March 31st, 2010 / 3:17 am
Snippets
Snippets
Alec Niedenthal—
“The M.F.A. is a degree in servitude.” Mr. Cohen said. “It is a way to keep writing safe–to keep reading safe from writing. That I would be criticized as being romantic, or impractical, for making that statement just goes to show everything that’s wrong. Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” — Joshua Cohen, in an interview (and profile on his forthcoming Witz) with the Observer here.
this is a degree in servitude.
an MFA is opportunity to set aside 2-3 years of life to concentrate solely on writing creatively. and, presumably, hanging out with a crowd of people you come to either:
A) hate right away or
B) eventually start to secretly loathe or
C) i’ve never done an MFA and have no idea what i’m talking about.
“Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.”
yeah, but which one produces a physical object that others can read?
this is a degree in servitude.
an MFA is opportunity to set aside 2-3 years of life to concentrate solely on writing creatively. and, presumably, hanging out with a crowd of people you come to either:
A) hate right away or
B) eventually start to secretly loathe or
C) i’ve never done an MFA and have no idea what i’m talking about.
“Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.”
yeah, but which one produces a physical object that others can read?
I don’t think what he said makes any sense. It sounds like he strung together some oppositional and at first glance badass sound bytes for an interview with The New York Observer.
From the small bit of sense I am making up to argue against it, there’s a heap of MFA havin’ writers to the contrary.
Naturally, there’s a heap of boring ones as well.
The “unsafe” writers and the boring ones would most likely exist as is independently of their MFA.
I don’t find his statements impractical or romantic. Just kind of silly.
I would probably say the same shit if The New York Observer was interviewing me too, though.
I don’t think what he said makes any sense. It sounds like he strung together some oppositional and at first glance badass sound bytes for an interview with The New York Observer.
From the small bit of sense I am making up to argue against it, there’s a heap of MFA havin’ writers to the contrary.
Naturally, there’s a heap of boring ones as well.
The “unsafe” writers and the boring ones would most likely exist as is independently of their MFA.
I don’t find his statements impractical or romantic. Just kind of silly.
I would probably say the same shit if The New York Observer was interviewing me too, though.
fuck yeah
fuck yeah
“The targets might be Michael Chabon, Jonathan Safran Foer, Shalom Auslander,” Mr. Cohen told me. “When I started this book, I wanted to sleep with their wives. By the time I finished, I wanted to sleep with their mothers.”
Lol! Fearless!!!!!
“The targets might be Michael Chabon, Jonathan Safran Foer, Shalom Auslander,” Mr. Cohen told me. “When I started this book, I wanted to sleep with their wives. By the time I finished, I wanted to sleep with their mothers.”
Lol! Fearless!!!!!
damn…. all hail mr. cohen
damn…. all hail mr. cohen
It’ll be interesting to see what happens if/when the shorthands of “MFA” and “workshopping” separate…on a broader program level, and on this perception level.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens if/when the shorthands of “MFA” and “workshopping” separate…on a broader program level, and on this perception level.
i’m curious what tone of voice he was using when he said these things. might affect my perception of the comments. in any case, glad he’s bold.
i’m curious what tone of voice he was using when he said these things. might affect my perception of the comments. in any case, glad he’s bold.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think going after Chabon, Foer, and the MFA is very bold at all?
I do look forward to reading The Witz, it sounds like a fine thing, and I’ve enjoyed lots of Cohens words, but fuck…
Am I the only one who doesn’t think going after Chabon, Foer, and the MFA is very bold at all?
I do look forward to reading The Witz, it sounds like a fine thing, and I’ve enjoyed lots of Cohens words, but fuck…
Agreed.
Agreed.
a fat chunk of my friends have mfas, either in writing or art, and they’re all boring as shit.
a fat chunk of my friends have mfas, either in writing or art, and they’re all boring as shit.
What does that make the DFA, I wonder.
There are proudly “unsafe” MFA programs out there, a few… you just have to be willing to look past the POETS AND WRITERS Top 10.
What does that make the DFA, I wonder.
There are proudly “unsafe” MFA programs out there, a few… you just have to be willing to look past the POETS AND WRITERS Top 10.
It’s definitely impressively fearless, but I was left wondering why he said it. Seems pretty empty, if he’s being serious. If it’s jokes, it’s cool.
It’s definitely impressively fearless, but I was left wondering why he said it. Seems pretty empty, if he’s being serious. If it’s jokes, it’s cool.
a fat chunk of my friends don’t have mfas, either in writing or art, and they’re all boring as shit. wait. no. they’re not my friends.
a fat chunk of my friends don’t have mfas, either in writing or art, and they’re all boring as shit. wait. no. they’re not my friends.
No kidding. I mean, woah, setting your sights on fucking FOER? Brave man! Next he’ll be out-funnying David Sedaris. . .
IMO he comes off as a brattish goof in this interview. And, judging by the excerpt I read of Witz, a few years honing his craft wouldn’t have exactly hurt. . .
Furthermore, I’m not sure that I agree that writing is a -conviction- before it is a craft. Conviction makes it sound like you’re on some kind of conscious careerist mission; the inspired artist is IMO convictionless, listening, ears open. But there’s a great chance that that’s what he meant, anyway. . .
no, i’m with you. aren’t chabon and foer easy targets? mfa? i don’t think a thing can be bold if a lot of people have and have expressed the same thing. he does a good job sounding bold though. i feel like he’s trying hard to be funny and cool. the thing about white boys writing to be liked. i like how he exempted himself from that. seems like a strong career strategy.
i liked the excerpt i read of witz.
No kidding. I mean, woah, setting your sights on fucking FOER? Brave man! Next he’ll be out-funnying David Sedaris. . .
IMO he comes off as a brattish goof in this interview. And, judging by the excerpt I read of Witz, a few years honing his craft wouldn’t have exactly hurt. . .
Furthermore, I’m not sure that I agree that writing is a -conviction- before it is a craft. Conviction makes it sound like you’re on some kind of conscious careerist mission; the inspired artist is IMO convictionless, listening, ears open. But there’s a great chance that that’s what he meant, anyway. . .
no, i’m with you. aren’t chabon and foer easy targets? mfa? i don’t think a thing can be bold if a lot of people have and have expressed the same thing. he does a good job sounding bold though. i feel like he’s trying hard to be funny and cool. the thing about white boys writing to be liked. i like how he exempted himself from that. seems like a strong career strategy.
i liked the excerpt i read of witz.
What do you mean by boring?
What do you mean by boring?
glad i’m not your friend, joe young, or i’d say “I represent that!”
glad i’m not your friend, joe young, or i’d say “I represent that!”
i’m just kidding, ryan. i loves me some mfa having friends.
i’m just kidding, ryan. i loves me some mfa having friends.
if i get caught selling bootleg copies of the horse whisperer on the street this afternoon will you represent me?
Hah, I wasn’t taking it personal, honestly. I’m just immensely interested in what people consider boring, especially when it comes to someone’s personality.
Sometimes I think a boring personality is not so bad if it implies an awareness (and contentedness with) life’s simple pleasures. Sipping that ‘immortal ichor,’ as per Emerson. . . .
if i get caught selling bootleg copies of the horse whisperer on the street this afternoon will you represent me?
Hah, I wasn’t taking it personal, honestly. I’m just immensely interested in what people consider boring, especially when it comes to someone’s personality.
Sometimes I think a boring personality is not so bad if it implies an awareness (and contentedness with) life’s simple pleasures. Sipping that ‘immortal ichor,’ as per Emerson. . . .
A man who has David E as his lawyer has a fool for his client.
A man who has David E as his lawyer has a fool for his client.
All of your friends have MFA’s. As a rule?
All of your friends have MFA’s. As a rule?
yeah, “upon reflection,” that was my opinion too
yeah, “upon reflection,” that was my opinion too
Why I divorced my first wife…found out her MFA was from a non-peer school.
