October 12th, 2009 / 12:31 pm
Snippets
Snippets
Adam Robinson—
But if everyone just reposts (slash-republishes) their stories at Fictionaut, won’t I just go there to read everything?
I don’t understand the appeal of that site at all. At best, it seems like a place for a small group of people to pat each other on the back.
I don’t understand the appeal of that site at all. At best, it seems like a place for a small group of people to pat each other on the back.
I can’t figure out the point of that site, either. Nor can I figure out how to quit it. That always creeps me out, when there’s no obvious way to quit a place you’ve given your email address to.
I can’t figure out the point of that site, either. Nor can I figure out how to quit it. That always creeps me out, when there’s no obvious way to quit a place you’ve given your email address to.
Fictionaut is too networky.
Fictionaut is too networky.
I was a member a while ago and quit it. It’s a long process of emailing their support and waiting a week or so for them to purge you from it. Also, someone will email you and try to figure out why you are quitting. it’s kind of like trying to change phone companies.
To be fair, it’s the same thing trying to get a membership purged from zoetrope. It took like a month I think for me to do that and someone emailed me and tried to talk me out of it.
I was a member a while ago and quit it. It’s a long process of emailing their support and waiting a week or so for them to purge you from it. Also, someone will email you and try to figure out why you are quitting. it’s kind of like trying to change phone companies.
To be fair, it’s the same thing trying to get a membership purged from zoetrope. It took like a month I think for me to do that and someone emailed me and tried to talk me out of it.
That kind of stuff honestly freaks me out.
That kind of stuff honestly freaks me out.
I think it’s interesting. Journals basically have no provision for this kind of thing: a public forum for reviewing and “workshopping” the written word. If they require that the work has not been published before, what’s the definition of publish? Blog software uses that word to indicate posting to one’s blog. Is that publishing? Or must there be an editorial apparatus involved?
I too, however, think there’s too much back-patting for it to be a viable workshop environment. I posted a story there, and received some good, hard criticism (though, unfortunately, these were sent to me privately, not posted to the Fictionaut page). It would be probably interesting to hear Jurgen Fauth comment on this.
Jurgen, are you reading?
I think it’s interesting. Journals basically have no provision for this kind of thing: a public forum for reviewing and “workshopping” the written word. If they require that the work has not been published before, what’s the definition of publish? Blog software uses that word to indicate posting to one’s blog. Is that publishing? Or must there be an editorial apparatus involved?
I too, however, think there’s too much back-patting for it to be a viable workshop environment. I posted a story there, and received some good, hard criticism (though, unfortunately, these were sent to me privately, not posted to the Fictionaut page). It would be probably interesting to hear Jurgen Fauth comment on this.
Jurgen, are you reading?
yes.
what they ought to do is if it’s still online somewhere or is published in a purchasable thing, simply provide a link, maybe give a small excerpt of the story. Make the point of it to get readers to go to those journals and read work there, or buy things, instead of it being about authors needing backs patted. As it is, I can’t read anything there and know it’s published somewhere else. I feel guilty for not reading it where it was originally.
they should make it more like zoetrope where you have to be a member to read the work there. Right now, all the archives are available to be read by anyone, and that is ‘published’ in my head, or re-published, and is anyone seeking consent with the original publishers?
Pretty soon journals are going to start saying they don’t accept fictionaut posted stories in submission guidelines.
yes.
what they ought to do is if it’s still online somewhere or is published in a purchasable thing, simply provide a link, maybe give a small excerpt of the story. Make the point of it to get readers to go to those journals and read work there, or buy things, instead of it being about authors needing backs patted. As it is, I can’t read anything there and know it’s published somewhere else. I feel guilty for not reading it where it was originally.
they should make it more like zoetrope where you have to be a member to read the work there. Right now, all the archives are available to be read by anyone, and that is ‘published’ in my head, or re-published, and is anyone seeking consent with the original publishers?
Pretty soon journals are going to start saying they don’t accept fictionaut posted stories in submission guidelines.
I would consider anything published in a place that is open to the public, whether “workshop forum,” lit zine, personal blog, or what have you, to be published.
I believe that is the standard in the lit mag world. I know posting to a blog disqualifies you from most places, so I don’t’ see why an public writing forum would be different.
I would consider anything published in a place that is open to the public, whether “workshop forum,” lit zine, personal blog, or what have you, to be published.
I believe that is the standard in the lit mag world. I know posting to a blog disqualifies you from most places, so I don’t’ see why an public writing forum would be different.
Oh, are people posting already-published work? I didn’t know that. That seems odd. I’d assume it would be a place to get feedback during a draft stage. If someone was indeed interested in continuing to work on an already-published piece, doing as you say: linking to it, but then acquiring comments in the Fictionaut space, would be a good solution. It would have the benefit of bringing new traffic to the original venue.
Oh, are people posting already-published work? I didn’t know that. That seems odd. I’d assume it would be a place to get feedback during a draft stage. If someone was indeed interested in continuing to work on an already-published piece, doing as you say: linking to it, but then acquiring comments in the Fictionaut space, would be a good solution. It would have the benefit of bringing new traffic to the original venue.
Yeah, I can see that. That makes sense. I’m not sure I’d want to publish it, either, unless significant changes had been made. Like, from a rough draft to a final draft. In which case, actually, I might be even enthusiastic about publishing it, from a promotional standpoint, since it would have this established audience interested to see how it turned out, who could be notified of its publication through Fictionaut. This would require a different use than the one to which it’s currently being put, however.
Yeah, I can see that. That makes sense. I’m not sure I’d want to publish it, either, unless significant changes had been made. Like, from a rough draft to a final draft. In which case, actually, I might be even enthusiastic about publishing it, from a promotional standpoint, since it would have this established audience interested to see how it turned out, who could be notified of its publication through Fictionaut. This would require a different use than the one to which it’s currently being put, however.
Most folks are only posting previously published stuff, largely because of the issue with journals being unwilling to accept work that’s already appeared someplace else, I imagine. They recently made it possible to post stories that are “private” that can be posted to closed groups for workshopping.
As an editor, I’m totally fine with people re-publishing their work there, especially if they link it to the magazine’s group page on Fictionaut. Seems like just one more way to promote the magazine.
All that said, though… yeah, the back-pattiness is a bit much. I’ll be curious to see if David Erlewine jumps in here, because he comments on every story posted, it seems. Would love to know what the value is that he gets from F’naut, as he clearly puts a lot of energy into it. I’m assuming the social networking aspect of it?
Most folks are only posting previously published stuff, largely because of the issue with journals being unwilling to accept work that’s already appeared someplace else, I imagine. They recently made it possible to post stories that are “private” that can be posted to closed groups for workshopping.
As an editor, I’m totally fine with people re-publishing their work there, especially if they link it to the magazine’s group page on Fictionaut. Seems like just one more way to promote the magazine.
All that said, though… yeah, the back-pattiness is a bit much. I’ll be curious to see if David Erlewine jumps in here, because he comments on every story posted, it seems. Would love to know what the value is that he gets from F’naut, as he clearly puts a lot of energy into it. I’m assuming the social networking aspect of it?
posting private stories in groups makes sense. I didn’t know they were doing that.
posting private stories in groups makes sense. I didn’t know they were doing that.
Yeah, I didn’t notice that function either. I’ve changed the setting on the story I’ve posted. Thanks for the heads-up!
Yeah, I didn’t notice that function either. I’ve changed the setting on the story I’ve posted. Thanks for the heads-up!
Well, back-patting is fun and valuable for a lot of reasons, not all of them bad. For instance, I find it motivating.
