Uncategorized
Mean Monday: Narrative Magazine Again! A Comment That Takes Things One Step Further
I was starting to understand Blake Butler’s argument regarding the amount of solicited writers that Narrative Magazine publishes versus the money they take from the unsolicited pile. And then David Kemp left this in the comment section, which spreads the responsibility even further than the editors of Narrative and I found his comment more or less convincing:
First rule of dignity:
1) Never pay to have your work published.
More important, never pay to have your work “considered” by a “reputable” publication, unless it’s a small press and they might publish your entire collection/novel with what small funds the reading fees generate.
Reading fees for a single story? This, friends, is insane.
Better to spend your 20 bucks supporting a realistic press that makes no money at all.
Narrative, nice try, and in the future, gag on the virtual revulsion at your tactics.
“To labor and not to seek reward”–Ignatius
Narrative, who the cornshock do you think you are?
Hey, all you solicited authors, tell them no.
Tell them no. Tell them “I will not ruin my name on the backs young authors.”
And, hey, we’re watching.
Narrative Magazine, what has become of you? You hacksaw heartbreak waste.
Friends, Spend the twenty on a new book, or an old book, or a book that doesn’t exist yet.
Have some dignity.
Narrative Magazine will right itself once it realizes its fundamental error.
Magazines pay (or don’t pay) contributors for their work. One thing they aren’t, and should never be allowed to get away with, is charging reading fees.
That’s vanity press signature all over what used to be worthwhile.
Narrative Magazine? Apparently, they ain’t nothing special.
Tags: narrative magazine
Can we talk about Richard Bausch coming in second in a recent Narrative Magazine story contest? I don’t mean talk about it in some conspiracy, all-contests-are-rigged way, but in a really-Richard-Bausch-is-entering-the-Narrative-contest? way. I mean: really?
I don’t know if this says something strange about Narrative, or about Richard Bausch, or about the state of publishing, or just … well, I have no idea, but it’s kind of weird, right? I looked at that email for a long time, and then I looked at it some more, and then I stopped, because my brain hurt.
Discuss?
Also: Narrative should send me fewer emails.
Also also: Hello. To those of you I know and sorta know and don’t know at all.
Can we talk about Richard Bausch coming in second in a recent Narrative Magazine story contest? I don’t mean talk about it in some conspiracy, all-contests-are-rigged way, but in a really-Richard-Bausch-is-entering-the-Narrative-contest? way. I mean: really?
I don’t know if this says something strange about Narrative, or about Richard Bausch, or about the state of publishing, or just … well, I have no idea, but it’s kind of weird, right? I looked at that email for a long time, and then I looked at it some more, and then I stopped, because my brain hurt.
Discuss?
Also: Narrative should send me fewer emails.
Also also: Hello. To those of you I know and sorta know and don’t know at all.
Heh. Narrative sends me a shitload of emails too.
Heh. Narrative sends me a shitload of emails too.
I wanted to post this comment by David Kemp because of all of the above of what you said, Mike. I never had a huge problem- a small problem, maybe- witth Narrative until Blake started pointing things out very clearly in his other posts. And now this- Kemp wants to say to the solicited writers- refuse to partake. And I think he has a point.
“Tell them no. Tell them “I will not ruin my name on the backs young authors.””
Strong words. Not without merit.
Yeah, Narrative has kind of irritated me for a while without me being able to say exactly what irritated me about them aside from many many emails and having to “register” to read their full stories, most of which failed to convince me by their initial “non-registration-required” paragraphs that registering was worth the trouble, and then the Bausch thing just kind of stuck in my craw but again in a way I can’t quite make sense of.
Do they charge for regular submissions? Or just their contests? (which do have pretty big prize money, I guess). Or do they only do the contests?
Again with the brain hurting.
Yeah, Narrative has kind of irritated me for a while without me being able to say exactly what irritated me about them aside from many many emails and having to “register” to read their full stories, most of which failed to convince me by their initial “non-registration-required” paragraphs that registering was worth the trouble, and then the Bausch thing just kind of stuck in my craw but again in a way I can’t quite make sense of.
Do they charge for regular submissions? Or just their contests? (which do have pretty big prize money, I guess). Or do they only do the contests?
Again with the brain hurting.
My brain hurts 50 percent of the day.
They do charge, minus a few weeks a year. But, what Kemp is saying, is that big named solicited writers should refuse to publish. It’s like trickle down responsibility.
I agree with this post. I am sick of Narrative’s shit. And sick of their emails. Stand up and say no!
I agree with this post. I am sick of Narrative’s shit. And sick of their emails. Stand up and say no!
Scroll down to the bottom of their email and get your name removed from their email list. And then never ever look at Narrative’s site again!
But then you’ll miss out on the excitement when my upcoming Story of the Week comes out!
Scroll down to the bottom of their email and get your name removed from their email list. And then never ever look at Narrative’s site again!
But then you’ll miss out on the excitement when my upcoming Story of the Week comes out!
Congrats Alicia. I really mean that. I think they publish some good stuff, I just think they need to figure out a way to not charge as much for reading unsolicted stuff, and maybe publish less solicited stuff. Just reconfigure their business model.
The way I look at the $20 fee is this: It’s like a contest fee. If you get accepted, you’re on a short list for the annual Narrative Prize, a nothing-to-scoff-at $4000. They don’t publish many new and emerging writers, so your chances, once you have a story accepted, are excellent. If you aren’t accepted, it’s like any other contest you throw money at.
