July 16th, 2010 / 10:51 am
Behind the Scenes

Ellis on Wallace

Everybody’s innovator-buddy Bret Easton Ellis, during a q/a in Hackney:
Question: David Foster Wallace – as an American writer, what is your opinion now that he has died?

Answer: Is it too soon? It’s too soon right? Well i don’t rate him. The journalism is pedestrian, the stories scattered and full of that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality and Infinite Jest is unreadable. His life story and his battle with depression however is really quite touching…

[via The Howling Fantods]

Tags: ,

207 Comments

  1. Patrick

      Agreed that it’s a bit too soon to be answering this as well as his thought’s on DFW’s journalism but to say Infinite Jest is unreadable is either admitting that he’s an unambitious reader, which is hard to believe coming from a fellow author, or just jealous.

  2. Patrick

      Agreed that it’s a bit too soon to be answering this as well as his thought’s on DFW’s journalism but to say Infinite Jest is unreadable is either admitting that he’s an unambitious reader, which is hard to believe coming from a fellow author, or just jealous.

  3. donnie wahlberg

      this thread is going to be good

  4. donnie wahlberg

      this thread is going to be good

  5. Steven Augustine

      I can’t wait to read about BEE’s blunt-object murder/rape by a low-rent hustler. 2016 at the latest.

  6. Steven Augustine

      I can’t wait to read about BEE’s blunt-object murder/rape by a low-rent hustler. 2016 at the latest.

  7. Lincoln

      I’m not sure I’d call most of wallace’s non-fiction “journalism”

  8. Lincoln

      I’m not sure I’d call most of wallace’s non-fiction “journalism”

  9. David

      Agreed, at least not in the traditional sense.

      With that said, even though I love his fiction, I find the nonfiction to be his most interesting work. To call it pedestrian seems a bit harsh.

  10. David

      Agreed, at least not in the traditional sense.

      With that said, even though I love his fiction, I find the nonfiction to be his most interesting work. To call it pedestrian seems a bit harsh.

  11. Nick Antosca

      Ellis has some perverse desire to provoke what he considers the “literary establishment,” I think. He seems to carry bitterness about the mixed-to-negative critical reception for every book he’s ever written, and he has this impulse to shock.

  12. Nick Antosca

      Ellis has some perverse desire to provoke what he considers the “literary establishment,” I think. He seems to carry bitterness about the mixed-to-negative critical reception for every book he’s ever written, and he has this impulse to shock.

  13. Schulyer Prinz

      i would probably put money on option c: he’s never even tried to read it.

  14. Schulyer Prinz

      i would probably put money on option c: he’s never even tried to read it.

  15. Anderson

      Well you know BEE and Jay McInerney are buddies, and McIerney made that huge stink about how unreadable Infinite Jest was as soon as it came out, back before it got all the acclaim it eventually got. Ellis’ style is much different, if you asked me to tell you which was better: American Psycho or Infinite Jest, I’d say they’re incomparable. Those are two books that might show up at the same bar, but they’d never sit at the table together unless they had some mutual friend. They aren’t in dialogue and they’d never want to be.

  16. Anderson

      Well you know BEE and Jay McInerney are buddies, and McIerney made that huge stink about how unreadable Infinite Jest was as soon as it came out, back before it got all the acclaim it eventually got. Ellis’ style is much different, if you asked me to tell you which was better: American Psycho or Infinite Jest, I’d say they’re incomparable. Those are two books that might show up at the same bar, but they’d never sit at the table together unless they had some mutual friend. They aren’t in dialogue and they’d never want to be.

  17. Giovanni
  18. Giovanni
  19. Igor

      Wallace on Ellis and American Psycho:

      “You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writ-
      ing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others
      depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporar y condition is hopelessly shitty,
      insipid, mater ialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any
      wr iter) can get away with slapping together stor ies with characters who are stupid, vapid,
      emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no develop-
      ment. With descr iptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where
      stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad wr iting—
      flat characters, a nar rative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also
      a descr iption of today’s world, then bad wr iting becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad
      world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can
      wr ite a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentar y on the
      badness of ever ything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark
      times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how
      dark and stupid ever ything is?”

  20. Igor

      Wallace on Ellis and American Psycho:

      “You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writ-
      ing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others
      depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporar y condition is hopelessly shitty,
      insipid, mater ialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any
      wr iter) can get away with slapping together stor ies with characters who are stupid, vapid,
      emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no develop-
      ment. With descr iptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where
      stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad wr iting—
      flat characters, a nar rative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also
      a descr iption of today’s world, then bad wr iting becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad
      world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can
      wr ite a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentar y on the
      badness of ever ything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark
      times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how
      dark and stupid ever ything is?”

  21. Tony O'Neill

      Or maybe he just doesn’t rate his stuff? Why does it have to be about provoking the literary establishment, or settling old scores?

      Is DFW really above criticism now that he died or something?

  22. Tony O'Neill

      Or maybe he just doesn’t rate his stuff? Why does it have to be about provoking the literary establishment, or settling old scores?

      Is DFW really above criticism now that he died or something?

  23. Igor

      eek sorry for the icky formatting, can someone get rid of that? let’s try again:

      Wallace on Ellis, American Psycho:

      You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporar y condition is hopelessly shitty, insipid, mater ialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any
      wr iter) can get away with slapping together stor ies with characters who are stupid, vapid, emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no development. With descr iptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad writing—
      flat characters, a narrative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also a description of today’s world, then bad wr iting becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can write a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentar y on the badness of ever ything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid ever ything is?

  24. John Fahey

      JOEL JORDON is a leading expert on DFW.

  25. Igor

      eek sorry for the icky formatting, can someone get rid of that? let’s try again:

      Wallace on Ellis, American Psycho:

      You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporar y condition is hopelessly shitty, insipid, mater ialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any
      wr iter) can get away with slapping together stor ies with characters who are stupid, vapid, emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no development. With descr iptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad writing—
      flat characters, a narrative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also a description of today’s world, then bad wr iting becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can write a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentar y on the badness of ever ything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid ever ything is?

  26. John Fahey

      JOEL JORDON is a leading expert on DFW.

  27. ryan

      I love the way those two F’s in ‘stuff’ keep coming out.

  28. ryan

      I love the way those two F’s in ‘stuff’ keep coming out.

  29. ryan

      DFW isn’t above criticism. But calling IJ ‘unreadable’ is kinda goofy; what, was it written in code? And while I’m not as enamored by DFW’s nonfiction stuff as many are, BEE calling any other writer’s work pedestrian is maybe the height of unintentional humor.

  30. ryan

      DFW isn’t above criticism. But calling IJ ‘unreadable’ is kinda goofy; what, was it written in code? And while I’m not as enamored by DFW’s nonfiction stuff as many are, BEE calling any other writer’s work pedestrian is maybe the height of unintentional humor.

