Craft Notes
On Teaching On Writing On Luck
I’m lucky.
Three days a week I get to stand in front of a classroom of students and talk about writing. I get to try new things and challenge what students understand about writing, words and knowledge. On the first day of class, we play with Legos and it completely blows my students’ minds that this is a serious college class where we’re going to do serious things in fun ways. I love teaching. It is awesome.
Teaching (writing) is hard and frustrating for so many reasons.
We’re dealing with the vagaries of college students–they’re pressed for time and they’re sleepy and they’re bored and they’re hung over and they’re involved in 511 activities and they have boyfriends and girlfriends and exams and at my institution in particular, which is a technological university, students often do not believe there is any merit to writing instruction. My colleagues and I are fighting the good fight from a very difficult position. Not only do we need to teach a challenging subject, we need to justify ourselves ever single day to people who wear pajamas to class and consider that a reasonable fashion decision.
I enjoy a good challenge.
Writing is subjective and it is difficult to teach subjectivity. It is difficult to explain what “good writing” is but then you’re confronted with what can only be termed as “bad writing” and you have to be able to justify and explain that too.
Students don’t take notes anymore. They stare at you, and play with their phones or laptops or read magazines beneath the table and their hands never meet pen which never meets paper. You stand at the front of the classroom being witty and clever and giving your best material. It’s like a sophisticated stand up routine without the applause. You have to swallow the bitter taste of the beautiful lecture you spent three hours preparing the night before. It tastes like teen spirit.
Grading is exhausting. You want to show your students you care so you want to be conscientious about how you provide feedback. You want to offer constructive criticism, but then you have to do so knowing that 89% of the time they will never read your comments and they will turn in the VERY SAME rough draft that you spent an hour critiquing the previous week. By the end of the semester, you just want to write a grade and move on to the next document and then you get mad at yourself for assigning so much damn writing.
I primarily teach composition and technical communication and this semester, in my technical communication class, I’ve found that my students feel they have to perform the role of technical writer. In their minds, they have constructed technical communication as this unwieldy, complex endeavor so they write these crazy things that have no relationship to anything comprehensible and they point to some technical bit of information and say, “See! This is technical!” Then you speak to them and they are able to form complete sentences that are interesting to listen to. I tell them, look, write your report by discussing your ideas aloud. Record yourself. Transcribe that recording and turn it in. They say, “That’s too easy,” because they think writing is supposed to be hard.
When students come to talk to me outside of class, so often they articulate that they are intimidated. They think they are “bad writers.” I hate that phrase, particularly because often times, students are not bad writers. They are just struggling with expressing themselves clearly or rhetorically. They are trying too hard or they are not trying hard enough but they are not bad. The heart of my dissertation is that we need to stop constructing students as bad writers. It’s neither fair nor productive. This is not to say I do not have those human moments where I read something and think, “Ugh. This student is a bad writer,” but what does that attitude accomplish? What does it teach students? Not much. More often than not, I believe students write to what we expect of them. I tell my students, “You are all good writers, even if you sometimes provide evidence to the contrary.”
The other day, one of my students asked me if there were other courses like mine she could take because she wanted to learn more about writing. I felt like I had run and won a marathon.
Students (and many others) often think technical communication is all about memos and reports and resumés–focusing more on form than function. I love that technical communication is so much more. In class, I talk about how what we’re really doing when we write a recommendation report, for example, is telling a story. We’re telling the most important story that has ever been told. We have to tell the story so well that more than one kind of person will appreciate it and take from it what we need them to take from it. We have to keep it short but meaty. I wanted my students to really feel this idea of a concise yet complex story in their bones so we recently read excerpts from Amelia Gray’s AM/PM and then they wrote tiny stories and then they wrote tiny versions of their technical reports. It was fantastic to be able to bring creative writing into technical communication in a way that made sense instead of sitting around reading other reports. I mean, we do that too, but it is not all we do.
I am rambling here but these experiences remind me that at the end of the day writing (regardless of genre) is primarily about words and putting them together thoughtfully, in ways that make sense, in ways that are interesting. Teaching is hard and frustrating but it is also neat and exciting and on the real, there is nothing more hilarious and awesome than listening to students spin elaborate excuses for absences, missed assignments, shoddy performance, etc. They are the most masterful creative creatures in the world with a real knack for narrative arc because it started with a defective printer at home which exploded and there was ink everywhere so it destroyed all the paper and there was an allergic reaction to the ink and then there was an unfortunate situation at the computer lab where every single machine on campus died at the same time and they didn’t want to be late to class so they decided to sacrifice turning in the assignment so as not to negatively affect their attendance record.
