August 27th, 2009 / 2:49 pm
Snippets
Snippets
Ryan Call—
Some sort of discussion about race, gender, economic class in indie lit ongoing at Pank.
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Meta
I feel a little pre-dismissed from that conversation.
I feel a little pre-dismissed from that conversation.
It may come off that way, which was never our intention, but you’re not.
Roxane both has, and does not have, a point.
For example: HTML Giant is white-bread. We all know that. This is Brian Evenson territory. This is Dennis Cooper land. Fine.
Yet HTML Giant has every right to be whatever it chooses (not that it chooses to be “white”). It’s simply an online community. A loose community, but a community.
More of an argument/discussion could be made about the insular nature of the indie scene. The reciprocal publishing and so on. That seems to be the ultimate taboo conversation.
It may come off that way, which was never our intention, but you’re not.
Roxane both has, and does not have, a point.
For example: HTML Giant is white-bread. We all know that. This is Brian Evenson territory. This is Dennis Cooper land. Fine.
Yet HTML Giant has every right to be whatever it chooses (not that it chooses to be “white”). It’s simply an online community. A loose community, but a community.
More of an argument/discussion could be made about the insular nature of the indie scene. The reciprocal publishing and so on. That seems to be the ultimate taboo conversation.
A thing I like about PH Madore is that he’ll get really heatedly upset about something in a comments-debate and then someone will say, no no no, you didn’t understand me and then PHM will agree and apologize.
I just read that whole thread and left a comment bc they were asking HTMLgianters to put in their two cents. I think I put in about 1/12th a cent.
A thing I like about PH Madore is that he’ll get really heatedly upset about something in a comments-debate and then someone will say, no no no, you didn’t understand me and then PHM will agree and apologize.
I just read that whole thread and left a comment bc they were asking HTMLgianters to put in their two cents. I think I put in about 1/12th a cent.
I know. For the record, I’m basically right there with you. I’ve always been struck by the lack of diversity in the corner of the indie lit world where I spend my time. And I’m flummoxed as to what to do about it.
We all sort of found each other across a crowded internet. Maybe we just need to yell a little louder to get the attention of like-minded writers of color.
Does that make sense?
I know. For the record, I’m basically right there with you. I’ve always been struck by the lack of diversity in the corner of the indie lit world where I spend my time. And I’m flummoxed as to what to do about it.
We all sort of found each other across a crowded internet. Maybe we just need to yell a little louder to get the attention of like-minded writers of color.
Does that make sense?
I think it’s weird he was “offended” to be compared to Blake:
“I’m certainly not Blake Butler, find that comparison insulting, and think this part of the thread has become overtly personal.”
I think it’s weird he was “offended” to be compared to Blake:
“I’m certainly not Blake Butler, find that comparison insulting, and think this part of the thread has become overtly personal.”
shameless self-promotion:
i put together 3 issues of a literary magazine to combat this very issue. check it out, please.
ghostfactorymagazine.blogspot.com
i feel a little dismissed since i’m not white and an htmlgiant contributor. it seems, if anything, htmlg is one of the few places with a non-write contributor.
shameless self-promotion:
i put together 3 issues of a literary magazine to combat this very issue. check it out, please.
ghostfactorymagazine.blogspot.com
i feel a little dismissed since i’m not white and an htmlgiant contributor. it seems, if anything, htmlg is one of the few places with a non-write contributor.
True. Did I not include you as the exception? Sorry Jimmy!
True. Did I not include you as the exception? Sorry Jimmy!
ah, that comment wasn’t directed at you… more locus pocus and pank.
ah, that comment wasn’t directed at you… more locus pocus and pank.
This is always a tricky subject and even trickier for a white male like me. I do feel that the original post seemed to not dig deep enough, as subsequent comments pointed out…. by which I mean, PHM is correct to note the class issue at play here and Catherine Lacey is correct to note that the slush pile is heavily male (and certainly also heavily white). It is not that editors are ignoring minority/women writers, it is that they aren’t getting as many and the reasons why are likely part of a larger cultural problem than a problem with the magazines (as in, the magazines aren’t necessarily encouraging this state of affairs… and indeed most are probably doing something to combat it. I know it is something I and fellow editors always been conscious of at magazines I’ve worked for.) Of course, this doesn’t go far towards a solution either, so…
This is always a tricky subject and even trickier for a white male like me. I do feel that the original post seemed to not dig deep enough, as subsequent comments pointed out…. by which I mean, PHM is correct to note the class issue at play here and Catherine Lacey is correct to note that the slush pile is heavily male (and certainly also heavily white). It is not that editors are ignoring minority/women writers, it is that they aren’t getting as many and the reasons why are likely part of a larger cultural problem than a problem with the magazines (as in, the magazines aren’t necessarily encouraging this state of affairs… and indeed most are probably doing something to combat it. I know it is something I and fellow editors always been conscious of at magazines I’ve worked for.) Of course, this doesn’t go far towards a solution either, so…
True, Jimmy. Your posts (and those of Justin and Blake) are the most interesting of the blog.
The overall push of the blog, though, is white writers. This is not a criticism. It is not even a problem. I don’t think the contributors here dislike non-white writers. Nor do they avoid them. The issue is the defensiveness of all sides. The nervousness that occurs during discussions of race in certain writing communities.
True, Jimmy. Your posts (and those of Justin and Blake) are the most interesting of the blog.
The overall push of the blog, though, is white writers. This is not a criticism. It is not even a problem. I don’t think the contributors here dislike non-white writers. Nor do they avoid them. The issue is the defensiveness of all sides. The nervousness that occurs during discussions of race in certain writing communities.
That definitely makes sense! I’m all for yelling louder.
