March 25th, 2010 / 1:56 am
Snippets

I’m not sure what to think about this (NSFW) sort of disturbing account of a recent SXSM performance. A very unsettling phenomenon, to be sure. I have no interest in this guy–I had no idea who he was before I stumbled upon this write-up–but how do you react to this very, uh, performative performance? What is your visceral reaction?

What’s the difference between this type of performance (GG Allin we could place under this “criminal transgressor” rubric), and the same performativity in, to be timely–and because for both of these types the music itself is only a stage for the performance–someone like Lady Gaga’s project? I mean, assuming Lady Gaga is a “cultural transgressor,” what is the differing mechanism, if there is one, in Fat Mike’s performance? Or are neither legitimately transgressive? Blah blah. Just thought this was an interesting thing.

136 Comments

  1. Ben Stiller

      seems interesting and intense

      i like fat mike, owner of ‘fat wreck chords,’ singer of ‘nofx’

  2. Lincoln

      Well one difference between Cokie the Clown and Lady Gaga is Cokie’s outfit isn’t quite as clownish.
      (duh duh CHING)

  3. Ben Stiller

      seems interesting and intense

      i like fat mike, owner of ‘fat wreck chords,’ singer of ‘nofx’

  4. Lincoln

      Well one difference between Cokie the Clown and Lady Gaga is Cokie’s outfit isn’t quite as clownish.
      (duh duh CHING)

  5. Roxane Gay

      Giving people your pee tequila isn’t transgressive. It’s disgusting and maybe a health hazard. Then again, my mom always told me never to accept drinks from strange men.

  6. Roxane Gay

      Giving people your pee tequila isn’t transgressive. It’s disgusting and maybe a health hazard. Then again, my mom always told me never to accept drinks from strange men.

  7. Alec Niedenthal

      No, I agree that the act itself isn’t transgressive. But the unsettling reaction it prompts in, I guess, people who read about it/hear about it/witness it might be. Not in the nuanced Dennis Cooperish sense, of course, but in the raw GG Allin sense.

  8. Alec Niedenthal

      No, I agree that the act itself isn’t transgressive. But the unsettling reaction it prompts in, I guess, people who read about it/hear about it/witness it might be. Not in the nuanced Dennis Cooperish sense, of course, but in the raw GG Allin sense.

  9. Roxane Gay

      I don’t know who GG Allin is, sorry.

  10. Roxane Gay

      I don’t know who GG Allin is, sorry.

  11. Roxane Gay

      Also, when you start to nonconsensually force your bodily fluids on unsuspecting people, the unsettling reaction or the analysis thereof is completely irrelevant. I’m no doctor but I feel like you could give someone a disease that way. Art shouldn’t be life threatening.

  12. Roxane Gay

      Also, when you start to nonconsensually force your bodily fluids on unsuspecting people, the unsettling reaction or the analysis thereof is completely irrelevant. I’m no doctor but I feel like you could give someone a disease that way. Art shouldn’t be life threatening.

  13. Alec Niedenthal

      Punk rock “icon” who shat onstage and then threw it around, beat the audience up, allegedly raped women onstage. Seems to be perceived (hate that word…) culturally as a “transgressor” in the very vulgar sense.

  14. Alec Niedenthal

      Punk rock “icon” who shat onstage and then threw it around, beat the audience up, allegedly raped women onstage. Seems to be perceived (hate that word…) culturally as a “transgressor” in the very vulgar sense.

  15. Alec Niedenthal
  16. Alec Niedenthal
  17. mike young

      the tequila thing is kind of silly

      but the stories aren’t

      he has to live with those stories

      in them, even

      i like the first comment on the linked blog—by “Chantal”—it struck me as very rational and empathetic.. this actually seems like a relatively frank and beautifully simple reaction: “I would love to see this performance, minus the piss drinking, I’m not down with that shit haha!”

  18. Blake Butler

      gg allin was mentally ill. fat mike is a dumbass. lady gaga is a balloon.

  19. mike young

      the tequila thing is kind of silly

      but the stories aren’t

      he has to live with those stories

      in them, even

      i like the first comment on the linked blog—by “Chantal”—it struck me as very rational and empathetic.. this actually seems like a relatively frank and beautifully simple reaction: “I would love to see this performance, minus the piss drinking, I’m not down with that shit haha!”

  20. Blake Butler

      gg allin was mentally ill. fat mike is a dumbass. lady gaga is a balloon.

  21. Roxane Gay

      Hmmm…. I guess I just call that an asshole but I’m not really into… this sort of thing. I’m pretty liberal but I also feel like shit belongs in a toilet or a diaper and while I know some people get hard for this sort of performativity, I think it’s absurd. I think it’s an excuse for people to behave badly and act like they’re doing something they’ve put thought into. I am weirdly conservative about this.

  22. Roxane Gay

      Hmmm…. I guess I just call that an asshole but I’m not really into… this sort of thing. I’m pretty liberal but I also feel like shit belongs in a toilet or a diaper and while I know some people get hard for this sort of performativity, I think it’s absurd. I think it’s an excuse for people to behave badly and act like they’re doing something they’ve put thought into. I am weirdly conservative about this.

  23. Alec Niedenthal

      Agreed on all three counts, Blake, even though I stand behind the little I said in the Gaga post

  24. Alec Niedenthal

      Agreed on all three counts, Blake, even though I stand behind the little I said in the Gaga post

  25. anon

      Why should Fat Mike go to hell?

  26. Roxane Gay

      That’s right… Jerry Springer used to have a real show.

  27. anon

      Why should Fat Mike go to hell?

  28. Roxane Gay

      That’s right… Jerry Springer used to have a real show.

