Craft Notes
Thoughts on Submission (SFW)
These are some thoughts in response to Sean Lovelace’s post the other day, which asked “You do send your Very Best work Every time when submitting to a literary magazine, right?”It started out in the comment thread, but then I decided that his question deserved more of a commitment than that. Here goes.
I think this idea of “best” vs “not-best” is based on a fundamental, and mistaken notion that *every*thing one writes ought to be published. One-offs, exercises, middling poems and pieces of “flash”–well I already wrote it, the logic goes, so why not place it *some*where?
I wrote about this, a little bit, in a post that was really about problems of definition w/r/t the avant-garde, but I think the basic logic holds. People love to quote Beckett’s admonition to always “fail better” (I personally prefer Barthelme’s vision of “great glittering failures like a reason for our lives” that “try as we may, we cannot do other than fail and fail absolutely and that the task will remain always before us, like a meaning for our lives”) but I think that they are less eager to admit that part of the experience of failing is its utterness. [UPDATE: and which the correct version of the Barthelme quote makes totally clear.] If you find even some modest salvage of your effort–ie publishing in a shitty journal, but “at least getting published”–you haven’t truly failed, and therefore have failed to take the full measure of value from either your failure-as-a-learning-experience OR your getting-published-as-a-“success.”
I think that one of the great flaws in our scene is that even as we have recreated what “publishing” means, we haven’t re-thought what it means to “be published” or to “submit work,” and the result is a kind of hyper-inflation of publishing credentials. When everyone is getting “published” in 40 “journals” a month, what do these terms even mean, and what is their value qua the individual, or that individual’s body of work qua literature?
And I don’t mean to excuse myself from this critique. As I wrote in that old post, I am–or was, before my thinking changed–as guilty of this as anyone else. (And certainly, for a writer who doesn’t view this model as a problem, there would be nothing to feel “guilty” of.) But my own experience of the urge to “be everywhere” or publish as much material as widely as possible was that it often resulted in one of two things, either (1) “gaming the system” by sending out work that I knew wasn’t my best, but which I knew was good enough for the venue I was targeting (I think this is what Sean was getting at in his post) or else (2) sending out work that was still so fresh I didn’t have enough perspective on it to know whether it was something I would be proud of, or even want to have out there in the world, over the long term–longer, that is, than it takes to attach the word .doc and click submit. This was work that I felt strongly about at the time, because it was the freshest and most vivid in my own writerly-mind, and time proved me either right or wrong, but even w/r/t pieces that turned out satisfying, it must be admitted that in the instant of decision, I was absolutely firing blind.
I think this model–the online/indie-lit model–values output over either production OR consumption (because really, who is going to read all this stuff?) and I think that this is a function of digital culture–accelerated by the natural tendencies of American culture–which tends to value the fact of presence over the particulars of what’s presented. As we remake the world from the bottom up (top down? inside out? outside in? nobody really knows where we all exist relative to the idea of a “center” that itself may be little more than a fiction) it’s up to us to identify the flaws in our behaviors and assumptions, and to figure out how to overcome them. As Marilynne Robinson pointed out in a Harper’s essay I don’t have in front of me right now to cite (but am pretty sure I’ve cited on this site before), when someone quotes Pound’s injunction to “make it new,” they tend to put all the emphasis on the “new,” or, if they are being contrarian, on the fact that emphasizing “new” comes at the expense of emphasizing “make.” But nobody, it seems, ever puts the emphasis on “it”–the object of creation, the thing itself.
Save for a handful of book reviews–and, obviously, this blog, which is no small part of my writing-life–I have spent the entire past year or so of my life putting all of my creative energy into a novel. I haven’t written more than a few poems (certainly nothing that would ever be “submitted”) and not a single short story. I haven’t sent any of the novel excerpts out (which isn’t to say I won’t–only that I haven’t). Having literally nothing to send out on submission has afforded me a lot of perspective on the way that whole process works–it has forced a slowing-down, not unlike how a cold forces you to take the bed rest your healthy self needed at least as badly, but which healthy-you would not make the time to take. I feel better moving slower, with more deliberation and intent, and what work I do send out now–reviews, blog posts, whatever–tends to be stronger, to my own eye at least. I also find that I have a more developed sense of my work as really being mine, not a means to the end of getting published, but the end in itself. The result of this is that even when I have something to send out, odds are decent that I’m still not going to. In a culture that demands constant participation and production, standing-apart, or even just slowing down, puts you against the common grain, which is usually the right place to be.
All hail Saint Bartleby!
The question to an editor–whether they’ve solicited you, you’re submitting through the slush pile, or anything in between–should not be “can I be in your magazine?” The proper question is “are you interested in my work?” If the answer is yes, then wonderful, if not, then so be it, but it’s the way in which you choose to ask the question–rather than the question’s answer–that is what’s truly telling. I think.
Tags: Sean Lovelace, Submissions
Like this a lot.
Like this a lot.
nailed it.
nailed it.
I agree very strongly with about 95% of this.
I do not believe that my work exists in the sense I want it to exist until it has been read, but nor do I believe all of my work should exist in this sense, or that any of it has a right to.
I agree very strongly with about 95% of this.
I do not believe that my work exists in the sense I want it to exist until it has been read, but nor do I believe all of my work should exist in this sense, or that any of it has a right to.
I always envy your clarity of thought and expression. Good call and good time to make it. I’m sure you thought of this, but it’s interesting to note, however, that if it weren’t for your earlier urges to be everywhere, you wouldn’t be in the position to make this call today, for hundreds to read and hopefully take to.
I always envy your clarity of thought and expression. Good call and good time to make it. I’m sure you thought of this, but it’s interesting to note, however, that if it weren’t for your earlier urges to be everywhere, you wouldn’t be in the position to make this call today, for hundreds to read and hopefully take to.
these are important and interesting distinctions you’re making, esp the idea of the model often valueing output over production (quantity over quality), and the notion of consumption (because yes, in the digital age, no one can read all our stuff).
i’m now going to say that my comment here counts as a publication. my cv now reads: “published at htmlgiant 1207 times”
these are important and interesting distinctions you’re making, esp the idea of the model often valueing output over production (quantity over quality), and the notion of consumption (because yes, in the digital age, no one can read all our stuff).
i’m now going to say that my comment here counts as a publication. my cv now reads: “published at htmlgiant 1207 times”
never posted here before, but i really enjoyed this. thanks.
never posted here before, but i really enjoyed this. thanks.
I have a “how to” publish class session every semester. It goes over basics of submissions, etc. that most writer’s know and I give them a list of all the mistakes I’ve made so maybe they want, blah, blar.
BUT
I begin the class saying, “Publication is not the end all to writing. It’s OK to just write, as an intellectual exercise, period.”
I like to run to train for races.
I also like to run to run, for the running, with no race in mind.
Same with writing.
I have a “how to” publish class session every semester. It goes over basics of submissions, etc. that most writer’s know and I give them a list of all the mistakes I’ve made so maybe they want, blah, blar.
BUT
I begin the class saying, “Publication is not the end all to writing. It’s OK to just write, as an intellectual exercise, period.”
I like to run to train for races.
I also like to run to run, for the running, with no race in mind.
Same with writing.
great post
great post
This is a great post. I had a similar experience when I turned from writing/submitting stories to working on a novel. All of the sudden, I had nothing to send out and it felt really weird at first, almost made me kind of panicky, but eventually led to a re-evaluation of how I was approaching the whole process. I’m back to having some new work to send out, but find that I’m approaching submissions differently.
This is a great post. I had a similar experience when I turned from writing/submitting stories to working on a novel. All of the sudden, I had nothing to send out and it felt really weird at first, almost made me kind of panicky, but eventually led to a re-evaluation of how I was approaching the whole process. I’m back to having some new work to send out, but find that I’m approaching submissions differently.
Yes, on all fronts, esp: “American culture… tends to value the fact of presence over the particulars of what’s presented.”
And yet: “Who is going to read all this stuff?”
New to e-lit scene after years publishing in alt-weekly circles (journalism) I’d like to know from y’all: Who does read all this stuff (i.e., hard numbers)? Do site owners/eds/publishers ever say (publicly) know (for real)?
I’ve often wondered the same re: old-school hard copy, but you know you’re read by many when you get a cover story or prime spot in featured section of newspaper or column in magazine and circulation’s 100,000+. But online I’m guessing it’s harder to tell? With endless content “always on,” a click’s a click’s a click, si? Which doesn’t mean a close read. Or is all this e-lit not meant to be closely read, vs, say, Beckett or Barthelme? Is it about presence over particulars? Either or, so what?
And yet… is htmlgiant or monkeybicycle or 3:AM fiction more widely read than the fiction in Harper’s (where fewer folks go for fiction) or ZYZZYVA (who reads *entire* lit mags? how do you read small lit mags? does anyone read lit mags on paper anymore)?
A few of my Q’s… any A’s appreciated.
Yes, on all fronts, esp: “American culture… tends to value the fact of presence over the particulars of what’s presented.”
And yet: “Who is going to read all this stuff?”
New to e-lit scene after years publishing in alt-weekly circles (journalism) I’d like to know from y’all: Who does read all this stuff (i.e., hard numbers)? Do site owners/eds/publishers ever say (publicly) know (for real)?
I’ve often wondered the same re: old-school hard copy, but you know you’re read by many when you get a cover story or prime spot in featured section of newspaper or column in magazine and circulation’s 100,000+. But online I’m guessing it’s harder to tell? With endless content “always on,” a click’s a click’s a click, si? Which doesn’t mean a close read. Or is all this e-lit not meant to be closely read, vs, say, Beckett or Barthelme? Is it about presence over particulars? Either or, so what?
And yet… is htmlgiant or monkeybicycle or 3:AM fiction more widely read than the fiction in Harper’s (where fewer folks go for fiction) or ZYZZYVA (who reads *entire* lit mags? how do you read small lit mags? does anyone read lit mags on paper anymore)?
A few of my Q’s… any A’s appreciated.
Almost nothing is “closely read” in a demonstrable way. People read things online at work, which means they don’t really read them. But the same goes for magazines — they’re read in dentists’ offices, and bathrooms, and so on. I find it’s best not to worry about these things.
Almost nothing is “closely read” in a demonstrable way. People read things online at work, which means they don’t really read them. But the same goes for magazines — they’re read in dentists’ offices, and bathrooms, and so on. I find it’s best not to worry about these things.
i’m often described as being all over the net — like splatter. but that doesn’t mean my writing isn’t premeditated and hard-won because, i can tell you, it is. i do little else but write and teach and read. i write to breathe. i breathe to write. my life makes no sense to me when i’m not writing — and doesn’t make a whole lot more sense to me when i am (in case anyone’s looking for themes in my oeuvre).
there is a presumption throughout your essay that many editors are fools, and many online journals have no or extremely low standards. i haven’t found that to be the case. of course, some journals are harder to break into than others, but i’m not sure the reason is always because their standards are higher. i sometimes think it’s because they only publish their friends, acquaintances, and classmates.
i don’t have a mfa. i have no formal training poetry. i’m self-taught — if you can call someone with a ph.d. in american studies from the university of michigan self-taught. maybe this gives me a skewed perspective on this discussion, and maybe if i began publishing poetry in my thirties rather than in my fifties, i wouldn’t feel the pressure to publish that i do. there’s nothing quite like a growing sense of one’s mortality to get one to apply oneself to the task at hand — which, to me, is poetry.
i’m often described as being all over the net — like splatter. but that doesn’t mean my writing isn’t premeditated and hard-won because, i can tell you, it is. i do little else but write and teach and read. i write to breathe. i breathe to write. my life makes no sense to me when i’m not writing — and doesn’t make a whole lot more sense to me when i am (in case anyone’s looking for themes in my oeuvre).
there is a presumption throughout your essay that many editors are fools, and many online journals have no or extremely low standards. i haven’t found that to be the case. of course, some journals are harder to break into than others, but i’m not sure the reason is always because their standards are higher. i sometimes think it’s because they only publish their friends, acquaintances, and classmates.
i don’t have a mfa. i have no formal training poetry. i’m self-taught — if you can call someone with a ph.d. in american studies from the university of michigan self-taught. maybe this gives me a skewed perspective on this discussion, and maybe if i began publishing poetry in my thirties rather than in my fifties, i wouldn’t feel the pressure to publish that i do. there’s nothing quite like a growing sense of one’s mortality to get one to apply oneself to the task at hand — which, to me, is poetry.
I’m on board with this post entirely except I’d tweak one thing:
[i]In a culture that demands constant participation and production, standing-apart, or even just slowing down, puts you against the common grain, which is usually the right place to be.[/i]
Does this culture (american culture or indie lit culture?) DEMAND constant participation or merely ENABLE constant participation?
I’m totally with you on the submitting 300 pieces and publishing 50 of them a year in random magazines thing. What does “publishing’ even mean there? But I also question it, because is there actually an advantage? What does publishing a thousand things in small unread magazines ad up to? Does it make people take your work more seriously? Does it work as a stepping ladder? Do agents take more notice? It seems unlikely.
