
the ‘tweet’ says ‘blog is getting mad hits today,
i’m listening to “only sleep” by “star fucking hipsters”
maybe louder than i have ever listened to it before’
talking to you on gmail chat feels ‘romantic’ tonight, thursday night
i was eating tacos and chips
suddenly i became very emotional
it seemed to happen at an exponential rate
i could feel it inside of me very far away
then suddenly everything seemed ‘darker’
later you said ‘what’s wrong,’ i said ‘nothing’
later you said ‘you look fucked up’
someone confronted me on gmail chat about my internet persona
i was confused suddenly, like, ‘everything stopped,’ i felt
then everything was changing very quickly
then i typed ‘becoming really famous
and remaining completely confused
and unable to make pronouncements
seems exciting to me, something i would like to do’
and everything seemed okay again
then everything seemed scary but funny
then everything seemed normal again
bobst library is like a giant maze without any maze-like aspects
i opened the bathroom door ‘pretty fast’
someone coming out said ‘sorry’ and paused
and looked back at me as i entered the bathroom
i felt that his facial expression conveyed having been ‘deeply offended’
i vaguely and idly thought ‘calm down bitch’ as i entered a stall
then thought ‘what is my tone right now’ in an ‘extreme monotone’
i honestly feel like i could develop the ability to ‘have sex’ with someone without moving
i could be sitting somewhere and have an orgasm
while maintaining a neutral facial expression
and whatever emotion i’m currently feeling
the earliest use of the word ‘sarcastic’ i know of in a novel is from ‘good morning, midnight’ by jean rhys published in 1939
when people see me doing normal things in public
like zipping my hoodie or reaching for a cup
i feel like a cow or horse on a field trying to ‘appear nonchalant’
as people drive by in minivans staring at me from backseats
things i do that make me feel more likely to kill myself make me feel better about life
sometimes i feel like life would feel too bad to keep being alive
if i don’t eat a certain thing, and then i eat it, usually carbohydrates
i think that kind of situation is the cause of 20-80% of my actions
someone next to me in the computer lab is ‘undulating,’ looks like he’s from kansas or oklahoma, has ’spreadsheets’ on his computer screen
might be funny to start a tumblr that posts photos of dams
to try to elicit comments that say ‘damn’
i honestly feel detached from reality
sometimes i feel really bad but i feel like a two-year-old boy feeling bad
like i don’t know what is happening
i don’t know if i would rather win three national book awards or two pulitzer prizes
i think if i win a major award i will spend one or two years not really caring about anything
i think it will be okay if i don’t care about anything from the ages 31 to 33
i gave energy drinks to homeless people
i drank a lot of mr. pibb
while taking baths in florida
i ate wendy’s chicken sandwiches
my life will never be like that again
i just thought ‘argh’
i want to live in a 4132 square foot house in suburban florida
sometimes i think ‘would i rather have a 10% more attractive face
or a 10% higher IQ’ and debate that
and feel better for some reason instead of worse
seems like doing that should cause me to feel much worse
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February 27th, 2010 / 6:39 pmstephen—
tao, i am up your ass and up my own ass. seems impossible, icky
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February 27th, 2010 / 6:41 pmtao—
each line break is a change from ‘title of poem’ to ‘poem’ or ‘poem’ to ‘title of next poem’
i used ‘double line breaks’ but it didn’t work, it seems
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March 1st, 2010 / 10:39 pmjesusangelgarcia—
are you a fame junkie, tao?
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Tao’s schtick is going to get real old real fast.
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February 27th, 2010 / 6:57 pmstephen (reporting from inside tao lin's asshole)—
Beckett’s whole “language is a stain on the silence, yet i must go on using it, fuck!” shtick has gotten old fast, too, i would say
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February 27th, 2010 / 6:59 pmstephen (impersonating 'stu' or some other angry blogbro)—
***threats of physical violence*** “arrgggh!!!!” “who ARE you anyway, blog seems suck” “ew, chicago,” “ew, enthusiasm,” “just eww” etc.
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February 27th, 2010 / 7:04 pmstephen—
*hating myself a little bit* oh well
February 27th, 2010 / 7:26 pmstephen—
oh and i was the one impersonating the greater part of current pop culture + literary legends back from the dead, etc. i’ll cut that out. have a good night, gents and occasional women.
February 27th, 2010 / 8:54 pmStu—
Great impersonation of me. Except you forgot about the bit where I dance drunkenly around a sombrero with a bottle of mezcal attached to my lips, humming the “Jarabe Tapatío.”
February 27th, 2010 / 7:27 pm( )—
“You’re right. I forgot that Lin is the new Beckett. I thought the new Beckett was Noah Cicero. But then again, I have a hard time telling Lin and Cicero apart. It must be the whole Aspberger’s thing. You know, everyone’s got it. I just diagnosed myself with it a couple of weeks ago. Now I know what’s wrong with me. All this time I was under the impression that I was just an asshole. Thank God for the DSM.”
“No. You’re just an asshole.”
“Probably.”
“Give me that thing.”
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February 27th, 2010 / 7:01 pmtao—
i feel that currently my interest in poems of this style isn’t strong enough for me to write and edit enough of them for a long enough time for a poetry-collection of them to be released
at one point i felt excited about poems in this style by me and felt i wanted to write and edit them and publish a collection of them at some point
i no longer feel that way
in that sense i felt that this style of poem did ‘get old’ to me
and that they probably won’t be collected into a book
or if they do it will be in something like 5 years, with the poems being written while i feel excited about this style, for something like 10-20 1-2 week periods over 5 years
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February 27th, 2010 / 7:36 pmRawbbie—
It is going to get old, but at the same pace everything gets old.
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February 27th, 2010 / 7:55 pmZZZZIPP—
I JUST READ 24 POEMS IN THIS STYLE AND I FEEL LIKE IT WAS OLD AFTER 3 OR 4
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February 27th, 2010 / 9:16 pmryan—
I disagree. Great poetry does not get old–it feels better and better with each reading. There are certain poems that I read multiple times every day, and the bliss never goes away. There is a richness in the mouth–there’s this incredible cognitive bliss–and their lines get stuck in your head like the refrains to pop songs, and they sort of make your day better. “always roaming with a hungry heart” . . . yes!!