Why I divorced my first wife…found out her MFA was from a non-peer school.
first of all, it’s called “witz,” just “witz.” second of all, as a jewish writer, he’ll be compared to those guys whether he wants to be or not. third of all, he’s deliberately written a thinly-disguised “jewish novel” so it’s relevant to compare it to “jewish novels” by jewish contemporaries.
first of all, it’s called “witz,” just “witz.” second of all, as a jewish writer, he’ll be compared to those guys whether he wants to be or not. third of all, he’s deliberately written a thinly-disguised “jewish novel” so it’s relevant to compare it to “jewish novels” by jewish contemporaries.
ha.
ha.
Josh Cohen is pretentious in a very “yea I totally fucking hate pretentious people and fight them” sort of way. He is so bent on being anti-something that it comes back on him.
Josh Cohen is pretentious in a very “yea I totally fucking hate pretentious people and fight them” sort of way. He is so bent on being anti-something that it comes back on him.
first thing i do, find out if you have an mfa.
i was playing around via joseph young.
first thing i do, find out if you have an mfa.
i was playing around via joseph young.
oh: @BAC.
even if that was true, isn’t calling him out on it even more pretentious? hahaha….
Stephen,
I’m an ass for adding the “the.” that’s my bad.
I still find taking shots at Chabon, Foer, and the MFA super easy and super “safe” to use his term. Not only is it hot to go after both those people and the institutions, Foer wouldn’t hear that kind of remark if you stood outside his house and shouted it. Because his house is too fucking big. I consider it “bold” to make criticisms of the people who are standing next to you, not the people that are so far removed from you.
And as for “whether he wants to be or not” well, it seems clear that he wants to be, he’s the one who brought them into the conversation.
oh: @BAC.
even if that was true, isn’t calling him out on it even more pretentious? hahaha….
Stephen,
I’m an ass for adding the “the.” that’s my bad.
I still find taking shots at Chabon, Foer, and the MFA super easy and super “safe” to use his term. Not only is it hot to go after both those people and the institutions, Foer wouldn’t hear that kind of remark if you stood outside his house and shouted it. Because his house is too fucking big. I consider it “bold” to make criticisms of the people who are standing next to you, not the people that are so far removed from you.
And as for “whether he wants to be or not” well, it seems clear that he wants to be, he’s the one who brought them into the conversation.
i don’t think it’s safe in print, in the new york observer. i dont know any other authors on the “publicity trail” who say they want to fuck michael chabon’s wife and mother out of frustration over his jewish kitsch novels
i don’t think it’s safe in print, in the new york observer. i dont know any other authors on the “publicity trail” who say they want to fuck michael chabon’s wife and mother out of frustration over his jewish kitsch novels
i’d say these guys will hear about it, actually. it’s incendiary enough to create gossip or whatever
i’d say these guys will hear about it, actually. it’s incendiary enough to create gossip or whatever
I don’t think so.
The modern usage of the word ‘pretentious’ really frustrates me. It has become a general put-down for anyone you want to slap on the wrist, “don’t step out of line mister”. (Not really directed at you guys, just venting.)
I don’t think so.
The modern usage of the word ‘pretentious’ really frustrates me. It has become a general put-down for anyone you want to slap on the wrist, “don’t step out of line mister”. (Not really directed at you guys, just venting.)
yeah, relevant to compare to those guys. but does he need to point this out? it’s not what his book might be doing or what other books his book might be compared to, it’s his need to say the names. espeically considering what you just said, that it’s a thinly disguised jewish book and will thus be compared to other jewish novels, why the need to point out who he’s “targeting”? again, seems like strategical move that’s pretty easy to see through. i don’t know, maybe he got guided into that answer.
yeah, relevant to compare to those guys. but does he need to point this out? it’s not what his book might be doing or what other books his book might be compared to, it’s his need to say the names. espeically considering what you just said, that it’s a thinly disguised jewish book and will thus be compared to other jewish novels, why the need to point out who he’s “targeting”? again, seems like strategical move that’s pretty easy to see through. i don’t know, maybe he got guided into that answer.
She never urinated??
She never urinated??
Yeah, but the stuff about fucking wives is also really stupid, and childish. ‘Bold’ is something other than that, for me.
Yeah, but the stuff about fucking wives is also really stupid, and childish. ‘Bold’ is something other than that, for me.
Attacking the MFA is fucking boring, silly writer.
Oh, BTW, whiskey author interviews are more cliche than an MFA.
Look at me, an outsider!
Anyone read this guy is my question? I’ll let him ramble nonsense like this if he rocks it.
Attacking the MFA is fucking boring, silly writer.
Oh, BTW, whiskey author interviews are more cliche than an MFA.
Look at me, an outsider!
Anyone read this guy is my question? I’ll let him ramble nonsense like this if he rocks it.
It’s stated with crass humor, but the point is an aesthetic one–to maintain the disquieting element to the end, not to fall into kitsch and recuperation of the experience. This would appear to be an obsession of Cohen’s, as seen in his introduction to Jakov Lind’s book Landscape in Concrete, in which he writes that “[Lind] is the one Jewish novelist of the Holocaust who, in a major European language, expressed the Holocaust not through language, but in language. As language. (One has to read in Yiddish to find anything comparable.) To be sure, this was aestheticizing horror. To be sure, this is what writers do. Or are supposed to do.”
So this is an issue that he is persistently engaged with, i.e. the representation of the Holocaust, the degree to which it should be aestheticized, the degree to which language should mirror the horrors, whether plot should resolve or leave a gaping darkness that can’t be sealed by a period, whether the Holocaust is more like an infernal planet or a black hole. This is without having read Witz, of course, so I come at it speculating and anticipating.
The stuff about sleeping with wives and moms I read as rhetorical…the point as I take it is that he changed in the course of writing this book from being more like Chabon and Foer and wound up being something and somewhere different. It’s not unchecked criticism, either–he concedes, “They do what they do very well…”
It’s stated with crass humor, but the point is an aesthetic one–to maintain the disquieting element to the end, not to fall into kitsch and recuperation of the experience. This would appear to be an obsession of Cohen’s, as seen in his introduction to Jakov Lind’s book Landscape in Concrete, in which he writes that “[Lind] is the one Jewish novelist of the Holocaust who, in a major European language, expressed the Holocaust not through language, but in language. As language. (One has to read in Yiddish to find anything comparable.) To be sure, this was aestheticizing horror. To be sure, this is what writers do. Or are supposed to do.”
So this is an issue that he is persistently engaged with, i.e. the representation of the Holocaust, the degree to which it should be aestheticized, the degree to which language should mirror the horrors, whether plot should resolve or leave a gaping darkness that can’t be sealed by a period, whether the Holocaust is more like an infernal planet or a black hole. This is without having read Witz, of course, so I come at it speculating and anticipating.
The stuff about sleeping with wives and moms I read as rhetorical…the point as I take it is that he changed in the course of writing this book from being more like Chabon and Foer and wound up being something and somewhere different. It’s not unchecked criticism, either–he concedes, “They do what they do very well…”
I feel like an idiot. I keep getting the name of this book wrong.
I feel like an idiot. I keep getting the name of this book wrong.
“Attacking the MFA is fucking boring, silly writer.” – Yes, but I get a little excited when I see this topic being argued on the internet. There should be a shorthand for this to save everybody some time, rather than rehashing the pros/cons every time – maybe somebody just says “MFA argument” and we all know what that means without actually re-typing it all out.