For me, personally, I tend to write off writers who seem to publish endlessly because I make the assumption they have no quality control on their work. If that’s the case, why even take the time to read the piece in front of me? It likely hasn’t even been revised twice.
Of course, like Justin I also sent out too much work that wasn’t finished up till a year or two ago, so part of my feeling is just anger at myself.
I’m on board with this post entirely except I’d tweak one thing:
[i]In a culture that demands constant participation and production, standing-apart, or even just slowing down, puts you against the common grain, which is usually the right place to be.[/i]
Does this culture (american culture or indie lit culture?) DEMAND constant participation or merely ENABLE constant participation?
I’m totally with you on the submitting 300 pieces and publishing 50 of them a year in random magazines thing. What does “publishing’ even mean there? But I also question it, because is there actually an advantage? What does publishing a thousand things in small unread magazines ad up to? Does it make people take your work more seriously? Does it work as a stepping ladder? Do agents take more notice? It seems unlikely.
For me, personally, I tend to write off writers who seem to publish endlessly because I make the assumption they have no quality control on their work. If that’s the case, why even take the time to read the piece in front of me? It likely hasn’t even been revised twice.
Of course, like Justin I also sent out too much work that wasn’t finished up till a year or two ago, so part of my feeling is just anger at myself.
At the same time, I do feel writers don’t often know what their best work is. Often stories I’ve thought were only so-so got the best reception from writers/editors I’ve showed them too and stories I thought were fantastic have never been published. And there are plenty of writers who seem paralyzed by perfection and thus never send out. So focusing too much on the best work can be a problem as well…but certainly the other side’s problems seems more pervasive these days.
At the same time, I do feel writers don’t often know what their best work is. Often stories I’ve thought were only so-so got the best reception from writers/editors I’ve showed them too and stories I thought were fantastic have never been published. And there are plenty of writers who seem paralyzed by perfection and thus never send out. So focusing too much on the best work can be a problem as well…but certainly the other side’s problems seems more pervasive these days.
This is true, but I do think a lot of websites vastly overrate their readers by counting on “views.” In line with the submitting culture we are talking about, I’d be willing to be that most views to a lit mag site are from potential submitters who are just clicking around the site to see if the e-mag seems worthy of submissions, glancing at a few sentences to make sure the style is somewhat in line with your own, etc. with little actual reading going on.
This is true, but I do think a lot of websites vastly overrate their readers by counting on “views.” In line with the submitting culture we are talking about, I’d be willing to be that most views to a lit mag site are from potential submitters who are just clicking around the site to see if the e-mag seems worthy of submissions, glancing at a few sentences to make sure the style is somewhat in line with your own, etc. with little actual reading going on.
I’d like to know from y’all: Who does read all this stuff (i.e., hard numbers)? Do site owners/eds/publishers ever say (publicly) know (for real)?
Lit mags really run the gamut from zines published for and read by a dozen of your friends to massively circulated glossies so a hard question to answer.
I’d like to know from y’all: Who does read all this stuff (i.e., hard numbers)? Do site owners/eds/publishers ever say (publicly) know (for real)?
Lit mags really run the gamut from zines published for and read by a dozen of your friends to massively circulated glossies so a hard question to answer.
not worrying, wonderin… cogitating… affirming my view that multimedia “lit” publishing is the future-now.
not worrying, wonderin… cogitating… affirming my view that multimedia “lit” publishing is the future-now.
i went kind of through this similarly last year while i was writing early drafts of my novel and yeah. now i kind of look at my list of publications and think, okay. time to slow down. suddenly its more like im quality driven instead of quantity, but not even ‘quality’ in a universal sense, more just trying to put words down that are as interesting to me as i can possibly make them. why am i writing and publishing at all? because i’m fascinated when words come out of me and become somewhere else. so longevity is more important, because i hate that i’ve published some things in the past that i cringe at now. the internet is dangerous, it lets a little too much in the door sometimes. but i never want to cringe at something i wrote again so i’m more careful now. i let things sit for months before sending to make sure when i read it again it will still be interesting to me as reader.
Also, I have a file titled Rough and it has hundreds of flash I will never attempt to place anywhere. I am actually arguing for writing with no intent to ever place.
i went kind of through this similarly last year while i was writing early drafts of my novel and yeah. now i kind of look at my list of publications and think, okay. time to slow down. suddenly its more like im quality driven instead of quantity, but not even ‘quality’ in a universal sense, more just trying to put words down that are as interesting to me as i can possibly make them. why am i writing and publishing at all? because i’m fascinated when words come out of me and become somewhere else. so longevity is more important, because i hate that i’ve published some things in the past that i cringe at now. the internet is dangerous, it lets a little too much in the door sometimes. but i never want to cringe at something i wrote again so i’m more careful now. i let things sit for months before sending to make sure when i read it again it will still be interesting to me as reader.
Also, I have a file titled Rough and it has hundreds of flash I will never attempt to place anywhere. I am actually arguing for writing with no intent to ever place.
then why submit on the micro scale? why not work exclusively on something more… GIGANTIC and find/found distribution/publication channels once the project is in full swing?
then why submit on the micro scale? why not work exclusively on something more… GIGANTIC and find/found distribution/publication channels once the project is in full swing?
And…
I am wondering how many readers here are in academia or thinking about that future, etc.
Publish or perish is a known cliche, but where do you think it got it’s ring?
There are very real academic pressures to publish. In fact, one colleague of me was writing a longer work (book) and so was NOT sending things out to publish for a few years (same example as Justin’s above). She had to write “essays” alongside that book so she could send the essays out for publication. She did this totally out of a need for ongoing publication, as a junior faculty.
Publication might also give a writer the ability to stop editing a piece. I mean it’s a relief.
It might also work as a goal to actually instigate writing. Like some take my CW classes (older students) just so someone will give them an assignment.
I could go on, which means this was an interesting post.
And…
I am wondering how many readers here are in academia or thinking about that future, etc.
Publish or perish is a known cliche, but where do you think it got it’s ring?
There are very real academic pressures to publish. In fact, one colleague of me was writing a longer work (book) and so was NOT sending things out to publish for a few years (same example as Justin’s above). She had to write “essays” alongside that book so she could send the essays out for publication. She did this totally out of a need for ongoing publication, as a junior faculty.
Publication might also give a writer the ability to stop editing a piece. I mean it’s a relief.
It might also work as a goal to actually instigate writing. Like some take my CW classes (older students) just so someone will give them an assignment.
I could go on, which means this was an interesting post.
care to share some gigantic numbers?
care to share some gigantic numbers?
i had that idea of taking a CW course just to get assignments to write, but it was a horrible mistake and i dropped the class after two sessions.
i had that idea of taking a CW course just to get assignments to write, but it was a horrible mistake and i dropped the class after two sessions.
Yes, I have written things that I felt absolutely confident would be published within a month, and I am still trying to find a place for them half a year later. And then there are the things I thought I would never publish, which have been, well, published.
Yes, I have written things that I felt absolutely confident would be published within a month, and I am still trying to find a place for them half a year later. And then there are the things I thought I would never publish, which have been, well, published.
or its
or its
I don’t need assignments. I need TIME… to write, to read, to create, to live outside of writing/reading/creating but also to engage in lit/arts community…
hey darby, care to share abjective #’s? how many readers check in every saturday or throughout the week per typical piece?
I don’t need assignments. I need TIME… to write, to read, to create, to live outside of writing/reading/creating but also to engage in lit/arts community…
hey darby, care to share abjective #’s? how many readers check in every saturday or throughout the week per typical piece?
well, there is that. at my school, you can’t qualify for consideration for the annual merit raise without a publication (or three). i does enter into the calculation of submitting. i’m not ready to repeal my earlier comment, but i am willing to admit that one’s motives may be more complicated — euphemism for mercenary — than may first appear to oneself.
well, there is that. at my school, you can’t qualify for consideration for the annual merit raise without a publication (or three). i does enter into the calculation of submitting. i’m not ready to repeal my earlier comment, but i am willing to admit that one’s motives may be more complicated — euphemism for mercenary — than may first appear to oneself.
We published 1,000 copies of our first issue and probably have 200 (?) or so left.
Issue 2 coming this month!
We published 1,000 copies of our first issue and probably have 200 (?) or so left.
Issue 2 coming this month!
I started submitting to various sites about six months ago. During this time, I’ve admittedly become a sort of “submitting whore.” And yes, I do see the same names in many places. I recently entered a pretty damn good MFA program on the west coast. And during this short time, I’ve come to recognize the quality over quantity in my work. I’ve had a fair amount of poems published. Looking back, I wish I hung onto those poems longer before sending them out. There are so many spots for revision. But in my haste to add another zany-titled lit mag to my resume, I somewhat compromised the integrity of my work. So I’m gonna’ chill and send out only when ready. And submitting is time consuming as well. When I see those people that are everywhere, I wonder if “whoredom” has overtaken their lives (if they had a life to begin with).
I started submitting to various sites about six months ago. During this time, I’ve admittedly become a sort of “submitting whore.” And yes, I do see the same names in many places. I recently entered a pretty damn good MFA program on the west coast. And during this short time, I’ve come to recognize the quality over quantity in my work. I’ve had a fair amount of poems published. Looking back, I wish I hung onto those poems longer before sending them out. There are so many spots for revision. But in my haste to add another zany-titled lit mag to my resume, I somewhat compromised the integrity of my work. So I’m gonna’ chill and send out only when ready. And submitting is time consuming as well. When I see those people that are everywhere, I wonder if “whoredom” has overtaken their lives (if they had a life to begin with).
i have no idea. i dont track it. if i tracked it then i might start to care about that.
i have no idea. i dont track it. if i tracked it then i might start to care about that.
Personally, I tend to have several different projects going at once. It doesn’t work for everyone, but I like having options. Especially if I’m stuck on a particular story or poem, I can just edit/revise my novel or vice-versa. I don’t submit to zines anymore. Online or in print. I am part of a collaborative blog with some friends, and if I feel the need to put something up that I’ve written, then I do.
I don’t read many print zines, and the online zines that get the most readers (that I read) seem too exclusive or geared toward a fixed mode of thought.
I like what Sean says about writing just to write.
Personally, I tend to have several different projects going at once. It doesn’t work for everyone, but I like having options. Especially if I’m stuck on a particular story or poem, I can just edit/revise my novel or vice-versa. I don’t submit to zines anymore. Online or in print. I am part of a collaborative blog with some friends, and if I feel the need to put something up that I’ve written, then I do.
I don’t read many print zines, and the online zines that get the most readers (that I read) seem too exclusive or geared toward a fixed mode of thought.
I like what Sean says about writing just to write.
which program. antioch?
which program. antioch?
i took a CW class when I was working fulltime as an RN (years ago), It worked for me. Jeanne Leiby was my prof, and she bad rad.
http://jeanneleiby.com/
i took a CW class when I was working fulltime as an RN (years ago), It worked for me. Jeanne Leiby was my prof, and she bad rad.
http://jeanneleiby.com/
Yeah Darby.
Yeah Darby.
it sounds like everyone sends out work at one time or another that isn’t “finished” — not because they’re sloppy or opportunistic, but because at the time it seems to them that it IS finished. I’m reminded of an observation of Victor Hugo’s that I share with my students: “Nothing is ever finished; it’s just abandoned.” How many stories have we all heard of legendary writers attempting to revise even after their works have been put in press?
it sounds like everyone sends out work at one time or another that isn’t “finished” — not because they’re sloppy or opportunistic, but because at the time it seems to them that it IS finished. I’m reminded of an observation of Victor Hugo’s that I share with my students: “Nothing is ever finished; it’s just abandoned.” How many stories have we all heard of legendary writers attempting to revise even after their works have been put in press?
congrats, lincoln. solid numbers for new mag, I say.
congrats, lincoln. solid numbers for new mag, I say.
great post justin.
great post justin.
I hear ya, Darby. I kinda believe doing the work is primary, obviously, and even if not put out there it still creates a living, breathing energy, then when said work does emerge in whatever form to however many others, that energy expands, reforms, procreates… multiply this process by the countless millions around the world, and we’re looking at global revolution, conscious or collective unconscious, no? Which brings us back to doing the work is primary.