Well, back-patting is fun and valuable for a lot of reasons, not all of them bad. For instance, I find it motivating.
i have OCD
will be fixed soon
not posting as much since the turnover
loved when folks like kathy fish, molly gaudry, and others were posting drafts there
have been solicited quite a few times (back when it was “safe” b/c of password-protections, etc.
i have a little workshop there that is password-protected and have gotten my stories consistently tore up by good writers/editors
i understand/”get” the backhandiness concerns. they are valid in many cases
sometimes there are just so many stories to read before they get archived…that it’s good to have them on fictionaut. i definitely try to cross-post into that group’s office.
now that i’m editing for jmww, i don’t expect to be on f-naut as much
i also like telling someone that i’m going to f-mail them.
hmm, social networking is something i do quite a bit differently and not under my real name – that is a joke as my wife and friends can google this
i have OCD
will be fixed soon
not posting as much since the turnover
loved when folks like kathy fish, molly gaudry, and others were posting drafts there
have been solicited quite a few times (back when it was “safe” b/c of password-protections, etc.
i have a little workshop there that is password-protected and have gotten my stories consistently tore up by good writers/editors
i understand/”get” the backhandiness concerns. they are valid in many cases
sometimes there are just so many stories to read before they get archived…that it’s good to have them on fictionaut. i definitely try to cross-post into that group’s office.
now that i’m editing for jmww, i don’t expect to be on f-naut as much
i also like telling someone that i’m going to f-mail them.
hmm, social networking is something i do quite a bit differently and not under my real name – that is a joke as my wife and friends can google this
backhandiness (WTF?) should be backpattiness
backhandiness (WTF?) should be backpattiness
i should have just said that, adam.
why do i write such tiny pieces but in NF world just blather and blather?
i really liked your bitter love story. i just made some coop renner type changes on fictionaut.
some would say i changed a lot of your micro. i do not think i changed one ounce of its true being, just tightened and slashed a bit.
i should have just said that, adam.
why do i write such tiny pieces but in NF world just blather and blather?
i really liked your bitter love story. i just made some coop renner type changes on fictionaut.
some would say i changed a lot of your micro. i do not think i changed one ounce of its true being, just tightened and slashed a bit.
Doesn’t site layout have a lot to do with what we read online? A place like Juked, for instance, has a very easy-on-the-eyes appeal. Some other sites are very hard on the eyes. If Fictionaut becomes a sink drain for all published fiction, they had better tweak the layout a bit.
Doesn’t site layout have a lot to do with what we read online? A place like Juked, for instance, has a very easy-on-the-eyes appeal. Some other sites are very hard on the eyes. If Fictionaut becomes a sink drain for all published fiction, they had better tweak the layout a bit.
Uh, HTMLGIANT?
Uh, HTMLGIANT?
Now that anyone can see it, it’s not really as interesting (though the private workshop functionality works and has been in use for the past few weeks). It was nice when unpublished stuff go make it the front page and get fav’d and get more views so you could get more feedback. If you don’t have a bunch of people to read your drafts, it was nice to get some backpats and some feedback, as well as get some more exposure for lit mag X or Z.
I think the preoccupation with virgin discovery for magazines is a bit overdone. Being on a blog is not being published. It’s being available. My view is that they’re different things and should be treated as such.
It’s not really social networking all that much in some creepy sort of way. I find that criticism pretty meaningless. If you want to read and write in a vacuum then fine. HTML Giant and its comment section is pretty “social” too.
But everyone posting stuff that just came out the last week on a different site? Eh. Not all that interesting.
Now that anyone can see it, it’s not really as interesting (though the private workshop functionality works and has been in use for the past few weeks). It was nice when unpublished stuff go make it the front page and get fav’d and get more views so you could get more feedback. If you don’t have a bunch of people to read your drafts, it was nice to get some backpats and some feedback, as well as get some more exposure for lit mag X or Z.
I think the preoccupation with virgin discovery for magazines is a bit overdone. Being on a blog is not being published. It’s being available. My view is that they’re different things and should be treated as such.
It’s not really social networking all that much in some creepy sort of way. I find that criticism pretty meaningless. If you want to read and write in a vacuum then fine. HTML Giant and its comment section is pretty “social” too.
But everyone posting stuff that just came out the last week on a different site? Eh. Not all that interesting.
htmlgiant is a blog to talk about literature, not a place to republish your own work so your friends can publicly leave comments about how rad it is. giant editors don’t post their work on here. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a little back patting. I just don’t get what fictionaut is good for except that. It just doesn’t seem to offer anything at this stage.
htmlgiant is a blog to talk about literature, not a place to republish your own work so your friends can publicly leave comments about how rad it is. giant editors don’t post their work on here. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a little back patting. I just don’t get what fictionaut is good for except that. It just doesn’t seem to offer anything at this stage.
Word. A spoonful of (un)deserved praise helps the rejection go down.
Word. A spoonful of (un)deserved praise helps the rejection go down.
i don’ know. I’m a pretty cynical person I think. I really need a back-pat to be honest and feel personally like its really deserved for it to mean something to me. otherwise it demotivates me, if I’m just getting a barage of back-pats. i feel like people want the favor returned or are looking to gain something for themselves more than anything else. also i’m the kind of person where negative reinforcement is what really motivates me, that idea of someone telling me I suck or I can’t do something gets me fired up to prove them wrong. someone telling me I’m already doing a good job makes it difficult for me to try any harder. all just me though, to each his own. i’ve seen people thrive in positive-feedback rich environments. it works for people.
i have nothing personally against fictionaut. I think it helps people feel better, or even be better writers, its just not for me.
i do read and enjoy the fictionaut blog, actually.
i don’ know. I’m a pretty cynical person I think. I really need a back-pat to be honest and feel personally like its really deserved for it to mean something to me. otherwise it demotivates me, if I’m just getting a barage of back-pats. i feel like people want the favor returned or are looking to gain something for themselves more than anything else. also i’m the kind of person where negative reinforcement is what really motivates me, that idea of someone telling me I suck or I can’t do something gets me fired up to prove them wrong. someone telling me I’m already doing a good job makes it difficult for me to try any harder. all just me though, to each his own. i’ve seen people thrive in positive-feedback rich environments. it works for people.
i have nothing personally against fictionaut. I think it helps people feel better, or even be better writers, its just not for me.
i do read and enjoy the fictionaut blog, actually.
well, not their fiction. They posts essays and questions, which seem like work. Yes?
well, not their fiction. They posts essays and questions, which seem like work. Yes?
I got purged from Zoetrope by being an ass. Eight of us were “ghosted”. That is, we were not banned, but could only be seen by each other. No one told us that this was being done. It was Orwellian weirdness. We eventually figured it out and created our own forum for writers, We got mentioned in magazines. It was crazy.
I got purged from Zoetrope by being an ass. Eight of us were “ghosted”. That is, we were not banned, but could only be seen by each other. No one told us that this was being done. It was Orwellian weirdness. We eventually figured it out and created our own forum for writers, We got mentioned in magazines. It was crazy.
Ben:
I think the preoccupation with virgin discovery for magazines is a bit overdone. Being on a blog is not being published. It’s being available. My view is that they’re different things and should be treated as such.
Isn’t being available basically the whole point though? I don’t think the issue is “discovering” someone before another editor does, but in having exclusive content. What function does a magazine serve if all the pieces are already available elsewhere? And with a blog, the work has likely been read by a lot of the people who would be interested in it in a magazine.
I think it would make more sense to republish something from a print publication that is out of print and unavailable than to republish something that is already available elsewhere online.
Ben:
I think the preoccupation with virgin discovery for magazines is a bit overdone. Being on a blog is not being published. It’s being available. My view is that they’re different things and should be treated as such.
Isn’t being available basically the whole point though? I don’t think the issue is “discovering” someone before another editor does, but in having exclusive content. What function does a magazine serve if all the pieces are already available elsewhere? And with a blog, the work has likely been read by a lot of the people who would be interested in it in a magazine.
I think it would make more sense to republish something from a print publication that is out of print and unavailable than to republish something that is already available elsewhere online.
I put an original piece up there and then Roxane Gay said she wanted to publish it in response to a despairing note where I wrote that if someone wanted to publish it they could. I didn’t actually know this place was public until I logged out and entered the link and still saw my story. That doesn’t bother me but it does cut the place’s usefulness down a little bit. I’ve been thinking a replacement for Zoetrope would come eventually but still hasn’t. Zoetrope will hopefully never die for this and other reasons. Then again fuck Zoetrope because there are a lot of people there even more narrow-minded than the sycophants here, and wow I just said sycophants and it made sense.
I put an original piece up there and then Roxane Gay said she wanted to publish it in response to a despairing note where I wrote that if someone wanted to publish it they could. I didn’t actually know this place was public until I logged out and entered the link and still saw my story. That doesn’t bother me but it does cut the place’s usefulness down a little bit. I’ve been thinking a replacement for Zoetrope would come eventually but still hasn’t. Zoetrope will hopefully never die for this and other reasons. Then again fuck Zoetrope because there are a lot of people there even more narrow-minded than the sycophants here, and wow I just said sycophants and it made sense.