“Attacking the MFA is fucking boring, silly writer.” – Yes, but I get a little excited when I see this topic being argued on the internet. There should be a shorthand for this to save everybody some time, rather than rehashing the pros/cons every time – maybe somebody just says “MFA argument” and we all know what that means without actually re-typing it all out.
i agree that attacking the MFA is not an original thing to do, but this bit about “conviction” is the meat of it, i’m nearly certain. knocking the MFA is tertiary. the reason he could be called “bold” or “fearless” is not merely because he can be quoted out of context as saying “fuck michael chabon, JSF, i’ll fuck their wives and mothers,” but also because he says all this matter-of-factly, from what i can surmise. it doesn’t seem like a “whiskey author interview” at all. that he expresses his position so forcefully just as a matter of course is the bold, or at least, nowadays, uncommon thing.
i agree that attacking the MFA is not an original thing to do, but this bit about “conviction” is the meat of it, i’m nearly certain. knocking the MFA is tertiary. the reason he could be called “bold” or “fearless” is not merely because he can be quoted out of context as saying “fuck michael chabon, JSF, i’ll fuck their wives and mothers,” but also because he says all this matter-of-factly, from what i can surmise. it doesn’t seem like a “whiskey author interview” at all. that he expresses his position so forcefully just as a matter of course is the bold, or at least, nowadays, uncommon thing.
probably yea.
probably yea.
and i’m not qualified or safe to say this, but i imagine being a new york jewish writer and doing that is even more bold
and i’m not qualified or safe to say this, but i imagine being a new york jewish writer and doing that is even more bold
Probably its safe to ‘go after’ slavery or hitler or crack dealers but that doesnt make it meaningless?
Probably its safe to ‘go after’ slavery or hitler or crack dealers but that doesnt make it meaningless?
I learned to write in an institution – just not the same one as the blowhards. I don’ t mean that necessarily. I don’t like the strict pedigree opinions. If you hate or strictly defend the MFA than you need to examine why, I distrust the MFA but not the native outsider, believing that the MFA are the only elite is BS as is the opinion that we only hate because we don’t have one. FU, I don’t hate but distrust you.
Life makes better writers than MFA, I have a FA degree as well, all it taught me was to go to the other institution to really learn something, there I learned what it means to be looking at something differently. MFA creates a writer by teaching them to write what people are reading. Life teaches a person to define what others will be reading. Am I over stating?
I learned to write in an institution – just not the same one as the blowhards. I don’ t mean that necessarily. I don’t like the strict pedigree opinions. If you hate or strictly defend the MFA than you need to examine why, I distrust the MFA but not the native outsider, believing that the MFA are the only elite is BS as is the opinion that we only hate because we don’t have one. FU, I don’t hate but distrust you.
Life makes better writers than MFA, I have a FA degree as well, all it taught me was to go to the other institution to really learn something, there I learned what it means to be looking at something differently. MFA creates a writer by teaching them to write what people are reading. Life teaches a person to define what others will be reading. Am I over stating?
“And, judging by the excerpt I read of Witz, a few years honing his craft wouldn’t have exactly hurt. . .”
You’re likely to be the minority opinion with that one, chief….
“And, judging by the excerpt I read of Witz, a few years honing his craft wouldn’t have exactly hurt. . .”
You’re likely to be the minority opinion with that one, chief….
Huge fan of Cohen. Don’t precisely agree with his vision of the MFA, but I’ve eaten a lot of shit here as a result of not being a boring writer, so it feels sort of real to me.
Huge fan of Cohen. Don’t precisely agree with his vision of the MFA, but I’ve eaten a lot of shit here as a result of not being a boring writer, so it feels sort of real to me.
no worries, mate :)
no worries, mate :)
An MFA gives you TIME period. Nobody at my MFA gave a damn about how you wrote. Why would they?
Here are some books. Read them if you want.
Here is some TIME. Drink beer, coffee, write. Or don’t.
That’s an MFA.
An MFA gives you TIME period. Nobody at my MFA gave a damn about how you wrote. Why would they?
Here are some books. Read them if you want.
Here is some TIME. Drink beer, coffee, write. Or don’t.
That’s an MFA.
if that’s all an mfa is, it seems like a lot of trouble to go to.
here is a book: Academonia, by Dodie Bellamy. read it if you want.
if that’s all an mfa is, it seems like a lot of trouble to go to.
here is a book: Academonia, by Dodie Bellamy. read it if you want.
I like this. This is a good deal of my experience. There were also: access to a steady stream of visiting writers who I would’ve driven many miles to see. A library card. Extra time conferred on self by non-explanation (plus having to explain self, net gain in time positive). Camaraderie. Hijinks. Detailed commentary. Deadlines. Journal editing ops. Must-reads. Debates. Strolls with ostensible math students who were closet novelists. Cross-genre nudges, shoves, etc.
Actually, now that I think about it there was a not inconsiderable amount of overlap with HTML Giant.
I like this. This is a good deal of my experience. There were also: access to a steady stream of visiting writers who I would’ve driven many miles to see. A library card. Extra time conferred on self by non-explanation (plus having to explain self, net gain in time positive). Camaraderie. Hijinks. Detailed commentary. Deadlines. Journal editing ops. Must-reads. Debates. Strolls with ostensible math students who were closet novelists. Cross-genre nudges, shoves, etc.
Actually, now that I think about it there was a not inconsiderable amount of overlap with HTML Giant.
Trouble to go to?
I was working 50+ hours at an emergency room RN when I went to my MFA. I was in a state of shock. You are going to PAY me to read books and listen to authors say things about writing. I am going to have months and years to write? Um, OK.
I am of course being a bit hyperbolic saying it’s only time. I suppose you can go study with some master or learn some theory or listen very carefully to amazing workshop feedback, etc., and, yes, Bama MFA offers all of this, and more. (For example, you can edit the Black Warrior Review)
But. You can also go and just read and write a ton.
As for intellectual concerns of an MFA, I’ll read the book you mention but I’ll let others address those academic topics. I’m simply not much of an intellectual. I actually wish I was, and am trying! I’m not stupid, though. Other, especially on this site, can more thoroughly delve into the intellectual aspects of graduate study.
But on the MFA topic, in the end, I think it gives you what i said: time to write. So these massive arguments about its worth or effect are lost on me. And I sometimes wonder: Was it the woman who wrote erotica exclusively in rhyming verse that was the MFA story during my time at Bama? Or was it Ander Monson? Jennifer S Davis? Paul Guest?
On and on…
Sean, you forgot ‘pay us many thousands of dollars’
Trouble to go to?
I was working 50+ hours at an emergency room RN when I went to my MFA. I was in a state of shock. You are going to PAY me to read books and listen to authors say things about writing. I am going to have months and years to write? Um, OK.
I am of course being a bit hyperbolic saying it’s only time. I suppose you can go study with some master or learn some theory or listen very carefully to amazing workshop feedback, etc., and, yes, Bama MFA offers all of this, and more. (For example, you can edit the Black Warrior Review)
But. You can also go and just read and write a ton.
As for intellectual concerns of an MFA, I’ll read the book you mention but I’ll let others address those academic topics. I’m simply not much of an intellectual. I actually wish I was, and am trying! I’m not stupid, though. Other, especially on this site, can more thoroughly delve into the intellectual aspects of graduate study.
But on the MFA topic, in the end, I think it gives you what i said: time to write. So these massive arguments about its worth or effect are lost on me. And I sometimes wonder: Was it the woman who wrote erotica exclusively in rhyming verse that was the MFA story during my time at Bama? Or was it Ander Monson? Jennifer S Davis? Paul Guest?
On and on…
Sean, you forgot ‘pay us many thousands of dollars’
Ryan, don’t presume to judge my ex-wife. Just b/c she never urinated … is nobody’s business except hers (and mine). Thank you! And that thank you is meant to be the “dismissive” kind that sounds condescending and patronizing (the way she would have said it).
Ryan, don’t presume to judge my ex-wife. Just b/c she never urinated … is nobody’s business except hers (and mine). Thank you! And that thank you is meant to be the “dismissive” kind that sounds condescending and patronizing (the way she would have said it).
i think the notion that it teaches writers to write what people are reading is bullshit.
i’m not saying that people don’t come out of the mfa program thinking this way is bullshit, but that’s just fucking people. and yeah, sure, i take this personally, being in an mfa program.
me, i don’t trust anyone i don’t know. but that’s how i was raised. i don’t think having an mfa makes you a better writer. i think that the experiences i am having in an mfa program right now are making me a better writer. i think it’s speeding things up. i think i’d probably figure out a lot of these things, these changes that are occurring in my work, i think i’d figure a bunch of them out on my own without the mfa, but it would take a much longer time.