I hear ya, Darby. I kinda believe doing the work is primary, obviously, and even if not put out there it still creates a living, breathing energy, then when said work does emerge in whatever form to however many others, that energy expands, reforms, procreates… multiply this process by the countless millions around the world, and we’re looking at global revolution, conscious or collective unconscious, no? Which brings us back to doing the work is primary.
very well said, justin
very well said, justin
oooh reminded me of a david gates quote: “don’t publish your juvenalia”
oooh reminded me of a david gates quote: “don’t publish your juvenalia”
You make a very valid point about academia, however I imagine in academia you really only need to publish a few times and likely in selective places and not 40 times a month in small zines (to paraphrase Justin’s post)
You make a very valid point about academia, however I imagine in academia you really only need to publish a few times and likely in selective places and not 40 times a month in small zines (to paraphrase Justin’s post)
eloquent and keen, justin-sir
eloquent and keen, justin-sir
it depends. if you’re on tenure track, you may come up for reappointment a couple of times before the tenure decision. someone is bound to be counting your accruing of publication credits. it’s a nasty process in which it is very easy to lose sight of the true ends of writing and research — to enlarge human knowledge and the human heart, or just the human.
it depends. if you’re on tenure track, you may come up for reappointment a couple of times before the tenure decision. someone is bound to be counting your accruing of publication credits. it’s a nasty process in which it is very easy to lose sight of the true ends of writing and research — to enlarge human knowledge and the human heart, or just the human.
didn’t milton say something about “fame” being the infirmity of noble minds? is submitting mania a sublimated version of the quest for fame?
didn’t milton say something about “fame” being the infirmity of noble minds? is submitting mania a sublimated version of the quest for fame?
you know, this is getting to be more fun than metsblog.com
you know, this is getting to be more fun than metsblog.com
Intellectually, I agree with much of what you say here but I also think that if we’re talking about matters of definition, what is a “shitty journal”? Who makes that determination? Who cares what other writers do? If some people write to publish (something I don’t think is ideal but is no less valid an approach than writing just to write and keeping those words to yourself), how does that affect your (generally speaking) craft? For younger writers, a publication in an obscure journal is as significant as a publication in a top journal or a book deal (which several people here do have) might be for a more experienced writer. I find a lot of this conversation really interesting but also sort of elitist. I’m an elitist myself in many ways but I think if we’re going to talk about “shitty publications” and people who choose a different publishing path than the one others might choose, we need to acknowledge that this conversation is about more than matters of integrity. We’re being judgmental, too.
Intellectually, I agree with much of what you say here but I also think that if we’re talking about matters of definition, what is a “shitty journal”? Who makes that determination? Who cares what other writers do? If some people write to publish (something I don’t think is ideal but is no less valid an approach than writing just to write and keeping those words to yourself), how does that affect your (generally speaking) craft? For younger writers, a publication in an obscure journal is as significant as a publication in a top journal or a book deal (which several people here do have) might be for a more experienced writer. I find a lot of this conversation really interesting but also sort of elitist. I’m an elitist myself in many ways but I think if we’re going to talk about “shitty publications” and people who choose a different publishing path than the one others might choose, we need to acknowledge that this conversation is about more than matters of integrity. We’re being judgmental, too.
Crucial point, Roxane. Judgment blinds. Openness, um… opens? Alt perspectives/venues matter, always, I’m convinced.
Reminds me of legendary avant-garde composer-improviser Anthony Braxton, who allegedly calls everything he hears magnificent. I would argue that this is fundamentally true, perhaps not aesthetically per historical or contemporary critical criteria, say, but due to the very act of the music/art/story-making.
Crucial point, Roxane. Judgment blinds. Openness, um… opens? Alt perspectives/venues matter, always, I’m convinced.
Reminds me of legendary avant-garde composer-improviser Anthony Braxton, who allegedly calls everything he hears magnificent. I would argue that this is fundamentally true, perhaps not aesthetically per historical or contemporary critical criteria, say, but due to the very act of the music/art/story-making.
Justin, this is very good. And I do agree with most of it–but here’s the thing: how many of you all (HTML contributors and commenters) say that now, after having published a lot and gotten your names and your work out there earlier? Now you can look back and say, oh, wow, I sure wish I’d submitted and published less, but do you really? Honestly? Would you be where you are today if you’d written a couple of stories a year and only been in a few journals, or maybe none? If you hadn’t made connections and forged relationships with other editors and writers? I’m not trying to start a fight, I’m just curious to hear what people think.
(Also, I’m not sure that quantity versus quality is a zero sum game. There are a lot of writers who I see out there all the time in journals and I find all their work to be excellent. Some people are more prolific than others.)
Justin, this is very good. And I do agree with most of it–but here’s the thing: how many of you all (HTML contributors and commenters) say that now, after having published a lot and gotten your names and your work out there earlier? Now you can look back and say, oh, wow, I sure wish I’d submitted and published less, but do you really? Honestly? Would you be where you are today if you’d written a couple of stories a year and only been in a few journals, or maybe none? If you hadn’t made connections and forged relationships with other editors and writers? I’m not trying to start a fight, I’m just curious to hear what people think.
(Also, I’m not sure that quantity versus quality is a zero sum game. There are a lot of writers who I see out there all the time in journals and I find all their work to be excellent. Some people are more prolific than others.)
I don’t mean to speak for Justin, but my guess is that he is talking about writers who submit to journals that they themselves view as “shitty” and not writers who submit to journals they love but which Justin himself doesn’t like.
I don’t mean to speak for Justin, but my guess is that he is talking about writers who submit to journals that they themselves view as “shitty” and not writers who submit to journals they love but which Justin himself doesn’t like.
submitting also works this: 1) i submit two poems to a new-ish online journal; 2) a couple of days later i hear back — one poem is accepted, and the other rejected; 3) and i get an offer to do a poetry e-book from the editor.
it just happened. swear. is that a reason enough to submit? (and did someone above call me a whore? well, if i am, i’m a damn poorly paid one.)
submitting also works this: 1) i submit two poems to a new-ish online journal; 2) a couple of days later i hear back — one poem is accepted, and the other rejected; 3) and i get an offer to do a poetry e-book from the editor.
it just happened. swear. is that a reason enough to submit? (and did someone above call me a whore? well, if i am, i’m a damn poorly paid one.)
agreed, amber. case in point: blake butler. but then… he doesn’t seem to sleep.
You make a great point, Amber. I think this kind of wisdom (which I very much respect) is borne out of experience and a certain level of success. To expect a younger writer to be all zen about publishing versus writing is a little unrealistic and almost unfair. I also don’t think that prolificness (is that a word?) is synonymous with shoddy quality.
agreed, amber. case in point: blake butler. but then… he doesn’t seem to sleep.
You make a great point, Amber. I think this kind of wisdom (which I very much respect) is borne out of experience and a certain level of success. To expect a younger writer to be all zen about publishing versus writing is a little unrealistic and almost unfair. I also don’t think that prolificness (is that a word?) is synonymous with shoddy quality.
a friend emailed me for this same clarification. here is most of what i said;
i think justin’s point is more quality over quantity. people seem to think that publishing anything that comes out SOMEWHERE will do something. but too often, people get so caught up in those numbers and regularity of it that they stop checking what their work is, and it goes out. i did that before i even started ‘publishing everywhere’ for years. tried sending out crap that wasn’t worth reading just because i wanted balls in the air. the period where i was publishing a lot was also because i stopped sending out work for about a year, and just wrote, and the pieces, to me, got better, and i therefore had better work to send out, and a lot of it, that was written without the publishing gear in mind. so the publications came as an afterthought in a way, even if somethign to fixate over in the afterprocess. but they are two different camps.
justin is also referring, i think, to people so caught up on the get it out there vibe that they stop thinking long enough about the work to make it at that level.
honestly, i don’t think appearing in X smalljournal over and over again is what builds an audience. more so, it is really good work appearing in concentrated places. again, that came out of me in a flood, but only after i’d give up the spit it and see what sticks model, and focused on the writing first. i also think one great story in a really great place is worth 100 mediocre stories in any old place. i could name names of people that publish constantly, and at this point it is just whitewash to me, because they have no editing button. they finish a piece, and send it until SOMEONE takes it.
i guess the point is: you can tell when someone has put the time in, and when they haven’t. for some people, that time pours. for others, they are forcing. it all starts with where the writing comes from.
a friend emailed me for this same clarification. here is most of what i said;
i think justin’s point is more quality over quantity. people seem to think that publishing anything that comes out SOMEWHERE will do something. but too often, people get so caught up in those numbers and regularity of it that they stop checking what their work is, and it goes out. i did that before i even started ‘publishing everywhere’ for years. tried sending out crap that wasn’t worth reading just because i wanted balls in the air. the period where i was publishing a lot was also because i stopped sending out work for about a year, and just wrote, and the pieces, to me, got better, and i therefore had better work to send out, and a lot of it, that was written without the publishing gear in mind. so the publications came as an afterthought in a way, even if somethign to fixate over in the afterprocess. but they are two different camps.
justin is also referring, i think, to people so caught up on the get it out there vibe that they stop thinking long enough about the work to make it at that level.
honestly, i don’t think appearing in X smalljournal over and over again is what builds an audience. more so, it is really good work appearing in concentrated places. again, that came out of me in a flood, but only after i’d give up the spit it and see what sticks model, and focused on the writing first. i also think one great story in a really great place is worth 100 mediocre stories in any old place. i could name names of people that publish constantly, and at this point it is just whitewash to me, because they have no editing button. they finish a piece, and send it until SOMEONE takes it.
i guess the point is: you can tell when someone has put the time in, and when they haven’t. for some people, that time pours. for others, they are forcing. it all starts with where the writing comes from.
So far, this month, we’ve had 8,224 unique visitors.That translated into 85,975 page views (2,150 of those views are on the submit page, which turned into roughly 350-400 submissions). Top views for stories were Shaindel Beers (491), Nadine Darling (440), Michael Czyzniejewski (433), etc. Site is 1,823 pages deep (including blog posts and such… dunno how to filter stuff like that out), so an average page on the site got 46 views this month. How to translate that into the number of people actually reading (as opposed to just viewing)? I don’t really know…
So far, this month, we’ve had 8,224 unique visitors.That translated into 85,975 page views (2,150 of those views are on the submit page, which turned into roughly 350-400 submissions). Top views for stories were Shaindel Beers (491), Nadine Darling (440), Michael Czyzniejewski (433), etc. Site is 1,823 pages deep (including blog posts and such… dunno how to filter stuff like that out), so an average page on the site got 46 views this month. How to translate that into the number of people actually reading (as opposed to just viewing)? I don’t really know…
Yes.
Especially now everything is online.
After all, the internet is Andy Warhol’s dream of everyone being famous for 15 minutes, though our attention spans have of course shortened rather alarmingly in the meantime, so it’s more like 15 seconds.
So a long – for long, read encyclopaedic – list of places in which one has featured sometimes (though not always) leaves me with the impression of someone who wishes to validate their quest for fame. Even if that ‘fame’ is within their own experience of the world, i.e. lit mags. In the Noughties (ugh, I just gargled my own phlegm), everyone has wanted a little moment of ‘being a somebody’.
But that’s by the by. I also agree with a lot of what Justin says in his post, though I can’t help but wonder whether the phenomenal rate of submissions we see these days might be tempered somewhat if people truly read and got the feel of one or two journals / lit mags from (virtual) cover to (virtual) cover – including reading the submissions guidelines – rather than pursuing the current popular sport of indiscriminate ‘submissions carpet-bombing’. After all, wouldn’t getting a piece of work in a journal that you truly, truly love mean so much more than getting something in XYZ litmag? I know it would for me.
really good point on the anthony braxton thing. i think the way he means that says a lot about everything. plus, he’s a genius.
Yes.
Especially now everything is online.
After all, the internet is Andy Warhol’s dream of everyone being famous for 15 minutes, though our attention spans have of course shortened rather alarmingly in the meantime, so it’s more like 15 seconds.
So a long – for long, read encyclopaedic – list of places in which one has featured sometimes (though not always) leaves me with the impression of someone who wishes to validate their quest for fame. Even if that ‘fame’ is within their own experience of the world, i.e. lit mags. In the Noughties (ugh, I just gargled my own phlegm), everyone has wanted a little moment of ‘being a somebody’.
But that’s by the by. I also agree with a lot of what Justin says in his post, though I can’t help but wonder whether the phenomenal rate of submissions we see these days might be tempered somewhat if people truly read and got the feel of one or two journals / lit mags from (virtual) cover to (virtual) cover – including reading the submissions guidelines – rather than pursuing the current popular sport of indiscriminate ‘submissions carpet-bombing’. After all, wouldn’t getting a piece of work in a journal that you truly, truly love mean so much more than getting something in XYZ litmag? I know it would for me.
really good point on the anthony braxton thing. i think the way he means that says a lot about everything. plus, he’s a genius.
Love this post, Justin, probably my favorite of yours yet.
And I’m with Roxane, to a degree, although I don’t think it’s being judgmental to say that writers follow certain paths. The path of publishing indiscriminately and often early along the career path seems really common. There’s nothing wrong with it. I love what Ani says: “if it weren’t for your earlier urges to be everywhere, you wouldn’t be in the position to make this call today, for hundreds to read and hopefully take to.” And eventually, it also seems really common on writers’ paths to reach the point that this post speaks to. Not a damned thing wrong with that, either.
Love this post, Justin, probably my favorite of yours yet.
