Craft Notes
What the fuck is cheese?
In Dave Chappelle’s “what the fuck is juice?” joke, poor black people limited to sub-quality “purple drink” have no idea about the concept of juice as derived from an actual fruit. The racial implications of Chappelle’s humor are too complex for me to get into, and not what this post is about, so let’s just say I find the joke profound. In D.F. Wallace’s “This is Water” speech, wherein fish, asking “what is water?” take for granted the most essential constituent of their existence, Wallace ends by telling us “this is water,” meaning, we are the fish, and that cognizance of the things around us, which leads to positive/proactive thinking, is our responsibility. (Of course, one thinks about the last decision he made, an act which deserves reticence.) And so, dear writerly people, at this juncture I ask you what the fuck is cheese?
Cheese, that which is cliche, corny, sentimental, and all other vague no-nos subject to interpretation. “Saint Judas” by James Wright, one of my favorite poems, tip toes on cheesiness with lines which I’ve strike-thoughed:
Saint Judas
When I went out to kill myself, I caught
A pack of hoodlums beating up a man.
Running to spare his suffering, I forgot
My name, my number, how my day began,
How soldiers milled around the garden stone
And sang amusing songs; how all that day
Their javelins measured crowds; how I alone
Bargained the proper coins, and slipped away.Banished from heaven, I found this victim beaten,
Stripped, kneed, and left to cry. Dropping my rope
Aside, I ran, ignored the uniforms:
Then I remembered bread my flesh had eaten,
The kiss that ate my flesh. Flayed without hope,
I held the man for nothing in my arms.
“Banished from heaven,” “in my arms,” “left to cry,” and “to spare his suffering” reek of some Smashing Pumpkins song. You can always measure how little one has suffered by how much they glorify it — mascara running down the cheek was probably bought at the mall. However, the pain and humanity in “Saint Judas” do seem cloying, and I would prefer my restrained sans strike-throughed version. When writing, I’m constantly asking myself “is this cheesy?” I often wonder, is the fear of cheese nothing more than the flinches of a tired and wounded postmodern psyche? Or are cliches, originally awesome, simply overspent with time? I don’t know; I just know I don’t want any hugs or tears in my Saint Judas.
The hardened heart is a mysterious creature; our time is one of emotional stinginess. If it smells fishy, goat cheese and dill won’t hurt. Literature, like food, may just be a matter of taste — though cheese is a blurry line. The brain has two eyes attached at the front; the heart, blind, only has nipples. Nobody wants to be cheesy — it’s just so hard to stay sharp, brie brave, not get feta up, and wish for gouda luck.
Tags: James Wright, Saint Judas
good post. enjoyed the cheesy puns at the end :)
good post. enjoyed the cheesy puns at the end :)
Aren’t “banished from heaven” and “to spare his suffering” lines that ironically echo Biblical language, though? And, in that way, trading on their “cheese?” And “in my arms” the Pieta?
And, really, isn’t there something really striking about the line, “Banished from heaven, I found this victim beaten,” when you consider that Wright considers killing himself a kind of heaven?
Turn the cliche the right way, and I say go for it.
Also, great post.
Aren’t “banished from heaven” and “to spare his suffering” lines that ironically echo Biblical language, though? And, in that way, trading on their “cheese?” And “in my arms” the Pieta?
And, really, isn’t there something really striking about the line, “Banished from heaven, I found this victim beaten,” when you consider that Wright considers killing himself a kind of heaven?
Turn the cliche the right way, and I say go for it.
Also, great post.
Good edit of the poem!
As for cheesiness, don’t be afraid of it. Fear of cheesiness is fear of making an aesthetic mistake, and we all make them.
For some reason this post reminded me of Tom Waits reading “The Laughing Heart” by Charles Bukowski:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va1t6a0zCkQ
My favorite line: “Your life is your life/You are marvelous” Now that’s cheesy.
Good edit of the poem!
As for cheesiness, don’t be afraid of it. Fear of cheesiness is fear of making an aesthetic mistake, and we all make them.
For some reason this post reminded me of Tom Waits reading “The Laughing Heart” by Charles Bukowski:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va1t6a0zCkQ
My favorite line: “Your life is your life/You are marvelous” Now that’s cheesy.
Dropping my rope
Aside, I ran, ignored the unicorns:
thats how i originally read those lines and was suprised you didnt comment on them until i realized i am a moron.
Dropping my rope
Aside, I ran, ignored the unicorns:
thats how i originally read those lines and was suprised you didnt comment on them until i realized i am a moron.