So much righteous indignation in this and the other Narrative threads. I especially like the irritation over having to (shudder) log-in.
If you hate it, don’t look at it. Get off their mailing list. Don’t submit, even when it’s free. It’s really all so simple. And save your ire for things that matter. Like AIG.
The way I look at the $20 fee is this: It’s like a contest fee. If you get accepted, you’re on a short list for the annual Narrative Prize, a nothing-to-scoff-at $4000. They don’t publish many new and emerging writers, so your chances, once you have a story accepted, are excellent. If you aren’t accepted, it’s like any other contest you throw money at.
So much righteous indignation in this and the other Narrative threads. I especially like the irritation over having to (shudder) log-in.
If you hate it, don’t look at it. Get off their mailing list. Don’t submit, even when it’s free. It’s really all so simple. And save your ire for things that matter. Like AIG.
I don’t really look at this as ire, but as a slow convincing on my part that maybe they should reconfigure their business model. Clearly there are more important financial issues in the world, but this is a blog about literary matters, and maybe they shouldn’t charge so much money to the unsolicited and publish so many solicited authors. That’s not rage, it’s just something to think about.
Also, Alicia, I congratulated you. Usually people say “thank you”? Just a thought.
Thanks pr.
I’m (pretty) sure they pay the big names top dollar, i.e., $1000 for short fiction (the payment range is $350 to $1000). They award an annual $4000 Narrative Prize to new and emerging writers. They award a $500 prize to the best Story of the Week. The money has to come from somewhere.
And an online short story originally published in Narrative will be in BASS 2009 next year. This is pretty huge for online fiction.
I understand the anathema though, and to those who boil and steam I say, look away..
Thanks pr.
I’m (pretty) sure they pay the big names top dollar, i.e., $1000 for short fiction (the payment range is $350 to $1000). They award an annual $4000 Narrative Prize to new and emerging writers. They award a $500 prize to the best Story of the Week. The money has to come from somewhere.
And an online short story originally published in Narrative will be in BASS 2009 next year. This is pretty huge for online fiction.
I understand the anathema though, and to those who boil and steam I say, look away..
Perhaps you posted your last comment without seeing my congrats. I have friends published in Narrative and think they do some good stuff. I just think that they do need to find some other way to fund their magazine and/or publish a higher percentage of unsolicited material. It’s just a discussion, an idea.
I also think the AIG comment was a bit much, Alicia. This is a blog that discusses literary matters. I think I have that in perspecitve in regard to world problems. And I assume many others here do. We are not here to discuss AIG.
Anyway, congrats again.
I did say thank you, but I’ll say it again. Thank you.
It’s not *your* rage, but others’ rage, not just in this thread but in all the Narrative threads I’ve been poking through @ HTML G. Narrative inspires a lot of writer-rage; not just here but everywhere.
Maybe Narrative will change their business model if it doesn’t work for them. This is new(ish) and it’s obviously meeting a lot of resistance, as lots of new stuff does. They do have free submission periods, but those writers, if accepted, won’t have a crack at the Narrative Prize.
the Bausch thing was like the big red hickey on a ho’s ass.
like seriously? your best bro won second place?
pull my other leg, it’s got dicks on it
I did say thank you, but I’ll say it again. Thank you.
It’s not *your* rage, but others’ rage, not just in this thread but in all the Narrative threads I’ve been poking through @ HTML G. Narrative inspires a lot of writer-rage; not just here but everywhere.
Maybe Narrative will change their business model if it doesn’t work for them. This is new(ish) and it’s obviously meeting a lot of resistance, as lots of new stuff does. They do have free submission periods, but those writers, if accepted, won’t have a crack at the Narrative Prize.
the Bausch thing was like the big red hickey on a ho’s ass.
like seriously? your best bro won second place?
pull my other leg, it’s got dicks on it
it is $20 for a regular submission of fiction of any length
it is $20 for a regular submission of fiction of any length
of course they pay the big names top dollar.
big names who are also on their staff list.
of course they pay the big names top dollar.
big names who are also on their staff list.
Well that’s just silliness.
I will be pulling your dick-laden leg post-haste.
Well that’s just silliness.
I will be pulling your dick-laden leg post-haste.
I think our posts are coming at different times. I missed your thanks and just got your “aig” comment.
I’m not a huge fan of rage but I do think that maybe some pressure on Narrative to figure out a different way to go about things isn’t a bad thing, and perhaps some public pressure may do the trick. I’ve tried to be very measured in my argument here. I still respect so much of what they do. I just don’t want their business model to smear the names of their good writers.
I don’t have ‘reply’ links to BB’s comment (why?) but regarding their staff list, when they like a writer they often ask them to work for them i.e., a writer submits, they likee, they publish, and then ask the writer to work for them. It looks bad, maybe, but that’s how they do it.
Regarding AIG, it’s tongue in cheek, rhetoric, hyperbole. Take what you want and disregard the rest.
I don’t have ‘reply’ links to BB’s comment (why?) but regarding their staff list, when they like a writer they often ask them to work for them i.e., a writer submits, they likee, they publish, and then ask the writer to work for them. It looks bad, maybe, but that’s how they do it.