And I’m with Roxane, to a degree, although I don’t think it’s being judgmental to say that writers follow certain paths. The path of publishing indiscriminately and often early along the career path seems really common. There’s nothing wrong with it. I love what Ani says: “if it weren’t for your earlier urges to be everywhere, you wouldn’t be in the position to make this call today, for hundreds to read and hopefully take to.” And eventually, it also seems really common on writers’ paths to reach the point that this post speaks to. Not a damned thing wrong with that, either.
can someone name a journal that’s “worth” submitting to? for me, it’s elimae. an acceptance there always feels like something special. i have spoken to others who feel the same way.
can someone name a journal that’s “worth” submitting to? for me, it’s elimae. an acceptance there always feels like something special. i have spoken to others who feel the same way.
Exactly. And I’m with Roxane on the ‘elitist’ point.
I used to be deeply into theatre, studied Drama at university. Amazing how many talks we had from actors and directors and theatre practitioners who would turn on the keen young students, eagerly wishing to go on to drama schools and get further training, and say “Oh, training isn’t everything. Get out there and into the business! Learn your art that way!” Of course, the next moment they would appear in some interview talking about the importance of training and what a wonderful experience they had whilst at drama school.
In some quarters, I believe it’s called ‘pulling up the drawbridge’ after you, whilst telling others the supposedly proper way to do it.
I don’t mean this to sound as mean or as negative as it might appear, because, as I said, I really do agree with what Justin says, but sometimes things can come across in the wrong way from those who have been down the same route before you.
Exactly. And I’m with Roxane on the ‘elitist’ point.
I used to be deeply into theatre, studied Drama at university. Amazing how many talks we had from actors and directors and theatre practitioners who would turn on the keen young students, eagerly wishing to go on to drama schools and get further training, and say “Oh, training isn’t everything. Get out there and into the business! Learn your art that way!” Of course, the next moment they would appear in some interview talking about the importance of training and what a wonderful experience they had whilst at drama school.
In some quarters, I believe it’s called ‘pulling up the drawbridge’ after you, whilst telling others the supposedly proper way to do it.
I don’t mean this to sound as mean or as negative as it might appear, because, as I said, I really do agree with what Justin says, but sometimes things can come across in the wrong way from those who have been down the same route before you.
Amber, I feel like people are talking about some different things. I can understand the urging of young writers to be validated by publication. And it is understandable that many young writers, myself included, will publish work that they later look back on and groan. That is pretty much to be expected. But I think that is a tad different than publishing a ton of work in a ton of journals that are all on the same “level” and I also think the uber-prolificness is something that occurs amongst more established writers as well (no need to name names here.)
I’m not an established writer really and I don’t regret all of my more youthful publications, but to answer your question I don’t really think my past publications did anything to help me beyond give me confidence.
Things are a little different these days with the internet. At least before that your youthful publications would be lost to history. Now they stick around forever.
Doesn’t genre matter in here?
Like a flash writer, poet is going to have more work and more publications, possibly. A short story writer might have less and less.
I like Blake’s point about quality, the one good story having more weight.
Does anyone else (I do) just break the year into “I am writing now” months and then “My practical side is going to send a few things out” months?
Also, no one has mentioned contests, but maybe that is another post.
Blake (and others in your position), do you think you might submit less once you have a few books under your belt?
I think i would (if ever–fingers crossed–in that position). Like I know years ago Ander Monson subitted a lot to various mags. Not speaking for him, but I do know him well, and I’m not sure he sees the point as much now (though he is gracious when I have asked him for something [Cella’s Round Trip, etc.])
Also: What Blake said.
Amber, I feel like people are talking about some different things. I can understand the urging of young writers to be validated by publication. And it is understandable that many young writers, myself included, will publish work that they later look back on and groan. That is pretty much to be expected. But I think that is a tad different than publishing a ton of work in a ton of journals that are all on the same “level” and I also think the uber-prolificness is something that occurs amongst more established writers as well (no need to name names here.)
I’m not an established writer really and I don’t regret all of my more youthful publications, but to answer your question I don’t really think my past publications did anything to help me beyond give me confidence.
Things are a little different these days with the internet. At least before that your youthful publications would be lost to history. Now they stick around forever.
Doesn’t genre matter in here?
Like a flash writer, poet is going to have more work and more publications, possibly. A short story writer might have less and less.
I like Blake’s point about quality, the one good story having more weight.
Does anyone else (I do) just break the year into “I am writing now” months and then “My practical side is going to send a few things out” months?
Also, no one has mentioned contests, but maybe that is another post.
Blake (and others in your position), do you think you might submit less once you have a few books under your belt?
I think i would (if ever–fingers crossed–in that position). Like I know years ago Ander Monson subitted a lot to various mags. Not speaking for him, but I do know him well, and I’m not sure he sees the point as much now (though he is gracious when I have asked him for something [Cella’s Round Trip, etc.])
Also: What Blake said.
there is no one universal journal that is worth submitting to. it should depend on your sensibility.
there is no one universal journal that is worth submitting to. it should depend on your sensibility.
I don’t think anyone is talking about some kind of universal “worth” of a literary magazine, but instead talking about submitting to journals that you yourself really want to be in and submitting pieces that you really think are good instead of submitting everything everywhere with the attitude that any publication, even a journal you don’t like, is good.
I don’t think anyone is talking about some kind of universal “worth” of a literary magazine, but instead talking about submitting to journals that you yourself really want to be in and submitting pieces that you really think are good instead of submitting everything everywhere with the attitude that any publication, even a journal you don’t like, is good.
Exactly. There are maybe a half-dozen magazines I haven’t been in that I’d still like to crack, and a similar half-dozen I have been in where I’d like to be again. Beyond those, I’m just not that interested. And my list is going to be completely different from someone else’s list.
Exactly. There are maybe a half-dozen magazines I haven’t been in that I’d still like to crack, and a similar half-dozen I have been in where I’d like to be again. Beyond those, I’m just not that interested. And my list is going to be completely different from someone else’s list.
i misunderstood then. i thought he meant like one journal that its worth it for everyone to submit to.
i misunderstood then. i thought he meant like one journal that its worth it for everyone to submit to.
Howie might be saying that, but I meant that this wasn’t what Justin (or people agreeing with his post) were saying.
Howie might be saying that, but I meant that this wasn’t what Justin (or people agreeing with his post) were saying.
he is a genius. for the uninitiated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o0AYFRFX7g – braxton plays coltrane!
he is a genius. for the uninitiated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o0AYFRFX7g – braxton plays coltrane!
“i guess the point is: you can tell when someone has put the time in, and when they haven’t. for some people, that time pours. for others, they are forcing. it all starts with where the writing comes from.”
That, for me, is the key, I think.
“i guess the point is: you can tell when someone has put the time in, and when they haven’t. for some people, that time pours. for others, they are forcing. it all starts with where the writing comes from.”
That, for me, is the key, I think.
why would a flash or poet have more work published than any other writer?
i am trying to figure out your connotation here i guess.
why would a flash or poet have more work published than any other writer?
i am trying to figure out your connotation here i guess.
I studied drama, too, and yep–I remember that double standard. “School X meant everything–Teacher Y was the difference between success and failure!” vs. “Experience is everything! Stop learning and get out there and DO!” :)
I studied drama, too, and yep–I remember that double standard. “School X meant everything–Teacher Y was the difference between success and failure!” vs. “Experience is everything! Stop learning and get out there and DO!” :)
my sense of the argument was that it rested on a presumed hierarchy of journals — why else refer to some journals as “shitty”? i personally avoid submitting to certain journals because i don’t want my stuff to be associated with the stuff they publish. elitist? fuck, yeah.
my sense of the argument was that it rested on a presumed hierarchy of journals — why else refer to some journals as “shitty”? i personally avoid submitting to certain journals because i don’t want my stuff to be associated with the stuff they publish. elitist? fuck, yeah.
I think because flash writers and poets have more pieces to send out than a short story writer or a novelist…
I think because flash writers and poets have more pieces to send out than a short story writer or a novelist…
I think there are indeed a people who submit to journals they themselves don’t have a high opinion of under the idea that any publication is a good publication.
Quicker to write a poem than it is to write a novel?
I think there are indeed a people who submit to journals they themselves don’t have a high opinion of under the idea that any publication is a good publication.
Quicker to write a poem than it is to write a novel?
that is an assumption.
that is also an assumption.
that is an assumption.
that is also an assumption.
yeah, it’s all about the audience you think will connect w/ your work. if that’s unknown, then you explore multi venues and find out, no?
an assumption that is true 99% of the time
yeah, it’s all about the audience you think will connect w/ your work. if that’s unknown, then you explore multi venues and find out, no?
an assumption that is true 99% of the time
What Catherine said.
I am speaking from personal experience. I used to write short stories exclusively. I am now very much into flash. The fact is I simply have more “completed’ (big quotes) work to send, if I so desire.
I’m just saying–in a formula where quality will maintain the same–the poet and flash writer have more individual pieces.
Having said that, writing a solid poem is the hardest thing to do, I feel. I can write a shitty one anytime, though…groan.
What Catherine said.
I am speaking from personal experience. I used to write short stories exclusively. I am now very much into flash. The fact is I simply have more “completed’ (big quotes) work to send, if I so desire.
I’m just saying–in a formula where quality will maintain the same–the poet and flash writer have more individual pieces.
Having said that, writing a solid poem is the hardest thing to do, I feel. I can write a shitty one anytime, though…groan.
more venues, esp. online, for shorter than longer work?
I’ve never posted anything here, though I read this site everyday. This, however, was something that had been on my mind for a while and will for the rest of my writing career. I think it was very well put. I wonder what we’re talking about here when we bring up “elitism.” Different writers have different goals, I suppose. Does one want to sign a 3-book deal with Norton? Or does one want to release a few heart-grinding books on FC2, Gray Wolf, or Coffee House? Or maybe a book deal isn’t the ultimate goal at all? Is there some success that lies in between these?
A rule to which I’ve always tried to adhere was that I should never submit to a journal that I had not read before and admired. When I see writers submitting to so many journals, I wonder if these writers have actually taken the time to fully read these journals or if they’ve maybe only glanced at a piece of two that had been linked from one site to another to another. Does being a fully-informed reader figure into this discussion, or is that too tangential?
Also, I try to submit as carefully as possible to specific journals after many revisions, and while I’m not a writer with many great successes who can probably “afford” to do this, I feel that the editors of these journals respond to me with a respect due for someone who has taken a certain amount of patience with her story/poem/essay.
And I am really wondering about writers like Ander Monson and Brian Evenson right now after Monson was mentioned. I have such a great respect for both, who have submitted to many journals in their early careers, I think. But I do wonder how they would view this practice for other writers or themselves now.
more venues, esp. online, for shorter than longer work?
I’ve never posted anything here, though I read this site everyday. This, however, was something that had been on my mind for a while and will for the rest of my writing career. I think it was very well put. I wonder what we’re talking about here when we bring up “elitism.” Different writers have different goals, I suppose. Does one want to sign a 3-book deal with Norton? Or does one want to release a few heart-grinding books on FC2, Gray Wolf, or Coffee House? Or maybe a book deal isn’t the ultimate goal at all? Is there some success that lies in between these?
A rule to which I’ve always tried to adhere was that I should never submit to a journal that I had not read before and admired. When I see writers submitting to so many journals, I wonder if these writers have actually taken the time to fully read these journals or if they’ve maybe only glanced at a piece of two that had been linked from one site to another to another. Does being a fully-informed reader figure into this discussion, or is that too tangential?
Also, I try to submit as carefully as possible to specific journals after many revisions, and while I’m not a writer with many great successes who can probably “afford” to do this, I feel that the editors of these journals respond to me with a respect due for someone who has taken a certain amount of patience with her story/poem/essay.
And I am really wondering about writers like Ander Monson and Brian Evenson right now after Monson was mentioned. I have such a great respect for both, who have submitted to many journals in their early careers, I think. But I do wonder how they would view this practice for other writers or themselves now.
Good point. In this debate, as in so many others, it’s a question of how long is a piece of string. I, for one, am glad that there aren’t six or seven ‘universal’ journals that everyone thinks they simply *have* to be in, because if there were that would be the end of any variety. Everyone’s list of journals they really want to be in is different, depending on their likes/dislikes, and that’s how it should be.
Good point. In this debate, as in so many others, it’s a question of how long is a piece of string. I, for one, am glad that there aren’t six or seven ‘universal’ journals that everyone thinks they simply *have* to be in, because if there were that would be the end of any variety. Everyone’s list of journals they really want to be in is different, depending on their likes/dislikes, and that’s how it should be.
do you really believe in your formula?
do you really believe in your formula?
At this stage in my writing it simply boils down to: Am I proud to have such piece out? Do I want my name associated with such journal? For me, more is no longer better.
do you honestly disagree that, for most writers, someone who writes exclusively poems or flash pieces will produce more completed pieces in a year than someone who writes exclusively novels or long short stories?
At this stage in my writing it simply boils down to: Am I proud to have such piece out? Do I want my name associated with such journal? For me, more is no longer better.
do you honestly disagree that, for most writers, someone who writes exclusively poems or flash pieces will produce more completed pieces in a year than someone who writes exclusively novels or long short stories?
