Mean
Mean Monday: Bukowski dick
God, Bukowski. Did that guy really ever have to exist? I think it was funny and ‘connective’ as a 17 year old seeing books with titles like ‘sometimes you get so alone it just makes sense’ or whatever permutation of that title was on that book cover. But like Nirvana to rock music, an ‘innovator’ who makes a whole previously quieter genre big bucks famous, Bukowski is probably more responsible for boring, retarded writing than, well, anybody maybe, except for Thoreau?
Nah, it’s Bukowski.
Case in Point: this dude on 3:am. 3AM is confusing in that they seem split between interesting, weird writing (mostly culled by Ellen and Tao) and the UK grime / ‘Brutalist’ garbage, which is often like the ULA junior.
I think about the time I was offered coke at college and replied that I wasn’t thirsty. When a taxi-driver asked if I liked ‘bud’ and I thought he meant Budweiser.
I think I wrote something a joke like this when I was 17, before I’d tried beer.
This set of ‘poems’ newly published on 3AM, I’m really not sure who thought this would be interesting, maybe they know their market or something, but ruminations on reality TV, cokeheads, and bad parents, well, hrm, those are all things that are hard to talk about well probably, and especially not in the manner of Dr. B.
Add that the 3:AM dude looks like Billy Corgan on meth, and yip. But that’s below the belt.
One day they will publish a selected works of Bukowski that will be worth buying, as 1 in 18 of his poems will sometimes knock you on your ass, but otherwise, well bub, thanks a lot.
Bukowski and Burroughs are always behind the counter at bookstores because their punk readers keep on stealing them. nobody ever steals Virginia Woolf. what’s wrong with this world?
Bukowski and Burroughs are always behind the counter at bookstores because their punk readers keep on stealing them. nobody ever steals Virginia Woolf. what’s wrong with this world?
At least Nirvana had the good sense not to record every single second of every single day of their lives and release all of it, three releases a year, for the rest of eternity. Buk is like the Tupac of Literature I Don’t Care About.
Also, as long as we’re being mean, somebody might as well mention that a lot of what gets written in the Ellen-Tao vein by people who happen to not be Ellen or Tao falls square in the Buk-‘Pac-Thoreau-ULA category of “boring, retarded writing.”
Ooh, bald guy, scare me with the TRUTH that a woman with “a babies rattle” [sic] also has DRUGS in her bag. I wonder if she does the drugs in front of the baby, and this is like the TOUGH REAL WORLD OF TRUTH or if it’s like ironic, because she’s like a woman who does drugs but babies don’t do drugs–uknow? Also, someone tell me what “teasing wisps of fringe” means.
Time to set the Livejournal back to private, buddy.
The problem with all style-based movements is that they reward adhering to the style while failing to adequately punish or filter out bad art. When you’re willing to accept any old piece of shitty art simply because it successfully meets the most elementary formal requirements you’ve set for what art “should be,” then what you’re dealing with isn’t really a school, a movement or a style at all anymore. It’s a trend now, like skinny jeans, Tamagotchis, using the word “ginormous,” or No Sex in the Champagne Room.
At least Nirvana had the good sense not to record every single second of every single day of their lives and release all of it, three releases a year, for the rest of eternity. Buk is like the Tupac of Literature I Don’t Care About.
Also, as long as we’re being mean, somebody might as well mention that a lot of what gets written in the Ellen-Tao vein by people who happen to not be Ellen or Tao falls square in the Buk-‘Pac-Thoreau-ULA category of “boring, retarded writing.”
Ooh, bald guy, scare me with the TRUTH that a woman with “a babies rattle” [sic] also has DRUGS in her bag. I wonder if she does the drugs in front of the baby, and this is like the TOUGH REAL WORLD OF TRUTH or if it’s like ironic, because she’s like a woman who does drugs but babies don’t do drugs–uknow? Also, someone tell me what “teasing wisps of fringe” means.
Time to set the Livejournal back to private, buddy.