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February 27th, 2010 / 10:12 pmZZZZIPP—
RYAN I THINK RIGHT THERE, THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT POETRY IS
THE THING WITH THESE POEMS RIGHT NOW IS THAT WHILE IT MAY DO SOMETHING WELL THAT IS PERHAPS “NEW” HOW CAN IT ENDURE WHEN IT’S SO EMPTY AND VAGUE?
February 27th, 2010 / 10:13 pmZZZZIPP—
I DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW NEW “IT” IS, I’M JUST GOING BY LIKE, JUSTIN TAYLOR’S COMMENTS, MAN. I DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.
February 28th, 2010 / 2:48 pmstephen—
When discussing literary work, I disagree with emphasis on “relevancy” (i.e. things getting old) or on “artistry” IF it is asserted to be a set thing, which in most cases, is the quality of readily apparent sophistication in the prose or poetry. Often the best art in many fields has implied (that is, NOT readily apparent), “unintended” (this word would take more unpacking than i feel like doing right now), or extra-art depths to it (by “extra-art” I mean beyond the work itself as text or image, gesturing to the artist him or herself and their life and emotions and the drama or simply the longing contained in them having made that art).
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good job, tao
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i’m old
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February 27th, 2010 / 8:39 pmZZZZIPP—
SORRY MAN
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February 28th, 2010 / 12:47 amanon—
thanks
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old (ld)
adj. old·er, old·est
1.
a. Having lived or existed for a relatively long time; far advanced in years or life.
b. Relatively advanced in age: Pamela is our oldest child.
2. Made long ago; in existence for many years: an old book.
3. Of or relating to a long life or to people who have had long lives: a ripe old age.
4. Having or exhibiting the physical characteristics of age: a prematurely old face.
5. Having or exhibiting the wisdom of age; mature: a child who is old for his years.
6. Having lived or existed for a specified length of time: She was 12 years old.
7.
a. Belonging to a remote or former period in history; ancient: old fossils.
b. Belonging to or being of an earlier time: her old classmates.
8. often Old Being the earlier or earliest of two or more related objects, stages, versions, or periods.
9. Geology
a. Having become slower in flow and less vigorous in action. Used of a river.
b. Having become simpler in form and of lower relief. Used of a landform.
10. Exhibiting the effects of time or long use; worn: an old coat.
11. Known through long acquaintance; long familiar: an old friend.
12. Skilled or able through long experience; practiced.
13. often ol’ (l)
a. Used as an intensive: Come back any old time. Don’t give me any ol’ excuse.
b. Used to express affection or familiarity: Good ol’ Sam.
n.
1. An individual of a specified age: a five-year-old.
2. Old people considered as a group. Used with the: caring for the old.
3. Former times; yore: in days of old.
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These are simply not poetic to me, rather simple musings. Just my opinion.
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:41 pmJhon Baker—
I agree. I tried to like these poems but could not, not because they lack poetry but because they feign mental illness almost a schizophrenic haunting while getting it totally wrong.
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February 28th, 2010 / 12:27 amaaron steely—
regarding “not poetic” “lack poetry”:
they are a departure from ‘traditional’ hyperbolic/flowery poetry and traditional structure/rhythm/meter. but what of free verse/free form poetry? are there ’set’ rules that one must adhere to to be considered poetry? can you put restrictions on art? this is an expressive art form, for sure. i agree that this is “not poetic” in that it does not have any traditional elements apparent, nor does it produce a pleasing sound or contain definitive imagery, but I would also argue that it is still poetry.
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February 28th, 2010 / 12:58 amDaniel Romo—
they are a departure from ‘traditional’ hyperbolic/flowery poetry and traditional structure/rhythm/meter. but what of free verse/free form poetry?
Why is that always the first card played? Most successful contemporary poets don’t adhere to your antiquated notions of a poem. No one writes like that anymore guy (even shitty poets today). I’m just saying they’re simply not very good. Again, just my opinion. But I see I’m not alone.
February 28th, 2010 / 1:05 amryan—
I agree, they’re pretty definitely poems. And in fact they aren’t even that radical, stylistically – clean line breaks, explanatory titles, specific images, attention to tone (even if I’m not persuaded by the tone produced, fiddling w/ tone to create a ‘persona poem’ is very normal), inventive tropes (the tuna fish), etc. In fact, in many ways they are very traditional. Claiming that they are enacting some new form/style is mostly an evasion.
And equating traditional poetry with hyperbolic/flowery poetry is misguided, I think.
February 28th, 2010 / 1:35 amaaron steely—
@daniel romo
fair enough.
@ryan
I wouldn’t call them “very traditional”, regarding content. Perhaps I am misguided in my idea of traditional poetry, but this was not an attempt at “evasion”. The point I was making was more in reference to Mr. Romo calling them “simple musings”. I appreciate you justifying them definitively as poems given my vague knowledge of the intricacies of definition.
I fully respect your guys’ opinions if you do not like Tao’s style, to each his own. To me, though, this is something new and refreshing, which isn’t to say I don’t appreciate and/or love a diverse range of literature.
March 2nd, 2010 / 1:03 pmDonald—
aaron, I would argue that “free verse/free form poetry” was very much the “traditional” poetry of the last century, and certainly of, say, the last fifty years, inasmuch as it became the norm. In fact, I disagree with Daniel’s description of metered, rhythm-based and/or rhyming poetry as being “antiquated”; I think the idea of any such limitations being placed upon poetry is far more outdated.
There was a massive movement toward free-form verse over the course of the 20th Century, and while certain people — Ginsberg, Hughes, Eliot, Seidel — did it very well, with care and skill, a lot of people simply turned to it as the default mode of poetry, without thinking, because the big publications had decided the formal poem dead. What those people produced, predominantly, was shit. Have you picked up, say, Poetry magazine recently? Full of shit. There are gems, but they’re few and far between.
Even the standard of poetry in the Paris Review is fairly low. My suspicion is that this is because the old prejudices against formal poetry persist. Honestly, it’s pretty unfortunate. It’s like when some tweens feel that their new maturation requires them to cast off everything which once defined them in a desperate attempt to be ‘grown up’. That’s not the idea. You integrate the new ideas, and keep the best of the old. Poetry should be judged on its value as a piece of poetic writing, not on the form taken by the writing.
