May 10th, 2010 / 4:39 pm
Behind the Scenes
Lily Hoang
Behind the Scenes
Old boys
It’s recently come to my attention that HTML Giant is an “old boys club,” or at least, that’s what I’ve been told. So here’s my problem: if commenters are right and HTML Giant is an old boys club, then what role do the women have on this site? I mean, I read HTML Giant pretty faithfully, and I have since long before I was contributor, and I’ve always thought the women play a very significant role. Their posts are thoughtful, funny, often profound. So wtf? If anything, calling HTML Giant an old boys club denigrates the women who post here and the women who read here. And that’s what I think.
Maybe it’s a class thing rather than a gender thing?
(I’ve never seen HTMLG described as an “old boys club”. This isn’t based on experience as I’m not that well travelled.)
We’re not old.
Maybe it’s the “about” page that lists 4 women and 12 men.
yeah, lily–clarify? “old boys” implies something else I think. did you mean frat boys?
Damn- I thought this post was going to be about Korean films
In the UK “old boys” means ex-public school boys. That is, people who had expensive private educations when they were children.
html giant is misogynist blog?
I call it a white-boy-lit-clique. Definitely more young than old. Definitely smart and talented women involved, but not enough to change the overarching feeling…
You know what, it feels like a young boys club precisely BECAUSE the women are, in general, more mature and thoughtful. It’s only the boys who write posts like “race. poetry” or inane music videos — they treat it more like a clubhouse than a publication. Which I enjoy the shit out of, but is still true…
My guess is that Lily is still upset about the discussion that grew out of this: http://htmlgiant.com/behind-the-scenes/but-what-about-the-nipples-a-nice-conversation-pt-1/ ?
But can you be denigrated by something that appeared on your own site? Of course, maybe she’s referring to something else. Hopefully she’ll fill us in. Whatever it is, it sounds *juicy.*
I feel like this perception is partly influenced by the fact that, even though the contributors list is fairly evenly divided, the male contributors tend to post a lot more often and thus disproportionately influence the tone/feel of the blog. Just looking at the front page right now, there are 15 post by men vs. 5 by women.
Or maybe I’m just thinking this because “denigration” seems to be a concern in Lily’s response to http://htmlgiant.com/behind-the-scenes/but-what-about-the-nipples-a-nice-conversation-pt-1/
May 3rd, 2010 / 4:12 pmLily Hoang—
Look, HP certainly isn’t knocking on my door either, but I wouldn’t go so far as to denigrate those among us who’ve been or will be published by them by saying they’re not “daring” enough. That’s certainly not fair. There are daring male writers. There are daring female writers. Yes, sure, radicalize. Absolutely. Yes, please. BUT, but to reduce all this down to sex is problematic, highly problematic. I’m a fucking broken record, but come on. Let’s not ignore the truth that even IF writers like Vanessa or Lid sign on with HP, issues of race, class, EDUCATION, etc. still loom, and if anything, they become even more obvious obstructions.
Old boys are getting younger and more ladylike all the time. As for: education, racism, misogyny: from floating around here, I just don’t see it. I do see however one of the more active writing type blogs on the net, possibly the most active that doesn’t have an sf/fantasy bent. By active, I am not speaking of hits, but rather people actually commenting on the posts. Whatever is popular is bound to annoy people.
lol boom
I’m basically agreed with you, Lily. I think that the sense of this place as a boy’s club is wrong but this blog is – whether it likes it or not – a site of gentrification for minor lit (gentrification not being an innately evil thing in itself, but definitely riven with paradoxes) and so, the issue of minorities and their representation becomes particular tense at this nodal point. That’s my reading as well as part of the reason for my own part in the discussions here.
Lily, what is your goal in writing this post? I’m honestly confused. You know that I’m as vocal as anyone when it comes to self-criticism re this site, but I don’t see the point in giving front-and-center stage time to a generic and increasingly obsolete criticism, especially when it’s not in response to anything in particular. I also can’t figure out what to make of your two questions. They seem rhetorical to me. Nobody’s in a better position to answer either one of them than you are.
Just to clarify on the gentrification point: I would consider myself one of the those who benefits definitely by what this place does so I think of my own attention as part and parcel of what I mean by gentrification. The enhancement of reputation of writers and their ability to delegate awareness of texts and writers with that reputation brings with it difficult questions about access, awareness and the threat of exploitation.
I thought this was really well addressed in the nipple conversation, that this perception exists but upon further examination such is not really the case.
‘clubhouse than a publication’
What’s the difference?
agreed, and like Justin I’m surprised by the post. seems a little light-weight and fussy in context of recent discussions.
