November 16th, 2009 / 5:49 pm
Snippets
Snippets
Blake Butler—
For Amber: Has anyone had experiences as a student of the online workshops at Zoetrope or Gotham Writers Workshop? Or any other online writing seminar? Would you recommend, not recommend, etc.?
Thanks, Blake.
Thanks, Blake.
I do not recommend Zoetrope. I spent a lot of time there and found it unhelpful
I do not recommend Zoetrope. I spent a lot of time there and found it unhelpful
Recommend for someone like you or a starting out writer?
Recommend for someone like you or a starting out writer?
There should be an HTML Giant writing workshop. Half the people would spend all their time talking about how lame workshops are and the other half would spend all their time endlessly deconstructing everything. I think it would be fun. This does not answer your question but I have not participated in either workshop. I do find Zoetrope largely bewildering. The interface makes me feel quite crazy.
A newer writer.
There should be an HTML Giant writing workshop. Half the people would spend all their time talking about how lame workshops are and the other half would spend all their time endlessly deconstructing everything. I think it would be fun. This does not answer your question but I have not participated in either workshop. I do find Zoetrope largely bewildering. The interface makes me feel quite crazy.
A newer writer.
Does Zoetrope have workshops now? The virtual studio thing (which I briefly used in undergrad) is an interesting idea, where you post a story but have to read and comment on several other people’s before anyone will read yours. And so on. This way you get a couple reads.
However, a workshop is only as good as your “classmates” and I don’t think anyone interested in the type of writing people like on htmlgiant would get much out of the group on Zoetrope.
Does Zoetrope have workshops now? The virtual studio thing (which I briefly used in undergrad) is an interesting idea, where you post a story but have to read and comment on several other people’s before anyone will read yours. And so on. This way you get a couple reads.
However, a workshop is only as good as your “classmates” and I don’t think anyone interested in the type of writing people like on htmlgiant would get much out of the group on Zoetrope.
i spent five years in the zoetrope workshop and its tangents, starting with knowing nothing, so it was useful, I was a newer writer. This was in the heyday of beginning literary magazines too, before duotrope, so it opened me up to all that. it served as a duotrope at the time, learning where everyone was getting published, that there were all these places to get published in. i learned a lot about publishing industry and things from the forums there. I made friends and enemies because I’m argumentative. I got use from it with my writing, but only just barely I think. There was definitely a point at which it became no longer useful and I think began to hinder my progress a bit, as I felt like there was this ulterior goal of writing to gain credibility within zoetrope and not outside it. i think fictionaut shares a similar danger there, but it’s as much on the shoulder’s of a writer’s mentality as the workshop’s I think. I would recommend zoetrope to a particular kind of novice writer with the caveat of don’t become dependent on it.
i spent five years in the zoetrope workshop and its tangents, starting with knowing nothing, so it was useful, I was a newer writer. This was in the heyday of beginning literary magazines too, before duotrope, so it opened me up to all that. it served as a duotrope at the time, learning where everyone was getting published, that there were all these places to get published in. i learned a lot about publishing industry and things from the forums there. I made friends and enemies because I’m argumentative. I got use from it with my writing, but only just barely I think. There was definitely a point at which it became no longer useful and I think began to hinder my progress a bit, as I felt like there was this ulterior goal of writing to gain credibility within zoetrope and not outside it. i think fictionaut shares a similar danger there, but it’s as much on the shoulder’s of a writer’s mentality as the workshop’s I think. I would recommend zoetrope to a particular kind of novice writer with the caveat of don’t become dependent on it.
zoetrope runs their workshops through gotham
zoetrope runs their workshops through gotham
yes, the main boards at the zoetrope virtual studio are mostly a hot mess, but a lot of good stuff happens there in private (although also much less accessible) spaces.
yes, the main boards at the zoetrope virtual studio are mostly a hot mess, but a lot of good stuff happens there in private (although also much less accessible) spaces.
The impression I’ve gotten of Gotham and the workshops Zoetrope: All Story offers run through Gotham, w/o ever having participated in either, is they’re very factory-like.
The impression I’ve gotten of Gotham and the workshops Zoetrope: All Story offers run through Gotham, w/o ever having participated in either, is they’re very factory-like.
not a bad thing, necessarily
not a bad thing, necessarily
How come?
