Haut or not
Haut or Not: “Worst of” (w/ digression)
What I could see happening has happened: satirical Haut or Not entrees — and from whom other than ‘TTB’ aka ‘Two Tears Boye,’ from Jaguar Uprising Press. (Circa 07-08 TTB and his partner Golden Bear were lamented/admired for their satirical takes on Bear Parade titles.) TTB writes this:
Hi, My name is jimmy chen. I wuz wundering if u could review my current reads bookcase on yur super duper website thingy! THANKS A BUNDLE!! hehe lol.
Empathetic satire or pure derision? I’ll opt for the former. TTB’s jest was followed by no doubt a found picture of some girl’s stack o’ chick books. TTB’s derivative impulses are arguably haut, but this stack of books may be the worst stack of books I’ve ever seen in my life.
—
Speaking of derision, while surfing Shane Jones’ blog, I came across a comment by a Brent Bogardus whose passive-aggressive comment “Yes, you are so amazing. Congrats on that” compelled me (yes, I have too much time) to check out his blog, which (at the time when it was still non invite-only) contained a very angry post about hating Shane Jones, and — non-sarcastically — how Shane was gay. Brent went on to say that Jones’ publisher Adam Robinson was also gay. His invite-only blog is now ‘shanejonessucks.blogspot.com’, a URL commitment which is officially scary.
You can always measure one’s success by how much people resent, or even ‘hate’ that person. It’s simple: dissent has no meaning when aimed at ‘meaningless’ people — its ‘ethical currency’ is only established when aimed at abstractions of success. It comes from being petty and small — too lazy to work towards a success one secretly resents, under the ostensible guise of some ‘moral commentary.’ If Shane Jones did not receive praise for Light Boxes, the act of hating him would have no meaning. I’ve noticed similar negative feelings towards Blake Butler, and consistently with Tao Lin. These three gentlemen should be proud that they are resented.
Brent Bogardus has no reason to hate me, though if I published a book from Vintage, a caravan of bloggers would join in saying I had no talent. The irony is that these self-appointed judges of ‘inherent character’ are actually driven by extrinsic factors such as publishing/career success. The work is scrutinized less than the success. The literary world is, simply, exactly like the world in general: hard work plus diplomacy equals success. To argue about ‘talent’ is a cheap way out; it’s like calling someone’s face ugly. In a world of nose jobs, there is still no such thing as a talent job. It’s not what god gave us, but what we do with it.
For the records, I haven’t gone out of my way to put Brent on the spot. He submitted a pic for Haut or not, and it was impossible for me to be reticent about the aforementioned. Anyways, here’s Brent’s lame-ass books. No offense to the esteemed authors, the collection is just so uninspired and boring, like Brent’s hate.
Tags: light boxes, shane jones, Two Tears Boy
In the middle of that first pile is a book by Sarah Grace McCandless. Sarah’s first book, Grosse Pointe Girl was originally published by Future Tense. Also, Paul Feig—author of Superstud—created the TV show Freaks and Geeks.
In the middle of that first pile is a book by Sarah Grace McCandless. Sarah’s first book, Grosse Pointe Girl was originally published by Future Tense. Also, Paul Feig—author of Superstud—created the TV show Freaks and Geeks.
Well, Ayn Rand is one of the worst writers EVER, but I give dude credit for the Larry Brown book.
Interestingly enough, Jimmy, I think the existence of a URL like shanejonessucks, as well as all the antics of TTB and those adorable Jaguar Undergrads, basically proves the exact *opposite* of your thesis.
I mean no offense to Blake, Tao, or Shane when I write this, but I see the existence of these anti- or parody sites has very limited value as a marker of fame/relevance. I mean yes, it clearly indicates that somebody read your work, disliked it/you, and assumes that there exists a body of other people who need to be converted away from liking your work, etc. So there’s that.
But I think more than that, what it indicates is how low the threshhold is to trigger that kind of response. Jaguar Etc’s parody of Bear Parade is cute, for what it is, but it isn’t exactly on the same scale as Kurt Cobain’s realizing he had “made it” when Weird Al called Nirvana up about parodying “Smells Like Teen Spirit.”