Definitely Dave, what you say about it not being judgmental to follow certain paths. I’ll also add that I am not saying that judgment is inappropriate in this discussion but that we should at least be including an awareness that part of what we’re talking about here is judgment and not just wisdom.
Definitely Dave, what you say about it not being judgmental to follow certain paths. I’ll also add that I am not saying that judgment is inappropriate in this discussion but that we should at least be including an awareness that part of what we’re talking about here is judgment and not just wisdom.
That’s the key point, I think. I mean, we all have different taste, and a magazine I love may be “shitty” to others. But I would never submit to a magazine that I thought was shitty, because why would I want my work associated with it? I submit a lot, I think, but only to magazines I like and would love to see my work in.
That’s the key point, I think. I mean, we all have different taste, and a magazine I love may be “shitty” to others. But I would never submit to a magazine that I thought was shitty, because why would I want my work associated with it? I submit a lot, I think, but only to magazines I like and would love to see my work in.
oh man, i probably shouldn’t comment… but have to admit: had a hard time getting through this post….
let’s say you’re a new writer, still learning, and you manage to place a decent number of stories in newish print or online publications. what does it ‘mean’ to be published, in this case? it means what it means — that there are editors who like the work, who invest in the process of publishing it. is there a problem here?
If I have four stories in new netmags whose names and editors you’re not familiar with, do you have to read them? Does my having four stories in these places somehow devalue the whole idea of ‘publication’ for you?
Maybe Justin has a point in regard to the speed of things lately–how quickly some writers will now send stuff off after drafting. Is the problem overall quality, though? Because again — nobody’s forced to read anything. If there’s a problem, it would be from the writer’s point of view, right? The writer might wish s/he had been more careful…. Okay…. But if we’re concerned on behalf of writers here, I’m pretty sure that most of them don’t miss the old ‘slower’ model. Just to point out a little of the obvious here: when New York and the universities owned publishing, it was more exclusive, and for that reason more elitist/dependent on identity.
Unless you’re a highly credentialed writer who for some reason is interested in limiting readers’ choices, I’m not sure why you’d be interested in going back to that deal…..
Again I’m assuming that Justin isn’t upset about the overall ‘quality’ level dropping, that he’s concerned about writers. But if he is concerned about quality, I’m not sure that old-school contracted novel-writing ever did much better. Yeah, it takes LONGER to write a novel than a story…. But what’s that to say…..
i don’t know most writers. i don’t hang out with writers. i have no clue.
this is why i asked.
personally, i think flash or poetry can take just as long or longer than a novel.
it depends on the writer.
i often look to philosophy when i try to get my head around how a simple sentence can change a person’s viewpoint and that leads to my pondering the time needed for the author to realize that sentence.
and that author is not worrying so much about prose much of the time.
oh man, i probably shouldn’t comment… but have to admit: had a hard time getting through this post….
let’s say you’re a new writer, still learning, and you manage to place a decent number of stories in newish print or online publications. what does it ‘mean’ to be published, in this case? it means what it means — that there are editors who like the work, who invest in the process of publishing it. is there a problem here?
If I have four stories in new netmags whose names and editors you’re not familiar with, do you have to read them? Does my having four stories in these places somehow devalue the whole idea of ‘publication’ for you?
Maybe Justin has a point in regard to the speed of things lately–how quickly some writers will now send stuff off after drafting. Is the problem overall quality, though? Because again — nobody’s forced to read anything. If there’s a problem, it would be from the writer’s point of view, right? The writer might wish s/he had been more careful…. Okay…. But if we’re concerned on behalf of writers here, I’m pretty sure that most of them don’t miss the old ‘slower’ model. Just to point out a little of the obvious here: when New York and the universities owned publishing, it was more exclusive, and for that reason more elitist/dependent on identity.
Unless you’re a highly credentialed writer who for some reason is interested in limiting readers’ choices, I’m not sure why you’d be interested in going back to that deal…..
Again I’m assuming that Justin isn’t upset about the overall ‘quality’ level dropping, that he’s concerned about writers. But if he is concerned about quality, I’m not sure that old-school contracted novel-writing ever did much better. Yeah, it takes LONGER to write a novel than a story…. But what’s that to say…..
i don’t know most writers. i don’t hang out with writers. i have no clue.
this is why i asked.
personally, i think flash or poetry can take just as long or longer than a novel.
it depends on the writer.
i often look to philosophy when i try to get my head around how a simple sentence can change a person’s viewpoint and that leads to my pondering the time needed for the author to realize that sentence.
and that author is not worrying so much about prose much of the time.
Definitely not synonymous. To be honest, that’s how I discovered you, and Matt Bell, and B.J. Hollars, and Blake, and Molly Gaudry, and Cami Park and a whole bunch of other writers whose work I really, really love. I’ll see certain names in lots of journals or mags, and I start to remember, “Oh, yeah, that’s so-and-so, I really like her style of writing, I bet I’ll like her story or poem in this mag.” And so it’s sort of ended up that a lot of my favorite writers are pretty prolific.
Which is maybe not good. And it’s not universal. But it’s just a fact.
Definitely not synonymous. To be honest, that’s how I discovered you, and Matt Bell, and B.J. Hollars, and Blake, and Molly Gaudry, and Cami Park and a whole bunch of other writers whose work I really, really love. I’ll see certain names in lots of journals or mags, and I start to remember, “Oh, yeah, that’s so-and-so, I really like her style of writing, I bet I’ll like her story or poem in this mag.” And so it’s sort of ended up that a lot of my favorite writers are pretty prolific.
Which is maybe not good. And it’s not universal. But it’s just a fact.
It is certainly possible that some novelist could write three novels in a year and at the same time some poet could struggle to even complete one poem all year… but in general, I think it is a pretty safe assumption that poets and flash writers have more pieces to submit than novelists or long form story writers.
It is certainly possible that some novelist could write three novels in a year and at the same time some poet could struggle to even complete one poem all year… but in general, I think it is a pretty safe assumption that poets and flash writers have more pieces to submit than novelists or long form story writers.
yes lincoln, i agree, which brings us back to the topic of “quality”.
quality is a variable in this equation.
and thus why i asked.
yes lincoln, i agree, which brings us back to the topic of “quality”.
quality is a variable in this equation.
and thus why i asked.
Well as you and any regular readers of this site know, I am fairly judgmental, and seldom afraid to share my judgments. But in this particular case I specifically held off on naming any journals or websites, because I don’t want to create the impression that I’m saying any given publication is better than any other. I have my own standards, of course, but they’re my own. If you don’t believe me, you can ask our own Gene Morgan how many times he’s had to reject me from Bear Parade. I just think the layout of that site is so beautiful, and all I want is to be on it–but I’ve never managed to show him work that he thought fit the aesthetic. Oh well. Anyway, when I speak generally about “shitty journals” it is in the specific context of the practice I have referred to as “targeting,” wherein a writer looking to wrack up publication credits chooses to submit work to a place that s/he does not respect or admire, simply because the odds of getting accepted look good. So the judgment of “shittiness” is relative to the given writer’s own individual standards. Readers will have to decide for themselves whether they have ever or would ever have engaged in this kind of behavior. If you’re curious for a personal example, the only one worth sharing has already been shared in the older post linked to at the top of my essay.
Well as you and any regular readers of this site know, I am fairly judgmental, and seldom afraid to share my judgments. But in this particular case I specifically held off on naming any journals or websites, because I don’t want to create the impression that I’m saying any given publication is better than any other. I have my own standards, of course, but they’re my own. If you don’t believe me, you can ask our own Gene Morgan how many times he’s had to reject me from Bear Parade. I just think the layout of that site is so beautiful, and all I want is to be on it–but I’ve never managed to show him work that he thought fit the aesthetic. Oh well. Anyway, when I speak generally about “shitty journals” it is in the specific context of the practice I have referred to as “targeting,” wherein a writer looking to wrack up publication credits chooses to submit work to a place that s/he does not respect or admire, simply because the odds of getting accepted look good. So the judgment of “shittiness” is relative to the given writer’s own individual standards. Readers will have to decide for themselves whether they have ever or would ever have engaged in this kind of behavior. If you’re curious for a personal example, the only one worth sharing has already been shared in the older post linked to at the top of my essay.
i can remember when snail mail was the only way to submit. waiting for a reply was exquisite torture. the mailman became the most important person in your life. who wants to go back to that?
i can remember when snail mail was the only way to submit. waiting for a reply was exquisite torture. the mailman became the most important person in your life. who wants to go back to that?
Anything I am to be paid for, I submit my best. And that’s a particular distinction, isn’t it? Being paid. Rewarded in recognizable fashion = work and compensation.
Look. If I am a publisher, and I publish some writing, and I don’t pay in money, then the “reward” is simply “being published”. If I pay in money, then the compensation for a writer’s work is money rather than the publishing. The publishing will, hopefully, bring in money to me as a publisher.
If I am a writer sending out “work” and not being compensated, then is this truly “work”? Granted being “published” may be compensation, but that is not the only compensation. Dr. Hunter S. Thompson was asked, when irritated with the policies at Rolling Stone, if he couldn’t just write for someone else. Sure, Dr. Thompson said. I could write for a million places. I wouldn’t get paid for it, but I could write for a million places.
And that’s the rub, isn’t it? If I expect to be paid for my work, I send out my best.
– –
Okay,
Father Luke
Anything I am to be paid for, I submit my best. And that’s a particular distinction, isn’t it? Being paid. Rewarded in recognizable fashion = work and compensation.
Look. If I am a publisher, and I publish some writing, and I don’t pay in money, then the “reward” is simply “being published”. If I pay in money, then the compensation for a writer’s work is money rather than the publishing. The publishing will, hopefully, bring in money to me as a publisher.
If I am a writer sending out “work” and not being compensated, then is this truly “work”? Granted being “published” may be compensation, but that is not the only compensation. Dr. Hunter S. Thompson was asked, when irritated with the policies at Rolling Stone, if he couldn’t just write for someone else. Sure, Dr. Thompson said. I could write for a million places. I wouldn’t get paid for it, but I could write for a million places.
And that’s the rub, isn’t it? If I expect to be paid for my work, I send out my best.
– –
Okay,
Father Luke
speaking realistically (and about online journals), if i ever make it onto the collagist or necessary fiction, i am going to crap my pants.
speaking realistically (and about online journals), if i ever make it onto the collagist or necessary fiction, i am going to crap my pants.
I like email submissions since they save trees, but I’m not sure responses are any quicker these days. In fact they seem slower!
I like email submissions since they save trees, but I’m not sure responses are any quicker these days. In fact they seem slower!
how about abjective?
how about abjective?
Seems to me that in the literary world, unless you are publishing in the top 15 markets or something, the payment is pretty minimal and the main reward is still the publication, not the cheese.
Seems to me that in the literary world, unless you are publishing in the top 15 markets or something, the payment is pretty minimal and the main reward is still the publication, not the cheese.
marxist.
marxist.
or is it capitalist?
or is it capitalist?
i def like abjective a lot; but, like elimae, i think darby publishes a very particular kind of writing with a particular feeling and aesthetic. don’t get me wrong, i think that’s cool and all, but i doubt that i’ll ever write something like what either of them do – it’s just not something i can do, i don’t think – i guess if i do i’ll send it. but the collagist and necessary fiction don’t have a narrow aesthetic, they’re just solid as shining diamonds.
i def like abjective a lot; but, like elimae, i think darby publishes a very particular kind of writing with a particular feeling and aesthetic. don’t get me wrong, i think that’s cool and all, but i doubt that i’ll ever write something like what either of them do – it’s just not something i can do, i don’t think – i guess if i do i’ll send it. but the collagist and necessary fiction don’t have a narrow aesthetic, they’re just solid as shining diamonds.
it’s absurd is what it is.
sharpening my toenails.
it’s absurd is what it is.
sharpening my toenails.
i got a check in the mail last week for 3 bucks for a poem. my best work? probably not. geezus, i am a whore!
Most of the answers here have to do with the volume the writer has created. I’d rather think of it in terms of the volume one can hold in one’s hands. To fill a book one can hold in one’s hands, a novelist has to turn out a novel; a poet or flash writer has to turn out dozens of pieces.
i got a check in the mail last week for 3 bucks for a poem. my best work? probably not. geezus, i am a whore!
Most of the answers here have to do with the volume the writer has created. I’d rather think of it in terms of the volume one can hold in one’s hands. To fill a book one can hold in one’s hands, a novelist has to turn out a novel; a poet or flash writer has to turn out dozens of pieces.
I’ll admit to having subbed to places I didn’t think much of back when I was stridently trying to pile up credits. And how many writers do we know who submit based on “tiers,” subbing to their highest tiers first, and gradually climbing down the ladder til they find homes?
I’ll admit to having subbed to places I didn’t think much of back when I was stridently trying to pile up credits. And how many writers do we know who submit based on “tiers,” subbing to their highest tiers first, and gradually climbing down the ladder til they find homes?
Yup. I’ve made about forty times more money from speaking about writing than I have from the publications themselves.