Oh and this all happened right here: http://www.fictionaut.com/stories/p-h-madore/bandits-in-the-afternoon-rain
Oh and this all happened right here: http://www.fictionaut.com/stories/p-h-madore/bandits-in-the-afternoon-rain
Also, does anybody ever think, “I can change the way things are going at a certain place.”
I mean, I think that one or two doses of the negativity regularly dished out in this neck of the woods would totally reverse all of the hipster idiocy you guys seem to be lamenting. I keep hearing that song “Up With People” by Lambchop in my head. I feel like my unwillingness to write in my journal the past two months has somehow forced me to write snippets of retardation everywhere I get the opportunity.
Also, does anybody ever think, “I can change the way things are going at a certain place.”
I mean, I think that one or two doses of the negativity regularly dished out in this neck of the woods would totally reverse all of the hipster idiocy you guys seem to be lamenting. I keep hearing that song “Up With People” by Lambchop in my head. I feel like my unwillingness to write in my journal the past two months has somehow forced me to write snippets of retardation everywhere I get the opportunity.
Replacement Zoe: http://www.stwa.net
Much better workshop and forum than zoetrope
Replacement Zoe: http://www.stwa.net
Much better workshop and forum than zoetrope
darby, Fictionaut was still very new when you decided to quit and there wasn’t an easy way for us to do delete you — it took a bunch of work on the backend to delete all references to a user and keep the site from breaking. we now have an easier way to do this, and anybody who asks can be deleted in minutes. At that point, you were just about the only person who ever asked to be deleted, and I figured it’s worth asking why when your beta testers want to quit. Sorry if I creeped you out.
darby, Fictionaut was still very new when you decided to quit and there wasn’t an easy way for us to do delete you — it took a bunch of work on the backend to delete all references to a user and keep the site from breaking. we now have an easier way to do this, and anybody who asks can be deleted in minutes. At that point, you were just about the only person who ever asked to be deleted, and I figured it’s worth asking why when your beta testers want to quit. Sorry if I creeped you out.
hi jurgen. good to hear you made it easier to be removed. thanks.
hi jurgen. good to hear you made it easier to be removed. thanks.
Eh. To each his own. I just logged into STWA again last week after having been away for… three years? Something like that. And even when I was there previously, I didn’t use it much. I don’t think that’s a flaw of STWA or a pro for Zoe. Both places, I think you pretty much get out of it whatever you put into it.
Eh. To each his own. I just logged into STWA again last week after having been away for… three years? Something like that. And even when I was there previously, I didn’t use it much. I don’t think that’s a flaw of STWA or a pro for Zoe. Both places, I think you pretty much get out of it whatever you put into it.
Some thoughts:
Nothing can substitute for the original medium, in my opinion. The one thing F’naut offers that I enjoy is the commenting feature. I like when writing can function conversationally.
While there is some back patting that happens at Fictionaut, I think it’s a bit reductionist to characterize all the comments there as such. I also think, as others have noted, that there’s nothing wrong with back patting. There’s nothing wrong with liking things, is there? It is smug and silly to suggest that it is a place that makes writers feel better. I’ve gotten very real, beneficial critiques on unpublished work I’ve posted and when writers ask for feedback in the author’s comment, I give them the same feedback I would give to a PANK submission. And when I like something, I like having the opportunity to tell the writer that in a neatly contained forum. It is, for me, a nice convenience.
As an editor, I don’t care if writers want to put their work on F’naut though I understand differing opinions as well. I read Madore’s piece last night, enjoyed it (and especially the last line), so I ignored the sad little note and asked if he would let us include it in the October issue. Matt Bell and I have been talking about F’naut and whether or not it qualifies as publication. I’m going to post that conversation as a blog post at PANK at some point when I get around to it.
Some thoughts:
Nothing can substitute for the original medium, in my opinion. The one thing F’naut offers that I enjoy is the commenting feature. I like when writing can function conversationally.
While there is some back patting that happens at Fictionaut, I think it’s a bit reductionist to characterize all the comments there as such. I also think, as others have noted, that there’s nothing wrong with back patting. There’s nothing wrong with liking things, is there? It is smug and silly to suggest that it is a place that makes writers feel better. I’ve gotten very real, beneficial critiques on unpublished work I’ve posted and when writers ask for feedback in the author’s comment, I give them the same feedback I would give to a PANK submission. And when I like something, I like having the opportunity to tell the writer that in a neatly contained forum. It is, for me, a nice convenience.
As an editor, I don’t care if writers want to put their work on F’naut though I understand differing opinions as well. I read Madore’s piece last night, enjoyed it (and especially the last line), so I ignored the sad little note and asked if he would let us include it in the October issue. Matt Bell and I have been talking about F’naut and whether or not it qualifies as publication. I’m going to post that conversation as a blog post at PANK at some point when I get around to it.
The idea is for Fictionaut to provide the infrastructure to empower writers, and how you use it is up to you. You can post new work. You can workshop unfinished stuff in private groups. You can post novel excerpts. You can repost previously published work — perhaps it’s in a back issue of a hard-to-find print mag, perhaps you want to draw attention to the online magazine it ran in. You can add stuff to specific groups to get more exposure or discuss specific questions. Yes, some magazines might consider stories on Fictionaut “previously published.” Some might ask you to hide or delete them if they accept you. Some don’t care. With the privacy controls, you retain complete control over who can see your story, so you can stay flexible according to different editors demands. (See here for an interesting discussion: http://www.fictionaut.com/groups/wigleaf/threads/15)
The other consideration is that we may already have reached a point where a popular story on Fictionaut can get more attention than it might have in an obscure literary magazine. I’ve played the submissions game for a long time, and I know how frustrating it is to wait on your rejections — and it’s almost more frustrating to get accepted, wait for the magazine to come out, and know of exactly no one who bought and read it. You get that line on your resume, but it can feel like the story got swallowed whole. On Fictionaut, you can get responses within minutes, and right now, the popular stories get hundreds of reads. There are plenty of people there who post new work and get attention for it. Stories have been picked up by editors reading the site, and I know of at least three agents who read it regularly. Again, how you use Fictionaut is up to you.
I’ve heard the complaint about the backpadding before, and I see what you’re talking about — the atmosphere on F’naut is more like at a reading than in a workshop: if you like it, you might say something nice to the writer, if you don’t, you bite your tongue. It doesn’t have to be that way, though. Ever since we introduced groups, I expected somebody to form one for hard-core gloves-off criticism. If you want tougher comments, you could say so in your author’s note, and I’m sure somebody will be happy to comply.
The idea is for Fictionaut to provide the infrastructure to empower writers, and how you use it is up to you. You can post new work. You can workshop unfinished stuff in private groups. You can post novel excerpts. You can repost previously published work — perhaps it’s in a back issue of a hard-to-find print mag, perhaps you want to draw attention to the online magazine it ran in. You can add stuff to specific groups to get more exposure or discuss specific questions. Yes, some magazines might consider stories on Fictionaut “previously published.” Some might ask you to hide or delete them if they accept you. Some don’t care. With the privacy controls, you retain complete control over who can see your story, so you can stay flexible according to different editors demands. (See here for an interesting discussion: http://www.fictionaut.com/groups/wigleaf/threads/15)
The other consideration is that we may already have reached a point where a popular story on Fictionaut can get more attention than it might have in an obscure literary magazine. I’ve played the submissions game for a long time, and I know how frustrating it is to wait on your rejections — and it’s almost more frustrating to get accepted, wait for the magazine to come out, and know of exactly no one who bought and read it. You get that line on your resume, but it can feel like the story got swallowed whole. On Fictionaut, you can get responses within minutes, and right now, the popular stories get hundreds of reads. There are plenty of people there who post new work and get attention for it. Stories have been picked up by editors reading the site, and I know of at least three agents who read it regularly. Again, how you use Fictionaut is up to you.
I’ve heard the complaint about the backpadding before, and I see what you’re talking about — the atmosphere on F’naut is more like at a reading than in a workshop: if you like it, you might say something nice to the writer, if you don’t, you bite your tongue. It doesn’t have to be that way, though. Ever since we introduced groups, I expected somebody to form one for hard-core gloves-off criticism. If you want tougher comments, you could say so in your author’s note, and I’m sure somebody will be happy to comply.