  29. Alec Niedenthal

      Jerry Springer lives where I go to school. One time one of my friends saw him come out of the bathroom in a cafe, and then went in after him. They said that the bathroom smelled like farts.

  30. Alec Niedenthal

      Jerry Springer lives where I go to school. One time one of my friends saw him come out of the bathroom in a cafe, and then went in after him. They said that the bathroom smelled like farts.

  31. Neil

      What an artist. So cutting edge. Extreme. Not caring. Bodily fluids. Hard core. Been through it. So real.

  32. Neil

      What an artist. So cutting edge. Extreme. Not caring. Bodily fluids. Hard core. Been through it. So real.

  33. Alec Niedenthal

      Why should anything do anything?

  34. Alec Niedenthal

      Why should anything do anything?

  35. Amelia Gray

      Copout

  36. Amelia Gray

      Copout

  37. Nick Antosca
  38. Nick Antosca
  39. Nick Antosca

      And for the record, I wish I’d been there. It’s easy to act jaded. This sounds engrossing.

  40. Nick Antosca

      And for the record, I wish I’d been there. It’s easy to act jaded. This sounds engrossing.

  41. I. Fontana

      “….and he wrote a song about it.”

  42. I. Fontana

      “….and he wrote a song about it.”

  43. tao

      thanks nick, just listened to it, enjoyed it

  44. tao

      thanks nick, just listened to it, enjoyed it

  45. colin herd

      engrossing, wow, you really nailed the perfect word.

      in a way this reminds me of but seems a little less potent than Ron Athey’s work, especially the NEA controversy in the mid Nineties when he: (wikipedia)

      ‘made cuts in co-performer Divinity Fudge’s back, placed strips of absorbent paper towel on the cuts and then, using a pulley, hoisted the blood-stained cloths into the air. Local art critic Mary Abbe (who had not witnessed the performance) wrote a sensationalizing story about the performance which appeared on the front page of Minneapolis Star-Tribune. That story was picked up the Associated Press and quickly made national headlines. Widespread anxiety about AIDS created a perfect storm as critics and lawmakers including Jesse Helms falsely described his performances as exposing audience members to HIV-infected blood.[1]

      Although this 1994 performance was supported only indirectly (via the Walker Center) by $150 from National Endowment for the Arts, Athey’s name was frequently invoked in criticism of the NEA. Athey was not alone – performance artists Tim Miller, John Fleck, Karen Finley, and Holly Hughes would become the NEA Four as they fought a case regarding funding for their work before the Supreme Court. Unlike these other artists, Athey has never applied for federal funds to support his work. Nevertheless, in many ways the controversy of this incident continues to shape public perception of his work.[2]’

  46. colin herd

      engrossing, wow, you really nailed the perfect word.

      in a way this reminds me of but seems a little less potent than Ron Athey’s work, especially the NEA controversy in the mid Nineties when he: (wikipedia)

      ‘made cuts in co-performer Divinity Fudge’s back, placed strips of absorbent paper towel on the cuts and then, using a pulley, hoisted the blood-stained cloths into the air. Local art critic Mary Abbe (who had not witnessed the performance) wrote a sensationalizing story about the performance which appeared on the front page of Minneapolis Star-Tribune. That story was picked up the Associated Press and quickly made national headlines. Widespread anxiety about AIDS created a perfect storm as critics and lawmakers including Jesse Helms falsely described his performances as exposing audience members to HIV-infected blood.[1]

      Although this 1994 performance was supported only indirectly (via the Walker Center) by $150 from National Endowment for the Arts, Athey’s name was frequently invoked in criticism of the NEA. Athey was not alone – performance artists Tim Miller, John Fleck, Karen Finley, and Holly Hughes would become the NEA Four as they fought a case regarding funding for their work before the Supreme Court. Unlike these other artists, Athey has never applied for federal funds to support his work. Nevertheless, in many ways the controversy of this incident continues to shape public perception of his work.[2]’

  47. Tony O'Neill

      Blake, did you ever see that great GG Allen doc, “Hated”? That was some intense shit. I have a friend who was meant to see Allen perform – he was big fan, but somehow had never made it to one of the live shows. He showed up late, and had missed the show because a power outage ended it early, and GG had apprently run out of the venue, naked and covered in his own shit. Then GG OD’d. My friend clmains that missing that show is is one of his big regrets in life.

      But GG Allen had the best backing band names in history – The Scum Fucks, The Murder junkies. The Carolina Shit Kickers….

      And I love this account of his funeral, from Wikipedia

      “At his funeral, Allin’s bloated, discolored corpse was dressed in his black leather jacket and trademark jock strap. He had a bottle of Jim Beam beside him in his casket, per his wishes (openly stated in his self-penned acoustic country ballad, “When I Die”). As part of his brother’s request, the mortician was instructed not to wash the corpse (which smelled strongly of feces), or apply any makeup. The funeral became a wild party. Friends posed with the corpse, placing drugs and whiskey into its mouth. As the funeral ended, his brother put a pair of headphones on Allin. The headphones were plugged into a portable cassette player, in which was loaded a copy of The Suicide Sessions. The video of his funeral is widely available for purchase, and is an extra feature on the Hated DVD and some bootleg VHS tapes.[15] GG was buried in mother Arleta’s plot beside her mother and father.”

  48. Tony O'Neill

      Blake, did you ever see that great GG Allen doc, “Hated”? That was some intense shit. I have a friend who was meant to see Allen perform – he was big fan, but somehow had never made it to one of the live shows. He showed up late, and had missed the show because a power outage ended it early, and GG had apprently run out of the venue, naked and covered in his own shit. Then GG OD’d. My friend clmains that missing that show is is one of his big regrets in life.

      But GG Allen had the best backing band names in history – The Scum Fucks, The Murder junkies. The Carolina Shit Kickers….