  31. stephen

      yeah, i was going to say, dfw didn’t care for bret. however, dfw criticized bret in a thoughtful way, i thought. hmm… i don’t like bret’s reasoning behind not liking dfw’s writing. i think it isn’t hard to criticize dfw’s writing (or anyone’s writing), but i don’t like his reasoning. IJ is highly readable, I think that’s pretty much a fact, to call the journalism pedestrian is silly in numerous ways (it’s not meant to be journalism in the conventional sense, the average pedestrian couldn’t write it, etc.), and the dismissive phrase “that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality” indicates he’s cynical and reductive. sounds like he’s just being bitchy and “settling scores.” probably is tired of everyone fellating the other three-name hip writer guy.

  32. stephen

      yeah, i was going to say, dfw didn’t care for bret. however, dfw criticized bret in a thoughtful way, i thought. hmm… i don’t like bret’s reasoning behind not liking dfw’s writing. i think it isn’t hard to criticize dfw’s writing (or anyone’s writing), but i don’t like his reasoning. IJ is highly readable, I think that’s pretty much a fact, to call the journalism pedestrian is silly in numerous ways (it’s not meant to be journalism in the conventional sense, the average pedestrian couldn’t write it, etc.), and the dismissive phrase “that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality” indicates he’s cynical and reductive. sounds like he’s just being bitchy and “settling scores.” probably is tired of everyone fellating the other three-name hip writer guy.

  33. stephen

      on second thought, i can imagine bret answering in that way with no agenda, or no bitterness/jealousy. seems possible.

  34. stephen

      on second thought, i can imagine bret answering in that way with no agenda, or no bitterness/jealousy. seems possible.

  35. Matt

      Pedestrian? Unreadable? These aren’t honest criticisms, they’re just empty, lazy statements. They’re not useful, illuminating, or even credible. At least DFW has a larger point he was making when he was bashing BEE…

  36. Matt

      Pedestrian? Unreadable? These aren’t honest criticisms, they’re just empty, lazy statements. They’re not useful, illuminating, or even credible. At least DFW has a larger point he was making when he was bashing BEE…

  37. Jordan

      Or alternatively, he’s speaking his mind.

  38. Jordan

      Or alternatively, he’s speaking his mind.

  39. Tony O'Neill

      Well, I find it kinda unreadable as well not in the sense that it was written in code, just in the sense that it leaves me cold. (Although I could say the same for most of what Ellis has written post American Psycho)

      While I admire the technical aspect of DFW did, its in the same way that I can admire the technical / musical prowess behind a 10 minute Yes guitar solo…. it just doesnt mean that I’d want to listen to it for pleasure.

  40. Tony O'Neill

      Well, I find it kinda unreadable as well not in the sense that it was written in code, just in the sense that it leaves me cold. (Although I could say the same for most of what Ellis has written post American Psycho)

      While I admire the technical aspect of DFW did, its in the same way that I can admire the technical / musical prowess behind a 10 minute Yes guitar solo…. it just doesnt mean that I’d want to listen to it for pleasure.

  41. brandon

      For me, the first reaction that surfaced was ‘oh, BEE’s got some jealousy issues,’ but Tony’s right, maybe he just plain ol’ doesn’t like his stuff? I’d like to see detailed criticisms, I’m curious to what he finds ‘pedestrian.’

      “Unreadable” is pretty silly though, not a label I would quickly slap onto a book I first read when I was 20 and high out of my mind (a state which I think BEE could easily relate to), a time at which I found many, many things unreadable.

  42. brandon

      For me, the first reaction that surfaced was ‘oh, BEE’s got some jealousy issues,’ but Tony’s right, maybe he just plain ol’ doesn’t like his stuff? I’d like to see detailed criticisms, I’m curious to what he finds ‘pedestrian.’

      “Unreadable” is pretty silly though, not a label I would quickly slap onto a book I first read when I was 20 and high out of my mind (a state which I think BEE could easily relate to), a time at which I found many, many things unreadable.

  43. Steven Augustine

      Not that I don’t think DFW’s “Great White Narcissist” attack on Updike’s “Toward the End of Time” wasn’t just as wrong-headed (though in much greater detail). Upshot: writers, like everyone else, can be bitches.

  44. Steven Augustine

      Not that I don’t think DFW’s “Great White Narcissist” attack on Updike’s “Toward the End of Time” wasn’t just as wrong-headed (though in much greater detail). Upshot: writers, like everyone else, can be bitches.

  45. Heather Christle

      GUBBINAL

      That strange flower, the sun,
      Is just what you say.
      Have it your way.

      The world is ugly,
      And the people are sad.

      That tuft of jungle feathers,
      That animal eye,
      Is just what you say.

      That savage of fire,
      That seed,
      Have it your way.

      The world is ugly,
      And the people are sad.

      -Wallace Stevens

  46. Heather Christle

      GUBBINAL

      That strange flower, the sun,
      Is just what you say.
      Have it your way.

      The world is ugly,
      And the people are sad.

      That tuft of jungle feathers,
      That animal eye,
      Is just what you say.

      That savage of fire,
      That seed,
      Have it your way.

      The world is ugly,
      And the people are sad.

      -Wallace Stevens

  47. addy

      good analogy

  48. addy

      good analogy

  49. BAC

      Why is it to soon to answer this question?

      Is Ellis supposed to pretend that he liked Wallace’s works for a few years just because the guy killed himself?

      What if the day before Wallace killed himself Ellis had said, “I don’t like Wallace’s writing,” would he then, just two days later, have to augment his previously held stance for the sake of–respect for the dead?

      He’s not talking shit about Wallace the person. He’s just saying he doesn’t like his writing. Big deal. Who give a shit what Ellis thinks anyhow?

  50. BAC

      Why is it to soon to answer this question?

      Is Ellis supposed to pretend that he liked Wallace’s works for a few years just because the guy killed himself?

      What if the day before Wallace killed himself Ellis had said, “I don’t like Wallace’s writing,” would he then, just two days later, have to augment his previously held stance for the sake of–respect for the dead?

      He’s not talking shit about Wallace the person. He’s just saying he doesn’t like his writing. Big deal. Who give a shit what Ellis thinks anyhow?

  51. Puke

      Ouch. Wallace absolutely bitch-slapped Ellis, rhetorically. No wonder Ellis doesn’t like Wallace. I wouldn’t like him either if he dissected me with such ease and eloquence. Everything Wallace said about Ellis is true, and I happen to enjoy reading Ellis. But Wallace was playing on a different field with different equipment. Anyone who says IJ is impossible to read hasn’t even cracked open the book. Yes, it’s huge and erudite, but there’s nothing, on a sentence by sentence level, that anyone with an 8th grade reading comprehension couldn’t understand. Ellis is bringing a knife to gun fight. If he wasn’t such a brat he would know that he can’t win this battle, and he would dismiss the question with a polite banality.

