Uncategorized
John Gardner Bitch Slap
I planned to keep quiet about this, maybe ignore it until some other posts pushed it into the archives, but after a few days, I still couldn’t stop worrying about it. Also, I knew Blake Butler wouldn’t leave me alone until I said something mean for Mean Week, so here’s a shot.
Recently, this guy talked some clever shit in the comments section on my post about new poetry journal Rooms Outlast Us. He said something like how HTMLGIANT and the people who write for it have some moral obligation to keep an eye on small presses so that all those struggling poets out there are treated fairly. He said:
The people who publish Rooms Outlast Us might be righteous people but the chapbook contest they are running is bad karma and hopefully until they change their guidelines no one will send manuscripts for possible publication. A twentry dollar entry fee for essentially nothing is way bad and everyone who enters should feel like they’ve been screwed under the current guidelines. At the very least they should give everyone who enters a one year subscription to their ‘zine. The winner should at least get a token 100 or 200 dollar prize for winning. Otherwise it ain’t legit. And is a waste of everyone’s hard earned money.
After I suggested he email them to ask for specifics and reasons behind the contest guidelines, he lamed out:
It would be nice if they listened to little-old-nobody me. I like to think others are in agreement with me. I mean, they have a 200 copy print run. If you are the winner unless you are shane jones, blake butler, tao lin or one of the other superstars of indie lit it’s not likely you are going to sell that many. In the meantime, the losers who are footing the bill for the winner’s chapbook (and maybe a few Happy meals for the publishers) are getting nothing for their selfless contribution. And being HTML GIANT is now the hub of indie lit info they should feel slightly obliged (morally) to post about it. I mean, as nice as posts with tits in it are nice to have lets counterbalance that with helping out less knowledgable writers and holding small presses accountable for questionable practices that are a miniscule cut above vanity presses.
Now, I’m sure Christopher Robbins is a nice guy. He knows his stuff. He’s linked his blog to lots of indie lit ‘superstars,’ which is step one to becoming famous, I think. He drinks beer and has a goatee. He’s down with other people’s poetry. And he kind of looks like Tom Green, which is awesome. Seriously. I am being serious here. And I hope he doesn’t want to murder me after this, because, really, I don’t feel personal hatred towards him. I don’t even know who he is?
But, on this whole matter, I have to respectfully say that he’s full of shit.
Here’s why:
1) Rooms Outlast Us and other fledgling literary journals/presses represent great opportunites for little-old-nobody writers to get their work read. Editors new to the scene are especially open to writers new to the scene. Editors new to the scene all like to think they’re going to ‘discover’ someone, and writers new to the scene all hope to be that someone. Of course, that’s ridiculous for all sorts of complicated reasons, but, the point is, for new writers, these smaller journals are fine places to start publishing. (And yes, it is a risk to join up with a new project, one that hasn’t been tested yet, but so is sending your subs to Poetry every sixty days).
2) A contest like the one that Rooms is running may be expensive to enter and may not have the ‘reputation’ that a contest at a more established press has, but again, see #1. As far as the ‘reward’ goes, who the fuck cares? If that’s what Rooms wants to do, and you don’t like it, don’t enter (and remember, you can always submit to their regular reading period anyhow if you still want to be a part of that project). But, think about this: the reward at Rooms certainly isn’t ‘nothing.’ Some might see it as pretty generous, given the fact that it’s a new fucking press, the editors of which are giving away half the proceeds to the winner – that’s half the income they would make off the chaps they sell, income that could be used to improve the journal.
3) Little-old-nobody won’t sell all 200 chaps? How do people think indie lit ‘superstars’ like Blake Butler and Tao Lin and Shane Jones got started? Self-promotion. Networking. Showing an unselfish interest in other people’s projects. Becoming involved in the whole awkward mess of it. If you have the opportunity to get 200 of your chapbooks into the hands of people who care about reading, I think you would do whatever you could to promote yourself: sell them, sell them at half price, give them away, exchange sexy pictures, etc.