      And I love this account of his funeral, from Wikipedia

      “At his funeral, Allin’s bloated, discolored corpse was dressed in his black leather jacket and trademark jock strap. He had a bottle of Jim Beam beside him in his casket, per his wishes (openly stated in his self-penned acoustic country ballad, “When I Die”). As part of his brother’s request, the mortician was instructed not to wash the corpse (which smelled strongly of feces), or apply any makeup. The funeral became a wild party. Friends posed with the corpse, placing drugs and whiskey into its mouth. As the funeral ended, his brother put a pair of headphones on Allin. The headphones were plugged into a portable cassette player, in which was loaded a copy of The Suicide Sessions. The video of his funeral is widely available for purchase, and is an extra feature on the Hated DVD and some bootleg VHS tapes.[15] GG was buried in mother Arleta’s plot beside her mother and father.”

  49. Tony O'Neill

      Just read the account of the performance, Agree with Nick that it sounded fascinating. Alex, interested in quite why you had such a strong, negative reaction to this (“there should be a hell for fuckers like this”)

      After all we live in America. Our politicians, cops, laws, etc force us to eat shit every day, Drinking a clown’s piss seems like child’s play. And you cant catch Hep C from piss, and Im sure the tequila killed any bacteria. In fact, the tequila is probably more harmful to you than the piss would be.

  50. Tony O'Neill

      Just read the account of the performance, Agree with Nick that it sounded fascinating. Alex, interested in quite why you had such a strong, negative reaction to this (“there should be a hell for fuckers like this”)

      After all we live in America. Our politicians, cops, laws, etc force us to eat shit every day, Drinking a clown’s piss seems like child’s play. And you cant catch Hep C from piss, and Im sure the tequila killed any bacteria. In fact, the tequila is probably more harmful to you than the piss would be.

  51. Tony O'Neill

      Sorry Alec, that was a typo. Goddamn my fingers.

  52. Tony O'Neill

      Sorry Alec, that was a typo. Goddamn my fingers.

  53. dave e

      Alec, the most disturbing part of this post is your story about Jerry Springer and farts. I can’t watch the video so maybe if/when I do … my opinion will change.

  54. dave e

      Alec, the most disturbing part of this post is your story about Jerry Springer and farts. I can’t watch the video so maybe if/when I do … my opinion will change.

  55. Joseph Young

      does no one else get a reaction from their hoax detector on this? something about those pictures, so well lit and everything. anyway, if he’s for real, except for the piss drinking, which could have been faked itself–switch out the bottles–he just seems like a guy with gritty stories to tell. could be interesting if he tells them well.

  56. Joseph Young

      does no one else get a reaction from their hoax detector on this? something about those pictures, so well lit and everything. anyway, if he’s for real, except for the piss drinking, which could have been faked itself–switch out the bottles–he just seems like a guy with gritty stories to tell. could be interesting if he tells them well.

  57. Schulyer Prinz

      alec– why do you hate the word perceived?

  58. Schulyer Prinz

      alec– why do you hate the word perceived?

  59. davidpeak

      i’d much rather live in a world full of gg allins then a world full of lady gagas.

  60. davidpeak

      i’d much rather live in a world full of gg allins then a world full of lady gagas.

  61. Steve

      Seems like there might be more appropriate words than “interesting”, “engrossing” and “fascinating” to describe a story (if true) in which two men decide to watch a punk show rather than do anything to help a woman who is about to be raped. Maybe it depends on how he framed the story, but I’m not sure I can bring myself to listen to it to find out. What, if any, moral responsibility is borne by the paying audience at something like this or a GG Allin performance? Am I taking this more seriously than it should be taken?

  62. Steve

      Seems like there might be more appropriate words than “interesting”, “engrossing” and “fascinating” to describe a story (if true) in which two men decide to watch a punk show rather than do anything to help a woman who is about to be raped. Maybe it depends on how he framed the story, but I’m not sure I can bring myself to listen to it to find out. What, if any, moral responsibility is borne by the paying audience at something like this or a GG Allin performance? Am I taking this more seriously than it should be taken?

  63. Henry Vauban

      I just listened to it. From what I could hear on the recording, the audience deserved the performance.

  64. Henry Vauban

      I just listened to it. From what I could hear on the recording, the audience deserved the performance.

  65. anon

      Alec, you wrote “I think there should be a hell just for fuckers like this.” I presume that Fat Mike is one of these ‘fuckers.’ Why do you think he deserves that? In my reckoning, the only fucked-up thing he did (from the account in the article you linked) is letting that girl get raped. I suppose he should have called the cops or tried to stop those guys, but shit… I don’t know what the fuck I would have done in that situation. Shit is fucked up and really scary.

  66. anon

      Alec, you wrote “I think there should be a hell just for fuckers like this.” I presume that Fat Mike is one of these ‘fuckers.’ Why do you think he deserves that? In my reckoning, the only fucked-up thing he did (from the account in the article you linked) is letting that girl get raped. I suppose he should have called the cops or tried to stop those guys, but shit… I don’t know what the fuck I would have done in that situation. Shit is fucked up and really scary.

  67. john sakkis

      i’m with tony o on this one. seems like your reaction is way disproportionate to what is actually described in that write up…he told some stories he pee’d in some shot glasses and fed them to the audience. okay, so what? i also think the preamble (from the link) that the guy gives before he begins describing the show (“most fucked up thing i’ve ever seen” or whatever) didn’t at all hold up to what he actually described. but maybe that’s just bad writing on his part…

      hated is a pretty great documentary. i actually own it on VHS and re-watch it every couple years. gg allin and the murder junkies were a terrible band, the music was completely beside the point. only people who respected them were gutter punks and crusty punks…you know, hoodies and pit-bulls and sit/lie laws…but what’s great is the bonus footage…his last concert unedited from the gutted gas station to the naked covered in shit riot in the middle of the day NY to jumping in a cab to go shoot heroin and overdose and die (death not on film)…and then the bonus bonus footage is his actual funeral..which is fucking disgusting…reminds me of texas chainsaw massacre or something. just gross…awesome documentary.