“I have a FA degree as well, all it taught me was to go to the other institution to really learn something, there I learned what it means to be looking at something differently.”
this i agree with completely, having a bfa from an art school. this is though not quite what my program is about. nor is it about time to write. i assumed that’s what i needed. what i needed was a series of catalysts. i am glad for this decision.
and i am sure you don’t actually mean that the whole point of the mfa is to teach you to write what people are reading, or maybe you do, and there are certainly people like that, but to say that the thing is anything other than what you fucking make of it seems not only foolish but absolutely wrong headed.
most of this shit is whatever you make of it. so do that. sometimes what you make of it is fucking boring and sometimes it fucking isn’t. most of that probably depends on the person involved, but if any of us can sit here and say we never wrote a boring thing in our lives, then fuck you for being better than me.
i think the notion that it teaches writers to write what people are reading is bullshit.
i’m not saying that people don’t come out of the mfa program thinking this way is bullshit, but that’s just fucking people. and yeah, sure, i take this personally, being in an mfa program.
me, i don’t trust anyone i don’t know. but that’s how i was raised. i don’t think having an mfa makes you a better writer. i think that the experiences i am having in an mfa program right now are making me a better writer. i think it’s speeding things up. i think i’d probably figure out a lot of these things, these changes that are occurring in my work, i think i’d figure a bunch of them out on my own without the mfa, but it would take a much longer time.
“I have a FA degree as well, all it taught me was to go to the other institution to really learn something, there I learned what it means to be looking at something differently.”
this i agree with completely, having a bfa from an art school. this is though not quite what my program is about. nor is it about time to write. i assumed that’s what i needed. what i needed was a series of catalysts. i am glad for this decision.
and i am sure you don’t actually mean that the whole point of the mfa is to teach you to write what people are reading, or maybe you do, and there are certainly people like that, but to say that the thing is anything other than what you fucking make of it seems not only foolish but absolutely wrong headed.
most of this shit is whatever you make of it. so do that. sometimes what you make of it is fucking boring and sometimes it fucking isn’t. most of that probably depends on the person involved, but if any of us can sit here and say we never wrote a boring thing in our lives, then fuck you for being better than me.
i actually have a question jhon, what is the other institution that you referred when you said you went there to really learn something? i am not saying this with overtones or anything. curious is all.
i actually have a question jhon, what is the other institution that you referred when you said you went there to really learn something? i am not saying this with overtones or anything. curious is all.
is the idea to be some sort of “bulletproof,” endlessly cool author who hovers over the earth, disconnected from mere mortals, occasionally drizzling some sweet Pure High Art honey down on the niche audience?
I absolutely agree with this, Sean. I just do not understand all the ridiculous rhetoric against the MFA. For the record, I do not have one but I do have a creative writing degree and I really appreciate that I had the time during my MA program to write and be around literature and theory and think about how these things work together. I understand the frustration with the MFA in a broad sense and how often, MFA programs might serve as gatekeepers for modern letters but I also think that it has become a new way of flashing your “cred” to shit all over people who choose to pursue the MFA. I’m working on a longer post that is, in essence, a defense of education but my immediate reaction to this interview is that Cohen’s words are tired and not interesting. (I am, however, excited to read Witz.)
This is one of those articles where the writer is being deliberately provocative and there’s a certain lack of self awareness for a white guy to be talking about other white guys who like to be liked. It was hard to take the rest of the piece seriously after that line. I also don’t understand the fucking of wives and mothers and the use of sex as… revenge on writers he dislikes? I don’t get the point he’s trying to make. Can someone clarify?
Do most young novelists have an MFA?
I love how the writer says that Brighton Beach is “far” from literary enclaves like Park Slope. That is not far. Idaho is far from Park Slope.
Also, I love Michael Chabon’s writing.
is the idea to be some sort of “bulletproof,” endlessly cool author who hovers over the earth, disconnected from mere mortals, occasionally drizzling some sweet Pure High Art honey down on the niche audience?
I absolutely agree with this, Sean. I just do not understand all the ridiculous rhetoric against the MFA. For the record, I do not have one but I do have a creative writing degree and I really appreciate that I had the time during my MA program to write and be around literature and theory and think about how these things work together. I understand the frustration with the MFA in a broad sense and how often, MFA programs might serve as gatekeepers for modern letters but I also think that it has become a new way of flashing your “cred” to shit all over people who choose to pursue the MFA. I’m working on a longer post that is, in essence, a defense of education but my immediate reaction to this interview is that Cohen’s words are tired and not interesting. (I am, however, excited to read Witz.)
This is one of those articles where the writer is being deliberately provocative and there’s a certain lack of self awareness for a white guy to be talking about other white guys who like to be liked. It was hard to take the rest of the piece seriously after that line. I also don’t understand the fucking of wives and mothers and the use of sex as… revenge on writers he dislikes? I don’t get the point he’s trying to make. Can someone clarify?
Do most young novelists have an MFA?
I love how the writer says that Brighton Beach is “far” from literary enclaves like Park Slope. That is not far. Idaho is far from Park Slope.
Also, I love Michael Chabon’s writing.
it’s more the norman mailer approach to interviews/public speaking. the artist as gladiator, or whatever. which is, to make a gigantic understatement, not a common or popular or even “acceptable” approach these days
it’s more the norman mailer approach to interviews/public speaking. the artist as gladiator, or whatever. which is, to make a gigantic understatement, not a common or popular or even “acceptable” approach these days
i’m not sure whether or not joshua’s words qualify as “all [this] ridiculous rhetoric against the MFA.” What he says is: “The M.F.A. is a degree in servitude. It is a way to keep writing safe–to keep reading safe from writing. That I would be criticized as being romantic, or impractical, for making that statement just goes to show everything that’s wrong. Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.”
That is: 2 opinions, a rhetorical move expertly designed to dismiss criticisms of the kind you just made, and then a genuinely interesting statement that may in fact be “the point” of the whole thing: “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” This last statement is only interesting if one’s mind isn’t stuck on the literal level all the time, searching around for kneejerk counter-arguments along the lines of “but…if you don’t, hone your conviction…into, like, a craft..then, i mean…it won’t even get seen..in the first place, so…i mean…”
i’m not sure whether or not joshua’s words qualify as “all [this] ridiculous rhetoric against the MFA.” What he says is: “The M.F.A. is a degree in servitude. It is a way to keep writing safe–to keep reading safe from writing. That I would be criticized as being romantic, or impractical, for making that statement just goes to show everything that’s wrong. Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.”
That is: 2 opinions, a rhetorical move expertly designed to dismiss criticisms of the kind you just made, and then a genuinely interesting statement that may in fact be “the point” of the whole thing: “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” This last statement is only interesting if one’s mind isn’t stuck on the literal level all the time, searching around for kneejerk counter-arguments along the lines of “but…if you don’t, hone your conviction…into, like, a craft..then, i mean…it won’t even get seen..in the first place, so…i mean…”
having said that, could mr. cohen be “nicer” maybe and just “drop this generation’s ‘Ulysses’ on their asses without trashing innocent authors on the publicity trail”? well, yes, he could. he may get more ppl’s ears pricked up and sell more copies this way, though. perhaps. or maybe it’d be about the same either way. who knows.
having said that, could mr. cohen be “nicer” maybe and just “drop this generation’s ‘Ulysses’ on their asses without trashing innocent authors on the publicity trail”? well, yes, he could. he may get more ppl’s ears pricked up and sell more copies this way, though. perhaps. or maybe it’d be about the same either way. who knows.
@ stephen: not at all. i’m just saying we all probably could’ve gotten that he was targeting foer et al without him having to tell us. i mean, it’s not that interesting and seems highly calculated and therefore preachy.