4) Losers are losers. If you enter a contest, do so with the expectation that when you lose, you don’t mind your money going to support the journal/press. Don’t be selfish, but do your research and choose a journal/press that you have some good feelings for.
5) Happy Meals? To suggest that three editors would skim cash off of a project like this is mean-weak. Sometimes I wonder if authors really know the costs of starting up a journal/press and then keeping it afloat. Remember that small mag The Strange Fruit? Remember Cranky Literary Journal? Remember what happened to the print annuals Pindeldyboz had to stop doing? For a good look at what goes into starting and running a small magazine, check out the blog archives over at The Avery Anthology.
6) I don’t care about vanity presses. I am stupid. This is dumb. I am getting bored with myself.
And as far as HTMLGIANT’s moral obligation? Give me a break. Has anyone noticed the kind of lame shit that’s posted here? The last thing anyone who writes for this blog has is obligations, especially moral ones. We’re too busy bathing in all of the cash we make, looking at online porn, and hanging out with the superstars of indie literature to care about balancing the content of our posts. Yes, when we see something ridiculous, we’ll post it. And when we want to look at sexy pictures, we’ll post them too.
So if anyone here has a moral obligation, it’s the individual writer. Quit waiting for people to do stuff for you. Gather information and make your own decisions. Read as many sites as you can, not just HTMLGIANT. Write emails to editors to ask them about their contests, their submission guidelines; keep them accountable. And if you present yourself as a less knowledgeable writer, then get off the righteous lecture circuit.
Tags: john gardner, pindeldyboz
commenting from my gold coin scrooge mcduck bathtub: good ryan, i knew you had it in you. how much whiskey was also? ;)
commenting from my gold coin scrooge mcduck bathtub: good ryan, i knew you had it in you. how much whiskey was also? ;)
i like this post. i am probably responsible for some of the lame shit referenced. i myself am lame shit. i love you ryan call.
i like this post. i am probably responsible for some of the lame shit referenced. i myself am lame shit. i love you ryan call.
Good post. Thanks, Ryan. Lots of stuff I “needed” to read in this, so I’m glad you wrote it. I feel sort of validated or something. Like I’m on the right track.
Good post. Thanks, Ryan. Lots of stuff I “needed” to read in this, so I’m glad you wrote it. I feel sort of validated or something. Like I’m on the right track.
Donald Barthelme described _On Moral Fiction_ as a St. Valentine’s Day Massacre– “John took all his contemporaries into a garage and machine-gunned us all–with full moral intent, I’m sure.”
Way to throw a gauntlet, Grendel.
Donald Barthelme described _On Moral Fiction_ as a St. Valentine’s Day Massacre– “John took all his contemporaries into a garage and machine-gunned us all–with full moral intent, I’m sure.”
Way to throw a gauntlet, Grendel.
good post. i agree and disagree with both of you on different things eighty percent of the time on days of the wwek that contain an a and only after nine a.m.
but really, to suggest that only shane, blake, and tao can sell 200 books is riduculous. before davy rothbart was davy rothbart and he was just some punk in ann arbor. he self published lone surfer and was selling 200 books a fucking week out of his trunk. then simon and schuster picked it up.
i can name 200 indie writers off the top of my head who can sell 200 books the first day its out.
the point is, its all about the hustle. you dont have to be blake to sell 200 books, you have to get off your ass and make moves. so many people just want things the easy way without being willing to put in the work.
good post. i agree and disagree with both of you on different things eighty percent of the time on days of the wwek that contain an a and only after nine a.m.
but really, to suggest that only shane, blake, and tao can sell 200 books is riduculous. before davy rothbart was davy rothbart and he was just some punk in ann arbor. he self published lone surfer and was selling 200 books a fucking week out of his trunk. then simon and schuster picked it up.
i can name 200 indie writers off the top of my head who can sell 200 books the first day its out.
the point is, its all about the hustle. you dont have to be blake to sell 200 books, you have to get off your ass and make moves. so many people just want things the easy way without being willing to put in the work.
