Sarki on Lish
M Sarki with an interesting defense (I guess) of Gordon Lish at EWN. I found the intrigue here in Sarki, not in Lish (not so riveting to revisit the Carver thing). Not sure I’ve seen such reliance on another in judging an individual work. Sarki sends his poems to Lish via mail then gets a YES, NO, or SO SO written on the poem. Sarki writes:
But after so many years of working with him I pretty much have a feel for what he’ll like and what he won’t. I get mostly a Yes these days.
Sarki sends every poem he writes to Lish. This post by Sarki implies he evaluates his own work exclusively by Lish’s response. Do other writers have one reader who sits in appraisal? Or maybe this is a device for Sarki. A “reader” to write to, an envelope to fold the poems within and send away. Sarki says he treats the relationship like Lish is a literary magazine (The actual magazine no longer exists) and it seems Sarki knows exactly what the literary magazine would publish, the type of stuff it likes, how to get the YES. This post led me to questions. 1.) What if Lish died, or refused Sarki’s work? 2.) What if he just said NO every time? 3.) If he said NO, would Sarki change his own writing style/form/way to try for that slippery YES? Or would he just stop writing poems? On and on. The larger questions aren’t about Sarki and Lish. I am picking at the idea of audience, of editor (even if your own hemisphere of brain) as present when the writer is working, at within and without. Do you gesture to an editorial eye, while writing? Anyway, the relationship obviously works for Sarki.
I wouldn’t trade him or his hard tyrannical ways for anybody, even if it meant I would never be published again.
Sarki says you can publish his poetry manuscripts, maybe.
I still have at least one more, maybe two, manuscripts waiting for a publisher, but I haven’t sent them anywhere, and nobody’s asked. But for the record, if you’re good, I honor all requests.
Seems fair. But you will not edit the MSS if you publish them. He only works with Lish.
BTW, Sarki’s hub posts are often solid. This one. And I think his poems (I have read) are tight little engines (here and here). Were these written, sent to Lish, stamped with a YES, then sent along into the world?
I assume so.
Tags: Emerging Writers Network, gordon lish, M Sarki, the quarterly
in less generous moments i’ve wondered if lish mania for some writers isn’t some form of stockholm syndrome. i have one editorial eye i rely on a lot, though i defy that eye on occasion. it blinks, sighs, turns away.
in less generous moments i’ve wondered if lish mania for some writers isn’t some form of stockholm syndrome. i have one editorial eye i rely on a lot, though i defy that eye on occasion. it blinks, sighs, turns away.
in less generous moments i’ve wondered if lish mania for some writers isn’t some form of stockholm syndrome. i have one editorial eye i rely on a lot, though i defy that eye on occasion. it blinks, sighs, turns away.
To get caught up on the question of “would you do what this guy is doing?” is to miss the point entirely. Here we have an editor/teacher/mentor/person who is so committed to the notion that great work is not merely possible, but is important for its own sake, irrespective of markets, recognition, etc.–that he is willing to dedicate himself fully and in perpetuity to the ongoing perfection of those writers whom he admires and the work that they do. The relationship sketched out–alluded to, really–by Sarki’s few anecdotes seems to me truly special, and all too rare in this world. That, to me, is the point. Thanks for linking.
To get caught up on the question of “would you do what this guy is doing?” is to miss the point entirely. Here we have an editor/teacher/mentor/person who is so committed to the notion that great work is not merely possible, but is important for its own sake, irrespective of markets, recognition, etc.–that he is willing to dedicate himself fully and in perpetuity to the ongoing perfection of those writers whom he admires and the work that they do. The relationship sketched out–alluded to, really–by Sarki’s few anecdotes seems to me truly special, and all too rare in this world. That, to me, is the point. Thanks for linking.
To get caught up on the question of “would you do what this guy is doing?” is to miss the point entirely. Here we have an editor/teacher/mentor/person who is so committed to the notion that great work is not merely possible, but is important for its own sake, irrespective of markets, recognition, etc.–that he is willing to dedicate himself fully and in perpetuity to the ongoing perfection of those writers whom he admires and the work that they do. The relationship sketched out–alluded to, really–by Sarki’s few anecdotes seems to me truly special, and all too rare in this world. That, to me, is the point. Thanks for linking.
v generous view. thanks.
v generous view. thanks.
v generous view. thanks.