The problem with all style-based movements is that they reward adhering to the style while failing to adequately punish or filter out bad art. When you’re willing to accept any old piece of shitty art simply because it successfully meets the most elementary formal requirements you’ve set for what art “should be,” then what you’re dealing with isn’t really a school, a movement or a style at all anymore. It’s a trend now, like skinny jeans, Tamagotchis, using the word “ginormous,” or No Sex in the Champagne Room.
I’ve admittedly never read much Bukowski poetry, but I’ve read all his early novels, so in my head he is a novelist, and I think the plain style is more forgiving in that medium. That 3am thing guy’s picture is a little frightening. Could have just put the picture there with no writing.
I tend to write in a similar plain style by default. It comes out plain and I have to add style later, if at all. I’m probably at the tail end of my Bukowski phase, moving nicely into my Beckett phase.
this is a good post.
it is confusing though. are you being mean to bukowski or 3am? it read like you bashed bukowski merely to segue your 3 am bashing.
the ‘mean’ is growing firm. good job.
now pick a subject where you alienate people you don’t want to. people you value.
true mean
come heavy or don’t come at all
I’ve admittedly never read much Bukowski poetry, but I’ve read all his early novels, so in my head he is a novelist, and I think the plain style is more forgiving in that medium. That 3am thing guy’s picture is a little frightening. Could have just put the picture there with no writing.
I tend to write in a similar plain style by default. It comes out plain and I have to add style later, if at all. I’m probably at the tail end of my Bukowski phase, moving nicely into my Beckett phase.
this is a good post.
it is confusing though. are you being mean to bukowski or 3am? it read like you bashed bukowski merely to segue your 3 am bashing.
the ‘mean’ is growing firm. good job.
now pick a subject where you alienate people you don’t want to. people you value.
true mean
come heavy or don’t come at all
I fuckin’ love Tamagotchis.
I fuckin’ love Tamagotchis.
i feel like bukowski to beckett is a really weird leap. i went from bukowski to ashbery when i first began seriously reading poetry. that’s probably equally weird.
i feel like bukowski to beckett is a really weird leap. i went from bukowski to ashbery when i first began seriously reading poetry. that’s probably equally weird.
i agree with darby.
his poetry isnt all shit though. it reminds me of hank williams. i only read it after i heard recordings of him reading it, so i can always hear his voice in my head very clearly when i read it, which makes it semi-likeable. buk, not hank. i love hank.
but back to agreeing with darby. i like his early novels. the best word i have t describe it is that it is “human” even if it gets a little absurd at times,
but dont we all.
god bless you fine folks at html.
i agree with darby.
his poetry isnt all shit though. it reminds me of hank williams. i only read it after i heard recordings of him reading it, so i can always hear his voice in my head very clearly when i read it, which makes it semi-likeable. buk, not hank. i love hank.
but back to agreeing with darby. i like his early novels. the best word i have t describe it is that it is “human” even if it gets a little absurd at times,
but dont we all.
god bless you fine folks at html.
I like some of the “brutalist” stuff, in particular, Tony’ O’Neill. I will add that Hemingway also spawned a lot of terrible writing, as did Faulkner and Henry Miller…and well, just about any writer with influence and a very developed voice. Cormac McCarthy’s early work was super Faulknery and – in my mind- not his best. But then he really grew into his own, probably well into middle age. Oh -and then there was Ray Carver!!!! AG! I think he’s guiltier than Bukowski for insiring insipid crap. Anyway, tough call.
Also, this guy doesn’t look much older than 17, so why expect him to write differently than a 17 yr old? I guess picking on 3am isn’t as fun to me as when you were picking on Narrative, or – I wish someone had joined in- the National Book Award judge, Elinor Lipman. I’d rather read this guy’s juvenalia than Isabel’s Bed any day. I’d like to see a review of that book up here by one of you, quoting big passages, etc…
I like some of the “brutalist” stuff, in particular, Tony’ O’Neill. I will add that Hemingway also spawned a lot of terrible writing, as did Faulkner and Henry Miller…and well, just about any writer with influence and a very developed voice. Cormac McCarthy’s early work was super Faulknery and – in my mind- not his best. But then he really grew into his own, probably well into middle age. Oh -and then there was Ray Carver!!!! AG! I think he’s guiltier than Bukowski for insiring insipid crap. Anyway, tough call.