The only thing I’ll concede is that HTML GIANT doesn’t have a moral obligation. That might’ve been going too far. I sit at home and watch Jacks Big Music Show and Yo Gabba Gabba all day long for christ’s sake. I understand, also now, that it’s OK to talk smack about the big guys i.e. Narrative. It’s ok to to call their 20 dollar reading fee “criminal” as Blake did or to say it’s excessive especially considering it doesn’t include a subscription as Justin pointed out in the comments section. But it’s not OK to hold the little guys to task who are probably very well meaning and struggling and feeling their way through their new business of being a small press. My criticisms should help them out. Make them better and stronger and more competitive. My belief is that those who run chapbook contests especially with a steep entry fee such as twenty dollars should at the very least offer all entries a subscription to their magazine. If they have to make a smaller print run of the chapbook to do so then so be it. And it doesn’t hurt to wait and see how well your lit mag does before diving in to a chapbook contest. Statistics show the majority of new ‘zines do not last especially a print only poetry mag. It always great to have a new lit mag join the market and I wish them all the luck in the world but with regards to the chapbook contest exploitation is exploitation and their lack of experience and ignorance of running a contest is not an excuse.
The only thing I’ll concede is that HTML GIANT doesn’t have a moral obligation. That might’ve been going too far. I sit at home and watch Jacks Big Music Show and Yo Gabba Gabba all day long for christ’s sake. I understand, also now, that it’s OK to talk smack about the big guys i.e. Narrative. It’s ok to to call their 20 dollar reading fee “criminal” as Blake did or to say it’s excessive especially considering it doesn’t include a subscription as Justin pointed out in the comments section. But it’s not OK to hold the little guys to task who are probably very well meaning and struggling and feeling their way through their new business of being a small press. My criticisms should help them out. Make them better and stronger and more competitive. My belief is that those who run chapbook contests especially with a steep entry fee such as twenty dollars should at the very least offer all entries a subscription to their magazine. If they have to make a smaller print run of the chapbook to do so then so be it. And it doesn’t hurt to wait and see how well your lit mag does before diving in to a chapbook contest. Statistics show the majority of new ‘zines do not last especially a print only poetry mag. It always great to have a new lit mag join the market and I wish them all the luck in the world but with regards to the chapbook contest exploitation is exploitation and their lack of experience and ignorance of running a contest is not an excuse.
If you feel exploited, then don’t submit. Other ‘new’ authors will gamble on the contest and one of them will win, and it will be someone who feels that the contest is worth it, and that person will then have a nice little chapbook. The ‘free market’ will dictate whether or not Rooms is successful with that kind of contest running. If enough people share your opinion, Rooms will have no chap subs and will have to rethink.
I’m not saying it’s not okay to criticize the little guys. Criticize the little guys all you want. I’m sure I can go find some little guy to criticize. Maybe I’ll do that next. It’s actually a good idea. But your criticism went too far, in my opinion.
(And I do think you have good points too: wait to set up the contest, offer subscirptions to everyone, lower the reading fee, whatever.)
I have yet to find a fucked up small press, aside from Pavement Saw and Cider Press, (and those fucked up for different reasons), that is seriously intent on ripping off innocent writers.
Maybe I’m just naive.
If you feel exploited, then don’t submit. Other ‘new’ authors will gamble on the contest and one of them will win, and it will be someone who feels that the contest is worth it, and that person will then have a nice little chapbook. The ‘free market’ will dictate whether or not Rooms is successful with that kind of contest running. If enough people share your opinion, Rooms will have no chap subs and will have to rethink.
I’m not saying it’s not okay to criticize the little guys. Criticize the little guys all you want. I’m sure I can go find some little guy to criticize. Maybe I’ll do that next. It’s actually a good idea. But your criticism went too far, in my opinion.
(And I do think you have good points too: wait to set up the contest, offer subscirptions to everyone, lower the reading fee, whatever.)
