August 10th, 2010 / 1:11 pm
Random

PW Under-rated writers list

In response to the Huffington Post’s over-rated writers list, PW makes an under-rated writers list. On Jesus Angel Garcia‘s FB page, there’s a discussion going on exactly what makes a writer under-rated. I mean, come on: Tao Lin is on the list, along with the likes of Deborah Eisenberg (a Guggenheim fellowship, three O’Henry’s, a MacArthur, etc.), Mary Gaitskill (been in Nyer, Harper’s, Esquire, etc), and Donald Antrim (finalist for a PEN/Faulker, frequent NYer contributor, etc), all writers I would say have received ample attention. If this is what it takes to be under-rated, what does someone have to do to be over-rated? (Don’t answer that. I already know the answer: be Jonathan Safron Foer or Junot Diaz.) To be fair, there are also some truly under-rated writers on their list. What do you think?

157 Comments

  1. mark leidner

      would love to see a list of 100 writers who are overrated in their own eyes

  2. Lincoln

      I think you could call Antrim underrated. He rules, but isn’t that widely read or known (whether or not he was a finalist once) even amongst people int he know. Eisenberg gets mad press these days though.

  3. marshall

      Is there a list of just “rated” writers?

  4. mike young

      the 100 most serrated writers: most useful writers for cutting bread

  5. marshall

      Ha. How about the 100 most perforated writers…

  6. Blake Butler

  7. Roxane Gay

      My mild frustration with this sort of list, the same frustration I harbor over something like the New Yorker’s 20 to watch out for and similar lists, is that, as you allude to here–we know who these people are. They are pretty damn successful. I wish these lists highlighted the writers who are on the verge of something.

  8. Marc

      The Million Writers Award is a good first step. %Pr

  9. Lily Hoang

      thank you, blake.

  10. L.

      That award is way too gamed.

  11. Roxane Gay

      This is true but I would still like to see some of these bigger, more visible entities doing more to highlight the work of writers on the verge.

  12. marshall

      It seems like it’s hard to make a “satisfying” list of not-yet-successful writers because you want to pick writers that are successful/famous enough to warrant their placement, but you don’t want to pick writers that are too successful/famous as to be disqualified. Most publications probably err on the side of “too successful/famous” because lists comprised of those writers will generate more interest and discussion than lists of writers that no one’s heard of. It’s sort of a catch-22 or something. If there is enough of a positive consensus on a writer’s value that they are a potential candidate for a list of “up-and-coming writers,” then they are already sort of ineligible to appear on such a list.

  13. marshall

      “Potential candidate” is redundant, maybe.

  14. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      The more one sees a name the more it “psychologically” becomes overrated, even if he/she has not read material by that name. This is one of the problems with ratings, as they are ENTIRELY subjective, and not subjective in the blasé sense of the word but subjective in that you either want to eat more Subway or you never want to eat it again; the truth is that you see it all the time, in print, in people’s hands, in mouths. I say this because quite often I hear people saying that something is overrated when that something which is being “rated” has not even been seen/heard/read. This raises questions like “How can one rate something if they leave their seat early,” which isn’t necessarily a requirement for rating, as something might easily be horrible from the get-go, yet it raises the important question “who does the rating and to what extent did they delve?” For years I said that Tony! Toni! Tone! (also Genesis and T-Rex) was overrated but then I listened to them in my little secret den, feeling as though they were underrated because I was alone with their music and content.

      If we were to trace where these ratings are coming from I think that we’d find that there is no foundation for them and that there never has been. It’s overrated to say that something is overrated and often, when one proclaims that something is underrated, they usually have loved keeping it a secret and have adored enjoying it as “something which lives without a rating;” that is, until someone says that it sucks; i.e. Tony … Additionally, the antithesis of overrated is not so much underrated, as there are many writers who are spoken of as overrated because difficult or underrated as a result of being difficult, vice versa (also, insert any highfalutin adjective in place of difficult here).