I think this is a great post too, but would just throw in the following consideration — after a little bit of research, I think this poem was written / published in 1959, unless I am mistaken. Any sort of ex post facto critique using today’s standards for cheese measurement can only lead to a degree of trouble. Born in 1974 myself, I have no understanding of the innocence of America and American culture pre-1968, let’s say (somewhat arbitrarily), so I am guessing that in 1959, this piece might not have even reeked of sentimentality, much less cheesiness. It might have been read / analyzed as being profoundly sincere for all we know. For reference in 1959, think Robert Frost and Carl Sandburg on the one end of the spectrum, and the beat poets on the other, taking up the rebellious side of the argument.
Any post that gets the critical brain juices flowing is a great post in my book, so thanks much.
I think this is a great post too, but would just throw in the following consideration — after a little bit of research, I think this poem was written / published in 1959, unless I am mistaken. Any sort of ex post facto critique using today’s standards for cheese measurement can only lead to a degree of trouble. Born in 1974 myself, I have no understanding of the innocence of America and American culture pre-1968, let’s say (somewhat arbitrarily), so I am guessing that in 1959, this piece might not have even reeked of sentimentality, much less cheesiness. It might have been read / analyzed as being profoundly sincere for all we know. For reference in 1959, think Robert Frost and Carl Sandburg on the one end of the spectrum, and the beat poets on the other, taking up the rebellious side of the argument.
Any post that gets the critical brain juices flowing is a great post in my book, so thanks much.
good post, jimmy
good post, jimmy
jesus, you’re a deeper reader than me
you either need glasses or a horn in your head
jesus, you’re a deeper reader than me
you either need glasses or a horn in your head
i guess the age-old question is: is cheese time-sensitive?
i guess the age-old question is: is cheese time-sensitive?
Or maybe does every time period / generation have its own cheese factor, and then after a certain expiration date, it doesn’t count anymore? something like that maybe. Eventually, doesn’t all culture get lumped onto the cheese pile though? And then it’s sometimes later on taken back off that pile and reconsidered? As a painter, I look at Picasso, regardless of world popularity or auction sales prices, etc., and think — whoa. Super cheese. But I look at Warhol’s screen test films and think, those are still really interesting. I could picture each interpretation flip-flopping with the other in another 50 or 100 years.
Or maybe does every time period / generation have its own cheese factor, and then after a certain expiration date, it doesn’t count anymore? something like that maybe. Eventually, doesn’t all culture get lumped onto the cheese pile though? And then it’s sometimes later on taken back off that pile and reconsidered? As a painter, I look at Picasso, regardless of world popularity or auction sales prices, etc., and think — whoa. Super cheese. But I look at Warhol’s screen test films and think, those are still really interesting. I could picture each interpretation flip-flopping with the other in another 50 or 100 years.
“You can always measure how little one has suffered by how much they glorify it.”
This is true. Thanks, Jimmy.
“You can always measure how little one has suffered by how much they glorify it.”
This is true. Thanks, Jimmy.
Poems about suicide are almost always overwrought. And those edits fuck up the meter.
Poems about suicide are almost always overwrought. And those edits fuck up the meter.
after a while, it all begins to spoil, but the creamy stuff goes first
after a while, it all begins to spoil, but the creamy stuff goes first
don’t know much about meters. i am not educated in that way. not an apology, just a clarification. best, jc
don’t know much about meters. i am not educated in that way. not an apology, just a clarification. best, jc
Me either. I tend to remember info like this in flashes from my reading–italian sonnet, roughly pentameter, formal poems–>looser free verse, supposedly after Bly’s influence etc.
Cheese tolerance was higher back then, no question.
Me either. I tend to remember info like this in flashes from my reading–italian sonnet, roughly pentameter, formal poems–>looser free verse, supposedly after Bly’s influence etc.
Cheese tolerance was higher back then, no question.
Adverbs, filtering, be verbs, the word walk, Indian food, apartments in NY, the words because, start, began, suddenly, protagonist who commits suicide (the most boring choice), vampire lovers, lovers, men chasing women with obstacles thrown in, women chasing men with obstacles thrown in, yourself as the yourself, ha, ha, bourbon and bathtubs, crying, guns that do not fire, thunder during murder, guns that fire, the word stench, any drug, talking out loud, mushrooms in any form, exclamation marks, putting a poem in that prose, awakening from dreams, closed head injuries, bourbon and lighters, cleavage, zombies, zombie cleavage, robots, robot zombies, talking out loud to pets, opening with dialogue, titling a work Untitled, song lyrics from dead singers, the moon, the moon, also the moon–Velveeta.