I have yet to find a fucked up small press, aside from Pavement Saw and Cider Press, (and those fucked up for different reasons), that is seriously intent on ripping off innocent writers.
Maybe I’m just naive.
I like John Gardner, Justin. Let’s fight.
I like John Gardner, Justin. Let’s fight.
Like it when he does what, Mike?
Like it when he does what, Mike?
i didnt make it through on moral fiction
i didnt make it through on moral fiction
Ryan,
If you’re naive than so am I as I don’t think most small presses are out to rip anyone off either. I do feel bad that I didn’t take your original advice and email them first before I offered further criticism. It’s quite possible they would’ve said you have a good point thanks for pointing it out or they could’ve said, fuck you we’ll run our press as we see fit but I should’ve giving them the benefit to respond. In light of that, they did respond in the original comment section with a response that was ignorant of their own guidelines. All that being said, there was probably all of three people who read that original comment thread which is now buried three to four pages back that has now been brought even more attention by this newest post. So, for the record, I do not think the publishers of Rooms Outlast Us are trying to rip people off. I am sure they are decent people with a love of poetry. I hope this discussion will help them and not hurt them.
peace, love, & understanding
the lion sleeps tonight
Ryan,
If you’re naive than so am I as I don’t think most small presses are out to rip anyone off either. I do feel bad that I didn’t take your original advice and email them first before I offered further criticism. It’s quite possible they would’ve said you have a good point thanks for pointing it out or they could’ve said, fuck you we’ll run our press as we see fit but I should’ve giving them the benefit to respond. In light of that, they did respond in the original comment section with a response that was ignorant of their own guidelines. All that being said, there was probably all of three people who read that original comment thread which is now buried three to four pages back that has now been brought even more attention by this newest post. So, for the record, I do not think the publishers of Rooms Outlast Us are trying to rip people off. I am sure they are decent people with a love of poetry. I hope this discussion will help them and not hurt them.
peace, love, & understanding
the lion sleeps tonight
I should also add that I am honored to be included in mean week.
I should also add that I am honored to be included in mean week.
i like how you guys use me as an example of someone who can ‘definitely’ sell 200. right now i am sure my mom is gonna buy 2 of my first book maybe. and my aunt. that’s 3. from there forward its all gravy
fuck you guys seriously ;)
also, ryan you succeeded in making molly pro mean week, that is the greatest accomplishment of all
i like how you guys use me as an example of someone who can ‘definitely’ sell 200. right now i am sure my mom is gonna buy 2 of my first book maybe. and my aunt. that’s 3. from there forward its all gravy
fuck you guys seriously ;)
also, ryan you succeeded in making molly pro mean week, that is the greatest accomplishment of all
i want to interrupt mean week by telling sam that i love him, then i want to perpetuate the meanness by giving you some advice from sam about meanness:
“The best way to get rid of someone you hate is to call them over to use your slip and slide, and before they come over you dig a really big hole at the end of the slip and slide and line the bottom of the hole with knives. Then cover the hole with leaves and be like, “oh no, you go first, I insist.” Then when they get ready to go, shoot them in the back of the head and uh, I don’t know, figure out something to do with that big hole you dug, because that could hurt someone.”
i want to interrupt mean week by telling sam that i love him, then i want to perpetuate the meanness by giving you some advice from sam about meanness:
“The best way to get rid of someone you hate is to call them over to use your slip and slide, and before they come over you dig a really big hole at the end of the slip and slide and line the bottom of the hole with knives. Then cover the hole with leaves and be like, “oh no, you go first, I insist.” Then when they get ready to go, shoot them in the back of the head and uh, I don’t know, figure out something to do with that big hole you dug, because that could hurt someone.”
the guy in the picture looks like bruce vilanch
the guy in the picture looks like bruce vilanch
i also think the difference between the narrative post and the rooms post
is that narrative is charging $20 just to read for publication, which is unheard of, and rooms is charging $20 for a contest with publication prize and etc., which is standard
i also think the difference between the narrative post and the rooms post
is that narrative is charging $20 just to read for publication, which is unheard of, and rooms is charging $20 for a contest with publication prize and etc., which is standard
Chris, I really do think this discussion will help them and not hurt them. That is the beauty of Mean Week(?). I also hope you’re getting good hits on your blog.