I agree. It’s just that Zoe is so very, very crowded. You can’t get noticed by people to get crits. STWA is easier to make your mark on. Just my opinion
I agree. It’s just that Zoe is so very, very crowded. You can’t get noticed by people to get crits. STWA is easier to make your mark on. Just my opinion
Feedback point is well taken. It seems like a lot of the time unless someone clicks back to some blog post and leaves you a comment (which Roxane has done before and is awesome for doing so), the only feedback you might get on your piece is from the editor.
Comments are nice. Getting comments from strangers is nice. It is a nice convenience. It’s nice.
Feedback point is well taken. It seems like a lot of the time unless someone clicks back to some blog post and leaves you a comment (which Roxane has done before and is awesome for doing so), the only feedback you might get on your piece is from the editor.
Comments are nice. Getting comments from strangers is nice. It is a nice convenience. It’s nice.
1) I think the point of online publishing is not to make things available. It’s to feature good writing. I pay $10 a year for my domain name. I can ‘publish’ my recipe for chili there all I want, but it’s not the same thing as having it featured in a publication. The vetting process is what matters to me, having someone believe in the writing other than the writer. The fact that it’s a special little thing that exists only in one place? I could care less. Anything can be available.
2) Your point about readership only holds true if most writer’s personal blogs have the same readership as a literary magazine, both in size and composition. I don’t think that’s the case. If my personal site gets 2000 hits a month and PANK gets 30,000, then clearly the majority of PANK readers would not have read a piece that was on my blog. Now, I don’t have any pieces on my blog, but that’s my view on the matter.
As it stands, I understand ‘taking down’ a piece after it’s been accepted somewhere so it’s not currently available in more than one place (among other things, Google’s search algorithm dislikes it). But calling that a reprint? Nah.
1) I think the point of online publishing is not to make things available. It’s to feature good writing. I pay $10 a year for my domain name. I can ‘publish’ my recipe for chili there all I want, but it’s not the same thing as having it featured in a publication. The vetting process is what matters to me, having someone believe in the writing other than the writer. The fact that it’s a special little thing that exists only in one place? I could care less. Anything can be available.
2) Your point about readership only holds true if most writer’s personal blogs have the same readership as a literary magazine, both in size and composition. I don’t think that’s the case. If my personal site gets 2000 hits a month and PANK gets 30,000, then clearly the majority of PANK readers would not have read a piece that was on my blog. Now, I don’t have any pieces on my blog, but that’s my view on the matter.
As it stands, I understand ‘taking down’ a piece after it’s been accepted somewhere so it’s not currently available in more than one place (among other things, Google’s search algorithm dislikes it). But calling that a reprint? Nah.
holy shit you were one of them? i remember that.
holy shit you were one of them? i remember that.
I’m especially with you on #1. It’s the jurying aspect that is important to me. Blogs/Fictionaut/whatever… to me, that’s still unpublished. I think, as an editor, that puts me in the minority, though.
I’m especially with you on #1. It’s the jurying aspect that is important to me. Blogs/Fictionaut/whatever… to me, that’s still unpublished. I think, as an editor, that puts me in the minority, though.
True, dat. But the size can work both ways. I think of someplace like Boot Camp, where you’re sure to get a certain number of crits, but at the same time, the venue is dominated by one personality.
True, dat. But the size can work both ways. I think of someplace like Boot Camp, where you’re sure to get a certain number of crits, but at the same time, the venue is dominated by one personality.
The other consideration is that we may already have reached a point where a popular story on Fictionaut can get more attention than it might have in an obscure literary magazine.
is fictionaut competing with ‘obscure lit mags’ then?
The other consideration is that we may already have reached a point where a popular story on Fictionaut can get more attention than it might have in an obscure literary magazine.
is fictionaut competing with ‘obscure lit mags’ then?
Guess while I’m here I might as well take a crack at Adam’s original question: “But if everyone just reposts (slash-republishes) their stories at Fictionaut, won’t I just go there to read everything?” We do hope that Fictionaut might become something of a hub for online short fiction, and the thing about a hub is that it leads into many different directions. That’s why I think what’s been going on in the groups is so exciting. If you saw my HuffPost piece (if I may: http://bit.ly/JLtun), you know I put a lot of faith in our community recommendations, but like Dave and others pointed out, there’s still plenty of demand for editors. The hope is that you might come to Fictionaut, find something you like, and discover a whole new scene/magazine/press it’s part of — and everybody leaves a little happier.
I didn’t mean “the point of online publishing” I mean the point of the unpublished work rule that magazines carry.
Guess while I’m here I might as well take a crack at Adam’s original question: “But if everyone just reposts (slash-republishes) their stories at Fictionaut, won’t I just go there to read everything?” We do hope that Fictionaut might become something of a hub for online short fiction, and the thing about a hub is that it leads into many different directions. That’s why I think what’s been going on in the groups is so exciting. If you saw my HuffPost piece (if I may: http://bit.ly/JLtun), you know I put a lot of faith in our community recommendations, but like Dave and others pointed out, there’s still plenty of demand for editors. The hope is that you might come to Fictionaut, find something you like, and discover a whole new scene/magazine/press it’s part of — and everybody leaves a little happier.
I didn’t mean “the point of online publishing” I mean the point of the unpublished work rule that magazines carry.
No. We’re just offering another way for writers to have their work read, and for readers to find it. I like obscure magazines. Not sure where you see the competition.
No. We’re just offering another way for writers to have their work read, and for readers to find it. I like obscure magazines. Not sure where you see the competition.
I think you are also answering both points purely as a writer, when I was answering them from an editorial point of view.
For point two, obviously it would be to your benefit as a writer to republish your piece in a magazine after having it on a blog. You as a writer will find more readers that way. That should go without saying I think. Indeed, it would be in your interest to republish your story in a hundred magazines. A thousand even.
But as an editor, is it in your interest to publish stories that are already available elsewhere? I think you readership is bound to drop if your magazine is featuring stories you can go read at fictionaut or on someone’s blog.
There are certainly reasons to bend the no republication rule. If you are a magazine like Harper’s, why not reprint writing that was featured in a much smaller mag? Sure. But if you are a magazine whose readership heavily overlaps with a website like fictionaut, it probably is not in your interest to republish stories from there.
I think you are also answering both points purely as a writer, when I was answering them from an editorial point of view.
For point two, obviously it would be to your benefit as a writer to republish your piece in a magazine after having it on a blog. You as a writer will find more readers that way. That should go without saying I think. Indeed, it would be in your interest to republish your story in a hundred magazines. A thousand even.
But as an editor, is it in your interest to publish stories that are already available elsewhere? I think you readership is bound to drop if your magazine is featuring stories you can go read at fictionaut or on someone’s blog.
There are certainly reasons to bend the no republication rule. If you are a magazine like Harper’s, why not reprint writing that was featured in a much smaller mag? Sure. But if you are a magazine whose readership heavily overlaps with a website like fictionaut, it probably is not in your interest to republish stories from there.
lets say an editor considers a story posted at fictionaut to be published and that editor does not accept previously published work. That story is no now longer available to that editor because the writer chose to post it at fictionaut. That’s competition. That’s fictionaut and the editor gunning for that author to send their work to one of two venues. Your value set allows that writer to submit elsewhere, but because the editor’s value set does not, from the editor’s point of view, it’s a competion.
lets say an editor considers a story posted at fictionaut to be published and that editor does not accept previously published work. That story is no now longer available to that editor because the writer chose to post it at fictionaut. That’s competition. That’s fictionaut and the editor gunning for that author to send their work to one of two venues. Your value set allows that writer to submit elsewhere, but because the editor’s value set does not, from the editor’s point of view, it’s a competion.
hmm i don’t understand why you would use Zoetrope for “crits” on your writing?
i mean i understand using it for something like screenplays because (typically) a person does not know other screenwriters and it’s hard to get feedback on something niche like that. it’s also a good place to learn the tacit rules of screenplay writing (i.e. “show don’t tell”)
but “fiction” is not niche and most everyone is already part of a community of writers before joining zoetrope.
i don’t understand why a person would post their work on a “community” site seeking feedback from strangers who have no vested interest in anything other than their own agendas when that person could easily write a nice email asking for feedback from the writers they know and respect.