@ stephen: not at all. i’m just saying we all probably could’ve gotten that he was targeting foer et al without him having to tell us. i mean, it’s not that interesting and seems highly calculated and therefore preachy.
that is basically my point, though. is it “preachy” to state your opinion and intentions clearly and openly? because if it is, then that means that it would be “better” to cloak one’s opinions and intentions, which is a High Art fiction -type thing, unless i’m off the ball here. Like, what is “interesting,” exactly? Why is it even bad to be ‘preachy’? Heh… that last one may or may not be a serious question…
that is basically my point, though. is it “preachy” to state your opinion and intentions clearly and openly? because if it is, then that means that it would be “better” to cloak one’s opinions and intentions, which is a High Art fiction -type thing, unless i’m off the ball here. Like, what is “interesting,” exactly? Why is it even bad to be ‘preachy’? Heh… that last one may or may not be a serious question…
isn’t fiction ‘always’ highly calculated? aren’t we all highly calculated all the time, every day???????
isn’t fiction ‘always’ highly calculated? aren’t we all highly calculated all the time, every day???????
i mean the most honest thing he could say would be: “I wrote this book to be the Jewish James Joyce and shit on all these hos.”
i mean the most honest thing he could say would be: “I wrote this book to be the Jewish James Joyce and shit on all these hos.”
to be precise, we do have less calculated moments, but they happen in bed with a lover or something, not in an interview with the new york observer
to be precise, we do have less calculated moments, but they happen in bed with a lover or something, not in an interview with the new york observer
(i might be doing ‘that thing’ i ‘do sometimes’ again… sorry if i’m being offensive or w/e)
(i might be doing ‘that thing’ i ‘do sometimes’ again… sorry if i’m being offensive or w/e)
stephen, but see, i don’t think he’s stating anything clearly. he’s obscuring shit. still, yeah, i see what you’re saying. it makes sense and is reasonable. i think we just disagree. i think that’s okay. i just think it’s not very cool to say, See, these guys suck, they’re doing it wrong. he could say, I don’t enjoy their books, but instead he basically says, What they’re doing, it’s wrong. which of course implies that he’s doing it right. also, it feels bitchy, envious (even if cloaked in joke), and what, this guy has five books? what’s there to bitch about? I’d rather he just said: I’m envious of these guys whose books I don’t really think are that strong.
also, he just wrote an 800 page book? does he need one more sentence bashing foer (this is not a defense of foer)?
stephen, but see, i don’t think he’s stating anything clearly. he’s obscuring shit. still, yeah, i see what you’re saying. it makes sense and is reasonable. i think we just disagree. i think that’s okay. i just think it’s not very cool to say, See, these guys suck, they’re doing it wrong. he could say, I don’t enjoy their books, but instead he basically says, What they’re doing, it’s wrong. which of course implies that he’s doing it right. also, it feels bitchy, envious (even if cloaked in joke), and what, this guy has five books? what’s there to bitch about? I’d rather he just said: I’m envious of these guys whose books I don’t really think are that strong.
also, he just wrote an 800 page book? does he need one more sentence bashing foer (this is not a defense of foer)?
when you put it like that, i understand better, alan. thanks. i sort of agree with you, actually.
when you put it like that, i understand better, alan. thanks. i sort of agree with you, actually.
i don’t know about ‘envious,’ but you could ‘make an argument’ for ‘bitchy’ heh Although, a male writer of Very Serious books being ‘bitchy’ is kind of funny in a way…. hehe
i don’t know about ‘envious,’ but you could ‘make an argument’ for ‘bitchy’ heh Although, a male writer of Very Serious books being ‘bitchy’ is kind of funny in a way…. hehe
dude, you weren’t being offensive at all. apparently it takes me a minute to say what i mean,, but glad you got it out of me. sort of cleared it up for me, too.
dude, you weren’t being offensive at all. apparently it takes me a minute to say what i mean,, but glad you got it out of me. sort of cleared it up for me, too.
i guess maybe he’s ‘not’ doing Very Serious books. he’s doing ‘very distinguished’ Very Witty books
i guess maybe he’s ‘not’ doing Very Serious books. he’s doing ‘very distinguished’ Very Witty books
not to be annoying or whatever, but im pretty sure joyce talked shit about eliot back in the day
not to be annoying or whatever, but im pretty sure joyce talked shit about eliot back in the day
That I would be criticized as being romantic, or impractical, for making that statement just goes to show everything that’s wrong. Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.”
———
No, you would be criticized for assuming that many MFA students don’t enter MFA programs with “conviction.” Or, for implying that learning to write is some sort of linear process, where a person proceeds from a, to b, to c, etc. Do you realize, Mr. Cohen, that you contradict yourself here by practicing the same kind of aesthetic dogma that you and others preach against? I mean, really, on what planet does any serious writer decide when it’s time to proceed from “conviction” to “craft?”
What an embarrassing comment.
That I would be criticized as being romantic, or impractical, for making that statement just goes to show everything that’s wrong. Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.”
———
No, you would be criticized for assuming that many MFA students don’t enter MFA programs with “conviction.” Or, for implying that learning to write is some sort of linear process, where a person proceeds from a, to b, to c, etc. Do you realize, Mr. Cohen, that you contradict yourself here by practicing the same kind of aesthetic dogma that you and others preach against? I mean, really, on what planet does any serious writer decide when it’s time to proceed from “conviction” to “craft?”
What an embarrassing comment.
sean, your description is pretty much why an MFA is not a degree but a rubber stamp
very rubber
i have one, and i still think that
MFA in stamp collecting
the more important part of Josh’s thought there is, “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” truth.
sean, your description is pretty much why an MFA is not a degree but a rubber stamp
very rubber
i have one, and i still think that
MFA in stamp collecting
the more important part of Josh’s thought there is, “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” truth.
yall read this Vanity Fair interview w/ Joyce conducted by Djuna Barnes?
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/JAMES-JOYCE,-VF,-p.PDF
the main attraction might be Barnes’ writing
yall read this Vanity Fair interview w/ Joyce conducted by Djuna Barnes?
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/JAMES-JOYCE,-VF,-p.PDF
the main attraction might be Barnes’ writing
this was my point, too, about the “conviction” quote being “the thing.” thanks, blake.
this was my point, too, about the “conviction” quote being “the thing.” thanks, blake.
“the more important part of Josh’s thought there is, “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” truth.”
_______-
It’s “true” when removed from the original context.
It’s ridiculous, though, to assume that people enroll in MFA programs without “conviction,” or to assume that many craft discussionsin MFA pr ograms aren’t intimately tied to “conviction.” I expected more authentic thinking from a writer many of you all hail as the next Joyce or last great modernist.
“the more important part of Josh’s thought there is, “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” truth.”
_______-
It’s “true” when removed from the original context.
It’s ridiculous, though, to assume that people enroll in MFA programs without “conviction,” or to assume that many craft discussionsin MFA pr ograms aren’t intimately tied to “conviction.” I expected more authentic thinking from a writer many of you all hail as the next Joyce or last great modernist.
“the more important part of Josh’s thought there is, “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” truth.”
_______
It’s “true” when removed from the original context.
It’s ridiculous, though, to assume that people enroll in MFA programs without “conviction,” or to assume that many craft discussions in MFA programs aren’t intimately tied to “conviction.” I expected more authentic thinking from a writer many of you all hail as the next Joyce or last great modernist.
“the more important part of Josh’s thought there is, “Writing is a conviction before it is a craft.” truth.”
_______
It’s “true” when removed from the original context.
It’s ridiculous, though, to assume that people enroll in MFA programs without “conviction,” or to assume that many craft discussions in MFA programs aren’t intimately tied to “conviction.” I expected more authentic thinking from a writer many of you all hail as the next Joyce or last great modernist.
‘want’ is not ‘conviction’
nor is aspiration
nor is trying
‘want’ is not ‘conviction’
nor is aspiration
nor is trying
That’s some MFAs, Sean. It’s not all of them. Truth is I had more time before I started my MFA, as in wrote much more, and I didn’t have to pay for the privilege of ritual humiliations where I was told it was impossible to do things the writers I love do.
Not that it’s all bad.
