January 2nd, 2009 / 2:28 pm
Excerpts

An Excerpt from Conversations with Angels: What Swedenborg Heard In Heaven

The Devil

The Devil

  There still exist people who follow the work of Emanuel Swedenborg in this world. He was a Christian mystic (who influenced the likes of William Blake, a favorite of mine, as well as Borges and Jung and Helen Keller) whose work sometimes intimidates me, because he saw so much that I sometimes feel he really hallucinated all the time after a certain point in his life. And that scares me and breaks my heart. Then again, he was a man who had found salvation and inspired a new Christian religion. Maybe he was truly blessed. I guess we’ll never know for sure. That said, he knew for sure. His books are published by the Swedenborg Foundation. Here’s a funny bit about running into some devils:

 

 

 But just then the ground opened up at a distance from them, and three devils came up through the opening! They looked as if they were on fire with the happiness of their loves. Those who were with the new spirit could tell that the three devils had come from hell providentally, so they said to them, “Don’t come any closer, but from where you are, tell something about your happiness.”

They said, “Everyone, you understand, whether good or bad, has his happiness–a good person the happiness of his goodness, and a bad person the happiness of his badness.”

“What’s your happiness?” the Facts asked.

They said it was the pleasure of whoring, stealing, cheating, and blaspheming.

Then the Facts asked, “What are those pleasures like?”

The devils said, “To other people they smell like the bad smells from excrement and like the stench of corpses and like fumes from stagnant urine.”

They asked, “Are thes smells pleasant to you?”

The devils said, “Very pleasant!”

The Facts said, “Then you are like the filthy creatures that spend their time in things like that.”

“If we are, we are,” they answered, “but things like that are a joy to our nostrils.”

This little section made me think of partying on New Year’s Eve. We are all naughty devils.

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32 Comments

  1. jereme

      ‘if we are, we are…’

      i liked that.

  2. jereme

      ‘if we are, we are…’

      i liked that.

  3. pr

      He had some very interesting visions or experiences or whatever you want to call them.

      Happy New Year Jereme!

  4. jereme

      i will try PR.

      You do the same.

  5. jereme

      i will try PR.

      You do the same.

  6. Justin Taylor

      pr- I read about half of Swedenborg’s Heaven & Hell once. It was a massive paperback, and mostly what I remember about it is how mundane it was. The damn thing reads like an urban planning textbook. He’s basically just detailing how things work, where everyone lives and what gets done and who does it. i don’t know what happened to that copy. i probably left it in oregon when i moved. still, what a wild and fascinating guy. he gets name-checked in the strangest places. turns up a couple times in the CANTOS, I think

  7. Justin Taylor

      pr- I read about half of Swedenborg’s Heaven & Hell once. It was a massive paperback, and mostly what I remember about it is how mundane it was. The damn thing reads like an urban planning textbook. He’s basically just detailing how things work, where everyone lives and what gets done and who does it. i don’t know what happened to that copy. i probably left it in oregon when i moved. still, what a wild and fascinating guy. he gets name-checked in the strangest places. turns up a couple times in the CANTOS, I think

  8. pr

      Yes, I own Heaven and Hell and it is mundane- I never finished it. I did finish the old testament and read pages and pages of so and so begat so and so- word for word. that was rough going, in regards to mundane. This book, conversations with angels, is sort of a “best of” book. Bits from heaven and hell and bits from other things. It’s not as mundane. I envy the bel

  9. pr

      Whoops- sorry-on shitty computer.
      i envythe beleivers. the visionaries- i want to know about them. i found swedenborg upsetting though at times- the whole possible craziness of him. that can be disturbing, although its been largely refuted because he also participated in society quite normally.

      william blake is far from mundane though, don’t you think?

  10. Justin Taylor

      I’ll look for this Swedenborg you’re talking about. Honestly, part of what I liked about Heaven & Hell was the mundanity- the depth of detail which he was able to witness/invent, and the fact that, having done so, he felt compelled/inclined to put all of this information out into the world. It would be the equivalent of someone coming back from a trip to a country you’re fascinated by but have never been to–let’s say China–then instead of showing you the pictures they took at the Great Wall, decided instead to give you an English translation of a study of traffic patterns in downton Beijing, schematics for building a dam, etc. Whatever richness the text lacks, the inspiration-as-meta-text more than makes up for.

      Yes, I’m with you on the envy tip, but also consider the following. Somewhere or other–I think it’s in Training in Christianity–Kierkegaard points out that the person who prays “Lord please grant me Faith in you” is not an agnostic, but already in fact a believer.