Zoetrope is about validation. some people feel insecure about what they are doing and turn to strangers.
i don’t get it.
hmm i don’t understand why you would use Zoetrope for “crits” on your writing?
i mean i understand using it for something like screenplays because (typically) a person does not know other screenwriters and it’s hard to get feedback on something niche like that. it’s also a good place to learn the tacit rules of screenplay writing (i.e. “show don’t tell”)
but “fiction” is not niche and most everyone is already part of a community of writers before joining zoetrope.
i don’t understand why a person would post their work on a “community” site seeking feedback from strangers who have no vested interest in anything other than their own agendas when that person could easily write a nice email asking for feedback from the writers they know and respect.
Zoetrope is about validation. some people feel insecure about what they are doing and turn to strangers.
i don’t get it.
This is not to say I don’t agree that the virgin piece rules are sometimes too strict. For example, when I was younger I was runner up in a local newspaper’s fiction contest and they published the piece. It seems to me that there shouldn’t be much of a problem republishing that piece in a literary magazine in another city. There would be likely zero readership overlap.
But part of making a magazine is making some special and unique, right? If you are just republishing work people have already read, that’s an anthology.
This isn’t an insult to fictionaut. It is to their credit that they have so many members and stories receive so many reads, but I would certainly consider a story that was posted in public and read by hundreds of people to be published for the purposes of a “previously unpublished” rule. Others may disagree of course.
But the fact that republishing is useful to the writer because it gives them more eyes doesn’t seem to factor into this discussion either way, I don’t think.
This is not to say I don’t agree that the virgin piece rules are sometimes too strict. For example, when I was younger I was runner up in a local newspaper’s fiction contest and they published the piece. It seems to me that there shouldn’t be much of a problem republishing that piece in a literary magazine in another city. There would be likely zero readership overlap.
But part of making a magazine is making some special and unique, right? If you are just republishing work people have already read, that’s an anthology.
This isn’t an insult to fictionaut. It is to their credit that they have so many members and stories receive so many reads, but I would certainly consider a story that was posted in public and read by hundreds of people to be published for the purposes of a “previously unpublished” rule. Others may disagree of course.
But the fact that republishing is useful to the writer because it gives them more eyes doesn’t seem to factor into this discussion either way, I don’t think.
one other note: regarding a vetting process, doesn’t fictionaut’s fav/recommended thing function in somewhat similar way? if your story is read a lot it is likely being vetted by the users.
one other note: regarding a vetting process, doesn’t fictionaut’s fav/recommended thing function in somewhat similar way? if your story is read a lot it is likely being vetted by the users.
what is with your anger towards “here”? i don’t get it?
Did any person here actually criticize your writing paul? I think anything and everything critical of you posted in the comments section on this site has to do with conduct and personality.
this is not a place for writing feedback. how did you come up with this comparison? white aggression?
expound on the “sycophants” comment. I don’t get that one either.
are you mad because you aren’t part of the “group” or something?
stop looking for kudos and emotional hand jobs and go your own way.
what is with your anger towards “here”? i don’t get it?
Did any person here actually criticize your writing paul? I think anything and everything critical of you posted in the comments section on this site has to do with conduct and personality.
this is not a place for writing feedback. how did you come up with this comparison? white aggression?
expound on the “sycophants” comment. I don’t get that one either.
are you mad because you aren’t part of the “group” or something?
stop looking for kudos and emotional hand jobs and go your own way.
You can consider favs a vetting process but it’s fundamentally not: the stories are still there, whether or not they have a lot of favs. Favs, as currently used, are only noteworthy on a story for the week they come out or if they have so many as to be high up on the best of all time list. In future the functionality might work differently, but no matter what, the piece is readable, available, regardless of fav-status.
I’d argue that I’m answering from the point of view as myself. I pay people for 2 sentences worth of writing. I invest time in my site just like anyone else does. I read submissions, often awful submissions, every day. And I accept reprints. I just don’t care if it’s been around. Would I want a site full of nothing but reprints? Of course not. I ask to know whether it’s a reprint or not. But if it’s good it’s good. That’s what I care about. As an editor. An editor of laughably short stories, sure. But that’s where I’m coming from.
I don’t write very much. I don’t publish anything on my blog. Anything I submit is fresh from my hard drive. I just think the no prev-pubs gets a bit dramatic sometimes.
I fail to see where “everyone has read” = previously published. They are not the same thing. If a big magazine publishes something a smaller magazine has published, everyone has not read the story before. It is essentially new to the readers of that publication (if it’s readership is bigger). I’m not saying they should; I’m saying eyes on your story and publication aren’t the same thing. You can be published and have no readers and not be published and have lots of readers.
A magazine can have an aesthetic and editorial taste and unique reading experience without every piece being virginal.
You can consider favs a vetting process but it’s fundamentally not: the stories are still there, whether or not they have a lot of favs. Favs, as currently used, are only noteworthy on a story for the week they come out or if they have so many as to be high up on the best of all time list. In future the functionality might work differently, but no matter what, the piece is readable, available, regardless of fav-status.
I’d argue that I’m answering from the point of view as myself. I pay people for 2 sentences worth of writing. I invest time in my site just like anyone else does. I read submissions, often awful submissions, every day. And I accept reprints. I just don’t care if it’s been around. Would I want a site full of nothing but reprints? Of course not. I ask to know whether it’s a reprint or not. But if it’s good it’s good. That’s what I care about. As an editor. An editor of laughably short stories, sure. But that’s where I’m coming from.
I don’t write very much. I don’t publish anything on my blog. Anything I submit is fresh from my hard drive. I just think the no prev-pubs gets a bit dramatic sometimes.
I fail to see where “everyone has read” = previously published. They are not the same thing. If a big magazine publishes something a smaller magazine has published, everyone has not read the story before. It is essentially new to the readers of that publication (if it’s readership is bigger). I’m not saying they should; I’m saying eyes on your story and publication aren’t the same thing. You can be published and have no readers and not be published and have lots of readers.
A magazine can have an aesthetic and editorial taste and unique reading experience without every piece being virginal.
When I joined Zoe, I was not already part of a writing group (actually, I’m still not) where I could workshop stuff. Among the strangers, I eventually found folks whose opinions I trusted and, okay, yeah, I guess I’m sort of part of several virtual writing groups now. It’s served the need I had for it better than STWA, Boot Camp, East of the Web, etc. I suppose if I had been single and living in a more populated/intelligent area, I’d have never needed it. But it’s definitely been a valuable place for me to workshop.
Your penultimate line: “some people feel insecure about what they are doing and turn to strangers.” Isn’t that likely to be true of any writing group, at least at first? Is there something inherently wrong with workshopping? (I know a lot of people believe workshopping is more harmful than helpful, but that’s probably another conversation altogether.)
When I joined Zoe, I was not already part of a writing group (actually, I’m still not) where I could workshop stuff. Among the strangers, I eventually found folks whose opinions I trusted and, okay, yeah, I guess I’m sort of part of several virtual writing groups now. It’s served the need I had for it better than STWA, Boot Camp, East of the Web, etc. I suppose if I had been single and living in a more populated/intelligent area, I’d have never needed it. But it’s definitely been a valuable place for me to workshop.
Your penultimate line: “some people feel insecure about what they are doing and turn to strangers.” Isn’t that likely to be true of any writing group, at least at first? Is there something inherently wrong with workshopping? (I know a lot of people believe workshopping is more harmful than helpful, but that’s probably another conversation altogether.)
Isn’t that the editor’s own damned fault, then? Neither the writer nor Jurgen are setting the rules he’s decided to play by.
Isn’t that the editor’s own damned fault, then? Neither the writer nor Jurgen are setting the rules he’s decided to play by.
This seems to presuppose there is no point being the rules?
so there is a thinking going on here that says it’s the editor’s own fault for not adopting this particular view of publishing. but isn’t it an editor’s right to consider what is published and what is not? It’s not a competition as long as all editors adopt fictionaut’s point of view of publishing.