I’m so goddamned lucky.
a friend of mine is teaching a technical writing course next semester, he is beginning with Heidegger’s The Question Concerning Technology and them moving to other things (Byron Hawk, perhaps). There are ways to make technical writing interesting it seems other than teaching the big technical writing textbooks (Mike Markel’s text comes to mind). I don’t know, I will have to give it a good thinking over before I teach technical writing (or business writing) next fall. Technical Communication Quarterly has some great articles, so there must be something there to love beyond have students do brochure projects.
a friend of mine is teaching a technical writing course next semester, he is beginning with Heidegger’s The Question Concerning Technology and them moving to other things (Byron Hawk, perhaps). There are ways to make technical writing interesting it seems other than teaching the big technical writing textbooks (Mike Markel’s text comes to mind). I don’t know, I will have to give it a good thinking over before I teach technical writing (or business writing) next fall. Technical Communication Quarterly has some great articles, so there must be something there to love beyond have students do brochure projects.
I wish more schools would include Schopenhauer in the curriculum and ease back on the Heidegger and Neitzsche for a while. This country is way too Neitzschean as if it. It needs to be a little more Schopenhauerian, especially the chill’uns.
I wish more schools would include Schopenhauer in the curriculum and ease back on the Heidegger and Neitzsche for a while. This country is way too Neitzschean as if it. It needs to be a little more Schopenhauerian, especially the chill’uns.
This was wonderful, Roxane. It’s a real breath of fresh air just to know that certain aspects of my own experience are more common than I thought (like the not taking notes thing- what the f is that about, anyway?) and it sounds like you’re doing some great work with your students.
I also respond to that idea that students, in a weird way, *want* writing to be hard. I think part of the reason they want it to be hard is so they can feel better about not struggling with it. If it seems insurmountable from the get-go, it can be written off without much consideration. But if it’s accessible, and within reach (even if somewhat difficult) then it puts the onus on them to rise to the occasion. So it becomes your job first to prove that this is in fact worth doing, and *then* to show them how.
Anyway, cheers!
This was wonderful, Roxane. It’s a real breath of fresh air just to know that certain aspects of my own experience are more common than I thought (like the not taking notes thing- what the f is that about, anyway?) and it sounds like you’re doing some great work with your students.
I also respond to that idea that students, in a weird way, *want* writing to be hard. I think part of the reason they want it to be hard is so they can feel better about not struggling with it. If it seems insurmountable from the get-go, it can be written off without much consideration. But if it’s accessible, and within reach (even if somewhat difficult) then it puts the onus on them to rise to the occasion. So it becomes your job first to prove that this is in fact worth doing, and *then* to show them how.
Anyway, cheers!
I had a student this semester tell me he couldn’t turn in a paper because he’d spent the weekend in jail for accidentally kidnapping a young girl with a homeless person that he was trying to buy a hamburger.
Hell yeah.
I had a student this semester tell me he couldn’t turn in a paper because he’d spent the weekend in jail for accidentally kidnapping a young girl with a homeless person that he was trying to buy a hamburger.
Hell yeah.
I liked this a lot though i am not sure what technical writing is. I will have to google it.
I liked this a lot though i am not sure what technical writing is. I will have to google it.
Really great post. It feels so true that students conflate being bad at something with struggling with it. This has given me some inspiration for my closing remarks during my last comp class tomorrow. Thanks.
Really great post. It feels so true that students conflate being bad at something with struggling with it. This has given me some inspiration for my closing remarks during my last comp class tomorrow. Thanks.
“at the end of the day writing (regardless of genre) is primarily about words and putting them together thoughtfully, in ways that make sense, in ways that are interesting.”
well said, ms. gay
“at the end of the day writing (regardless of genre) is primarily about words and putting them together thoughtfully, in ways that make sense, in ways that are interesting.”
well said, ms. gay
there are “bad” writers. that doesn’t mean they’re bad people. it just means they can’t put words together in a way that is clear or meaningful or compelling. but i don’t really mean “just” because, to me, writing is a most important human activity. it creates something where nothing existed before. it enlarges the mind and the spirit. it builds connections, patterns, where previously there was void. that’s why teaching writing is an important. most of my students will not become professional journalists, though they are majoring in journalism. they will eventually be public school teachers and lawyers and nurses and sales people (and, oh yeah, parents). but if i can teach them to care about writing — which, folks, is the first step in making them better writers — then they’ll be teachers and lawyers and nurses and sales people (and parents) who can say what they mean when they commit thought to paper or PC. i believe the world is a more inhabitable place when words aren’t used in a degraded way that contributes further to the chaos most of us feel encroaching upon us.it’s a moral stuggle. we teach ethics when we teach writing.