  52. Puke

      Ouch. Wallace absolutely bitch-slapped Ellis, rhetorically. No wonder Ellis doesn’t like Wallace. I wouldn’t like him either if he dissected me with such ease and eloquence. Everything Wallace said about Ellis is true, and I happen to enjoy reading Ellis. But Wallace was playing on a different field with different equipment. Anyone who says IJ is impossible to read hasn’t even cracked open the book. Yes, it’s huge and erudite, but there’s nothing, on a sentence by sentence level, that anyone with an 8th grade reading comprehension couldn’t understand. Ellis is bringing a knife to gun fight. If he wasn’t such a brat he would know that he can’t win this battle, and he would dismiss the question with a polite banality.

  53. ce.

      2nd. That was nicely put.

  54. ce.

      2nd. That was nicely put.

  55. marshall

      It seems that DFW passage posted by Igor goes on for a few more sentences.

      […] Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid everything is? In dark times, the definition of good art would seem to be art that locates and applies CPR to those elements of what’s human and magical that still live and glow despite the times’ darkness. Really good fiction could have as dark a worldview as it wished, but it’d find a way both to depict this world and to illuminate the possibilities for being alive and human in it. You can defend “Psycho” as being a sort of performative digest of late-eighties social problems, but it’s no more than that.

      [Source: http://www.thehowlingfantods.com/dfw/news/general-updates/bret-easton-ellis-on-dfw.html%5D

      Did DFW “defeat” BEE with this paragraph? Does BEE dislike DFW because DFW successfully argued that BEE is a “bad writer”? [Note that DFW is a person who unsarcastically calls himself a “good writer” in interviews.] Does BEE think DFW is a “bad writer”? Are the things that DFW and BEE are saying here “even” “true”? Let’s think about these things.

      BEE says “[t]he journalism is pedestrian.” I guess “pedestrian” means “ordinary.” This seems like an unverifiable statement. BEE says “the stories scattered and full of that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality.” I remember DFW talking about seeing this “Mid-Western faux-sentimentality” in his own non-fiction pieces. I guess this is whatever. BEE says “Infinite Jest is unreadable.” I guess “unreadable” means “hard to read.” Infinite Jest does seem harder to read than “most” books. I guess this is whatever, though, too.

      In the DFW thing, I guess the “you’re” is addressing the interviewer. The passage posted by Igor is in response to the interviewer saying “But at least in the case of ‘American Psycho’ I felt there was something more than just this desire to inflict pain—or that Ellis was being cruel the way you said serious artists need to be willing to be.” I’m sort of intrigued by DFW mentioning readers being “manipulated by bad writing,” like they are being “tricked” somehow. I guess DFW is saying that BEE et al need people to think that the “world is bad, dull, and stupid,” so they can write “bad books” employing “bad writing” with “dull characters doing/saying stupid things” and have it perceived as being “genius satire” or something. And I guess that writing these “bad books” is “too easy.” I guess DFW thinks that BEE is too “nihilistic” and that “nihilistic art” can’t be “great art” because it doesn’t “illuminate” or provide new “possibilities of living” or whatever.

      I guess this all whatever. I don’t know.

  56. marshall

      It seems that DFW passage posted by Igor goes on for a few more sentences.

      […] Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid everything is? In dark times, the definition of good art would seem to be art that locates and applies CPR to those elements of what’s human and magical that still live and glow despite the times’ darkness. Really good fiction could have as dark a worldview as it wished, but it’d find a way both to depict this world and to illuminate the possibilities for being alive and human in it. You can defend “Psycho” as being a sort of performative digest of late-eighties social problems, but it’s no more than that.

      [Source: http://www.thehowlingfantods.com/dfw/news/general-updates/bret-easton-ellis-on-dfw.html%5D

      Did DFW “defeat” BEE with this paragraph? Does BEE dislike DFW because DFW successfully argued that BEE is a “bad writer”? [Note that DFW is a person who unsarcastically calls himself a “good writer” in interviews.] Does BEE think DFW is a “bad writer”? Are the things that DFW and BEE are saying here “even” “true”? Let’s think about these things.

      BEE says “[t]he journalism is pedestrian.” I guess “pedestrian” means “ordinary.” This seems like an unverifiable statement. BEE says “the stories scattered and full of that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality.” I remember DFW talking about seeing this “Mid-Western faux-sentimentality” in his own non-fiction pieces. I guess this is whatever. BEE says “Infinite Jest is unreadable.” I guess “unreadable” means “hard to read.” Infinite Jest does seem harder to read than “most” books. I guess this is whatever, though, too.

      In the DFW thing, I guess the “you’re” is addressing the interviewer. The passage posted by Igor is in response to the interviewer saying “But at least in the case of ‘American Psycho’ I felt there was something more than just this desire to inflict pain—or that Ellis was being cruel the way you said serious artists need to be willing to be.” I’m sort of intrigued by DFW mentioning readers being “manipulated by bad writing,” like they are being “tricked” somehow. I guess DFW is saying that BEE et al need people to think that the “world is bad, dull, and stupid,” so they can write “bad books” employing “bad writing” with “dull characters doing/saying stupid things” and have it perceived as being “genius satire” or something. And I guess that writing these “bad books” is “too easy.” I guess DFW thinks that BEE is too “nihilistic” and that “nihilistic art” can’t be “great art” because it doesn’t “illuminate” or provide new “possibilities of living” or whatever.

      I guess this all whatever. I don’t know.

  57. marshall

      Misplaced a “]” in there.

  58. d

      DFW has also said that he liked Ellis’ first novel.

  59. marshall

      Misplaced a “]” in there.

  60. d

      DFW has also said that he liked Ellis’ first novel.

  61. Patrick

      Agreed that it’s a bit too soon to be answering this as well as his thought’s on DFW’s journalism but to say Infinite Jest is unreadable is either admitting that he’s an unambitious reader, which is hard to believe coming from a fellow author, or just jealous.

  62. ryan

      When did DFW call himself a good writer?

  63. ryan

      When did DFW call himself a good writer?

  64. donnie wahlberg

      this thread is going to be good

  65. Steven Augustine

      I can’t wait to read about BEE’s blunt-object murder/rape by a low-rent hustler. 2016 at the latest.

  66. Laryssa

      I agree. I mean, if he genuinely feels this way about Wallace’s work, he could have provided a more genuine answer. The only type of person who asks, “Is it too soon?” is the type of person who likes to be a jerk.