Regarding AIG, it’s tongue in cheek, rhetoric, hyperbole. Take what you want and disregard the rest.
But Blake doesn’t charge the writers he doesn’t hire any money or pay the writers he does”hire” any money. It’s not the same, Alicia.
Sorry I misunderstood your AIG comment. The internet can make “tone” hard to distinguish.
I guess I just don’t understand what the regular-submission fees are paying for, exactly. What’s the overhead of printing an online-only mag? More than zero, maybe, but less than running a print mag. So should print mags start charging everyone reading fees to cover their costs?
If you want to run a contest, run a contest, right?
Or whatever. I guess I can just choose to not submit there, which I do choose. To not do.
Really my initial question just had to do with the mechanics of the Bausch thing. Like did he just say, “I think today I will enter this contest?” I’m not sure what the answer to that question, but each possible answer makes me sad in its own way.
I guess I just don’t understand what the regular-submission fees are paying for, exactly. What’s the overhead of printing an online-only mag? More than zero, maybe, but less than running a print mag. So should print mags start charging everyone reading fees to cover their costs?
If you want to run a contest, run a contest, right?
Or whatever. I guess I can just choose to not submit there, which I do choose. To not do.
Really my initial question just had to do with the mechanics of the Bausch thing. Like did he just say, “I think today I will enter this contest?” I’m not sure what the answer to that question, but each possible answer makes me sad in its own way.
But Blake doesn’t charge the writers he doesn’t hire any money or pay the writers he does”hire” any money. It’s not the same, Alicia.
I don’t understand. I was commenting of BB’s comment above about Narrative’s staff???:
But Blake doesn’t charge the writers he doesn’t hire any money or pay the writers he does”hire” any money. It’s not the same, Alicia.
I don’t understand. I was commenting of BB’s comment above about Narrative’s staff???:
Ok. my bad. Sorry!I misunderstood. Listen, I’m doing my best at reading the imbedded comments and following the threads and uh, taking care of shit around here.
I thought you suggested that Blake spread money around the same way Narrative does. I am sorry. I am up and down the stairs, doing shit.
RE: the regular submission fees, I’m just assuming they go to pay writers. They pay writers well. And also the annual Narrative Prize. I agree running an online magazine is low overhead when compared to a print magazine, but the money to pay writers has to come from somewhere, unless you’re Win McCormack (he’s the big bucks behind Tin House).
RE: The Richard Bausch thing–I entered that contest (and was a finalist and that’s the story they’re gonna publish)–and things that make you go HUH? The contests are open to all writers, and I guess some writers still want to enter contests, even if they’ve published all kinds of books and are like well-known? In other words, I don’t get it. I don’t get why a guy like Richard Bausch is entering contests and it’s actually very interesting to think about: Is there a point in one’s career that it’s no longer cool to enter contests? I thought about it a lot, and have no conclusions. In these economic times maybe everything goes.
RE: the regular submission fees, I’m just assuming they go to pay writers. They pay writers well. And also the annual Narrative Prize. I agree running an online magazine is low overhead when compared to a print magazine, but the money to pay writers has to come from somewhere, unless you’re Win McCormack (he’s the big bucks behind Tin House).
RE: The Richard Bausch thing–I entered that contest (and was a finalist and that’s the story they’re gonna publish)–and things that make you go HUH? The contests are open to all writers, and I guess some writers still want to enter contests, even if they’ve published all kinds of books and are like well-known? In other words, I don’t get it. I don’t get why a guy like Richard Bausch is entering contests and it’s actually very interesting to think about: Is there a point in one’s career that it’s no longer cool to enter contests? I thought about it a lot, and have no conclusions. In these economic times maybe everything goes.
Where is Blake’s post about narrative’s staff? I’m looking…Man before imbedded comments I came off much less stupid…
I love Richard Bausch’s work, because I am a fan of – well, many things – but that 80s realism gritty stuff. I read him as a young woman in the early nineties. Does he sell books??!! No. God bless him. He does what he can.
I still don’t like the business model that Narrative employs! They charge, not for a “subsciption” but for people to submit. I just think it’s not working in regard to their pub stats -ie, who they mostly publish.
Wah! How come I can’t reply to your reply?
Blake made a comment up the line about Narrative’s staff, and I think the implication was that Narrative publishes its own staff, when in fact, these writers become staff AFTER they’ve been published by Narrative.
Wah! How come I can’t reply to your reply?
Blake made a comment up the line about Narrative’s staff, and I think the implication was that Narrative publishes its own staff, when in fact, these writers become staff AFTER they’ve been published by Narrative.
OK. I wrote for “netguide’ in 1996. They had no idea how to make money. How is facebook making money? Or mp3s and music. When radio was invented, record labels sued radios for playing “free music”. The internet has not settled, and people try new models- and some of them won’t work. I don’t think Narrative’s business model will work, regardless of how good or not good their stuff is.
BTW-as soon as the internet settles, something else will come about!!
radio stations
whatever
I’m retarded and drinking.
Trying to make a point.
Myah-
Yeah, that was really my initial question. More about Bausch than about Narrative? It’s just confusing, or maybe disheartening, on the one hand I realize Bausch isn’t rich or anything, and the prizes Narrative doles out are big-ass, but still. And then do you think he was bummed out that he only got 2nd place? Was there a Will Ferrel “I drive a Dodge Stratus!” rant after the results came out?