  68. john sakkis

      i’m with tony o on this one. seems like your reaction is way disproportionate to what is actually described in that write up…he told some stories he pee’d in some shot glasses and fed them to the audience. okay, so what? i also think the preamble (from the link) that the guy gives before he begins describing the show (“most fucked up thing i’ve ever seen” or whatever) didn’t at all hold up to what he actually described. but maybe that’s just bad writing on his part…

      hated is a pretty great documentary. i actually own it on VHS and re-watch it every couple years. gg allin and the murder junkies were a terrible band, the music was completely beside the point. only people who respected them were gutter punks and crusty punks…you know, hoodies and pit-bulls and sit/lie laws…but what’s great is the bonus footage…his last concert unedited from the gutted gas station to the naked covered in shit riot in the middle of the day NY to jumping in a cab to go shoot heroin and overdose and die (death not on film)…and then the bonus bonus footage is his actual funeral..which is fucking disgusting…reminds me of texas chainsaw massacre or something. just gross…awesome documentary.

  69. Sean

      I’m not familiar with this guy. Even that brief write-up seemed to point out he had more substance than Ga Ga. Come on.

      I don’t get the “go to hell” comment either.

      On the rape incident, I can’t comment on a write-up of a guy on stage telling a story about years ago. I mean is that like exponential distance?

      I don’t like clowns.

  70. Sean

      I’m not familiar with this guy. Even that brief write-up seemed to point out he had more substance than Ga Ga. Come on.

      I don’t get the “go to hell” comment either.

      On the rape incident, I can’t comment on a write-up of a guy on stage telling a story about years ago. I mean is that like exponential distance?

      I don’t like clowns.

  71. Tim Jones-Yelvington

      The first person I thought of was actually Michael Alig.

  72. Tim Jones-Yelvington

      The first person I thought of was actually Michael Alig.

  73. davidpeak
  74. Tim Jones-Yelvington

      …I think I’m mostly down with Chantal’s comment as well.

      But I feel like I don’t know enough about Fat Mike or NOFX to be able to understand the context in which these trauma stories were delivered, heard and interpreted, so don’t really know how to contribute to the conversation.

  75. davidpeak
  76. Tim Jones-Yelvington

      …I think I’m mostly down with Chantal’s comment as well.

      But I feel like I don’t know enough about Fat Mike or NOFX to be able to understand the context in which these trauma stories were delivered, heard and interpreted, so don’t really know how to contribute to the conversation.

  77. Tim Jones-Yelvington

      Michael Alig did it knowing he had hep c.

  78. Tim Jones-Yelvington

      Michael Alig did it knowing he had hep c.

  79. Alec Niedenthal

      Tony, well, one reason why I had such a strong reaction is because, on a personal level, this stuff is really disturbing and fascinating to me, for one reason or another–that’s why I made this post in the first place. I also wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t baldly praising the guy as a transgressor. But I honestly do hate people like Fat Mike. I don’t find him “morally despicable” or anything. I just kind of hate them and I wish they were not alive any longer.

  80. Alec Niedenthal

      Tony, well, one reason why I had such a strong reaction is because, on a personal level, this stuff is really disturbing and fascinating to me, for one reason or another–that’s why I made this post in the first place. I also wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t baldly praising the guy as a transgressor. But I honestly do hate people like Fat Mike. I don’t find him “morally despicable” or anything. I just kind of hate them and I wish they were not alive any longer.

  81. Alec Niedenthal

      I dunno, John. As I said to Tony, I added the “hell” line after I had made the post (and just removed it) because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t 100% behind this guy as a transgressor. A little reactionary I guess. Maybe guys like this threaten my bourgeois worldview.

  82. Alec Niedenthal

      I dunno, John. As I said to Tony, I added the “hell” line after I had made the post (and just removed it) because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t 100% behind this guy as a transgressor. A little reactionary I guess. Maybe guys like this threaten my bourgeois worldview.

  83. Blake Butler

      hated is fascinating. and terrifying. i heard his brother also sucked his dick in the coffin.

  84. Blake Butler

      hated is fascinating. and terrifying. i heard his brother also sucked his dick in the coffin.

  85. Blake Butler

      i’m curious about the hell thing too

  86. Blake Butler

      i’m curious about the hell thing too

  87. Alec Niedenthal

      I dunno how to further explain it. What I said below is pretty much it. There’s nothing to deconstruct. It was an offhand bullshitty thing. Dude is just creepy as fuck and nailing punk’s coffin shut.

  88. Alec Niedenthal

      I dunno how to further explain it. What I said below is pretty much it. There’s nothing to deconstruct. It was an offhand bullshitty thing. Dude is just creepy as fuck and nailing punk’s coffin shut.