      Most people I know who like Wallace don’t love everything he’s written, but I never found that his death kept anyone from discussing his work in a spirited manner. Ellis is such a little douche, and I hope that Karma beats the shit out of him. I am not very familiar with his work, but I have neither respect for him nor any desire to read his books.

  67. Laryssa

      I agree. I mean, if he genuinely feels this way about Wallace’s work, he could have provided a more genuine answer. The only type of person who asks, “Is it too soon?” is the type of person who likes to be a jerk.

      Most people I know who like Wallace don’t love everything he’s written, but I never found that his death kept anyone from discussing his work in a spirited manner. Ellis is such a little douche, and I hope that Karma beats the shit out of him. I am not very familiar with his work, but I have neither respect for him nor any desire to read his books.

  68. Lincoln

      I’m not sure I’d call most of wallace’s non-fiction “journalism”

  69. David

      Agreed, at least not in the traditional sense.

      With that said, even though I love his fiction, I find the nonfiction to be his most interesting work. To call it pedestrian seems a bit harsh.

  70. Nick Antosca

      Ellis has some perverse desire to provoke what he considers the “literary establishment,” I think. He seems to carry bitterness about the mixed-to-negative critical reception for every book he’s ever written, and he has this impulse to shock.

  71. Schulyer Prinz

      i would probably put money on option c: he’s never even tried to read it.

  72. Anderson

      Well you know BEE and Jay McInerney are buddies, and McIerney made that huge stink about how unreadable Infinite Jest was as soon as it came out, back before it got all the acclaim it eventually got. Ellis’ style is much different, if you asked me to tell you which was better: American Psycho or Infinite Jest, I’d say they’re incomparable. Those are two books that might show up at the same bar, but they’d never sit at the table together unless they had some mutual friend. They aren’t in dialogue and they’d never want to be.

  73. Giovanni
  74. Igor

      Wallace on Ellis and American Psycho:

      “You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writ-
      ing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others
      depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporar y condition is hopelessly shitty,
      insipid, mater ialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any
      wr iter) can get away with slapping together stor ies with characters who are stupid, vapid,
      emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no develop-
      ment. With descr iptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where
      stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad wr iting—
      flat characters, a nar rative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also
      a descr iption of today’s world, then bad wr iting becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad
      world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can
      wr ite a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentar y on the
      badness of ever ything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark
      times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how
      dark and stupid ever ything is?”

  75. Tony O'Neill

      Or maybe he just doesn’t rate his stuff? Why does it have to be about provoking the literary establishment, or settling old scores?

      Is DFW really above criticism now that he died or something?

  76. marshall

      http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw970515david_foster_wallace

      At 6:23 in DFW’s Bookworm interview from 1997, he says:

      […] People from the Midwest are expected to be not only non-hip but several IQ points slower and it can be extremely useful. People will reveal themselves to you in ways that they wouldn’t to another East Coaster. And I think… a lot these were complex because not only was I dealing with topics that I didn’t know all that well but I was also doing them for magazines, and East Coast magazines. I’m not used to being edited very closely. I was very anxious. And I think there’s a a certain amount of construction of the kind of… and it is, it’s somewhat of an ironic pose because I’m bright and I’m a good writer. It’s not like I’m, you know, shaking the straw out of my hair as I’m going to these things. […]

  77. marshall

      http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw970515david_foster_wallace

      At 6:23 in DFW’s Bookworm interview from 1997, he says:

      […] People from the Midwest are expected to be not only non-hip but several IQ points slower and it can be extremely useful. People will reveal themselves to you in ways that they wouldn’t to another East Coaster. And I think… a lot these were complex because not only was I dealing with topics that I didn’t know all that well but I was also doing them for magazines, and East Coast magazines. I’m not used to being edited very closely. I was very anxious. And I think there’s a a certain amount of construction of the kind of… and it is, it’s somewhat of an ironic pose because I’m bright and I’m a good writer. It’s not like I’m, you know, shaking the straw out of my hair as I’m going to these things. […]

  78. Igor

      eek sorry for the icky formatting, can someone get rid of that? let’s try again:

      Wallace on Ellis, American Psycho:

      You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporar y condition is hopelessly shitty, insipid, mater ialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any
      wr iter) can get away with slapping together stor ies with characters who are stupid, vapid, emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no development. With descr iptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad writing—
      flat characters, a narrative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also a description of today’s world, then bad wr iting becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can write a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentar y on the badness of ever ything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid ever ything is?

  79. John Fahey

      JOEL JORDON is a leading expert on DFW.

  80. marshall

      There’s a “double a” in there. That’s a typo. It’s weird transcribing people talking, though. It’s hard to tell where one sentence ends and another begins.

  81. marshall

      There’s a “double a” in there. That’s a typo. It’s weird transcribing people talking, though. It’s hard to tell where one sentence ends and another begins.

  82. ryan

      I love the way those two F’s in ‘stuff’ keep coming out.

  83. ryan

      DFW isn’t above criticism. But calling IJ ‘unreadable’ is kinda goofy; what, was it written in code? And while I’m not as enamored by DFW’s nonfiction stuff as many are, BEE calling any other writer’s work pedestrian is maybe the height of unintentional humor.

  84. stephen

      yeah, i was going to say, dfw didn’t care for bret. however, dfw criticized bret in a thoughtful way, i thought. hmm… i don’t like bret’s reasoning behind not liking dfw’s writing. i think it isn’t hard to criticize dfw’s writing (or anyone’s writing), but i don’t like his reasoning. IJ is highly readable, I think that’s pretty much a fact, to call the journalism pedestrian is silly in numerous ways (it’s not meant to be journalism in the conventional sense, the average pedestrian couldn’t write it, etc.), and the dismissive phrase “that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality” indicates he’s cynical and reductive. sounds like he’s just being bitchy and “settling scores.” probably is tired of everyone fellating the other three-name hip writer guy.

  85. stephen

      on second thought, i can imagine bret answering in that way with no agenda, or no bitterness/jealousy. seems possible.

  86. Matt

      Pedestrian? Unreadable? These aren’t honest criticisms, they’re just empty, lazy statements. They’re not useful, illuminating, or even credible. At least DFW has a larger point he was making when he was bashing BEE…

  87. Jordan

      Or alternatively, he’s speaking his mind.

  88. Tony O'Neill

      Well, I find it kinda unreadable as well not in the sense that it was written in code, just in the sense that it leaves me cold. (Although I could say the same for most of what Ellis has written post American Psycho)

      While I admire the technical aspect of DFW did, its in the same way that I can admire the technical / musical prowess behind a 10 minute Yes guitar solo…. it just doesnt mean that I’d want to listen to it for pleasure.

  89. brandon

      For me, the first reaction that surfaced was ‘oh, BEE’s got some jealousy issues,’ but Tony’s right, maybe he just plain ol’ doesn’t like his stuff? I’d like to see detailed criticisms, I’m curious to what he finds ‘pedestrian.’