I am sure if lily were signed by HP you would have written this differently. no matter, your attention to detail is off this morning.
she clearly states: “It’s recently come to my attention that HTML Giant is an ‘old boys club,'”
it is even the first sentence of the post. i am sure lily is real sorry for not passing the justin taylor post approval list, but, quite frankly, what is your fucking issue here?
let her have her voice you ass.
your book will continue to sell. don’t worry.
is anyone reading the actual post?
i guess i should say comprehending the post, not reading.
i happen to dig the dumb posts more than the deep mature intellectual ones
am i an old boy?
i look like the fat one in the bottom middle
Excuse me, jereme, but two adults are having a conversation here. When Lily and I are done we’ll come look at the picture you painted. Just be patient, sweetie.
I’ll take the murderer at the top, dead center.
No, you are a young-boy-lit-clique.
you kind of look like all of them in different ways, mark.
yes, that was my feeling as well – having read with great interest the “Nipple” conversation and comments, closely enough to remember Lily’s RESPONSE (her all-caps parts may be part of that reason, to be fair), I found this post to be pretty slight, especially if she’s trying to claim that she feels/felt denigrated by calls of old-boy clubism? If anything, this kind of tossed off post only reinforces the argument she presents here, that somewhere, some “people” think women’s contributions on html.giant are insignificant. This post could use a lot more heft and a lot less ‘wtf?’.
Personally, I thought that “race.poetry” was the best post in months.
as usual justin, your character is as opaque as a mustard burp.
sell those books!
see what happens lily, when you write something for yourself instead of the majority?
they shit all over you.
stay strong.
I’ll tell you one thing about HTML: we will kick the fuck out of a dead horse. In fact, we will ride the horse past exhaustion just to kill the horse just to kick it.
Jimmy Chen where are you?
I’d pay 230 Euros for a mocked-up vodka bottle right now.
lily, i started reading evolutionary revolution yesterday. its really great.
Pop Serial magazine has
GIRLS (Kendra Grant Malone! Kristin Hayter! Carrie Lorig! Mallory Whitten! Sarah Meadows! Lauren Michele Manke! others!)
& BOYS (Tao Lin! Zachary German! Brandon Scott Gorrell! Joshua Cohen! Miles Ross! Jordan Castro!),
and NOOOO fighting!: http://www.mediafire.com/?hdykh1d1tmt
http://popserial.tumblr.com ;)
who you calling a dead horse? I feel denigrated.
I’m old.
Oh geez, everyone calm down. This was in DEFENSE of HTML Giant. I had this conversation with Blake after his post on gender weeks ago, mostly because everyone got all worked up, called HTML Giant an “old boys club.” We laughed about it (virtually) and he said: You should write a post about this. And so I did. Sorry that it’s “light weight.” Sorry, also, that it didn’t get the Justin Taylor approval stamp. :( Mostly, I’d forgotten about talking to Blake about this, so it’s late, but whatever. I don’t think HTML Giant is some boys only club and it’s frustrating when people say it is. The women on this site are very cool. So are the men. I like them both. Yeah, so everyone, esp Jimmy Chen!, please keep posting.
Probably definitely more about class/education than about gender, I should think.
Go Dean. Never thought I’d say that.
All the boys in that picture are dead.
Gentrification hasn’t reached my door and there’s trash on my front steps and I have to walk 15 minutes over a hill and past a hospital to reach a cup of latte. Help me.
I’m guilty of linking to inane music videos, and I’m a girl. Now what?
i’ll bring you a cup of latte, clay banes. you just give me directions.
hey, justin, did my response below answer yr questions? basically, i forgot about people calling this site an old boys club. then, i remembered. probably because of kate’s interview. and yeah, those two questions were completely rhetorical. i didn’t actually think anyone would try to answer them.
It’s an odd observation. I saw Maud Newton on a panel in Pittsburgh a few months back and she said the same thing. She was talking about what in her opinion are the best lit blogs–The Millions, Second Pass, etc.–and when she came to HTML Giant she said it was great, but mostly young guys. I didn’t really understand it at the time and still don’t. HTML’s always seemed like a fairly inclusive site to me. Especially lately as it’s begun to address issues like these–the WAC debate and subsequent series of discussion posts for example–head on.
yeah justin, are you done? can you come see my painting now?
i really have been waiting, in tears, for your approval.
ouch, jereme. was that towards me?
no it was towards the creepy pterodactyl named JT.
i was just curious if it was my time again since he put me in a corner earlier.
don’t wake dad!
Maybe it’s a class thing rather than a gender thing?
(I’ve never seen HTMLG described as an “old boys club”. This isn’t based on experience as I’m not that well travelled.)
We’re not old.
Maybe it’s the “about” page that lists 4 women and 12 men.
yeah, lily–clarify? “old boys” implies something else I think. did you mean frat boys?
Damn- I thought this post was going to be about Korean films
Hey, let’s not drag that amazing Insane Clown Posse video into this…
In the UK “old boys” means ex-public school boys. That is, people who had expensive private educations when they were children.
html giant is misogynist blog?