Where is Ryan Manning?
I have no idea why they miscommented on their guidelines in that post – it was pretty funny, yes.
After I win the Rooms Outlast Us chapbook contest, I will report back to everyone on my experience.
Chris, I really do think this discussion will help them and not hurt them. That is the beauty of Mean Week(?). I also hope you’re getting good hits on your blog.
Where is Ryan Manning?
I have no idea why they miscommented on their guidelines in that post – it was pretty funny, yes.
After I win the Rooms Outlast Us chapbook contest, I will report back to everyone on my experience.
blake butler,
how do you use emoticons on this thing?
john gardner died in a motorcycle accident.
blake butler,
how do you use emoticons on this thing?
john gardner died in a motorcycle accident.
Yes, but Narrative is also giving 150 dollars to everyone published, 500 dollars to someone to five different people a week and 4000 dollars to one person every year. On the flip side, most poetry book and chapbook contests that have an entry or reading fee usually include a cash prize for the winner and/or give free subscriptions or at least a few issues or maybe even a copy of the winning chapbbok to all entrants, at the very least. Otherwise, it seems to me they are running a contest to earn money to pay for their poetry magazine. There is no risk for the publishers. All the risk is on the entrants, the winner and losers. The losers are out twenty bucks and if they want to read the magazine have to also buy a subscription. The winner won 200 chapbooks and a year subscription (to a magazine that might not last a year for many reasons) that himself and the other entrants paid for. That the publishers have no confidence in by even offering a small monetary cash prize, but will gladly take half the proceeds for.
Yes, but Narrative is also giving 150 dollars to everyone published, 500 dollars to someone to five different people a week and 4000 dollars to one person every year. On the flip side, most poetry book and chapbook contests that have an entry or reading fee usually include a cash prize for the winner and/or give free subscriptions or at least a few issues or maybe even a copy of the winning chapbbok to all entrants, at the very least. Otherwise, it seems to me they are running a contest to earn money to pay for their poetry magazine. There is no risk for the publishers. All the risk is on the entrants, the winner and losers. The losers are out twenty bucks and if they want to read the magazine have to also buy a subscription. The winner won 200 chapbooks and a year subscription (to a magazine that might not last a year for many reasons) that himself and the other entrants paid for. That the publishers have no confidence in by even offering a small monetary cash prize, but will gladly take half the proceeds for.
This doesn’t seem like a mean week post. It seems like an anti-mean post, as in being mean at someone for being mean, but ultimately trying to be nice to the press. Someone should write a mean post against blake for being so mean to narrative.
This doesn’t seem like a mean week post. It seems like an anti-mean post, as in being mean at someone for being mean, but ultimately trying to be nice to the press. Someone should write a mean post against blake for being so mean to narrative.
approximately 16,000 children will no longer exist due to starvation by night’s end.
we are argueing over which poetry chapbook contest is best
i agree with ryan call
blake butler sucks on kitty litter nuggets for nutrition
approximately 16,000 children will no longer exist due to starvation by night’s end.
we are argueing over which poetry chapbook contest is best
i agree with ryan call
blake butler sucks on kitty litter nuggets for nutrition
yes, darby, i was being mean to someone i did not agree with. i was being nice to the press.
what’s wrong with running a contest to help pay for a magazine? there is risk all over the place for writers and editors: every time writers send out subs they risk rejection, getting fucked over, or getting made fun of and losing their contest fee (in exchange they often get a copy of the journal – whoo hoo). when editors start a press they risk other things, like, losing their own money they put in to start the press, risk losing other people’s money that helped the press (contests, donations, etc).
yes, darby, i was being mean to someone i did not agree with. i was being nice to the press.
what’s wrong with running a contest to help pay for a magazine? there is risk all over the place for writers and editors: every time writers send out subs they risk rejection, getting fucked over, or getting made fun of and losing their contest fee (in exchange they often get a copy of the journal – whoo hoo). when editors start a press they risk other things, like, losing their own money they put in to start the press, risk losing other people’s money that helped the press (contests, donations, etc).