      “Unreadable” is pretty silly though, not a label I would quickly slap onto a book I first read when I was 20 and high out of my mind (a state which I think BEE could easily relate to), a time at which I found many, many things unreadable.

  90. Steven Augustine

      Not that I don’t think DFW’s “Great White Narcissist” attack on Updike’s “Toward the End of Time” wasn’t just as wrong-headed (though in much greater detail). Upshot: writers, like everyone else, can be bitches.

  91. Heather Christle

      GUBBINAL

      That strange flower, the sun,
      Is just what you say.
      Have it your way.

      The world is ugly,
      And the people are sad.

      That tuft of jungle feathers,
      That animal eye,
      Is just what you say.

      That savage of fire,
      That seed,
      Have it your way.

      The world is ugly,
      And the people are sad.

      -Wallace Stevens

  92. addy

      good analogy

  93. BAC

      Why is it to soon to answer this question?

      Is Ellis supposed to pretend that he liked Wallace’s works for a few years just because the guy killed himself?

      What if the day before Wallace killed himself Ellis had said, “I don’t like Wallace’s writing,” would he then, just two days later, have to augment his previously held stance for the sake of–respect for the dead?

      He’s not talking shit about Wallace the person. He’s just saying he doesn’t like his writing. Big deal. Who give a shit what Ellis thinks anyhow?

  94. Bret Easton Ellis Disses David Foster Wallace « biblioklept

      […] HTMLGIANT, via The Howling Fantods. The discussion at HTMLGIANT’s comment section is pretty great right […]

  95. Puke

      Ouch. Wallace absolutely bitch-slapped Ellis, rhetorically. No wonder Ellis doesn’t like Wallace. I wouldn’t like him either if he dissected me with such ease and eloquence. Everything Wallace said about Ellis is true, and I happen to enjoy reading Ellis. But Wallace was playing on a different field with different equipment. Anyone who says IJ is impossible to read hasn’t even cracked open the book. Yes, it’s huge and erudite, but there’s nothing, on a sentence by sentence level, that anyone with an 8th grade reading comprehension couldn’t understand. Ellis is bringing a knife to gun fight. If he wasn’t such a brat he would know that he can’t win this battle, and he would dismiss the question with a polite banality.

  96. Ronnie

      I just bought plane-ticket-priced tickets (not rly, but expensiveish) to see Bret Easton Ellis in Melbourne. I feel sick, but I might not in the morning. “HERE’S HOPING!”

  97. Ronnie

      I just bought plane-ticket-priced tickets (not rly, but expensiveish) to see Bret Easton Ellis in Melbourne. I feel sick, but I might not in the morning. “HERE’S HOPING!”

  98. Janey Smith

      I like both Bret Easton Ellis and David Foster Wallace and I hope to keep learning from both of them. The ways that they ‘take each other on’ is reminiscent of the ways Foucault and Derrida used ‘to pick on each other.’ Their styles are different. I like that.

  99. Janey Smith

      I like both Bret Easton Ellis and David Foster Wallace and I hope to keep learning from both of them. The ways that they ‘take each other on’ is reminiscent of the ways Foucault and Derrida used ‘to pick on each other.’ Their styles are different. I like that.

  100. ce.

      2nd. That was nicely put.

  101. Guest

      It seems that DFW passage posted by Igor goes on for a few more sentences.

      […] Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid everything is? In dark times, the definition of good art would seem to be art that locates and applies CPR to those elements of what’s human and magical that still live and glow despite the times’ darkness. Really good fiction could have as dark a worldview as it wished, but it’d find a way both to depict this world and to illuminate the possibilities for being alive and human in it. You can defend “Psycho” as being a sort of performative digest of late-eighties social problems, but it’s no more than that.

      [Source: http://www.thehowlingfantods.com/dfw/news/general-updates/bret-easton-ellis-on-dfw.html%5D

      Did DFW “defeat” BEE with this paragraph? Does BEE dislike DFW because DFW successfully argued that BEE is a “bad writer”? [Note that DFW is a person who unsarcastically calls himself a “good writer” in interviews.] Does BEE think DFW is a “bad writer”? Are the things that DFW and BEE are saying here “even” “true”? Let’s think about these things.

      BEE says “[t]he journalism is pedestrian.” I guess “pedestrian” means “ordinary.” This seems like an unverifiable statement. BEE says “the stories scattered and full of that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality.” I remember DFW talking about seeing this “Mid-Western faux-sentimentality” in his own non-fiction pieces. I guess this is whatever. BEE says “Infinite Jest is unreadable.” I guess “unreadable” means “hard to read.” Infinite Jest does seem harder to read than “most” books. I guess this is whatever, though, too.

      In the DFW thing, I guess the “you’re” is addressing the interviewer. The passage posted by Igor is in response to the interviewer saying “But at least in the case of ‘American Psycho’ I felt there was something more than just this desire to inflict pain—or that Ellis was being cruel the way you said serious artists need to be willing to be.” I’m sort of intrigued by DFW mentioning readers being “manipulated by bad writing,” like they are being “tricked” somehow. I guess DFW is saying that BEE et al need people to think that the “world is bad, dull, and stupid,” so they can write “bad books” employing “bad writing” with “dull characters doing/saying stupid things” and have it perceived as being “genius satire” or something. And I guess that writing these “bad books” is “too easy.” I guess DFW thinks that BEE is too “nihilistic” and that “nihilistic art” can’t be “great art” because it doesn’t “illuminate” or provide new “possibilities of living” or whatever.

      I guess this all whatever. I don’t know.

  102. Guest

      Misplaced a “]” in there.

  103. d

      DFW has also said that he liked Ellis’ first novel.

  104. ryan

      When did DFW call himself a good writer?

  105. Laryssa

      I agree. I mean, if he genuinely feels this way about Wallace’s work, he could have provided a more genuine answer. The only type of person who asks, “Is it too soon?” is the type of person who likes to be a jerk.

      Most people I know who like Wallace don’t love everything he’s written, but I never found that his death kept anyone from discussing his work in a spirited manner. Ellis is such a little douche, and I hope that Karma beats the shit out of him. I am not very familiar with his work, but I have neither respect for him nor any desire to read his books.

  106. Ridge

      Easton Ellis likes to talk crazy shit to get a rise out of people, which is unfortunate. He applauds Salinger’s death. Says women can’t make movies because they can’t think visually. Claims Infinite Jest is unreadable. And on and on. He’s fast becoming the Howard Stern of literature. This is exactly why I have no opinion on the man either way. If you like him or hate him he wins. I remain neutral.