Anyway, to rein my massive digression back in, that’s something I like about the group of writers HTMLGIANT seems to report upon: they’re working with free-form verse, but the stuff they produce is, for the most part, really nice. I like these poems of Tao Lin’s. There’s something very honest and direct about them, even if they’re completely fabricated, even if they’re true to nothing but themselves. It’s the normalness of them, and the combination of the everyday with the slightly absurd. It’s also in the details: I love the fact that the onlookers are in the back seats of minivans in “the earliest use of the word ‘sarcastic’ “. Actually, I really like that poem in general.
I do think that the style might be idiosyncratic to the point that it would, as someone above said, get old quickly. For the moment, though, I’m loving it.
March 4th, 2010 / 6:41 pmaaron steely—
@Donald -
touche!
Can someone explain what is so ‘good’ about these poems? I’ve read through them several times and I’m just not seeing it. I can see where maybe they have camp value, where you appreciate them for how wildly they fail, but I’ve never really seen the point of that kind of thing.
For example: “my heart felt like a non-organic potato / with root things starting to grow out of it” What is of value here? I picked these lines because they seemed like one of the dozen poem’s more startling moments, but even this seems like an empty exercise in ‘persona,’ rather than an attempt at authentic expression. These poems lean so hard on laconic absurdist understatement and ‘hip’ vagueness (“then something dangerous happens,” “root things”) that IMO they suffocate out of the poems whatever might have been starting/surprising/awe-inspiring about them poems. Like in the non-organic potato poem, even though I don’t think very highly of it in the first place, it did have a certain enjoyable rhythm and swagger to the first half of it, and the ‘it was cloudy, i was thinking about a girl’ almost seems like it could be setting up some authentic emotional resonance, but then we get the abysmal ‘in certain situations’ in line 6, and the attempt to impose this hip, ‘empty,’ narcotized persona onto the poem again. I mean, I just don’t get it–like the Z.German poem linked to before, these seem like poems written by poets more interested in getting you the reader to like or admire them–their hip clever disconnected persona–more than they are authentic contributions to the art of poetry.
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February 27th, 2010 / 10:15 pmZZZZIPP—
I LIKE YOU RYAN
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:17 pmryan—
Aw. I like you too, ZZZZIPP. Hugs.
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February 27th, 2010 / 10:16 pmreynard—
what do you think the art of poetry is
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:14 pmryan—
Hmmm, I don’t know. maybe: condensed expressive language that is deeply concerned w/ the interplay of concrete linguistic meaning and the inherent sound (the ‘music’) of the words that convey that meaning? or language that searches for fresh figures of speech in order to re-utter ancient human ‘truths’ (there is a better word for this than ‘truths’–I’m thinking of Shelley’s Defence of Poesy here, maybe I should go back and read that)? Somehow I want to combine those two stabs at a explanation, although I sense the result would be a big mishmash of incoherence.
Why? What would you say it is?
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:49 pmreynard—
i don’t know
February 27th, 2010 / 11:52 pmreynard—
i really don’t, actually, what you said sounds fine. i guess i was asking because i really don’t know and i think maybe that’s okay
February 28th, 2010 / 12:04 amryan—
Well, deep in my heart I really don’t know either. Poetry is an elusive beast. You put me on the spot though, so I tried to sing and dance a little.
I agree that it is okay to not know. You can sort of sense the rough intuitive outline of it, and that is enough. Making it explicit loses most of it. . . .
February 27th, 2010 / 10:22 pmStu—
Well, they do have an “internet presence” to consider.
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:15 pmryan—
How do you mean that? (Or are you being sarcastic?) Is an “internet presence” a hairier beast than a print presence?
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:59 pmStu—
It’s all about getting “mad hits,” bro.
Sweet.
February 27th, 2010 / 11:52 pmhtad—
i’d like to see your questions answered, ryan.
does poetry like this strive to be significant, to find it’s legacy in art and history?
or Is it meant to be as momentary as their reflections?
is it meant to be as disconnected as the emotions described? To stand apart from it all, and become as seemingly arbitrary as the lines, “sometimes i think ‘would i rather have a 10% more / attractive face / or a 10% higher IQ’ “. The attitude seems so tentative and half-hearted that each line could end with, “or whatever”, and it would not change the meaning. (whatever “meaning” is)
it seems peculiar to see all of these poems bunched together. when I read it I imagined reading the journal of an apathetic early twenty year old attempting to entertain himself, attempting to pass the time. I imagined myself, it looked like my journal.
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February 28th, 2010 / 12:06 amhtad—
or whatever
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February 28th, 2010 / 12:21 amaaron steely—
it sounds ‘disinterested’ and ‘neutral’, i think you are getting at something when you say this:
“it seems peculiar to see all of these poems bunched together. when I read it I imagined reading the journal of an apathetic early twenty year old attempting to entertain himself, attempting to pass the time. I imagined myself, it looked like my journal.”
February 28th, 2010 / 1:23 pmJoseph Young—
i think this is the fundamental mistake a lot of people make about his prose and poetry, that it is a hipster disconnect of emotions. i venture that what people connect with in his poetry and prose is the huge bristle of emotions underneath. the apparent boredom of the voice can hardly contain the internal stomach ache.
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February 28th, 2010 / 2:35 pmstephen—
agree
March 1st, 2010 / 2:57 amhtad—
where is the hint of this “huge bristle of emotion” in the poem “i almost never know exactly what song to listen to”.
I don’t know. I see your point i suppose. one of tao lin’s older poems, “some of my happiest moments in life occur on AOL instant messenger” makes me want to cry all the time. but I feel like his older work is vastly different, and far better than these twelve poems.
what would you change to make your face 10% more attractive?
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Don’t they come out of the tradition of Beat everyday poems? NY everyday poems?
I give them a 5 (of 10). Amusing. They were OK. I mean poetry is a world. I prefer Tao’s poetry to his prose any day, BTW. I read them all and didn’t feel like I wasted my time. That’s cool with me. I mean Brautigan xeroxes a candy bar, and I’m Ok with it, though I don’t want to read a 100 of them. Ever since the whale joke, I can roll with Tao’s poetry.
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February 27th, 2010 / 10:10 pmZZZZIPP—
THAT’S TRUE SEAN
I DID NOT FEEL LIKE I WASTED MY TIME WITH TAO’S POETRY
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February 27th, 2010 / 11:10 pmhtad—
style seems reminiscent of new york school poets, eg “Lunch Poems” by Frank O’Hara. I don’t know anything.
