Mean
Diameter of a Circle Jerk
The recent “Bubble Boy” hoax may be read as an example of how people are, or wish to be, famous for being famous. Think of “New York” (person) from Flavor of Love who got her own show for being an awesome ho, or Octomom, or those bitches from The Hills or The Kardashians. People work on being famous instead of just working. These examples are “lowbrow,” but we are not exempt.
I have a hard time commenting on someone’s blog, or even this website, telling so and so I really liked their post or their story or whatever. If my feelings are very strong, I email them. If I can’t find their email, I say to myself: “This person will do fine in life without getting an email from me,” or “it should not matter to this person if I like their story — they should be writing on behalf of the story, not its reception.” And it all fits perfect in my head: 1) writers write, 2) readers read, and 3) everybody lives a nice modest life, 4) in relative obscurity, and 5) maybe one day, if applicable, a writer may be recognized, however mildly, for their contribution to literature.
That’s not the formula, rather: 1) start a blog, 2) comment on everyone else’s blog until your name is so pervasive that out of sheer curiosity one clicks on your blog, 3) continue doing so for >6 months until 40 – 60 strangers recognize your name. This is a shortcut to fame, a diluted and over-eager fame.
Enter Fictionaut, a “private” workshopping literary site in which authors can help other authors out using forums or comments. This sounds nice, but it seems to me, essentially, that published stories are being reposted simply to garner positive feedback, a way to milk the egotistical currency of each publication. Does one really need people to say “great story,” “love it,” and “nice”? Can not the story simply reside in on its own without being tugged from every angle with glib sentiment?
And for the commenters, the selfless enthusiasts and supporters of their peers’ work — is there some part of you, deep down inside, that is really more invested in propogating/promoting your own name (with that golden link to your account) with each comment? Isn’t “love it” simply a stand-in for “click here”? Is not the so called democracy of comments really micro self-promotion?
I’m not trying to be small, and while it is Mean Week, I really do respect everyone in this literary community on some fundamental level. But here’s my problem: Fictionaut is simply too nurturing of an environment, and it makes for weaker writers who are more n’ more dependent on constant affirmation. I think writers should write with that bug in their brain that tells them they fucking suck, without any reassurance. Each story should be a terrifying self-challenge to escape from suckdom. I like my writers unsatisfied, maybe a little self-loathing. Kafka did okay for himself.
David Foster Wallace often hated his writing, and the adverse opinions of our most esteemed literary critics didn’t really matter. “Great story,” even “Genuis” simply didn’t do it for him. His writing, perhaps more than any other writer I can name, was bigger than his concept of “self,” and what little “self” was left chewed away at him. He was a guilty writer, the best kind.
I think we should all slow down with all this ostensibly nurturing support — because it’s actually corrosive; it turns writing into a comment competition. Every one is having too good a time. Too many people are too good of friends with too many other people, and I don’t trust it. If a circle jerk is to be our metaphor, this bookake is just too messy for me — look out.
Tags: DFW, Fictionaut
I agree. The ‘congratulations’ word gets thrown around for most anything anybody mentions they do. You write a review, it appears somewhere, you post it anywhere, people say Congratulations. Huh? Congrats? I mean, Nice Review is cool to hear, or even critical responses, but patting on the back too hard for every thing that happens really bothers me.
I wonder if there is another intended function on Fictionaut, besides the back petting? The social networking part there seems to be important to some people. Does anybody have deeper thoughts on what their use of sites like Fictionaut and Goodreads etc are?
I agree. The ‘congratulations’ word gets thrown around for most anything anybody mentions they do. You write a review, it appears somewhere, you post it anywhere, people say Congratulations. Huh? Congrats? I mean, Nice Review is cool to hear, or even critical responses, but patting on the back too hard for every thing that happens really bothers me.