  107. Ridge

      Easton Ellis likes to talk crazy shit to get a rise out of people, which is unfortunate. He applauds Salinger’s death. Says women can’t make movies because they can’t think visually. Claims Infinite Jest is unreadable. And on and on. He’s fast becoming the Howard Stern of literature. This is exactly why I have no opinion on the man either way. If you like him or hate him he wins. I remain neutral.

  108. L.

      His work is so David Foster Wallace-lite I have a hard time imaging he doesn’t really like him except out of jealousy.

  109. MFBomb

      “that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality”

      Nope, BEE, your work certainly doesn’t possess any faux-NYC hipster sentimentality. None at all.

  110. L.

      His work is so David Foster Wallace-lite I have a hard time imaging he doesn’t really like him except out of jealousy.

  111. MFBomb

      “that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality”

      Nope, BEE, your work certainly doesn’t possess any faux-NYC hipster sentimentality. None at all.

  112. Guest

      http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw970515david_foster_wallace

      At 6:23 in DFW’s Bookworm interview from 1997, he says:

      […] People from the Midwest are expected to be not only non-hip but several IQ points slower and it can be extremely useful. People will reveal themselves to you in ways that they wouldn’t to another East Coaster. And I think… a lot these were complex because not only was I dealing with topics that I didn’t know all that well but I was also doing them for magazines, and East Coast magazines. I’m not used to being edited very closely. I was very anxious. And I think there’s a a certain amount of construction of the kind of… and it is, it’s somewhat of an ironic pose because I’m bright and I’m a good writer. It’s not like I’m, you know, shaking the straw out of my hair as I’m going to these things. […]

  113. Guest

      There’s a “double a” in there. That’s a typo. It’s weird transcribing people talking, though. It’s hard to tell where one sentence ends and another begins.

  114. Christian

      The guitar solo analogy is perfect. Thanks, Tony. Wallace has always felt a bit cold to me, too.

  115. Christian

      The guitar solo analogy is perfect. Thanks, Tony. Wallace has always felt a bit cold to me, too.

  116. michael

      if someone took a big eloquent dump on my life’s work i wouldn’t be able to read his book either

  117. michael

      if someone took a big eloquent dump on my life’s work i wouldn’t be able to read his book either

  118. Ronnie

      I just bought plane-ticket-priced tickets (not rly, but expensiveish) to see Bret Easton Ellis in Melbourne. I feel sick, but I might not in the morning. “HERE’S HOPING!”

  119. Janey Smith

      I like both Bret Easton Ellis and David Foster Wallace and I hope to keep learning from both of them. The ways that they ‘take each other on’ is reminiscent of the ways Foucault and Derrida used ‘to pick on each other.’ Their styles are different. I like that.

  120. zusya

      “Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid everything is?”

      um… isn’t this Infinite Jest’s entire conceit?

  121. did u read it

      the added element in IJ is bros bro down at the Alkies Anonymous and realize they r “human after all,” and if they “just” “take life one day at a time,” it will be OK, maybe

  122. did u read it

      the added element in IJ is bros bro down at the Alkies Anonymous and realize they r “human after all,” and if they “just” “take life one day at a time,” it will be OK, maybe

  123. marshall

      i think the central question of IJ is ‘r we human or r we dancer’

  124. marshall

      i think the central question of IJ is ‘r we human or r we dancer’

  125. marshall

      i mean ‘central conceit’ maybe

  126. marshall

      i mean ‘central conceit’ maybe

  127. zusya17

      @did u read it

      so people realize they’re human after all, and can just take life one day at a time… which enables them to overcome ‘how dark and stupid everything is’?

      @marshall

      ‘dancer’?

  128. Ridge

      Easton Ellis likes to talk crazy shit to get a rise out of people, which is unfortunate. He applauds Salinger’s death. Says women can’t make movies because they can’t think visually. Claims Infinite Jest is unreadable. And on and on. He’s fast becoming the Howard Stern of literature. This is exactly why I have no opinion on the man either way. If you like him or hate him he wins. I remain neutral.

  129. L.

      His work is so David Foster Wallace-lite I have a hard time imaging he doesn’t really like him except out of jealousy.

  130. Guest

      “that Mid-Western faux-sentimentality”

      Nope, BEE, your work certainly doesn’t possess any faux-NYC hipster sentimentality. None at all.

  131. marshall
  132. marshall
  133. marshall
  134. marshall
  135. Nathan Goldman

      I’m baffled by the use of “pedestrian” to describe DFW’s “journalism” (I echo the above complaints that DFW didn’t mean most of his nonfiction pieces to be journalistic by the standard definition). I can see not liking it, or thinking it’s rambly or imprecise or self-involved – but even if you hate it, it is difficult to deny its uniqueness, technical complexity, and non-standardness (even in the weirder-than-journalism world of creative nonfiction).

      And of course it’s absurd to call Infinite Jest “unreadable” unless your only context is the page count. I’m 18 years old and it’s dense, but it isn’t difficult.

  136. Nathan Goldman

      I’m baffled by the use of “pedestrian” to describe DFW’s “journalism” (I echo the above complaints that DFW didn’t mean most of his nonfiction pieces to be journalistic by the standard definition). I can see not liking it, or thinking it’s rambly or imprecise or self-involved – but even if you hate it, it is difficult to deny its uniqueness, technical complexity, and non-standardness (even in the weirder-than-journalism world of creative nonfiction).

      And of course it’s absurd to call Infinite Jest “unreadable” unless your only context is the page count. I’m 18 years old and it’s dense, but it isn’t difficult.

  137. Christian

      The guitar solo analogy is perfect. Thanks, Tony. Wallace has always felt a bit cold to me, too.

  138. michael

      if someone took a big eloquent dump on my life’s work i wouldn’t be able to read his book either

  139. did u read it

      the added element in IJ is bros bro down at the Alkies Anonymous and realize they r “human after all,” and if they “just” “take life one day at a time,” it will be OK, maybe

  140. Guest

      i think the central question of IJ is ‘r we human or r we dancer’

  141. Guest

      i mean ‘central conceit’ maybe

  142. Guest
  143. Guest
  144. Nathan Goldman

      I’m baffled by the use of “pedestrian” to describe DFW’s “journalism” (I echo the above complaints that DFW didn’t mean most of his nonfiction pieces to be journalistic by the standard definition). I can see not liking it, or thinking it’s rambly or imprecise or self-involved – but even if you hate it, it is difficult to deny its uniqueness, technical complexity, and non-standardness (even in the weirder-than-journalism world of creative nonfiction).

      And of course it’s absurd to call Infinite Jest “unreadable” unless your only context is the page count. I’m 18 years old and it’s dense, but it isn’t difficult.