  89. tao

      alec…why? why would you wish fat mike was dead, what do you know about him? he’s released something like 20 cds via nofx, started an independent punk label that’s released something like 150 albums of 20 to 40 other bands, creating, in a way, probably hundreds of thousands of hours of socially-aware, satisfying, emotional, despair-reducing content for probably millions of young people (and older people) over the last 30 years

      ‘But I honestly do hate people like Fat Mike’

      what do you mean people like him? in my view there isn’t anyone ‘exactly’ like him and it is difficult for me to think of someone else tonally like him, in music, in such a sustained manner, throughout his songs, persona, ‘irl’ actions, etc., and it is also difficult for me to think of someone else like him in terms of productivity, influence, independence, and ’empire’ (re ‘fat wreck chords’)

  90. tao

      alec…why? why would you wish fat mike was dead, what do you know about him? he’s released something like 20 cds via nofx, started an independent punk label that’s released something like 150 albums of 20 to 40 other bands, creating, in a way, probably hundreds of thousands of hours of socially-aware, satisfying, emotional, despair-reducing content for probably millions of young people (and older people) over the last 30 years

      ‘But I honestly do hate people like Fat Mike’

      what do you mean people like him? in my view there isn’t anyone ‘exactly’ like him and it is difficult for me to think of someone else tonally like him, in music, in such a sustained manner, throughout his songs, persona, ‘irl’ actions, etc., and it is also difficult for me to think of someone else like him in terms of productivity, influence, independence, and ’empire’ (re ‘fat wreck chords’)

  91. tao

      steve, listen to the audio, they were 16 and 17 and would have been ‘beaten up,’ it’s not like they ‘flippantly’ went to listen to the vandals

      like almost all accounts of events, ‘as i’ve learned,’ through having read accounts of events i’ve been in, this account is not factually accurate, and also doesn’t type things like ‘i think’ or ‘or something’ when uncertain

  92. tao

      steve, listen to the audio, they were 16 and 17 and would have been ‘beaten up,’ it’s not like they ‘flippantly’ went to listen to the vandals

      like almost all accounts of events, ‘as i’ve learned,’ through having read accounts of events i’ve been in, this account is not factually accurate, and also doesn’t type things like ‘i think’ or ‘or something’ when uncertain

  93. tao

      “Dude is just creepy as fuck and nailing punk’s coffin shut.”

      what do you mean ‘nailing punk’s coffin shut,’ can you elaborate

      also, why do you think he is ‘creepy?’

      in terms of the content of his stories you can probably hear the same things by watching your evening local news or reading a newspaper or something

      in terms of drinking pee…people aren’t going to ‘die’ or ‘get sick’ from that probably, which fat mike probably knew, so it becomes a kind of ‘harmless joke,’ like serving horsemeat to someone expecting beef or something

  94. tao

      “Dude is just creepy as fuck and nailing punk’s coffin shut.”

      what do you mean ‘nailing punk’s coffin shut,’ can you elaborate

      also, why do you think he is ‘creepy?’

      in terms of the content of his stories you can probably hear the same things by watching your evening local news or reading a newspaper or something

      in terms of drinking pee…people aren’t going to ‘die’ or ‘get sick’ from that probably, which fat mike probably knew, so it becomes a kind of ‘harmless joke,’ like serving horsemeat to someone expecting beef or something

  95. Blake Butler

      the bands fat puts out are punk like money is free

  96. tao

      can you elaborate on ‘guys like this,’ alex?

      honestly don’t know what you mean

      have you listened to the audio?

      have you read anything about him?

  97. Blake Butler

      the bands fat puts out are punk like money is free

  98. tao

      can you elaborate on ‘guys like this,’ alex?

      honestly don’t know what you mean

      have you listened to the audio?

      have you read anything about him?

  99. Steve

      Yes, I fell into the trap of commenting on the write-up rather than listening to the actual audio of the thing.

  100. Steve

      Yes, I fell into the trap of commenting on the write-up rather than listening to the actual audio of the thing.

  101. Alec Niedenthal

      Tao, Fat Mike honestly bears no interest to me. In my view he has nothing to say, and his “empire” reproduces the same “capitalistic tendencies” which the “punk ethos” is supposed to subvert. Maybe my deeply felt hatred for Fat Mike, GG Allin, et al. comes from the fact that they do vex and disturb me in a very visceral sense, but the disturbance stops immediately. I feel no need to explore their “mythologies” the same way I do with serial killers and the like. Why? Who knows. Maybe I feel like their “transgressor” personas are too artificial to be taken seriously, and that they are performing in bad faith.

      Why are you so eager to defend Fat Mike? This whole argument seems tendentious to me–I want to write off Fat Mike completely, and you seem to harbor a deep respect for him. What about Fat Mike is so great and awesome to you? You clearly love the shit out of Fat Mike. Why do you revere Fat Mike so much?

  102. Alec Niedenthal

      Tao, Fat Mike honestly bears no interest to me. In my view he has nothing to say, and his “empire” reproduces the same “capitalistic tendencies” which the “punk ethos” is supposed to subvert. Maybe my deeply felt hatred for Fat Mike, GG Allin, et al. comes from the fact that they do vex and disturb me in a very visceral sense, but the disturbance stops immediately. I feel no need to explore their “mythologies” the same way I do with serial killers and the like. Why? Who knows. Maybe I feel like their “transgressor” personas are too artificial to be taken seriously, and that they are performing in bad faith.

      Why are you so eager to defend Fat Mike? This whole argument seems tendentious to me–I want to write off Fat Mike completely, and you seem to harbor a deep respect for him. What about Fat Mike is so great and awesome to you? You clearly love the shit out of Fat Mike. Why do you revere Fat Mike so much?

  103. Alec Niedenthal

      By “guys like this” I mean “punk criminal-transgressives” like GG Allin and this guy.

      Maybe I am judging Fat Mike preemptively. You’re right. Maybe I should come to NOFX with an open mind. But a big part of me wants to say, fuck NOFX. I see no reason why I should give this guy a chance.

      In 9th grade someone told me a joke that they heard off of an NOFX record. It’s: my grandfather died in the Holocaust. Yeah, he fell off of the guard tower.

      At that point I decided that I would never give NOFX the time of day.

  104. Alec Niedenthal

      By “guys like this” I mean “punk criminal-transgressives” like GG Allin and this guy.