there are “bad” writers. that doesn’t mean they’re bad people. it just means they can’t put words together in a way that is clear or meaningful or compelling. but i don’t really mean “just” because, to me, writing is a most important human activity. it creates something where nothing existed before. it enlarges the mind and the spirit. it builds connections, patterns, where previously there was void. that’s why teaching writing is an important. most of my students will not become professional journalists, though they are majoring in journalism. they will eventually be public school teachers and lawyers and nurses and sales people (and, oh yeah, parents). but if i can teach them to care about writing — which, folks, is the first step in making them better writers — then they’ll be teachers and lawyers and nurses and sales people (and parents) who can say what they mean when they commit thought to paper or PC. i believe the world is a more inhabitable place when words aren’t used in a degraded way that contributes further to the chaos most of us feel encroaching upon us.it’s a moral stuggle. we teach ethics when we teach writing.
i have a lot more to say. . . i’ve been teaching writing for almost 30 years . . . i published my first book (off my dissertation on the image of journalists in american fiction, 1890-930) 25 years ago. . . so i’ve given a lot of thought to this and have had a lot of experience with it. . .one thing i’d like to observe is that students generally reach us ill-prepared. . . if they just DO the assignment in secondary school, they get A’s. . . very few have ever had their writing seriously critiqued and edited. . . and as we all know, you can’t improve as a writer if you aren’t getting constant and informed (another issue — most secondary teachers aren’t writers themselves) your writing isn’t going to improve. . . also, our students don’t read. . . i was about to add “enough”. . . but anyone who aspires to write well never reads enough. . . you have to make a ritual of reading just as you have to make a ritual or routine of writing if you hope to ever internalize what makes good writing good
i have a lot more to say. . . i’ve been teaching writing for almost 30 years . . . i published my first book (off my dissertation on the image of journalists in american fiction, 1890-930) 25 years ago. . . so i’ve given a lot of thought to this and have had a lot of experience with it. . .one thing i’d like to observe is that students generally reach us ill-prepared. . . if they just DO the assignment in secondary school, they get A’s. . . very few have ever had their writing seriously critiqued and edited. . . and as we all know, you can’t improve as a writer if you aren’t getting constant and informed (another issue — most secondary teachers aren’t writers themselves) your writing isn’t going to improve. . . also, our students don’t read. . . i was about to add “enough”. . . but anyone who aspires to write well never reads enough. . . you have to make a ritual of reading just as you have to make a ritual or routine of writing if you hope to ever internalize what makes good writing good
Roxanne,
What is the Lego activity you do with students? What activities in class have you found to be the most fun and/or successful?
Roxanne,
What is the Lego activity you do with students? What activities in class have you found to be the most fun and/or successful?
Roxane: Thanks. This is awesome.
Roxane: Thanks. This is awesome.
Heidegger is a great place to start in talking about tech comm. Markel’s text is interesting. It is one of the central texts in the field but I feel there’s a certain complacency in the book. I don’t use it but I understand why so many instructors do. TCQ is in deed a great resource and there’s a lot to do beyond brochure projects. Sometimes, instructors are constrained by curriculum but if you’re allowed to be creative there are many different ways to incorporate different kinds of assignments. I have a colleague who focuses on cookbooks, for example.
Heidegger is a great place to start in talking about tech comm. Markel’s text is interesting. It is one of the central texts in the field but I feel there’s a certain complacency in the book. I don’t use it but I understand why so many instructors do. TCQ is in deed a great resource and there’s a lot to do beyond brochure projects. Sometimes, instructors are constrained by curriculum but if you’re allowed to be creative there are many different ways to incorporate different kinds of assignments. I have a colleague who focuses on cookbooks, for example.
Thank you, Justin. It is always comforting (?) to know that it’s not just me when students do what students are going to do.
Thank you, Justin. It is always comforting (?) to know that it’s not just me when students do what students are going to do.
I have the students sit with a partner back to back. They each have a bag of Legos. Only one member of the team can speak. They have to direct their partner in building something. The partner can only listen, cannot turn around, and they quickly find that the task is not as easy as it seems. The class activities that I’ve found most useful are those where students can put lecture material into immediate practice without feeling like they’re doing busy work. I’m still experimenting each semester. Some things work and some don’t.
I have the students sit with a partner back to back. They each have a bag of Legos. Only one member of the team can speak. They have to direct their partner in building something. The partner can only listen, cannot turn around, and they quickly find that the task is not as easy as it seems. The class activities that I’ve found most useful are those where students can put lecture material into immediate practice without feeling like they’re doing busy work. I’m still experimenting each semester. Some things work and some don’t.
this is all deeply fascinating to me
what might be interesting is if you share somethign that didnt work? ill try to think of some of my own classes as well.
this is all deeply fascinating to me
what might be interesting is if you share somethign that didnt work? ill try to think of some of my own classes as well.
not to say that the lego thing isnt interesting; im glad you described the task fo rus
not to say that the lego thing isnt interesting; im glad you described the task fo rus
Definitely. I can start with my biggest flame out. Four years ago, a TV show called Eureka had an advertising campaign called Made in Eureka which featured these imaginary high tech products. I can’t find any examples but they are discussed here: http://hubpages.com/hub/Made_in_Eureka_Products. As an activity, I had students develop instructional guides to these imaginary products as part of our section on writing instructions. It was a disaster because the whole premise was based on these imaginary projects. Students had a hard time taking it seriously. They had a hard time coming up with credible instructive information. It was a huge huge mess.
