Behind the Scenes
The Insertion of Money Where the Mouth Is
TriQuarterly is moving online and/or ceasing publication depending on who you ask. It is a real shame to see such a fine publication being forced into this transition. I’ve noticed a lot of garment rending, lament and outcry, but how many of us subscribe? Every time a small press or magazine announces it’s going to close or is on the verge of closing, the Internet immediately begins frothing about the loss to arts and letters but as someone who works behind the scenes and knows how few of us actually subscribe to literary magazines, I have to wonder about the hypocrisy of it all. People say they can’t subscribe to every journal or that they can’t afford to subscribe or they don’t believe in acquiring things or a wide range of other excuses but still, people really appreciate the work We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more. What magazines are you subscribing to these days? Do we have a right to express our outrage about the “state of publishing” if we’re part of the problem?
Tags: Publishing, triquarterly
Yes. I am poor. Although I am unsure if one can be poor when one owes money and really never has money. Or when one has money, they spend it on books for people they like. And one at a time, they will save up money to spend on subscriptions but it sometimes seems so overwhelming when there are so many good publications and you suscribe to one, but cant to another, that that ‘another’ goes under and you feel like a jackass. Or, you appreciate the work, appreciate the publication, but are unable to purchase a copy because you make 20 dollars every two weeks (quite literally) and then feel doubly guilty being a reader *and* a writer. One could reach (without ‘reaching’) and claim the problem is also the capitalistic system in which this publishing industry attempts to survive in. Such a claim is a yes and a no and a bullshit response. But it is more of a yes, that is the problem, but it is not a problem you can do something about *right now*, and the money can help *right now*. Unless more ways are developed to maintain a multi-platform publishing model while reducing or almost eliminating the need to be supported by a system that will crush down unless you are already at the top using the resources that system chooses to supply to certain individuals, programs, publishing houses.
I can’t lay blame on such a large working machine for me not subscribing. Well, I can, but let’s not. I’d rather say I am working on suscribing more. And posts such as these, or an opening of dialogue between editors/readers/writers will help more than movements to prevent writers or readers from enjoying the work to decide whether they want to subscribe (such as no preview content) in hopes it will drive up subscriptions. I feel bad when I receive two books in the mail that I wanted to preview online, couldn’t, but bought in hopes they would be fantastic, and they were not. I could’ve bought a subscription to Jubilat liked I wanted too….
Yes. I am poor. Although I am unsure if one can be poor when one owes money and really never has money. Or when one has money, they spend it on books for people they like. And one at a time, they will save up money to spend on subscriptions but it sometimes seems so overwhelming when there are so many good publications and you suscribe to one, but cant to another, that that ‘another’ goes under and you feel like a jackass. Or, you appreciate the work, appreciate the publication, but are unable to purchase a copy because you make 20 dollars every two weeks (quite literally) and then feel doubly guilty being a reader *and* a writer. One could reach (without ‘reaching’) and claim the problem is also the capitalistic system in which this publishing industry attempts to survive in. Such a claim is a yes and a no and a bullshit response. But it is more of a yes, that is the problem, but it is not a problem you can do something about *right now*, and the money can help *right now*. Unless more ways are developed to maintain a multi-platform publishing model while reducing or almost eliminating the need to be supported by a system that will crush down unless you are already at the top using the resources that system chooses to supply to certain individuals, programs, publishing houses.
I can’t lay blame on such a large working machine for me not subscribing. Well, I can, but let’s not. I’d rather say I am working on suscribing more. And posts such as these, or an opening of dialogue between editors/readers/writers will help more than movements to prevent writers or readers from enjoying the work to decide whether they want to subscribe (such as no preview content) in hopes it will drive up subscriptions. I feel bad when I receive two books in the mail that I wanted to preview online, couldn’t, but bought in hopes they would be fantastic, and they were not. I could’ve bought a subscription to Jubilat liked I wanted too….
I certainly agree there is a lot of hypocrisy, especially when you see writers get indignant about response times and form letter rejections when they don’t even subscribe to any of the journals. How are these journals supposed to be paying for the staff to wade through hundred of submissions in a timely manner?
I think one thing that should happen, that might have been talked about here, is MFA programs and undergrad creative writing classes should be forcing students to subscribe to journals. It would be good for them to get a taste of the contemporary lit scene at that level anyway.
I certainly agree there is a lot of hypocrisy, especially when you see writers get indignant about response times and form letter rejections when they don’t even subscribe to any of the journals. How are these journals supposed to be paying for the staff to wade through hundred of submissions in a timely manner?
I think one thing that should happen, that might have been talked about here, is MFA programs and undergrad creative writing classes should be forcing students to subscribe to journals. It would be good for them to get a taste of the contemporary lit scene at that level anyway.
And while I totally believe any writer should be subscribing to lit mags and I always make sure to subscribe to several, to play devil’s advocate I do think some lit mags could spend more time making their products feel more unique and important. So many lit mags feel interchangeable and disposable, both between issues and each other. And they are often so long! I’ll admit to often not reading even when I have a subscription because these lit mags compete with my book reading time.
There are great exceptions though. McSweeney’s, NOON, Tin House, The Believer, and others, including smaller ones loved around here.
I actually think the recent trend of holding contests that include a subscription is a good one.
I really agree with Lincoln on this one: it’d be great if profs incorporated that into their syllabi–the purchasing of a mag subscription and maybe an in-class presentation on it. With anywhere between 8 and 15 students, each subscribing to one mag, there’d be some excellent exposure to the contemporary lit scene. Wouldn’t it be great, too, if alongside one suggested print mag an online journal were assigned as well? I mean, for so many reasons: not just exposure to the writing, but exposure to the writers; hopefully each student would find at least some work by some new writers they actually like and will begin to follow/buy.
Interesting . . .
Oh, and by the way, I just received my first paycheck and wow, I did not see that supertax coming. Somewhere in the range of about $800 I thought I’d have today but don’t. Blasted taxes.
And while I totally believe any writer should be subscribing to lit mags and I always make sure to subscribe to several, to play devil’s advocate I do think some lit mags could spend more time making their products feel more unique and important. So many lit mags feel interchangeable and disposable, both between issues and each other. And they are often so long! I’ll admit to often not reading even when I have a subscription because these lit mags compete with my book reading time.
There are great exceptions though. McSweeney’s, NOON, Tin House, The Believer, and others, including smaller ones loved around here.
I actually think the recent trend of holding contests that include a subscription is a good one.
I really agree with Lincoln on this one: it’d be great if profs incorporated that into their syllabi–the purchasing of a mag subscription and maybe an in-class presentation on it. With anywhere between 8 and 15 students, each subscribing to one mag, there’d be some excellent exposure to the contemporary lit scene. Wouldn’t it be great, too, if alongside one suggested print mag an online journal were assigned as well? I mean, for so many reasons: not just exposure to the writing, but exposure to the writers; hopefully each student would find at least some work by some new writers they actually like and will begin to follow/buy.
Interesting . . .
Oh, and by the way, I just received my first paycheck and wow, I did not see that supertax coming. Somewhere in the range of about $800 I thought I’d have today but don’t. Blasted taxes.
Whoops, didn’t finish my thought: But I will be buying books anyway.
Whoops, didn’t finish my thought: But I will be buying books anyway.
or, as an alternative, since you can’t probably force students to subscribe, the mfa program should at least have subscriptions to quite a few magazines building up a library for the students to browse. i mean, even if every mfa program did this a magazine would have, minimum, what? 500 something subscribers or however many mfa programs exist these days. and i agree that it would help the students with their awareness of the contemporary lit scene. most kids are dumbfounded that anything exists beyond like glimmer train or the paris review.
i have scrips to open city, american short fiction and hobart. and i’ve bought every copy or almost every copy of a public space, the paris review from 2002+, no colony, unsaid, and ny tyrant. and work at a bookstore where i snatch up the latest hot shit from gigantic, salt hill, ninth letter, fence and a few others.
i agree about the hypocrisy, but it further irritates me when it comes to individual books. not that i want to take this discussion in another direction, but when people complain about not being able to buy someone’s book, i goddamn just about get in a rage. what’s $15? seriously. skip a meal motherfucker. scrips can end up being roughly $30-50 but you’re still getting, what like 4 issues? but 1 book? you can’t be THAT broke if you have such easy access to the internet that you maintain a fucking blog. that’s not a dig at you michael, just a generalization. i always see someone lauding someone else on their latest book, CONGRATS! can i get a free copy? seriously? i’ll buy two copies to make up for the weak-kneed.
or, as an alternative, since you can’t probably force students to subscribe, the mfa program should at least have subscriptions to quite a few magazines building up a library for the students to browse. i mean, even if every mfa program did this a magazine would have, minimum, what? 500 something subscribers or however many mfa programs exist these days. and i agree that it would help the students with their awareness of the contemporary lit scene. most kids are dumbfounded that anything exists beyond like glimmer train or the paris review.
i have scrips to open city, american short fiction and hobart. and i’ve bought every copy or almost every copy of a public space, the paris review from 2002+, no colony, unsaid, and ny tyrant. and work at a bookstore where i snatch up the latest hot shit from gigantic, salt hill, ninth letter, fence and a few others.
i agree about the hypocrisy, but it further irritates me when it comes to individual books. not that i want to take this discussion in another direction, but when people complain about not being able to buy someone’s book, i goddamn just about get in a rage. what’s $15? seriously. skip a meal motherfucker. scrips can end up being roughly $30-50 but you’re still getting, what like 4 issues? but 1 book? you can’t be THAT broke if you have such easy access to the internet that you maintain a fucking blog. that’s not a dig at you michael, just a generalization. i always see someone lauding someone else on their latest book, CONGRATS! can i get a free copy? seriously? i’ll buy two copies to make up for the weak-kneed.
The reason I don’t subscribe to journals is pretty simple: they’re not worth subscribing to. Most of the time I’ll only like a small fraction of the pieces included in any given issue of any given journal. I browse through them at the store, but don’t buy them. When I do sucker myself into buying one, I always end up forgetting about it within a week.
The reason I don’t subscribe to journals is pretty simple: they’re not worth subscribing to. Most of the time I’ll only like a small fraction of the pieces included in any given issue of any given journal. I browse through them at the store, but don’t buy them. When I do sucker myself into buying one, I always end up forgetting about it within a week.
Sure, you can force students to subscribe. Make it a text book. I had to buy a BASS edition in one lit class.
(glad you like Gigantic though!)
Sure, you can force students to subscribe. Make it a text book. I had to buy a BASS edition in one lit class.
(glad you like Gigantic though!)
I used to edit a literary journal. At the time it folded, we had seventeen subscribers. We’d usually move around 300 copies by doing readings, and give the rest away. I didn’t feel like anybody had a moral obligation to subscribe, but it did become quite a drag, writing all those checks for printing costs and then getting mean emails from people I’d rejected who had never seen the magazine. It worked out good in a lot of ways, though. A story we ran by Kevin Wilson was reprinted in New Stories from the South and became the title story of his HarperPerennial collection. We also published novellas that found their way into collections from Harcourt and Dzanc, and one of Ben Percy’s earliest stories. I’m proud of what we did, but I feel badly that we ended without doing our last issue. At the time, my wife and son were in the hospital for five months, and nobody would help with design or distribution or any of the things I couldn’t do.
I used to edit a literary journal. At the time it folded, we had seventeen subscribers. We’d usually move around 300 copies by doing readings, and give the rest away. I didn’t feel like anybody had a moral obligation to subscribe, but it did become quite a drag, writing all those checks for printing costs and then getting mean emails from people I’d rejected who had never seen the magazine. It worked out good in a lot of ways, though. A story we ran by Kevin Wilson was reprinted in New Stories from the South and became the title story of his HarperPerennial collection. We also published novellas that found their way into collections from Harcourt and Dzanc, and one of Ben Percy’s earliest stories. I’m proud of what we did, but I feel badly that we ended without doing our last issue. At the time, my wife and son were in the hospital for five months, and nobody would help with design or distribution or any of the things I couldn’t do.