How come?
I’m curious about the last part of this. Why? Is there not a lot of experimental writing going on there? I know for me in past workshops, some great and some not so great, the other writers often were doing straight up folksy realism, and so we were sort of fundamentally uninterested in what each other was doing. I didn’t think Zoetrope would be like that, though…
I’m curious about the last part of this. Why? Is there not a lot of experimental writing going on there? I know for me in past workshops, some great and some not so great, the other writers often were doing straight up folksy realism, and so we were sort of fundamentally uninterested in what each other was doing. I didn’t think Zoetrope would be like that, though…
I taught online fiction classes at Gotham for a number of years, Blake. I always preached language over story just as I do in person. It’s really up to the instructor what the approach will be be it online or in person. One thing you get regardless are deadlines twice during a ten-week course which is never a bad thing. I always enjoyed teaching these classes and getting to know the people who signed up for them. Each week there was a lecture posted on one of the conventions and also a discussion board for students to respond to a weekly question posed by the instructor and also weekly writing assignments which, for me, made for a lot of reading to do for not a lot of pay. So yeah, Amber, give it a shot, it’s not terribly expensive and if nothing else it will demand of you that you become habitual with your pencil.
I taught online fiction classes at Gotham for a number of years, Blake. I always preached language over story just as I do in person. It’s really up to the instructor what the approach will be be it online or in person. One thing you get regardless are deadlines twice during a ten-week course which is never a bad thing. I always enjoyed teaching these classes and getting to know the people who signed up for them. Each week there was a lecture posted on one of the conventions and also a discussion board for students to respond to a weekly question posed by the instructor and also weekly writing assignments which, for me, made for a lot of reading to do for not a lot of pay. So yeah, Amber, give it a shot, it’s not terribly expensive and if nothing else it will demand of you that you become habitual with your pencil.
My comment’s not specific to any workshop, but I’ll make a case for why Zoetrope etc might be useful despite the quality of the feedback you receive. The most useful thing about workshops for me has usually been the experience of commenting on other people’s work. The feedback I’ve received has been useful, but I think in the long run I’ve learned more about my own writing by developing a way of reading particular to the workshop. Not always, but I think the more I got used to thinking and writing about others writers’ work in a particular way the more I began to figure out how I thought about my own writing. That’s not to say that I haven’t gotten useful feedback from workshops, but making a case that perhaps places like Zoetrope or Gotham can be useful as a way of getting experience as a reader with the knowledge that not all the feedback you’re going to get is going to be useful. That’s the case with most workshops, and maybe you could duplicate this through reading published writing, but I think it’s worth trying these places out and seeing if they work for you.
My comment’s not specific to any workshop, but I’ll make a case for why Zoetrope etc might be useful despite the quality of the feedback you receive. The most useful thing about workshops for me has usually been the experience of commenting on other people’s work. The feedback I’ve received has been useful, but I think in the long run I’ve learned more about my own writing by developing a way of reading particular to the workshop. Not always, but I think the more I got used to thinking and writing about others writers’ work in a particular way the more I began to figure out how I thought about my own writing. That’s not to say that I haven’t gotten useful feedback from workshops, but making a case that perhaps places like Zoetrope or Gotham can be useful as a way of getting experience as a reader with the knowledge that not all the feedback you’re going to get is going to be useful. That’s the case with most workshops, and maybe you could duplicate this through reading published writing, but I think it’s worth trying these places out and seeing if they work for you.
It seemed to be pretty straight-laced realist fiction when I was there. But that must have been 6 or 7 years ago, so don’t take my word for it if others disagree.
It seemed to be pretty straight-laced realist fiction when I was there. But that must have been 6 or 7 years ago, so don’t take my word for it if others disagree.
i took an online poetry workshop with kim addonizio (google her and then email) and it was pretty decent, especially the comments from kim herself.
i took an online poetry workshop with kim addonizio (google her and then email) and it was pretty decent, especially the comments from kim herself.
Matt, this is something I try and impart to my students all the time. The tendency is to look at the workshop as a quid pro quo- you pay attention to me, and in return I pay attention to you. But I try and stress to my students that they are likely to learn more about editing, revision, and reading with a precise eye, when they are using somebody else’s work as the training ground.