I also find it sometimes difficult, depending on the class and the students in the class, to do group projects and peer review. If the dynamic is off, group work can go very very badly and you end up with students really resenting the idea of writing as a collaborative process which, in the workplace, it often is.
Definitely. I can start with my biggest flame out. Four years ago, a TV show called Eureka had an advertising campaign called Made in Eureka which featured these imaginary high tech products. I can’t find any examples but they are discussed here: http://hubpages.com/hub/Made_in_Eureka_Products. As an activity, I had students develop instructional guides to these imaginary products as part of our section on writing instructions. It was a disaster because the whole premise was based on these imaginary projects. Students had a hard time taking it seriously. They had a hard time coming up with credible instructive information. It was a huge huge mess.
I also find it sometimes difficult, depending on the class and the students in the class, to do group projects and peer review. If the dynamic is off, group work can go very very badly and you end up with students really resenting the idea of writing as a collaborative process which, in the workplace, it often is.
one of my flameouts occurred not necessarily during a class, but due to my taking for granted that students would know how to do an assignment. i asked them to ‘evaluate/respond to’ four sample essays that previous students had written for me the semester before. the idea was to show them various examples of how others had accomplished the assignment and to get them thinking critically about writing. unfortunately, my only instructions were ‘evaluate/respond to this as you would if you were the instructor.’ the majority of them simply put a grade on it and marked a few ‘awkward’ sentneces, because, i suspect, that is how many of them perceive the act of teaching writing. some of them said the task was difficult because they didnt know ‘how’ to evaluate the papers, and when i tried to explain to them that that was part of the task, to come up with criteria, i realized my mistake: i hadnt modeled for them that process.
one of my flameouts occurred not necessarily during a class, but due to my taking for granted that students would know how to do an assignment. i asked them to ‘evaluate/respond to’ four sample essays that previous students had written for me the semester before. the idea was to show them various examples of how others had accomplished the assignment and to get them thinking critically about writing. unfortunately, my only instructions were ‘evaluate/respond to this as you would if you were the instructor.’ the majority of them simply put a grade on it and marked a few ‘awkward’ sentneces, because, i suspect, that is how many of them perceive the act of teaching writing. some of them said the task was difficult because they didnt know ‘how’ to evaluate the papers, and when i tried to explain to them that that was part of the task, to come up with criteria, i realized my mistake: i hadnt modeled for them that process.
Roxane. Yes, thank you so much for this post. It actually moved me a lot. It’s good to know there’s this identification with students, thinking about them as more than just the subjects of teacherliness. You know, the lack of note-taking, the pre-concession to defeat, among students feels to me like it has a lot to do with a kind of leeching of creativity out of their lives or something in high school. The idea of active internalisation of ideas that notes imply is just not taught at school anymore – where it is commanded that one copy from the board, the sheet etc. – and so it dissolves into nothing when college turns that into a matter of self-motivated choice. But I love that you’re finding ways around the blockages that stunt their sense of being unequipped, lacking possibility. Teachers find themselves in a thankless, impossible position (the lack of proper resources or proper resource distribution; the grading; the administrative load; the gaps between students and teachers amplified in the very narrow contact time between them and its regimentation) but what makes it even more difficult is that students are still less empowered than teachers are again (or falsely empowered by administrative methods like the teacher assessment sheet, which is a perfect instant of a ressentiment mechanism, designed to even the odds for problems which far exceed any box-ticking or comments) and we really get into the dregs of autonomy considering teachers like yourself and Justin are hardly pampered: teaching exhausts. I think I love that you show it exhausts but it stimulates in an extreme way too. Feels like an oasis of real difference-making. I especially appreciated your thought on discouraging the notion of bad writers, thinking of it in terms of trying too hard or not enough. Man, I wish I’d had you as a writing teacher. Thanks again.