I wonder if there is another intended function on Fictionaut, besides the back petting? The social networking part there seems to be important to some people. Does anybody have deeper thoughts on what their use of sites like Fictionaut and Goodreads etc are?
i dig this post, jimmy. well said. seems like many people in & around htmlgiant are thinking similarly (see: my post below for example)
i dig this post, jimmy. well said. seems like many people in & around htmlgiant are thinking similarly (see: my post below for example)
How does the first p relate to the second p? Wait- we’re famous for reading htmlgiant? Or for writing on it? Sometimes people just write or respond because they can´t hold back telling someone they´re wack. Commenting without a name is of course even wacker than a name with a website because you could say whatever stupid shit you want. See youtube comments for more info. F-more, this shit just wastes time. Worse than facebook. Must stop.
How does the first p relate to the second p? Wait- we’re famous for reading htmlgiant? Or for writing on it? Sometimes people just write or respond because they can´t hold back telling someone they´re wack. Commenting without a name is of course even wacker than a name with a website because you could say whatever stupid shit you want. See youtube comments for more info. F-more, this shit just wastes time. Worse than facebook. Must stop.
This was well done and you raise valid points but at the same time, it seems like many people here have these very narrow definitions of what it means to be a writer and how writers comport themselves and that some writers are better than others not because of the words they leave on the page but rather because of how they perform the role of writer.
I don’t understand why it matters if people want to circle jerk over at Fictionaut or be blog commenting whores or whatever. Yes, that sort of thing gets very annoying very fast but those people are generally recognized for what they are and somehow the world keeps on turning. Today’s posts have been very… prescriptive and I find that interesting.
This was well done and you raise valid points but at the same time, it seems like many people here have these very narrow definitions of what it means to be a writer and how writers comport themselves and that some writers are better than others not because of the words they leave on the page but rather because of how they perform the role of writer.
I don’t understand why it matters if people want to circle jerk over at Fictionaut or be blog commenting whores or whatever. Yes, that sort of thing gets very annoying very fast but those people are generally recognized for what they are and somehow the world keeps on turning. Today’s posts have been very… prescriptive and I find that interesting.
There are a few words missing…. and it seems they think that some writers blah blah blah
There are a few words missing…. and it seems they think that some writers blah blah blah
what bothers me is not the community, but that the compliments seem insincere, almost self-servicing.
what bothers me is not the community, but that the compliments seem insincere, almost self-servicing.
Stephen Dixon, it that you?
Stephen Dixon, it that you?
I agree that at times the infinite loop of congratulation reads as insincere but either people really are being sincere and appreciative or they’re not. Either they really are that supportive or they are that self-serving. Either way, their conduct speaks volumes.
I had not heretofore considered the micro-self promotion angle but if that’s what people are doing, isn’t it just sad?
I agree that at times the infinite loop of congratulation reads as insincere but either people really are being sincere and appreciative or they’re not. Either they really are that supportive or they are that self-serving. Either way, their conduct speaks volumes.
I had not heretofore considered the micro-self promotion angle but if that’s what people are doing, isn’t it just sad?
I’m more interested in your idea that it is healthy to dislike your writing sometimes or to devalue it. I think this is true. The “bug in the brain” image is exactly right, or I like to think of it as running at high altitude, setting impossible standards. Writing doesn’t necessarily exorcise the bug, nor should it–fail better and all that jazz (succeed worse?). Deferring affirmation of any sort on something can actually push you to make it stronger, richer, stealthier, whereas getting too much positive feedback (and of an instantaneous variety) can be a recipe for complacency. It’s all about balance, though; psychologically, not all the time, neither extreme. I think Peter Elbow has something about playing the believing game and the doubting game, so cross-training is probably a good idea.
I’m more interested in your idea that it is healthy to dislike your writing sometimes or to devalue it. I think this is true. The “bug in the brain” image is exactly right, or I like to think of it as running at high altitude, setting impossible standards. Writing doesn’t necessarily exorcise the bug, nor should it–fail better and all that jazz (succeed worse?). Deferring affirmation of any sort on something can actually push you to make it stronger, richer, stealthier, whereas getting too much positive feedback (and of an instantaneous variety) can be a recipe for complacency. It’s all about balance, though; psychologically, not all the time, neither extreme. I think Peter Elbow has something about playing the believing game and the doubting game, so cross-training is probably a good idea.
Congrats. Great job here.