I call it a white-boy-lit-clique. Definitely more young than old. Definitely smart and talented women involved, but not enough to change the overarching feeling…
You know what, it feels like a young boys club precisely BECAUSE the women are, in general, more mature and thoughtful. It’s only the boys who write posts like “race. poetry” or inane music videos — they treat it more like a clubhouse than a publication. Which I enjoy the shit out of, but is still true…
My guess is that Lily is still upset about the discussion that grew out of this: http://htmlgiant.com/behind-the-scenes/but-what-about-the-nipples-a-nice-conversation-pt-1/ ?
But can you be denigrated by something that appeared on your own site? Of course, maybe she’s referring to something else. Hopefully she’ll fill us in. Whatever it is, it sounds *juicy.*
I feel like this perception is partly influenced by the fact that, even though the contributors list is fairly evenly divided, the male contributors tend to post a lot more often and thus disproportionately influence the tone/feel of the blog. Just looking at the front page right now, there are 15 post by men vs. 5 by women.
Or maybe I’m just thinking this because “denigration” seems to be a concern in Lily’s response to http://htmlgiant.com/behind-the-scenes/but-what-about-the-nipples-a-nice-conversation-pt-1/
May 3rd, 2010 / 4:12 pmLily Hoang—
Look, HP certainly isn’t knocking on my door either, but I wouldn’t go so far as to denigrate those among us who’ve been or will be published by them by saying they’re not “daring” enough. That’s certainly not fair. There are daring male writers. There are daring female writers. Yes, sure, radicalize. Absolutely. Yes, please. BUT, but to reduce all this down to sex is problematic, highly problematic. I’m a fucking broken record, but come on. Let’s not ignore the truth that even IF writers like Vanessa or Lid sign on with HP, issues of race, class, EDUCATION, etc. still loom, and if anything, they become even more obvious obstructions.
Were that I had been the one to post that.
No, I posted Michael Bolton.
Old boys are getting younger and more ladylike all the time. As for: education, racism, misogyny: from floating around here, I just don’t see it. I do see however one of the more active writing type blogs on the net, possibly the most active that doesn’t have an sf/fantasy bent. By active, I am not speaking of hits, but rather people actually commenting on the posts. Whatever is popular is bound to annoy people.
lol boom
I’m basically agreed with you, Lily. I think that the sense of this place as a boy’s club is wrong but this blog is – whether it likes it or not – a site of gentrification for minor lit (gentrification not being an innately evil thing in itself, but definitely riven with paradoxes) and so, the issue of minorities and their representation becomes particular tense at this nodal point. That’s my reading as well as part of the reason for my own part in the discussions here.
Lily, what is your goal in writing this post? I’m honestly confused. You know that I’m as vocal as anyone when it comes to self-criticism re this site, but I don’t see the point in giving front-and-center stage time to a generic and increasingly obsolete criticism, especially when it’s not in response to anything in particular. I also can’t figure out what to make of your two questions. They seem rhetorical to me. Nobody’s in a better position to answer either one of them than you are.
Just to clarify on the gentrification point: I would consider myself one of the those who benefits definitely by what this place does so I think of my own attention as part and parcel of what I mean by gentrification. The enhancement of reputation of writers and their ability to delegate awareness of texts and writers with that reputation brings with it difficult questions about access, awareness and the threat of exploitation.
I thought this was really well addressed in the nipple conversation, that this perception exists but upon further examination such is not really the case.
‘clubhouse than a publication’
What’s the difference?
agreed, and like Justin I’m surprised by the post. seems a little light-weight and fussy in context of recent discussions.
I am sure if lily were signed by HP you would have written this differently. no matter, your attention to detail is off this morning.
she clearly states: “It’s recently come to my attention that HTML Giant is an ‘old boys club,'”
it is even the first sentence of the post. i am sure lily is real sorry for not passing the justin taylor post approval list, but, quite frankly, what is your fucking issue here?
let her have her voice you ass.
your book will continue to sell. don’t worry.
is anyone reading the actual post?
i guess i should say comprehending the post, not reading.
i happen to dig the dumb posts more than the deep mature intellectual ones
am i an old boy?
i look like the fat one in the bottom middle
Excuse me, jereme, but two adults are having a conversation here. When Lily and I are done we’ll come look at the picture you painted. Just be patient, sweetie.
I’ll take the murderer at the top, dead center.
No, you are a young-boy-lit-clique.
you kind of look like all of them in different ways, mark.
yes, that was my feeling as well – having read with great interest the “Nipple” conversation and comments, closely enough to remember Lily’s RESPONSE (her all-caps parts may be part of that reason, to be fair), I found this post to be pretty slight, especially if she’s trying to claim that she feels/felt denigrated by calls of old-boy clubism? If anything, this kind of tossed off post only reinforces the argument she presents here, that somewhere, some “people” think women’s contributions on html.giant are insignificant. This post could use a lot more heft and a lot less ‘wtf?’.