  145. Tom K

      my friend was at this q and a so i asked him about it. He says the above transcription of BEE’s comments isn’t accurate, that Bret Easton Ellis said that he personally hadn’t been able to finish infinite jest. My friend also said that, from his perspective, Bret Easton Ellis wasn’t dissing DFW as much as saying that it just wasn’t the kind of work he was interested in.
      I think DFW’s reading of American Psycho is ham-strung by his own obsessive idea of what literature is and can be…it’s a reading tied very much to a doctrine. I love DFW discovering his work has blown my mind these last two years but i think he’s wrong about BEE’s writing.

  146. Tom K

      my friend was at this q and a so i asked him about it. He says the above transcription of BEE’s comments isn’t accurate, that Bret Easton Ellis said that he personally hadn’t been able to finish infinite jest. My friend also said that, from his perspective, Bret Easton Ellis wasn’t dissing DFW as much as saying that it just wasn’t the kind of work he was interested in.
      I think DFW’s reading of American Psycho is ham-strung by his own obsessive idea of what literature is and can be…it’s a reading tied very much to a doctrine. I love DFW discovering his work has blown my mind these last two years but i think he’s wrong about BEE’s writing.

  147. Pemulis

      DFW is great, but point me to a character he’s “developed”. Just sour grapes all around.

  148. Pemulis

      DFW is great, but point me to a character he’s “developed”. Just sour grapes all around.

  149. Blake Butler

      character development.

      you might want to steer towards TV more often than books

  150. Blake Butler

      character development.

      you might want to steer towards TV more often than books

  151. Tom K

      my friend was at this q and a so i asked him about it. He says the above transcription of BEE’s comments isn’t accurate, that Bret Easton Ellis said that he personally hadn’t been able to finish infinite jest. My friend also said that, from his perspective, Bret Easton Ellis wasn’t dissing DFW as much as saying that it just wasn’t the kind of work he was interested in.
      I think DFW’s reading of American Psycho is ham-strung by his own obsessive idea of what literature is and can be…it’s a reading tied very much to a doctrine. I love DFW discovering his work has blown my mind these last two years but i think he’s wrong about BEE’s writing.

  152. René Georg Vasicek

      I will miss DFW as an American thinker. It’s as if he had all of America inside his head and one day it just exploded.

  153. René Georg Vasicek

      I will miss DFW as an American thinker. It’s as if he had all of America inside his head and one day it just exploded.

  154. Pemulis

      DFW is great, but point me to a character he’s “developed”. Just sour grapes all around.

  155. Pemulis

      Ha. Did I just get insulted by Blake Butler? Blake, I dig your work, I do, I do, but these kind of comments just make you sound adolescent. Plus, if you’ve been reading, lack of character development (or the way ‘cynical’ fiction prevents it) was DFW’s big reason for hating Ellis. Hence, my comment.

      If you think that means books aren’t for me, I suggest you peel off that Xtra small emo tee — it’s depriving your brain of valuable oxygen.

  156. Pemulis

      Ha. Did I just get insulted by Blake Butler? Blake, I dig your work, I do, I do, but these kind of comments just make you sound adolescent. Plus, if you’ve been reading, lack of character development (or the way ‘cynical’ fiction prevents it) was DFW’s big reason for hating Ellis. Hence, my comment.

      If you think that means books aren’t for me, I suggest you peel off that Xtra small emo tee — it’s depriving your brain of valuable oxygen.

  157. Blake Butler

      you’re right actually. i was going to delete my comment immediately after but then got distracted. i haven’t been sleeping very well. my apology for real. i understand yr angle.

  158. Blake Butler

      you’re right actually. i was going to delete my comment immediately after but then got distracted. i haven’t been sleeping very well. my apology for real. i understand yr angle.

  159. ryan

      Thanks for this! Seems to make sense.

  160. ryan

      Thanks for this! Seems to make sense.

  161. ryan

      I don’t know about “developed,” but I think DFW wrote his fair share of fully realized characters. Don G. and Madame P. come to mind, right now. I haven’t read his short stuff in a while.

  162. ryan

      I don’t know about “developed,” but I think DFW wrote his fair share of fully realized characters. Don G. and Madame P. come to mind, right now. I haven’t read his short stuff in a while.

  163. Blake Butler

      character development.

      you might want to steer towards TV more often than books

  164. Kristin

      a recurring theme i am noticing is your problem with t-shirts. i am curious about the upper-body garment you favor. something that does not constrict… do you prefer open vests. perhaps some sort of cloak or robe.

  165. Kristin

      a recurring theme i am noticing is your problem with t-shirts. i am curious about the upper-body garment you favor. something that does not constrict… do you prefer open vests. perhaps some sort of cloak or robe.

  166. Pemulis

      Thanks, Blake.

      Kristin: yes, it’s my lazy shorthand for the kind of short-term narrow-mindedness that afflicts us from time to time; I guess you could love one type of art, one mode of writing so much, the natural inclinination might be to draw a circle around and proclaim all else total bullshit. Which I think is nuts. And which I think ties into what DFW was saying about Ellis. They approach things differently, but I wouldn’t give up either one.

      (I prefer button-downs. Roomy T-shirts, never cloaks).

  167. Pemulis

      Thanks, Blake.

      Kristin: yes, it’s my lazy shorthand for the kind of short-term narrow-mindedness that afflicts us from time to time; I guess you could love one type of art, one mode of writing so much, the natural inclinination might be to draw a circle around and proclaim all else total bullshit. Which I think is nuts. And which I think ties into what DFW was saying about Ellis. They approach things differently, but I wouldn’t give up either one.

      (I prefer button-downs. Roomy T-shirts, never cloaks).

  168. René Georg Vasicek

      I will miss DFW as an American thinker. It’s as if he had all of America inside his head and one day it just exploded.

  169. Steven Augustine

      “t-shirts” is a red-herring. “Emo” is the actual trigger.

  170. Steven Augustine

      “t-shirts” is a red-herring. “Emo” is the actual trigger.

  171. Pemulis

      Ha. Did I just get insulted by Blake Butler? Blake, I dig your work, I do, I do, but these kind of comments just make you sound adolescent. Plus, if you’ve been reading, lack of character development (or the way ‘cynical’ fiction prevents it) was DFW’s big reason for hating Ellis. Hence, my comment.

      If you think that means books aren’t for me, I suggest you peel off that Xtra small emo tee — it’s depriving your brain of valuable oxygen.

  172. Blake Butler

      you’re right actually. i was going to delete my comment immediately after but then got distracted. i haven’t been sleeping very well. my apology for real. i understand yr angle.

  173. ryan

      Thanks for this! Seems to make sense.

  174. ryan

      I don’t know about “developed,” but I think DFW wrote his fair share of fully realized characters. Don G. and Madame P. come to mind, right now. I haven’t read his short stuff in a while.

  175. kristin

      a recurring theme i am noticing is your problem with t-shirts. i am curious about the upper-body garment you favor. something that does not constrict… do you prefer open vests. perhaps some sort of cloak or robe.