Yup. I’ve made about forty times more money from speaking about writing than I have from the publications themselves.
Uh, people, “payment” is not always immediate money. A writer might publish 100 pieces of poetry and earn 40 bucks (if lucky). But then that writer has established a voice or take or expertise–and as Dave above notes–have many ancillary methods of getting “paid.”
Example: As a prof I have to publish (talked about this earlier). OK, Sean, you published blah-blah this year, so here’s your raise and merit pay, blah.
There are echoes of publication you might not hear until years later.
Anyway, most mags do pay with issues/subscriptions of the magazine. If you wanted to be in the magazine, you wanted to read it, right?
I am thinking of a writer I know right now who sells few of her books. BUT she does a lot of readings and speeches and contest judging–and gets paid pretty big.
So, if money if your dealio, the lit mags might “pay” down the road.
Uh, people, “payment” is not always immediate money. A writer might publish 100 pieces of poetry and earn 40 bucks (if lucky). But then that writer has established a voice or take or expertise–and as Dave above notes–have many ancillary methods of getting “paid.”
Example: As a prof I have to publish (talked about this earlier). OK, Sean, you published blah-blah this year, so here’s your raise and merit pay, blah.
There are echoes of publication you might not hear until years later.
Anyway, most mags do pay with issues/subscriptions of the magazine. If you wanted to be in the magazine, you wanted to read it, right?
I am thinking of a writer I know right now who sells few of her books. BUT she does a lot of readings and speeches and contest judging–and gets paid pretty big.
So, if money if your dealio, the lit mags might “pay” down the road.
Father Luke your definition of work is wacky. That too, I forgot to say.
Father Luke your definition of work is wacky. That too, I forgot to say.
which is not to say i haven’t submitted to both, but i’ve come to accept how ill-suited my writing is for either abjective or elimae.
which is not to say i haven’t submitted to both, but i’ve come to accept how ill-suited my writing is for either abjective or elimae.
A fair question, Amber.
First of all, what makes a writer “established?” When Junot Diaz won the Pulitzer Prize I remember a lot of people on this site decrying him as old-guard, and saying it was a boring choice. I was appalled. Dude is under 40, and spent 11 years on a debut novel– even with the PPrize under his belt, I’m not convinced he’s entirely established. Pretty much there, gonna get there, but jeez–give the guy a minute to let some dust collect on his trophy. You know what I mean?
I’ve got to be honest with you- I don’t think of myself as an “established” writer. I’ve done some projects I’m proud of, I’m very excited to have my first book coming out, and hopefully it will do well, but 2010 will not be the year I get inducted into the American Academy of Arts & Letters, if you know what I mean. To me, “establishment” indicates not just arrival at a certain level of success, but permanent citizenship there. And I’m not saying this to play punker-than-thou with anyone. I’d be grateful for more stability, recognition, and God help me, income. All I’m saying is that I don’t see myself as having arrived at that place, much less settled there. In fact I’ll promise you something, the day–if it ever comes–that I in all honesty feel “established” as a writer, I will announce it on this blog. Which will probably incite the Powers that Be and cost me my spot at the Top of the Conspiracy, but hey, a promise is a promise.
Now, with regard to your other point, which is also an excellent and fair one, about whether I think I would be where I am–wherever that is, and I admit it’s a decent place; I’m not complaining–without the flotilla of publication credits amassed during a period of frenzied submissions, the answer is yes. My editor at Harper Perennial did not give a rat’s ass that I had a short-short in 5_trope or in Forklift, Ohio. And I cite those journals by name because those are journals I respect massively, where publication in them and the chance to work with those editors was a reward in and of itself, and where I am still proud of the work I sent them.
As it happened, the piece that was in 5_t made it into the collection, the piece from Forklift, Ohio did not. Because of the way I decided to organize the collection, almost none of my flash-fiction was included, so in terms of the life of this book that exists right now, all that stuff might as well have not happened. That doesn’t mean I regret it–I’m thrilled I got to be in Gigantic #1, and The Brooklyn Rail. But there are other places I do wish I could unleash the old Flux Capacitor on (or at leas the Eternal Sunshine treatment) and my point in writing this post was to suggest that people try and tackle these questions *before* rather than *after* the fact.
The one exception to what I’ve just written is this blog itself. I know for a fact that Harper Perennial digs the hell out of HTMLGiant, as does anyone who looks at the banner ad up top. They like what we’re doing here, and they like us, so no doubt that was a help, in selling me to the HarperCollins marketing department, if not to the editor himself, who already liked me. But you can’t plan for, count on, or anticipate the kind of success that HTMLGiant has enjoyed, and hopefully will continue to enjoy. Which brings me back around to my original point to you–is Giant “established”? According to a recent comment thread on Big Other, we’re practically in the AARP. But to me, we’re barely a year old, and every day is something we’ve never encountered before–like the all-out brawl poor Chelsea Martin accidentally triggered, or Amy McDaniel’s DFW-grammar posts, which have seen 30,000+ views apiece and are the all-time most popular posts to date on the site by a factor of 10.
My point is that all these judgments are relative. To Harper Collins, for example, we are new, exciting, unpredictable, young–a promising investment, maybe (we hope!), but by no means a sure shot. If they thought we were established in the sense that you mean, why, I bet they wouldn’t want anything to do with us!
My thank to @cafenirvana for pointing me to this fascinating post. I wholeheartedly concur – and disagree equally strongly. I concur that a writer should only submit work of which s/he is truly proud IF (and it’s true in my case but not in many others’ and I’ll concede that to them) they are seeking to create a legacy of artistic merit. If they simply want a paycheque, then submit where will have you.
I think I disagree that the scattergun volume-submission is characteristic of indie-lit. I think that’s based on a misunderstanding. Many of us, like Jesus Angel, whom I have the pleasure of knowing online, give much of our work away for free in order to introduce it to the world, and begin to build a readership. I think there are lots of people who still can’t quite understand that this doesn’t imply a diminuation of quality. Well, it doesn’t. Indie lit fic writers have often gone outside the mainstream BECAUSE they are sick of the mainstream’s editorial stringencies. They will publish their work in indie journals that pay little if anything – often this is because more mainstream journals want mainstream credentials – but that doesn’t equate to quality. Many of the indie writers I know, like Jesus, do not submit to the “big” journals because we want our work to be better than what is on show there, not because we don’t care about quality.It’s just we define better differenty.
At Year Zero, we publish new fiction every day – I would defy anyone to say our latest “best of” anthology Thirteen Shadows Waiting for Sunrise isn’t as good as anything Granta can offer. Not Granta sensibilities, for sure – but that’s the point. we set our targets differently – but once we’ve set them we will make our workthe best we can.
A fair question, Amber.
First of all, what makes a writer “established?” When Junot Diaz won the Pulitzer Prize I remember a lot of people on this site decrying him as old-guard, and saying it was a boring choice. I was appalled. Dude is under 40, and spent 11 years on a debut novel– even with the PPrize under his belt, I’m not convinced he’s entirely established. Pretty much there, gonna get there, but jeez–give the guy a minute to let some dust collect on his trophy. You know what I mean?
I’ve got to be honest with you- I don’t think of myself as an “established” writer. I’ve done some projects I’m proud of, I’m very excited to have my first book coming out, and hopefully it will do well, but 2010 will not be the year I get inducted into the American Academy of Arts & Letters, if you know what I mean. To me, “establishment” indicates not just arrival at a certain level of success, but permanent citizenship there. And I’m not saying this to play punker-than-thou with anyone. I’d be grateful for more stability, recognition, and God help me, income. All I’m saying is that I don’t see myself as having arrived at that place, much less settled there. In fact I’ll promise you something, the day–if it ever comes–that I in all honesty feel “established” as a writer, I will announce it on this blog. Which will probably incite the Powers that Be and cost me my spot at the Top of the Conspiracy, but hey, a promise is a promise.
Now, with regard to your other point, which is also an excellent and fair one, about whether I think I would be where I am–wherever that is, and I admit it’s a decent place; I’m not complaining–without the flotilla of publication credits amassed during a period of frenzied submissions, the answer is yes. My editor at Harper Perennial did not give a rat’s ass that I had a short-short in 5_trope or in Forklift, Ohio. And I cite those journals by name because those are journals I respect massively, where publication in them and the chance to work with those editors was a reward in and of itself, and where I am still proud of the work I sent them.
As it happened, the piece that was in 5_t made it into the collection, the piece from Forklift, Ohio did not. Because of the way I decided to organize the collection, almost none of my flash-fiction was included, so in terms of the life of this book that exists right now, all that stuff might as well have not happened. That doesn’t mean I regret it–I’m thrilled I got to be in Gigantic #1, and The Brooklyn Rail. But there are other places I do wish I could unleash the old Flux Capacitor on (or at leas the Eternal Sunshine treatment) and my point in writing this post was to suggest that people try and tackle these questions *before* rather than *after* the fact.
The one exception to what I’ve just written is this blog itself. I know for a fact that Harper Perennial digs the hell out of HTMLGiant, as does anyone who looks at the banner ad up top. They like what we’re doing here, and they like us, so no doubt that was a help, in selling me to the HarperCollins marketing department, if not to the editor himself, who already liked me. But you can’t plan for, count on, or anticipate the kind of success that HTMLGiant has enjoyed, and hopefully will continue to enjoy. Which brings me back around to my original point to you–is Giant “established”? According to a recent comment thread on Big Other, we’re practically in the AARP. But to me, we’re barely a year old, and every day is something we’ve never encountered before–like the all-out brawl poor Chelsea Martin accidentally triggered, or Amy McDaniel’s DFW-grammar posts, which have seen 30,000+ views apiece and are the all-time most popular posts to date on the site by a factor of 10.
My point is that all these judgments are relative. To Harper Collins, for example, we are new, exciting, unpredictable, young–a promising investment, maybe (we hope!), but by no means a sure shot. If they thought we were established in the sense that you mean, why, I bet they wouldn’t want anything to do with us!
My thank to @cafenirvana for pointing me to this fascinating post. I wholeheartedly concur – and disagree equally strongly. I concur that a writer should only submit work of which s/he is truly proud IF (and it’s true in my case but not in many others’ and I’ll concede that to them) they are seeking to create a legacy of artistic merit. If they simply want a paycheque, then submit where will have you.
I think I disagree that the scattergun volume-submission is characteristic of indie-lit. I think that’s based on a misunderstanding. Many of us, like Jesus Angel, whom I have the pleasure of knowing online, give much of our work away for free in order to introduce it to the world, and begin to build a readership. I think there are lots of people who still can’t quite understand that this doesn’t imply a diminuation of quality. Well, it doesn’t. Indie lit fic writers have often gone outside the mainstream BECAUSE they are sick of the mainstream’s editorial stringencies. They will publish their work in indie journals that pay little if anything – often this is because more mainstream journals want mainstream credentials – but that doesn’t equate to quality. Many of the indie writers I know, like Jesus, do not submit to the “big” journals because we want our work to be better than what is on show there, not because we don’t care about quality.It’s just we define better differenty.
At Year Zero, we publish new fiction every day – I would defy anyone to say our latest “best of” anthology Thirteen Shadows Waiting for Sunrise isn’t as good as anything Granta can offer. Not Granta sensibilities, for sure – but that’s the point. we set our targets differently – but once we’ve set them we will make our workthe best we can.
marxist, right? human interaction (lit “work” in this case) = monetary exchange?
marxist, right? human interaction (lit “work” in this case) = monetary exchange?
or capitalist… “Work is only work — and only matters — if you make money from it.”
to everyone- thanks x 1000 for all the comments. I’m about halfway through reading the thread here at the Palm Beach Airport, but my plane is gonna board in a few minutes, so I’m never going to get through it all, especially after the speech I just gave Amber up above (sorry Amber! but thanks for the questions). Anyway, I’m really excited to read the rest of this, and whatever else comes in while I’m in the sky. Catch ya’ll on the flipside. And thanks again.
or capitalist… “Work is only work — and only matters — if you make money from it.”
to everyone- thanks x 1000 for all the comments. I’m about halfway through reading the thread here at the Palm Beach Airport, but my plane is gonna board in a few minutes, so I’m never going to get through it all, especially after the speech I just gave Amber up above (sorry Amber! but thanks for the questions). Anyway, I’m really excited to read the rest of this, and whatever else comes in while I’m in the sky. Catch ya’ll on the flipside. And thanks again.
to be fair, I don’t think anyone here is a representative of the “mainstream.”
This is an excellent discussion, and has everything to do with my recent musings. Thanks for pointing me here Jesus! :)
The discussion of quality vs. quantity is much valid. I’m one of these young writers, so I can’t talk much by personal experience, but only by what I’ve read and researched about, and people I’ve talked to. For me it feels that there are roughly two kinds of writers on the market (somehow published, that is):
1) the ones who are patient, read and respect guidelines, make previous research, build platforms, honey their writing techniques and polish their work before submitting any piece; and when they do, they “go for the top”;
2) the ones who want to be published, period. They want their names written in paper/screen after the pretty word “by”, and they want it now. Or they want their royalties check sooner than later; or and won’t share their earnings with traditional publishing companies, as they feel they are being somehow exploited, or undervalued. Or even, they think their geniuses are not being dutifully recognized. Or they think quantity is all (or most) that matters to be considered a “respectable published author”.