(continued from above) I subscribe to seven lit journals. I used to try to subscribe to every journal that ever was kind enough to publish anything of mine, but that got too expensive pretty quickly.
I don’t think, though, that the blame for the demise of the print edition of TriQuarterly rests with subscribers. A school as wealthy and private and Big Ten and big city and reputationed as Northwestern University can’t pony up the relatively meager amount of money that it takes to keep one of the nation’s most venerable and prestigious journals afloat? It’s outrageous when one considers that it can cost a student activities office more to host a single evening of free standup comedy or hip-hop than it costs to run a literary journal for a year, subscribers or no.
Universities used to consider literary journals a badge of honor and prestige that reflected glory upon the institution. Times have changed. It’s a good thing independent journals like Noon, No Colony, Boulevard, A Public Space, One Story, etc., are thriving, because they might soon be all we have.
(continued from above) I subscribe to seven lit journals. I used to try to subscribe to every journal that ever was kind enough to publish anything of mine, but that got too expensive pretty quickly.
I don’t think, though, that the blame for the demise of the print edition of TriQuarterly rests with subscribers. A school as wealthy and private and Big Ten and big city and reputationed as Northwestern University can’t pony up the relatively meager amount of money that it takes to keep one of the nation’s most venerable and prestigious journals afloat? It’s outrageous when one considers that it can cost a student activities office more to host a single evening of free standup comedy or hip-hop than it costs to run a literary journal for a year, subscribers or no.
Universities used to consider literary journals a badge of honor and prestige that reflected glory upon the institution. Times have changed. It’s a good thing independent journals like Noon, No Colony, Boulevard, A Public Space, One Story, etc., are thriving, because they might soon be all we have.
NOON, NY Tyrant, McSweeney’s, Tin House, Agriculture Reader, VQR, Fence, Ninth Letter, subtropics, unsaid, oxford american, electric literature, Harper’s, A public space….
you can’t find one magazine that is worth subscribing to?
I agree, as I said above, that most lit mags are just interchangeable and disposable but there are definitly at least a handful of great ones and no one is asking you to subscribe to more than a couple.
NOON, NY Tyrant, McSweeney’s, Tin House, Agriculture Reader, VQR, Fence, Ninth Letter, subtropics, unsaid, oxford american, electric literature, Harper’s, A public space….
you can’t find one magazine that is worth subscribing to?
I agree, as I said above, that most lit mags are just interchangeable and disposable but there are definitly at least a handful of great ones and no one is asking you to subscribe to more than a couple.
It’s not only subscriptions that lead to TriQuarterly’s demise. I absolutely agree, but I still have a problem with the reality of how few people subscribe and the indirect proportion to how loudly many people lament the demise of publishing.
It’s not only subscriptions that lead to TriQuarterly’s demise. I absolutely agree, but I still have a problem with the reality of how few people subscribe and the indirect proportion to how loudly many people lament the demise of publishing.
I wish Jimmy would rate a bunch of litmags . . .
And, for the record, I really like SENTENCE, which puts out great (thick) issues of (a huge range of) prose poetry. For those of you who want to take a recommendation on at least one journal to subscribe to . . .
I wish Jimmy would rate a bunch of litmags . . .
And, for the record, I really like SENTENCE, which puts out great (thick) issues of (a huge range of) prose poetry. For those of you who want to take a recommendation on at least one journal to subscribe to . . .
A university class at LSU appears to have done just this very thing with Monkeybicycle recently.
And I don’t know what other universities are like, but the University of Michigan’s Hopwood Room must subscribe to about 500 literary journals. Current issues on display on a massive round table and older issues filed away. A great resource for their students.
A university class at LSU appears to have done just this very thing with Monkeybicycle recently.
And I don’t know what other universities are like, but the University of Michigan’s Hopwood Room must subscribe to about 500 literary journals. Current issues on display on a massive round table and older issues filed away. A great resource for their students.
Frostproof fucking Rocked too Kyle – and it’s a shame that with all you had going on you couldn’t find some help.
I know I first read Kevin Wilson, Benjamin Percy, Chris Coake, Jennifer Spiegel-Bell, and I’m sure others that I’m horrifyingly ignoring, in pages you published and became a much better reader for it.
It does seem beyond ridiculous that NW can’t keep TriQ alive.
Frostproof fucking Rocked too Kyle – and it’s a shame that with all you had going on you couldn’t find some help.
I know I first read Kevin Wilson, Benjamin Percy, Chris Coake, Jennifer Spiegel-Bell, and I’m sure others that I’m horrifyingly ignoring, in pages you published and became a much better reader for it.
It does seem beyond ridiculous that NW can’t keep TriQ alive.
magazines are overwith, they’re cooked & done
who cares about them anyway?
the triquarterly example here – ok, a classic, a legend yes but still: wwwe have this thing they call the wwweb. wwwhy waste time with paper print magazines if you want to reach the world?
most of these things are tiny and obscure. a hundred subscribers, a thousand. why bother? in the case of something with 400 copies, you are insane and backwards to publish it on paper if your goal is to broadcast the work to as many people as possible. make a good website instead. (yeah most litsites are terrible.)
the other thing is, i hate how there’s this complaint about not “supporting” the magazines. especially as these mags don’t pay their contributors. if it weren’t for writers these magazines would not exist. it’s not the job of the writer to fund the magazine and also supply its contents – if that’s the case, just make your own mag.
tiny magazines are cute but there’s a giant difference between commercial slicks (for pros) and academic journals (for teachers and students). then there’s the tiny litjournals, which are nice i guess from a hobby perspective but not from a career, since the world won’t see them.
the real lament is that there aren’t any bigtime web magazines running pomes & stories & general good lit & are payin pro writers. who cares about the paper mags, who goes to buy mags anyway who wants them. who cares about the unpaying mags even the web mags theyre too small to make your words on there much difference. the real thing we need to see is stories litworks and real live poetry in the face of mainstream america in front of all the people who stare out at their screens each day who click on major websites have a kindle play twittergames chat on forums know bout blogging that’s the thing that’s really gotta do
magazines are overwith, they’re cooked & done
who cares about them anyway?
the triquarterly example here – ok, a classic, a legend yes but still: wwwe have this thing they call the wwweb. wwwhy waste time with paper print magazines if you want to reach the world?
most of these things are tiny and obscure. a hundred subscribers, a thousand. why bother? in the case of something with 400 copies, you are insane and backwards to publish it on paper if your goal is to broadcast the work to as many people as possible. make a good website instead. (yeah most litsites are terrible.)
the other thing is, i hate how there’s this complaint about not “supporting” the magazines. especially as these mags don’t pay their contributors. if it weren’t for writers these magazines would not exist. it’s not the job of the writer to fund the magazine and also supply its contents – if that’s the case, just make your own mag.
tiny magazines are cute but there’s a giant difference between commercial slicks (for pros) and academic journals (for teachers and students). then there’s the tiny litjournals, which are nice i guess from a hobby perspective but not from a career, since the world won’t see them.
the real lament is that there aren’t any bigtime web magazines running pomes & stories & general good lit & are payin pro writers. who cares about the paper mags, who goes to buy mags anyway who wants them. who cares about the unpaying mags even the web mags theyre too small to make your words on there much difference. the real thing we need to see is stories litworks and real live poetry in the face of mainstream america in front of all the people who stare out at their screens each day who click on major websites have a kindle play twittergames chat on forums know bout blogging that’s the thing that’s really gotta do
lincoln i got big problems w/ all of those you mentioned – they’re interchangeable and all onesided and really all the same in terms of what they do and who they got and what’s got going. and oxfo/harp aren’t pure litmags anyway so i wouldn’t count em in this debate – but the ones for fiction/poetry they’re all so so so the same and when you buy one it’ll never change your life but not only that i just don’t identify with any of it no a weeping quarter stick of it and yes, it sits in the back in my disgust wish i could get some $ back for the whole wide lot of em. i hate to support these things financially, specially seeing how low they pay writers anyway. they just dont seem important to me and in a way i’m against them. i want something new and big and different and it’s just not out there. it’s time for something big and great tho something different from all this amateur stuff and safe stuff and forgettable wretchable stuff and so-so stuff.
lincoln i got big problems w/ all of those you mentioned – they’re interchangeable and all onesided and really all the same in terms of what they do and who they got and what’s got going. and oxfo/harp aren’t pure litmags anyway so i wouldn’t count em in this debate – but the ones for fiction/poetry they’re all so so so the same and when you buy one it’ll never change your life but not only that i just don’t identify with any of it no a weeping quarter stick of it and yes, it sits in the back in my disgust wish i could get some $ back for the whole wide lot of em. i hate to support these things financially, specially seeing how low they pay writers anyway. they just dont seem important to me and in a way i’m against them. i want something new and big and different and it’s just not out there. it’s time for something big and great tho something different from all this amateur stuff and safe stuff and forgettable wretchable stuff and so-so stuff.
so you dont like magazines that are ‘onesided’ and you dont like magazines that are ‘all the same’
why are you here
in the words of lebowski, ‘what do you do, man’
at the same time, lit is not democracy
things come and things go
but etc.
so you dont like magazines that are ‘onesided’ and you dont like magazines that are ‘all the same’
why are you here
in the words of lebowski, ‘what do you do, man’
at the same time, lit is not democracy
things come and things go
but etc.
I went to the Old English Dictionary (or something like that…this was about 15 years ago) one Saturday and got to tool around the entire English dept. Very nice. That school has the right approach.
“Owning has historically been more the norm for those who start literary journals, and small presses. It is not uncommon for there to be a “publisher”–someone with significant reserves of family money–in place making the continued publication of new numbers of this or that journal possible. This has never been the case with Fence, though in the first years I was able to attract a few patrons. Attract and then repel, I guess, as they all fell away, and now Fence is run almost entirely on grants and actual revenue, and with the kind sponsorship of the University at Albany. I have a certain unuseful attitude toward those who might donate money to Fence, which is that I feel they should do it because they think that Fence is worthy of supporting, and are aware that they have money to give, and not because they are hoping to get something back, however ineffable that thing might be. It becomes a whole other job, jollying donors.”
I went to the Old English Dictionary (or something like that…this was about 15 years ago) one Saturday and got to tool around the entire English dept. Very nice. That school has the right approach.
“Owning has historically been more the norm for those who start literary journals, and small presses. It is not uncommon for there to be a “publisher”–someone with significant reserves of family money–in place making the continued publication of new numbers of this or that journal possible. This has never been the case with Fence, though in the first years I was able to attract a few patrons. Attract and then repel, I guess, as they all fell away, and now Fence is run almost entirely on grants and actual revenue, and with the kind sponsorship of the University at Albany. I have a certain unuseful attitude toward those who might donate money to Fence, which is that I feel they should do it because they think that Fence is worthy of supporting, and are aware that they have money to give, and not because they are hoping to get something back, however ineffable that thing might be. It becomes a whole other job, jollying donors.”
I don’t think having students buy lit magazines is a bad idea in and of itself–but how are they going to afford that? When I was a student my friends and I sold plasma and cds to buy food to eat. I don’t know how you could ask students to spend more money to subscribe to lit magazines.
I don’t think having students buy lit magazines is a bad idea in and of itself–but how are they going to afford that? When I was a student my friends and I sold plasma and cds to buy food to eat. I don’t know how you could ask students to spend more money to subscribe to lit magazines.
Lit mags are much cheaper that most text books…
Lit mags are much cheaper that most text books…
I can’t really imagine someone thinking NOON is publishing the same work as VQR or that Fence publishes the exact some stuff as McSweeney’s.