Also, this guy doesn’t look much older than 17, so why expect him to write differently than a 17 yr old? I guess picking on 3am isn’t as fun to me as when you were picking on Narrative, or – I wish someone had joined in- the National Book Award judge, Elinor Lipman. I’d rather read this guy’s juvenalia than Isabel’s Bed any day. I’d like to see a review of that book up here by one of you, quoting big passages, etc…
nirvana wrote a couple of really fine records, and then, because the songwriter killed himself, we are all forced to go out and buy a four disc boxed set wherein three of the discs are the man tuning his guitar into a Califone 1300AV AC/DC cassette recorder/player.
sadly, chronic inebriates are, despite the fact that they punish their bodies enormously, elephants, constitution-wise. so buk lived to type and type and type. filling book after book after book. “inspiring” jack-ass after jack-ass after jack-ass. (probably, also, people who don’t suck. but, also, people who do.)
nirvana wrote a couple of really fine records, and then, because the songwriter killed himself, we are all forced to go out and buy a four disc boxed set wherein three of the discs are the man tuning his guitar into a Califone 1300AV AC/DC cassette recorder/player.
sadly, chronic inebriates are, despite the fact that they punish their bodies enormously, elephants, constitution-wise. so buk lived to type and type and type. filling book after book after book. “inspiring” jack-ass after jack-ass after jack-ass. (probably, also, people who don’t suck. but, also, people who do.)
And I love Bukowski’s novels, as well as all of the other writers I mentioned. I just think, because of their huge influence, they managed to inspire crap, as well as lots of good stuff, too.
And I love Bukowski’s novels, as well as all of the other writers I mentioned. I just think, because of their huge influence, they managed to inspire crap, as well as lots of good stuff, too.
i like nirvana but they the legion of shit that came following in their wake is gross
faith no more, i also love, but is probably responsible for almost as bad amounts of shit
justin, best american comments of the net 09
i like nirvana but they the legion of shit that came following in their wake is gross
faith no more, i also love, but is probably responsible for almost as bad amounts of shit
justin, best american comments of the net 09
bashing an artist for their art i can understand
bashing because you don’t like the emulation is pretty weak
bashing an artist for their art i can understand
bashing because you don’t like the emulation is pretty weak
the emulation is still an ‘artist’s art’
and likely they would not consider it an ’emulation’
duh
the emulation is still an ‘artist’s art’
and likely they would not consider it an ’emulation’
duh
he did make the point that buk has some decent writing but it gets buried under his enormous output.
i absolutely agree with that.
a lot of bukowski is pure crap and almost all of his imitators are too. ‘love is a dog from hell’ and ‘women’ are pretty awesome.
my bukowski imitations are bad. and my ee cummings imitations are worse. i’m glad they will remain hidden forever.
i hate nirvana.
oh and something else, pr said that they inspired some good stuff, and i agree. but there is a difference between inspiration and emulation. it’s the emulation that sucks.
he did make the point that buk has some decent writing but it gets buried under his enormous output.
i absolutely agree with that.
a lot of bukowski is pure crap and almost all of his imitators are too. ‘love is a dog from hell’ and ‘women’ are pretty awesome.
my bukowski imitations are bad. and my ee cummings imitations are worse. i’m glad they will remain hidden forever.
i hate nirvana.
oh and something else, pr said that they inspired some good stuff, and i agree. but there is a difference between inspiration and emulation. it’s the emulation that sucks.
But can you fault the author for the emulation is what I think jereme means, or not, or is what I am making it mean now. I don’t know if Bukowski ever meant to start a movement. He was just writing and trying to get by I think. Should authors now be wary of the movements they inadvertently start because it may be emulated poorly?