This seems to presuppose there is no point being the rules?
so there is a thinking going on here that says it’s the editor’s own fault for not adopting this particular view of publishing. but isn’t it an editor’s right to consider what is published and what is not? It’s not a competition as long as all editors adopt fictionaut’s point of view of publishing.
this was supposed to be a response to clappers statement
this was supposed to be a response to clappers statement
the editor didn’t decide to play by his own rule. That’s the way it’s always been for him. it’s fictionaut that is playing by new rules.
the editor didn’t decide to play by his own rule. That’s the way it’s always been for him. it’s fictionaut that is playing by new rules.
Actually, it’s the writer’s fault. Every writer knows that most editors don’t want “previously published” materials, and almost every writer should be savvy enough to understand that putting something up on a site like Fictionaut—or on a personal blog—is a form of publishing that may make the piece unavailable.
In the end, Fictionaut doesn’t have a point of view of publishing. Fictionaut is just a place for a writer to upload and share her/his own work. The editors at Fictionaut may have a view, but the nature of the process makes that point of view essentially irrelevant. (No offense, Jurgen. I’m only talking about the way the site and the authors and the readers interact. We all know what we’re getting into.)
Actually, it’s the writer’s fault. Every writer knows that most editors don’t want “previously published” materials, and almost every writer should be savvy enough to understand that putting something up on a site like Fictionaut—or on a personal blog—is a form of publishing that may make the piece unavailable.
In the end, Fictionaut doesn’t have a point of view of publishing. Fictionaut is just a place for a writer to upload and share her/his own work. The editors at Fictionaut may have a view, but the nature of the process makes that point of view essentially irrelevant. (No offense, Jurgen. I’m only talking about the way the site and the authors and the readers interact. We all know what we’re getting into.)
The writer isn’t really part of the argument I’m having. The writer or the writing represent what the competition is for. That the writer is making savvy decisions as to whether to post at fictionaut or submit to a journal supports the argument that fictionaut is competing with journals in certain cases (if fictionaut is competing with journals, then they sort of have to have a point of view of publishing I think). The thing is, everything gets murky because everyone has a different idea as to what ‘published’ means. I’m trying to argue that in particular cases, editors who have a point of view of publishing (that a story posted at fictionaut is a ‘published’ story and who also don’t accept published stories), that fictionaut, whether they want to be or not, is in direct competition with those editors.
The writer isn’t really part of the argument I’m having. The writer or the writing represent what the competition is for. That the writer is making savvy decisions as to whether to post at fictionaut or submit to a journal supports the argument that fictionaut is competing with journals in certain cases (if fictionaut is competing with journals, then they sort of have to have a point of view of publishing I think). The thing is, everything gets murky because everyone has a different idea as to what ‘published’ means. I’m trying to argue that in particular cases, editors who have a point of view of publishing (that a story posted at fictionaut is a ‘published’ story and who also don’t accept published stories), that fictionaut, whether they want to be or not, is in direct competition with those editors.
I’m a huge advocate of Fictionaut. I am a strong supporter of writers getting together by any means, even virtually in this case, and fellowshipping. Sharing ideas and creations and having discussions and getting people excited about writing and inspired to write. I thought that was the purpose of html giant as well.
I’m a huge advocate of Fictionaut. I am a strong supporter of writers getting together by any means, even virtually in this case, and fellowshipping. Sharing ideas and creations and having discussions and getting people excited about writing and inspired to write. I thought that was the purpose of html giant as well.
Of course he decided his rules, Darby. Each lit mag has its own rules about what it does/does not consider previously published, as evidenced by the different opinions stated by various editors in this thread. “That’s the way it’s always been for him” is because he chose his rules to be that way. Sure, Fictionaut may not have been around when he created those rules, but unless his lit mag is one of the earlier ones on the ‘net, blogs existed, Zoetrope existed, various EZBoard workshops existed, and he made his rules (hopefully) knowing of the existence of those. He chose to exclude them, and now there’s another one that just happens to have the potential to be bigger than those.
All of which is pretty much navel-gazing anyway, no? Have you, for example, noticed a decrease in submissions to Abjective since Fictionaut came into being? If not, then is it really a problem? You can say that, “Well, now, people will post on F’naut instead of subbing to Abjective.” Maybe so, but I’d argue that that the folks who are likely to dismiss a market that doesn’t accept stuff they posted first on F’naut likely would have posted it to their blogs or the equivalent before F’naut came around. I know we’ve seen this same argument brought up before F’naut existed. Editors make choices about their guidelines and writers make choices about where they’ll sub, partially based on those guidelines. Ever it has been, ever it shall be.
Of course he decided his rules, Darby. Each lit mag has its own rules about what it does/does not consider previously published, as evidenced by the different opinions stated by various editors in this thread. “That’s the way it’s always been for him” is because he chose his rules to be that way. Sure, Fictionaut may not have been around when he created those rules, but unless his lit mag is one of the earlier ones on the ‘net, blogs existed, Zoetrope existed, various EZBoard workshops existed, and he made his rules (hopefully) knowing of the existence of those. He chose to exclude them, and now there’s another one that just happens to have the potential to be bigger than those.
All of which is pretty much navel-gazing anyway, no? Have you, for example, noticed a decrease in submissions to Abjective since Fictionaut came into being? If not, then is it really a problem? You can say that, “Well, now, people will post on F’naut instead of subbing to Abjective.” Maybe so, but I’d argue that that the folks who are likely to dismiss a market that doesn’t accept stuff they posted first on F’naut likely would have posted it to their blogs or the equivalent before F’naut came around. I know we’ve seen this same argument brought up before F’naut existed. Editors make choices about their guidelines and writers make choices about where they’ll sub, partially based on those guidelines. Ever it has been, ever it shall be.
Zoetrope is about 10% a writer’s workshop. The rest of the time it’s an old-school version of HTMLGIANT. There are a number of members of Zoetrope who feel it is the end all and be all of the entire literary world, as well as there are people on this site who feel that about it. That’s why I speak of narrow minds. I don’t think someone like Jereme Dean is any position to take me to task for misconduct or personality flaws. Sorry.
Zoetrope is about 10% a writer’s workshop. The rest of the time it’s an old-school version of HTMLGIANT. There are a number of members of Zoetrope who feel it is the end all and be all of the entire literary world, as well as there are people on this site who feel that about it. That’s why I speak of narrow minds. I don’t think someone like Jereme Dean is any position to take me to task for misconduct or personality flaws. Sorry.
I think the major difference between HTMLGiant and most other literary-oriented sites is that Giant has no real, stated mission. The editors could all decide to take a vacation for six months and nobody could say they’d broken any sort of pact or promise. At once maddening and intriguing, this place falls short of what many of us hoped it would be. The simple answer is we can found our own news projects. I’ve got one in the pipe for next year. Won’t really be competing with Giant since we won’t be doing the same kind of thing. I would be interested to see a few more HTMLGiants pop up, however, just for some variety of editorial voice. I’d even be willing to help finance and do some mechanics for such a few places. I like having passive roles in things.
I think the major difference between HTMLGiant and most other literary-oriented sites is that Giant has no real, stated mission. The editors could all decide to take a vacation for six months and nobody could say they’d broken any sort of pact or promise. At once maddening and intriguing, this place falls short of what many of us hoped it would be. The simple answer is we can found our own news projects. I’ve got one in the pipe for next year. Won’t really be competing with Giant since we won’t be doing the same kind of thing. I would be interested to see a few more HTMLGiants pop up, however, just for some variety of editorial voice. I’d even be willing to help finance and do some mechanics for such a few places. I like having passive roles in things.
Simple solution is for the writer to declare all workshopping and public internet posting in their submission.
Simple solution is for the writer to declare all workshopping and public internet posting in their submission.
I don’t think you can lump F’naut together with personal blogs or even zoetrope when it comes to readership and availability. Personal blogs don’t have the kind of readership F’naut has (and is continually growing), and zoetrope is more member-insulated and purely for workshop. People don’t confuse zoetrope with a magazine to casually read fiction at (maybe some do, but that’s not the intention). Zoetrope gives nothing to nonmembers. I think F’Naut crosses an important line that these others don’t.
This isn’t personal, I’m playing out this argument to see if there is a truth to expose somewhere, as is my habit. I have no set opinion. I have no grudge against F’naut. I don’t feel in competition with it w/r/t abjective. It’s just that the F’naut model is vague and I’m trying to understand it more and approach it from different angles, asking questions.