If you are a fan of contemporary short fiction, magazines like the ones I listed are the places that the stories appear before they go into your favorite authors collections. If you aren’t a fan of contemporary American short fiction then okay…
But bottom line is you shouldn’t really be submitting to magazines that you don’t admire or want to be a part of (and if you aren’t submitting to these places then I don’t think there is a problem)
I can’t really imagine someone thinking NOON is publishing the same work as VQR or that Fence publishes the exact some stuff as McSweeney’s.
If you are a fan of contemporary short fiction, magazines like the ones I listed are the places that the stories appear before they go into your favorite authors collections. If you aren’t a fan of contemporary American short fiction then okay…
But bottom line is you shouldn’t really be submitting to magazines that you don’t admire or want to be a part of (and if you aren’t submitting to these places then I don’t think there is a problem)
There’s a question of length to consider here, I’d think — though I this has shifted somewhat, I have the impression that writing a story over a certain word count puts you in the position of looking more to print than to online journals for places to submit it. I could be wrong on this — or it might be that when I was submitting multiple stories I’d written in the 3,000-5,000-word range a year or two ago, this was more prevalent.
I do wonder if some of the subscription issues come from adoption of technology. It’s very easy for me to go to the website of Barrelhouse or Monkeybicycle or Keyhole and subscribe; for other journals, it’s less so. (One example: Lit’s subscription section gives you an address to which you can send a check.)
(For the record: I subscribe to Hobart, Keyhole, Tin House, One Story, A Public Space, and The2ndHand. Also/more peripherally The Believer and N+1.)
There’s a question of length to consider here, I’d think — though I this has shifted somewhat, I have the impression that writing a story over a certain word count puts you in the position of looking more to print than to online journals for places to submit it. I could be wrong on this — or it might be that when I was submitting multiple stories I’d written in the 3,000-5,000-word range a year or two ago, this was more prevalent.
I do wonder if some of the subscription issues come from adoption of technology. It’s very easy for me to go to the website of Barrelhouse or Monkeybicycle or Keyhole and subscribe; for other journals, it’s less so. (One example: Lit’s subscription section gives you an address to which you can send a check.)
(For the record: I subscribe to Hobart, Keyhole, Tin House, One Story, A Public Space, and The2ndHand. Also/more peripherally The Believer and N+1.)
I subscribe to ten journals. I always feel bad that I don’t subscribe to more, but I just don’t have the cash to do it.
Also, I’m a huge fan of online publishing, and I don’t lament the death of print publishing at all. I mean, I like print magazines and there’s nothing like the feel of a really great book, but I’m also excited about e-readers and I feel like there are a lot of really great online magazines (like Electric Lit, for example) pushing the boundaries of what you can do with a literary journal in amazing ways. Or Cell Stories–I read a story every day on my iPhone on the bus home from work, and how cool is that? I’m online nearly all the time, and so are many people I know–and so I don’t feel badly about things changing–especially if it means more opportunities to access great writing.
I subscribe to ten journals. I always feel bad that I don’t subscribe to more, but I just don’t have the cash to do it.
Also, I’m a huge fan of online publishing, and I don’t lament the death of print publishing at all. I mean, I like print magazines and there’s nothing like the feel of a really great book, but I’m also excited about e-readers and I feel like there are a lot of really great online magazines (like Electric Lit, for example) pushing the boundaries of what you can do with a literary journal in amazing ways. Or Cell Stories–I read a story every day on my iPhone on the bus home from work, and how cool is that? I’m online nearly all the time, and so are many people I know–and so I don’t feel badly about things changing–especially if it means more opportunities to access great writing.
“the other thing is, i hate how there’s this complaint about not “supporting” the magazines. especially as these mags don’t pay their contributors.”
How exactly are they supposed to pay their contributors if there is no money coming in? Maybe a few places with giant philanthropic donors or University’s who are willing to pony the bill, but for any independent magazine…
I’m also not sure its safe to assume that because something is online and theoretically available to a billion people, that anymore than a few dozen or hundred are actually reading it…
“the other thing is, i hate how there’s this complaint about not “supporting” the magazines. especially as these mags don’t pay their contributors.”
How exactly are they supposed to pay their contributors if there is no money coming in? Maybe a few places with giant philanthropic donors or University’s who are willing to pony the bill, but for any independent magazine…
I’m also not sure its safe to assume that because something is online and theoretically available to a billion people, that anymore than a few dozen or hundred are actually reading it…
That’s a good point. And I remember my creative writing textbooks being particularly crappy. If they could just replace the “write-what-you-know” crap and junky vignettes with some really good lit mags…it would help both parties.
That’s a good point. And I remember my creative writing textbooks being particularly crappy. If they could just replace the “write-what-you-know” crap and junky vignettes with some really good lit mags…it would help both parties.
I agree that lit mags need to step up their game, but even when you have good game, it’s really hard to get subscribers. I love your idea about MFA programs having students subscribe to journals or at the very least as MoGa suggests, having programs subscribe to a wide range of journals. Some programs do this, some don’t. It would be nice to get more on board.
I agree that lit mags need to step up their game, but even when you have good game, it’s really hard to get subscribers. I love your idea about MFA programs having students subscribe to journals or at the very least as MoGa suggests, having programs subscribe to a wide range of journals. Some programs do this, some don’t. It would be nice to get more on board.
Eh, I think it’s pretty facile to say lit mags are not worth subscribing to. There’s a lot of crap out there, and quality will often be uneven within an issue because taste is relative and subjective but I can think of any number of magazines off the top of my head… Opium is interesting, Monkeybicycle is outstanding, Hobart is also outstanding, American Short Fiction is traditional but outstanding, The Agricultural Reader is really damn inspired, and on and on I could go.
Eh, I think it’s pretty facile to say lit mags are not worth subscribing to. There’s a lot of crap out there, and quality will often be uneven within an issue because taste is relative and subjective but I can think of any number of magazines off the top of my head… Opium is interesting, Monkeybicycle is outstanding, Hobart is also outstanding, American Short Fiction is traditional but outstanding, The Agricultural Reader is really damn inspired, and on and on I could go.
It’s mostly just an issue of, “Why buy this when I can sit here in the store and read it?” I don’t know. I just prefer to read things in book form. (I say all this as a reader–I write a little bit, but I don’t submit anything for publication.)
It’s mostly just an issue of, “Why buy this when I can sit here in the store and read it?” I don’t know. I just prefer to read things in book form. (I say all this as a reader–I write a little bit, but I don’t submit anything for publication.)
Why buy books when you can just sit in the store and read them?
Why buy books when you can just sit in the store and read them?
I’m genuinely curious. How do you think Electric Literature is pushing the boundaries of what you can do with a literary magazine?
I’m genuinely curious. How do you think Electric Literature is pushing the boundaries of what you can do with a literary magazine?
I like some of the stuff in Agriculture Reader, but I’ve been able to read pretty much the whole latest issue (#3) over several browsing trips to St. Mark’s, so no need to buy.
I like some of the stuff in Agriculture Reader, but I’ve been able to read pretty much the whole latest issue (#3) over several browsing trips to St. Mark’s, so no need to buy.
I have thought about doing that. In fact I would do that, but books take too long. The staff might get suspicious if I started putting bookmarks in their books.
I have thought about doing that. In fact I would do that, but books take too long. The staff might get suspicious if I started putting bookmarks in their books.
I stopped subscribing to lit mags and started buying single copies. This way I can check out 20 or 30 different journals a year, rather than five or six. I feel like I benefit (wider reading) and I spread my money around to more publications, so they benefit.
I stopped subscribing to lit mags and started buying single copies. This way I can check out 20 or 30 different journals a year, rather than five or six. I feel like I benefit (wider reading) and I spread my money around to more publications, so they benefit.
I honestly have very little sympathy for these sorts of complaints. If you make a great product and do your work to get the word out, people will pay for it. If you have to coerce people into buying it (as if MFA students and undergrads weren’t being forced into subsidizing enough of our fun) then your magazine isn’t good enough.
I honestly have very little sympathy for these sorts of complaints. If you make a great product and do your work to get the word out, people will pay for it. If you have to coerce people into buying it (as if MFA students and undergrads weren’t being forced into subsidizing enough of our fun) then your magazine isn’t good enough.
I like the Single Sentence animation videos that they’re doing to promote the stories–that kind of multi-media approach. I also like that they’ve made their mag available in a bunch of different formats. I realize a lot of folks, Barrelhouse and McSweeney’s, for example (I just bought McSweeney’s iPhone app) are doing the same thing, and I just kind of grabbed Electric Lit. as an example because of the animation piece.
They’re not pushing the boundaries of what an online story is, if that’s what you mean–though there are some online journals certainly doing that, too, with linking and pdfs and animations and cool stuff like that. I guess with Electric Lit I meant more the access piece. Expanding access and interest.
I like the Single Sentence animation videos that they’re doing to promote the stories–that kind of multi-media approach. I also like that they’ve made their mag available in a bunch of different formats. I realize a lot of folks, Barrelhouse and McSweeney’s, for example (I just bought McSweeney’s iPhone app) are doing the same thing, and I just kind of grabbed Electric Lit. as an example because of the animation piece.
They’re not pushing the boundaries of what an online story is, if that’s what you mean–though there are some online journals certainly doing that, too, with linking and pdfs and animations and cool stuff like that. I guess with Electric Lit I meant more the access piece. Expanding access and interest.
That’s a bit simplistic and idealistic. There are lots of great products that struggle to succeed.
That’s a bit simplistic and idealistic. There are lots of great products that struggle to succeed.
what do you do, man, i write
you suggest that someone who has a big problem with the way things are shld just shuttup?
suggest that maybe anyone who has something to say about right now that isnt good is just implacable maybe insane shld not be published anyway?
dunno about “don’t submit to mags you don’t admire” cuz if they pay of course i will submit if they accept, a great many writers went to the girlie mags or stupid typical crass moneymags simply for the pay or for “exposure” or what. i mean if you don’t admire the mass of what’s out there you don’t deserve a voice? i don’t think so.
what do you do, man, i write
you suggest that someone who has a big problem with the way things are shld just shuttup?
suggest that maybe anyone who has something to say about right now that isnt good is just implacable maybe insane shld not be published anyway?
dunno about “don’t submit to mags you don’t admire” cuz if they pay of course i will submit if they accept, a great many writers went to the girlie mags or stupid typical crass moneymags simply for the pay or for “exposure” or what. i mean if you don’t admire the mass of what’s out there you don’t deserve a voice? i don’t think so.
“at the same time, lit is not democracy”
right for example right now it’s one big fat obamafest. what happens if that’s not you? oops. democracy don’t count then. but no end to whining when the tables are twisted, shifted, or turned
“at the same time, lit is not democracy”
right for example right now it’s one big fat obamafest. what happens if that’s not you? oops. democracy don’t count then. but no end to whining when the tables are twisted, shifted, or turned
roxane it took a lot of effort to look for goodstuff and even if there are some tiny gems out there the massive bulk is not and that’s what i’m meaning about the massive bulk.
asf charges for submissions now dont they? if so i’d never read them just on principle.
roxane it took a lot of effort to look for goodstuff and even if there are some tiny gems out there the massive bulk is not and that’s what i’m meaning about the massive bulk.
asf charges for submissions now dont they? if so i’d never read them just on principle.
Blake, I have seen that movie far too many times to ask this: When does the dude say that?
I follow the same method. I’ve discovered some of my favorite writers this way.
Blake, I have seen that movie far too many times to ask this: When does the dude say that?