I may be assuming too much here, but it feels that the group 1 would take better care before submitting, and would choose quality over quantity; and group 2 would generally choose the other way around. And from what I read of agents and editors, group 1 is much, much larger in number than group 2. But it doesn’t mean that people from group 1 will not produce good things. I’m trying to be objective here, not judgmental. (Please tell me if you feel otherwise, and why.)
Now, I’m reasoning this way considering *today’s* publishing environment, which is certainly different from the market of a few years ago, probably when many of you mentioned having submitted work more widely that would do today.
But you know? It all comes down to one point (I think): the writer’s personality. Which is better? I believe it’s the approach that matches your personal need in a given moment. Will you regret it later? Maybe yes, maybe no; but there’s always the invaluable experience acquired precisely because of the choice you made. (as someone mentioned before)
One last comment: I believe that yes, there are shitty publications there, and shitty publishing companies too (not to mention the scammers); and I plan on staying the farther possible from these ones! heh
to be fair, I don’t think anyone here is a representative of the “mainstream.”
This is an excellent discussion, and has everything to do with my recent musings. Thanks for pointing me here Jesus! :)
The discussion of quality vs. quantity is much valid. I’m one of these young writers, so I can’t talk much by personal experience, but only by what I’ve read and researched about, and people I’ve talked to. For me it feels that there are roughly two kinds of writers on the market (somehow published, that is):
1) the ones who are patient, read and respect guidelines, make previous research, build platforms, honey their writing techniques and polish their work before submitting any piece; and when they do, they “go for the top”;
2) the ones who want to be published, period. They want their names written in paper/screen after the pretty word “by”, and they want it now. Or they want their royalties check sooner than later; or and won’t share their earnings with traditional publishing companies, as they feel they are being somehow exploited, or undervalued. Or even, they think their geniuses are not being dutifully recognized. Or they think quantity is all (or most) that matters to be considered a “respectable published author”.
I may be assuming too much here, but it feels that the group 1 would take better care before submitting, and would choose quality over quantity; and group 2 would generally choose the other way around. And from what I read of agents and editors, group 1 is much, much larger in number than group 2. But it doesn’t mean that people from group 1 will not produce good things. I’m trying to be objective here, not judgmental. (Please tell me if you feel otherwise, and why.)
Now, I’m reasoning this way considering *today’s* publishing environment, which is certainly different from the market of a few years ago, probably when many of you mentioned having submitted work more widely that would do today.
But you know? It all comes down to one point (I think): the writer’s personality. Which is better? I believe it’s the approach that matches your personal need in a given moment. Will you regret it later? Maybe yes, maybe no; but there’s always the invaluable experience acquired precisely because of the choice you made. (as someone mentioned before)
One last comment: I believe that yes, there are shitty publications there, and shitty publishing companies too (not to mention the scammers); and I plan on staying the farther possible from these ones! heh
i agree with clapper above as to submitting poems with an eventual book in mind. while i have published chapbooks of only eight or 10 poems, i also have published a poetry book of 140 pages. submitting my stuff for editorial scrutiny a piece or a few pieces at a time is one way i test the quality of the work — whether i can include it in a projected volume.
i agree with clapper above as to submitting poems with an eventual book in mind. while i have published chapbooks of only eight or 10 poems, i also have published a poetry book of 140 pages. submitting my stuff for editorial scrutiny a piece or a few pieces at a time is one way i test the quality of the work — whether i can include it in a projected volume.
hmmm. i like this concept a lot.
hmmm. i like this concept a lot.
Everything deserves to be read. People want to read everything of a particular writer. Look at “the collecteds” “the completes” — all of it sans the selecteds. When it is all said in done, (read: you’re dead, or damn near it), people want to read your complete works. So if we’re discussing “lit mags” and the like, then yes, not everything you write should be sent out. But everything you write should be read, deserves to be read. I understand you mean “not books”, but there are prolific authors. Are you putting prolific authors who don’t send out to the mags in the same boat? Does the author’s position change your mind —– ie, if the author doesn’t believe all he/she writes is gold and the end-all, but simply another output in a long never ending line of soulful spillage, and it will never stop, is this author on the same level as say, an author who spends a year to write one short story, or ten years to write one novel, or twenty years to write one novel, or thirty (you get me)?
Everything deserves to be read. People want to read everything of a particular writer. Look at “the collecteds” “the completes” — all of it sans the selecteds. When it is all said in done, (read: you’re dead, or damn near it), people want to read your complete works. So if we’re discussing “lit mags” and the like, then yes, not everything you write should be sent out. But everything you write should be read, deserves to be read. I understand you mean “not books”, but there are prolific authors. Are you putting prolific authors who don’t send out to the mags in the same boat? Does the author’s position change your mind —– ie, if the author doesn’t believe all he/she writes is gold and the end-all, but simply another output in a long never ending line of soulful spillage, and it will never stop, is this author on the same level as say, an author who spends a year to write one short story, or ten years to write one novel, or twenty years to write one novel, or thirty (you get me)?
By everything do you mean every scrap, every draft, every half-completed sketch, every thing the author wrote but then thought sucked and tried to destroy?
By everything do you mean every scrap, every draft, every half-completed sketch, every thing the author wrote but then thought sucked and tried to destroy?
Good to see you on here, Dan. (You too, Mariana!) But I feel like I should clarify a couple of points you made above, just so I’m speaking for myself.
Since “completing” my 3xbad novel, which is still in-process re: multimedia elements, I’ve been exploring community-/readership-building channels for just the past three months. What I’ve found is a publishing revolution’s kicking up a storm and I’m psyched to contribute to the culture jam on every level that makes sense.
To me, this means meeting fellow artists in social networks online and off, collaborating with said artists on all kinds of creative projects, reading and/or performing live, carving up the novel into shorts to farm out to lit mags (Tin House to ElectricLit to Barrelhouse to htmlgiant… just seeking amenable readers), exploring serial possibilities (chapbooks to lit sites), using music, photography and video to amplify 3xbad themes and reach wider audience, and so on.
In promising collaborative situations I’m happy to “give away” my work. I very much respect what you did w/ free e-day, Dan, as well as likeminded efforts by isReads, etc. Of course, I’m also looking forward to the day when 3xbad blows up — whatever that may mean (it’s not about mo-nay, Father… I joke with my homegrrrl that I’ll likely sell more “badbadbad” T-shirts and panties than books).
Am I committed to DIY/indie route? Absolutely. I’d love to get the green light from Dzanc or Featherproof or Revenge Ink, etc. And I’ll do what I have to do myself if that’s what I have to do to spread the 3xbad gospel. But would I turn down a legit offer from adventurous lit agents (Bill Clegg, Molly Glick…) or risk-taking big publishers (FSG, Norton, Harper Perennial)? Um, no. I’d welcome them because I know they’d only rep me if they were into my work — and that’s all I’m looking for: an audience that connects to the work. “Mainstream,” “alternative”… same difference. It’s the work and the connection that counts for me.
Isn’t that what “submission” is all about???… (at least for me, I’m a top)
Good to see you on here, Dan. (You too, Mariana!) But I feel like I should clarify a couple of points you made above, just so I’m speaking for myself.
Since “completing” my 3xbad novel, which is still in-process re: multimedia elements, I’ve been exploring community-/readership-building channels for just the past three months. What I’ve found is a publishing revolution’s kicking up a storm and I’m psyched to contribute to the culture jam on every level that makes sense.
To me, this means meeting fellow artists in social networks online and off, collaborating with said artists on all kinds of creative projects, reading and/or performing live, carving up the novel into shorts to farm out to lit mags (Tin House to ElectricLit to Barrelhouse to htmlgiant… just seeking amenable readers), exploring serial possibilities (chapbooks to lit sites), using music, photography and video to amplify 3xbad themes and reach wider audience, and so on.
In promising collaborative situations I’m happy to “give away” my work. I very much respect what you did w/ free e-day, Dan, as well as likeminded efforts by isReads, etc. Of course, I’m also looking forward to the day when 3xbad blows up — whatever that may mean (it’s not about mo-nay, Father… I joke with my homegrrrl that I’ll likely sell more “badbadbad” T-shirts and panties than books).
Am I committed to DIY/indie route? Absolutely. I’d love to get the green light from Dzanc or Featherproof or Revenge Ink, etc. And I’ll do what I have to do myself if that’s what I have to do to spread the 3xbad gospel. But would I turn down a legit offer from adventurous lit agents (Bill Clegg, Molly Glick…) or risk-taking big publishers (FSG, Norton, Harper Perennial)? Um, no. I’d welcome them because I know they’d only rep me if they were into my work — and that’s all I’m looking for: an audience that connects to the work. “Mainstream,” “alternative”… same difference. It’s the work and the connection that counts for me.
Isn’t that what “submission” is all about???… (at least for me, I’m a top)
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Justin. And I agree with pretty much all the points you make. (I don’t mean to say that lots of you guys are “established” in a stodgy way, more like in a people-know-who-you-are kind of way.) And you know, when I first started writing, I did get published in a couple of places that now make me cringe. I’m not too sorry about that, really, since it was a learning experience. I learned fast never to submit to any place where you knew your stomach would sink if you got accepted there. I blame that back section in Poets and Writers, and one of my writing professors, who told us to submit everywhere. Which I know may have been the point of your post–to just challenge this notion and provoke discussion as much as anything. Which you definitely have–I’ve really enjoyed reading the comments and perspectives on here.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Justin. And I agree with pretty much all the points you make. (I don’t mean to say that lots of you guys are “established” in a stodgy way, more like in a people-know-who-you-are kind of way.) And you know, when I first started writing, I did get published in a couple of places that now make me cringe. I’m not too sorry about that, really, since it was a learning experience. I learned fast never to submit to any place where you knew your stomach would sink if you got accepted there. I blame that back section in Poets and Writers, and one of my writing professors, who told us to submit everywhere. Which I know may have been the point of your post–to just challenge this notion and provoke discussion as much as anything. Which you definitely have–I’ve really enjoyed reading the comments and perspectives on here.
[…] light of Justin’s excellent post below, I started thinking about how I used to think about things. Early on I wrote a lot, and […]
Thanks for your response, Justin. You make a great point with the personal rubric re: shittiness you discuss here and I think we all have engaged in the behavior you note at one time or another. I just wanted to include a discussion of judgment as well as how some of the scrutiny that I think you’re calling for in the original post is generally borne from experience. This is not to say that judgment is a bad thing (it often isn’t) or that anyone here is Ye Olde Writer with a bunch of books under their belt, but that all things being relative, some of us have had more time to learn these valuable lessons than others. Great post, regardless. Lots of interesting discussion.
Thanks for your response, Justin. You make a great point with the personal rubric re: shittiness you discuss here and I think we all have engaged in the behavior you note at one time or another. I just wanted to include a discussion of judgment as well as how some of the scrutiny that I think you’re calling for in the original post is generally borne from experience. This is not to say that judgment is a bad thing (it often isn’t) or that anyone here is Ye Olde Writer with a bunch of books under their belt, but that all things being relative, some of us have had more time to learn these valuable lessons than others. Great post, regardless. Lots of interesting discussion.
I “published” my “work” on my website for the free and the fun of it for nearly five years. I have been approached by several publishers. I’m no longer willing to “publish” my “work” for the free and the fun of it on my website.
Look, all I’m saying is that I want my best foot forward in this dance. Consider that as wacky as you please. I’m still me.
– –
Okay,
Father Luke
I “published” my “work” on my website for the free and the fun of it for nearly five years. I have been approached by several publishers. I’m no longer willing to “publish” my “work” for the free and the fun of it on my website.
Look, all I’m saying is that I want my best foot forward in this dance. Consider that as wacky as you please. I’m still me.
– –
Okay,
Father Luke
I don’t believe Father Luke is a real person. If he is, I believe he exists only to provide a very meaningless commentary.
I don’t believe Father Luke is a real person. If he is, I believe he exists only to provide a very meaningless commentary.
http://FatherLuke.com
http://FatherLuke.com
how unfortunate
how unfortunate
I don’t know. Maybe? When you put it that way, it seems stupid. Then again, it seems to work for Sappho. And I believe there is only one more project that is a collection of fragments from the notebook of a popular (classic?) author within the last 100 years…. does this count? I mean, sometimes, even the scraps seem interesting, right? Sometimes we create an excellent line but never end up placing it…. what if that line is really devastating?
I don’t know. Maybe? When you put it that way, it seems stupid. Then again, it seems to work for Sappho. And I believe there is only one more project that is a collection of fragments from the notebook of a popular (classic?) author within the last 100 years…. does this count? I mean, sometimes, even the scraps seem interesting, right? Sometimes we create an excellent line but never end up placing it…. what if that line is really devastating?