      Instead of ratings it might be better to note how many writers simply are NOT TALKED about( as in as a reader one should actively explore somewhere beyond their ready confines or the promulgations of the “overrated;” find what is, as Roxane rightfully notes, something on the verge of something) which is a much more serious issue–especially if their work is not terrible–and I don’t mean not talked about specifically because their work is lacking something of the family punch (that work should remain untalked about?) but because dialogue in relation to the work is not summoned/labored at/attempted but quite noticeably stifled by the interrupting combatants of the rating system.

  15. Steven Augustine

      But “under-rated” is not the same as “under-publicized” so I wonder if your quibble is off?

  16. Khakjaan Wessington

      Ratings are for editors.

      And kicks are for Trids.

  17. darby

      who are examples of “writers on the verge” ?

  18. Khakjaan Wessington

      Oh, here’s an underrated writer: John Dolan. He’s the reductio ad absurdum that you DO need to eat shit, even if you have talent–lest you go in the trash.

  19. Stu

      Cheryl Strayed is so under-rated, she made the short list twice!

  20. marshall

      I don’t think I understand this “underrated”/”overrated” stuff… Is saying a writer is “underrated” or “overrated” the same thing as disagreeing with the “rating” (what is that exactly?) given to the writer by Other People (who exactly?)?

  21. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Steven,

      You can add anything to under and make this discussion about being off or note it as “quibble,” which only becomes more quibble, so if you want to get at the root of the discussion have you something to discuss?

  22. Roxane Gay

      Good question, Darby. I don’t have anyone specific in mind. I was responding primarily to having heard of everyone on the list. I do think there are many, many indie writers though–Amber Noelle Sparks, xTx, Matt Bell (who has probably cracked the “verge” threshold already), a very new writer named Chelsea Laine Wells, Gregory Sherl, Lori Ostlund–and I could go on and on, but those are the writers off the top of my head, who I think are on the verge of bigger things. I’d like to see this lists branching beyond mainstream publishing. As I noted, my frustration is mild. These lists are interesting. They could be more.

  23. stephen

      there is nothing to understand

  24. Steven Augustine

      Tyler: was it the whole bottle? Should we dial 911 for you…?

  25. stephen

      which is a cryptic way of saying, there is no logic to these things, it’s completely subjective, it’s entirely nothing. salinger said when asked the writers one loves, one should say the names in a loud voice and leave it at that. meaning, possibly, that if you justify, rationalize, or put labels on the qualities of the writers or why you like the writers, you’re inviting someone else to impose their subjectivity on your subjectivity, or, if you’re real lucky, they’ll pretend their subjectivity is objective or ‘better’ than your subjectivity/any subjectivity in known space and time (as the case may be).

  26. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Steven, it was two bottles and they refuse to come again.

  27. Brendan Connell

      Under-rated would mean that people say your writing is not good, but in fact it is. Or at least it is better than people say. The only under-rated writer I know of is Lytton.

  28. stephen

      it’s also likely completely sociopolitical and tied to the individual’s current emotional/financial/career situation at the time + ‘how you were raised’/various influences/personality quirks.

  29. Steven Augustine

      Tyler: I get it: you thought I was responding to *you* because my comment was under yours… but I wasn’t. My point was aimed at the OP and it meant that a writer such as, eg, Paul Theroux, is very well- publicized and “successful” yet may still be “underrated” in that his work may not be considered as “serious” as the work of, say, Borges

  30. Khakjaan Wessington

      Well, which speech community are we talking about? What types of pubs & people talk about ratings? Editors & writers. Well both those parties have pretty strong pull with the reading public, so even if we can’t get an exact measurement, I still think this can be somewhat quantified.

      We could measure under/overratedness by something like this:

      Author’s readership/Mentions of author & total audience for those mentions = rough rating.

      This only calculates reputation of mentions indirectly, as a tastemaker’s mention will undoubtedly increase the number of subsequent mentions.

      The reason this type of question is tricky, is because many people think it’s answering what the reading public’s opinion is; while it’s really answering what editors & writers think about that writer.

  31. Khakjaan Wessington

      False.