Roxane. Yes, thank you so much for this post. It actually moved me a lot. It’s good to know there’s this identification with students, thinking about them as more than just the subjects of teacherliness. You know, the lack of note-taking, the pre-concession to defeat, among students feels to me like it has a lot to do with a kind of leeching of creativity out of their lives or something in high school. The idea of active internalisation of ideas that notes imply is just not taught at school anymore – where it is commanded that one copy from the board, the sheet etc. – and so it dissolves into nothing when college turns that into a matter of self-motivated choice. But I love that you’re finding ways around the blockages that stunt their sense of being unequipped, lacking possibility. Teachers find themselves in a thankless, impossible position (the lack of proper resources or proper resource distribution; the grading; the administrative load; the gaps between students and teachers amplified in the very narrow contact time between them and its regimentation) but what makes it even more difficult is that students are still less empowered than teachers are again (or falsely empowered by administrative methods like the teacher assessment sheet, which is a perfect instant of a ressentiment mechanism, designed to even the odds for problems which far exceed any box-ticking or comments) and we really get into the dregs of autonomy considering teachers like yourself and Justin are hardly pampered: teaching exhausts. I think I love that you show it exhausts but it stimulates in an extreme way too. Feels like an oasis of real difference-making. I especially appreciated your thought on discouraging the notion of bad writers, thinking of it in terms of trying too hard or not enough. Man, I wish I’d had you as a writing teacher. Thanks again.
so much great stuff here guys, thanks
so much great stuff here guys, thanks
Ryan, one of the lessons I’ve had to work the hardest to learn (and am still very much learning) is providing students with instructions that are clear and not making assumptions about how they will interpret an assignment. So often, in *my* experience, when students do hideously on an assignment, it’s because I haven’t made my expectations clear and I haven’t given them adequate instruction on what, specifically, I want from them. I think it is very important to encourage critical thinking and have students figure out things for themselves but particularly with underclassmen, you have to be explicit.
Ryan, one of the lessons I’ve had to work the hardest to learn (and am still very much learning) is providing students with instructions that are clear and not making assumptions about how they will interpret an assignment. So often, in *my* experience, when students do hideously on an assignment, it’s because I haven’t made my expectations clear and I haven’t given them adequate instruction on what, specifically, I want from them. I think it is very important to encourage critical thinking and have students figure out things for themselves but particularly with underclassmen, you have to be explicit.
This is easily one of my favorite posts at HG. There is good writing in blog posts, email missives, tweets, even—dare I say it?—in obnoxious troll comments found everywhere on the internet.
Writing teachers, in my experience, are often the most willing to experiment in the classroom and the most successful when doing so. I think if students knew more about their teachers, how hard they work, how important the experience is for them…perhaps they might battle through that ink allergy a little more often.
This is easily one of my favorite posts at HG. There is good writing in blog posts, email missives, tweets, even—dare I say it?—in obnoxious troll comments found everywhere on the internet.
Writing teachers, in my experience, are often the most willing to experiment in the classroom and the most successful when doing so. I think if students knew more about their teachers, how hard they work, how important the experience is for them…perhaps they might battle through that ink allergy a little more often.
This is true in my experience, as well. I used to have HW questions like, “Why does Didion use the word Panglossian in this context?” But they would just guess what the word meant and ignore the context. So then I started prefacing with, “What does this word mean?” But they still guessed. So now I say, “Look up Panglossian. What does it mean? Why does Didion use it in this context?” It can be frustrating, but I also think it’s a useful process to learn to be as explicit as possible. Still working on it.
Thanks for this post, Roxane.
This is true in my experience, as well. I used to have HW questions like, “Why does Didion use the word Panglossian in this context?” But they would just guess what the word meant and ignore the context. So then I started prefacing with, “What does this word mean?” But they still guessed. So now I say, “Look up Panglossian. What does it mean? Why does Didion use it in this context?” It can be frustrating, but I also think it’s a useful process to learn to be as explicit as possible. Still working on it.
Thanks for this post, Roxane.
some of the things i’ve learned about teaching writing:
1) lots of short assignments, with constant, almost immediate feedback in-between; using the review function on Word documents really facilitates this
2) teaching rewriting as integral to writing process — students are so used to taking tests that they think they only have one shot at getting it “right” — i build rewriting into most assignments. they don’t initially realize how elastic writing is, how you can switch paragraphs around, substitute words, etc.
3) i emphasize their need to take ownership of their writing. . . it isn’t just a task for them to get through. . . it’s an expression of how they are. . . this is a big one: until they treat what they write as part of who they are, they won’t give it the kind of attention it requires to write well
some of the things i’ve learned about teaching writing:
1) lots of short assignments, with constant, almost immediate feedback in-between; using the review function on Word documents really facilitates this
2) teaching rewriting as integral to writing process — students are so used to taking tests that they think they only have one shot at getting it “right” — i build rewriting into most assignments. they don’t initially realize how elastic writing is, how you can switch paragraphs around, substitute words, etc.