I think that these arguments end up being really useless and stupid because people are insisting their experience of “the MFA” is the experience of “the MFA.” We’ve had different MFA experiences, just as we’re different writers — some have been good, some have been bad. Those are both real things. And I think the underlying point Cohen is trying to make isn’t so much that every MFA sucks, although he might believe that, as that an MFA doesn’t make you a writer or not a writer, which is obvious — except, of course, to some instructors at certain MFAs.
That’s some MFAs, Sean. It’s not all of them. Truth is I had more time before I started my MFA, as in wrote much more, and I didn’t have to pay for the privilege of ritual humiliations where I was told it was impossible to do things the writers I love do.
Not that it’s all bad.
I think that these arguments end up being really useless and stupid because people are insisting their experience of “the MFA” is the experience of “the MFA.” We’ve had different MFA experiences, just as we’re different writers — some have been good, some have been bad. Those are both real things. And I think the underlying point Cohen is trying to make isn’t so much that every MFA sucks, although he might believe that, as that an MFA doesn’t make you a writer or not a writer, which is obvious — except, of course, to some instructors at certain MFAs.
He’s not saying you don’t have conviction if you get an MFA. He’s saying an MFA won’t do you any good without it, and ultimately you don’t need an MFA if you’ve got the conviction.
I think an MFA can help, but I agree: you don’t need one.
He’s not saying you don’t have conviction if you get an MFA. He’s saying an MFA won’t do you any good without it, and ultimately you don’t need an MFA if you’ve got the conviction.
I think an MFA can help, but I agree: you don’t need one.
‘for some reason,’ this reminds me of that gaddis quote about how he’s not an experimental writer, bc everything’s intentional and precise, so there’s no ‘experiment’
‘for some reason,’ this reminds me of that gaddis quote about how he’s not an experimental writer, bc everything’s intentional and precise, so there’s no ‘experiment’
‘want’ is not ‘conviction’
nor is aspiration
nor is trying
—————-
I know the definition of conviction.
‘want’ is not ‘conviction’
nor is aspiration
nor is trying
—————-
I know the definition of conviction.
many writers do not.
That’s an interesting interpretation of his quote, given what he says about MFA programs elsewhere in the article.
many writers do not.
That’s an interesting interpretation of his quote, given what he says about MFA programs elsewhere in the article.
I know. This is a phenomenon that would exist with or without MFA programs, too.
I know. This is a phenomenon that would exist with or without MFA programs, too.
I think that you missed the middle of my post – where I say that “believing that the MFA are the only elite is BS as is the opinion that we only hate because we don’t have one” I mean by that – you may be an excellent writer with an MFA but it doesn’t up your chances or teach you anything you need to write.
think what you will.
I think that you missed the middle of my post – where I say that “believing that the MFA are the only elite is BS as is the opinion that we only hate because we don’t have one” I mean by that – you may be an excellent writer with an MFA but it doesn’t up your chances or teach you anything you need to write.
think what you will.
Who collects MFAs, Blake?
And also so what if a lot of time to write and hanging out with writers and having visiting authors and having to write a thesis and whatever else you want to do at your MFA is a rubber stamp?
I think my point is being missed. An MFA is TIME. TIME is the most valuable universe a writer can visit. Time, to me, was worth more than all the MFA theories in the world.
Conviction is important, though it smells a bit like passion. I hate to be a writer and a teacher of writing who argue that writing is a fascinating intellectual/sometimes mystical/sometimes just plain interesting way to puzzle out things activity, but does not necessarily have to be your passion. But I will.
Because it’s what I believe. Other things are just as important as writing.
Saying that, I respect those writers who feel it is conviction and passion and all those wonderful abstract words. Many of them write better than me (easily done, though).
But I am for a plurality when it comes to writing. Both camps.
Who collects MFAs, Blake?
And also so what if a lot of time to write and hanging out with writers and having visiting authors and having to write a thesis and whatever else you want to do at your MFA is a rubber stamp?
I think my point is being missed. An MFA is TIME. TIME is the most valuable universe a writer can visit. Time, to me, was worth more than all the MFA theories in the world.
Conviction is important, though it smells a bit like passion. I hate to be a writer and a teacher of writing who argue that writing is a fascinating intellectual/sometimes mystical/sometimes just plain interesting way to puzzle out things activity, but does not necessarily have to be your passion. But I will.
Because it’s what I believe. Other things are just as important as writing.
Saying that, I respect those writers who feel it is conviction and passion and all those wonderful abstract words. Many of them write better than me (easily done, though).
But I am for a plurality when it comes to writing. Both camps.
No judging! I am secretly a non-peer too. . . my tinkle exits though my “constantly runny” nose.
No judging! I am secretly a non-peer too. . . my tinkle exits though my “constantly runny” nose.
Whoa! If the excerpt I read is indicative at all of the book’s quality, Witz is a far cry from even approaching Ulsysses. Let’s not idolize Mr. Cohen.
I realize you quoted that part, so perhaps you were being facetious. Sorry—
Whoa! If the excerpt I read is indicative at all of the book’s quality, Witz is a far cry from even approaching Ulsysses. Let’s not idolize Mr. Cohen.
I realize you quoted that part, so perhaps you were being facetious. Sorry—
Thank you Mike. (This is Ryan P.) The one real concern I have about MFA’s is whether it really does allow you time. Between all the hoops they make you jump through for scholarship dough (TA, journal editing, whatever else), I’m not convinced that you gain that much time. . . I am still kind of tentative about the whole thing.
Of course, if you happen to develop a great teacher-mentor relationship with someone, then it’s all worth it. . . but that is definitely no guarantee. . .
Getting an MFA now. Major mixed feelings about it. Paying for it myself. Lack of fiction professors (although the one guy from this academic year is really really good). Too much of a poetry slant. Have LESS time to write what I actually want than before. My “outside” writing doesn’t really fit my classes. I don’t very much done except for during breaks between semesters and am constantly frustrated. I Have to take threeclasses per semester. Liked two of them last semester. One this semester. Will hopefully like all next semester. Really looking forward to two of them. Totally obsessed with the idea that I picked the wrong program (I was accepted into one besides this one).
Guess my main reason for doing an MFA is to get out of a long “career” rut. My writing has gone pretty well throughout the years, but I wasn’t happy with how I was paying my bills. Last job was overnights at a gas station. I’ve gotten some good teaching opportunities because of school. Hoping to get a community college job or something similar. On one hand, it would have made more sense to go to school for education, but I wanted to study writing. This is what I do.
But I’m probably fucked for life as far as the student loans and stuff. But I’m a lot happier than I was a year ago. Being a student is mostly a good time.
Thank you Mike. (This is Ryan P.) The one real concern I have about MFA’s is whether it really does allow you time. Between all the hoops they make you jump through for scholarship dough (TA, journal editing, whatever else), I’m not convinced that you gain that much time. . . I am still kind of tentative about the whole thing.
Of course, if you happen to develop a great teacher-mentor relationship with someone, then it’s all worth it. . . but that is definitely no guarantee. . .
Getting an MFA now. Major mixed feelings about it. Paying for it myself. Lack of fiction professors (although the one guy from this academic year is really really good). Too much of a poetry slant. Have LESS time to write what I actually want than before. My “outside” writing doesn’t really fit my classes. I don’t very much done except for during breaks between semesters and am constantly frustrated. I Have to take threeclasses per semester. Liked two of them last semester. One this semester. Will hopefully like all next semester. Really looking forward to two of them. Totally obsessed with the idea that I picked the wrong program (I was accepted into one besides this one).
Guess my main reason for doing an MFA is to get out of a long “career” rut. My writing has gone pretty well throughout the years, but I wasn’t happy with how I was paying my bills. Last job was overnights at a gas station. I’ve gotten some good teaching opportunities because of school. Hoping to get a community college job or something similar. On one hand, it would have made more sense to go to school for education, but I wanted to study writing. This is what I do.
But I’m probably fucked for life as far as the student loans and stuff. But I’m a lot happier than I was a year ago. Being a student is mostly a good time.
such comparisons are approximate and perhaps foolish, but i dunno, man… i don’t agree with “a far cry from even approaching…”
such comparisons are approximate and perhaps foolish, but i dunno, man… i don’t agree with “a far cry from even approaching…”
I am still really suspicious of this conviction stuff. I’m not inclined to agree with you guys that it is necessary for great writing—in fact, it might make it easier to produce bad shit.