So many questions.
Yeah, that was really my initial question. More about Bausch than about Narrative? It’s just confusing, or maybe disheartening, on the one hand I realize Bausch isn’t rich or anything, and the prizes Narrative doles out are big-ass, but still. And then do you think he was bummed out that he only got 2nd place? Was there a Will Ferrel “I drive a Dodge Stratus!” rant after the results came out?
So many questions.
Replies only go so deep.
Replies only go so deep.
Bausch making money? I am confused. How? Selling books. He’s a writers writer, a good writer, a very good writer in my estimation, but make money?
Very few people make money writing books. That’s cool. And he didn’t “enter” this prize for money, is my guess. Just to get his name out there, his name of many names, that get forgotten in the really rough biz of reading books.
https://narrativemagazine.com/friends-and-patrons
Narrative is print too
https://narrativemagazine.com/friends-and-patrons
Narrative is print too
Wish I were drinking.
Doesn’t Facebook get revenue from advertising? But they don’t have any expenses (that I know of) other than maintaining their website.
The point about Narrative is that they pay writers. In order for an online magazine to pay writers they have to have income. So they’re trying this. Narrative could go the way of most online ‘zines and not pay their contributors and make all submissions free, but that’s not their vision. They’re trying something innovative. And obviously, controversial. I’m gonna be bi-assed, being that they published me in 2004 (no submission fee and paid me $350) and will be publishing me in the near future. I’m bi-assed, prejudiced, two-faced, don’t listen to me.
Wish I were drinking.
Doesn’t Facebook get revenue from advertising? But they don’t have any expenses (that I know of) other than maintaining their website.
The point about Narrative is that they pay writers. In order for an online magazine to pay writers they have to have income. So they’re trying this. Narrative could go the way of most online ‘zines and not pay their contributors and make all submissions free, but that’s not their vision. They’re trying something innovative. And obviously, controversial. I’m gonna be bi-assed, being that they published me in 2004 (no submission fee and paid me $350) and will be publishing me in the near future. I’m bi-assed, prejudiced, two-faced, don’t listen to me.
Gene Morgan said: Replies only go so deep.
That’s heavy, man.
Thanks, I started to figure this out, and also the weirdness of the embedded replies, in that you have to scan upwards to see them. I may be dumb but I’m not that smart.
Gene Morgan said: Replies only go so deep.
That’s heavy, man.
Thanks, I started to figure this out, and also the weirdness of the embedded replies, in that you have to scan upwards to see them. I may be dumb but I’m not that smart.
Narrative is an ugly site.
They have money, they should hire a better designer.
pompadour at gmail.com
I work cheap.
Narrative is an ugly site.
They have money, they should hire a better designer.
pompadour at gmail.com
I work cheap.
haha! Go Gene! You do design very well. I smiled. Ah.
I like Narrative- some of there stuff is great! I love Brandon Hobson! And Maud Newton’s thing made me all uncomfortable in the best way. I think they can veer to the too conservative, but that is not my problem overall. My prob is– I do not like their business model. I think it is wrong.
I’ve been paid by many a mag and without paying a submission fee. The two don’t go together. At all.
Friendster. Myspace. Hey, Netguide! They were worth millions!!! I could go on, but I can’t. cause I’m drunk. Facebook gets some ad revenue for sure, but 100 billion or whatever crazy amount it is valued? Uh, no. Booms and busts and fake companies and others that make money, and that don’t worry about it -and you know, lots of things! I just think, that is Jenks, who is smart and great and all that, wants to make money doing an online journal- you go! Do it! But making that money from the unsolicited pile is not – in the history of publishing- considered ethical.
And then do you think he was bummed out that he only got 2nd place?
Like I said, this really got me thinking. What if Tobias Wolff and Lorrie Moore and JCO all started entering contests? Gina Ochsner has a book out, has been in the New Yorker, and she won the first person contest. If a contest is open to all writers, where do writers draw the line? Especially if it’s a contest for big bucks? And ya need the dough? Was it wrong for Richard Bausch to enter a contest? What if he were only a finalist, would that be mortifying? What if he’d won first place instead of the very young, new writer chick who did win first place? Would that have been highly suspect?
What if Narrative gave a contest and nobody came?
And then do you think he was bummed out that he only got 2nd place?
Like I said, this really got me thinking. What if Tobias Wolff and Lorrie Moore and JCO all started entering contests? Gina Ochsner has a book out, has been in the New Yorker, and she won the first person contest. If a contest is open to all writers, where do writers draw the line? Especially if it’s a contest for big bucks? And ya need the dough? Was it wrong for Richard Bausch to enter a contest? What if he were only a finalist, would that be mortifying? What if he’d won first place instead of the very young, new writer chick who did win first place? Would that have been highly suspect?
What if Narrative gave a contest and nobody came?
It’s difficult to sell books. It’s even harder to get people to subscribe to magazines. There’s a 1000 publishers vying for ever grant. So sometime ago publishers figured out that they can make money from fools (yes, fools) by charging reading fees and holding contests. Fools who have no money to buy books or subscribe to magazines, yet always have cash for beer, rubbers and contest/reading fees. If these people supported the places they’d like to be published in — there’d be no need for any fees.