I think what I’m saying is let’s keep a sense of scale here. To call this thing even a tempest in a teapot would be to overstate the case grossly.
Also, I agree completely with your formulation that “success = hard work plus diplomacy,” and I’m with you in having less than no use for that bullshit “all success = selling out” attitude that I find rather prevalent in indie culture in general, but I don’t understand how arguing about talent is “a cheap way out.” Assuming that by “talent” you mean “quality of the work itself,” this seems to me rather like the most–possibly only–valid grounds for any kind of useful critique. Some things are better than others. Some writers are better than others. We don’t all agree on which ones, or what the standards are, but we have to be able to agree on at least the fact that there are disagreements worth having.
But of course this brings us back to the main issue: anyone who would start an “I hate _____” blog, obviously isn’t trying to be useful.
Well, Ayn Rand is one of the worst writers EVER, but I give dude credit for the Larry Brown book.
Interestingly enough, Jimmy, I think the existence of a URL like shanejonessucks, as well as all the antics of TTB and those adorable Jaguar Undergrads, basically proves the exact *opposite* of your thesis.
I mean no offense to Blake, Tao, or Shane when I write this, but I see the existence of these anti- or parody sites has very limited value as a marker of fame/relevance. I mean yes, it clearly indicates that somebody read your work, disliked it/you, and assumes that there exists a body of other people who need to be converted away from liking your work, etc. So there’s that.
But I think more than that, what it indicates is how low the threshhold is to trigger that kind of response. Jaguar Etc’s parody of Bear Parade is cute, for what it is, but it isn’t exactly on the same scale as Kurt Cobain’s realizing he had “made it” when Weird Al called Nirvana up about parodying “Smells Like Teen Spirit.”
I think what I’m saying is let’s keep a sense of scale here. To call this thing even a tempest in a teapot would be to overstate the case grossly.
Also, I agree completely with your formulation that “success = hard work plus diplomacy,” and I’m with you in having less than no use for that bullshit “all success = selling out” attitude that I find rather prevalent in indie culture in general, but I don’t understand how arguing about talent is “a cheap way out.” Assuming that by “talent” you mean “quality of the work itself,” this seems to me rather like the most–possibly only–valid grounds for any kind of useful critique. Some things are better than others. Some writers are better than others. We don’t all agree on which ones, or what the standards are, but we have to be able to agree on at least the fact that there are disagreements worth having.
But of course this brings us back to the main issue: anyone who would start an “I hate _____” blog, obviously isn’t trying to be useful.
thanks for weighing in justin.
i didn’t mean the jaguar uprising parodies = sucess, i meant that the derision = sucess.
‘talent’ and ‘quality of the work’ for me are two different things, as the latter includes hard work, attitude, and yada yada.
you can’t help how much talent you have, but you can help how good your work is, or winds up being — just my thoughts. calling someone untalented is the same as a christian calling someone ‘unsaved’ because it points at the inherent character of the person, and it’s abstract/absurd.
thanks for weighing in justin.
i didn’t mean the jaguar uprising parodies = sucess, i meant that the derision = sucess.
‘talent’ and ‘quality of the work’ for me are two different things, as the latter includes hard work, attitude, and yada yada.
you can’t help how much talent you have, but you can help how good your work is, or winds up being — just my thoughts. calling someone untalented is the same as a christian calling someone ‘unsaved’ because it points at the inherent character of the person, and it’s abstract/absurd.
Ayn Rand – will always be read. Shane Jones – forgotten in five years or less.
Ayn Rand – will always be read. Shane Jones – forgotten in five years or less.
Let’s all hate Jimmy Chen.
Let’s all hate Jimmy Chen.
Ayn Rand will always be read just like L. Ron Hubbard will always be read. There is always a market for even the most oversimplified, bullshit philosophies on life. That doesn’t mean they have any artistic merit. I’ll take Jaguar parody over Rand any day.