I follow the same method. I’ve discovered some of my favorite writers this way.
lincoln, you ask “How exactly are they supposed to pay their contributors if there is no money coming in?”
sounds to me like they are playing pretend lets play lets make a magazine.
if you start a business you have a plan and you have money coming in.
litmags aren’t really a business its either academic thing for the cv peeps or its a smalltime hobby basement thing, either way who cares no one in the world will read it
magazines are a business, big publishing, that’s what i was talking about. no magazine should depend on its writers for a sub base. if it has no readers who cares if its 12 writers are paying for a sub who cares
“’m also not sure its safe to assume that because something is online and theoretically available to a billion people, that anymore than a few dozen or hundred are actually reading it”
absolutely you are so right – it’s gotta be good, gotta be good and also gotta be a professional operation not a blogspot blog or whatevers but something real, and that takes time and people and money it’s not a hobby either
point is all this litstuff’s just a hobby for young people, mostly connected to schools. nobody’s doing this for a business. no “real world” lit magazines really exist even, more or less. glimmertrain?
lincoln, you ask “How exactly are they supposed to pay their contributors if there is no money coming in?”
sounds to me like they are playing pretend lets play lets make a magazine.
if you start a business you have a plan and you have money coming in.
litmags aren’t really a business its either academic thing for the cv peeps or its a smalltime hobby basement thing, either way who cares no one in the world will read it
magazines are a business, big publishing, that’s what i was talking about. no magazine should depend on its writers for a sub base. if it has no readers who cares if its 12 writers are paying for a sub who cares
“’m also not sure its safe to assume that because something is online and theoretically available to a billion people, that anymore than a few dozen or hundred are actually reading it”
absolutely you are so right – it’s gotta be good, gotta be good and also gotta be a professional operation not a blogspot blog or whatevers but something real, and that takes time and people and money it’s not a hobby either
point is all this litstuff’s just a hobby for young people, mostly connected to schools. nobody’s doing this for a business. no “real world” lit magazines really exist even, more or less. glimmertrain?
dude just start yr own journal. if you don’t like it, start a journal. shit use blogspot for an online journal. it’s free. you can publish the work you wish was being published and then everything’s happy.
that’s the nice thing about the fucking internet.
dude just start yr own journal. if you don’t like it, start a journal. shit use blogspot for an online journal. it’s free. you can publish the work you wish was being published and then everything’s happy.
that’s the nice thing about the fucking internet.
lincoln,
“I can’t really imagine someone thinking NOON is publishing the same work as VQR or that Fence publishes the exact some stuff as McSweeney’s”
you gotta imagine harder man you gotta – and just cause there may be 20 genres doesn’t mean they’re all not identical – pls dont be fooled by all the surfacechangings – also pls consider the political aspect (though lets not go there, not here) oh maybe that’s not even the right word no but understand that involving their overall views and culturepoints they’re totally and completely all the same. vqr, fence, mcsweeneys, noon, oh yes oh yes oh yes they identify exactly the same never before been so obvious and totally such a yawn. they really all the same and such a yawn.
lincoln,
“I can’t really imagine someone thinking NOON is publishing the same work as VQR or that Fence publishes the exact some stuff as McSweeney’s”
you gotta imagine harder man you gotta – and just cause there may be 20 genres doesn’t mean they’re all not identical – pls dont be fooled by all the surfacechangings – also pls consider the political aspect (though lets not go there, not here) oh maybe that’s not even the right word no but understand that involving their overall views and culturepoints they’re totally and completely all the same. vqr, fence, mcsweeneys, noon, oh yes oh yes oh yes they identify exactly the same never before been so obvious and totally such a yawn. they really all the same and such a yawn.
They charge $2 which is less than it costs for me to print out and mail my submission. I don’t personally mind it. And so what if it took a lot of effort? Good things generally require some kind of investment.
They charge $2 which is less than it costs for me to print out and mail my submission. I don’t personally mind it. And so what if it took a lot of effort? Good things generally require some kind of investment.
Oh man, did someone from LROD find their way over here?
Talk about yawn….
Oh man, did someone from LROD find their way over here?
Talk about yawn….
what’s LROD?
what’s LROD?
oh sashsa o sasha that attitude is exactly there the problem: “dude just start yr own journal.”
i-n-s-a-n-e
not you man not you but the prevelancy of that certain meme which poisons young minds listen man,–
one person aint startin no magazine it never happened it cant
you talk about a blogpot blog a cheap little zine well ok
ill give you mine in 3 minutes
but that aint the point what i’m sayin
it takes a whole lotta people lotta money a big business no poet novelist or short-story writer can do it – you gonna call yourself a novelist and then freeze your life in time and stop everything to then begin to found and form and create the next saturday review or collier’s or gawker.com whatever?
like telling a doctor who dont like whats goin on with healthcare in his country “man just make your own hospital and while your at it you dont like the medicine go make factories come up with your better pills”
sorry man i got every right to make my voice. i think you agree too i ain’t pickin but the point is you see it, the point? all of us to make up another lamebrain weblog aint the point
“if you don’t like it, start a journal. shit use blogspot for an online journal. it’s free. you can publish the work you wish was being published and then everything’s happy.”
that aint publishin that masturbatin
“that’s the nice thing about the fucking internet.”
no thats what made it all so wrong. that aint the way at all that’s gonna keep you spinning in circles wasting time ineffectual and away from all thats real
oh sashsa o sasha that attitude is exactly there the problem: “dude just start yr own journal.”
i-n-s-a-n-e
not you man not you but the prevelancy of that certain meme which poisons young minds listen man,–
one person aint startin no magazine it never happened it cant
you talk about a blogpot blog a cheap little zine well ok
ill give you mine in 3 minutes
but that aint the point what i’m sayin
it takes a whole lotta people lotta money a big business no poet novelist or short-story writer can do it – you gonna call yourself a novelist and then freeze your life in time and stop everything to then begin to found and form and create the next saturday review or collier’s or gawker.com whatever?
like telling a doctor who dont like whats goin on with healthcare in his country “man just make your own hospital and while your at it you dont like the medicine go make factories come up with your better pills”
sorry man i got every right to make my voice. i think you agree too i ain’t pickin but the point is you see it, the point? all of us to make up another lamebrain weblog aint the point
“if you don’t like it, start a journal. shit use blogspot for an online journal. it’s free. you can publish the work you wish was being published and then everything’s happy.”
that aint publishin that masturbatin
“that’s the nice thing about the fucking internet.”
no thats what made it all so wrong. that aint the way at all that’s gonna keep you spinning in circles wasting time ineffectual and away from all thats real
I’m not sure I know anyone who has paid for music in the past 5 years. I guess every CD must suck then
when he’s at maude’s and the guy asks him what he does.
i probably paraphrased at least a little.
I’m not sure I know anyone who has paid for music in the past 5 years. I guess every CD must suck then
when he’s at maude’s and the guy asks him what he does.
i probably paraphrased at least a little.
right on baby right on
got streaming online internet radio turned high rightnow too
right on baby right on
got streaming online internet radio turned high rightnow too
I only subscribe to a few print journals. I make decent money and could subscribe to more, undoubtedly. Whatever extra money I get goes to my kids, savings, credit card bills, mortgage, home eq, etc. I just a few days ago ordered a bunch of SS collections/novels I’ve been dying to read.
I read between 50-100 short stories a week, often more, b/w editing for an online journal, and reading (often previously published) pieces on Fictionaut, Zoetrope, etc. I also read as many online journals as I can, all over the place, from Wigleaf to PANK to barrelhouse to tons of others. I can barely keep up with the stuff online.
I often feel oddly guilty that I don’t buy more books and print issues. I love Nate’s idea and think I’ll buy the new Monkeyb and Keyhole. I really do want to support those places and right now feel like total shit for not haivng done so.
There’s a comment above that if you don’t submit to these print journals then no problem bitching about them (I’m paraphrasing, probably poorly). I don’t submit to NOON, Denver Q, NInth Letter for that very reason. Also, I am still surprised by print journals that continue accepting only regular mail submissions. I spent enough time in 02-03 licking stamps and sweating out the arrival of the postman. Since starting to write again late last year, I have not sent one submission to any print journal that only allows reg mail submissions. I have their addreses (did buy that behemoth guide with all “updated” contact info), but I haven’t done so. I like online journals and love the online sub managers and e-mail subs. I don’t make shit from writing and don’t expect to, but I really don’t feel like spending $ shipping/handling/ink/paper/envelopes/stamps all the time. Maybe that will change as I write more.
There was an interesting back/forth on Brad Green’s blog a month ago or so, where folks (some great writers/editors of online journals) seemed to be implying that if it’s in print it’s inherently better b/c it costs more and thus editors have more at stake and thus only print “good” stuff (unlike the potentially schlocky online stuff where b/c anyone can start an online journal and its all but free). That struck me as faulty, logic wise, b/c it’s the same kind of thinking that says if dan snider of the redskins buys top-shelf talent like bruce smith and jason taylor you know he wants to win the most and is thus going to be the best.
When I edited for dogzplot, someone in a private zoetrope office said something like “if it ain’t in print or you ain’t getting paid, you’re wasting your time and all you’re likely getting is published by some pimply teen running a dogshit journal out of his basement.” that sort of thinking is laughable and over the top, but still others seemed to second it on the site, others whose opinion i generally respected.
i’m hopped up on a bit o’ vicodin right now for a root canal gone wrong so sorry to ramble and go a bit off topic. but i guess my point is that while i do plan to start buying some print journals (and have to say after reading Scorch Atlas can TRULY understand the power of holding something like that in your hands), I also feel ilke some online journals are still dismissed out of hand even though things like Triquarterly’s demise/move to online will continue happening. in five years are there going to be journals only allowing mail subs and demanding an SASE? in ten years?
I only subscribe to a few print journals. I make decent money and could subscribe to more, undoubtedly. Whatever extra money I get goes to my kids, savings, credit card bills, mortgage, home eq, etc. I just a few days ago ordered a bunch of SS collections/novels I’ve been dying to read.
I read between 50-100 short stories a week, often more, b/w editing for an online journal, and reading (often previously published) pieces on Fictionaut, Zoetrope, etc. I also read as many online journals as I can, all over the place, from Wigleaf to PANK to barrelhouse to tons of others. I can barely keep up with the stuff online.
I often feel oddly guilty that I don’t buy more books and print issues. I love Nate’s idea and think I’ll buy the new Monkeyb and Keyhole. I really do want to support those places and right now feel like total shit for not haivng done so.
There’s a comment above that if you don’t submit to these print journals then no problem bitching about them (I’m paraphrasing, probably poorly). I don’t submit to NOON, Denver Q, NInth Letter for that very reason. Also, I am still surprised by print journals that continue accepting only regular mail submissions. I spent enough time in 02-03 licking stamps and sweating out the arrival of the postman. Since starting to write again late last year, I have not sent one submission to any print journal that only allows reg mail submissions. I have their addreses (did buy that behemoth guide with all “updated” contact info), but I haven’t done so. I like online journals and love the online sub managers and e-mail subs. I don’t make shit from writing and don’t expect to, but I really don’t feel like spending $ shipping/handling/ink/paper/envelopes/stamps all the time. Maybe that will change as I write more.
There was an interesting back/forth on Brad Green’s blog a month ago or so, where folks (some great writers/editors of online journals) seemed to be implying that if it’s in print it’s inherently better b/c it costs more and thus editors have more at stake and thus only print “good” stuff (unlike the potentially schlocky online stuff where b/c anyone can start an online journal and its all but free). That struck me as faulty, logic wise, b/c it’s the same kind of thinking that says if dan snider of the redskins buys top-shelf talent like bruce smith and jason taylor you know he wants to win the most and is thus going to be the best.
When I edited for dogzplot, someone in a private zoetrope office said something like “if it ain’t in print or you ain’t getting paid, you’re wasting your time and all you’re likely getting is published by some pimply teen running a dogshit journal out of his basement.” that sort of thinking is laughable and over the top, but still others seemed to second it on the site, others whose opinion i generally respected.
i’m hopped up on a bit o’ vicodin right now for a root canal gone wrong so sorry to ramble and go a bit off topic. but i guess my point is that while i do plan to start buying some print journals (and have to say after reading Scorch Atlas can TRULY understand the power of holding something like that in your hands), I also feel ilke some online journals are still dismissed out of hand even though things like Triquarterly’s demise/move to online will continue happening. in five years are there going to be journals only allowing mail subs and demanding an SASE? in ten years?