Adverbs, filtering, be verbs, the word walk, Indian food, apartments in NY, the words because, start, began, suddenly, protagonist who commits suicide (the most boring choice), vampire lovers, lovers, men chasing women with obstacles thrown in, women chasing men with obstacles thrown in, yourself as the yourself, ha, ha, bourbon and bathtubs, crying, guns that do not fire, thunder during murder, guns that fire, the word stench, any drug, talking out loud, mushrooms in any form, exclamation marks, putting a poem in that prose, awakening from dreams, closed head injuries, bourbon and lighters, cleavage, zombies, zombie cleavage, robots, robot zombies, talking out loud to pets, opening with dialogue, titling a work Untitled, song lyrics from dead singers, the moon, the moon, also the moon–Velveeta.
Zombies=cheese
Robot zombies=cool
Zombies=cheese
Robot zombies=cool
nice post. i feel like i’d be interested to read you keep thinking about these things, sustaining your thinkthrough, etc.
have you read “on camp” by susan sontag?
nice post. i feel like i’d be interested to read you keep thinking about these things, sustaining your thinkthrough, etc.
have you read “on camp” by susan sontag?
take any coupla words in that poem out of context, they all reek of ‘cheese’ – & selected struckthroughs reek of arbitrary
many contexts justify or help inform a reading of the cut: meter someone mentioned, rhythm, lyric, tradition speaker’s coming out of, formality of that tradition, belief in the expressiveness of received form, content (lots happens to THAT when for only one xample ‘in my arms’ is cut, thinkin bout the moral transposition of judas and christ (think: ‘with arms wide open’ ) – i think it does a disservice to old poems to select only a single (pun intended!) context by which to judge the merit of a word or group of words in a poem
what is or is not ‘cheese’ is irrelevant to the other contexts of the poem, to my mind
thinking about only the kneejerk and hyper-contemporary obsession w/th evil of ‘cheese’ in art – maybe this poem is dead / dated — but judged by the wide and deep field of contexts it brings with it, and demands we understand before we can truly ‘see’ the poem — it’s still pretty alive “as is” (to me)
take any coupla words in that poem out of context, they all reek of ‘cheese’ – & selected struckthroughs reek of arbitrary
many contexts justify or help inform a reading of the cut: meter someone mentioned, rhythm, lyric, tradition speaker’s coming out of, formality of that tradition, belief in the expressiveness of received form, content (lots happens to THAT when for only one xample ‘in my arms’ is cut, thinkin bout the moral transposition of judas and christ (think: ‘with arms wide open’ ) – i think it does a disservice to old poems to select only a single (pun intended!) context by which to judge the merit of a word or group of words in a poem
what is or is not ‘cheese’ is irrelevant to the other contexts of the poem, to my mind
thinking about only the kneejerk and hyper-contemporary obsession w/th evil of ‘cheese’ in art – maybe this poem is dead / dated — but judged by the wide and deep field of contexts it brings with it, and demands we understand before we can truly ‘see’ the poem — it’s still pretty alive “as is” (to me)
my thinks are short. i get bored. yes i read ‘on camp’ and enjoyed it immensely
my thinks are short. i get bored. yes i read ‘on camp’ and enjoyed it immensely
yeah, i just really liked hearing what you had to say and feel like i would keep liking it if you kept saying. =)
yeah, i just really liked hearing what you had to say and feel like i would keep liking it if you kept saying. =)
hope that was an intentional reference to “cheese zombies”…how could it not be? the only thing i miss about highschool (maybe just a bay area thing?) is the cheese zombies…
http://www.theulloms.com/myrecipes/cheese_zombies.htm
then again, maybe not just a bay area thing…
xo
hope that was an intentional reference to “cheese zombies”…how could it not be? the only thing i miss about highschool (maybe just a bay area thing?) is the cheese zombies…
http://www.theulloms.com/myrecipes/cheese_zombies.htm
then again, maybe not just a bay area thing…
xo
You gotta me kidding me. Picasso is cheesy?! Ridiculous
You gotta me kidding me. Picasso is cheesy?! Ridiculous
your criteria for judging picasso and warhol’s screen test films here comes from the perspective of what is “relevant now and unassailable in terms of ‘coolness’ and the ‘right’ kind of pretentiousness (which is sometimes the feigning of being unpretentious).” or another way of putting it: can i still write a grad paper about this work of art? do i “get” this while lesser mortals still don’t “get” this? that’s a very unfortunate perspective.
your criteria for judging picasso and warhol’s screen test films here comes from the perspective of what is “relevant now and unassailable in terms of ‘coolness’ and the ‘right’ kind of pretentiousness (which is sometimes the feigning of being unpretentious).” or another way of putting it: can i still write a grad paper about this work of art? do i “get” this while lesser mortals still don’t “get” this? that’s a very unfortunate perspective.
less grouchy way of putting it= art shouldn’t be as disposable as fashion
less grouchy way of putting it= art shouldn’t be as disposable as fashion
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