Ayn Rand will always be read just like L. Ron Hubbard will always be read. There is always a market for even the most oversimplified, bullshit philosophies on life. That doesn’t mean they have any artistic merit. I’ll take Jaguar parody over Rand any day.
Do we have to institutionalize gay bashing? I can see some value there, de-powering it or whatever, but can’t we leave that to people with poorer taste?
Do we have to institutionalize gay bashing? I can see some value there, de-powering it or whatever, but can’t we leave that to people with poorer taste?
i have officially ‘made it.’
thank you brad
i have officially ‘made it.’
thank you brad
I need to add some more rosy derision. That’s the best kind, I think.
Adam, could NOT agree with you more. cheers-
I need to add some more rosy derision. That’s the best kind, I think.
Adam, could NOT agree with you more. cheers-
agreed. i’m not sure there’s a less creative way to criticize someone than resorting to “gay”
agreed. i’m not sure there’s a less creative way to criticize someone than resorting to “gay”
Okay, I see what you’re saying now about the talent thing. But I stand by what I said about derision = success. I mean I’m agreeing with you that having even one detractor basically means you have at least one reader, which is ONE measure of success, but I’m just not sure how useful a rubric that is in terms of gauging “are people reading me” or “how well-known am I” etc etc. I think the logic of the internet inspires web-trolls like our friend Brent here to shoot for people they regard as only slightly higher up on the ladder than themselves. The same way Jaguar crew’s parody of Tao became a mutually beneficial & symbiotic relationship, except without the good intentions. I mean making a Neil Gaiman hate sight would attract you far more friends, as well as enemies, but you’re never getting Neil’s attention. Whereas here, the hater gains actual direct access to their target and/or target’s friends, because the playing field is relatively close to level.
AGAIN: I AM NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYBODY BY SAYING THAT THEY AREN’T REALLY FAMOUS. Shane, if you’re out there, I like you and the work you do– I’m not trying to be a dick. I’m just trying to think through an idea here.
Okay, I see what you’re saying now about the talent thing. But I stand by what I said about derision = success. I mean I’m agreeing with you that having even one detractor basically means you have at least one reader, which is ONE measure of success, but I’m just not sure how useful a rubric that is in terms of gauging “are people reading me” or “how well-known am I” etc etc. I think the logic of the internet inspires web-trolls like our friend Brent here to shoot for people they regard as only slightly higher up on the ladder than themselves. The same way Jaguar crew’s parody of Tao became a mutually beneficial & symbiotic relationship, except without the good intentions. I mean making a Neil Gaiman hate sight would attract you far more friends, as well as enemies, but you’re never getting Neil’s attention. Whereas here, the hater gains actual direct access to their target and/or target’s friends, because the playing field is relatively close to level.
AGAIN: I AM NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYBODY BY SAYING THAT THEY AREN’T REALLY FAMOUS. Shane, if you’re out there, I like you and the work you do– I’m not trying to be a dick. I’m just trying to think through an idea here.
Or criticizing anything — not just people, anymore.
Or criticizing anything — not just people, anymore.
well put justin. i get it now.
well put justin. i get it now.
The line should always stop at the work. Criticize the work all you want, but leave the author out of it. It seems to be very difficult to people to do that.
The line should always stop at the work. Criticize the work all you want, but leave the author out of it. It seems to be very difficult to people to do that.
a state of no criticism is how we have shit up to our necks
a state of no criticism is how we have shit up to our necks
molly, i totally agree. it’s such an unattractive way to criticize anything. ugh, it truly drives me nuts. but no need to preach to the converted.
molly, i totally agree. it’s such an unattractive way to criticize anything. ugh, it truly drives me nuts. but no need to preach to the converted.
DON’T read Comments on the Internet – A tip.
DON’T read Comments on the Internet – A tip.
That site has been deleted. I was unable to maintain even a parody stance of hate against Jimmy Chen. That site got more hits than my blog has today. Now, I’m sad.