“right now it’s one big fat obamafest.”
I’ve always wondered why Obamafest is celebrated in September. Even in Germany!
i dunno ‘anyreads,’ i read my volumes of NOON more than i read a lot of other things in my life
“right now it’s one big fat obamafest.”
I’ve always wondered why Obamafest is celebrated in September. Even in Germany!
i dunno ‘anyreads,’ i read my volumes of NOON more than i read a lot of other things in my life
ah I get it, you aren’t even trying to make sense.
ah I get it, you aren’t even trying to make sense.
hi anyreads, ive defended asf before for the $2 charge here . but ill reiterate: i think its not a bad thing, really, the $2 charge, given that asf purchased an online sub manager to help them manage their sub load. i thin they have a smallish staff? so anything to help them out seems fine by me. also, i dont think its a bad thing to use that $2 charge to help out (either to make up for the price of the sub manager or for other admin costs) because asf has a budget to follow, and if they can stay in budget, then their publishing company, badgerdog, can focus on all of its cool programs for children in the austinarea.
so i think of the $2 charge as an indirect way to support a press that is involved in helping out the local community. small price to pay, really, for someone to read your work.
what, then, is the principle on which you’d base your ‘never’ reading them? im curiuos.
hi anyreads, ive defended asf before for the $2 charge here . but ill reiterate: i think its not a bad thing, really, the $2 charge, given that asf purchased an online sub manager to help them manage their sub load. i thin they have a smallish staff? so anything to help them out seems fine by me. also, i dont think its a bad thing to use that $2 charge to help out (either to make up for the price of the sub manager or for other admin costs) because asf has a budget to follow, and if they can stay in budget, then their publishing company, badgerdog, can focus on all of its cool programs for children in the austinarea.
so i think of the $2 charge as an indirect way to support a press that is involved in helping out the local community. small price to pay, really, for someone to read your work.
what, then, is the principle on which you’d base your ‘never’ reading them? im curiuos.
Who the fuck are you, man?
Knox Harrington: [giggles] Oh, just a friend of Maudie’s.
The Dude: Yeah, a friend with a cleft asshole?
Thanks kindly, this would have eaten another hole in my brain today.
Who the fuck are you, man?
Knox Harrington: [giggles] Oh, just a friend of Maudie’s.
The Dude: Yeah, a friend with a cleft asshole?
Thanks kindly, this would have eaten another hole in my brain today.
I also feel ilke some online journals are still dismissed out of hand even though things like Triquarterly’s demise/move to online will continue happening
This is an attitude that is changing as online mags begin paying and begin having better editing and more rigorous standards. I think it is true that there weren’t many online lit mags, for a long time, that really had as much quality or care as the best print mags. But there is a movement towards online portions (like agni) or online with pay (narrative, electric literature, etc.) and with that people’s attitudes will inevitably change.
At the same time, I kinda wish I hadn’t published some stuff online cause now, years later, my work is better but old stuff is what people will find…
I also feel ilke some online journals are still dismissed out of hand even though things like Triquarterly’s demise/move to online will continue happening
This is an attitude that is changing as online mags begin paying and begin having better editing and more rigorous standards. I think it is true that there weren’t many online lit mags, for a long time, that really had as much quality or care as the best print mags. But there is a movement towards online portions (like agni) or online with pay (narrative, electric literature, etc.) and with that people’s attitudes will inevitably change.
At the same time, I kinda wish I hadn’t published some stuff online cause now, years later, my work is better but old stuff is what people will find…
hear that, lincoln. i have some stories from 02-03 that still come right up no matter what hexes i put forth, stories that make me sad to know my kids will eventually read them and laugh at me. well, i have stories from 6 months ago that do the same, but that’s my own battle/war.
sounds to me like they are playing pretend lets play lets make a magazine.
Hmm, I really think it is the opposite. I’m talking about how real lit mags work in the real world, while you seem to be making some argument about a nonexistant world. You don’t want writers to have to pay money to subscribe to magazines yet you want magazine to pay tons of money to the writers they publish and you want big business to finance it all? And then you want them to be online?
There is a reason that big business doesn’t back literary magazines much less online lit mags. There isn’t any money in it. You can’t have no money coming in but be paying out tons of money unless you are merely being backed by academia or arts grants.
I’m not sure no one in the world reads lit mags. The big lit mags probably get as many readers than many of the authors and books talked about on a place like htmlgiant. Obviously not that many people read literature at all these days, but if that makes you think the whole thing is worthless why are you posting on an online indie lit blog?
hear that, lincoln. i have some stories from 02-03 that still come right up no matter what hexes i put forth, stories that make me sad to know my kids will eventually read them and laugh at me. well, i have stories from 6 months ago that do the same, but that’s my own battle/war.
sounds to me like they are playing pretend lets play lets make a magazine.
Hmm, I really think it is the opposite. I’m talking about how real lit mags work in the real world, while you seem to be making some argument about a nonexistant world. You don’t want writers to have to pay money to subscribe to magazines yet you want magazine to pay tons of money to the writers they publish and you want big business to finance it all? And then you want them to be online?
There is a reason that big business doesn’t back literary magazines much less online lit mags. There isn’t any money in it. You can’t have no money coming in but be paying out tons of money unless you are merely being backed by academia or arts grants.
I’m not sure no one in the world reads lit mags. The big lit mags probably get as many readers than many of the authors and books talked about on a place like htmlgiant. Obviously not that many people read literature at all these days, but if that makes you think the whole thing is worthless why are you posting on an online indie lit blog?
Sorry I misread that quote to say that I was paying pretend…
Still, I’m just saying this is the real world. There isn’t money in literary short story magazines.
Sorry I misread that quote to say that I was paying pretend…
Still, I’m just saying this is the real world. There isn’t money in literary short story magazines.
Well, maybe. I mean sure, sometimes. But A) not everything great is going to be able to or necessarily should succeed financially. David Lynch makes great films, but if he’s seriously sitting around at night hating the world for failing to fall in love with his utterly fucked, incomprehensible films, he’s an asshole. (Of course, there’s no indication that he is doing that — David Lynch is not an asshole.)
Likewise, when we decide to get into writing, we have to do so with the understanding that we may never be hugely successful. Guilting people into buying our work is a terrible idea — and the amount of guilt associated with books, and the reading or not-reading and buying or not-buying thereof, does literature far more damage than a few lit mags failing will do.
Fundamentally, we have to have the faith in our work to believe that it can sell, and the humility to accept that it might not — and that this is okay, the world owes us nothing.
Well, maybe. I mean sure, sometimes. But A) not everything great is going to be able to or necessarily should succeed financially. David Lynch makes great films, but if he’s seriously sitting around at night hating the world for failing to fall in love with his utterly fucked, incomprehensible films, he’s an asshole. (Of course, there’s no indication that he is doing that — David Lynch is not an asshole.)
Likewise, when we decide to get into writing, we have to do so with the understanding that we may never be hugely successful. Guilting people into buying our work is a terrible idea — and the amount of guilt associated with books, and the reading or not-reading and buying or not-buying thereof, does literature far more damage than a few lit mags failing will do.
Fundamentally, we have to have the faith in our work to believe that it can sell, and the humility to accept that it might not — and that this is okay, the world owes us nothing.
Length is certainly an issue for me. Most of my stories won’t work online, even if people would take them. At least not yet. I think reading norms will change.
Length is certainly an issue for me. Most of my stories won’t work online, even if people would take them. At least not yet. I think reading norms will change.
http://thirstforfire.com/
http://thirstforfire.com/
http://brandiwellsreview.blogspot.com/
http://brandiwellsreview.blogspot.com/
Yeah- grabbing a random lit journal from the local bookstore is a great way to find good work. A while back I bought Clackamas Literary Review (put out by a community college) and found several cool writers
agreed
Yeah- grabbing a random lit journal from the local bookstore is a great way to find good work. A while back I bought Clackamas Literary Review (put out by a community college) and found several cool writers
agreed
that’s a great method. plus, buying off the rack, while more expensive, is good for the mag because when bookstores communicate w/ their distributors, they can see that some actually sold (like, 1 of the 3 that the distributor sent them, but still) rather than having to return all the copies and tell them, “don’t send those anymore, they never sell.” you create evidence of a demand, however small, helping assure the lit mag some (expensive) shelf space
that’s a great method. plus, buying off the rack, while more expensive, is good for the mag because when bookstores communicate w/ their distributors, they can see that some actually sold (like, 1 of the 3 that the distributor sent them, but still) rather than having to return all the copies and tell them, “don’t send those anymore, they never sell.” you create evidence of a demand, however small, helping assure the lit mag some (expensive) shelf space
I should probably say that the longest of the stories I was submitting ended up on Word Riot; I also find it encouraging that The Collagist doesn’t have a length requirement. So yeah, I do think things are shifting…
And as an aside, it’s been interesting to see some online journals experiment with serialization — failbetter’s novella competition comes to mind, as does C.T. Ballentine’s “Friedrich Nietzsche Waits For a Date”… Seeing what works and what doesn’t in different formats.
I should probably say that the longest of the stories I was submitting ended up on Word Riot; I also find it encouraging that The Collagist doesn’t have a length requirement. So yeah, I do think things are shifting…
And as an aside, it’s been interesting to see some online journals experiment with serialization — failbetter’s novella competition comes to mind, as does C.T. Ballentine’s “Friedrich Nietzsche Waits For a Date”… Seeing what works and what doesn’t in different formats.
There is still the problem of reading something that long online though. It strains the eyes. I can’t do it without printing out the piece, and then why don’t I just buy it with other long pieces in a nice book format?
There is still the problem of reading something that long online though. It strains the eyes. I can’t do it without printing out the piece, and then why don’t I just buy it with other long pieces in a nice book format?
I try to buy enough journals that I don’t feel too guilty. I subscribe to a few, but I don’t really like to, because I’ve moved 3 times in the past couple years and my mail doesn’t always get forwarded. I want to get the issues I paid for. Also, I once subscribed to Hobart and they only ever sent me one issue before telling me my subscription was up. I guess I could have complained but I was too lazy and thought that they’d think I was just trying to get an extra issue out of them.
I try to buy enough journals that I don’t feel too guilty. I subscribe to a few, but I don’t really like to, because I’ve moved 3 times in the past couple years and my mail doesn’t always get forwarded. I want to get the issues I paid for. Also, I once subscribed to Hobart and they only ever sent me one issue before telling me my subscription was up. I guess I could have complained but I was too lazy and thought that they’d think I was just trying to get an extra issue out of them.
Also a lot of journals have no easy or reliable way to notify of a new address. Frankly, a lot of journals seem to be pretty disorganized and unreliable when it comes to this sort of thing.
Also a lot of journals have no easy or reliable way to notify of a new address. Frankly, a lot of journals seem to be pretty disorganized and unreliable when it comes to this sort of thing.
[…] Barrelhouse commenter and general pal 1 Roxane “One N” Gay has a post up over at HTMLGiant about the hypocrisy of writers who complain when a journal shuts down, or […]
This isn’t about guilt in any way.
This isn’t about guilt in any way.
This, I think is true. I can’t tell you the number of magazines to which I subscribe that I have to harass to get issues I’ve paid for. I mean really. It’s called a spreadsheet.