On one hand you can say, well, dog-eat world, it’s the new literary business model. And hey, I’ve worked enough conferences and small books fairs to be approached by many many people wanting me to publish them, without any knowledge my press or the kinds of books I publish, let alone consider BUYING one. The only way I’d ever get any financial support from these folks would be to sell them hope — hope that maybe I’d publish them. But let’s be honest, most publishers already know plenty of writers they want to publish — they don’t have to hold contests. And reading fees are even more slippery because all the publisher is agreeing to is “read” your work — they’re not required to publish anyone. They can take ALL of the money and do whatever they like.
I have tons of sympathy for publishers trying to figure out a way to pay the bills. It is a concern of mine as well. And paying writers is super. Dream come true.
But these publishers know damn well that the overwhelming majority of work sent is nothing remotely close to what they’re interested in publishing. They’re making bank on ignorance, laziness and vanity. Yet we call “self-publishing” vanity. It makes no sense whatsoever. It *is* dishonest and it preys on the gullible and deluded — the majority of those who pay these fees. Sorry folks, I used to pay them too, back when I was gullible and deluded.
I’d be more supportive of presses and magazines holding reading periods for those who actually purchase a book or subscribe. Cause at least then the published work is getting out there (and hopefully read). That would at least be a step in the right direction — you know, the purpose of a publisher, to connect readers to the work. Some small publishers have really lost their way.
It’s difficult to sell books. It’s even harder to get people to subscribe to magazines. There’s a 1000 publishers vying for ever grant. So sometime ago publishers figured out that they can make money from fools (yes, fools) by charging reading fees and holding contests. Fools who have no money to buy books or subscribe to magazines, yet always have cash for beer, rubbers and contest/reading fees. If these people supported the places they’d like to be published in — there’d be no need for any fees.
On one hand you can say, well, dog-eat world, it’s the new literary business model. And hey, I’ve worked enough conferences and small books fairs to be approached by many many people wanting me to publish them, without any knowledge my press or the kinds of books I publish, let alone consider BUYING one. The only way I’d ever get any financial support from these folks would be to sell them hope — hope that maybe I’d publish them. But let’s be honest, most publishers already know plenty of writers they want to publish — they don’t have to hold contests. And reading fees are even more slippery because all the publisher is agreeing to is “read” your work — they’re not required to publish anyone. They can take ALL of the money and do whatever they like.
I have tons of sympathy for publishers trying to figure out a way to pay the bills. It is a concern of mine as well. And paying writers is super. Dream come true.
But these publishers know damn well that the overwhelming majority of work sent is nothing remotely close to what they’re interested in publishing. They’re making bank on ignorance, laziness and vanity. Yet we call “self-publishing” vanity. It makes no sense whatsoever. It *is* dishonest and it preys on the gullible and deluded — the majority of those who pay these fees. Sorry folks, I used to pay them too, back when I was gullible and deluded.
I’d be more supportive of presses and magazines holding reading periods for those who actually purchase a book or subscribe. Cause at least then the published work is getting out there (and hopefully read). That would at least be a step in the right direction — you know, the purpose of a publisher, to connect readers to the work. Some small publishers have really lost their way.
okay no offense but your ignorance of how much money it takes to ‘maintain a website’ that fucking immense kind of discredits you.
i mean really? do you think it costs $200 to run a networked system of millions of users?
jesus christ, come on, you don’t have to be a computer genius to realize the scope of what needs to be behind the scenes to run something as massive as facebook.
now everything i have read above by you seems ill thought out. i dunno. i am finicky. whatever.
okay no offense but your ignorance of how much money it takes to ‘maintain a website’ that fucking immense kind of discredits you.
i mean really? do you think it costs $200 to run a networked system of millions of users?
jesus christ, come on, you don’t have to be a computer genius to realize the scope of what needs to be behind the scenes to run something as massive as facebook.
now everything i have read above by you seems ill thought out. i dunno. i am finicky. whatever.
This is a good thread, the kind of shit us literary people should be talking about, especially those non Richard Bausch types who might consider bucking up to submit to an outlet like Narrative, or a contest from a “major” publication, or whatever. I’m with Blake — I just see that they’re charging people to submit, call bullshit, and say, fuck them.
I personally think what they’re doing is lame and more than likely crooked in some kind of vague, inside baseball kind of way (the Bausch thing looks like a gigantic red flag to me). That’s just my opinion, and that’s all I have to work with, so I don’t send them stuff, unsubscribe from their annoying emails, and kind of disregard their whole thing.
Reb’s right about the economics of it. Sadly, more people are probably willing to pay to submit to Narrative than are willing to buck up the cost of two or three beers to buy Hobart or Annalemma or Barrelhouse (where I’m an editor). Only thing for the rest of us to do is say, well, what they’re doing over there doesn’t quite smell right to me, and I don’t think I’m going to be a part of it.
This is a good thread, the kind of shit us literary people should be talking about, especially those non Richard Bausch types who might consider bucking up to submit to an outlet like Narrative, or a contest from a “major” publication, or whatever. I’m with Blake — I just see that they’re charging people to submit, call bullshit, and say, fuck them.
I personally think what they’re doing is lame and more than likely crooked in some kind of vague, inside baseball kind of way (the Bausch thing looks like a gigantic red flag to me). That’s just my opinion, and that’s all I have to work with, so I don’t send them stuff, unsubscribe from their annoying emails, and kind of disregard their whole thing.