  32. magick mike

      tyler you will notice that responses to comments are indented directly below the original post. understanding this will make the world of the internet easier to swallow

  33. darby

      oh ok. that would be an interesting list. maybe even something that gets updated monthly or something. i dont know who or what entity would maintain it though.

  34. MFBomb

      Two thoughts:

      1) Why do I feel like people are always trying to shove Tao Lin down my throat? I wonder if people would throw his name around so often if he were named Bob White. Even Tao seems to get off on commodifying his name.

      2) Why are Americans so obsessed with lists? Everything has to be compiled into a list. You can’t turn on the TV now without seeing shows like, “The Top 10 pass catching tackle eligible offensive linemen of all-time.”

  35. Roxane Gay

      I like the idea of a list that’s regularly updated, of writers to look out for. Indeed, who would maintain it, though. It’s something to think about.

  36. jereme

      why do you need a list to find writers you enjoy?

  37. mike young

      the most saturated writers: writers most full of water

  38. marshall

      10 Best Fascist Dictators

  39. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Steven, I did think that you were responding to me so I believe that my quick and defensive response has no merit and thus my apologies for the misdirection. Thank you for clarifying and, additionally, I now understand and quite honestly agree about ratings in terms of sincerity, or at least that one can be well-publicized yet underrated because they may be compared to, or forever beneath, someone considered of the “first rate.”

  40. Roxane Gay

      Because, Jereme, we can’t know everything and read everything and I personally love having writers I’m not familiar with brought to my attention. It’s not about legitimacy. It’s about exposure.

  41. Steven Augustine

      Top Ten List of Underrated List-Makers

  42. Steven Augustine

      A kerfuffle averted

  43. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Hey Mike, great to know that my slip up is allowing you a little extra complacency this afternoon. It’s quite wonderful to get a tutorial such as this, especially on the internet.

  44. jereme

      woah, where did legitimacy fall in here. maybe i missed some part of the thread regarding it. i’m not saying shit about legit not legit.

      farthest thing from anything i care about.

      i was just wondering why you desired and needed a list. lists are political. you aren’t going to get anything other than an agenda.

      why not just learn on your own?

      an independent thinker.

  45. Roxane Gay

      The point I was making is that I don’t need the lists, I like them in terms of learning about a broader range of writers than the ones I am regularly exposed to. I respect your stance on independence but I think, sometimes, you sacrifice the benefits of common knowledge and collaboration at the altar of independence. Drawing from the opinions of others doesn’t have to compromise independence.

  46. jereme

      i guess i don’t find any usefulness in the list.

      a person will still read the books/writers to decide if they like the writing or not. the list isn’t doing anything other than exposure.

      why are you waiting for exposure to find you? why be so lazy in the pursuit for truth?

      “truth” being the beginning/ending of a something.

  47. Roxane Gay

      I guess I’d just say, what does truth have to do with it? Reading recommendations aren’t a quest for something grandiose. I find new writers all the time but I don’t mind hearing recommendations either. It has nothing to do with laziness or philosophical musings on the truth. Are you arguing to argue or are you serious here?

  48. jereme

      i am not arguing at all. i am trying to figure out your viewpoint.

      this is how i do it.

      i question myself a lot more aggressively in my mind.

      so, okay, yeah i wrote the above before you responded. read your response and figured out we read for different reasons.

      why do you read?

      i do agree i am losing something by not succumbing to the herd.

      but not much.

      my cure for this is to seek out people of great intellect, people i can learn from.

      so far i have found blake butler and sam pink. i value their opinion more than any list.

      i would probably put jimmy chen on the list of thinkers also. i need to name an animal after him and make it official.

  49. Lily Hoang

      1. nabokov. your turn.

  50. Lily Hoang

      i changed my mind and decided to add: 2. perec.

  51. Steven Augustine

      2. Whitman

  52. Steven Augustine

      4. Wallechinsky

  53. Roxane Gay

      Using a word like herd is so… argh. This has nothing to do with succumbing and I don’t know that I could ever get you to see my perspective.

      I read for lots of different reasons. I read for a living, basically. I enjoy it. I love learning. I love being challenged. I love finding things to complain about. And on.