This, I think is true. I can’t tell you the number of magazines to which I subscribe that I have to harass to get issues I’ve paid for. I mean really. It’s called a spreadsheet.
boy, where to start – how about this:
“one person aint startin no magazine it never happened it cant” – bullshit, happens all the time, did it a year ago with ColoredChalk.com and we got Stephen Graham Jones, Joe Meno, Joey Goebel and others – just launched a circus themed quarterly called SideshowFables.com, and we have a Steve Almond story in it
@ nathan – i like the buy one issue, spread it around concept, but i do have a soft spot for Juked, Hobart and a couple others
i asked a couple of questions at the NYC AWP about a similar subject, how we authors can make money and also support other authors – if i have a friend that is a painter, i can buy a piece of his/her art, spend $10, $50, $1000 whatever – aside from buying a novel, and that author getting $1 or something, how do we support each other? many of the traditional business models are failing, and more and more people are going online
i saw dan post up and i wonder if non-profits are the way, if it’s even possible for people to write off their subscriptions (i’m not sure) but that sound like a good idea
often you can do a co-op – you pay to go to a party for example, and for $20 or $30 or $50 you get food, drink, a subscription and maybe live readings and/or music
one way that i am trying to help is by paying authors, paying them more and trying for longer projects, committing to a small print run and working my ass off, along with their support, to make something really cool
tours like what blake was doing, things like what FMC is doing (PITCH, LAUNCH) and the recent serialization of Shya’s FORECAST 42 are ways to promote and earn
times are changing, we have to change with them – but i still like holding it in my hand
peace,
richard
wait…what did i just say there at the end?
ps-we all need to go to electronic submissions only – if i saved what i spent on postage this year, for shorts and manuscripts i could subscribe to TEN journals, easy
boy, where to start – how about this:
“one person aint startin no magazine it never happened it cant” – bullshit, happens all the time, did it a year ago with ColoredChalk.com and we got Stephen Graham Jones, Joe Meno, Joey Goebel and others – just launched a circus themed quarterly called SideshowFables.com, and we have a Steve Almond story in it
@ nathan – i like the buy one issue, spread it around concept, but i do have a soft spot for Juked, Hobart and a couple others
i asked a couple of questions at the NYC AWP about a similar subject, how we authors can make money and also support other authors – if i have a friend that is a painter, i can buy a piece of his/her art, spend $10, $50, $1000 whatever – aside from buying a novel, and that author getting $1 or something, how do we support each other? many of the traditional business models are failing, and more and more people are going online
i saw dan post up and i wonder if non-profits are the way, if it’s even possible for people to write off their subscriptions (i’m not sure) but that sound like a good idea
often you can do a co-op – you pay to go to a party for example, and for $20 or $30 or $50 you get food, drink, a subscription and maybe live readings and/or music
one way that i am trying to help is by paying authors, paying them more and trying for longer projects, committing to a small print run and working my ass off, along with their support, to make something really cool
tours like what blake was doing, things like what FMC is doing (PITCH, LAUNCH) and the recent serialization of Shya’s FORECAST 42 are ways to promote and earn
times are changing, we have to change with them – but i still like holding it in my hand
peace,
richard
wait…what did i just say there at the end?
ps-we all need to go to electronic submissions only – if i saved what i spent on postage this year, for shorts and manuscripts i could subscribe to TEN journals, easy
Yes, i’m not sure guilt is the right word here. And I don’t think it is annoyance that these lit mags don’t make tons of money and sell billions of copies.
I think Roxane’s main point, not to speak for her, is that people in the literary world always lament the folding of a lit journal… but so many of them never even subscribed or bought an issue. How can you whine so much about how it sucks literary journals fold when you dont’ support them?
Yes, i’m not sure guilt is the right word here. And I don’t think it is annoyance that these lit mags don’t make tons of money and sell billions of copies.
I think Roxane’s main point, not to speak for her, is that people in the literary world always lament the folding of a lit journal… but so many of them never even subscribed or bought an issue. How can you whine so much about how it sucks literary journals fold when you dont’ support them?
who exactly is whining about lit journals folding and how do you know they are not subscribing?
who exactly is whining about lit journals folding and how do you know they are not subscribing?
Yeah, I guess I haven’t really seen that either.
Honestly I’m not sure it would hurt to have a few of them fold every now and again. Moral hazard isn’t just for banks.
Yeah, I guess I haven’t really seen that either.
Honestly I’m not sure it would hurt to have a few of them fold every now and again. Moral hazard isn’t just for banks.
Guilt should be a part of this discussion. Because this post should be prompting people to ask themselves why do they subscribe anywhere in the first place? This sentence: ‘We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more.’ uses guilt to get someone to subscribe. Subscribe to us, not necessarily because you love what we publish, but because we are struggling and need more money. Because a journal is struggling shouldn’t be reason enough to ‘support’ them, if you don’t truly love what they publish. But, one can appreicate that publication’s existence, if it does good for other readers/writers/community, etc. I think it’s okay to think that way and not be hypocritical. I’ve only so much money, I spend it on the things that truly move me, however, I will continue to appreicate all artistic venues in a more general sense because they contribute, they provide options etc, and I will be sad when any of them go away for whatever reason.
Guilt should be a part of this discussion. Because this post should be prompting people to ask themselves why do they subscribe anywhere in the first place? This sentence: ‘We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more.’ uses guilt to get someone to subscribe. Subscribe to us, not necessarily because you love what we publish, but because we are struggling and need more money. Because a journal is struggling shouldn’t be reason enough to ‘support’ them, if you don’t truly love what they publish. But, one can appreicate that publication’s existence, if it does good for other readers/writers/community, etc. I think it’s okay to think that way and not be hypocritical. I’ve only so much money, I spend it on the things that truly move me, however, I will continue to appreicate all artistic venues in a more general sense because they contribute, they provide options etc, and I will be sad when any of them go away for whatever reason.
I’ve certainly seen it, but what I’ve seen even more (and is part of the same thing I think) is people complaining about lag time in responding to submissions, lack of pay for authors, lack of editorial comments on rejections, etc. Things I complain about as well. But if you are carpet bombing 40 journals with work and not supporting any of them, it is hard for me to feel bad that you don’t get the quickest response.
I’ve certainly seen it, but what I’ve seen even more (and is part of the same thing I think) is people complaining about lag time in responding to submissions, lack of pay for authors, lack of editorial comments on rejections, etc. Things I complain about as well. But if you are carpet bombing 40 journals with work and not supporting any of them, it is hard for me to feel bad that you don’t get the quickest response.
I don’t disagree that turnover is or magazines folding is inherently bad either. My suggestion is only that people should subscribe to some they like, not to ones they don’t.
I don’t disagree that turnover is or magazines folding is inherently bad either. My suggestion is only that people should subscribe to some they like, not to ones they don’t.
point me anywhere where someone is lamenting the folding of a journal and who didn’t subscribe to it.
point me anywhere where someone is lamenting the folding of a journal and who didn’t subscribe to it.
or rather, what circumstantial evidence is there to assume it?
or rather, what circumstantial evidence is there to assume it?
eif nothing else can we all of us editors and journals – print/online/combo – just get online sub managers and/or accept online subs and stop the postage/paper/ink/toner cartridge costs?
eif nothing else can we all of us editors and journals – print/online/combo – just get online sub managers and/or accept online subs and stop the postage/paper/ink/toner cartridge costs?
Speaking strictly for myself, the only reasons I get pissed off about wait times is when journals insist on ridiculous restrictions like “no simultaneous subs.” If you can get back to me within, say, two months, I can maybe deal with that. If you can pay, it’s up to you — I still won’t like it, probably won’t submit, but I understand. What I can’t deal with is places that don’t pay, don’t get back fast, and still expect a monopoly on your work. And really who cares — most of the good places have wised up at this point, I just don’t submit if someone’s policy pisses me off.
As for people who bitch about lack of editorial comments, that’s insane. I’m an editor for Puerto del Sol, which isn’t probably getting half the submissions of a lot of places, and we don’t really have time for it, though we fit it in when we can.
Really writers who bitch about these things are generally, in my experience, the sort of deluded people who think they WOULD be publishing left and right if it weren’t for the editorial “man” coming down on them. BUT, at the same time, writers get so mad for a reason — we’re impotent. You work all your life on creating this work and then you have to beg people to use it. Is that wrong? No, it’s a practical solution to a real problem. And not everything, or even most things, should be published. But some grousing from those who feel powerless is to be expected, and necessary.
Speaking strictly for myself, the only reasons I get pissed off about wait times is when journals insist on ridiculous restrictions like “no simultaneous subs.” If you can get back to me within, say, two months, I can maybe deal with that. If you can pay, it’s up to you — I still won’t like it, probably won’t submit, but I understand. What I can’t deal with is places that don’t pay, don’t get back fast, and still expect a monopoly on your work. And really who cares — most of the good places have wised up at this point, I just don’t submit if someone’s policy pisses me off.
As for people who bitch about lack of editorial comments, that’s insane. I’m an editor for Puerto del Sol, which isn’t probably getting half the submissions of a lot of places, and we don’t really have time for it, though we fit it in when we can.
Really writers who bitch about these things are generally, in my experience, the sort of deluded people who think they WOULD be publishing left and right if it weren’t for the editorial “man” coming down on them. BUT, at the same time, writers get so mad for a reason — we’re impotent. You work all your life on creating this work and then you have to beg people to use it. Is that wrong? No, it’s a practical solution to a real problem. And not everything, or even most things, should be published. But some grousing from those who feel powerless is to be expected, and necessary.
One thing worth pointing out about tours is that you don’t really earn. They are net money-losers, usually. You do them because you want more people to read your book, and you hope to spread the word, but as far as I can tell you don’t come out ahead financially. Maybe the publisher does eventually. You do it for love.
Sincerely,
Veteran of Recent 25-City Tour
One thing worth pointing out about tours is that you don’t really earn. They are net money-losers, usually. You do them because you want more people to read your book, and you hope to spread the word, but as far as I can tell you don’t come out ahead financially. Maybe the publisher does eventually. You do it for love.
Sincerely,
Veteran of Recent 25-City Tour
oh chuluredcaulk sorry i forgot dot com
& sideshowfables yes of course can too i will get my own dingdongdaddy (that one’s the blues) (dot come)
pitch launtch fmc i have my own revolution, styled lit rare e
everyboardy has his her it they them own thought’s can type out on a screen and put on internet you very own journal your own magazine / tv station / hollywood marquis / newspaper and everything else, make your own paparazzi & print own moneee (color inkjett)
peace out richard peace out
oh chuluredcaulk sorry i forgot dot com
& sideshowfables yes of course can too i will get my own dingdongdaddy (that one’s the blues) (dot come)
pitch launtch fmc i have my own revolution, styled lit rare e
everyboardy has his her it they them own thought’s can type out on a screen and put on internet you very own journal your own magazine / tv station / hollywood marquis / newspaper and everything else, make your own paparazzi & print own moneee (color inkjett)
peace out richard peace out
that sorta thing happened to me a couple times too. part of the game, i think – small jrnls have small offices smalltime ops hard to keep the subs etc straight. sometimes (at least 3 this year) i get a peace placed and the jrnl doesn’t even send the copies they’re supposed to and then even email pesterment dont always work they sometimes turn the other ear hope i go away
subscribin to these small things just aint worthit
that sorta thing happened to me a couple times too. part of the game, i think – small jrnls have small offices smalltime ops hard to keep the subs etc straight. sometimes (at least 3 this year) i get a peace placed and the jrnl doesn’t even send the copies they’re supposed to and then even email pesterment dont always work they sometimes turn the other ear hope i go away
subscribin to these small things just aint worthit
david
curious
of the 50-100 u read, how many you comment on (like even justaword or something small, a phrase, even an underline (in paper subs) (or somethin equiv in online subs dont know what it’d be)?
thanx
good luck with your teeth
david
curious
of the 50-100 u read, how many you comment on (like even justaword or something small, a phrase, even an underline (in paper subs) (or somethin equiv in online subs dont know what it’d be)?
thanx
good luck with your teeth
p.s.
in ten years will there still be mail? SASEs? will we?
big questions taken seriously
p.s.
in ten years will there still be mail? SASEs? will we?
big questions taken seriously
“but if that makes you think the whole thing is worthless why are you posting on an online indie lit blog?”
to broaden your horizons dude with diverse underrepresented minority viewpoints
“but if that makes you think the whole thing is worthless why are you posting on an online indie lit blog?”
to broaden your horizons dude with diverse underrepresented minority viewpoints
Roxane wins for best first post at HTMLGIANT.