Congrats. Great job here.
what andy said. you’ve done it again.
what andy said. you’ve done it again.
if it is stephen dixon: I. was incredibly boring.
if it is stephen dixon: I. was incredibly boring.
Haha, I get it: “.I.”, like the picture.
Haha, I get it: “.I.”, like the picture.
lol
lol
agreed. it makes me think of the writers (myself included) going into undergrad writing programs, most of whom haven’t even had any critical response to their work beyond their mother’s fawning over the poem they wrote her for mother’s day, suddenly getting the bitchslap of bleeding ink manuscripts and realizing writing is hard and finally pushing themselves to create something worthwhile.
agreed. it makes me think of the writers (myself included) going into undergrad writing programs, most of whom haven’t even had any critical response to their work beyond their mother’s fawning over the poem they wrote her for mother’s day, suddenly getting the bitchslap of bleeding ink manuscripts and realizing writing is hard and finally pushing themselves to create something worthwhile.
sorry stephen, I. thought he was too harsh earlier so he decided to clarify what he meant by saying I. was incredibly boring.
what I. should have said was that reading I. made him want to gouge his eyes out with the finely-crafted corner of that beautiful and lovely-smelling book.
sorry stephen, I. thought he was too harsh earlier so he decided to clarify what he meant by saying I. was incredibly boring.
what I. should have said was that reading I. made him want to gouge his eyes out with the finely-crafted corner of that beautiful and lovely-smelling book.
i really dont understand the complaint here. i mean. so what. someone posts a story at fictionaut and they wait for what, at most, 5-6 people tell them, wow, cool story. and so what, if it makes someone feel good to hear it for two seconds, why shit on it?
i mean, thats what you do, right jimmy. you post these clever, pithy, witty, comments on htmlgiant, critiquing something or someone. why? so you can wait for the comments to pour in. for people to tell you how fucking smart and clever you are. how great and insightful the post was.
you can deny it or come up with some clever comeback but your bullshit and no different. so lay off.
why do people care so much what anyone else does?
i really dont understand the complaint here. i mean. so what. someone posts a story at fictionaut and they wait for what, at most, 5-6 people tell them, wow, cool story. and so what, if it makes someone feel good to hear it for two seconds, why shit on it?
i mean, thats what you do, right jimmy. you post these clever, pithy, witty, comments on htmlgiant, critiquing something or someone. why? so you can wait for the comments to pour in. for people to tell you how fucking smart and clever you are. how great and insightful the post was.
you can deny it or come up with some clever comeback but your bullshit and no different. so lay off.
why do people care so much what anyone else does?
I appreciate this post, Jimmy.
I’m someone who used to comment on a lot of blogs, but I know I only ever did so as a means to say something genuine. I later became an equal-opportunity blogroller, meaning I added anyone who wanted to be added. I’ll say that when I first entered into this community, I felt a huge thrill any time one of my heroes added me to his or her blogroll. But I also cheered when Blake removed his blogroll entirely. I did question Matt’s doing so, but partially because his was so long it must have taken a long time to put together. In any case, when I see serial commenters commenting, I often give the benefit of the doubt and assume they actually do have a relationship with the person they’re communicating with.
As for Fictionaut, I always thought it was a nice way to get to read stories that had been published in print mags only. My own writing there was always posted prior to publication, in hopes I would receive some helpful criticism. And a tiny ego boost resulting from any kind words is something not to take lightly in this world of otherwise impersonal rejection. It’s nice to have friendnauts.
The picture is disgusting, by the way.
P.S. I like that Crispin said something like, “Hello, Chenbot” in your Gchat. That cracked me up. Where’s that boy been, lately? I miss him.
I appreciate this post, Jimmy.
I’m someone who used to comment on a lot of blogs, but I know I only ever did so as a means to say something genuine. I later became an equal-opportunity blogroller, meaning I added anyone who wanted to be added. I’ll say that when I first entered into this community, I felt a huge thrill any time one of my heroes added me to his or her blogroll. But I also cheered when Blake removed his blogroll entirely. I did question Matt’s doing so, but partially because his was so long it must have taken a long time to put together. In any case, when I see serial commenters commenting, I often give the benefit of the doubt and assume they actually do have a relationship with the person they’re communicating with.