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I think part of the allure is how relevant/relatable/modern these poems are to ‘our generation’. His work is putting a voice to a way of life – a modern-twenty-something’s struggle to exist in this world as it is. To elucidate, he is putting out there a portrait of the modern-self-actualized-world-conscious-environmentally-aware-health-driven-technologically-adept-mainstream-wary-disillusioned-’millenial’. It is a curse, and a gift to be self-actualized/cognitively aware of an overactive internal dialogue. Many of our peers are ‘content’ with life and happy to continue following mainstream trends. Tao Lin is not one of those people, and it is blatantly obvious that he is not the only one. He has become a voice to a large group of individuals through his bleak/depressed/lonely/sardonic/bored/disinterested/brutally honest style of writing, whether he is even aware of it or not.
Perhaps in 50 years it will be appreciated more fully how perfectly he is capturing the ‘trials and tribulations’ of such a person, that is to say, the everyday thoughts, experiences, and struggles, or lack-there-of. Juxtapose this with the experience of someone who had grown up in any other period – it is something that is only possible at this period in time, and because of this period in time (Kerouac, Fitzgerald, Thoreau, Hughes, Wolfe, Vonnegut, Tolstoy…).
Upon first reading Tao’s poems via the internet at “bear parade” (http://www.bearparade.com/thisemotionwasalittlee-book/) I was refreshed and captivated. Here I had found someone who was writing in a way that felt wholly new to me. I felt he captured something for me at that moment, and commenced consuming his work, and quickly became turned onto other writers/artists utilizing a similar aesthetic (and some not so similar). This is a snapshot of ‘us’ through one man chronicling his most personal (and some not so personal) thoughts/musings/insights.
Guess I’m not one for brevity >.<
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February 28th, 2010 / 12:52 amryan—
No, thank you. Brevity schmevity–great post.
Thanks for that link. That is indeed a better batch of poems. Though I’m by no means in love with them, and though I’m not even sure I’d consider either a success, “i have low self esteem . . .” and “i am fucked if. . .” were definitely striking poems. And I very much do love the lines “from a distance of one hundred and thirty years / you can call the second half of someone’s life ‘mental breakdown and death’” (Although now that I look at it again “you can call the second half of” seems a little slack, too baggy–now I just kinda love those two lines.)
However, if I can poke at things a little. . . I am a member of the generation you describe (modern twenty-something, etc.), yet I fail to recognize either myself of this general “spirit” within these poems. Are you perhaps referring to mainly his prose? (I haven’t read it yet.) I especially don’t see anything suggestive of an “overactive internal monologue.” Is there anywhere specifically within the poems that you could point to, to illustrate this? You claim that he perfectly captures an era’s ‘voice,’ but I think that implies a level of artistry that isn’t there. Most of the poetry seems fairly predictable in terms of diction and sentiment–I have not yet read anything in either batch of poems that does not come easily to a beginner poet. For example, the start of “terrible asshole”:
my mom taught me… something
is that the end of this poem?
it is not
Is there anything here that is surprising, startling–fresh? It’s basically a cliche–undergraduate journals across the country are filled with poems w/ a similar sentiment. (I remember one year my college’s journal had a poem starting w/ something like “The first line is always the hardest.”)
And the diction here is boring. “Taught me . . . something.” I’ve seen tons of beginner poems that think the ellipsis between ‘me’ and ’something’ induces in the reader some kind of suspense, and similarly putting “it is not” in a new stanza attempts to create a kind of suspense that isn’t there.
I know that part of his mission is to write about/from boredom, but writing that is about boredom does not need to itself be boring. Really, I think you are attributing to Tao a kind of uniqueness that I don’t think his poetry has. Most of these poems are of kind w/ much of the bad beginner poetry I’ve read before, and if I had to guess, much of his writing’s appeal has to do with what I am guessing is a charming online persona. It probably colors others’ reading of his work.
I’m open to argument otherwise, though. If you are talking about the poems, I’d love it if we could look at specific sections of them, see where you think he is accomplishing what you say he does.
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February 28th, 2010 / 4:12 amdavid e—
Aaron and Ryan, as someone who is wildly underread on the poetry front, your back and forth here is refreshing. Also, it makes me feel less idiotic constantly checking htmlgiant, particularly after all the posts a few days ago about Molly Young.
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February 28th, 2010 / 9:13 amZZZZIPP—
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS RYAN. I FEEL LIKE THERE HAVE BEEN PLENTY OF BORED POETS WRITING FROM A POSITION OF BOREDOM AND DEPRESSION AND THEY ALL MADE THINGS THAT WERE INTERESTING. IT IS A PRE-EXISTING TRADITION.
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February 28th, 2010 / 9:27 amZZZZIPP—
ACTUALLY TAO LIN’S POEMS KIND OF REMIND ME OF SAD JEFFREY
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February 28th, 2010 / 2:41 pmstephen—
i think his work speaks to young people who spend too much time on the internet (thus debilitating their grammar/vocab, potentially) and who are depressed and/or self-loathing :) i imagine there is both impulse and deliberation in these poems
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February 28th, 2010 / 2:58 pmStu—
‘I’ ‘think’ ‘that’ ‘writing’ ‘about’ ‘boredom’ ‘in’ ‘a’ ‘really’ ‘boring’ ‘fashion’ ‘only’ ’serves’ ‘to’ ‘perpetuate’ ‘boredom.’
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February 28th, 2010 / 3:21 pmZZZZIPP—
“ah”… OH.
“hah”…
“EVERY” “DISCUSSION” “OF” “TAO” “LIN” “TURNS INTO” “THIS”. IT’S LIKE THE EYES ON A NON-ORGANIC POTATO
February 28th, 2010 / 3:22 pmStu—
“lol”
February 28th, 2010 / 3:46 pmstephen—
Someone named David Foster Wallace used to be working on a novel called “The Pale King.” Reportedly, it concerns…….boredom. We shall see.
February 28th, 2010 / 3:49 pmstephen—
What writers do you like, Stu? I’d like to judge your taste, nonverbally.
February 28th, 2010 / 3:51 pmStu—
The difference: Lin bores me. DFW does not.