  54. mark leidner

      would love to see a list of 100 writers who are overrated in their own eyes

  55. Adam

      5. Alexander Theroux

  56. jereme

      i can use the word majority instead of herd if it makes you feel less agitated at me.

      i can see the value in any point of view, but it will take effort.

      so what i have gathered is you like to read because it is a fun, challenging way to learn.

      but you are reactionary, you are lazy in your search for fun learning. you want lists to tell you what to read.

      i think a lot of people think this way.

  57. Roxane Gay

      Jereme, that’s a ridiculous characterization of my reading habits. Now, I’m going to be reactionary and step aside because I have to work and I just want to type profanities.

  58. Lincoln

      I think you could call Antrim underrated. He rules, but isn’t that widely read or known (whether or not he was a finalist once) even amongst people int he know. Eisenberg gets mad press these days though.

  59. Guest

      Is there a list of just “rated” writers?

  60. jereme

      this is exactly why i try not to communicate with people.

      i didn’t mean to evoke negative emotions.

      sorry.

  61. Steven Augustine

      Good one!

  62. Mike Young

      the 100 most serrated writers: most useful writers for cutting bread

  63. Roxane Gay

      I’m not mad, I’m frustrated but not in a way that makes me feel ill will. I really am working.

  64. Guest

      Ha. How about the 100 most perforated writers…

  65. Blake Butler

  66. Roxane Gay

      My mild frustration with this sort of list, the same frustration I harbor over something like the New Yorker’s 20 to watch out for and similar lists, is that, as you allude to here–we know who these people are. They are pretty damn successful. I wish these lists highlighted the writers who are on the verge of something.

  67. Marc

      The Million Writers Award is a good first step. %Pr

  68. darby

      jeereme, i kind of agree with your general sense i think, like relying on “big” lists like the NYT best-seller list, but i can’t just categorically dismiss all lists. there is a reading list that lamination colony did a few issues back that was incredibly useful to me as a means of digging deeper into a kind of literature that would be difficult to “find” otherwise, absent an MFA or something. I copied that list and put it in a spreadsheet and still refer to it all the time. lists are fine as long there is an understanding as to what the list really is and there is no confusion as to what can be concluded from it, which is often very little.

  69. lily hoang

      thank you, blake.

  70. L.

      That award is way too gamed.

  71. Roxane Gay

      This is true but I would still like to see some of these bigger, more visible entities doing more to highlight the work of writers on the verge.

  72. jereme

      i am not saying disregard all lists,

      i think if a person is in pursuit of something, they will seek out a list, they will seek out the truth of that list and continue on.

      but…

      being handed a magazine with a list in it is pure influence, pure politicking.

      i am not necessarily questioning the conclusion, but the means to the conclusion.

      disregard all lists but your own.

  73. jereme

      i really liked the food lists from motorman.

  74. Matthew Simmons

      Marie Anna Langer and Adam Liszt, greatest Liszt-makers of all time.

  75. Guest

      It seems like it’s hard to make a “satisfying” list of not-yet-successful writers because you want to pick writers that are successful/famous enough to warrant their placement, but you don’t want to pick writers that are too successful/famous as to be disqualified. Most publications probably err on the side of “too successful/famous” because lists comprised of those writers will generate more interest and discussion than lists of writers that no one’s heard of. It’s sort of a catch-22 or something. If there is enough of a positive consensus on a writer’s value that they are a potential candidate for a list of “up-and-coming writers,” then they are already sort of ineligible to appear on such a list.

  76. Guest

      “Potential candidate” is redundant, maybe.

  77. Sean

      Working in a U that ‘loves’ (Tao Lin quotes, respect [cough]) rankings and awards I wonder if academia drives many of these lists. I mean what is the necessity to rank, of all people, writers?

      It is developmentally Ok to rank everything at age 7: Dad, who is better Brett Favre or sweet butter? Dad, what goes faster, Usain Bolt or your lawnmower?

      Etc

      But after that, why?

      Fuck ratings. Can you get your book READ or NOT?