Reb’s right about the economics of it. Sadly, more people are probably willing to pay to submit to Narrative than are willing to buck up the cost of two or three beers to buy Hobart or Annalemma or Barrelhouse (where I’m an editor). Only thing for the rest of us to do is say, well, what they’re doing over there doesn’t quite smell right to me, and I don’t think I’m going to be a part of it.
I don’t really care about the contests or the money, or the credibility of Narrative, but why the fuck do they put the pictures of all those writers on their homepage. It’s mastabutory. It looks like a dating site. And then they put the little excerpts beneath their faces. Ick. It’s so smug an odd. Like elbow patches. I want to photoshop bubblepipes into all their mouths. Christ, I bet they all write about cancer.
I don’t really care about the contests or the money, or the credibility of Narrative, but why the fuck do they put the pictures of all those writers on their homepage. It’s mastabutory. It looks like a dating site. And then they put the little excerpts beneath their faces. Ick. It’s so smug an odd. Like elbow patches. I want to photoshop bubblepipes into all their mouths. Christ, I bet they all write about cancer.
I will stay subscribed until after I read you story.
I will stay subscribed until after I read you story.
Literary fiction is a self-contained, self-consuming entity. It’s not much of a stretch to say that mainly writers read literary fiction. They are its consumers. Poetry is more ‘out there’ in that non-writers will read poetry. Not so with short fiction (in all its lengths).
So writers already subsidize lit fiction. Well-heeled venues like Virginia Quarterly Review or Ploughshares are subsidized by universities who are subsidized by writer wannabes in their creative writing programs. I’d be curious to know from Dave how much of Barrelhouse’s overhead comes from subscriptions/purchases and how much comes out of his own pocket. And how much do they pay their contributors? Because that’s another way, some guy or chick digging into their own pockets and putting out a lit magazine as a labor of love, (and it’s gonna be a writer doing that). And contributors donate their work to get it published. And no one’s getting fat except Mama Cass. There’s something pure and beautiful and art-for-art’s sake about it, as long as you have a good day job. At least POD is making it easier to put out a print product. When Night Train was putting out a print product using traditional publishing methods, it went belly up because of the expense that the rabid fund-raising and pleas for donations and subscriptions couldn’t meet.
So Narrative is trying a new thing. It’s paying writers well, throwing out a lot of money with their contests and prizes and asking the lit community to throw into the pot by submission fees. And that they’ve got a story coming out in the next BASS is kind of a big deal and a testament to some kind of success because when I first started writing in 2000, online publishing was considered bogus. Crap. Only print mattered.
Here’s where I think Narrative could improve. I think for $20 they could guarantee a fast turnaround, 2 weeks max, and no form rejections. A personal note with a critique as to why this story didn’t work for them, some constructive criticism. That might be worth $20. I fucking hate waiting. I fucking hate waiting 6 months for a form rejection, even for free.
Maybe Narrative does prey on the gullible and deluded. Speaking for myself, however, I’ve ponied up a total of $40 to Narrative to enter two contests. So far Narrative has paid me a total of $550. So if I’m gullible and deluded, I’m up $510 for it. And as a nod to the generosity of Tom Jenks, he published a story of mine in 2004 that I’d sent to him as a writing sample when I was inquiring about his editorial services. if he were a conniving avaricious whore dog he could’ve said, yeah, I’ll charge you $XXX to edit your work and get it into shape . Instead he asked to publish it, and this after he knew I was bad-mouthing Narrative vociferously for their reading fees on a huge writer’s site. He let me know that he knew I was dissing them, and still published me, and sent me a check for $350. Because he liked my story.
Anyway . . .
Literary fiction is a self-contained, self-consuming entity. It’s not much of a stretch to say that mainly writers read literary fiction. They are its consumers. Poetry is more ‘out there’ in that non-writers will read poetry. Not so with short fiction (in all its lengths).
So writers already subsidize lit fiction. Well-heeled venues like Virginia Quarterly Review or Ploughshares are subsidized by universities who are subsidized by writer wannabes in their creative writing programs. I’d be curious to know from Dave how much of Barrelhouse’s overhead comes from subscriptions/purchases and how much comes out of his own pocket. And how much do they pay their contributors? Because that’s another way, some guy or chick digging into their own pockets and putting out a lit magazine as a labor of love, (and it’s gonna be a writer doing that). And contributors donate their work to get it published. And no one’s getting fat except Mama Cass. There’s something pure and beautiful and art-for-art’s sake about it, as long as you have a good day job. At least POD is making it easier to put out a print product. When Night Train was putting out a print product using traditional publishing methods, it went belly up because of the expense that the rabid fund-raising and pleas for donations and subscriptions couldn’t meet.
So Narrative is trying a new thing. It’s paying writers well, throwing out a lot of money with their contests and prizes and asking the lit community to throw into the pot by submission fees. And that they’ve got a story coming out in the next BASS is kind of a big deal and a testament to some kind of success because when I first started writing in 2000, online publishing was considered bogus. Crap. Only print mattered.
Here’s where I think Narrative could improve. I think for $20 they could guarantee a fast turnaround, 2 weeks max, and no form rejections. A personal note with a critique as to why this story didn’t work for them, some constructive criticism. That might be worth $20. I fucking hate waiting. I fucking hate waiting 6 months for a form rejection, even for free.