February 28th, 2010 / 3:54 pmZZZZIPP—
BUT STEPHEN THE EXCERPT I’VE READ OF THAT BOOK IS NOT BORING. “BOREDOM” IS A POTENTIALLY CHALLENGING TOPIC, BUT I WOULDN’T SAY YOU’VE SUCCEEDED IN REPRESENTING IT IF YOUR GOAL WAS TO REPRESENT IT ON A 1:1 LEVEL, WHICH IS MAKING SOMETHING BORING TO TALK ABOUT BOREDOM. LOTS OF POETS HAVE TACKLED BOREDOM, AND THEIR GOAL WASN’T TO TACKLE BOREDOM WITH BOREDOM, BECAUSE THAT’S BORING.
STEPHEN WE AREN’T JUDGING YOUR TASTE, JUST TAO LIN. IT’S YOUR OWN THING IF YOU LIKE HIM. DON’T GET WRAPPED UP IN IT.
AND ISN’T THE PREMISE OF “PALE KING” HOW TO SUCCEED IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF EXTREME BOREDOM?
February 28th, 2010 / 3:57 pmstephen—
Stu, your comment with all quotes only points out that your opinion is just your opinion, especially re: “‘in’ ‘a’ ‘really’ ‘boring’ ‘fashion’.” (which also proves you don’t know how or why “these people” are using quotes, as you unnecessarily/nonsensically scare-quote words that don’t need individual scare-quoting like ‘a.’ but you’re being “funny,” so “whatever”) (i shouldn’t bother with you, Stu. it’s just i’m bored and you keep being “a drag” “all the time.”) If the writing is itself “boring,” then it is enacting boredom, not just “describing” it—Samuel Beckett once said of James Joyce’s work, “His writing is not about something. It is the thing itself.”
February 28th, 2010 / 4:01 pmstephen—
Stu, what you’re actually doing is attempting to “head off at the pass” writing that you don’t like for abstract and concrete reasons. Your opinions are your opinions, of course, but the way you are employing them is in the service of suppression. Half the time you pretend, “it’s just my opinion, man,” but that isn’t “what’s going on.” And that’s “weak.”
February 28th, 2010 / 4:03 pmstephen—
@ZZZZIPP “AND ISN’T THE PREMISE OF “PALE KING” HOW TO SUCCEED IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF EXTREME BOREDOM?” <——- You would need to define "succeed" here. I think that's the problem word.
February 28th, 2010 / 4:13 pmstephen—
“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace is “kinda boring” or at least “taxing” or “discomforting,” etc. to read, but it’s a great story, in my opinion, because it does more than describe a person and their predicament, it enacts that person and their predicament in the writing, and thus, the reader grows closer to the character, who, while just words and ideas, is the embodiment of something real in real human beings. I don’t think DFW would want to be remembered simply for his fun, conversational essays or for “that big book that is way cool, and seems Objectively The Shit, for my generation,” or for any one way of writing. I think he would like to be remembered as a person who attempted to “convey” (and there’s an interesting word, much more interesting than “describe”) what it feels like “to be a fucking human being.” Cheers.
February 28th, 2010 / 4:51 pmryan—
Tao’s poems don’t enact boredom, though. When people say that Tao writes about boredom in a boring way, they do not mean that he is skillfully tailoring his style to match his subject. They simply mean that his writing is bad. When writing is bad, the reader actually physically becomes bored. If Tao were artfully enacting boredom, the reader would feel something related to boredom–they would sympathize w/ the poem’s speaker’s keenly observed boredom and angst, probably–but they would not themselves feel bored.
And the DFW comparison isn’t going to do these poems any favors. You could take any one sentence from “The Depressed Person” and find the urge toward precise phrasing present in a far greater magnitude than it is anywhere in Tao’s 12 poems.
February 28th, 2010 / 5:22 pmstephen—
@ryan: I’m going to respond to your comment sentence by sentence, as follows, numbered:
1) This is your opinion, nothing more.
2) I know that’s not what they’re saying. The second part of this sentence is an iffy approximation of what I was saying.
3) Define “bad” as it applies to Art.
4) Writing can be “bad” (highly abstract, possibly useless term re: Art or without goals and contexts) in many different ways and has lots of possible effects on its readers.
5) “artfully” is subjective. You don’t know the myriad ways a reader may feel when reading something. Having said that, as I already stated, Samuel Beckett once said of James Joyce: “His writing is not about something. It is the thing itself.” This is relevant to this conversation and to my point, which is (apart from defending Tao Lin), that you guys are thinking about art in a subjective way and then claiming that your thinking is objective, and as a result, you’re “not being fair,” or being “unchill,” “possibly annoying.” This whole sentence is opinion masquerading as definitive observation/God’s Truth. Also, “keenly observed” is not an artful combination of words.
6) What would it mean “to do these poems any favors”? Do they need favors? Is art a game? Is online pseudo-literary criticism a game? If they are games, what is at stake?
7) “find the urge toward precise phrasing present in a far greater magnitude” is not precise phrasing. Art doesn’t have rules. Etc.
February 28th, 2010 / 5:26 pmstephen—
#5 & 7 have opinions in them. Should have said “in my opinion” in both cases.
February 28th, 2010 / 5:30 pmStu—
Stephen, I’m ‘fairly sure’ why and how ‘these people’ are using the scare quotes. I perceive a condescending tone here. Correct me if I’m wrong. It’s okay. Yes, my opinions are my opinions. You are stating the obvious. The fact that you are so offended by my humor suggests to me that maybe the issue here is you and not me.
In the context of this thread, what I like is inconsequential. It’s like saying, “this guy sucks, this entry should be dedicated to someone else.” But I didn’t need to say that because you threw DFW into the equation in the hopes that it could somehow highlight the “wrongness” of my opinion regarding Lin. That seems more suppressive than anything I’ve done here.
Lin’s writing does nothing for me. I don’t need to write an essay or quote Beckett to reinforce that. Though I probably could. But why bother? For me, Lin is one of those “if you’ve read one, you’ve read them all” kind of writers. It’s the same affected voice from one poem and story to the other, “enacting” boredom in a way that makes boredom a prevailing characteristic instead of a state of being that one can shift in an out of.
February 28th, 2010 / 5:52 pmryan—
Um, we’re commenting on a blog, stephen. Why are you telling me that my words are not keenly observed, or that they do not exhibit the urge toward precise phrasing? We’re not creating art, here. We’re just talking.