I’m not saying you don’t have a point, I’m sort of in agreement with you, but not completely. I don’t get too worked up over contests and fees, etc. I’m just saying if the definition of ‘mean’ is that you can be mean to someone for being mean, then the whole concept of mean week kind of crumbles for me.
I don’t agree with the idea of because there’s risk all over the place that it’s okay to inject more, this is the is/ought fallacy.
Also, the idea that anyone has the option to ignore it (just don’t submit, don’t pay the fee) as a means of putting the issue to rest, I don’t buy. That’s like saying if you don’t agree with the war, then just don’t join the army.
I’m not saying you don’t have a point, I’m sort of in agreement with you, but not completely. I don’t get too worked up over contests and fees, etc. I’m just saying if the definition of ‘mean’ is that you can be mean to someone for being mean, then the whole concept of mean week kind of crumbles for me.
I don’t agree with the idea of because there’s risk all over the place that it’s okay to inject more, this is the is/ought fallacy.
Also, the idea that anyone has the option to ignore it (just don’t submit, don’t pay the fee) as a means of putting the issue to rest, I don’t buy. That’s like saying if you don’t agree with the war, then just don’t join the army.
Ryan,
Let’s keep focused here. We are talking about Rooms Outlast Us and their press Articles Incorporated. Having not put out anything yet, magazine or chapbook, they have risked no money. The only thing they are risking is the time put into this endeaver. If the chapbbok contest is successful (at a 20 dollar entry fee) they will make more than enough to pay for the 200 print run and probably the magazine itself plus they’ll earn half the proceed from the sales of the chapbook. My only argument is that they should offer at least a monetary prize to the winner, even if it’s against his future earnings. Nothing wrong with offering a measly 100 cash prize to the winner. That’s just five entrants. This is all pretty much standard at least for contests with an entry fee of especially $20 or more. You can get a better deal from Lulu.com. I agree let them fail or succeed on their own merit.
Ryan,
Let’s keep focused here. We are talking about Rooms Outlast Us and their press Articles Incorporated. Having not put out anything yet, magazine or chapbook, they have risked no money. The only thing they are risking is the time put into this endeaver. If the chapbbok contest is successful (at a 20 dollar entry fee) they will make more than enough to pay for the 200 print run and probably the magazine itself plus they’ll earn half the proceed from the sales of the chapbook. My only argument is that they should offer at least a monetary prize to the winner, even if it’s against his future earnings. Nothing wrong with offering a measly 100 cash prize to the winner. That’s just five entrants. This is all pretty much standard at least for contests with an entry fee of especially $20 or more. You can get a better deal from Lulu.com. I agree let them fail or succeed on their own merit.
Ryan Call: Ryan Manning is busy. Ryan Manning has some exciting information that, hopefully, he’ll share with the rest of the world soon.
Blake: hmmmmm…..I don’t know. I think Jimmy’s workshop post made me semi-pro-mean week. Still, I’d like to continue bashing mean week. Mean week is mean. Mean week is not nice. Mean week has scary pictures. When is there going to be a puppies and rainbows week?
Jimmy: What about Asian writers in workshops? And what’s the deal with all these South Asian writers everywhere? Did you see who won the Booker?
Ryan Call: Ryan Manning is busy. Ryan Manning has some exciting information that, hopefully, he’ll share with the rest of the world soon.
Blake: hmmmmm…..I don’t know. I think Jimmy’s workshop post made me semi-pro-mean week. Still, I’d like to continue bashing mean week. Mean week is mean. Mean week is not nice. Mean week has scary pictures. When is there going to be a puppies and rainbows week?