      [I’m a little into a rich red wine tonight so enjoying Caps–sorry. Still my inquiry is valid]

  78. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      The more one sees a name the more it “psychologically” becomes overrated, even if he/she has not read material by that name. This is one of the problems with ratings, as they are ENTIRELY subjective, and not subjective in the blasé sense of the word but subjective in that you either want to eat more Subway or you never want to eat it again; the truth is that you see it all the time, in print, in people’s hands, in mouths. I say this because quite often I hear people saying that something is overrated when that something which is being “rated” has not even been seen/heard/read. This raises questions like “How can one rate something if they leave their seat early,” which isn’t necessarily a requirement for rating, as something might easily be horrible from the get-go, yet it raises the important question “who does the rating and to what extent did they delve?” For years I said that Tony! Toni! Tone! (also Genesis and T-Rex) was overrated but then I listened to them in my little secret den, feeling as though they were underrated because I was alone with their music and content.

      If we were to trace where these ratings are coming from I think that we’d find that there is no foundation for them and that there never has been. It’s overrated to say that something is overrated and often, when one proclaims that something is underrated, they usually have loved keeping it a secret and have adored enjoying it as “something which lives without a rating;” that is, until someone says that it sucks; i.e. Tony … Additionally, the antithesis of overrated is not so much underrated, as there are many writers who are spoken of as overrated because difficult or underrated as a result of being difficult, vice versa (also, insert any highfalutin adjective in place of difficult here).

      Instead of ratings it might be better to note how many writers simply are NOT TALKED about( as in as a reader one should actively explore somewhere beyond their ready confines or the promulgations of the “overrated;” find what is, as Roxane rightfully notes, something on the verge of something) which is a much more serious issue–especially if their work is not terrible–and I don’t mean not talked about specifically because their work is lacking something of the family punch (that work should remain untalked about?) but because dialogue in relation to the work is not summoned/labored at/attempted but quite noticeably stifled by the interrupting combatants of the rating system.

  79. STaugustine

      But “under-rated” is not the same as “under-publicized” so I wonder if your quibble is off?

  80. Khakjaan Wessington

      Ratings are for editors.

      And kicks are for Trids.

  81. darby

      who are examples of “writers on the verge” ?

  82. Brendan Connell

      Baron Corvo

  83. Khakjaan Wessington

      Oh, here’s an underrated writer: John Dolan. He’s the reductio ad absurdum that you DO need to eat shit, even if you have talent–lest you go in the trash.

  84. Stu

      Cheryl Strayed is so under-rated, she made the short list twice!

  85. Guest

      I don’t think I understand this “underrated”/”overrated” stuff… Is saying a writer is “underrated” or “overrated” the same thing as disagreeing with the “rating” (what is that exactly?) given to the writer by Other People (who exactly?)?

  86. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Steven,

      You can add anything to under and make this discussion about being off or note it as “quibble,” which only becomes more quibble, so if you want to get at the root of the discussion have you something to discuss?

  87. Roxane Gay

      Good question, Darby. I don’t have anyone specific in mind. I was responding primarily to having heard of everyone on the list. I do think there are many, many indie writers though–Amber Noelle Sparks, xTx, Matt Bell (who has probably cracked the “verge” threshold already), a very new writer named Chelsea Laine Wells, Gregory Sherl, Lori Ostlund–and I could go on and on, but those are the writers off the top of my head, who I think are on the verge of bigger things. I’d like to see this lists branching beyond mainstream publishing. As I noted, my frustration is mild. These lists are interesting. They could be more.

  88. stephen

      there is nothing to understand

  89. STaugustine

      Tyler: was it the whole bottle? Should we dial 911 for you…?

  90. MFBomb

      But America’s listing obsession transcends academia. We’re drowning in lists. Every other show on VH1 or ESPN is built around a list. It’s sort of creepy, actually.

  91. stephen

      which is a cryptic way of saying, there is no logic to these things, it’s completely subjective, it’s entirely nothing. salinger said when asked the writers one loves, one should say the names in a loud voice and leave it at that. meaning, possibly, that if you justify, rationalize, or put labels on the qualities of the writers or why you like the writers, you’re inviting someone else to impose their subjectivity on your subjectivity, or, if you’re real lucky, they’ll pretend their subjectivity is objective or ‘better’ than your subjectivity/any subjectivity in known space and time (as the case may be).