No, that wasn’t my point, Justin. I wrote my point: “The larger questions aren’t about Sarki and Lish.”
I also said I admire Sarki’s writing, so the technique works (As I said). As for your point about Lish, I agree. That’s a very generous thing to do. I never said it wasn’t. Lish seems to be generous to writers throughout his life, as documented.
The “irrespective of markets, etc.” thing I think you are being generous yourself with you reading of Lish. He’s done plenty with an eye to recognition, or markets, as in $.
Not a fault, just a fact.
More than anything I think his time in mainstream publishing brought about some of the most exciting literature in the U.S. That’s what I view as his legacy.
No, that wasn’t my point, Justin. I wrote my point: “The larger questions aren’t about Sarki and Lish.”
I also said I admire Sarki’s writing, so the technique works (As I said). As for your point about Lish, I agree. That’s a very generous thing to do. I never said it wasn’t. Lish seems to be generous to writers throughout his life, as documented.
The “irrespective of markets, etc.” thing I think you are being generous yourself with you reading of Lish. He’s done plenty with an eye to recognition, or markets, as in $.
Not a fault, just a fact.
More than anything I think his time in mainstream publishing brought about some of the most exciting literature in the U.S. That’s what I view as his legacy.
No, that wasn’t my point, Justin. I wrote my point: “The larger questions aren’t about Sarki and Lish.”
I also said I admire Sarki’s writing, so the technique works (As I said). As for your point about Lish, I agree. That’s a very generous thing to do. I never said it wasn’t. Lish seems to be generous to writers throughout his life, as documented.
The “irrespective of markets, etc.” thing I think you are being generous yourself with you reading of Lish. He’s done plenty with an eye to recognition, or markets, as in $.
Not a fault, just a fact.
More than anything I think his time in mainstream publishing brought about some of the most exciting literature in the U.S. That’s what I view as his legacy.
Yes. I wanted the MFA to be a way of fostering this sort of close relationship — knowing and caring for other writers. It has been in some ways. Not so much in others (the majority, I think). People are too busy protecting themselves. And now I protect myself too, sometimes.
Yes. I wanted the MFA to be a way of fostering this sort of close relationship — knowing and caring for other writers. It has been in some ways. Not so much in others (the majority, I think). People are too busy protecting themselves. And now I protect myself too, sometimes.
Yes. I wanted the MFA to be a way of fostering this sort of close relationship — knowing and caring for other writers. It has been in some ways. Not so much in others (the majority, I think). People are too busy protecting themselves. And now I protect myself too, sometimes.
i like this alot. that people will seek recognition in realms other than publication is refreshing. i would send things to gordon lish if i had his address. but yeah to focus so heavily on the opinion of one person is kind of yeah. dangerous? i mean the whole point of a teacher or mentor is that the student will eventually come into their own right? i feel maybe im sometimes doing the same thing at diane williams, but for me i think i tend to move from person to person over long periods of time when i feel my writing drifts. i think i always let my own drift decide and then find the person. even already im sending less to dw because my sensibility is drifting again. but where to? thats the fun.
i like this alot. that people will seek recognition in realms other than publication is refreshing. i would send things to gordon lish if i had his address. but yeah to focus so heavily on the opinion of one person is kind of yeah. dangerous? i mean the whole point of a teacher or mentor is that the student will eventually come into their own right? i feel maybe im sometimes doing the same thing at diane williams, but for me i think i tend to move from person to person over long periods of time when i feel my writing drifts. i think i always let my own drift decide and then find the person. even already im sending less to dw because my sensibility is drifting again. but where to? thats the fun.
i like this alot. that people will seek recognition in realms other than publication is refreshing. i would send things to gordon lish if i had his address. but yeah to focus so heavily on the opinion of one person is kind of yeah. dangerous? i mean the whole point of a teacher or mentor is that the student will eventually come into their own right? i feel maybe im sometimes doing the same thing at diane williams, but for me i think i tend to move from person to person over long periods of time when i feel my writing drifts. i think i always let my own drift decide and then find the person. even already im sending less to dw because my sensibility is drifting again. but where to? thats the fun.
I guess that’s all well and good if you are pandering to an audience filled with Gordon Lishes. Which, I suppose isn’t a bad thing when you consider the success, but even that term is relative, because I’m not particularly into anything I’ve read by anyone associated with Lish and his “school.”