      Maybe I am judging Fat Mike preemptively. You’re right. Maybe I should come to NOFX with an open mind. But a big part of me wants to say, fuck NOFX. I see no reason why I should give this guy a chance.

      In 9th grade someone told me a joke that they heard off of an NOFX record. It’s: my grandfather died in the Holocaust. Yeah, he fell off of the guard tower.

      At that point I decided that I would never give NOFX the time of day.

  105. Sean

      Will do. Thanks. David, you certainly predicted my response to seeing this. I went and read a ton of GG Allin stuff.

      Alec, I don’t think removing stuff is the way with posts. Just strike through, or don’t strike through and defend your initial thought.

      Then what do I know?

      Either way, thanks for the link-age. I’d never heard of this guy and thought it interesting.

  106. Sean

      When I say “read GG Allin” I mean googled and surfed all over. Reading isn’t internet. Or is it?

  107. Sean

      Will do. Thanks. David, you certainly predicted my response to seeing this. I went and read a ton of GG Allin stuff.

      Alec, I don’t think removing stuff is the way with posts. Just strike through, or don’t strike through and defend your initial thought.

      Then what do I know?

      Either way, thanks for the link-age. I’d never heard of this guy and thought it interesting.

  108. Sean

      When I say “read GG Allin” I mean googled and surfed all over. Reading isn’t internet. Or is it?

  109. Alec Niedenthal

      No, it isn’t, but the thing I removed was a supplement to the original post–I edited it in after I made the post–so I figured I could erase it just as well. And I am/was embarrassed by it.

  110. Alec Niedenthal

      No, it isn’t, but the thing I removed was a supplement to the original post–I edited it in after I made the post–so I figured I could erase it just as well. And I am/was embarrassed by it.

  111. Alec Niedenthal

      I come off as a lunatic in this post. I am sorry everyone.

  112. Alec Niedenthal

      I come off as a lunatic in this post. I am sorry everyone.

  113. Ryan Call

      lol

  114. Ryan Call

      lol

  115. Alec Niedenthal

      I seriously want to just erase everything I said in this post, and convince everyone to forget all of it. It went from me making a stupid, pseudo-fundamentalist remark about wanting Fat Mike to burn in hell, to me fumbling around and trying to explain the rationale of that remark, to me blossoming into a 100% insane person, who the average reader might believe very capable of actually murdering Fat Mike.

      I am a monster.

  116. Alec Niedenthal

      I seriously want to just erase everything I said in this post, and convince everyone to forget all of it. It went from me making a stupid, pseudo-fundamentalist remark about wanting Fat Mike to burn in hell, to me fumbling around and trying to explain the rationale of that remark, to me blossoming into a 100% insane person, who the average reader might believe very capable of actually murdering Fat Mike.

      I am a monster.

  117. Blake Butler

      you did nothing wrong. relax brother. it’s talk. things are good.

  118. Blake Butler

      you did nothing wrong. relax brother. it’s talk. things are good.

  119. Alec Niedenthal

      I know, thanks Blake. I just want to make sure everybody knows that I don’t actually want to kill Fat Mike.

      This is when I need to step away from the internet.

  120. Alec Niedenthal

      I know, thanks Blake. I just want to make sure everybody knows that I don’t actually want to kill Fat Mike.

      This is when I need to step away from the internet.

  121. Sean

      Alec,

      I’ll tell you what i learned soon posting here:

      1. My posts are on/off/way off/everywhere. Just like all the other HTML posters (though that’s not true. many other posters are 100% more intellectual/read about writing than me; they make less off-posts, but they do make off-posts)

      2. The commenters here can be in attack mode. I mean shark style. Can be sharper than me on a subject I just posted on, too. I mean that is HTML and it scares the hell out of some writers and readers (they tell me this to my face, more than thrice). But I thank them (commenters) for both characteristics. In a “be nice/social grease” blar/blar world, I have to think about what I just said (or hopefully before I post it). People have honest questions here about what you just said and so say so. That’s a positive, A.

      So. Relax.

      This site is about back/feedback/ribbing/all dat.

      Your post was fine. Perfectly fine. You stimulated conversation. This is a forum. Look at the bigger picture and keep firing.

      my 2.4 cents

      S

  122. Sean

      Alec,

      I’ll tell you what i learned soon posting here:

      1. My posts are on/off/way off/everywhere. Just like all the other HTML posters (though that’s not true. many other posters are 100% more intellectual/read about writing than me; they make less off-posts, but they do make off-posts)

      2. The commenters here can be in attack mode. I mean shark style. Can be sharper than me on a subject I just posted on, too. I mean that is HTML and it scares the hell out of some writers and readers (they tell me this to my face, more than thrice). But I thank them (commenters) for both characteristics. In a “be nice/social grease” blar/blar world, I have to think about what I just said (or hopefully before I post it). People have honest questions here about what you just said and so say so. That’s a positive, A.

      So. Relax.

      This site is about back/feedback/ribbing/all dat.

      Your post was fine. Perfectly fine. You stimulated conversation. This is a forum. Look at the bigger picture and keep firing.

      my 2.4 cents

      S

  123. Roxane Gay

      What he said.

  124. Alec Niedenthal

      Thanks a lot Sean. I guess I was so thrown off because I made a statement that I could in no way defend and that in retrospect I found kind of gross. I am drinking a Red Stripe and working on a paper. Everything is okay. (Thanks for accepting my Facebok friend request.)

  125. Roxane Gay

      What he said.

  126. Alec Niedenthal

      Thanks a lot Sean. I guess I was so thrown off because I made a statement that I could in no way defend and that in retrospect I found kind of gross. I am drinking a Red Stripe and working on a paper. Everything is okay. (Thanks for accepting my Facebok friend request.)