Anyway, I’m no longer interesting in continuing this discussion with you, stephen. Most everything I say is undoubtedly my opinion. If you want to do the “that’s just your opinion, not God’s honest truth” thing, then have at it. [And where you're not doing this, you're basically equivocating meaninglessly instead of saying anything--points 4 and 5.] Later.
February 28th, 2010 / 6:11 pmZZZZIPP—
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY SKATES? I THINK I LEFT THEM HERE. EITHER THAT OR LUCY IS LYING TO ME AND SHE REALLY DID TAKE THEM.
February 28th, 2010 / 6:41 pmaaron steely—
ryan – i’ll get back to you on your points tonight//not enough time to give the kind of response i want to write currently.
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March 1st, 2010 / 2:20 pmaaron steely—
Perhaps i was a little over-zealous in claiming Tao’s work to be indicative of an entire generation. The things I outlined above as the paradigm of this ‘modern-twenty-something’ i think still hold true to who this might appeal to, but it is his dealings with loneliness/depression/sadness/boredom/isolation that put a unique voice to his work. His un-affected style of writing – neutral and sometimes monotone – convey a state of mind and a mood that I find engaging and relatable. He is successfully able to distance himself from his thoughts, and many times, just as it gets quite serious and real, he will bring in an element of randomness and begin on something seemingly non-sensical. That is, if what he is writing about isn’t already imaginatively hilarious.
I would recommend reading his prose, it will perhaps illuminate this ‘mood’ I am talking about. I still think his work is a result of “an overactive internal monologue”, and he is able to capture that fairly well. However, I think most writers have this, and are able to channel it into words effectively. “Eeeee Eee Eeee” might be a good one to check out to illustrate that. I guess that’s kind of a cop-out, but I hardly feel adequate to respond to most of your questions, Ryan, you are quite insightful into dissecting what people say and disarming them! in no way is this an insult, a compliment, actually.
As far as anything being “surprising, startling-fresh”, I have found the entirety of his work to be so. This can be a result of my exposure, though. I have never seen or read anything similar to Tao prior to stumbling upon him. Undergrad writing was never as humorous/fascinating/truthful expressions of thought as what Tao writes. I won’t argue with you about that line “taught me…something”, though it does set up the rest of the poem to discuss “something”. It’s not the most fascinating line, but I don’t think he was trying to create a masterpiece poem in which he spent lengths of time crafting the perfect opener to draw in the reader – rather, I think this was a poem rather quickly written, and without painstaking care over the subtleties.
I read Tao largely before I was acquainted with his “online persona” and I liked it a lot. I read a lot of his stuff online and shortly thereafter ordered SFAA, which upon finishing I ordered all the rest of his work. At this point I became aware of his online presence, which is intentional, calculated, and prevalent. This has only added to my appreciation for him, though it changed my perception of Tao from a lonely/isolated/sometimes depressed guy disillusioned with this life, holed up in a NYC apartment, to a dynamic person who is very much aware of the effect he is having on people and fully embracing/utilizing that. He is extremely charismatic via the internet.
I realize you issued me a challenge and you would like to see specific poems illustrating what I claim Tao is accomplishing, but I think the best bet would be to just hit up a library or buy one or two of his poetry books/novella’s. They are quick reads, and you can form your own opinion of them, and maybe keep in mind what I have said. I’d love to hear what you think though, if you get a chance. SFAA would take a few hours to read if you manage to get a copy.
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March 5th, 2010 / 10:55 pmryan—
Aaron – thank you. I promise I’m going to respond soon (I hope you’re still checking). I just returned from an unexpected psych-ward commitment, so I’m still trying to settle back into the daily rhythms.
March 17th, 2010 / 10:04 pmaaron—
no worries if you do, no worries if you don’t
i occasionally take a peak, like now.
March 17th, 2010 / 10:04 pmaaron—
actually, the other post re: tao is blowing up, maybe get involved there
March 17th, 2010 / 10:04 pmaaron—
damni t i replied to the wrong thread.
these 3 messages @ryan
I like these poems. They seem to be humble poems. They don’t seem to aspire to much, which is fine. I don’t understand the people who say these are ‘very bad’ poems. I feel like I would hate whatever they think ‘good’ poetry is. I could try to convince these people that there is goodness in these, but it doesn’t really matter, I guess. It should be enough to just like them, regardless of what other people think.
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February 28th, 2010 / 1:09 amryan—
Why does it not matter? Great art is important. If I’m staring at some great poems here (or even just goods ones) and some idiosyncratic flaw on my part is stopping me from enjoying them, I would like to know. I like read poetry; I love it when someone changes the way I see a poet.
If they are very good, making a case for them should be fairly easy.
And I disagree that they are humble.
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February 28th, 2010 / 1:43 amanon—
I say it doesn’t matter because: 1. If I tried, I don’t think I could convince people who don’t think these are good that they are good. (This is partly because I don’t really understand literary criticism at all and partly because I’m one of those people who think ‘good art’ and ‘bad art’ are nonsensical categories.) 2. I think the only reason that I would want to convince people that these poems are good is some immature desire to be ‘right’ and have people ‘agree with me’ so I can feel ’smart’ and ‘insightful.’ I’d like to discourage this kind of behavior in myself so that maybe I can be a better person.
I don’t think there’s any secret to these poems. If you don’t get anything from them, then you don’t get anything from them. You’re not missing anything. Maybe that’s what I mean by ‘humble.’ The whole poem is laid out before you. It’s not hiding anything. It doesn’t give you the impression that there’s some esoteric truth that you can access if you can only learn to decode it. For instance, the one called ‘it is 2009, m.i.a. is 33.’ It’s about listening to her ‘Paper Planes’ song on Youtube and not being able to understand the words. Obviously the mishearings that Mr. Lin includes are ’symbolic’ in some sense, but they feel ‘weakly symbolic.’ It feels like you don’t have to read into them if you don’t want to. They can just be surface details of no consequence. Ha. Maybe these are ‘undemanding’ poems. They are ‘easy-reading’ poems. I dunno.
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February 28th, 2010 / 2:43 amryan—
Does that mean “poorly made poem” and “well-made poem” are also nonsensical?
I don’t think you have to worry about seeming immature, or like you want everyone to agree with you. IMO talking about poetry you like/love is essentially a celebration, and even if you don’t “convince” me that Tao’s poems are aesthetically interesting, I do think there is immense value in hearing the nittygritty regarding why you appreciate his poems. I would have loved it, honest. And maybe I could have even celebrated w/ you.