So far, I see F’naut as a very different animal with no real analogy for it, something between a magazine and a workshop and I don’t think the implications of that blur have really been thought about much, at least not that I’ve seen, though I don’t move in many circles. But it seems to me that if an entity, even vaguely, calls itself a magazine and ‘publishes’ work, than that entity affects the greater market around it, whether that is their intention or not.
and now there’s another one that just happens to have the potential to be bigger than those.
That’s an incredibly important thing you’re saying, because the potential bigness of F’naut is what might push it into the realm of being a competitor. F’Naut is gaining membership by the minute. If the readership of F’naut increases so much, if the feedback generated on everything becomes too much to pass on for writers, then doesn’t the energy of surrounding litmags get sacrificed at some point? Jurgen mentioned the hub analogy. But does this hub have the potential of becoming so big that it sucks the life out of its branches?
What is a lit mag? I mean, why is anyone still interested in the idea of it if F’Naut exists? If there is a giant community-driven magazine with thousands (I’m assuming a potential future here) of readers all posting anything they want and getting encouragement and getting valuable feedback on everything, more than they could ever want, and anything can be easily found and read and linked to by any nonmember, doesn’t that pose a threat to smaller lit mags? Because the alternative the lit mag is offering is to be subject to a long response time and an impersonal editorial process in the hopes of being read by hardly anyone.
F’Naut is such a radical thing, I wish there was more actual discussion about its implications in the market, and how other lit mags may have to evolve in order to compete with it.
Okay, I wrote all of the above and stopped and thought about everything for about an hour and here is my thinking of what fictionaut is, or the closest thing to a model. It is firstly a magazine (if only because magazines bear more weight on a surrounding market than a workshop does, so to nonmembers, fictionaut’s magazineness is more important than its workshopness), with the recommended stories being its main product (product = thing most available to nonmembers). However, the editorial process that determines the product is not driven by an editorial staff (actually, it may partly be, it isn’t completely clear who makes final decisions on recommended stories, but it does mention that stories that are favorited the most have more of a chance), but is sourced to the community, or the community is atleast acting as first-line screeners. Within that editorial process, stories go through a sub-process that functions like a workshop. Success in the workshop process influences success in the editorial process. And then there are tangential processes that make up groups and forums that members can do what they want with, but have no bearing on the real product.
I think it has to be considered as a magazine because of what it delivers to nonmembers and because its readership is so high.
Does anyone see it differently than this?
I don’t think you can lump F’naut together with personal blogs or even zoetrope when it comes to readership and availability. Personal blogs don’t have the kind of readership F’naut has (and is continually growing), and zoetrope is more member-insulated and purely for workshop. People don’t confuse zoetrope with a magazine to casually read fiction at (maybe some do, but that’s not the intention). Zoetrope gives nothing to nonmembers. I think F’Naut crosses an important line that these others don’t.
This isn’t personal, I’m playing out this argument to see if there is a truth to expose somewhere, as is my habit. I have no set opinion. I have no grudge against F’naut. I don’t feel in competition with it w/r/t abjective. It’s just that the F’naut model is vague and I’m trying to understand it more and approach it from different angles, asking questions.
So far, I see F’naut as a very different animal with no real analogy for it, something between a magazine and a workshop and I don’t think the implications of that blur have really been thought about much, at least not that I’ve seen, though I don’t move in many circles. But it seems to me that if an entity, even vaguely, calls itself a magazine and ‘publishes’ work, than that entity affects the greater market around it, whether that is their intention or not.
and now there’s another one that just happens to have the potential to be bigger than those.
That’s an incredibly important thing you’re saying, because the potential bigness of F’naut is what might push it into the realm of being a competitor. F’Naut is gaining membership by the minute. If the readership of F’naut increases so much, if the feedback generated on everything becomes too much to pass on for writers, then doesn’t the energy of surrounding litmags get sacrificed at some point? Jurgen mentioned the hub analogy. But does this hub have the potential of becoming so big that it sucks the life out of its branches?
What is a lit mag? I mean, why is anyone still interested in the idea of it if F’Naut exists? If there is a giant community-driven magazine with thousands (I’m assuming a potential future here) of readers all posting anything they want and getting encouragement and getting valuable feedback on everything, more than they could ever want, and anything can be easily found and read and linked to by any nonmember, doesn’t that pose a threat to smaller lit mags? Because the alternative the lit mag is offering is to be subject to a long response time and an impersonal editorial process in the hopes of being read by hardly anyone.
F’Naut is such a radical thing, I wish there was more actual discussion about its implications in the market, and how other lit mags may have to evolve in order to compete with it.
Okay, I wrote all of the above and stopped and thought about everything for about an hour and here is my thinking of what fictionaut is, or the closest thing to a model. It is firstly a magazine (if only because magazines bear more weight on a surrounding market than a workshop does, so to nonmembers, fictionaut’s magazineness is more important than its workshopness), with the recommended stories being its main product (product = thing most available to nonmembers). However, the editorial process that determines the product is not driven by an editorial staff (actually, it may partly be, it isn’t completely clear who makes final decisions on recommended stories, but it does mention that stories that are favorited the most have more of a chance), but is sourced to the community, or the community is atleast acting as first-line screeners. Within that editorial process, stories go through a sub-process that functions like a workshop. Success in the workshop process influences success in the editorial process. And then there are tangential processes that make up groups and forums that members can do what they want with, but have no bearing on the real product.
I think it has to be considered as a magazine because of what it delivers to nonmembers and because its readership is so high.
Does anyone see it differently than this?
yep yep
yep yep
Yes, on a macro scale, creating that hub will turn as many people on to Everyday Genius as it will keep people from going there since they read the cross-posting at Fictionaut.
Yes, on a macro scale, creating that hub will turn as many people on to Everyday Genius as it will keep people from going there since they read the cross-posting at Fictionaut.
“Simple solution is for the writer to declare all workshopping and public internet posting in their submission.”
Ha, good luck with that.
“Simple solution is for the writer to declare all workshopping and public internet posting in their submission.”
Ha, good luck with that.
i disagree. if you proclaim yourself as “the internet literature blog of the future” the reader has every right to expect that from the contributors and from the site as a whole. one, that this is a place that doesn’t exist in the present, that they are gonna be doing things in a way that isn’t being done right now. do they deliver? that’s not really the question. the question is, does the reader have a reasonable expectation that this is a place that promotes writerly fellowship and sharing ideas on writing and getting people interested and excited about it. i say yes. so in that sense im wondering why would people (im not saying htmlgiant folks have) criticize a place that attempts the same mission, just because the approach is different. i think everyone’s hearts are in the same place and thats a good thing.
i disagree. if you proclaim yourself as “the internet literature blog of the future” the reader has every right to expect that from the contributors and from the site as a whole. one, that this is a place that doesn’t exist in the present, that they are gonna be doing things in a way that isn’t being done right now. do they deliver? that’s not really the question. the question is, does the reader have a reasonable expectation that this is a place that promotes writerly fellowship and sharing ideas on writing and getting people interested and excited about it. i say yes. so in that sense im wondering why would people (im not saying htmlgiant folks have) criticize a place that attempts the same mission, just because the approach is different. i think everyone’s hearts are in the same place and thats a good thing.
the only time i don’t like getting patted on the back is when someone is trying to fuck me in the ass
i have posted/published a story on fictionaut.
adam robinson, as you will not meet my ping pong challenge, you have forced my hand to step things up this way. if the wartish piece is never published outside fictionaut, i will never become rich ot find fame/infamy.
the only time i don’t like getting patted on the back is when someone is trying to fuck me in the ass
i have posted/published a story on fictionaut.
adam robinson, as you will not meet my ping pong challenge, you have forced my hand to step things up this way. if the wartish piece is never published outside fictionaut, i will never become rich ot find fame/infamy.
ot = or
tool = me
ot = or
tool = me
frankly, i don’t want other htmlgiant-ish sites to pop up and offer some variety of editorial voice because there’s too damn much good stuff to read already, and i need a thousand-hour days to do everything and read everything i want to! all the coffee in the world still can’t help me keep up. not to say i don’t like variety and a world of options, but all the options are kicking my ass. plus, i love this site. why kick this lovely inter-lady out of bed?
frankly, i don’t want other htmlgiant-ish sites to pop up and offer some variety of editorial voice because there’s too damn much good stuff to read already, and i need a thousand-hour days to do everything and read everything i want to! all the coffee in the world still can’t help me keep up. not to say i don’t like variety and a world of options, but all the options are kicking my ass. plus, i love this site. why kick this lovely inter-lady out of bed?