“but yeah to focus so heavily on the opinion of one person is kind of yeah. dangerous? i mean the whole point of a teacher or mentor is that the student will eventually come into their own right?”
One would hope. If I lived my life trying to please one person, not only would my sanity come into question, but I’d be damn miserable. I think Sean made a good point when he asked, “what would he do if Lish said no to everything he wrote?” Would he get the hint and realize that there are other fishes in the sea, so to speak? Or would he continue in a pathetic attempt to please?
I read those poems and could only think, “meh.”
I guess that’s all well and good if you are pandering to an audience filled with Gordon Lishes. Which, I suppose isn’t a bad thing when you consider the success, but even that term is relative, because I’m not particularly into anything I’ve read by anyone associated with Lish and his “school.”
“but yeah to focus so heavily on the opinion of one person is kind of yeah. dangerous? i mean the whole point of a teacher or mentor is that the student will eventually come into their own right?”
One would hope. If I lived my life trying to please one person, not only would my sanity come into question, but I’d be damn miserable. I think Sean made a good point when he asked, “what would he do if Lish said no to everything he wrote?” Would he get the hint and realize that there are other fishes in the sea, so to speak? Or would he continue in a pathetic attempt to please?
I read those poems and could only think, “meh.”
I guess that’s all well and good if you are pandering to an audience filled with Gordon Lishes. Which, I suppose isn’t a bad thing when you consider the success, but even that term is relative, because I’m not particularly into anything I’ve read by anyone associated with Lish and his “school.”
“but yeah to focus so heavily on the opinion of one person is kind of yeah. dangerous? i mean the whole point of a teacher or mentor is that the student will eventually come into their own right?”
One would hope. If I lived my life trying to please one person, not only would my sanity come into question, but I’d be damn miserable. I think Sean made a good point when he asked, “what would he do if Lish said no to everything he wrote?” Would he get the hint and realize that there are other fishes in the sea, so to speak? Or would he continue in a pathetic attempt to please?
I read those poems and could only think, “meh.”
I read this the other day and found it really interesting. I find it fascinating that for Sarki there is one person whose aesthetic and opinion he respects so much that they’re the audience for whom he writes and defers to. I think you have to be a certain kind of writer to have that kind of individual commitment. I like working with multiple editors. I find that the diversity of perspective only enriches my writing. As an aside, I only vaguely know who Gordon Lish is because I read the piece in the New Yorker with Raymond Carver’s WWTAWWTAL before and after Lish’s edits. I find the slavish devotion to him fascinating as well.
I read this the other day and found it really interesting. I find it fascinating that for Sarki there is one person whose aesthetic and opinion he respects so much that they’re the audience for whom he writes and defers to. I think you have to be a certain kind of writer to have that kind of individual commitment. I like working with multiple editors. I find that the diversity of perspective only enriches my writing. As an aside, I only vaguely know who Gordon Lish is because I read the piece in the New Yorker with Raymond Carver’s WWTAWWTAL before and after Lish’s edits. I find the slavish devotion to him fascinating as well.
I read this the other day and found it really interesting. I find it fascinating that for Sarki there is one person whose aesthetic and opinion he respects so much that they’re the audience for whom he writes and defers to. I think you have to be a certain kind of writer to have that kind of individual commitment. I like working with multiple editors. I find that the diversity of perspective only enriches my writing. As an aside, I only vaguely know who Gordon Lish is because I read the piece in the New Yorker with Raymond Carver’s WWTAWWTAL before and after Lish’s edits. I find the slavish devotion to him fascinating as well.
I think there are a lot of readers who have a primary reader who they in some sense write to impress (spouse? agent? editor?). The idea of focusing so heavily on one other person seems kind of weird, but really it all comes down to what works. If you need that kind of motivation then good on ya. That’s kind of how I feel about the whole Lish debate in general. His tactics seems iffy, but it is hard to argue with results. And when your students include Diane Williams, Barry Hannah, Gary Lutz, Sam Lipsyte, Ben Marcus, Raymond Carver and so on you are clearly getting results.
I think there are a lot of readers who have a primary reader who they in some sense write to impress (spouse? agent? editor?). The idea of focusing so heavily on one other person seems kind of weird, but really it all comes down to what works. If you need that kind of motivation then good on ya. That’s kind of how I feel about the whole Lish debate in general. His tactics seems iffy, but it is hard to argue with results. And when your students include Diane Williams, Barry Hannah, Gary Lutz, Sam Lipsyte, Ben Marcus, Raymond Carver and so on you are clearly getting results.