3) i emphasize their need to take ownership of their writing. . . it isn’t just a task for them to get through. . . it’s an expression of how they are. . . this is a big one: until they treat what they write as part of who they are, they won’t give it the kind of attention it requires to write well
I’m a technical writer by day, and enjoyed this post because I haven’t heard anyone discuss teaching tech communication. I volunteer at the 826LA location to tutor kids in writing, and I’m planning on teaching a workshop on tech writing. I was hoping to do something fun, like your Lego activity, or write manuals for futuristic objects. Hearing your experience is interesting – I wonder if younger kids would take a made-up object more seriously (or rather, just go with the imagination of it) instead of college kids.
I’m a technical writer by day, and enjoyed this post because I haven’t heard anyone discuss teaching tech communication. I volunteer at the 826LA location to tutor kids in writing, and I’m planning on teaching a workshop on tech writing. I was hoping to do something fun, like your Lego activity, or write manuals for futuristic objects. Hearing your experience is interesting – I wonder if younger kids would take a made-up object more seriously (or rather, just go with the imagination of it) instead of college kids.
As a student, I can tell you that your instructions probably aren’t too vague; more likely we understand what you are asking but we are too lazy to do it; or, we are too lazy to really think about what the real significance of the question might be (I am thinking of the Didion example above).
As a student, I can tell you that your instructions probably aren’t too vague; more likely we understand what you are asking but we are too lazy to do it; or, we are too lazy to really think about what the real significance of the question might be (I am thinking of the Didion example above).
You’d think so, but as soon as I specify “look it up,” they do so and provide thoughtful answers. I really think some of them haven’t been taught to look up words they don’t know. One student actually emailed me to ask what a word meant instead of using a dictionary.
You’d think so, but as soon as I specify “look it up,” they do so and provide thoughtful answers. I really think some of them haven’t been taught to look up words they don’t know. One student actually emailed me to ask what a word meant instead of using a dictionary.
yikes!
yikes!
yes, yes. its definitnyl about somehow trying to always learn how to communicate expectations. im always trying to refine assignments and prompts. i often ask my students whati could have done to clarify the assignment, etc. usually they are more than willing to say what they needed, and i cant think of, well right now anyhow, one isntance of a student finding that ‘unprofessional.’ i can see something like that being very frustrating to a student, so i explain to them why im asking and how i design assignments.
yes, yes. its definitnyl about somehow trying to always learn how to communicate expectations. im always trying to refine assignments and prompts. i often ask my students whati could have done to clarify the assignment, etc. usually they are more than willing to say what they needed, and i cant think of, well right now anyhow, one isntance of a student finding that ‘unprofessional.’ i can see something like that being very frustrating to a student, so i explain to them why im asking and how i design assignments.
I just came out of undergrad in ’08, and I never really took notes either, except in things like science or history classes where particular facts were necessary. I didn’t even mark up the texts we read, in general — the most I like to put in a book is a little star or a line to denote something I thought was important while I was reading. I still do things this way as a teacher; it still works. My thinking has always been that really internalizing something requires thinking through it, and its implications, and different permutations, as I hear or read it — and that committing to a particular idea about a text by writing it down on the text is sort of obscene. Of course now I wish my students would take notes when I lecture and in their books.
This semester I taught a class I designed myself for the first time and it was wonderful and heartbreaking. Their glacial indifference can destroy things you love — a Dirk Gently book, for instance, got thoroughly smashed. I think high school generally cripples these kids, where I teach. They are immature and lazy in ways that shock me. Not because they are bad kids, but because nobody asked anything better of them before me.
I just came out of undergrad in ’08, and I never really took notes either, except in things like science or history classes where particular facts were necessary. I didn’t even mark up the texts we read, in general — the most I like to put in a book is a little star or a line to denote something I thought was important while I was reading. I still do things this way as a teacher; it still works. My thinking has always been that really internalizing something requires thinking through it, and its implications, and different permutations, as I hear or read it — and that committing to a particular idea about a text by writing it down on the text is sort of obscene. Of course now I wish my students would take notes when I lecture and in their books.
This semester I taught a class I designed myself for the first time and it was wonderful and heartbreaking. Their glacial indifference can destroy things you love — a Dirk Gently book, for instance, got thoroughly smashed. I think high school generally cripples these kids, where I teach. They are immature and lazy in ways that shock me. Not because they are bad kids, but because nobody asked anything better of them before me.
ive been thinking a lot about this notetaking thing. hardly any of my students take notes, but it doesnt bother me. i was a little different than you, mike, in that i took crazy notes in undergrad, and even some in grad school; however, i have a hard time remembering more than a few instances that i ever returned to those notes later. maybe for me the act of writing it down helped in some way. yes, i think that was it. many of my classes are seminars, so the notetaking act is often interrupted by discussion (on the better days); this doens’t mean that notetaking is impossible, but that maybe students get locked into this mode of expectation: if the teacher stands up front and speaks (or writes down things ont he board), then im supposed to write that down on my paper; but if the teacher is actively calling on me and my fellow students, or simply just asking us questions, i have to be better prepared to respond? therefore, the notetaking can take away from that response? i dont know, just thinking aloud here. maybe ill ask my classes next semester (im all done with this one). i also think david’s point is a good one, that the notetaking is sort of robotic and has lost any rhetorical meaning.