That definitely makes sense! I’m all for yelling louder.
I just want to say I have no problem with HTML Giant’s nature or existence. At least four contributors are in or forthcoming in PANK. I read this site every day and comment once in a while and frankly, anyone (like myself) who has the time to be online throughout the day and post about anything on the Internet has all kinds of privilege. My post was just a first step into this sort of conversation. It was not intended to be definitive or canonical or anything more than thinking aloud. And a conversation about insularity would be very interesting.
I just want to say I have no problem with HTML Giant’s nature or existence. At least four contributors are in or forthcoming in PANK. I read this site every day and comment once in a while and frankly, anyone (like myself) who has the time to be online throughout the day and post about anything on the Internet has all kinds of privilege. My post was just a first step into this sort of conversation. It was not intended to be definitive or canonical or anything more than thinking aloud. And a conversation about insularity would be very interesting.
There are some African American, Asian, Latino writers who take part here. Not that many. There should be more, but this place is open (to commenters at least). I don’t think that there is anything here to discourage people of all races and creeds. At least, I hope not.
There are some African American, Asian, Latino writers who take part here. Not that many. There should be more, but this place is open (to commenters at least). I don’t think that there is anything here to discourage people of all races and creeds. At least, I hope not.
what’s funny abt that is I wasnt comparing him to blake, it was misread… but I fucked up a little by even naming individuals at all, it sort of invariably sets the conversation off in a bad direction even tho my intent was not to bash, my comment wasnt even really supposed to be abt the individuals.
what’s funny abt that is I wasnt comparing him to blake, it was misread… but I fucked up a little by even naming individuals at all, it sort of invariably sets the conversation off in a bad direction even tho my intent was not to bash, my comment wasnt even really supposed to be abt the individuals.
I think htmlgiant has at times, against the wishes and intentions of its contributors, become emblematic for some folks of something, some idea of what indie lit is in some essentialized way. It’s actually really interesting to monitor the tension between the actual htmlgiant posts and the idea (or ideas) of htmlgiant that spread beyond what’s actually there in the posts and comment threads. …I don’t know whether that makes any sense.
I think htmlgiant has at times, against the wishes and intentions of its contributors, become emblematic for some folks of something, some idea of what indie lit is in some essentialized way. It’s actually really interesting to monitor the tension between the actual htmlgiant posts and the idea (or ideas) of htmlgiant that spread beyond what’s actually there in the posts and comment threads. …I don’t know whether that makes any sense.
I also like that he does call folks out on their elitism, and is really passionate about trying to find ways for a much broader community of folks to access indie/online lit.
need to fucking read those already. i am negligent.
I also like that he does call folks out on their elitism, and is really passionate about trying to find ways for a much broader community of folks to access indie/online lit.
need to fucking read those already. i am negligent.
they are very pretty. sometimes I pet them.
they are very pretty. sometimes I pet them.
maybe if more people read A people’s history of America they’d have better tools in getting into such debates.
Man, I keep mentioning that book. Everywhere. To everyone. It’s just that good. Just that eye opening.
maybe if more people read A people’s history of America they’d have better tools in getting into such debates.
Man, I keep mentioning that book. Everywhere. To everyone. It’s just that good. Just that eye opening.
I have to read that book. I keep hearing how enlightening it is
I have to read that book. I keep hearing how enlightening it is
Me, too.
Me, too.
Laughed at darby’s comments.
Laughed at darby’s comments.
this is a really interesting conversation, one that molly gaudry & i have been having too, about indie lit in general. thing is: you can count the number of asian americans in it on a hand (or two, if you’re being generous), but what about everyone else!?
furthermore, i think the question of privilege & class/education is one much more telling than that of race.
roxane: thanks for writing it!
this is a really interesting conversation, one that molly gaudry & i have been having too, about indie lit in general. thing is: you can count the number of asian americans in it on a hand (or two, if you’re being generous), but what about everyone else!?
furthermore, i think the question of privilege & class/education is one much more telling than that of race.
roxane: thanks for writing it!
When actions are taken to “combat” such problems, doesn’t that make it worse?
Take any given magazine which is open to the consideration of any submission by any artist/writer who makes the choice to submit work (most,) if the work submitted by said artist/writer is deemed publishable by the subjective standards of said magazine, that’s that. If 97 white people submit work, and 2 black people submit work, and one asian person submits work, chances are you’re going to have more publishable work (most likely) written by white people. That people of other ethnicity’s did not submit, is just something that happened. But when a magazine is created which only takes work by African American’s living in the surrounding area of St.Louis between the ages of 16 and 28, or whatever it is they do (and have the right to do so), this is an active act of exclusion.
or maybe not. i don’t know.
also,
is there a lack of upper middle class white people in the slam poetry world? is the slam poetry world a form of indie lit?
I don’t really give a shit about slam poetry.
When actions are taken to “combat” such problems, doesn’t that make it worse?
Take any given magazine which is open to the consideration of any submission by any artist/writer who makes the choice to submit work (most,) if the work submitted by said artist/writer is deemed publishable by the subjective standards of said magazine, that’s that. If 97 white people submit work, and 2 black people submit work, and one asian person submits work, chances are you’re going to have more publishable work (most likely) written by white people. That people of other ethnicity’s did not submit, is just something that happened. But when a magazine is created which only takes work by African American’s living in the surrounding area of St.Louis between the ages of 16 and 28, or whatever it is they do (and have the right to do so), this is an active act of exclusion.
or maybe not. i don’t know.
also,
is there a lack of upper middle class white people in the slam poetry world? is the slam poetry world a form of indie lit?
I don’t really give a shit about slam poetry.