In the end, you can’t tell eyeballs from print sales either. You’d think money would mean something, but I’ve sadly bought plenty of things I haven’t read, and I know I’m not alone.
In the end, you can’t tell eyeballs from print sales either. You’d think money would mean something, but I’ve sadly bought plenty of things I haven’t read, and I know I’m not alone.
I’ve definitely taken a CW class in order to spur my writing and it worked like a charm. I think Sean is right that publication can be a healthy motivator for progress.
I’ve definitely taken a CW class in order to spur my writing and it worked like a charm. I think Sean is right that publication can be a healthy motivator for progress.
would you say Steve Almond does this?
would you say Steve Almond does this?
ugh
ugh
Then you are going to love this. . . http://www.facebook.com/father.luke.writer
Then you are going to love this. . . http://www.facebook.com/father.luke.writer
[…] Justin Taylor kind of touches upon this, or rather his post can easily be a springboard for the previous […]
………………../??/)…………………(??……………
……………..,/?../……………………..?,………….
……………./…./……………………………………
………/“/??/’—‘/???`??………….?????`’—‘??“……
……../’/…/…./……./??………/??…………..’…
…….(‘(…?…?…. ?~/’…’)…….(‘…’~? ….?…?…)’)..
…………………….’…../…………’……………../.
………”…………. _.??…………`??_……… ./…”…
…………………….(………………)…………../…..
……………………………………/…………./……
………………../??/)…………………(\??\……………
……………..,/?../……………………\..?\,………….
……………./…./………………………\….\………..
………/“/??/’—‘/???`??………….?????`\’—‘\??\“\……
……../’/…/…./……./??\………/??\…….\….\…\’\…
…….(‘(…?…?…. ?~/’…’)…….(‘…’\~? ….?…?…)’)..
……..\……………..’…../…….\…..’……………../.
………”…\………. _.??…………`??_……… ./…”…
………..\…………..(………………)…………../…..
………….\………….\……………./…………./……
i like this way of looking at it, sean. i run a lot, too, and have never made this connection, which is depressing.
i like this way of looking at it, sean. i run a lot, too, and have never made this connection, which is depressing.
i cringe when i see writers i like listing 300 journals they’ve been in. i used to have all my credits listed in zoetrope bio page. one editor, who apparently didn’t like my submitted bio, went into zoe and cut/pasted that list into my bio. after reading the contributors page, i deleted my zoetrope bio and have never listed more than 3-4 journals in a bio since.
i cringe when i see writers i like listing 300 journals they’ve been in. i used to have all my credits listed in zoetrope bio page. one editor, who apparently didn’t like my submitted bio, went into zoe and cut/pasted that list into my bio. after reading the contributors page, i deleted my zoetrope bio and have never listed more than 3-4 journals in a bio since.
danke, sir
danke, sir
Howie, you said you have a PhD in American Studies from the University of Michigan? Do you know someone named Robert Bell? I think he’s currently doing a PhD in the same program.
Howie, you said you have a PhD in American Studies from the University of Michigan? Do you know someone named Robert Bell? I think he’s currently doing a PhD in the same program.
I’m a comedian and a writer, and I have to say this is spot on.
The comedy world is very much like the literary world in this sense. There is pressure to constantly perform, to constantly have your name out there and to constantly be generating new material. About six months ago, I was in the midst of an artistic crisis. I had just come off of writing, performing in and producing a successful sketch show, I was doing stand-up every other week and I was filming a Web series that I wrote and starred in. I should have been extremely satisfied. But I wasn’t. I felt like I was just churning out work. It almost became a job, and it muddled the true reason why I had started to do comedy in the first place…because I love comedy. Of course I love my stuff to be heard and that therefore necessitates an audience. But as an artist, I maintain high standards, and falling below that would mean I wasn’t producing something I could proudly call “comedy.”
I took a break to evaluate what direction to go. During this time, my mind got some much-needed rest, and I found myself just naturally writing for writing’s sake. And the work I produced was some of the best I’ve ever written. Specifically I was writing first-person essays, humorous but poignant pieces. I realized this is the stuff I wanted to show an audience. And thus a monthly reading series was born. Now I give other artists of all genres a place to showcase their work to a live audience, which makes me very happy.
Besides the benefits of taking a break and listening to yourself (because if you follow what feels right internally it will lead you to success…so just block out all that exterior pressure to publish and perform and do what YOU want to do), I learned that the scene will never leave. You can leave it, but it will be there when you get back. And your absence won’t really hurt it or you.
I’m a comedian and a writer, and I have to say this is spot on.
The comedy world is very much like the literary world in this sense. There is pressure to constantly perform, to constantly have your name out there and to constantly be generating new material. About six months ago, I was in the midst of an artistic crisis. I had just come off of writing, performing in and producing a successful sketch show, I was doing stand-up every other week and I was filming a Web series that I wrote and starred in. I should have been extremely satisfied. But I wasn’t. I felt like I was just churning out work. It almost became a job, and it muddled the true reason why I had started to do comedy in the first place…because I love comedy. Of course I love my stuff to be heard and that therefore necessitates an audience. But as an artist, I maintain high standards, and falling below that would mean I wasn’t producing something I could proudly call “comedy.”
I took a break to evaluate what direction to go. During this time, my mind got some much-needed rest, and I found myself just naturally writing for writing’s sake. And the work I produced was some of the best I’ve ever written. Specifically I was writing first-person essays, humorous but poignant pieces. I realized this is the stuff I wanted to show an audience. And thus a monthly reading series was born. Now I give other artists of all genres a place to showcase their work to a live audience, which makes me very happy.
Besides the benefits of taking a break and listening to yourself (because if you follow what feels right internally it will lead you to success…so just block out all that exterior pressure to publish and perform and do what YOU want to do), I learned that the scene will never leave. You can leave it, but it will be there when you get back. And your absence won’t really hurt it or you.
Hey Justin: I’m printing this out & inserting into a makeshift bible of sorts. Bravo, man.
Hey Justin: I’m printing this out & inserting into a makeshift bible of sorts. Bravo, man.
this is one big point of view on writing.
this is one big point of view on writing.
Well, at least my completed first drafts are read (by friends that is, heh). In a way it goes toward mjm says…
Well, at least my completed first drafts are read (by friends that is, heh). In a way it goes toward mjm says…
Hey guys, writers have to eat too, right?
This article talks about it in a very objective way, I think. Worth a reading.
Hey guys, writers have to eat too, right?
This article talks about it in a very objective way, I think. Worth a reading.
Oh, I too feel I should clarify something. I never meant to offend or diminish the writers who chose the Indie pathway. That’s the problem with categorizations, we always generalize too much, and end up wronging someone. (Sorry Dan, Jesus, anyone else who might have felt offended or hurt?)
I have great respect for all writers, published or unpublished; those who go for the big companies, or the small ones; and of course for the entrepreneurs who do all by themselves! In the end, it doesn’t matter the motivation; what matters is that you created something, and even better if you cared to share with other people.
It’s all about which “format” works better for each person.
Oh, I too feel I should clarify something. I never meant to offend or diminish the writers who chose the Indie pathway. That’s the problem with categorizations, we always generalize too much, and end up wronging someone. (Sorry Dan, Jesus, anyone else who might have felt offended or hurt?)
I have great respect for all writers, published or unpublished; those who go for the big companies, or the small ones; and of course for the entrepreneurs who do all by themselves! In the end, it doesn’t matter the motivation; what matters is that you created something, and even better if you cared to share with other people.
It’s all about which “format” works better for each person.
no thang, mariana. I never get offended, except by people who go around saying, “I’m offended!”
I also think you’re right re: multi pathways, which is why I’m all for multimedia, multitentacled, no limits, come what comes…
no thang, mariana. I never get offended, except by people who go around saying, “I’m offended!”
I also think you’re right re: multi pathways, which is why I’m all for multimedia, multitentacled, no limits, come what comes…
Precisely: “the scene will never leave.” Of course, until it does… everything changes, but more to the point: “You can leave it, but it will be there when you get back. And your absence won’t really hurt it or you.” Yep, no shortage of creative folks doing their thing. Downtime generates new energy and ideas. It’s essential.
Precisely: “the scene will never leave.” Of course, until it does… everything changes, but more to the point: “You can leave it, but it will be there when you get back. And your absence won’t really hurt it or you.” Yep, no shortage of creative folks doing their thing. Downtime generates new energy and ideas. It’s essential.
A man enters a restaurant. He is seated right away at his favorite place and he eats his favorite food very quickly, he checks his watch, and then he exits out a door which leads to a man who is sitting beside a river. The man keeps his back to the other for quite awhile. In fact, he never turns around as he is fishing in the river. He is fishing with a fishing hat and a fishing vest. He also has a fishing pole and a bucket of partially melted ice. The other man eventually sits besides him and he looks at the river.
Earlier, at the restaurant, the man had attempted to plan what exactly he would do while he was seated beside the man beside the river. What he would do. He had known for several days now about the man who liked to fish in that spot. He had heard about his travels through the town, how he had discovered several places that no one had ever gone before, how quietly he spoke to the bartenders and the waitresses, and several other things which would all go into his plans for sitting beside him beside the river. For example, or rather, not for example, but exactly as it
would go he’d remove the matchbook from his pocket and then he would kneel before the man while facing him in his face and he would light a match with the matchbook and he would hold it in front of the man’s face while trying to ascertain the exact color and quality of his eye’s and then he’d say, Fred?
A man enters a restaurant. He is seated right away at his favorite place and he eats his favorite food very quickly, he checks his watch, and then he exits out a door which leads to a man who is sitting beside a river. The man keeps his back to the other for quite awhile. In fact, he never turns around as he is fishing in the river. He is fishing with a fishing hat and a fishing vest. He also has a fishing pole and a bucket of partially melted ice. The other man eventually sits besides him and he looks at the river.
Earlier, at the restaurant, the man had attempted to plan what exactly he would do while he was seated beside the man beside the river. What he would do. He had known for several days now about the man who liked to fish in that spot. He had heard about his travels through the town, how he had discovered several places that no one had ever gone before, how quietly he spoke to the bartenders and the waitresses, and several other things which would all go into his plans for sitting beside him beside the river. For example, or rather, not for example, but exactly as it
would go he’d remove the matchbook from his pocket and then he would kneel before the man while facing him in his face and he would light a match with the matchbook and he would hold it in front of the man’s face while trying to ascertain the exact color and quality of his eye’s and then he’d say, Fred?
Thanks Jesus, feeling much relieved now. :)
Thanks Jesus, feeling much relieved now. :)
Oh, this is so nice. Thanks for sharing! :)
Oh, this is so nice. Thanks for sharing! :)
Does anyone know the source of that Barthelme quote? “great glittering failures like a reason for our lives” I would be pleased to read it in context, careful and slow, online or not, but I can’t find it.
Anyone?
Does anyone know the source of that Barthelme quote? “great glittering failures like a reason for our lives” I would be pleased to read it in context, careful and slow, online or not, but I can’t find it.
Anyone?
Shay, you can’t find the quote because I’ve mis-quoted him, rather badly it seems. The line is from the close of “Nothing: A Preliminary Account,” which you can find in Sixty Stories. Here is the proper line-
“How joyous the notion that, try as we may, we cannot do other than fail and fail absolutely and that the task will remain always before us, like a meaning for our lives.”
I mis-remembered the line as appearing in “The Glass Mountain,” which has a whole thing in it about glittering–and another whole thing about reasons–so that’s a big OOPS for me. I finally figured it out using Google Book Search, after both “failures” AND “reasons” turned up zilch, I realized I must have bungled the thing rather badly, so I searched for “lives” and finally got it.
Shay, you can’t find the quote because I’ve mis-quoted him, rather badly it seems. The line is from the close of “Nothing: A Preliminary Account,” which you can find in Sixty Stories. Here is the proper line-
“How joyous the notion that, try as we may, we cannot do other than fail and fail absolutely and that the task will remain always before us, like a meaning for our lives.”
I mis-remembered the line as appearing in “The Glass Mountain,” which has a whole thing in it about glittering–and another whole thing about reasons–so that’s a big OOPS for me. I finally figured it out using Google Book Search, after both “failures” AND “reasons” turned up zilch, I realized I must have bungled the thing rather badly, so I searched for “lives” and finally got it.
Thanks for filling me in, footnoting—but, what a well bungled bungle! what an apposite oops! (I.e., there are many ways in which the thing I am trying in vain to say may be tried in vain to be said etc.)
Thanks for filling me in, footnoting—but, what a well bungled bungle! what an apposite oops! (I.e., there are many ways in which the thing I am trying in vain to say may be tried in vain to be said etc.)
Justin: Just read this again, and your followup comments, and again was massively inspired and assured. Really fucking excellent thing, here.
Justin: Just read this again, and your followup comments, and again was massively inspired and assured. Really fucking excellent thing, here.
I like the posting, it;s really caring.
I like the posting, it;s really caring.