ive been thinking a lot about this notetaking thing. hardly any of my students take notes, but it doesnt bother me. i was a little different than you, mike, in that i took crazy notes in undergrad, and even some in grad school; however, i have a hard time remembering more than a few instances that i ever returned to those notes later. maybe for me the act of writing it down helped in some way. yes, i think that was it. many of my classes are seminars, so the notetaking act is often interrupted by discussion (on the better days); this doens’t mean that notetaking is impossible, but that maybe students get locked into this mode of expectation: if the teacher stands up front and speaks (or writes down things ont he board), then im supposed to write that down on my paper; but if the teacher is actively calling on me and my fellow students, or simply just asking us questions, i have to be better prepared to respond? therefore, the notetaking can take away from that response? i dont know, just thinking aloud here. maybe ill ask my classes next semester (im all done with this one). i also think david’s point is a good one, that the notetaking is sort of robotic and has lost any rhetorical meaning.
i just thought of another one. it wasnt necessarily a flameout, but it certainly was a messy class that created far more work than i really needed to deal with. i really wanted my intro to lit (fiction) students to have a great say in the stuff we read, so i devised a system by which they formed editorial groups and i ‘submitted’ all sorts of stories to them by reading aloud the first few sentences in class, then voting on what two stories to read and respond to for hw that night. the problem arose not in the voting and so on, which my students loved, but in the amount of work i had to do to prepare the packets of submissions, based on what learning outcomes i wanted to achieve for that week. it was a lot of work to find those stories,e ven though i often had ideas of what i wanted to show them, for a high attrition rate (ie out of a packet of maybe 10 stories, they would vote on the top 2). this was a lot of work for me each week, and it was work that probably wasnt as important as focusing on responding to their writing, etc. so the lesson there, and something im always really aware of now, is i try to find places i can escape busy work. if i can simplify, etc, then i have more time for myself and for addressing the more important concerns of my students.
i just thought of another one. it wasnt necessarily a flameout, but it certainly was a messy class that created far more work than i really needed to deal with. i really wanted my intro to lit (fiction) students to have a great say in the stuff we read, so i devised a system by which they formed editorial groups and i ‘submitted’ all sorts of stories to them by reading aloud the first few sentences in class, then voting on what two stories to read and respond to for hw that night. the problem arose not in the voting and so on, which my students loved, but in the amount of work i had to do to prepare the packets of submissions, based on what learning outcomes i wanted to achieve for that week. it was a lot of work to find those stories,e ven though i often had ideas of what i wanted to show them, for a high attrition rate (ie out of a packet of maybe 10 stories, they would vote on the top 2). this was a lot of work for me each week, and it was work that probably wasnt as important as focusing on responding to their writing, etc. so the lesson there, and something im always really aware of now, is i try to find places i can escape busy work. if i can simplify, etc, then i have more time for myself and for addressing the more important concerns of my students.
I’m an ardent taker of notes, and I think for me the act of it is the whole benefit. If I had to study for an exam, I would simply copy my notes (actually, this happened recently when studying for the lit gre). But in seminars, I remembered the material because I participated in the discussion. Note-taking, for me, is a way to “participate” in a lecture, since I have to think that much more about how to represent and summarize the ideas in my notes. It’s that extra layer of rapid in-the-moment cognition, whether in taking notes or in thinking about something to be able a comment about it, that allows me to learn. So when my students neither take notes or participate, I do worry, though I’m sure other people learn differently.
I’m an ardent taker of notes, and I think for me the act of it is the whole benefit. If I had to study for an exam, I would simply copy my notes (actually, this happened recently when studying for the lit gre). But in seminars, I remembered the material because I participated in the discussion. Note-taking, for me, is a way to “participate” in a lecture, since I have to think that much more about how to represent and summarize the ideas in my notes. It’s that extra layer of rapid in-the-moment cognition, whether in taking notes or in thinking about something to be able a comment about it, that allows me to learn. So when my students neither take notes or participate, I do worry, though I’m sure other people learn differently.
same goes for underlining in books. i don’t necessarily return to the underlined passages, but i think it helps me absorb the language better if i read more responsively
same goes for underlining in books. i don’t necessarily return to the underlined passages, but i think it helps me absorb the language better if i read more responsively
i think my problem with underlining/highlighting is that on the scale, it’s maybe not as interactive as notes in the margin; however, that doesnt mean i dont think its useufl, especially if the student understands why he or she underlined. i encourage my stduents to write notes over highlighting/underlining, but i only do so if i can explain why i think what i think about it. usually, i say its all about the kinds of decisions you make this semester, and if you decide thats a helpful way of interacting with the information, then do what works for you, all the while keeping in mind the requirements of the university. or something.