That site has been deleted. I was unable to maintain even a parody stance of hate against Jimmy Chen. That site got more hits than my blog has today. Now, I’m sad.
I went out with a girl once who had “Atlas Shrugged” on her bookshelf next to something called “The New Male Sexuality: The Truth About Men, Sex and Pleasure.”
It was confusing on many levels.
I went out with a girl once who had “Atlas Shrugged” on her bookshelf next to something called “The New Male Sexuality: The Truth About Men, Sex and Pleasure.”
It was confusing on many levels.
I’d like to make it with you, too, Jimmy–not merely because you are gay, but because I like oblivion and things that get forgotten. Usually they are really important, which is why I think people want to forget them. Like that guy Shane Jones, even though he’s gay, it is cool that he will be forgotten soon. It means that he is just too important right now, too significant for people to understand. And that’s okay. Because I will hold him very dearly close to my heart and when everyone forgets about him, I will say, “Wait.”
When you see the same stuff all the time, like commercials or people waiting for the bus, it kind of becomes meaningless–like Ayn Rand or that one guy, Brent Bogardus. People like Ayn and Brent just want a lot of attention all the time and always want to be remembered, which is nice. But, it’s not that hard to do if you do stuff and then disappear. So, I guess, Brent is on the right track.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I agree with you, Justin. And thank you, Justin, for being so nice to me. And I like you, too, Brad because I like hate more than I like love because when you hate someone, it just means that you want them a lot. And I like you Max because you are smart like a lot of people on HTML.
Am I the only girl responding to this post?
I’d like to make it with you, too, Jimmy–not merely because you are gay, but because I like oblivion and things that get forgotten. Usually they are really important, which is why I think people want to forget them. Like that guy Shane Jones, even though he’s gay, it is cool that he will be forgotten soon. It means that he is just too important right now, too significant for people to understand. And that’s okay. Because I will hold him very dearly close to my heart and when everyone forgets about him, I will say, “Wait.”
When you see the same stuff all the time, like commercials or people waiting for the bus, it kind of becomes meaningless–like Ayn Rand or that one guy, Brent Bogardus. People like Ayn and Brent just want a lot of attention all the time and always want to be remembered, which is nice. But, it’s not that hard to do if you do stuff and then disappear. So, I guess, Brent is on the right track.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I agree with you, Justin. And thank you, Justin, for being so nice to me. And I like you, too, Brad because I like hate more than I like love because when you hate someone, it just means that you want them a lot. And I like you Max because you are smart like a lot of people on HTML.
Am I the only girl responding to this post?
i tripped over the fountainhead once and hurt my foot.
i like what adam said.
i tripped over the fountainhead once and hurt my foot.
i like what adam said.
Molly? I thought for a second that I was the only girl responding to this post. I am sorry. I liked what you wrote. It’s funny because I like to criticize things because when you criticize things it’s like cutting them up into something different and I feel that if nobody criticized things then things would get made and just sit there like all normal and everyone would just walk around it and not do anything and kind of pretend it’s not there.
But, it doesn’t make any sense to criticize people. Unless they are super rich or are politicians.
Molly? I thought for a second that I was the only girl responding to this post. I am sorry. I liked what you wrote. It’s funny because I like to criticize things because when you criticize things it’s like cutting them up into something different and I feel that if nobody criticized things then things would get made and just sit there like all normal and everyone would just walk around it and not do anything and kind of pretend it’s not there.
But, it doesn’t make any sense to criticize people. Unless they are super rich or are politicians.
first comment
first comment
Tempest in a demitasse?
Tempest in a demitasse?
All forms of criticism are good. It furthers debate, encourages free thought and promotes an atmosphere of transparency. Statements like “So and so sucks” or “This is bad” or “I hate this” do the opposite.
All forms of criticism are good. It furthers debate, encourages free thought and promotes an atmosphere of transparency. Statements like “So and so sucks” or “This is bad” or “I hate this” do the opposite.
Justin and Jimmy- I liked how you worked things out there in the beginning.