Jimmy: What about Asian writers in workshops? And what’s the deal with all these South Asian writers everywhere? Did you see who won the Booker?
what was your concept of mean week? maybe mine was different?
i dont think anyone is injecting more risk into the publishing world. i don’t think that is what i was saying. the risk is already there – Rooms decided to manage that risk differently. so i think i was trying to describe how it works – that there is always risk on both sides in publishing. i think that to suggest that only writers face risk out there is wrong.
if one person ignores a contest, it wont make a difference that much, so yeah, i agree with you. but if more people understand why that person ignores a contest and then everyone ignores the contest even more, so much so that the journal gets no subs at all (or gets three or whatever), then won’t that affect how the journal decides to do things next time?
what was your concept of mean week? maybe mine was different?
i dont think anyone is injecting more risk into the publishing world. i don’t think that is what i was saying. the risk is already there – Rooms decided to manage that risk differently. so i think i was trying to describe how it works – that there is always risk on both sides in publishing. i think that to suggest that only writers face risk out there is wrong.
if one person ignores a contest, it wont make a difference that much, so yeah, i agree with you. but if more people understand why that person ignores a contest and then everyone ignores the contest even more, so much so that the journal gets no subs at all (or gets three or whatever), then won’t that affect how the journal decides to do things next time?
What is my concept of mean week. That is a good question. It is too big, maybe I will write my own post on it.
I think you changed my mind on that last note. Ignoring a press can make an impact if enough people participate, I agree. If enough people ignore a war, governments will simply impose drafts.
What is my concept of mean week. That is a good question. It is too big, maybe I will write my own post on it.
I think you changed my mind on that last note. Ignoring a press can make an impact if enough people participate, I agree. If enough people ignore a war, governments will simply impose drafts.
sorry, i will try to focus. my brain is hurting. heres what i think you’re saying Rooms needs to do: complimentary subscription to entrants in the contest, winner receives $100 prize and half the proceeds from the sales.
am i right?
here’s what Rooms is doing (from what i can tell): half the proceeds of sales to winner, complimentary subscription to the winner, and ten copies of the book.
i honestly feel like we’re arguing over tiny things here now (and less meanly?). ive seen contests that dont offer anything to the entrants, ive seen ones that do. ive seen $20 chap contests, ive seen $10 chap contests. ive seen ones that give authors 10% of sales and 150 copies of the book, ive seen $1000 cash prizes. each press is different here. the standard seems to be that the author gets something. i agree.
so, sell the rooms chap for, say, $10 and sell all of them, that’s maybe $2k, half to winner half to press (- the 10 copies that the author gets out of the print run…so minus $100). it looks like to me that Rooms has tried to involve the author in the selling, right? that’s good incentive to try to sell all of the books you can. theyre managing the risk differently, trying to avoid having 150 copies of the book sitting around their apartment while the winner walks off with $1k and 50.
if they get 100 entrants (which would be fantastic), thats another $2k, right? take out of that the cost of printing the journal, and printing the chaps – i admit i dont know how much that’ll cost. but to me, it seems like they’ll have enough to run the press/journal. maybe i’m wrong here? much of this i dont know, because i dont know how they plan to distribute things, how many entrants they’ll get, how much it costs to print a 40page journal, how many issues they’ll print, etc. hopefully, you’re right and that $ is more than enough to cover the runs. if thats the case, theyve got room to grow as a young journal.
ugh, honestly, i don’t even remember my point.
look, they’re giving the winner ‘stuff.’ the winner is not getting ripped off. you seem to want a hard figure up front, and im saying the author will get that money from selling the books if the author works hard to do so. i dont know what more you want me to say, other than i agree with you that the entrants, the losers, should get a subscription?
sorry, i will try to focus. my brain is hurting. heres what i think you’re saying Rooms needs to do: complimentary subscription to entrants in the contest, winner receives $100 prize and half the proceeds from the sales.