i think my problem with underlining/highlighting is that on the scale, it’s maybe not as interactive as notes in the margin; however, that doesnt mean i dont think its useufl, especially if the student understands why he or she underlined. i encourage my stduents to write notes over highlighting/underlining, but i only do so if i can explain why i think what i think about it. usually, i say its all about the kinds of decisions you make this semester, and if you decide thats a helpful way of interacting with the information, then do what works for you, all the while keeping in mind the requirements of the university. or something.
That makes sense. I was thinking of how I do it personally, when I’m reading anything. I don’t make notes in books because whenever I do look back on them years later I feel woefully embarrassed by them, the way I do reading my adolescent diaries.
That makes sense. I was thinking of how I do it personally, when I’m reading anything. I don’t make notes in books because whenever I do look back on them years later I feel woefully embarrassed by them, the way I do reading my adolescent diaries.
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yeah, i hate reading through old books ive destroyed with reckless underlining/notes that are stupid.
yeah, i hate reading through old books ive destroyed with reckless underlining/notes that are stupid.
there’s some good thinking on this in one of the essays in Ander Monson’s new book
there’s some good thinking on this in one of the essays in Ander Monson’s new book
good points on non-note-taking as perhaps a distraction or blockage for some students. i found this in my tutorials actually, only would take down points i felt really needed reminding for later thought, but in lectures i needed to take notes as a form of participation, like amy really excellently puts it. i’m with ryan on underlining: i stopped doing that, too much interference when i returned later. also i have a tendency to highlight everything, ha. blake, when is the monson coming out? is a date set?
good points on non-note-taking as perhaps a distraction or blockage for some students. i found this in my tutorials actually, only would take down points i felt really needed reminding for later thought, but in lectures i needed to take notes as a form of participation, like amy really excellently puts it. i’m with ryan on underlining: i stopped doing that, too much interference when i returned later. also i have a tendency to highlight everything, ha. blake, when is the monson coming out? is a date set?
All of this rings true for me. The truth is, as I’ve told my students explicitly, I don’t particularly think that students pay attention to any teacher, or that they especially need to. A couple of my favorite profs in undergrad I took not so much because I wanted to hear what they had to say but because I wanted to be in a room with them — because I liked the kind of room they made. I had a lot of anxiety that became physical pain and I would sit in class listening to a calming professor and trying to rub the pain from my too-tight ham strings and so on. Later I remembered some of the things they said and not others, and this was fine — I learned how to feel and think by exposure to them. In this sense I may be a good teacher or a bad one. I definitely provide an atmosphere. It is probably not calming. I am still not calm.
I do wish they would pay more attention to each other.
All of this rings true for me. The truth is, as I’ve told my students explicitly, I don’t particularly think that students pay attention to any teacher, or that they especially need to. A couple of my favorite profs in undergrad I took not so much because I wanted to hear what they had to say but because I wanted to be in a room with them — because I liked the kind of room they made. I had a lot of anxiety that became physical pain and I would sit in class listening to a calming professor and trying to rub the pain from my too-tight ham strings and so on. Later I remembered some of the things they said and not others, and this was fine — I learned how to feel and think by exposure to them. In this sense I may be a good teacher or a bad one. I definitely provide an atmosphere. It is probably not calming. I am still not calm.
I do wish they would pay more attention to each other.
What bothers me about the students not taking notes is that they’re not retaining the course material. I can give a lecture in class, and then we’ll go to the computer lab and the students will ask me questions about what I JUST TALKED ABOUT. And when I say questions, I mean very basic questions like, for example, “What is a memo?” after I’ve just talked about memos.
What bothers me about the students not taking notes is that they’re not retaining the course material. I can give a lecture in class, and then we’ll go to the computer lab and the students will ask me questions about what I JUST TALKED ABOUT. And when I say questions, I mean very basic questions like, for example, “What is a memo?” after I’ve just talked about memos.
I love it. That’s just so… bold. But I agree. Many students genuinely do not know that they can look things up for themselves.
I love it. That’s just so… bold. But I agree. Many students genuinely do not know that they can look things up for themselves.
hell yeah, indeed. did you ask him for a note?
hell yeah, indeed. did you ask him for a note?
Roxane — I bet you tried telling them to take notes at the beginning of infodump lectures, the way I do sometimes.
They do take the notes. But, well, yeah. Sux.
Roxane — I bet you tried telling them to take notes at the beginning of infodump lectures, the way I do sometimes.
They do take the notes. But, well, yeah. Sux.