  127. David

      Alec, I wouldn’t worry so much, there’s nothing wrong with strong negative reactions to someone who deliberately sets out to inspire strong negative reactions, it feels, if anything, honest. The problem, as Nick said above, is jadedness and your response isn’t or wasn’t jaded, it was vexed. As a kind of weird momentary ‘thing’ you did, the rhetorical ‘excessiveness’ of your first thought – ‘burn in hell’ – was really interesting to me because, like, it seems to present a quite cogent reply to acts like this, if not yet maybe an analytically advanced one. The point being that the sentiment of damnation, that recoil, is perhaps the frame through which someone like old Cokie should, indeed, be understood. I don’t think he needs or wants a goddamn hug. Like Nick, I think I would have liked to have been at this too but would I have liked to be in the shot-drinking front row? It’s always easy to observe, to be engrossed rather than gross. Which does seem to be something of Cokie’s point in relating raw traumatic confessions to a concert audience. And to take Tao’s point, serving someone horsemeat may not do them any damage but it isn’t sending them flowers. How many times do you chew a piece of meat before the objective ‘joke’ becomes a swallowed subjective humiliation you wish to later throw up? So I don’t find anything wrong with your initial feeling on this. I may have had an issue if you had some phobic thing against the traumas he describes but your gut response was to transgression and whether transgression, in a sense, is too easy and too easily accepted as transgression. That’s a good and complex point. Because of that, I don’t think it’s a case of Fat Mike ‘working’ on you so much as you being cluey enough intuitively to understand that there is moral repulsion at play in bits like this, as the disgust of someone manipulating their trauma for the crowd, which goes beyond the exciting glamour of the ‘fucked up’ (which tends to bracket disgust as a kind of curio) to the more uneasy question of what gets bracketed when most of the audience is able to walk away with a report on piss-drinking but a few go home with a bellyful of piss. Is conscious manipulation and the bringing of manipulation into consciousness enough to disrupt desire? If everyone’s conscious, are we all unconscious? Maybe Cokie himself wants to burn in hell. He can finally get to know his dad.

  128. David

      Alec, I wouldn’t worry so much, there’s nothing wrong with strong negative reactions to someone who deliberately sets out to inspire strong negative reactions, it feels, if anything, honest. The problem, as Nick said above, is jadedness and your response isn’t or wasn’t jaded, it was vexed. As a kind of weird momentary ‘thing’ you did, the rhetorical ‘excessiveness’ of your first thought – ‘burn in hell’ – was really interesting to me because, like, it seems to present a quite cogent reply to acts like this, if not yet maybe an analytically advanced one. The point being that the sentiment of damnation, that recoil, is perhaps the frame through which someone like old Cokie should, indeed, be understood. I don’t think he needs or wants a goddamn hug. Like Nick, I think I would have liked to have been at this too but would I have liked to be in the shot-drinking front row? It’s always easy to observe, to be engrossed rather than gross. Which does seem to be something of Cokie’s point in relating raw traumatic confessions to a concert audience. And to take Tao’s point, serving someone horsemeat may not do them any damage but it isn’t sending them flowers. How many times do you chew a piece of meat before the objective ‘joke’ becomes a swallowed subjective humiliation you wish to later throw up? So I don’t find anything wrong with your initial feeling on this. I may have had an issue if you had some phobic thing against the traumas he describes but your gut response was to transgression and whether transgression, in a sense, is too easy and too easily accepted as transgression. That’s a good and complex point. Because of that, I don’t think it’s a case of Fat Mike ‘working’ on you so much as you being cluey enough intuitively to understand that there is moral repulsion at play in bits like this, as the disgust of someone manipulating their trauma for the crowd, which goes beyond the exciting glamour of the ‘fucked up’ (which tends to bracket disgust as a kind of curio) to the more uneasy question of what gets bracketed when most of the audience is able to walk away with a report on piss-drinking but a few go home with a bellyful of piss. Is conscious manipulation and the bringing of manipulation into consciousness enough to disrupt desire? If everyone’s conscious, are we all unconscious? Maybe Cokie himself wants to burn in hell. He can finally get to know his dad.

  129. Kate

      yeah totally thought about ron athey with this (but of course less interesting). or marina abramovic’s performance where she asked audience members to torture her. or bob flanagan, etc.

  130. Kate

      yeah totally thought about ron athey with this (but of course less interesting). or marina abramovic’s performance where she asked audience members to torture her. or bob flanagan, etc.

  131. joseph

      Pissed I’ve been elsewhere all day and couldn’t jump in on this sooner.

      (Full disclosure a la people’s shit about sharing burrito once with Zachary German or whomever: NOFX has been for years/currently is one of my favorite bands, I’ve got a really faded “Are Musicians Lousy Lovers?” bumper sticker on my car.)

      Bias aside, I think what I have to say about this shit still works.

      I’m surprised/disappointed by some of the harsh reactions Fat Mike’s performance on this site. For one, I’m really surprised, especially given the nature of this site, that anybody yes yet to really bring attention to the fact that Cokie The Clown is A CHARACTER. Shit, for that matter actually, Fat Mike is a character. Kind of like how Slim Shady is character based on Eminem who is a character for Marshal Mathers…etc.

      If most the shit mentioned by Cokie, not Fat Mike, and most definitely not Mike Burkett, had appeared in written form via Tyrant Books or Little House on The Bowery or wherever then it would probabky be “Fat Mike Week” here at HTMLGIANT and everyone would be “really affected” by the book. The thing about the milking could easily have Stephen Elliot’s name on it and people’d be all about it.