Would you say that Shakespeare had conviction? I’m not sure that I would—but maybe we need to hash out what we mean by writerly conviction.
I’ll toss this out: IMO ‘conviction’ is only a useful starting point, and a starting point that isn’t always necessary. Something else must blossom in the artist aside from ‘conviction’—something that has to do with a nearly religious kind of surrender. That’s vague, but better words aren’t coming to me right now.
I am still really suspicious of this conviction stuff. I’m not inclined to agree with you guys that it is necessary for great writing—in fact, it might make it easier to produce bad shit.
Would you say that Shakespeare had conviction? I’m not sure that I would—but maybe we need to hash out what we mean by writerly conviction.
I’ll toss this out: IMO ‘conviction’ is only a useful starting point, and a starting point that isn’t always necessary. Something else must blossom in the artist aside from ‘conviction’—something that has to do with a nearly religious kind of surrender. That’s vague, but better words aren’t coming to me right now.
Well, I am responding to only an excerpt. Definitely not the necessary sample size.
oooh… now you prick up my ears with the phrase “a nearly religious kind of surrender.” i’m definitely down with that… you are persuasive and/or insightful, mr. “ryan”
Well, I am responding to only an excerpt. Definitely not the necessary sample size.
oooh… now you prick up my ears with the phrase “a nearly religious kind of surrender.” i’m definitely down with that… you are persuasive and/or insightful, mr. “ryan”
i had a line in this story that will never see the light blue glow of internet explorer that said: “believing surrender is the thing”
i had a line in this story that will never see the light blue glow of internet explorer that said: “believing surrender is the thing”
Ryan,
I hear you. I’m suspicious of any statement claiming to know what’s “needed” to write well, blah blah blah. Like I need a 29 year old who has never left NYC and writes genius 9,000 page novels in some dank basement apartment to tell me what’s needed to be a real writer like him, or to lecture me on a degree he’s never earned.
You know what I find in many writer interviews? Lots of self-serving bullshit from writers who are using the interview to work out their own aesthetic crises and insecurities.
Ryan,
I hear you. I’m suspicious of any statement claiming to know what’s “needed” to write well, blah blah blah. Like I need a 29 year old who has never left NYC and writes genius 9,000 page novels in some dank basement apartment to tell me what’s needed to be a real writer like him, or to lecture me on a degree he’s never earned.
You know what I find in many writer interviews? Lots of self-serving bullshit from writers who are using the interview to work out their own aesthetic crises and insecurities.
aw, thank you stephen. i wish i knew better what i meant by surrender.
And hang on to that line, stephen. It may never see the light of day, but anything that acts as inspiration for us has its own value. Don’t undervalue things just because they will never see publication.
Michael F,
I agree. However, that may be because those interviews naturally draw our attention. When I really go hunting for them (not often), there are many kind, generous, and thoughtful interviews given by authors who seem to be really well-adjusted. The shit just catches our eye more, I think.
aw, thank you stephen. i wish i knew better what i meant by surrender.
And hang on to that line, stephen. It may never see the light of day, but anything that acts as inspiration for us has its own value. Don’t undervalue things just because they will never see publication.
Michael F,
I agree. However, that may be because those interviews naturally draw our attention. When I really go hunting for them (not often), there are many kind, generous, and thoughtful interviews given by authors who seem to be really well-adjusted. The shit just catches our eye more, I think.
oh for sure, ryan, and thanks, i was just being self-deprecatory. i have the lovely opportunity to self-publish with this magazine i’m doing, so i’m just opting for a different piece over that one. but that line has something of my ongoing ethos.
oh for sure, ryan, and thanks, i was just being self-deprecatory. i have the lovely opportunity to self-publish with this magazine i’m doing, so i’m just opting for a different piece over that one. but that line has something of my ongoing ethos.
Salinger says it perfectly:
“Do you know what I was smiling at? You wrote down that you were a writer by profession. It sounded to me like the loveliest euphemism I had ever heard. When was writing ever your profession? It’s never been anything but your religion. Never. I’m a little overexcited now. Since it is your religion, do you know what you will be asked when you die? But let me tell you first what you won’t be asked. You won’t be asked if you were working on a wonderful, moving piece of writing when you died. You won’t be asked if it was long or short, sad or funny, published or unpublished. You won’t be asked if you were in good or bad form while you were working on it. You won’t even be asked if it was the one piece of writing you would have been working on if you had known your time would be up when it was finished—I think only poor Soren K. will get asked that. I’m so sure you’ll only get asked two questions. Were most of your stars out? Were you busy writing your heart out? If only you knew how easy it would be for you to say yes to both questions.”
—J.D. Salinger, Seymour: An Introduction
Salinger says it perfectly:
“Do you know what I was smiling at? You wrote down that you were a writer by profession. It sounded to me like the loveliest euphemism I had ever heard. When was writing ever your profession? It’s never been anything but your religion. Never. I’m a little overexcited now. Since it is your religion, do you know what you will be asked when you die? But let me tell you first what you won’t be asked. You won’t be asked if you were working on a wonderful, moving piece of writing when you died. You won’t be asked if it was long or short, sad or funny, published or unpublished. You won’t be asked if you were in good or bad form while you were working on it. You won’t even be asked if it was the one piece of writing you would have been working on if you had known your time would be up when it was finished—I think only poor Soren K. will get asked that. I’m so sure you’ll only get asked two questions. Were most of your stars out? Were you busy writing your heart out? If only you knew how easy it would be for you to say yes to both questions.”
—J.D. Salinger, Seymour: An Introduction
Ah, yes, totally. You have just put me in a very blissful place, posting that. I’m going to go for a walk and savor it. Thank you. I pinned that passage to my wall for a long long time, but then I moved and lost it. Perhaps it is time for a reprint, repin.
Ah, yes, totally. You have just put me in a very blissful place, posting that. I’m going to go for a walk and savor it. Thank you. I pinned that passage to my wall for a long long time, but then I moved and lost it. Perhaps it is time for a reprint, repin.
sweet, ryan
sweet, ryan
“Ryan,
I hear you. I’m suspicious of any statement claiming to know what’s “needed” to write well, blah blah blah. Like I need a 29 year old who has never left NYC and writes genius 9,000 page novels in some dank basement apartment to tell me what’s needed to be a real writer like him, or to lecture me on a degree he’s never earned.”
Q. How did the book come into being? When did you start it, how did it evolve, when did you decide it was finished (or over)?
JC. I began around my 21st birthday, a week before 9/11. The book changed as I changed, gained pages, lost pages, mostly gained pages. I wrote in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland. The Baltics to the Balkans. Romania, Moldova. On trains and buses, mostly trains. I worked as a journalist, the dollar still strong but every day getting weaker. The EU encroached. The East was soon West, was soon over. I was eight, nine-years-old when communism fell, I’d arrived too late to the Bloc. Vilnius I had a desk in my hostelroom. Marienbad I had an entire apartment—plus a Mercedes—thanks to a friend. I wrote in Köln, Germany, a grandmother’s hometown. I wrote in Sárospatak, Hungary, another grandmother’s hometown. I spent a month of winter writing in Oświęcim, Poland, or Auschwitz, living in an underheated pension, helping direct Israeli tourists to Polish prostitutes after the bar closed (the bar, singular, not bars: I should’ve charged the Israelis, or asked the whores for commission). By 2005 when I moved back to NYC I had a 3-4,000-page ms. Subplots cut: a Spinoza section, set in seventeenth century Netherlands; a section written entirely in transliterated Yiddish; a section written entirely in Hebrew (untransliterated, which is to say with Hebrew characters); a section set in (the nonexistent Jewish) Heaven, which I severed to form my previous novel, A Heaven of Others; at least three other recipes, two scenes set at the White House, two in “Palestein,” and numerous recurring conversations between trees or people named for trees (this was never quite clear: Apfelbaum, Birnbaum, etc., straight through to Zitronenbaum), of whom only a Feigenbaum remains. As for when I knew the book was finished: I’ll only know when my father finishes reading it.