You don’t need to be up on ‘literary criticism’ to talk about poems–or at least, I’m not, and I do anyway! : ) See ya around, anon.
February 28th, 2010 / 2:32 pmstephen—
totally agree with you, anon, with everything you wrote here
February 28th, 2010 / 3:39 pmanon—
Yes, ryan. I think “poorly made poem” and “well-made poem” are nonsensical. I think most definitions of ‘poem’ and ‘art’ except the most broad ones are nonsensical.
I’m not worried about SEEMING immature; I’m worried about BEING immature. I think the only reason why I would want to argue about what art is ‘good’ and what art is ‘bad’ on the internet is to make myself feel ’smarter’ and to reinforce the self-concept that I have ‘good taste.’ I think those motivations are probably the product of insecurity and I don’t want to act out of insecurity. I don’t think art criticism is stupid or anything. Go right ahead.
I don’t think I have anything to add to this discussion. I feel like an asshole, so I’m going to peace out in a minute.
Earlier you wrote: “Great poetry does not get old–it feels better and better with each reading. There are certain poems that I read multiple times every day, and the bliss never goes away.” It seems that your relationship with poetry (and art in general?) is different than mine. By this criterion of ‘great poetry,’ I don’t think ‘great poetry’ exists, in my experience. Most poetry (and art) just makes me feel extremely indifferent. The art that I think fondly of are those things that gave me momentary comfort, made me laugh a little, got me excited. The only time I’ve felt ‘bliss’ is during an orgasm or on drugs. Maybe this temperament pre-disposes me to think that no ‘bad’ and certainly no ‘good.’ I’ve rarely seen anything that was more than ‘pretty good’ or ‘alright.’
February 28th, 2010 / 4:07 pmstephen—
you seem sweet, anon
March 1st, 2010 / 7:44 pmanon—
thank you
February 28th, 2010 / 4:38 pmryan—
Interesting. It does seem like we’re coming at this from completely different angles.
Personally, I’m kind of flabbergasted at the notion that there’s no such thing as a well-made poem. Would you say that about other artforms–movies, novels, pop songs, etc?
I just meant that, for the record, I don’t think you’re immature. Interrogating your motivations and declining to act in a way that you suspect might be stem from insecurity strikes me as pretty mature.
I don’t think you should feel like an asshole, either. Later on!
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February 28th, 2010 / 1:20 amDaniel Romo—
My poems are humble too. Really. So am I.
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February 28th, 2010 / 1:41 amaaron steely—
lol @ “how to do your makeup like a chola”
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February 28th, 2010 / 4:16 amdavid e—
yes, that is a good use of lol; the theo piece earns it too.
reading the chola piece i kept think of Lem falling in love with that witness on “The Shield,” how Shane ripped on him for it.
February 28th, 2010 / 11:19 amDaniel Romo—
david e— Your shield reference also makes me think of when Pacman fell in love with the chola in “Colors.”
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February 28th, 2010 / 4:17 pmdavid e—
when Erol’s went out of business in the late 80’s, my Mom raided the store and got me a huge cut-out of Penn/Duvall. Good stuff that movie. I don’t remember the Pacman love part…it’s been too long. May have to watch that again. Thanks.
February 28th, 2010 / 2:55 pmstephen—
Don’t quit your day job.
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February 28th, 2010 / 2:57 pmstephen—
that was unnecessary. sorry, daniel.
I’ve noticed something: this place has all
the swidftestness of an arugula, and I like how the plainjanes
and swelljills brought out the bad beat
for number eleven. There’s something really
liberating about that, and very much LIKE AN INSURANCE ADJUSTER CLIMBING OUT OF A DRAINAGE PIPE.
Conclusion: either the dance is all the same
or shane’s a lane
sittingbull
J.A.C. (Jackoff, Arseman & Commode, P.A.)
“Let’s go to a phone booth or something, huh? Where I will unveil a fifth of whiskey, I have hidden here under my loose, flowing sports shirt.” ~ Angelo Maggio
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February 28th, 2010 / 2:25 pmstephen—
like
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is tao lin a ‘controversial’ writer?
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pop culture causes such a ruckus
and who doesn’t love a good ruckus?
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i don’t understand how people write such long comments…
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March 1st, 2010 / 9:40 amZZZZIPP—
WE USE THESE THINGS CALLED “KEYBOARDS”. THEY’RE LIKE TYPEWRITERS ATTACHED TO A COMPUTER. IT’S DIFFERENT THAN USING A PENCIL OR SOMETHING.
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March 1st, 2010 / 1:38 pmaaron steely—
boredom, maybe. or just enjoying a good argument. one or both of those i think. for me.
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I read Nathalie Sarraute’s The Golden Fruits this weekend, and I feel like Tao Lin is a contemporary, ‘real’ equivalent of “The Golden Fruits” (the novel by Brehier [I think that was the fake-author's ((real author's??)) name] within the novel by Sarraute).
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March 1st, 2010 / 1:34 pmmagick mike—
does this make sense to anybody. tao lin doesn’t read french fiction i don’t think, wonder if anybody who reads a lot of french fiction really likes tao lin.
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March 1st, 2010 / 5:33 pmJeff—
Been meaning to read this novel for a while. You recommend? – I mean, apart from any Tao Lin connection?
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March 1st, 2010 / 6:05 pmmagick mike—
Yes, certainly. It does stuff in a really fucking weird way, and since I feel like I need to back this up with something other than “yes this was good” I will copy and paste the notes I took on it:
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March 1st, 2010 / 10:10 pmJeff—
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Mike. I’m on sold on this and looking forward to diving into it soon.
Tao Lin’s face is 100% beautiful. And he is just the right amount of brilliant.
I like Sarraute and other French ‘new wave’ writers too. And sense a connection with Tao Lin’s writing, not historically maybe, but through aesthetic and ethical choices.)
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March 5th, 2010 / 1:51 amZZZZIPP—
MOOMIN??? MOOMIN??? SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!
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March 5th, 2010 / 11:03 pmmoomin—
zzzipp?? thank you…
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Holy Fucking God… could any of this seriously be the state of Literature In America?
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March 5th, 2010 / 11:04 pmryan—
No.