Maybe Narrative does prey on the gullible and deluded. Speaking for myself, however, I’ve ponied up a total of $40 to Narrative to enter two contests. So far Narrative has paid me a total of $550. So if I’m gullible and deluded, I’m up $510 for it. And as a nod to the generosity of Tom Jenks, he published a story of mine in 2004 that I’d sent to him as a writing sample when I was inquiring about his editorial services. if he were a conniving avaricious whore dog he could’ve said, yeah, I’ll charge you $XXX to edit your work and get it into shape . Instead he asked to publish it, and this after he knew I was bad-mouthing Narrative vociferously for their reading fees on a huge writer’s site. He let me know that he knew I was dissing them, and still published me, and sent me a check for $350. Because he liked my story.
Anyway . . .
Yeah Jereme, I have no idea what it takes to fund Facebook or MySpace or Narrative Magazine for that matter. You could say FB takes $50,000 a year to fund and I’d say wow, that’s a lotta dough, or $10,000 and I’d say wow, that’s a lot of dough. I’m really talking about literary issues and submission fees.
Yeah Jereme, I have no idea what it takes to fund Facebook or MySpace or Narrative Magazine for that matter. You could say FB takes $50,000 a year to fund and I’d say wow, that’s a lotta dough, or $10,000 and I’d say wow, that’s a lot of dough. I’m really talking about literary issues and submission fees.
Looking at the writer pictures makes you think of masturbation? Ew is right. You got issues
and need some tissues.
Looking at the writer pictures makes you think of masturbation? Ew is right. You got issues
and need some tissues.
Short story contests are merit-based. Richard Bausch is an incredibly good writer.
Short story contests are merit-based. Richard Bausch is an incredibly good writer.
alicia. i like you a lot. you say smart things.
alicia. i like you a lot. you say smart things.
Just a couple things: there are very few non-poem-writers who read poetry. Less poem readers in the world, than literary fiction readers. That’s why the world of poetry publishing is rife with contests and readings fees. If a poetry book sells 300 copies in the first year, it’s a MASSIVE success. If your short story collection sold 300 copies, nobody would ever publish you again. The most I was ever paid for a poem was $75 — and that was for Best American Poetry published by RANDOM HOUSE. Narrative hasn’t invented anything new — they’re borrowing an idea from the bowels of poetryland.
Also, people do win the lottery. I don’t mean to imply that it was only luck and not merit that your story was selected. I’ll bet it’s quite good and deserves to be published. This time, this worked out for you. But your payment was supplied not by those shelling out money because they wanted to read it or any literature — but by people paying for the hope that their THEIR WORK would get published. Now a good portion of these people read very little and one might say well they deserve to lose their money — and maybe they do.
But that’s the model these types of publications are working with — they aren’t selling literature, they’re selling hope. Some people are perfectly OK with that. It sounds like you are too.
I don’t know any of the folks at Narrative. They may be wonderful people. I wouldn’t know. I reserve my disdain for the model — a model that has been in play for quite a while in the poetry world — and as far as I’m concerned partially responsible for the shrinking readership. Short term benefits — long term it’s just bad for literature all around.
Just a couple things: there are very few non-poem-writers who read poetry. Less poem readers in the world, than literary fiction readers. That’s why the world of poetry publishing is rife with contests and readings fees. If a poetry book sells 300 copies in the first year, it’s a MASSIVE success. If your short story collection sold 300 copies, nobody would ever publish you again. The most I was ever paid for a poem was $75 — and that was for Best American Poetry published by RANDOM HOUSE. Narrative hasn’t invented anything new — they’re borrowing an idea from the bowels of poetryland.
Also, people do win the lottery. I don’t mean to imply that it was only luck and not merit that your story was selected. I’ll bet it’s quite good and deserves to be published. This time, this worked out for you. But your payment was supplied not by those shelling out money because they wanted to read it or any literature — but by people paying for the hope that their THEIR WORK would get published. Now a good portion of these people read very little and one might say well they deserve to lose their money — and maybe they do.
But that’s the model these types of publications are working with — they aren’t selling literature, they’re selling hope. Some people are perfectly OK with that. It sounds like you are too.
I don’t know any of the folks at Narrative. They may be wonderful people. I wouldn’t know. I reserve my disdain for the model — a model that has been in play for quite a while in the poetry world — and as far as I’m concerned partially responsible for the shrinking readership. Short term benefits — long term it’s just bad for literature all around.
and you reb.
and you reb.
I think you’re right, Alicia, that it’s one model for how this can work.It’s just not a model that I think much of, and not one that I choose to support by floating a $20 submission over there, especially if I’ll be competing with folks who are both Richard Bausch and on the staff of the magazine.
The great thing about having so many outlets is that writers can weigh this stuff on their own and decide how much a submission might be worth, where to submit, what their chances are, how legit an outlet seems, etc. For me, Narrative just doesn’t look like it’s worth it, especially given all the other options and all the issues people have raised in this thread. But that’s just me.
Oh, and you’re right: Barrelhouse is funded by all of the above. Mostly through our own pockets, although we also have some foundation support now that we’re a nonprofit. A small percentage comes in from subscriptions and purchases, and we wish it was more. We’ve had contests in the past where we asked for an entry fee, but I don’t know that we’ll do that again. I kind of doubt it — it felt kind of funny, to be honest, not quite right.