“Ryan,
I hear you. I’m suspicious of any statement claiming to know what’s “needed” to write well, blah blah blah. Like I need a 29 year old who has never left NYC and writes genius 9,000 page novels in some dank basement apartment to tell me what’s needed to be a real writer like him, or to lecture me on a degree he’s never earned.”
Q. How did the book come into being? When did you start it, how did it evolve, when did you decide it was finished (or over)?
JC. I began around my 21st birthday, a week before 9/11. The book changed as I changed, gained pages, lost pages, mostly gained pages. I wrote in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland. The Baltics to the Balkans. Romania, Moldova. On trains and buses, mostly trains. I worked as a journalist, the dollar still strong but every day getting weaker. The EU encroached. The East was soon West, was soon over. I was eight, nine-years-old when communism fell, I’d arrived too late to the Bloc. Vilnius I had a desk in my hostelroom. Marienbad I had an entire apartment—plus a Mercedes—thanks to a friend. I wrote in Köln, Germany, a grandmother’s hometown. I wrote in Sárospatak, Hungary, another grandmother’s hometown. I spent a month of winter writing in Oświęcim, Poland, or Auschwitz, living in an underheated pension, helping direct Israeli tourists to Polish prostitutes after the bar closed (the bar, singular, not bars: I should’ve charged the Israelis, or asked the whores for commission). By 2005 when I moved back to NYC I had a 3-4,000-page ms. Subplots cut: a Spinoza section, set in seventeenth century Netherlands; a section written entirely in transliterated Yiddish; a section written entirely in Hebrew (untransliterated, which is to say with Hebrew characters); a section set in (the nonexistent Jewish) Heaven, which I severed to form my previous novel, A Heaven of Others; at least three other recipes, two scenes set at the White House, two in “Palestein,” and numerous recurring conversations between trees or people named for trees (this was never quite clear: Apfelbaum, Birnbaum, etc., straight through to Zitronenbaum), of whom only a Feigenbaum remains. As for when I knew the book was finished: I’ll only know when my father finishes reading it.
“You know what I find in many writer interviews? Lots of self-serving bullshit from writers who are using the interview to work out their own aesthetic crises and insecurities.”
what else would you want? what fucking pen they use? time of day? green sweater?
“You know what I find in many writer interviews? Lots of self-serving bullshit from writers who are using the interview to work out their own aesthetic crises and insecurities.”
what else would you want? what fucking pen they use? time of day? green sweater?
Okay, you got me: he’s only spent most of his life a MARTA ride away from Manhattan.
Okay, you got me: he’s only spent most of his life a MARTA ride away from Manhattan.
i feel like butthead…you said “tinkle”
love it
i feel like butthead…you said “tinkle”
love it
What do you want More clubbing of baby seals? More dead horses?
Or, how about we not let our idolization of certain writers prevent us from calling them on their bullshit in interviews? Isn’t it possible to like a writer’s work without defending everything he utters in an interview?
*What do you want?
What do you want More clubbing of baby seals? More dead horses?
Or, how about we not let our idolization of certain writers prevent us from calling them on their bullshit in interviews? Isn’t it possible to like a writer’s work without defending everything he utters in an interview?
*What do you want?
MTA, sorry. lol
MTA, sorry. lol
idolization of writers?
i’ll pass.
idolization of writers?
i’ll pass.
Not sure I understand your response, Sean. Doesn’t Cohen have a pretty big following here?
Not sure I understand your response, Sean. Doesn’t Cohen have a pretty big following here?
What is there to understand. Idol is a big root word.
To reflect; “What do you want?” from the book you are reading? Actually, from the author. Those are two entities.
The problem is I’m not going to read every comment above so maybe my comment seems a digression. I read the last ten or so.
So.
Why idolize an author. Ever?
How is that useful?
What is there to understand. Idol is a big root word.
To reflect; “What do you want?” from the book you are reading? Actually, from the author. Those are two entities.
The problem is I’m not going to read every comment above so maybe my comment seems a digression. I read the last ten or so.
So.
Why idolize an author. Ever?
How is that useful?
So is “conviction,” and even “craft,” esp. since “craft” doesn’t occur in a vacuum.
I’m not suggesting that people should idolize writers. I haven’t read Cohen’s work, but he’s been covered here in the past and seems to have a decent following; that’s all I’m saying. I realize that “idolize” is a big word, and a bit melodramatic in this context (that was my intent).
So is “conviction,” and even “craft,” esp. since “craft” doesn’t occur in a vacuum.
I’m not suggesting that people should idolize writers. I haven’t read Cohen’s work, but he’s been covered here in the past and seems to have a decent following; that’s all I’m saying. I realize that “idolize” is a big word, and a bit melodramatic in this context (that was my intent).
Michael, I’m not even considering your statement within the context of this post, rather, what would I want from any author interview. I would most definitely like to see more working out of aesthetic crises and insecurities. It would be much more refreshing than most of the drivel that gets spread in most interviews. YOU have something against Cohen it appears that is flavoring your comments something bitter.
Michael, I’m not even considering your statement within the context of this post, rather, what would I want from any author interview. I would most definitely like to see more working out of aesthetic crises and insecurities. It would be much more refreshing than most of the drivel that gets spread in most interviews. YOU have something against Cohen it appears that is flavoring your comments something bitter.
Michael — helps to read the article. You’ve made some pretty interesting assumptions. Why would he have to leave NYC, though? What amount of travel is necessary to write a good book?
Ryan — Your way could work too. It’s just not mine. I’m not a surrenderer. Whatever makes work happen. Anything at all. MFA or no MFA. I think that may be what “conviction” is in the end — the work happening.
Michael — helps to read the article. You’ve made some pretty interesting assumptions. Why would he have to leave NYC, though? What amount of travel is necessary to write a good book?
Ryan — Your way could work too. It’s just not mine. I’m not a surrenderer. Whatever makes work happen. Anything at all. MFA or no MFA. I think that may be what “conviction” is in the end — the work happening.
Mike,
I would alter that to ‘whatever makes good work happen.’ There are shitty ways to work.
Interesting that you claim you’re not a surrender? I suspect we’re all probably talking about the same thing anyway, which is why I was hesitant to proceed unless we could hash out some meaning of writerly conviction.
Mike,
I would alter that to ‘whatever makes good work happen.’ There are shitty ways to work.
Interesting that you claim you’re not a surrender? I suspect we’re all probably talking about the same thing anyway, which is why I was hesitant to proceed unless we could hash out some meaning of writerly conviction.
Gene,
How could I have something against him when I don’t even know him and haven’t read his work? Note that I haven’t said anything about his books. All of my comments have been a response to his points in the interview.
YOU need to accept the fact that when a writer puts these kind of comments out into the public domain, they—THE COMMENTS—are fair game.
Some of you will eat up anything if it’s presented as “edgy” or subversive; all that seems to matter is the presentation. Nevermind originality or the writer being informed or knowing what in the hell he’s talking about.
Gene,
How could I have something against him when I don’t even know him and haven’t read his work? Note that I haven’t said anything about his books. All of my comments have been a response to his points in the interview.
YOU need to accept the fact that when a writer puts these kind of comments out into the public domain, they—THE COMMENTS—are fair game.
Some of you will eat up anything if it’s presented as “edgy” or subversive; all that seems to matter is the presentation. Nevermind originality or the writer being informed or knowing what in the hell he’s talking about.
rather, what would I want from any author interview. I would most definitely like to see more working out of aesthetic crises and insecurities.
___________________
I would too, but it’s possible to do this without coming across like an idiot.
rather, what would I want from any author interview. I would most definitely like to see more working out of aesthetic crises and insecurities.
___________________
I would too, but it’s possible to do this without coming across like an idiot.
well no i was confused is all. i was wondering.
that seems fair.
well no i was confused is all. i was wondering.
that seems fair.