  176. frank

      Like for months in the spring semester of Y.D.P.A.H she (Madame Psychosis) referred to her own program as ‘Madam Downer-Lit Hour’ and read depressing book after depressing book– Good Morning, Midnight and Maggie: A Girl of the Streets and Giovanni’s Room and Under the Volcano, plus a truly ghastly Bret Ellis period during Lent– in a monotone, really slowly, night after night.

      — Infinite Jest

  177. frank

      Like for months in the spring semester of Y.D.P.A.H she (Madame Psychosis) referred to her own program as ‘Madam Downer-Lit Hour’ and read depressing book after depressing book– Good Morning, Midnight and Maggie: A Girl of the Streets and Giovanni’s Room and Under the Volcano, plus a truly ghastly Bret Ellis period during Lent– in a monotone, really slowly, night after night.

      — Infinite Jest

  178. Pemulis

      Thanks, Blake.

      Kristin: yes, it’s my lazy shorthand for the kind of short-term narrow-mindedness that afflicts us from time to time; I guess you could love one type of art, one mode of writing so much, the natural inclinination might be to draw a circle around and proclaim all else total bullshit. Which I think is nuts. And which I think ties into what DFW was saying about Ellis. They approach things differently, but I wouldn’t give up either one.

      (I prefer button-downs. Roomy T-shirts, never cloaks).

  179. Steven Augustine

      “t-shirts” is a red-herring. “Emo” is the actual trigger.

  180. zusya17

      @marsh

      i posted a reply but the spam filter ate it. blegh.

  181. marshall

      Damn. Human after yall.

  182. marshall

      Damn. Human after yall.

  183. marshall

      These colors don’t run.

  184. marshall

      These colors don’t run.

  185. frank

      Like for months in the spring semester of Y.D.P.A.H she (Madame Psychosis) referred to her own program as ‘Madam Downer-Lit Hour’ and read depressing book after depressing book– Good Morning, Midnight and Maggie: A Girl of the Streets and Giovanni’s Room and Under the Volcano, plus a truly ghastly Bret Ellis period during Lent– in a monotone, really slowly, night after night.

      — Infinite Jest

  186. zusya17

      ykinda. i can’t remember my exact phrasing, but i alluded to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_%28existentialism%29#Sartre.27s_examples, nestled with the hyperlink text “ah.” … and then i think i wrote something like: “all i tinmancan say is: if ur reading this, ur human(e).”

      maybe. who knows? does it matter? does it know who matters? maybe.

      damn you spam filter. damn you!

  187. zusya17

      10 minute Pink Floyd guitar solo-reads are where it’s really at.

  188. zusya17

      you just wrote an ad for Tide.

  189. Guest

      Damn. Human after yall.

  190. Guest

      These colors don’t run.

  191. Emma C

      BEE was a lot more considered when giving his opinion than the transcription makes out. (I’ve actually recorded it) He emphasises DFW’s story over the terms ‘pedestrian’ ‘unreadable’ and (faux) ‘midwestern-earnestness’ (not ‘sentimentality?’ But other than that the transcript is pretty true to form.

      I addition to this, i’d say that his answers concerning his particular brand of misogyny are far more worthy of discussion than a few (hardly original) criticisms of DFW.

  192. Emma C

      BEE was a lot more considered when giving his opinion than the transcription makes out. (I’ve actually recorded it) He emphasises DFW’s story over the terms ‘pedestrian’ ‘unreadable’ and (faux) ‘midwestern-earnestness’ (not ‘sentimentality?’ But other than that the transcript is pretty true to form.

      I addition to this, i’d say that his answers concerning his particular brand of misogyny are far more worthy of discussion than a few (hardly original) criticisms of DFW.

  193. Emma C

      BEE was a lot more considered when giving his opinion than the transcription makes out. (I’ve actually recorded it) He emphasises DFW’s story over the terms ‘pedestrian’ ‘unreadable’ and (faux) ‘midwestern-earnestness’ (not ‘sentimentality?’ But other than that the transcript is pretty true to form.

      I addition to this, i’d say that his answers concerning his particular brand of misogyny are far more worthy of discussion than a few (hardly original) criticisms of DFW.

  194. Hank

      To this point, I have not read any of David Foster Wallace’s fiction, which is why, yesterday, when “Infinite Jest” came in the mail, I opened it to a random page and saw his usage of the word “like” and thought, like, that’s pretty crazy.

  195. Hank

      To this point, I have not read any of David Foster Wallace’s fiction, which is why, yesterday, when “Infinite Jest” came in the mail, I opened it to a random page and saw his usage of the word “like” and thought, like, that’s pretty crazy.

  196. Hank

      To this point, I have not read any of David Foster Wallace’s fiction, which is why, yesterday, when “Infinite Jest” came in the mail, I opened it to a random page and saw his usage of the word “like” and thought, like, that’s pretty crazy.

  197. marshall

      Yeah. Spam filter is wack.

  198. marshall

      I just wrote an ad for America.

  199. marshall

      Yeah. Spam filter is wack.

  200. marshall

      I just wrote an ad for America.

  201. Guest

      Yeah. Spam filter is wack.

  202. Guest

      I just wrote an ad for America.

  203. Sade

      Bwah hah hah, this quote is full of awesome and win.

  204. Sade

      Bwah hah hah, this quote is full of awesome and win.

  205. Sade

      Bwah hah hah, this quote is full of awesome and win.

  206. matto

      I enjoyed reading Less than Zero and The Informers. I even enjoyed Lunar Park, which I can assure you has been described as “unreadable” its fair share. So I am not an Ellis hater by any stretch…but I don’t like his comments on DFW’s writings.
      To say that Infinite Jest is unreadable makes me think Ellis isn’t much of a reader. Maybe that’s not so groundbreaking a thought when talking about a pop culture novelist whose masterwork is 208 pages with copious margins. I wonder if Ellis got far enough along into Infinite Jest to the point where DFW slams him, bc its in there. Maybe that’s what made Infinite Jest unreadable for Ellis: knowing that his name would be read in a work not his own for such duration that the readers of the future wouldn’t even understand the reference.

  207. Tinman the sin man.

      I found Wallace’s words to be vapid and superficial.  I doubt he has read American Psycho or has never tried to get below the surface of the character.  The novel was directly the opposite of what Wallace was saying.  The depersonalization and superficial attributes of the character Patrick Bateman are a satire on the times, sure that’s fairly true but sentences like “We buy balloons.  We let them go.” shows a whimsy and to me shows that Ellis has hope for the future and isn’t just feeding into the depressed, crazy, sadomasochists in society.  I enjoy both authors but that answer disappointed me, It wasn’t well thought out or researched.  It was childish and i had expected better than that from him.