am i right?
here’s what Rooms is doing (from what i can tell): half the proceeds of sales to winner, complimentary subscription to the winner, and ten copies of the book.
i honestly feel like we’re arguing over tiny things here now (and less meanly?). ive seen contests that dont offer anything to the entrants, ive seen ones that do. ive seen $20 chap contests, ive seen $10 chap contests. ive seen ones that give authors 10% of sales and 150 copies of the book, ive seen $1000 cash prizes. each press is different here. the standard seems to be that the author gets something. i agree.
so, sell the rooms chap for, say, $10 and sell all of them, that’s maybe $2k, half to winner half to press (- the 10 copies that the author gets out of the print run…so minus $100). it looks like to me that Rooms has tried to involve the author in the selling, right? that’s good incentive to try to sell all of the books you can. theyre managing the risk differently, trying to avoid having 150 copies of the book sitting around their apartment while the winner walks off with $1k and 50.
if they get 100 entrants (which would be fantastic), thats another $2k, right? take out of that the cost of printing the journal, and printing the chaps – i admit i dont know how much that’ll cost. but to me, it seems like they’ll have enough to run the press/journal. maybe i’m wrong here? much of this i dont know, because i dont know how they plan to distribute things, how many entrants they’ll get, how much it costs to print a 40page journal, how many issues they’ll print, etc. hopefully, you’re right and that $ is more than enough to cover the runs. if thats the case, theyve got room to grow as a young journal.
ugh, honestly, i don’t even remember my point.
look, they’re giving the winner ‘stuff.’ the winner is not getting ripped off. you seem to want a hard figure up front, and im saying the author will get that money from selling the books if the author works hard to do so. i dont know what more you want me to say, other than i agree with you that the entrants, the losers, should get a subscription?
god i feel like my math is wrong on all of this
darby, honestly, i have no idea what my concept is either. i was told to be mean. i have a hard time doing that, so i tried to be mean. drinking helps me.
i was thinking about that narrative thing – it seems easier to be mean to a big, established thing like narrative. narrative is a big robot. it is a website that eats people. narrative wont ever come to htmlgiant and argue back.
rooms outlast us and christopher robbins are humans. they are tiny and no one knows anything about them except they are struggling/getting started. maybe being mean to them is really bad and not what mean week should do? or maybe being mean to them is harder because it makes you (me) actually have to backup my meanness, or something.
i want to see you post about mean week.
god i feel like my math is wrong on all of this
darby, honestly, i have no idea what my concept is either. i was told to be mean. i have a hard time doing that, so i tried to be mean. drinking helps me.
i was thinking about that narrative thing – it seems easier to be mean to a big, established thing like narrative. narrative is a big robot. it is a website that eats people. narrative wont ever come to htmlgiant and argue back.
rooms outlast us and christopher robbins are humans. they are tiny and no one knows anything about them except they are struggling/getting started. maybe being mean to them is really bad and not what mean week should do? or maybe being mean to them is harder because it makes you (me) actually have to backup my meanness, or something.
i want to see you post about mean week.
A truce has been made. I can live with that. Since I have no plans of entering this or any contest any time soon it was all pretty much a moot point to begin with. Just an offhand comment I made thinking it would be overlooked turned into a lively and time passing debate. Now I must get ready for work. The slot machines await me. I work 7pm until 3am so between this and looking at porn I managed not to get any sleep today. Good thing I’m off tomorrow night.
A truce has been made. I can live with that. Since I have no plans of entering this or any contest any time soon it was all pretty much a moot point to begin with. Just an offhand comment I made thinking it would be overlooked turned into a lively and time passing debate. Now I must get ready for work. The slot machines await me. I work 7pm until 3am so between this and looking at porn I managed not to get any sleep today. Good thing I’m off tomorrow night.
I enjoyed this, also.
Go do stuff.
I enjoyed this, also.
Go do stuff.