      The song “my orphan year” has some lines about Fat Mike’s mother dying:

      “My mother battled cancer
      For over seven years
      I nursed her and I held her
      When time was running out
      The night before she left me
      I drank scotch all night
      And thanked her for everything she’d done
      Raising me alone wasn’t much fun”

      That may or may not be true either, but what it is though, is another approach to the same situation written by the same person.

      Fat Mike has been writing shit that’s equally “shocking” for 20 years, but usually it’s got retarded humor in it so I guess people aren’t as turned off by the music/don’t pay as much attention, I am actually really impressed to see him making something a lot more serious with what he’s got.

      About the rape thing, that either a)happened to some or all of the extent and is something that clearly he has issues with since he presented it in such a way, or b) is complete fiction for the purposes of the piece and would probably be “really impressive” of Lars Von Tier or somebody was responsible for it.

      I was going to jump on Alec for the hell thing but it appears that’s already been done and discussed. Alec, you’re still loved, of course.

      I’m sleepy now.

  132. joseph

      Pissed I’ve been elsewhere all day and couldn’t jump in on this sooner.

      (Full disclosure a la people’s shit about sharing burrito once with Zachary German or whomever: NOFX has been for years/currently is one of my favorite bands, I’ve got a really faded “Are Musicians Lousy Lovers?” bumper sticker on my car.)

      Bias aside, I think what I have to say about this shit still works.

      I’m surprised/disappointed by some of the harsh reactions Fat Mike’s performance on this site. For one, I’m really surprised, especially given the nature of this site, that anybody yes yet to really bring attention to the fact that Cokie The Clown is A CHARACTER. Shit, for that matter actually, Fat Mike is a character. Kind of like how Slim Shady is character based on Eminem who is a character for Marshal Mathers…etc.

      If most the shit mentioned by Cokie, not Fat Mike, and most definitely not Mike Burkett, had appeared in written form via Tyrant Books or Little House on The Bowery or wherever then it would probabky be “Fat Mike Week” here at HTMLGIANT and everyone would be “really affected” by the book. The thing about the milking could easily have Stephen Elliot’s name on it and people’d be all about it.

      The song “my orphan year” has some lines about Fat Mike’s mother dying:

      “My mother battled cancer
      For over seven years
      I nursed her and I held her
      When time was running out
      The night before she left me
      I drank scotch all night
      And thanked her for everything she’d done
      Raising me alone wasn’t much fun”

      That may or may not be true either, but what it is though, is another approach to the same situation written by the same person.

      Fat Mike has been writing shit that’s equally “shocking” for 20 years, but usually it’s got retarded humor in it so I guess people aren’t as turned off by the music/don’t pay as much attention, I am actually really impressed to see him making something a lot more serious with what he’s got.

      About the rape thing, that either a)happened to some or all of the extent and is something that clearly he has issues with since he presented it in such a way, or b) is complete fiction for the purposes of the piece and would probably be “really impressive” of Lars Von Tier or somebody was responsible for it.

      I was going to jump on Alec for the hell thing but it appears that’s already been done and discussed. Alec, you’re still loved, of course.

      I’m sleepy now.

  133. reynard

      in 1958 yves klein had a show called ‘The Specialization of Sensibility in the Raw Material State into Stabilized Pictorial Sensibility, The Void’ where 3000 parisians waited on line for hours outside the gallery, the window of which was painted international klein blue (IKB). a blue curtain was hung in the lobby where they paid $3 to enter a hallway also covered in IKB, there they were served blue cocktails before entering an empty white room (aside from a large cabinet). they would later come to find that their urine was blue.

      yves klein said of the piece:

      “Recently my work with color has led me, in spite of myself, to search little by little, with some assistance (from the observer, from the translator), for the realization of matter, and I have decided to end the battle. My paintings are now invisible and I would like to show them in a clear and positive manner, in my next Parisian exhibition at Iris Clert’s.”

      just saying

  134. reynard

      in 1958 yves klein had a show called ‘The Specialization of Sensibility in the Raw Material State into Stabilized Pictorial Sensibility, The Void’ where 3000 parisians waited on line for hours outside the gallery, the window of which was painted international klein blue (IKB). a blue curtain was hung in the lobby where they paid $3 to enter a hallway also covered in IKB, there they were served blue cocktails before entering an empty white room (aside from a large cabinet). they would later come to find that their urine was blue.

      yves klein said of the piece:

      “Recently my work with color has led me, in spite of myself, to search little by little, with some assistance (from the observer, from the translator), for the realization of matter, and I have decided to end the battle. My paintings are now invisible and I would like to show them in a clear and positive manner, in my next Parisian exhibition at Iris Clert’s.”

      just saying

  135. JimR

      Bingo. And I think Fat Mike would find by this comparison to G.G. silly and stupid. G.G. videoptaped himself drinking hooker piss for kicks. Fat Wreck Chord’s artists get royalty checks on the regular and their employees have health insurance.

      And for future reference, the next time something under the umbrella of “punk” comes up, qualifying what is or isn’t punk disqualifies you from being taken seriously. (I don’t meant you, Joseph, but the contributors and commenters at large.) Punk is a genre of music that overlaps (by a considerable margin) the period of your life when you gave a shit. Get over it.

  136. JimR

      Bingo. And I think Fat Mike would find by this comparison to G.G. silly and stupid. G.G. videoptaped himself drinking hooker piss for kicks. Fat Wreck Chord’s artists get royalty checks on the regular and their employees have health insurance.

      And for future reference, the next time something under the umbrella of “punk” comes up, qualifying what is or isn’t punk disqualifies you from being taken seriously. (I don’t meant you, Joseph, but the contributors and commenters at large.) Punk is a genre of music that overlaps (by a considerable margin) the period of your life when you gave a shit. Get over it.