      Madness and Faith have ever gone hand in hand. Likewise Miracles and Violence. Isn’t Dionysus born after being sewn into Zeus’s thigh for the remainder of his gestation after his human mother accidentally looks directly upon the God and is destroyed thereby? Whatever is out there–assuming that Something indeed is–it’s fullness is of the shattering, as much as of the completing kind. Madness/faith or Miracle/violence; one is perhaps always the needle in the haystack of the other, but the relationship is highly volatile- nonstatic; inverts on a dime. Isn’t this why O’Connor called her Misfit a prophet gone wrong?

  11. Justin Taylor

      I’ll look for this Swedenborg you’re talking about. Honestly, part of what I liked about Heaven & Hell was the mundanity- the depth of detail which he was able to witness/invent, and the fact that, having done so, he felt compelled/inclined to put all of this information out into the world. It would be the equivalent of someone coming back from a trip to a country you’re fascinated by but have never been to–let’s say China–then instead of showing you the pictures they took at the Great Wall, decided instead to give you an English translation of a study of traffic patterns in downton Beijing, schematics for building a dam, etc. Whatever richness the text lacks, the inspiration-as-meta-text more than makes up for.

      Yes, I’m with you on the envy tip, but also consider the following. Somewhere or other–I think it’s in Training in Christianity–Kierkegaard points out that the person who prays “Lord please grant me Faith in you” is not an agnostic, but already in fact a believer.

      Madness and Faith have ever gone hand in hand. Likewise Miracles and Violence. Isn’t Dionysus born after being sewn into Zeus’s thigh for the remainder of his gestation after his human mother accidentally looks directly upon the God and is destroyed thereby? Whatever is out there–assuming that Something indeed is–it’s fullness is of the shattering, as much as of the completing kind. Madness/faith or Miracle/violence; one is perhaps always the needle in the haystack of the other, but the relationship is highly volatile- nonstatic; inverts on a dime. Isn’t this why O’Connor called her Misfit a prophet gone wrong?

  12. jereme

      eh kierkegaard could have a point.

      i am gathering he is stating ‘if you ask for faith in a lord then you believe’?

      yes and no.

      Asking for faith in something you are unsure about and do not believe in caries no negative consequences, no?

      some one might want to believe and is asking ‘god’ to manifest himself.

      i mean who wouldn’t want to believe in a creator and something bigger than this temporary existence?

      pr,

      why do you envy people like this? i don’t understand. extremes are extreme.

      he is no different than pol pot or stalin. they were visionaries too.

  13. jereme

      eh kierkegaard could have a point.

      i am gathering he is stating ‘if you ask for faith in a lord then you believe’?

      yes and no.

      Asking for faith in something you are unsure about and do not believe in caries no negative consequences, no?

      some one might want to believe and is asking ‘god’ to manifest himself.

      i mean who wouldn’t want to believe in a creator and something bigger than this temporary existence?

      pr,

      why do you envy people like this? i don’t understand. extremes are extreme.

      he is no different than pol pot or stalin. they were visionaries too.

  14. pr

      Wow, I thank both of you for taking my obsessions, or cares, so seriously.

      I am going to go bottom to top here, and am on the road, so may not discuss this as well as I’d like.

      Jereme- I understand your comparison to Stalin and Pol Pot (with whom I was once obsessed, and read “brother number one” a great biography of him, and all sorts of other stuff, and what freaked me out is he studied at the sorbonne -when my parents were there- when communism was fashionable)- but you can also compare him to Martin Luther King and- the guy I said I liked who you agreed was not bad- Jimmy Carter. Also, there are other people of other faiths that have done good. But I am going to stick to Christianity because that is my personal background, my childhood. Not every crazy visionary is a bad person. But many are. I like Swedenborg’s new take of christianity that faith enough is not enough- charity is it’s equal. I like that a lot. I also like that he knew that many non=-christians ended up in heaven. he was cool. I also liked helen keller a lot when i was 9 or so- she was a swedenborgian. But I truly understand your problems with him.

      Justin-
      What I like about what you like about his boring “subway map” stuff is how it compares to my ideas of aspergers and autism. Clearly, the man was touched. And he had a huge change, a breakdown, and so on. But his work is very minutely descriptive of another world. Similiarly obsessive to little boys who memorize train shcedules, or – more common- baseball statisitics. Compulsion as a gift? Also, photographic memory. I could digress into my whole problem with “the spectrum” here, but I won’t right now, cause I don’t have time.
      Re: Kierkergaard, it’s been so long since I read him. I can’t really respond. Hmm.

      And the misfit was a prophet gone wrong? I forget that, but yes, all of her prophets suffered and sinned and did horrible things. The prophet from the violent shall bare it away (AG? is that it? the novella) murdered a retarded cousin of his to fulfill his course as a prophet? And the angel who steals the leg of the girl (who walks on water…he is an angel) in good country people- is he “nice” or good or anything but bringing God’s work to a human? No.