  92. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Steven, it was two bottles and they refuse to come again.

  93. Brendan Connell

      Under-rated would mean that people say your writing is not good, but in fact it is. Or at least it is better than people say. The only under-rated writer I know of is Lytton.

  94. stephen

      it’s also likely completely sociopolitical and tied to the individual’s current emotional/financial/career situation at the time + ‘how you were raised’/various influences/personality quirks.

  95. STaugustine

      Tyler: I get it: you thought I was responding to *you* because my comment was under yours… but I wasn’t. My point was aimed at the OP and it meant that a writer such as, eg, Paul Theroux, is very well- publicized and “successful” yet may still be “underrated” in that his work may not be considered as “serious” as the work of, say, Borges

  96. marshall

      Flavor Flav asks, “Who gives a fuck about a goddamn Grammy?”

  97. shane

      Ryan Call:

      Please write about the fact that Ted Genoways is likely gone from VQR. A horrible situation there that transcends “writing.”

  98. Khakjaan Wessington

      Well, which speech community are we talking about? What types of pubs & people talk about ratings? Editors & writers. Well both those parties have pretty strong pull with the reading public, so even if we can’t get an exact measurement, I still think this can be somewhat quantified.

      We could measure under/overratedness by something like this:

      Author’s readership/Mentions of author & total audience for those mentions = rough rating.

      This only calculates reputation of mentions indirectly, as a tastemaker’s mention will undoubtedly increase the number of subsequent mentions.

      The reason this type of question is tricky, is because many people think it’s answering what the reading public’s opinion is; while it’s really answering what editors & writers think about that writer.

  99. Khakjaan Wessington

      False.

  100. MFBomb

      Shane….care to elaborate….I’m curious if you have some dirt to spill……

  101. magick mike

      tyler you will notice that responses to comments are indented directly below the original post. understanding this will make the world of the internet easier to swallow

  102. Lincoln
  103. MFBomb

      Lincoln, thanks. BTW, great write-up on the overrated overrated lists thingy. I shared on Facebook.

  104. Lincoln

      No prob and thanks!

      The whole VQR situation is sad. Hard to know how to comment so far removed from the situation.

  105. Ryan Call

      shane, certainly email us if you have any information. others can also read, in addition to the cville news pieces to which lincoln linked above, the comments section of this post at Waldo Jaquith’s blog for more words on the matter (including those of the sister of the deceased morrissey).

  106. darby

      oh ok. that would be an interesting list. maybe even something that gets updated monthly or something. i dont know who or what entity would maintain it though.

  107. Guest

      Two thoughts:

      1) Why do I feel like people are always trying to shove Tao Lin down my throat? I wonder if people would throw his name around so often if he were named Bob White. Even Tao seems to get off on commodifying his name.

      2) Why are Americans so obsessed with lists? Everything has to be compiled into a list. You can’t turn on the TV now without seeing shows like, “The Top 10 pass catching tackle eligible offensive linemen of all-time.”

  108. Roxane Gay

      I like the idea of a list that’s regularly updated, of writers to look out for. Indeed, who would maintain it, though. It’s something to think about.

  109. Tim Horvath

      Most underrated genres? The villanellestina, the holistic medical thriller, the epic fail, Austenpunk, the future memoir, Petco realism, Borgesian porn.

  110. jereme

      why do you need a list to find writers you enjoy?

  111. Mike Young

      the most saturated writers: writers most full of water

  112. Guest

      10 Best Fascist Dictators

  113. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Steven, I did think that you were responding to me so I believe that my quick and defensive response has no merit and thus my apologies for the misdirection. Thank you for clarifying and, additionally, I now understand and quite honestly agree about ratings in terms of sincerity, or at least that one can be well-publicized yet underrated because they may be compared to, or forever beneath, someone considered of the “first rate.”