I am writing from a place of unsureness here, Justin, but I do want to say that I think of Ayn Rand as a YA author. I know she isn’t technically one, but her message- what I remember of it– was largely– take resonsibility for your life, and don’t make excuses, and whatever you choose to do, do it with your whole heart. Now, that is cheesy, and the fact that she took that message to some crazed cult/Hubbard level (not quite Hubbard, but that was the idea) is sordid, but in response to that comment how some guy was baffled that a girl had it one her shelf alongside some male love shit–that all makes sense to me. I don’t think I want to reread Are you there God, it’s me Margaret, but it had it’s time in my life. As bad as a writer Rand is, she is intriguing enough to make a wonderful part of Gaitskill’s novel, Two Girls, Fat and Thin. I do not defend her AT ALL, I just want to defend some of her fans, who I think are largely 16 yr old girls.
Don’t hate me.
Justin and Jimmy- I liked how you worked things out there in the beginning.
I am writing from a place of unsureness here, Justin, but I do want to say that I think of Ayn Rand as a YA author. I know she isn’t technically one, but her message- what I remember of it– was largely– take resonsibility for your life, and don’t make excuses, and whatever you choose to do, do it with your whole heart. Now, that is cheesy, and the fact that she took that message to some crazed cult/Hubbard level (not quite Hubbard, but that was the idea) is sordid, but in response to that comment how some guy was baffled that a girl had it one her shelf alongside some male love shit–that all makes sense to me. I don’t think I want to reread Are you there God, it’s me Margaret, but it had it’s time in my life. As bad as a writer Rand is, she is intriguing enough to make a wonderful part of Gaitskill’s novel, Two Girls, Fat and Thin. I do not defend her AT ALL, I just want to defend some of her fans, who I think are largely 16 yr old girls.
Don’t hate me.
well, 16 year old girls and Alan Greenspan.
well, 16 year old girls and Alan Greenspan.
That’s funny.
But no, I see some teenage girl clutching son Rand ( I bet that is 80 percent of her readership) and I don’t think “you idiot” or “you are evil”. I think, shit, she just wants to know how to take control of her life. It’s always the loser 16 yr olds, btw, not the head of cheerleaders or debate club or whatever. Anyway, Gaitskill handles the subject matter superbly in Two Girls Fat and Thin.
lol
lol
I don’t know. It seems like there are more than one kind of responsibility, right? There is the ethical kind, right? And there is the personal kind, which is not necessarily separate from the ethical kind (whatever that means). And there are a bunch of other kinds, too. And then there is something else, a responsibility that belongs to this kind of urgency of writing that drives us to respond to each other, to virtually no one. And yet, we are here. Even those of us who respond by not writing anything. Here.
It is, I guess, a response to something impossible in which I am not entirely me anymore, but something else, like, some other person. And I like the anarchy of it. It kind of disorders things, in a good way.
Ideology is a weird thing. And so are drugs.
I don’t know. It seems like there are more than one kind of responsibility, right? There is the ethical kind, right? And there is the personal kind, which is not necessarily separate from the ethical kind (whatever that means). And there are a bunch of other kinds, too. And then there is something else, a responsibility that belongs to this kind of urgency of writing that drives us to respond to each other, to virtually no one. And yet, we are here. Even those of us who respond by not writing anything. Here.
It is, I guess, a response to something impossible in which I am not entirely me anymore, but something else, like, some other person. And I like the anarchy of it. It kind of disorders things, in a good way.
Ideology is a weird thing. And so are drugs.
I didn’t think the girl (actually, woman, at that point) was evil, there was just something funny about the juxtaposition of The Virtue of Selfishness and a book about How To Please Your Man.
Jokes: always funnier when they require follow-up explanation!
I didn’t think the girl (actually, woman, at that point) was evil, there was just something funny about the juxtaposition of The Virtue of Selfishness and a book about How To Please Your Man.
Jokes: always funnier when they require follow-up explanation!