      But madness and faith I find upsetting. I find it upsetting – Swedenborg’s visions. I find madness upsetting. Have you walked through the hallways of a mental hospital or ward? Anyway, the jesus delusions in Yates’ book Disturbing the Peace broke my heart. I understand the connection between violence/pain/suffering and transformation and madness/faith but like i said in the beginning of the post- it scares me.

  15. pr

      Wow, I thank both of you for taking my obsessions, or cares, so seriously.

      I am going to go bottom to top here, and am on the road, so may not discuss this as well as I’d like.

      Jereme- I understand your comparison to Stalin and Pol Pot (with whom I was once obsessed, and read “brother number one” a great biography of him, and all sorts of other stuff, and what freaked me out is he studied at the sorbonne -when my parents were there- when communism was fashionable)- but you can also compare him to Martin Luther King and- the guy I said I liked who you agreed was not bad- Jimmy Carter. Also, there are other people of other faiths that have done good. But I am going to stick to Christianity because that is my personal background, my childhood. Not every crazy visionary is a bad person. But many are. I like Swedenborg’s new take of christianity that faith enough is not enough- charity is it’s equal. I like that a lot. I also like that he knew that many non=-christians ended up in heaven. he was cool. I also liked helen keller a lot when i was 9 or so- she was a swedenborgian. But I truly understand your problems with him.

      Justin-
      What I like about what you like about his boring “subway map” stuff is how it compares to my ideas of aspergers and autism. Clearly, the man was touched. And he had a huge change, a breakdown, and so on. But his work is very minutely descriptive of another world. Similiarly obsessive to little boys who memorize train shcedules, or – more common- baseball statisitics. Compulsion as a gift? Also, photographic memory. I could digress into my whole problem with “the spectrum” here, but I won’t right now, cause I don’t have time.
      Re: Kierkergaard, it’s been so long since I read him. I can’t really respond. Hmm.

      And the misfit was a prophet gone wrong? I forget that, but yes, all of her prophets suffered and sinned and did horrible things. The prophet from the violent shall bare it away (AG? is that it? the novella) murdered a retarded cousin of his to fulfill his course as a prophet? And the angel who steals the leg of the girl (who walks on water…he is an angel) in good country people- is he “nice” or good or anything but bringing God’s work to a human? No.

      But madness and faith I find upsetting. I find it upsetting – Swedenborg’s visions. I find madness upsetting. Have you walked through the hallways of a mental hospital or ward? Anyway, the jesus delusions in Yates’ book Disturbing the Peace broke my heart. I understand the connection between violence/pain/suffering and transformation and madness/faith but like i said in the beginning of the post- it scares me.

  16. jereme

      pr,

      i guess we need to dlineate the difference between extremist and visionary.

      king and carter were fighting for equality. equality, by definition, cannot be extreme.

      so i dunno. we are both right/wrong but me more so than you because i will cry if i am not right.

  17. jereme

      pr,

      i guess we need to dlineate the difference between extremist and visionary.

      king and carter were fighting for equality. equality, by definition, cannot be extreme.

      so i dunno. we are both right/wrong but me more so than you because i will cry if i am not right.

  18. pr

      don’t cry- there are many rights when discussing some stuff, no?

      i guess the real diff between swedenborg and any of these politicians is- he saw crazy stuff- stuff that could be hallucinations- and the others were not known for their visions/hallucinations, but rather their ideas and their faith in their ideas and the way they tried to execute their ideas. swedenborg travelled to heaven and hell. no on else says they did that of the above mentioned. pol pot created hell on earth. mlk tried to end evil on earth. it’s different.

  19. pr

      don’t cry- there are many rights when discussing some stuff, no?

      i guess the real diff between swedenborg and any of these politicians is- he saw crazy stuff- stuff that could be hallucinations- and the others were not known for their visions/hallucinations, but rather their ideas and their faith in their ideas and the way they tried to execute their ideas. swedenborg travelled to heaven and hell. no on else says they did that of the above mentioned. pol pot created hell on earth. mlk tried to end evil on earth. it’s different.

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  21. Jereme Dean

      yes.

      i think philip k. dick would have been more on the money.

      he saw some crazy shit too.

      i guess i am desensitized to this stuff. my schizophrenic uncle thought the was michael the arch angel.

      i remember this time when i was 14 i was sitting with him in the mental hospital, he had just been picked up on the streets after escaping, and he was telling the psych doc how he had been washing his hair in a gas station bathroom when an angel appeared behind him (the story was rich with detail). i never heard how the angel talking finished.

      he attacked me suddenly. his excuse was i made a face and he could tell wasn’t a believer.

      now when i hear people talk about this shit i just look at my feet and hope not to get attacked.