Personally, I thought that “race.poetry” was the best post in months.
oh okay, like that’s totally cool, like for real, peeps CHILL OUT. okay, like WOW. really, this is your response to clarify your reader’s questions? OKAY, so you’ve totally proved your own point. I will agree though that most of the woman who write for this site are very cool.
as usual justin, your character is as opaque as a mustard burp.
sell those books!
see what happens lily, when you write something for yourself instead of the majority?
they shit all over you.
stay strong.
Huh? Calling HTMLGiant an old boys club puts down the women contributors? That is silly logic.
If you were to say “rock music in the 60s was male dominated,” you’re not putting down Janis Joplin.
Honestly, I really like (usually) reading the posts here, but sometimes I wish there was a little more thought put into the posts. Quantity isn’t everything.
I’ll tell you one thing about HTML: we will kick the fuck out of a dead horse. In fact, we will ride the horse past exhaustion just to kill the horse just to kick it.
Jimmy Chen where are you?
I’d pay 230 Euros for a mocked-up vodka bottle right now.
lily, i started reading evolutionary revolution yesterday. its really great.
Pop Serial magazine has
GIRLS (Kendra Grant Malone! Kristin Hayter! Carrie Lorig! Mallory Whitten! Sarah Meadows! Lauren Michele Manke! others!)
& BOYS (Tao Lin! Zachary German! Brandon Scott Gorrell! Joshua Cohen! Miles Ross! Jordan Castro!),
and NOOOO fighting!: http://www.mediafire.com/?hdykh1d1tmt
http://popserial.tumblr.com ;)
who you calling a dead horse? I feel denigrated.
I’m old.
Oh geez, everyone calm down. This was in DEFENSE of HTML Giant. I had this conversation with Blake after his post on gender weeks ago, mostly because everyone got all worked up, called HTML Giant an “old boys club.” We laughed about it (virtually) and he said: You should write a post about this. And so I did. Sorry that it’s “light weight.” Sorry, also, that it didn’t get the Justin Taylor approval stamp. :( Mostly, I’d forgotten about talking to Blake about this, so it’s late, but whatever. I don’t think HTML Giant is some boys only club and it’s frustrating when people say it is. The women on this site are very cool. So are the men. I like them both. Yeah, so everyone, esp Jimmy Chen!, please keep posting.
it’s posts like these that make me think i’m hanging out in the wrong treehouse…
Probably definitely more about class/education than about gender, I should think.
Go Dean. Never thought I’d say that.
All the boys in that picture are dead.
Gentrification hasn’t reached my door and there’s trash on my front steps and I have to walk 15 minutes over a hill and past a hospital to reach a cup of latte. Help me.
I’m guilty of linking to inane music videos, and I’m a girl. Now what?
you’re not old.
i’ll bring you a cup of latte, clay banes. you just give me directions.
hey, justin, did my response below answer yr questions? basically, i forgot about people calling this site an old boys club. then, i remembered. probably because of kate’s interview. and yeah, those two questions were completely rhetorical. i didn’t actually think anyone would try to answer them.
It’s an odd observation. I saw Maud Newton on a panel in Pittsburgh a few months back and she said the same thing. She was talking about what in her opinion are the best lit blogs–The Millions, Second Pass, etc.–and when she came to HTML Giant she said it was great, but mostly young guys. I didn’t really understand it at the time and still don’t. HTML’s always seemed like a fairly inclusive site to me. Especially lately as it’s begun to address issues like these–the WAC debate and subsequent series of discussion posts for example–head on.
yeah justin, are you done? can you come see my painting now?
i really have been waiting, in tears, for your approval.
ouch, jereme. was that towards me?
no it was towards the creepy pterodactyl named JT.
i was just curious if it was my time again since he put me in a corner earlier.
don’t wake dad!
Hey, let’s not drag that amazing Insane Clown Posse video into this…
Were that I had been the one to post that.
No, I posted Michael Bolton.
oh okay, like that’s totally cool, like for real, peeps CHILL OUT. okay, like WOW. really, this is your response to clarify your reader’s questions? OKAY, so you’ve totally proved your own point. I will agree though that most of the woman who write for this site are very cool.
Huh? Calling HTMLGiant an old boys club puts down the women contributors? That is silly logic.
If you were to say “rock music in the 60s was male dominated,” you’re not putting down Janis Joplin.
Honestly, I really like (usually) reading the posts here, but sometimes I wish there was a little more thought put into the posts. Quantity isn’t everything.
For a second I thought you said young-boy-clit-lique.
you’re not old.
For a second I thought you said young-boy-clit-lique.
There always seem to be 2 to 1 men commenting on every post as well.
There always seem to be 2 to 1 men commenting on every post as well.