Also, yes, a way of “reading the worskhop” is a good way to put it. Basically, a workshop guarantees you one thing- a group of reasonably intelligent, attentive strangers will do their level best to make heads or tails of whatever you show them. Each individual reaction will be filtered through what you think of that person–if the dumbest guy in workshop doesn’t get your sly-est allusion, that’s not telling you much. But if the three people you regard as the most talented writers and critics in the room all come back scratching their heads, then maybe its time for the writer to recalibrate. A lot of my best memories of workshops I’ve taken involve my sheer astonishment at what people thought my work was about–what stood out to them that I didn’t even know was there, and what I worked so hard to put in that they just shrugged off. I wasn’t obliged to re-write just to please them, but their aggregated (mis)understandings gave me incredibly valuable data.
Matt, this is something I try and impart to my students all the time. The tendency is to look at the workshop as a quid pro quo- you pay attention to me, and in return I pay attention to you. But I try and stress to my students that they are likely to learn more about editing, revision, and reading with a precise eye, when they are using somebody else’s work as the training ground.
Also, yes, a way of “reading the worskhop” is a good way to put it. Basically, a workshop guarantees you one thing- a group of reasonably intelligent, attentive strangers will do their level best to make heads or tails of whatever you show them. Each individual reaction will be filtered through what you think of that person–if the dumbest guy in workshop doesn’t get your sly-est allusion, that’s not telling you much. But if the three people you regard as the most talented writers and critics in the room all come back scratching their heads, then maybe its time for the writer to recalibrate. A lot of my best memories of workshops I’ve taken involve my sheer astonishment at what people thought my work was about–what stood out to them that I didn’t even know was there, and what I worked so hard to put in that they just shrugged off. I wasn’t obliged to re-write just to please them, but their aggregated (mis)understandings gave me incredibly valuable data.
I think this aspect alone has decided me on doing one of these workshops for sure. This: “if the three people you regard as the most talented writers and critics in the room all come back scratching their heads, then maybe its time for the writer to recalibrate,” this is dead on. It’s been incredibly valuable in past workshops to find out that a story I thought was brilliant was, in fact, a shoulder-shrugger for everyone else–and how people did read it was just so far from the way I thought of it. Learning to look at others’ work, and seeing how they may read yours–it’s so valuable and so much better than continually writing in a vacuum.
I think this aspect alone has decided me on doing one of these workshops for sure. This: “if the three people you regard as the most talented writers and critics in the room all come back scratching their heads, then maybe its time for the writer to recalibrate,” this is dead on. It’s been incredibly valuable in past workshops to find out that a story I thought was brilliant was, in fact, a shoulder-shrugger for everyone else–and how people did read it was just so far from the way I thought of it. Learning to look at others’ work, and seeing how they may read yours–it’s so valuable and so much better than continually writing in a vacuum.
Amber, et al
I am a moderator at the Cult workshop, over at http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net and for $40 a year you have access to this part of the site. There are a lot of hacks, for sure, but the core group is pretty solid. We are also doing an anthology with Chuck Palahniuk right now, he reads six stories a month, out of about 18 nominated each month, and this collection will be published next year, I believe. You still have Nov and Dec to try and get in. Come on over and check it out, I’m wickerkat there, or drop me a line at wickerkat@aol.com and I’ll answer any questions you have.
I agree with the comments that you learn a lot by commenting and critiquing other work, as well as getting some interesting feedback from a variety of authors with different styles.
Hope this helps.
Peace,
Richard
Amber, et al
I am a moderator at the Cult workshop, over at http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net and for $40 a year you have access to this part of the site. There are a lot of hacks, for sure, but the core group is pretty solid. We are also doing an anthology with Chuck Palahniuk right now, he reads six stories a month, out of about 18 nominated each month, and this collection will be published next year, I believe. You still have Nov and Dec to try and get in. Come on over and check it out, I’m wickerkat there, or drop me a line at wickerkat@aol.com and I’ll answer any questions you have.
I agree with the comments that you learn a lot by commenting and critiquing other work, as well as getting some interesting feedback from a variety of authors with different styles.
Hope this helps.
Peace,
Richard
A lot of the short short/flash fiction heavy hitters (probably the most “experimental” folks on zoe) are still members, but less active than they once were, or else confined solely to private offices (zoetrope lets each member set up their own invitation-only space and that’s where a lot of the more interesting writing and also socializing happens).