Roxane wins for best first post at HTMLGIANT.
ryan: writers are giving asf the product that asf is selling stop without writers asf is nil stop we didnt ask asf to buy the stupid submgr program and why not write your own stop if you cant do a simple submgr dont even bother with a website stop i mean are you a p-u-b-l-i-s-h-e-r or a wanna stop its part of the business we’re not gonna fund asf’s purchasing of business tools should we pay their water bills so they can flush toilets?
ryan: writers are giving asf the product that asf is selling stop without writers asf is nil stop we didnt ask asf to buy the stupid submgr program and why not write your own stop if you cant do a simple submgr dont even bother with a website stop i mean are you a p-u-b-l-i-s-h-e-r or a wanna stop its part of the business we’re not gonna fund asf’s purchasing of business tools should we pay their water bills so they can flush toilets?
noreads somethings a happening out there cant you feel it is your name farmer brown?
noreads somethings a happening out there cant you feel it is your name farmer brown?
word.
word.
ok.
ok.
This really gets even further away from what Roxane initially wrote about, but it’s a question for anyreads,
Just curious as you’ve lost me on one thing – here you mock Richard (it seems) and go through the big paragraph of reminding us that anybody can do up their own lit. journal and print themselves (unless I’ve misread that paragraph’s intention). At least a couple of times earlier you point out the lit. journals are taking advantage of writers, getting all of the income from sales of the work provided by writers for free.
Would the only viable system be, then, one where there are only journals that pay for the work? It seems through your comments that this would be the only way to be a validated author – to be published by somebody that isn’t yourself (something I don’t completely disagree with), and to be paid for your work, be it a story, poem, essay, review, etc.
I’m not a writer, so I’m genuinely curious about your ideas here. I know of cases where authors had their work published in these literary magazines and weren’t paid for it, but those stories were read by agents, or editors at publishing houses that in turn tracked down said authors and these free notches on their resumes were the glint in somebody’s eyes that led to their getting paid, for books, for awards for their books, etc. In at least one of those cases, tangentially mentioned above, the journal editor/publisher lost their ass on the journal, and it disbanded. Yet that writer, that took a chance on sending their work to a journal that didn’t pay, has a couple of well received books published, a couple more on the way, and has seen their work recognized in many different ways, monetarily, in film, prizes, etc.
It seems that in most cases, both the author sending their work out, hoping to find a home for it, and seeing some recognition for their labor, and the publisher of a literary journal, are jointly taking chances. Neither are getting into the literary world to get rich – at least not if they have any brains or business sense.
I’m no longer even sure if my question makes any sense, but if it does, I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts and reply.
Thanks.
This really gets even further away from what Roxane initially wrote about, but it’s a question for anyreads,
Just curious as you’ve lost me on one thing – here you mock Richard (it seems) and go through the big paragraph of reminding us that anybody can do up their own lit. journal and print themselves (unless I’ve misread that paragraph’s intention). At least a couple of times earlier you point out the lit. journals are taking advantage of writers, getting all of the income from sales of the work provided by writers for free.
Would the only viable system be, then, one where there are only journals that pay for the work? It seems through your comments that this would be the only way to be a validated author – to be published by somebody that isn’t yourself (something I don’t completely disagree with), and to be paid for your work, be it a story, poem, essay, review, etc.
I’m not a writer, so I’m genuinely curious about your ideas here. I know of cases where authors had their work published in these literary magazines and weren’t paid for it, but those stories were read by agents, or editors at publishing houses that in turn tracked down said authors and these free notches on their resumes were the glint in somebody’s eyes that led to their getting paid, for books, for awards for their books, etc. In at least one of those cases, tangentially mentioned above, the journal editor/publisher lost their ass on the journal, and it disbanded. Yet that writer, that took a chance on sending their work to a journal that didn’t pay, has a couple of well received books published, a couple more on the way, and has seen their work recognized in many different ways, monetarily, in film, prizes, etc.
It seems that in most cases, both the author sending their work out, hoping to find a home for it, and seeing some recognition for their labor, and the publisher of a literary journal, are jointly taking chances. Neither are getting into the literary world to get rich – at least not if they have any brains or business sense.
I’m no longer even sure if my question makes any sense, but if it does, I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts and reply.
Thanks.
Although they’re not the first to do these things, Amber, they are the most visible, and for that you have to love them. It’s not easy to get the kind of audience they have. There’s no way it’s all writers. I’ve been in discussions with one of their four dedicated people about how to better interact with the more grassroots literary world. I told him that if he was too for-profit he’d probably suffer for it, get skewered, but that I’d be there until the bitter end, which I will.
Anyway, not every lit mag has mass appeal. If I don’t feel it’s something I could give to another soldier or to a non-writing friend, I doubt very much that I’m going to buy a lit mag. A Public Space, the Paris Review, the New Yorker, One-Story–all of these, I feel, are safe introductions for new readers. Then again I’ve recently been researching into the other world of magazine publishing and found that literary magazines don’t typically demand enough of their readership. For instance, why do non-literary magazines get away with their busy pages and ridiculous headings? Because they’re good. So, I’ve got that to think on, as well.
Rambling now. I’m out.
Although they’re not the first to do these things, Amber, they are the most visible, and for that you have to love them. It’s not easy to get the kind of audience they have. There’s no way it’s all writers. I’ve been in discussions with one of their four dedicated people about how to better interact with the more grassroots literary world. I told him that if he was too for-profit he’d probably suffer for it, get skewered, but that I’d be there until the bitter end, which I will.
Anyway, not every lit mag has mass appeal. If I don’t feel it’s something I could give to another soldier or to a non-writing friend, I doubt very much that I’m going to buy a lit mag. A Public Space, the Paris Review, the New Yorker, One-Story–all of these, I feel, are safe introductions for new readers. Then again I’ve recently been researching into the other world of magazine publishing and found that literary magazines don’t typically demand enough of their readership. For instance, why do non-literary magazines get away with their busy pages and ridiculous headings? Because they’re good. So, I’ve got that to think on, as well.
Rambling now. I’m out.
Reformed pirates, dig: http://amiestreet.com
The new international piracy laws have scared me straight. Go on a trip to Britain and they might check your hard drive and send you back with a court hearing to go to. No thanks. I’ll just check out less new music.
Reformed pirates, dig: http://amiestreet.com
The new international piracy laws have scared me straight. Go on a trip to Britain and they might check your hard drive and send you back with a court hearing to go to. No thanks. I’ll just check out less new music.
you didn’t ask me but lemme pipe in my two cents before the anon anyreads schools us. what he’s saying in some ways isn’t far off from what that guy on zoetrope told me – if it ain’t print or paying cash, you (the writer) are a sucker for sending it in for consideration.
it’s such a straw man argument that i really can’t even fathom anyreads believes what he’s saying. on mma forums they call people like him trolls. they stir the shit up, rip on people who ask well-intentioned questions, never post under their real names, etc.
his asinine, condescending comments above to Richard are the kinds of things he’d likely never say without the protection of anonymity.
you didn’t ask me but lemme pipe in my two cents before the anon anyreads schools us. what he’s saying in some ways isn’t far off from what that guy on zoetrope told me – if it ain’t print or paying cash, you (the writer) are a sucker for sending it in for consideration.
it’s such a straw man argument that i really can’t even fathom anyreads believes what he’s saying. on mma forums they call people like him trolls. they stir the shit up, rip on people who ask well-intentioned questions, never post under their real names, etc.
his asinine, condescending comments above to Richard are the kinds of things he’d likely never say without the protection of anonymity.
Me trying to steal music online would be like me trying to buy drugs—even if I wanted to, I wouldn’t know how. Nobody tells me anything.
Me trying to steal music online would be like me trying to buy drugs—even if I wanted to, I wouldn’t know how. Nobody tells me anything.
dan first of all no mocking richard
however that idea about ‘we all have freedom now we can say anything in our own journal just use blogspot’
no thanks
i use ‘htmlgiant’ and my journal is right here
109 people read it so fars & thats nothing
& my ammo toward that idea is if you’re selfpubbing your work to 20 people its hiding in a hole
ok as for the question – my working assumption right now is that everythings fallen away broken down apart, and getting worse, and ‘journals’ are bad for you & for the world (a timewaster). look at how it used to be think of (say) john o’hara and how would he have fared with ‘journals’ (wouldn’t). ok point being commercial publishing is trashed inside and out and think of magazines where stories don’t exist at all. that’s where good writers should be going but there’s no place anymore. i’d normally not discourage playing with weblogs & little paper projects but for speaking to the world it’s not sane and actually quite stupid (unless you only have little inconsequential things to say (which i do believe is true for many yes))
david don’t assume nothing stupid like that. if i saw richard holding out coloredchaulk.com or some other zine i would laff too just like the dumb punx on the subway laff at me – i confront in ‘realife’ too you know & in most cases thats even better but the ears are often all closed there right too
aint no straw man thats the tin man
dan first of all no mocking richard
however that idea about ‘we all have freedom now we can say anything in our own journal just use blogspot’
no thanks
i use ‘htmlgiant’ and my journal is right here
109 people read it so fars & thats nothing
& my ammo toward that idea is if you’re selfpubbing your work to 20 people its hiding in a hole
ok as for the question – my working assumption right now is that everythings fallen away broken down apart, and getting worse, and ‘journals’ are bad for you & for the world (a timewaster). look at how it used to be think of (say) john o’hara and how would he have fared with ‘journals’ (wouldn’t). ok point being commercial publishing is trashed inside and out and think of magazines where stories don’t exist at all. that’s where good writers should be going but there’s no place anymore. i’d normally not discourage playing with weblogs & little paper projects but for speaking to the world it’s not sane and actually quite stupid (unless you only have little inconsequential things to say (which i do believe is true for many yes))
david don’t assume nothing stupid like that. if i saw richard holding out coloredchaulk.com or some other zine i would laff too just like the dumb punx on the subway laff at me – i confront in ‘realife’ too you know & in most cases thats even better but the ears are often all closed there right too
aint no straw man thats the tin man
shit, man, people laff at me on the train too. i just walk up real close and look at their teeth. The John O’Hara reference was nice. Just saw (again) the Mad Men with his “Meditations in an Emergency.”
Your answer to Dan is interesting. Curious what he fires back.
shit, man, people laff at me on the train too. i just walk up real close and look at their teeth. The John O’Hara reference was nice. Just saw (again) the Mad Men with his “Meditations in an Emergency.”
Your answer to Dan is interesting. Curious what he fires back.
word to mj’s word.
word to mj’s word.
David–fuck Mark Budman. Seriously.
David–fuck Mark Budman. Seriously.
agreed. i use lit journals / anthologies as required texts in all my classes. and i’m always shamelssly pushing books (not mine) on my students.
agreed. i use lit journals / anthologies as required texts in all my classes. and i’m always shamelssly pushing books (not mine) on my students.
all this talk of money and no talk of fun or enjoyment. it makes me sad kind of.
i do the flash site becaue its fun and because i enjoy it and because contributors and readers enjoy it. my print run is small and i sell them out quickly and don’t print anymore. if anyone chooses not to submit because of it, because they feel that publishing their writing in such a ‘meaningless’ place is foolish, that’s fine. i lose money on every anthology i print and sell and i’m ok with that. i just love doing what i do and if people are down or not, fuck it.
do what you love, love what you do and shut the fuck up and let everyone else do the same.
all this talk of money and no talk of fun or enjoyment. it makes me sad kind of.
i do the flash site becaue its fun and because i enjoy it and because contributors and readers enjoy it. my print run is small and i sell them out quickly and don’t print anymore. if anyone chooses not to submit because of it, because they feel that publishing their writing in such a ‘meaningless’ place is foolish, that’s fine. i lose money on every anthology i print and sell and i’m ok with that. i just love doing what i do and if people are down or not, fuck it.
do what you love, love what you do and shut the fuck up and let everyone else do the same.