But can you fault the author for the emulation is what I think jereme means, or not, or is what I am making it mean now. I don’t know if Bukowski ever meant to start a movement. He was just writing and trying to get by I think. Should authors now be wary of the movements they inadvertently start because it may be emulated poorly?
both, to me, are mostly shit
booze and women, yeah, good things, but if i want to hear sleezebag drivel i’ll go watch tv or sit in a restaurant near some dudes
both, to me, are mostly shit
booze and women, yeah, good things, but if i want to hear sleezebag drivel i’ll go watch tv or sit in a restaurant near some dudes
jereme, you should be a mean monday guest writer. bring it all out and get real wid it
jereme, you should be a mean monday guest writer. bring it all out and get real wid it
Nirvana’s awesome. Just so we’re clear where I stand. and Hank Williams too, actually.
I’m all for imitating other writers as an exercise, or just for the hell of it. My problem isn’t with derived or inspired-by art, it’s with Shitty Art. That’s all.
Blake- you’re the head editor here. Nominate my comment for a Pushcart.
PS- I finally started reading Blood Meridian. Holy Fuck.
Nirvana’s awesome. Just so we’re clear where I stand. and Hank Williams too, actually.
I’m all for imitating other writers as an exercise, or just for the hell of it. My problem isn’t with derived or inspired-by art, it’s with Shitty Art. That’s all.
Blake- you’re the head editor here. Nominate my comment for a Pushcart.
PS- I finally started reading Blood Meridian. Holy Fuck.
Oh and PPS- Man I straightup love Tony O’Neill. His work is weird and funny as all shit, plus his daughter is the coolest little kid.
Oh and PPS- Man I straightup love Tony O’Neill. His work is weird and funny as all shit, plus his daughter is the coolest little kid.
darby yes that is what i meant.
he did a home reading a little before his death and admitted writing was his therapy. it was his form of dealing with loneliness/alienation.
it may or may not be the truth. i am not him nor am i his champion.
tao lin should be blamed for tao lin emulation. he promotes it vehemently.
blake,
what do you mean by scumbag drivel? can you elaborate?
also curious how an entire book of rape is considered above bukowski’s ‘scum bag drivel’
help me differentiate so i can understand. i be just a simple man with little brain function.
i will do the mean guest writer thing. i do not mind alienating myself from others. let me know if you are serious.
darby yes that is what i meant.
he did a home reading a little before his death and admitted writing was his therapy. it was his form of dealing with loneliness/alienation.
it may or may not be the truth. i am not him nor am i his champion.
tao lin should be blamed for tao lin emulation. he promotes it vehemently.
blake,
what do you mean by scumbag drivel? can you elaborate?
also curious how an entire book of rape is considered above bukowski’s ‘scum bag drivel’
help me differentiate so i can understand. i be just a simple man with little brain function.
i will do the mean guest writer thing. i do not mind alienating myself from others. let me know if you are serious.
i just bought blood meridian and blogged about it
funny
i am excited
i just bought blood meridian and blogged about it
funny
i am excited
I think in a sense that people emulate you is a sign of success. Or adoration or something. I remember in high school there was this poster contest everyone was drawing, like a just say no poster contest, and I was doing this design and I thought it was pretty good but this other guy was totally doing what I was doing only crappier, and I got mad at the guy. I called him on it and he just kind of denied it. But I think if it were better than mine I wouldn’t have been so mad about it. I probably would’ve quit and tried a whole other approach. I ended up placing in that contest and won ten bucks. It was the first money I ever got for art. I don’t know what I am talking about or why or when.
I think in a sense that people emulate you is a sign of success. Or adoration or something. I remember in high school there was this poster contest everyone was drawing, like a just say no poster contest, and I was doing this design and I thought it was pretty good but this other guy was totally doing what I was doing only crappier, and I got mad at the guy. I called him on it and he just kind of denied it. But I think if it were better than mine I wouldn’t have been so mad about it. I probably would’ve quit and tried a whole other approach. I ended up placing in that contest and won ten bucks. It was the first money I ever got for art. I don’t know what I am talking about or why or when.
good call jereme because that has always been my take on bukowski, pure loneliness. drunk – yes, sleezebag – maybe. but i always came away from buk’s novels feeling very very sorry for the man as a human being.
and if people read buk and all they see is booze and tales about pussy that may or may not be based on real events. they are missing something profound.