if you can get private feedback, an online workshop, go for it – that can help a lot, especially if you respect the people commenting
i wouldn’t put any of my short stories on my blog unless they were links to already published shorts, but i DO PUT excerpts from my novels, as a quick reference for agents and/or presses, and other fans/peers – it has helped for sure, as i’ve gotten manuscript requests from agents from that – i wouldn’t consider THAT published
i also saw the bonus of FN as this – when you put up PREVIOUSLY published stories there, much like your blogs, people can read the work, and then go to the place that published your work to read more writing of that same caliber or slant – it’s a way to promote your work but also a way to promote the places where you published – i don’t see a problem with it – it’s also a really educated, and informed group, so you know that the exposure you get there won’t be wasted – you could turn people on to your work, or editors could see your work there and ask you to contribute, etc.
it’s all good to me – but i would not post up original work there, draft or finished, unless it was in a private forum – which they HAVE now
peace,
richard
if you can get private feedback, an online workshop, go for it – that can help a lot, especially if you respect the people commenting
i wouldn’t put any of my short stories on my blog unless they were links to already published shorts, but i DO PUT excerpts from my novels, as a quick reference for agents and/or presses, and other fans/peers – it has helped for sure, as i’ve gotten manuscript requests from agents from that – i wouldn’t consider THAT published
i also saw the bonus of FN as this – when you put up PREVIOUSLY published stories there, much like your blogs, people can read the work, and then go to the place that published your work to read more writing of that same caliber or slant – it’s a way to promote your work but also a way to promote the places where you published – i don’t see a problem with it – it’s also a really educated, and informed group, so you know that the exposure you get there won’t be wasted – you could turn people on to your work, or editors could see your work there and ask you to contribute, etc.
it’s all good to me – but i would not post up original work there, draft or finished, unless it was in a private forum – which they HAVE now
peace,
richard
dave e—
” holy shit you were one of them? i remember that.”
Yup.
I was much less of a nice person back then.
Actually, I’m still kind of an asshole…
dave e—
” holy shit you were one of them? i remember that.”
Yup.
I was much less of a nice person back then.
Actually, I’m still kind of an asshole…
At this point in time, Darby, I think you’re overestimating F’naut’s readership. Of the currently listed pieces in “Recommended Stories,” Roxane’s “Problems Pretty Girls With Pretty Faces Face” has the most views, with 144. The lowest in the “Recommended” has had 20. The most read story of all time on F’naut is Kim Chinquee’s “I Had Time to Kill” (429 reads). I’d argue that many personal blogs have that level of readership, and that a ton of online lit mags have readerships far higher than that. As an example, the story from the latest issue of SLQ (live since 9/24) with the least visits has had 68 visits so far, and the highest has had 523.
Is F’naut likely, from this point forward, to grow faster than SLQ and eclipse the kind of numbers we generate? Probably so. But I suspect that, as F’naut grows, the lit mags that are represented there will get a bump in views, too (but it may take a while; we currently get more clicks from HTMLGiant than we do from F’naut, and the only place we’re typically linked here is from my comments).
(Frankly, that IS one thing that F’naut could do better: making it easier to link back to the sites that originally published works being posted there. Currently, I think a reader of a story has to go google the name of the publication listed, and then click through from there.)
At this point in time, Darby, I think you’re overestimating F’naut’s readership. Of the currently listed pieces in “Recommended Stories,” Roxane’s “Problems Pretty Girls With Pretty Faces Face” has the most views, with 144. The lowest in the “Recommended” has had 20. The most read story of all time on F’naut is Kim Chinquee’s “I Had Time to Kill” (429 reads). I’d argue that many personal blogs have that level of readership, and that a ton of online lit mags have readerships far higher than that. As an example, the story from the latest issue of SLQ (live since 9/24) with the least visits has had 68 visits so far, and the highest has had 523.
Is F’naut likely, from this point forward, to grow faster than SLQ and eclipse the kind of numbers we generate? Probably so. But I suspect that, as F’naut grows, the lit mags that are represented there will get a bump in views, too (but it may take a while; we currently get more clicks from HTMLGiant than we do from F’naut, and the only place we’re typically linked here is from my comments).
(Frankly, that IS one thing that F’naut could do better: making it easier to link back to the sites that originally published works being posted there. Currently, I think a reader of a story has to go google the name of the publication listed, and then click through from there.)
Hey Ben, thanks for the response. I don’t disagree with a lot of what you are saying but I guess I think there are two separate issues. The first is, is the “zero tolerance” policy for previously published work too strict at most magazines? I think I’d probably agree with you on this.
The second issue is, given a zero tolerance policy, should being published on a blog or ficioonaut (or any other type of self-publishing) count as publication?
On the second issue I’m saying yes, it should. Being read by 500 people on Fictionaut seems like more of a publication that being in some small town poetry zine read by 20 people to me. I don’t see why the former would get to be the exception merely because it is self-published. The only point I really see in favor of not counting it as publication is that self-publication can theoretically be removed (taken down from the website in question). Then again, you probably could get your piece taken down from a small lit mag’s website as well if you asked.
Hey Ben, thanks for the response. I don’t disagree with a lot of what you are saying but I guess I think there are two separate issues. The first is, is the “zero tolerance” policy for previously published work too strict at most magazines? I think I’d probably agree with you on this.
The second issue is, given a zero tolerance policy, should being published on a blog or ficioonaut (or any other type of self-publishing) count as publication?
On the second issue I’m saying yes, it should. Being read by 500 people on Fictionaut seems like more of a publication that being in some small town poetry zine read by 20 people to me. I don’t see why the former would get to be the exception merely because it is self-published. The only point I really see in favor of not counting it as publication is that self-publication can theoretically be removed (taken down from the website in question). Then again, you probably could get your piece taken down from a small lit mag’s website as well if you asked.
No joke! We’ve only got, like, 3 things we ask writers to do, and we’re lucky if a writer does 2 of them.
No joke! We’ve only got, like, 3 things we ask writers to do, and we’re lucky if a writer does 2 of them.
Yeah, I’d pretty much agree with that. The editor chooses the guidelines and how hard they’re going to stick to them. I’m pretty flexible on that point. If a story was previously published in a college journal with a circulation of, like, 70 copies, does that count? I don’t think so. A blog with 70 readers? I also don’t think so. Fictionaut? Probably not, as I’m sure I have hundreds of readers who either don’t like F’naut or don’t know about it.
What a publisher offers a writer isn’t the printing – any douchebag with a laser printer or a blog can do that. The vetting process, sure, but also the readership and promotion the staff give to the magazine. The editors push the magazine and gathers readers who are attracted to that magazine’s reputation. That consistency is what readers are attracted to.
Yeah, I’d pretty much agree with that. The editor chooses the guidelines and how hard they’re going to stick to them. I’m pretty flexible on that point. If a story was previously published in a college journal with a circulation of, like, 70 copies, does that count? I don’t think so. A blog with 70 readers? I also don’t think so. Fictionaut? Probably not, as I’m sure I have hundreds of readers who either don’t like F’naut or don’t know about it.
What a publisher offers a writer isn’t the printing – any douchebag with a laser printer or a blog can do that. The vetting process, sure, but also the readership and promotion the staff give to the magazine. The editors push the magazine and gathers readers who are attracted to that magazine’s reputation. That consistency is what readers are attracted to.
Seriously. Last night, I really… had a moment. We have these instructions we send out with galleys. We have those instructions for a reason, not to be annoying but because we’re busy and its easier to spot corrections when they are labeled clearly. You wouldn’t believe how wildly these instructions are ignored. Actually, I think you would. I won’t even get started on the instructions writers ignore from our acceptance e-mail, let alone our writer guidelines which clearly, we developed to further enjoy the sound of our own voices.
Seriously. Last night, I really… had a moment. We have these instructions we send out with galleys. We have those instructions for a reason, not to be annoying but because we’re busy and its easier to spot corrections when they are labeled clearly. You wouldn’t believe how wildly these instructions are ignored. Actually, I think you would. I won’t even get started on the instructions writers ignore from our acceptance e-mail, let alone our writer guidelines which clearly, we developed to further enjoy the sound of our own voices.