  114. Roxane Gay

      Because, Jereme, we can’t know everything and read everything and I personally love having writers I’m not familiar with brought to my attention. It’s not about legitimacy. It’s about exposure.

  115. STaugustine

      Top Ten List of Underrated List-Makers

  116. STaugustine

      A kerfuffle averted

  117. Tyler Flynn Dorholt

      Hey Mike, great to know that my slip up is allowing you a little extra complacency this afternoon. It’s quite wonderful to get a tutorial such as this, especially on the internet.

  118. jereme

      woah, where did legitimacy fall in here. maybe i missed some part of the thread regarding it. i’m not saying shit about legit not legit.

      farthest thing from anything i care about.

      i was just wondering why you desired and needed a list. lists are political. you aren’t going to get anything other than an agenda.

      why not just learn on your own?

      an independent thinker.

  119. Roxane Gay

      The point I was making is that I don’t need the lists, I like them in terms of learning about a broader range of writers than the ones I am regularly exposed to. I respect your stance on independence but I think, sometimes, you sacrifice the benefits of common knowledge and collaboration at the altar of independence. Drawing from the opinions of others doesn’t have to compromise independence.

  120. jereme

      i guess i don’t find any usefulness in the list.

      a person will still read the books/writers to decide if they like the writing or not. the list isn’t doing anything other than exposure.

      why are you waiting for exposure to find you? why be so lazy in the pursuit for truth?

      “truth” being the beginning/ending of a something.

  121. Roxane Gay

      I guess I’d just say, what does truth have to do with it? Reading recommendations aren’t a quest for something grandiose. I find new writers all the time but I don’t mind hearing recommendations either. It has nothing to do with laziness or philosophical musings on the truth. Are you arguing to argue or are you serious here?

  122. jereme

      i am not arguing at all. i am trying to figure out your viewpoint.

      this is how i do it.

      i question myself a lot more aggressively in my mind.

      so, okay, yeah i wrote the above before you responded. read your response and figured out we read for different reasons.

      why do you read?

      i do agree i am losing something by not succumbing to the herd.

      but not much.

      my cure for this is to seek out people of great intellect, people i can learn from.

      so far i have found blake butler and sam pink. i value their opinion more than any list.

      i would probably put jimmy chen on the list of thinkers also. i need to name an animal after him and make it official.

  123. magick mike

      you’re welcome

  124. lily hoang

      1. nabokov. your turn.

  125. lily hoang

      i changed my mind and decided to add: 2. perec.

  126. STaugustine

      2. Whitman

  127. STaugustine

      4. Wallechinsky

  128. Roxane Gay

      Using a word like herd is so… argh. This has nothing to do with succumbing and I don’t know that I could ever get you to see my perspective.

      I read for lots of different reasons. I read for a living, basically. I enjoy it. I love learning. I love being challenged. I love finding things to complain about. And on.

  129. Guest

      5. Alexander Theroux

  130. jereme

      i can use the word majority instead of herd if it makes you feel less agitated at me.

      i can see the value in any point of view, but it will take effort.

      so what i have gathered is you like to read because it is a fun, challenging way to learn.

      but you are reactionary, you are lazy in your search for fun learning. you want lists to tell you what to read.

      i think a lot of people think this way.

  131. Roxane Gay

      Jereme, that’s a ridiculous characterization of my reading habits. Now, I’m going to be reactionary and step aside because I have to work and I just want to type profanities.

  132. jereme

      this is exactly why i try not to communicate with people.

      i didn’t mean to evoke negative emotions.

      sorry.

  133. Steven Augustine

      Good one!

  134. Roxane Gay

      I’m not mad, I’m frustrated but not in a way that makes me feel ill will. I really am working.

  135. darby

      jeereme, i kind of agree with your general sense i think, like relying on “big” lists like the NYT best-seller list, but i can’t just categorically dismiss all lists. there is a reading list that lamination colony did a few issues back that was incredibly useful to me as a means of digging deeper into a kind of literature that would be difficult to “find” otherwise, absent an MFA or something. I copied that list and put it in a spreadsheet and still refer to it all the time. lists are fine as long there is an understanding as to what the list really is and there is no confusion as to what can be concluded from it, which is often very little.