I think there are a lot of readers who have a primary reader who they in some sense write to impress (spouse? agent? editor?). The idea of focusing so heavily on one other person seems kind of weird, but really it all comes down to what works. If you need that kind of motivation then good on ya. That’s kind of how I feel about the whole Lish debate in general. His tactics seems iffy, but it is hard to argue with results. And when your students include Diane Williams, Barry Hannah, Gary Lutz, Sam Lipsyte, Ben Marcus, Raymond Carver and so on you are clearly getting results.
a lot of writers who have a primary reader…
a lot of writers who have a primary reader…
a lot of writers who have a primary reader…
Hmm…that was my question: how unusual is this? To have a primary reader. I know in grad school people would team up for years, occasionally. Like that would be their reader. Don’t know if that followed through after.
I wish I had a reader now!
Then again, not.
Hmm…that was my question: how unusual is this? To have a primary reader. I know in grad school people would team up for years, occasionally. Like that would be their reader. Don’t know if that followed through after.
I wish I had a reader now!
Then again, not.
My wife is my primary reader, and I’m hers. My favorite thing is to write stuff she thinks she’ll hate well enough that she loves them.
I think it would be a lot of fun to be “primary reader” for more people.
My wife is my primary reader, and I’m hers. My favorite thing is to write stuff she thinks she’ll hate well enough that she loves them.
I think it would be a lot of fun to be “primary reader” for more people.
tbh, part of me would absolutely kill for a mentor. these years at college and i’ve never really found one. (my adviser’s remarks tend to run the gamut of “that’s okay” to “that’s interesting”– and I feel ridiculous for wanting more than that) i suspect i’m just very very stubborn and sabotage any relationship that might evolve w/ me being the student. still, stu mentions that pleasing somebody else would do a number on sanity, on the flip side, i kind of wonder how you can judge jury and executioner yourself on every piece– assuming you’re writing faster than a snail’s clip– without giving yourself dissociative identity disorder. and if one primary reader is unhealthy, how many primary readers connotes health. sean’s questions would still apply even if you relied on any number of people evaluating your work.
tbh, part of me would absolutely kill for a mentor. these years at college and i’ve never really found one. (my adviser’s remarks tend to run the gamut of “that’s okay” to “that’s interesting”– and I feel ridiculous for wanting more than that) i suspect i’m just very very stubborn and sabotage any relationship that might evolve w/ me being the student. still, stu mentions that pleasing somebody else would do a number on sanity, on the flip side, i kind of wonder how you can judge jury and executioner yourself on every piece– assuming you’re writing faster than a snail’s clip– without giving yourself dissociative identity disorder. and if one primary reader is unhealthy, how many primary readers connotes health. sean’s questions would still apply even if you relied on any number of people evaluating your work.
i imagine for comedy writers, a primary reader– or at least, a primary audience– must feel more or less essential. i know john cleese has talked about what an amazing primary person graham chapman was, that if graham laughed the audience laughed, etc
i imagine for comedy writers, a primary reader– or at least, a primary audience– must feel more or less essential. i know john cleese has talked about what an amazing primary person graham chapman was, that if graham laughed the audience laughed, etc
Gordon Lish is M. Sarki.
Gordon Lish is M. Sarki.
“1.) What if Lish died, or refused Sarki’s work?”
I would continue writing. If there was somebody I found out there to replace Lish, I would at that time, but I don’t know anybody of his caliber out there. If Lish began resorting to regularly refusing all of my work I suppose I would quit sending it to him, maybe stick to making films and photographs based on my older accepted work, or find another art form that makes me happy.
“2.) What if he just said NO every time?”
I would have to be honest with myself and admit that my work is not of good quality any longer. I would probably quit writing poems.
“3.) If he said NO, would Sarki change his own writing style/form/way to try for that slippery YES? Or would he just stop writing poems? On and on.”
See my answer to #2.
And Vin (I once knew a Cock Diesel, any relation?), Gordon Lish could not/would not be M Sarki just as I could not/would not be Gordon Lish. Plus, it is my complete understanding that we like being in our own skins, and next to a naked woman.