As for Fictionaut, I always thought it was a nice way to get to read stories that had been published in print mags only. My own writing there was always posted prior to publication, in hopes I would receive some helpful criticism. And a tiny ego boost resulting from any kind words is something not to take lightly in this world of otherwise impersonal rejection. It’s nice to have friendnauts.
The picture is disgusting, by the way.
P.S. I like that Crispin said something like, “Hello, Chenbot” in your Gchat. That cracked me up. Where’s that boy been, lately? I miss him.
I feel like I also hear you saying that external feedback can become a problematic (sorry, I hate that word but am too tired to think of a better one) motivator, and it’s important we not lose the discipline of sharpening our own critical judgment by facing our suck.
Positive comments don’t make me complacent, I think. They are nice, though, in helping me get to sleep.
Let’s try to think of at least one author we like who wasn’t suicidally depressed, so that we may not conflate the desire to commit self-harm with seriousness regarding writing. Let’s also try not to forget how many people drop out of writing because they lack confidence– that as a “woman” in “comedy” I have seen the Dunning–Kruger effect firsthand, and suspect Jimmy is incorrect to state that bad writing stems from praise, when in most cases praise is merely the result of an inability to recognize good writing. Recognition of the good requires exposure to the good much more than it does excoriation of the bad. In my Intro to Film class the instructor ripped into every new reel with a vengeance, and none of us picked up a Bolex again. Perhaps that was for the best, or perhaps there was talent wasted because we were intimidated and defeated, rather than challenged and inspired, by the way that course was run. The idea that all young people have a surplus of ego and must be broken on rocks and rebuilt is pernicious, and increasingly popular due to shows produced by Tyra Banks.
As for self-promotion, it has been ever thus, and honestly I wish good writers were better at it, so that they could give hope and energy back to those of us disheartened by all the mediocre famous.
I feel like I also hear you saying that external feedback can become a problematic (sorry, I hate that word but am too tired to think of a better one) motivator, and it’s important we not lose the discipline of sharpening our own critical judgment by facing our suck.
Positive comments don’t make me complacent, I think. They are nice, though, in helping me get to sleep.
Let’s try to think of at least one author we like who wasn’t suicidally depressed, so that we may not conflate the desire to commit self-harm with seriousness regarding writing. Let’s also try not to forget how many people drop out of writing because they lack confidence– that as a “woman” in “comedy” I have seen the Dunning–Kruger effect firsthand, and suspect Jimmy is incorrect to state that bad writing stems from praise, when in most cases praise is merely the result of an inability to recognize good writing. Recognition of the good requires exposure to the good much more than it does excoriation of the bad. In my Intro to Film class the instructor ripped into every new reel with a vengeance, and none of us picked up a Bolex again. Perhaps that was for the best, or perhaps there was talent wasted because we were intimidated and defeated, rather than challenged and inspired, by the way that course was run. The idea that all young people have a surplus of ego and must be broken on rocks and rebuilt is pernicious, and increasingly popular due to shows produced by Tyra Banks.
As for self-promotion, it has been ever thus, and honestly I wish good writers were better at it, so that they could give hope and energy back to those of us disheartened by all the mediocre famous.
hi barry — a lot of what you say is true, and i guess i’m not above my indictments. thanks for pointing this out, and nice balls on that. my only defense, if there is one, is that i often cringe at the compliments i get here. good times barry.
hi barry — a lot of what you say is true, and i guess i’m not above my indictments. thanks for pointing this out, and nice balls on that. my only defense, if there is one, is that i often cringe at the compliments i get here. good times barry.
I use goodreads really just to keep track of what I’ve read each year, don’t really interact with anyone on it. Fictionaut is another deal…haven’t done anything there personally.
I use goodreads really just to keep track of what I’ve read each year, don’t really interact with anyone on it. Fictionaut is another deal…haven’t done anything there personally.