  136. jereme

      i am not saying disregard all lists,

      i think if a person is in pursuit of something, they will seek out a list, they will seek out the truth of that list and continue on.

      but…

      being handed a magazine with a list in it is pure influence, pure politicking.

      i am not necessarily questioning the conclusion, but the means to the conclusion.

      disregard all lists but your own.

  137. jereme

      i really liked the food lists from motorman.

  138. Matthew Simmons

      Marie Anna Langer and Adam Liszt, greatest Liszt-makers of all time.

  139. Sean

      Working in a U that ‘loves’ (Tao Lin quotes, respect [cough]) rankings and awards I wonder if academia drives many of these lists. I mean what is the necessity to rank, of all people, writers?

      It is developmentally Ok to rank everything at age 7: Dad, who is better Brett Favre or sweet butter? Dad, what goes faster, Usain Bolt or your lawnmower?

      Etc

      But after that, why?

      Fuck ratings. Can you get your book READ or NOT?

      [I’m a little into a rich red wine tonight so enjoying Caps–sorry. Still my inquiry is valid]

  140. Brendan Connell

      Baron Corvo

  141. Guest

      But America’s listing obsession transcends academia. We’re drowning in lists. Every other show on VH1 or ESPN is built around a list. It’s sort of creepy, actually.

  142. Guest

      Flavor Flav asks, “Who gives a fuck about a goddamn Grammy?”

  143. shane

      Ryan Call:

      Please write about the fact that Ted Genoways is likely gone from VQR. A horrible situation there that transcends “writing.”

  144. Guest

      Shane….care to elaborate….I’m curious if you have some dirt to spill……

  145. Lincoln
  146. Roxane Gay

      What a shame.

  147. Guest

      Lincoln, thanks. BTW, great write-up on the overrated overrated lists thingy. I shared on Facebook.

  148. Lincoln

      No prob and thanks!

      The whole VQR situation is sad. Hard to know how to comment so far removed from the situation.

  149. Ryan Call

      shane, certainly email us if you have any information. others can also read, in addition to the cville news pieces to which lincoln linked above, the comments section of this post at Waldo Jaquith’s blog for more words on the matter (including those of the sister of the deceased morrissey).

  150. Tim Horvath

      Most underrated genres? The villanellestina, the holistic medical thriller, the epic fail, Austenpunk, the future memoir, Petco realism, Borgesian porn.

  151. magick mike

      you’re welcome

  152. Roxane Gay

      What a shame.

  153. Ryan Sanford Smith

      ‘What do you all think?’

      Hrm. That the ‘underrated’ / ‘overrated’ thing is folly basically beginning to end. What -does- make one either, indeed? Some of like Diaz, etc. It’s all subjective. One person’s list is another’s guffaw, which I guess means I’m saying that such lists are silly, and 76 (now 77?) comments on such lists are the silly dancing with the silly (or leading them, whatever).

      I’ll be silly though– Diaz is great, so is Percival Everett, who doesn’t get nearly enough attention.

  154. Ryan Sanford Smith

      ‘What do you all think?’

      Hrm. That the ‘underrated’ / ‘overrated’ thing is folly basically beginning to end. What -does- make one either, indeed? Some of like Diaz, etc. It’s all subjective. One person’s list is another’s guffaw, which I guess means I’m saying that such lists are silly, and 76 (now 77?) comments on such lists are the silly dancing with the silly (or leading them, whatever).

      I’ll be silly though– Diaz is great, so is Percival Everett, who doesn’t get nearly enough attention.

  155. René Georg Vasicek

      American writers swim in a fishbowl. A very big fucking fishbowl. But it’s still a fishbowl.

  156. zusya17

      there are quite a few american writers out there peacefully swimming about with the rest of the world in the Biggest Aquarium Ever Built. they just tend to be ones that aren’t proactively engaged in promoting themselves.

  157. René Georg Vasicek

      American writers swim in a fishbowl. A very big fucking fishbowl. But it’s still a fishbowl.