The “main boards,” where you review five stories, post one, etc tend to get you a lot of reviews from new members, and a lot of that feedback is lazy, bizarre, obnoxious, full of unearned pretention, etc, but can be somewhat interesting just to see how folks read things. “Main board” folks are probably more realist, but probably also a lot of folks from the… er, less language-conscious end of the genre spectrum.
A lot of the short short/flash fiction heavy hitters (probably the most “experimental” folks on zoe) are still members, but less active than they once were, or else confined solely to private offices (zoetrope lets each member set up their own invitation-only space and that’s where a lot of the more interesting writing and also socializing happens).
The “main boards,” where you review five stories, post one, etc tend to get you a lot of reviews from new members, and a lot of that feedback is lazy, bizarre, obnoxious, full of unearned pretention, etc, but can be somewhat interesting just to see how folks read things. “Main board” folks are probably more realist, but probably also a lot of folks from the… er, less language-conscious end of the genre spectrum.
yes
yes
It sure is a great offer, Rich. And I agree with your comment: the core group is pretty solid. Who knows — we may have the next Hemingway as a member right now! The opportunities it has given to young, burgeoning writers — and hacks alike! — who are just beginning to spread their writerly wings has been invaluable, and if you join within the next 30 minutes we’ll throw in a free copy of Fight Club as well as Chuck’s latest literary opus Pigmy. So join today. With an offer like that, you’d have to be as crazy as Raskolnikov to pass it up.
*This has been a paid endorsement provided by chuckpalahniuk.net which in no way is affiliated with the Oregonian writer of the same name save for the approved use of his name and image. Thank you.
It sure is a great offer, Rich. And I agree with your comment: the core group is pretty solid. Who knows — we may have the next Hemingway as a member right now! The opportunities it has given to young, burgeoning writers — and hacks alike! — who are just beginning to spread their writerly wings has been invaluable, and if you join within the next 30 minutes we’ll throw in a free copy of Fight Club as well as Chuck’s latest literary opus Pigmy. So join today. With an offer like that, you’d have to be as crazy as Raskolnikov to pass it up.
*This has been a paid endorsement provided by chuckpalahniuk.net which in no way is affiliated with the Oregonian writer of the same name save for the approved use of his name and image. Thank you.
$40 when other sites do the same thing for free?
$40 when other sites do the same thing for free?
huh?
huh?
Yeah. While I don’t care for Zoe, it is free. Same for STWA.net (which I like). And about 100 others.
I didn’t know The Cult was charging now (I used to log in to their message board now and again)
Yeah. While I don’t care for Zoe, it is free. Same for STWA.net (which I like). And about 100 others.
I didn’t know The Cult was charging now (I used to log in to their message board now and again)
Too much noise in the signal. It is a riot, a mob scene. Divided into smaller riots and mob scenes.
To be honest, long ago I was banned (along with several other writers) for getting on the nerves of the admin. The newer admins are better people, but the site is still not a great place.
Too much noise in the signal. It is a riot, a mob scene. Divided into smaller riots and mob scenes.
To be honest, long ago I was banned (along with several other writers) for getting on the nerves of the admin. The newer admins are better people, but the site is still not a great place.
I should add that I was readmitted after the old admin left and do not hold a grudge. I just think it is too many people pulling in different directions
I should add that I was readmitted after the old admin left and do not hold a grudge. I just think it is too many people pulling in different directions
If you really want to do one, I suggest STWA.net
If you really want to do one, I suggest STWA.net
I’ll have to look into STWA.net–sounds worth a look.Thanks!
I’ll have to look into STWA.net–sounds worth a look.Thanks!
And thanks all, for the suggestions and thoughts. I have a bunch to think about and check out now.
And thanks all, for the suggestions and thoughts. I have a bunch to think about and check out now.
no idea
no idea
we’re charging $40 for a premium membership, which gives you access to the workshop – it’s a weak effort to screen those that aren’t serious, and it’s a great value, i think – people pay to submit to contests all the time
the fees just go to maintenance, to keep the site running
we’re charging $40 for a premium membership, which gives you access to the workshop – it’s a weak effort to screen those that aren’t serious, and it’s a great value, i think – people pay to submit to contests all the time
the fees just go to maintenance, to keep the site running