And congratulations, seriously, on your success at Narrative.
I think you’re right, Alicia, that it’s one model for how this can work.It’s just not a model that I think much of, and not one that I choose to support by floating a $20 submission over there, especially if I’ll be competing with folks who are both Richard Bausch and on the staff of the magazine.
The great thing about having so many outlets is that writers can weigh this stuff on their own and decide how much a submission might be worth, where to submit, what their chances are, how legit an outlet seems, etc. For me, Narrative just doesn’t look like it’s worth it, especially given all the other options and all the issues people have raised in this thread. But that’s just me.
Oh, and you’re right: Barrelhouse is funded by all of the above. Mostly through our own pockets, although we also have some foundation support now that we’re a nonprofit. A small percentage comes in from subscriptions and purchases, and we wish it was more. We’ve had contests in the past where we asked for an entry fee, but I don’t know that we’ll do that again. I kind of doubt it — it felt kind of funny, to be honest, not quite right.
And congratulations, seriously, on your success at Narrative.
In my experience, more non-writers read poetry than short literary fiction. I don’t know anyone who is a non-writer who reads literary short stories (except for my non-writing friends who are compelled to read mine). So that’s interesting that you say the opposite. But I really don’t know shit about the poetry world.
long term it’s just bad for literature all around
One way to look at it, I guess. But I see Narrative as an advocate of literary fiction, promoting it with all its might. Thanks for saying my publication there wasn’t a crapshoot that I won. Er, Lotto. No thanks for telling me they paid me with blood money. False hope money. People who “read very little” yet dish out money in hopes they get published, well, I agree, if you don’t read short fiction but pay money to submit it, Chumpsville, USA.
Anyway, we aren’t going to agree
so let’s leave it alone,
cuz we can’t see eye to eye.
There ain’t no good guy.
There ain’t no bad guy.
There’s only you and me
and we just disagree.
Dave Mason said that.
Now me.
Look!
I’m writing poetry!
I’m Narratived out.
In my experience, more non-writers read poetry than short literary fiction. I don’t know anyone who is a non-writer who reads literary short stories (except for my non-writing friends who are compelled to read mine). So that’s interesting that you say the opposite. But I really don’t know shit about the poetry world.
long term it’s just bad for literature all around
One way to look at it, I guess. But I see Narrative as an advocate of literary fiction, promoting it with all its might. Thanks for saying my publication there wasn’t a crapshoot that I won. Er, Lotto. No thanks for telling me they paid me with blood money. False hope money. People who “read very little” yet dish out money in hopes they get published, well, I agree, if you don’t read short fiction but pay money to submit it, Chumpsville, USA.
Anyway, we aren’t going to agree
so let’s leave it alone,
cuz we can’t see eye to eye.
There ain’t no good guy.
There ain’t no bad guy.
There’s only you and me
and we just disagree.
Dave Mason said that.
Now me.
Look!
I’m writing poetry!
I’m Narratived out.
Thanks Dave, for your congrats and thoughts. I saw BH interviewed Tod Goldberg. He was my very first writing teacher, and I was in the very first class he ever taught. We’re like bosom buddies. Now he’s head mucky at UC Riverside and I’m flying in my taxi, getting stoned. Or something.
I’m gonna order me a Barrelhouse right now, so there.
Smooooooooch, and some tongue!
Thanks Dave, for your congrats and thoughts. I saw BH interviewed Tod Goldberg. He was my very first writing teacher, and I was in the very first class he ever taught. We’re like bosom buddies. Now he’s head mucky at UC Riverside and I’m flying in my taxi, getting stoned. Or something.
I’m gonna order me a Barrelhouse right now, so there.
Smooooooooch, and some tongue!
yes, alicia, that is exactly what i meant.
yes, alicia, that is exactly what i meant.
it’s actually not a new thing. it’s a rip off of glimmertrain’s business model.
it’s actually not a new thing. it’s a rip off of glimmertrain’s business model.
[i]Poetry is more ‘out there’ in that non-writers will read poetry. Not so with short fiction (in all its lengths).[/i]
No offense but i’m pretty postive you have this completely backwards. I’ve never even heard of a non-writer who reads poetry. Short-fiction and novels sell decently.
[i]Poetry is more ‘out there’ in that non-writers will read poetry. Not so with short fiction (in all its lengths).[/i]
No offense but i’m pretty postive you have this completely backwards. I’ve never even heard of a non-writer who reads poetry. Short-fiction and novels sell decently.
You should try to search for the cause of this problem but not the method to due with it at this instant.
You should try to search for the cause of this problem but not the method to due with it at this instant.
More and more problems would come to you if you don
More and more problems would come to you if you don
Frankly, Alicia, I think you doth protest over much. It’s like reading authors going apeshit over angry Amazon reviews. Defending the reading fees in one post? Yeah, I get it. Many posts later? Get over it.
Frankly, Alicia, I think you doth protest over much. It’s like reading authors going apeshit over angry Amazon reviews. Defending the reading fees in one post? Yeah, I get it. Many posts later? Get over it.
Probably quite late in the day for this post. It is interesting that a post discussing the merits of paying writers for their work, happily uses an image that has neither been paid for, nor permission for use sought.
Not a complaint, just a comment.