  22. Jereme Dean

      yes.

      i think philip k. dick would have been more on the money.

      he saw some crazy shit too.

      i guess i am desensitized to this stuff. my schizophrenic uncle thought the was michael the arch angel.

      i remember this time when i was 14 i was sitting with him in the mental hospital, he had just been picked up on the streets after escaping, and he was telling the psych doc how he had been washing his hair in a gas station bathroom when an angel appeared behind him (the story was rich with detail). i never heard how the angel talking finished.

      he attacked me suddenly. his excuse was i made a face and he could tell wasn’t a believer.

      now when i hear people talk about this shit i just look at my feet and hope not to get attacked.

  23. pr

      You are awesome. You are funny, too.

      I am very sensitive to people and their God and Jesus and angel stuff- I worked in halfway houses for the mentally ill…and well. I still feel very confused and scared by that stuff.

      The transformation/pain.violence thing I am OK with. The madness stuff terrifies me. Swedenborg led a very normal life after his “breakdown” he functioned well in society, unlike most crazy people. he is not considered mad by many.

  24. pr

      You are awesome. You are funny, too.

      I am very sensitive to people and their God and Jesus and angel stuff- I worked in halfway houses for the mentally ill…and well. I still feel very confused and scared by that stuff.

      The transformation/pain.violence thing I am OK with. The madness stuff terrifies me. Swedenborg led a very normal life after his “breakdown” he functioned well in society, unlike most crazy people. he is not considered mad by many.

  25. Jereme Dean

      pr,

      what do you consider a mentally ill half way house?

      when Dammasch hospital closed they released all of the non-violent mentally ill to the streets. literally to the fucking streets. my uncle ended up living in a large victorian house in downtown portland with other mentally ill men. he had roommates. every one had roommates. i remember there being one male nurse who watched a little black and white television in a locked room near the kitchen. he was the caretaker and never came out.

      there was a payphone in there and you never knew which crazy would answer.

      is that what you mean by a halfway house?

      i have a lot of bad memories of that place and of dammasch hospital. my family always made me go visit him because they wouldn’t go but felt guilty.

  26. Jereme Dean

      pr,

      what do you consider a mentally ill half way house?

      when Dammasch hospital closed they released all of the non-violent mentally ill to the streets. literally to the fucking streets. my uncle ended up living in a large victorian house in downtown portland with other mentally ill men. he had roommates. every one had roommates. i remember there being one male nurse who watched a little black and white television in a locked room near the kitchen. he was the caretaker and never came out.

      there was a payphone in there and you never knew which crazy would answer.

      is that what you mean by a halfway house?

      i have a lot of bad memories of that place and of dammasch hospital. my family always made me go visit him because they wouldn’t go but felt guilty.

  27. pr

      Yes! That is what I mean. I worked in the late 80s at 3 different halfway houses in the Boston area. I was getting my degree in psych. I didn’t only sleep in front of a TV! In fact, my office never had a TV. I cooked dinner for 22 peeps on my night shift. I dispensed meds. I did some “counseling”. I was 20 yrs old. I got paid 5 bucks an hour. I could go on and on, but I did not pursue psych like I thought I would, after that year. Anyway, that is not my only “fear” of madness issue. But , wow, yes, halfway houses for the mentally ill. A trip.

  28. pr

      Yes! That is what I mean. I worked in the late 80s at 3 different halfway houses in the Boston area. I was getting my degree in psych. I didn’t only sleep in front of a TV! In fact, my office never had a TV. I cooked dinner for 22 peeps on my night shift. I dispensed meds. I did some “counseling”. I was 20 yrs old. I got paid 5 bucks an hour. I could go on and on, but I did not pursue psych like I thought I would, after that year. Anyway, that is not my only “fear” of madness issue. But , wow, yes, halfway houses for the mentally ill. A trip.

  29. jereme

      mentally ill people PLUS that horrible boston accent? you are a goliath among sparrows.

  30. jereme

      mentally ill people PLUS that horrible boston accent? you are a goliath among sparrows.

  31. Alan

      I’ve been going to a Swedenborgian church the last few months–what the quote above is such a wonderful example of is that heaven and hell, according to Swedenborg, are states of mind (and this extends to the cosmological realm — God allows hell to exist because some people prefer hell (and the “happiness” described above). Free will, always.

      Heaven and Hell is a tough book of his to start with (though it’s probably his most well known), I’d recommend Divine Love and Wisdom, or Divine Providence…

  32. Alan

      I’ve been going to a Swedenborgian church the last few months–what the quote above is such a wonderful example of is that heaven and hell, according to Swedenborg, are states of mind (and this extends to the cosmological realm — God allows hell to exist because some people prefer hell (and the “happiness” described above). Free will, always.

      Heaven and Hell is a tough book of his to start with (though it’s probably his most well known), I’d recommend Divine Love and Wisdom, or Divine Providence…