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March 6th, 2010 / 12:14 amanon—
This is the New York State of Literature in America.
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March 8th, 2010 / 4:13 pmanon—
i don’t approve of this anon. so now i’ll be “Connie” or something
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March 10th, 2010 / 12:50 amanon—
i don’t approve of this anon. so now i’ll be “Connie” or something
[the entirety of this thread as summarized to 5% by ms word]
Long live the Tao.
Those poems are garbage.
read the poems over again.
I liked the fisherman poem.
I agree about the fish poem.
2-3 of them aren’t great poems, maybe not even good poems.
i think i lost a poem
good job, tao
i’m old
old (ld)
adj. old•er, old•est
I agree, they’re pretty definitely poems.
I like these poems of Tao Lin’s.
NY everyday poems?
ACTUALLY TAO LIN’S POEMS KIND OF REMIND ME OF SAD JEFFREY
Tao’s poems don’t enact boredom, though.
I like these poems. They seem to be humble poems.
I think “poorly made poem” and “well-made poem” are nonsensical.
My poems are humble too.
Tao Lin’s face is 100% beautiful.
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[5% summary summarized to 5% by ms word]
Those poems are garbage.
NY everyday poems?
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March 6th, 2010 / 2:21 amZZZZIPP—
[5% summary of summary summarized to 3 characters]
r
ay
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March 6th, 2010 / 10:08 amzusya—
well my work is clearly done here. until the next thread, gang.
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I read that the word “good” originally means “good to eat.”
Poems are not good or bad.
Nobody eats poems, except maybe by mistake [[fortune cookie, etc.]]
Tao Lin’s poem are calm and I like them. I like every line.
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March 7th, 2010 / 8:18 amzusya—
‘i’ feel haollow, yes {i} do
but
im not sure if
you actually
do
i just hope that this
is you
and knot
apophthegm
{excuse me.}
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March 7th, 2010 / 2:59 pmmoomin—
zusya
thank you for the link
yes
“All Moomin characters sing songs, often about their thoughts and themselves.”
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March 7th, 2010 / 10:12 pmzusya—
[5% etc.]
…
i feel like the visceral disdain that a lot of people (myself, occasionally, included) feel for tao lin stems from the fact that his poems so effectively bring to light issues about contemporary poetry that are pretty painful for a lot of poets to acknowledge. pretty much every tao lin poem i’ve ever read utilize a form i would like to call “this is a poem too, asshole.”
i got you are a little bit happier than i am for free through spd and had a good time reading it, and even took a break from writing the typical pregraduate ashbery/stevens ripoffs in order to rip off tao lin for a day or two. for many writing students, myself included, who don’t love tao lin unconditionally, writing wry-yet-flat-affect poems in this vein are way outside their comfort zones.
reading such intentionally underwritten, extremely straightforward poetry makes some people feel defrauded, the butt of a joke, especially if they’ve spent money to read the poems. if i were smarter, better-read, i’d say something about capitalism here. the straightforwardness of the poems also tends to make people who write less straightforward poems wonder how much of what they consider their craft is just the deliberate obscuring of what, if they were really honest with themselves, would greatly resemble a tao lin poem if undistorted by their preconceived notions of what poetry should be. for many people, myself included, this is uncomfortable to think about.
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March 8th, 2010 / 4:09 pmanon—
if that’s how you feel, why do you still disdain him? isn’t he doing you and other poets a favor? giving you a needed wake-up call?
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March 8th, 2010 / 4:24 pmJhon Baker—
I don’t think most high functioning poets need a wake up call, I think most people calling theselves poets should stop and go masturbate about their importance with another title.
this is not in view of Tao Lin or Michael whose poetry I’ve yet to read, if he writes it, but in view of the majority of abusers of the title.
I am sure that Tao Lin prefers to be disdained to viewed as irrelevant. It is a contradiction to view something with emotion and as irrelevance. I wish more people hated my poetry.
about Tao Lins poetry or not-poetry, whichever as it is irrelevant, I stand by my above critique of his work.
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March 8th, 2010 / 7:38 pmmichael—
what i meant to get at was that i feel pretty ambivalently toward tao lin’s poems. sometimes they feel like a much-needed wake-up call, and sometimes i feel like his entire oeuvre is a publicity stunt. i think he definitely blurs the line between art and self-aggrandizement, or at least partially dismantles the idea that they are discrete entities. yet another tough pill to swallow.
for the most part, “i don’t disdain [him]. it’s quite the opposite. i dain [him].” but if i come across his poems online or in print, i’ll maybe read one to see if he’s at all developed his aesthetic. and skip the rest. it’s not out of loathing for the writer or his writing, it’s that i feel like i get it already.
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who is ryan?
why do people have to think about stuff so much all the time or feellike they have to “hate” on something just to feel confident
i liked what i read
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March 16th, 2010 / 12:46 pmryan—
do you mean me?
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March 16th, 2010 / 1:03 pmryan—
Since I probably won’t see your reply (tracking old thread seems difficult on this blog), I’ll just say that I am me, a dude named Ryan. While I don’t necessarily see the sin in “thinking so much all the time,” if I recall in this thread there wasn’t a whole lot of conscious “thinking” on my part. I wasn’t ‘theorizing,’ or trying to show off an erudition that I don’t have. I tried to engage imaginatively w/ tao’s poems, found them disappointing, tried to get a discussion going about them. Not something I think is such a huge deal, and I’m always surprised when it draws so much antagonism. (Of course, the antagonism almost always comes from the same few people who -insist- that the quality of an artwork can’t be evaluated or discussed—which is OK I guess, I just don’t understand why they are so insistent? I love talking about poems, about what works and doesn’t work—this what me and my buddies do, drink beer, talk about poems, etc.)
If I don’t like someone’s poems, I am certainly not hating on them. I just didn’t find them effective. I found some of tao’s poems that were linked to to be slightly more effective (in parts), but in general his poems seem carelessly written and unimaginative, as far as I can see. That is not hate, I don’t think. I would gladly read (and re-read, and re-read. . .) a well-written poem of his.
And I’m certainly not doing any of this to feel confident. I feel confident enough; I don’t need reinforcement from online blogs. I just like talking about literature, and poetry, and things. It’s fun.
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being attractive comes from ‘inside’, not your face
maybe
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March 17th, 2010 / 10:07 pmaaron—
dang
‘insightful’
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