Mike- I wasn’t implying you thought she was evil, I was just riffing on the perception of people who like Rand. I think of them as lost souls who need encouragement as well as books on men’s sexual lalala. It just made sense to me, the two books side by side. Basically, Rand is a self help book.
But reading Two Girls Fat and Thin by Gaitskill is the thing to do to understand Rand’s appeal.
I like Barrelhouse.
Thanks.
I’d like to read that book, actually. My only Rand knowledge is from Tobias Wolff’s Old School. Not the most flattering portrayal (or the best book, for that matter, though I like other Wolff stuff).
Thanks.
I’d like to read that book, actually. My only Rand knowledge is from Tobias Wolff’s Old School. Not the most flattering portrayal (or the best book, for that matter, though I like other Wolff stuff).
I had no idea Rand has a moment in Old School. I’ve olny read his short fiction. Interesting. Two Girls Fat and Thin is not Gaitskill’s best, but I’ll take her not-best over some one else’s best any day. I read it twice. But uh, a long time ago both times. Anyway, my dumbass point was, I see Rand in a bookshelf, I think, someone is really looking for direction. And It makes me feel compassion. That’s all.
Rand comes to give a reading at the boarding school in Old School. And hijinks ensue (not really).
I liked Because She Wanted To. And other random Gaitskill stories I’ve seen here and there.
Rand comes to give a reading at the boarding school in Old School. And hijinks ensue (not really).
I liked Because She Wanted To. And other random Gaitskill stories I’ve seen here and there.
back when i was a pump jockey i pumped gas for a volkswagen van with texas plates and they had some homemade sticker with a quote on the back window. when i asked about it they said it was a reference to Atlas Shrugged. i hadn’t read any Rand and still haven’t, but they were pretty jazzed about her. they also offered to share their weed with me because it was the day after my birthday.
back when i was a pump jockey i pumped gas for a volkswagen van with texas plates and they had some homemade sticker with a quote on the back window. when i asked about it they said it was a reference to Atlas Shrugged. i hadn’t read any Rand and still haven’t, but they were pretty jazzed about her. they also offered to share their weed with me because it was the day after my birthday.
Resorting to cries of “he’s gay” is akin to going to a UFC event and non-ironically screaming USA! USA! when the entrants are Bill and Jeff, from Spokane and Fort Worth.
Resorting to cries of “he’s gay” is akin to going to a UFC event and non-ironically screaming USA! USA! when the entrants are Bill and Jeff, from Spokane and Fort Worth.
i’ve read a little blake butler, and success or not, i think his writing is terrible. maybe i just don’t “get it.” i think he writes like an out-of-breath teenager that can’t string together a coherent plot, let alone a discernible theme.
i’ve read a little blake butler, and success or not, i think his writing is terrible. maybe i just don’t “get it.” i think he writes like an out-of-breath teenager that can’t string together a coherent plot, let alone a discernible theme.
David-why would you leave this comment on a lit blog that is edited by Blake Butler? Not that there isn’t room for dissent, but this just seems nasty. Why bother?
David-why would you leave this comment on a lit blog that is edited by Blake Butler? Not that there isn’t room for dissent, but this just seems nasty. Why bother?
i had no idea he edits this blog. i like this blog. in light of this new information, my comment probably was distasteful. but my opinion of mr. butler’s writing remains unchanged. i had a strong negative reaction when i read a few of his stories, and this post said that this negativity was something to be proud of. i found the poster’s claim to be patently ridiculous and thought it would be fair to share my sentiments regarding some of mr. butler’s literature. my apologies if i came off as an ass in the process.
i had no idea he edits this blog. i like this blog. in light of this new information, my comment probably was distasteful. but my opinion of mr. butler’s writing remains unchanged. i had a strong negative reaction when i read a few of his stories, and this post said that this negativity was something to be proud of. i found the poster’s claim to be patently ridiculous and thought it would be fair to share my sentiments regarding some of mr. butler’s literature. my apologies if i came off as an ass in the process.
This is quite a up-to-date information. I think I’ll share it on Digg.
This is quite a up-to-date information. I think I’ll share it on Digg.