good call jereme because that has always been my take on bukowski, pure loneliness. drunk – yes, sleezebag – maybe. but i always came away from buk’s novels feeling very very sorry for the man as a human being.
and if people read buk and all they see is booze and tales about pussy that may or may not be based on real events. they are missing something profound.
blood meridian. mm.
i called bukowski scum bag drivel because its all one note to me. a very boring, standard note.
rape, i don’t know, i didn’t find it unscumbagdrivel necessarily either, though it definitely left me with some impression other than ‘this guy likes to drink and fuck.’
don’t get me wrong, i like to drink and fuck, but hearing an old guy talk about it for a whole book makes me bored
blood meridian. mm.
i called bukowski scum bag drivel because its all one note to me. a very boring, standard note.
rape, i don’t know, i didn’t find it unscumbagdrivel necessarily either, though it definitely left me with some impression other than ‘this guy likes to drink and fuck.’
don’t get me wrong, i like to drink and fuck, but hearing an old guy talk about it for a whole book makes me bored
like i said, i like occasional bukowski, i own several books. but mainly the words that come to mind are ‘overrated’ and ‘repetitive without purpose’.
like i said, i like occasional bukowski, i own several books. but mainly the words that come to mind are ‘overrated’ and ‘repetitive without purpose’.
i concur with barry
to be honest, i believe the same about sam pink’s writing
if people only find imagery of blood, death, mutilation, homosexuality, etc, they are missing something entirely in sam’s writing
the same something i find in bukowski’s works
maybe i am just slightly crazy and completely off
i concur with barry
to be honest, i believe the same about sam pink’s writing
if people only find imagery of blood, death, mutilation, homosexuality, etc, they are missing something entirely in sam’s writing
the same something i find in bukowski’s works
maybe i am just slightly crazy and completely off
i agree with jereme’s last comment
i’ve connected to all the bukowski i’ve read, it doesn’t seem one note and surface to me. i’m not saying that people who don’t connect are missing something, though, who knows, maybe jereme and i are making it up
we are definitely making it up
i agree with jereme’s last comment
i’ve connected to all the bukowski i’ve read, it doesn’t seem one note and surface to me. i’m not saying that people who don’t connect are missing something, though, who knows, maybe jereme and i are making it up
we are definitely making it up
Bukowski, to me, had genuis moments. Truly honest heartbreaking great stuff. He also furthered the idea of “everyman” writing, which is to say, that some poor shmuck’s life is actually interesting. Eons ago I went to Film Forum and saw the documentary film about him- I can’t remember the name of it. He turned his hard core suffering self into something more than a postman. And that said- I am not being sarcastic- being a good postman is no joke. He wrote some great novels. They deserve all of their praise.
Henry Miller. I loved Tropic of Cancer, and – man, years ago, some of his other stuff- but Sexus, Nexus and Plexus? No thanks. So many great writers have bad moments- they are human? (What matter is their greatness, not thier missteps, in my mind. )I know many who disagree with me on that. Emulation, like I tried to explain but did so poorly, (my bad), is a sign of great influence. Some of that will be good stuff, some not. But on the lighter side of this discussion, great great writers, have produced some very bad writers in their wake. I put Bukowski, Hemingway, Faulkner, and many others in that group.
I do think without Hemingway, we’d have no Harry Crews. Maybe no Bukowski. And many others. We’d also have less crap. I’ll take the good stuff and not worry about the crap. But this is a “fun” sort of discussion. So when we see some 17 yr old British dude writing perhaps the first published stuff of his life, it make us go, tee hee at him. I’m on my fiftth glass here, but maybe that’s not for this week- mean week is over?
Bukowski, to me, had genuis moments. Truly honest heartbreaking great stuff. He also furthered the idea of “everyman” writing, which is to say, that some poor shmuck’s life is actually interesting. Eons ago I went to Film Forum and saw the documentary film about him- I can’t remember the name of it. He turned his hard core suffering self into something more than a postman. And that said- I am not being sarcastic- being a good postman is no joke. He wrote some great novels. They deserve all of their praise.