>Roxane wins for best first post at HTMLGIANT.
for sure for sure….
and anyreads for best jammie-clad antagonist…..
>Roxane wins for best first post at HTMLGIANT.
for sure for sure….
and anyreads for best jammie-clad antagonist…..
hmmmmmmm…thanks Dan for the thoughtful post
@ anyreads – i think we’re talking about two connected, but different things, from the original post:
“…but still, people really appreciate the work We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more…”
two things here:
people appreciate the work
we need the money more
ain’t that the truth? i think this is why more and more people are going online, and avoiding print costs, but i don’t think the printed book or journal will ever go away, we just have to change the business models a bit, and that’s why i mentioned a couple of different things, different projects that people are trying
you ARE mocking, even though you say you aren’t, and i mentioned at least one example (Shya’s FORECAST 42) that shows you CAN post up your work online for NO MONEY and have it turn into something else, more concrete maybe, that DOES pay
mocking:
“…i will get my own dingdongdaddy…”
“…everyboardy has his her it they them own thought’s can type out on a screen and put on internet you very own journal your own magazine / tv station / hollywood marquis / newspaper and everything else, make your own paparazzi & print own moneee (color inkjett)…”
now, i laughed at some of that, but then i got pissed
SURE we’d all love to make money on every story we write, but that’s just not a reality – there really are not that many publications that pay professional rates (.05 a word and up), and most of those are at a 1% acceptance rate or don’t take unsolicited stories ANYWAY so…what are we to do, just say screw it? no, we find other ways, prestigious journals, cool zines, alternative projects like graphic novels and online serializations
these stories, and i’d like to include colored chalk and sideshow fables as well as SO MANY fantastic online and print publications, give us tons of great stories, entertainment and enlightenment, and isn’t that a GOOD thing?
to build on what Dan was saying, sometimes those non-paying stories DO lead to greater things, it is promotion, it is something online that is always there, as opposed to a sold out journal or distant UK magazine that costs $20 + shipping – i’ve personally had people come to me after reading my work up at places like Dogmatika or Word Riot or 3:AM and ask me to contribute to anthologies or to see my manuscript – it CAN help, it CAN lead to greater things, it CAN inspire others
and those are all good things
but if you can find a way to help the publishers and authors make money, by all means toss it out there brother
peace,
richard
hmmmmmmm…thanks Dan for the thoughtful post
@ anyreads – i think we’re talking about two connected, but different things, from the original post:
“…but still, people really appreciate the work We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more…”
two things here:
people appreciate the work
we need the money more
ain’t that the truth? i think this is why more and more people are going online, and avoiding print costs, but i don’t think the printed book or journal will ever go away, we just have to change the business models a bit, and that’s why i mentioned a couple of different things, different projects that people are trying
you ARE mocking, even though you say you aren’t, and i mentioned at least one example (Shya’s FORECAST 42) that shows you CAN post up your work online for NO MONEY and have it turn into something else, more concrete maybe, that DOES pay
mocking:
“…i will get my own dingdongdaddy…”
“…everyboardy has his her it they them own thought’s can type out on a screen and put on internet you very own journal your own magazine / tv station / hollywood marquis / newspaper and everything else, make your own paparazzi & print own moneee (color inkjett)…”
now, i laughed at some of that, but then i got pissed
SURE we’d all love to make money on every story we write, but that’s just not a reality – there really are not that many publications that pay professional rates (.05 a word and up), and most of those are at a 1% acceptance rate or don’t take unsolicited stories ANYWAY so…what are we to do, just say screw it? no, we find other ways, prestigious journals, cool zines, alternative projects like graphic novels and online serializations
these stories, and i’d like to include colored chalk and sideshow fables as well as SO MANY fantastic online and print publications, give us tons of great stories, entertainment and enlightenment, and isn’t that a GOOD thing?
to build on what Dan was saying, sometimes those non-paying stories DO lead to greater things, it is promotion, it is something online that is always there, as opposed to a sold out journal or distant UK magazine that costs $20 + shipping – i’ve personally had people come to me after reading my work up at places like Dogmatika or Word Riot or 3:AM and ask me to contribute to anthologies or to see my manuscript – it CAN help, it CAN lead to greater things, it CAN inspire others
and those are all good things
but if you can find a way to help the publishers and authors make money, by all means toss it out there brother
peace,
richard
richard
will never mock you but will always get frustrated pissed at the idea of tiny webzines as a solution for anything and mock it terribly (not you tho still not ever you) – with a note of bitterness too please remember: i had a hundred of them, maybe more, had a whole lot of it and now i mock em all (bitterly more than you’d know) and also i’m telling you i know from vast experience of myself and others too (many lost souls working like this for years and in the end it’s nothing)
i see that it does nothing (except selfsatisfaction of “a story out on my website” kind of feeling, if that’s what you want) but as for having people read it (or making it a job & not hobby) it does zero, nothing, and no steps toward any career of it & that’s the big problem
actually the problem is something serious is going on in publishing and the answers going to be completely different, from somewhere else, and nothing like we’re expecting – here’s an example you’re talking about five cents and up as pro rates.
did you know
asja, author’s guild and others (professional groups for all the big names, “real” writers who do it as their jobs) have a very different idea of “pro rates” – like, a dollar a word, and even more, pushing close now to two dollars a word. that’s the pay rate for the pros
but not for us (shortstories, poems, anything nonfiction)
why?
it wasn’t like this 20 years ago
there never was this big divide
suddenly fiction got a disconnect
vanity fair, vogue, cosmo, good housekeeping, o
we can name ‘real’ mags all day
(& certainly they’re all getting dumber too)
but for stories, poems?
also
richard
just remember boat is sinking bad, we’re both on it, maybe got different ideas bout what to do and what happens after & that’s fine (we need lots of different approaches cuz the problem is so big & bad) (and at least we say there is a problem plenty on the boat insist it’s all just fine) but whatever we do let’s not ever push each other down k? i promise will stay out of your wake & toss you all the lines i find
richard
will never mock you but will always get frustrated pissed at the idea of tiny webzines as a solution for anything and mock it terribly (not you tho still not ever you) – with a note of bitterness too please remember: i had a hundred of them, maybe more, had a whole lot of it and now i mock em all (bitterly more than you’d know) and also i’m telling you i know from vast experience of myself and others too (many lost souls working like this for years and in the end it’s nothing)
i see that it does nothing (except selfsatisfaction of “a story out on my website” kind of feeling, if that’s what you want) but as for having people read it (or making it a job & not hobby) it does zero, nothing, and no steps toward any career of it & that’s the big problem
actually the problem is something serious is going on in publishing and the answers going to be completely different, from somewhere else, and nothing like we’re expecting – here’s an example you’re talking about five cents and up as pro rates.
did you know
asja, author’s guild and others (professional groups for all the big names, “real” writers who do it as their jobs) have a very different idea of “pro rates” – like, a dollar a word, and even more, pushing close now to two dollars a word. that’s the pay rate for the pros
but not for us (shortstories, poems, anything nonfiction)
why?
it wasn’t like this 20 years ago
there never was this big divide
suddenly fiction got a disconnect
vanity fair, vogue, cosmo, good housekeeping, o
we can name ‘real’ mags all day
(& certainly they’re all getting dumber too)
but for stories, poems?
also
richard
just remember boat is sinking bad, we’re both on it, maybe got different ideas bout what to do and what happens after & that’s fine (we need lots of different approaches cuz the problem is so big & bad) (and at least we say there is a problem plenty on the boat insist it’s all just fine) but whatever we do let’s not ever push each other down k? i promise will stay out of your wake & toss you all the lines i find
“but as for having people read it (or making it a job & not hobby) it does zero, nothing, and no steps toward any career of it & that’s the big problem”
i’ll disagree with this again, it may not happen often, but it does happen, you just can’t say that web fiction is worthless, i won’t allow it, there is value, there is considerable talent, and it does sometimes lead to bigger and better things – look at blake, look at shya, look at emma straub, and there are many other stories and authors i’m missing, those are just the latest
“but whatever we do let’s not ever push each other down k? i promise will stay out of your wake & toss you all the lines i find”
i’m down with that, and am open to ideas – i do agree that there are problems, big problems, and who knows where this will all go – appreciate the line, anyreads
peace,
richard
“but as for having people read it (or making it a job & not hobby) it does zero, nothing, and no steps toward any career of it & that’s the big problem”
i’ll disagree with this again, it may not happen often, but it does happen, you just can’t say that web fiction is worthless, i won’t allow it, there is value, there is considerable talent, and it does sometimes lead to bigger and better things – look at blake, look at shya, look at emma straub, and there are many other stories and authors i’m missing, those are just the latest
“but whatever we do let’s not ever push each other down k? i promise will stay out of your wake & toss you all the lines i find”
i’m down with that, and am open to ideas – i do agree that there are problems, big problems, and who knows where this will all go – appreciate the line, anyreads
peace,
richard
[…] decision to kill the print edition of TriQuarterly, has been bouncing around the blogs the last day or two, but one thing missing from the discussion is what it […]
What you are saying makes me mad. You seem to be implying that when I limit my subscriptions to 2 or 3 journals at a time and then switch to others, that I am being a hypocrite if I express my dismay at the news of another literary journal.
Well, on my teacher salary, I have to make choices. Every $35-40 subscription is just like a pair of shoes my kids could be wearing simply walking out the door.
It is sad that we see this sort of thing happening, but the fact that people aren’t all subscribing ourselves into bankruptcy doesn’t make us hypocrites.
What you are saying makes me mad. You seem to be implying that when I limit my subscriptions to 2 or 3 journals at a time and then switch to others, that I am being a hypocrite if I express my dismay at the news of another literary journal.
Well, on my teacher salary, I have to make choices. Every $35-40 subscription is just like a pair of shoes my kids could be wearing simply walking out the door.
It is sad that we see this sort of thing happening, but the fact that people aren’t all subscribing ourselves into bankruptcy doesn’t make us hypocrites.
I really dont’ think that is what Roxane meant. I think she was talking about people that don’t subscribe to any.
I really dont’ think that is what Roxane meant. I think she was talking about people that don’t subscribe to any.
yes!!!
yes!!!
Quote:
I have to wonder about the hypocrisy of it all. People say they can’t subscribe to every journal or that they can’t afford to subscribe or they don’t believe in acquiring things or a wide range of other excuses but still, people really appreciate the work We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more.
No, I think that’s exactly what she meant.
Quote:
I have to wonder about the hypocrisy of it all. People say they can’t subscribe to every journal or that they can’t afford to subscribe or they don’t believe in acquiring things or a wide range of other excuses but still, people really appreciate the work We appreciate your appreciation but we like and need your money more.
No, I think that’s exactly what she meant.
Actually no that’s not what I meant. I’m talking to people who talk a lot of nonsense about the demise of publishing but don’t bother to subscribe or buy single-issues of any journals and don’t buy books. I’m a graduate student. Believe me, I know poverty. No one should go broke buying lit mags.
Lincoln, that’s exactly what I meant.
Actually no that’s not what I meant. I’m talking to people who talk a lot of nonsense about the demise of publishing but don’t bother to subscribe or buy single-issues of any journals and don’t buy books. I’m a graduate student. Believe me, I know poverty. No one should go broke buying lit mags.
Lincoln, that’s exactly what I meant.
[…] expresses ambivalence, asking if the new TriQ will “just be subsumed by the cloud?” HTML Giant places the blame on everyone who didn’t subscribe to the old TriQ, raising the heated issue of why we […]