Henry Miller. I loved Tropic of Cancer, and – man, years ago, some of his other stuff- but Sexus, Nexus and Plexus? No thanks. So many great writers have bad moments- they are human? (What matter is their greatness, not thier missteps, in my mind. )I know many who disagree with me on that. Emulation, like I tried to explain but did so poorly, (my bad), is a sign of great influence. Some of that will be good stuff, some not. But on the lighter side of this discussion, great great writers, have produced some very bad writers in their wake. I put Bukowski, Hemingway, Faulkner, and many others in that group.
I do think without Hemingway, we’d have no Harry Crews. Maybe no Bukowski. And many others. We’d also have less crap. I’ll take the good stuff and not worry about the crap. But this is a “fun” sort of discussion. So when we see some 17 yr old British dude writing perhaps the first published stuff of his life, it make us go, tee hee at him. I’m on my fiftth glass here, but maybe that’s not for this week- mean week is over?
Oh, I love Nirvana. Saw them live, too. And Faith No More, too – I went to see them cause Soundgarden was opening up for them? I forget. It was all about Soundgarden at the time. It was great time for rock.
Oh, I love Nirvana. Saw them live, too. And Faith No More, too – I went to see them cause Soundgarden was opening up for them? I forget. It was all about Soundgarden at the time. It was great time for rock.
pr,
i think the documentary you are thinking of is ‘born into this’
pr,
i think the documentary you are thinking of is ‘born into this’
pr:
i like you a lot. you say smart things. things i think but dont say correctly.
pr:
i like you a lot. you say smart things. things i think but dont say correctly.
Barry, I have a total crush on you.
Barry, I have a total crush on you.
Jereme-
that may have been the name- I apologize for my bad memory. I think there is only one doc made about him. It was crushing to me. I am a huge fan but I agree that his work is not well edited- in that basically everthing he has written has been published.
This brings me to Nirvana. Kobain had nothing to do with any of the releases after his death. It had to do with others, who were trying to feed the public’s desire for more of his work, and other peoples debts. Not, by the way, Dave Grohl’s debts- the dude is rolling in his own dough, from his own music.
Jereme-
that may have been the name- I apologize for my bad memory. I think there is only one doc made about him. It was crushing to me. I am a huge fan but I agree that his work is not well edited- in that basically everthing he has written has been published.
This brings me to Nirvana. Kobain had nothing to do with any of the releases after his death. It had to do with others, who were trying to feed the public’s desire for more of his work, and other peoples debts. Not, by the way, Dave Grohl’s debts- the dude is rolling in his own dough, from his own music.
“1 in 18 of his poems will sometimes knock you on your ass, but otherwise, well bub, thanks a lot.”
Every time someone says anything about Bukowski, that is my near-verbatim response.
“1 in 18 of his poems will sometimes knock you on your ass, but otherwise, well bub, thanks a lot.”
Every time someone says anything about Bukowski, that is my near-verbatim response.
I have the born into this dvd. I think it’s a fair portrayal of him, the good and the bad.
I’ve been looking for other good writer/artist documentaries. Can anyone recommend?
I have the born into this dvd. I think it’s a fair portrayal of him, the good and the bad.
I’ve been looking for other good writer/artist documentaries. Can anyone recommend?
i like his line about ‘the frogs of his mind’ lining up to jump one more time or something
i like his line about ‘the frogs of his mind’ lining up to jump one more time or something
darby,
the band that would be king.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcu2ONECf_8
darby,
the band that would be king.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcu2ONECf_8
enjoyable conversation
enjoyable conversation
Even though you’re wrong about Bukowski, I’m cool with making fun of dead people. Add retards to that list. And cripples. I’ll even allow Eskimos to be made fun of. Fuck the lot of ’em.
But c’mon … leave Anthony Hitchin alone. (Unless he’s a dead, retarded, crippled Eskimo.)
Even though you’re wrong about Bukowski, I’m cool with making fun of dead people. Add retards to that list. And cripples. I’ll even allow Eskimos to be made fun of. Fuck the lot of ’em.
But c’mon … leave Anthony Hitchin alone. (Unless he’s a dead, retarded, crippled Eskimo.)