I. just can’t seem to get this right. so he’s going to repeat it over and over and over again in different ways until you think you can’t take it anymore.
much like the novel I., it seems like the only thing to do, in light of having very little of interest going on besides a lot of suffering and misery and a few sentences that make you go, oh, he’s a really good writer, this guy.
what I. should have said in the first place was that I. thought he was incredibly boring himself until I. realized that stephen dixon was more boring than he probably would ever be. and he wonders if stephen dixon googles himself.
I. just can’t seem to get this right. so he’s going to repeat it over and over and over again in different ways until you think you can’t take it anymore.
much like the novel I., it seems like the only thing to do, in light of having very little of interest going on besides a lot of suffering and misery and a few sentences that make you go, oh, he’s a really good writer, this guy.
what I. should have said in the first place was that I. thought he was incredibly boring himself until I. realized that stephen dixon was more boring than he probably would ever be. and he wonders if stephen dixon googles himself.
you dont really need a defense. thats what i mean. i happen to like your posts and i enjoy your commentary very much, you’re a smart dude.
we all have something that we rely on to make us feel good/special. make our efforts feel worthwhile. and we all enjoy getting that recognition no matter what form it comes in. i mean, yeah, the kudos and thumbs up and good job comments get old, but fuck it man. its all good.
you dont really need a defense. thats what i mean. i happen to like your posts and i enjoy your commentary very much, you’re a smart dude.
we all have something that we rely on to make us feel good/special. make our efforts feel worthwhile. and we all enjoy getting that recognition no matter what form it comes in. i mean, yeah, the kudos and thumbs up and good job comments get old, but fuck it man. its all good.
If one practices sincerity, one could perhaps come to trust the comments of others more. It’s hard, coming from such shadowgrowth, but this is how I endeavor to operate now. We are not naturally heliotaxical.
If one practices sincerity, one could perhaps come to trust the comments of others more. It’s hard, coming from such shadowgrowth, but this is how I endeavor to operate now. We are not naturally heliotaxical.
I wouldn’t call myself a writer but I’ve been known to comport every now and then, I mean, simply as a means to an end.
I wouldn’t call myself a writer but I’ve been known to comport every now and then, I mean, simply as a means to an end.
Damon? Are you related to Matt Damon?
And did you realize that you are one letter away from being a servant of Satan?
Damon? Are you related to Matt Damon?
And did you realize that you are one letter away from being a servant of Satan?
Fictionaut is the above ground, plainly obvious version of what – to me, as a relative outsider – seems to go on all the time in the lit community: back-slapping, circle jerking, frenzied mutual masturbation of the writer’s tender ego. Fictionaut has just formalised it and made it easier by allowing writers to add their own work, and then making it simple and quick for people to comment.
Maybe it’s a cultural thing – I’m a Brit, and we’re noted for our tendency to not give praise or congratulations especially easily. In many cases, you have to beat us with sticks before we’ll utter even a “Meh, yeah, it wasn’t bad, I s’pose”. So we could be a bit more generous in our comments. However, what I see a lot of the time on the lit-net (is that a word? God, I hope not) is everybody telling everybody else that everything they do is awesome. Really really awesome. And when I see it stated all the time, it completely and utterly devalues it. It means nothing any more. Just empty words. This is one of the reasons I tend to respect Jimmy’s highlighting of writers, stories, magazines more than most – because he does it so rarely that when it happens it means something, and I sit up and take notice. I didn’t know that he emails people too if he really likes something – but good that he does; for me, receiving an email from someone, in which they’ve taken the time to say that they like something I’ve written, means a lot more than a quick blog comment or mention on Twitter.
In an earlier comment – I think it was on the epic Mean Week thread from the other day – I mentioned the continual nauseating whine of lit-mag scenesters blogging (or, ugh, ‘tweeting’) the publication of every magazine going: “Awesome new issue of Lackadaisical Turtleneck just gone live!” And when they say ‘just’, they mean ‘just’ – it’s amazing how they know it’s “awesome” when it’s been online approximately three minutes. Invariably, such posts then go on to reel off a list of the person’s (a) friends, or (b) people they think they *should* be namechecking (for the sake of coolness) who are in the publication. Sometimes they might also mention the “other awesome folks” who are in the self-same magazine, but sometimes not. However, the whole enterprise comes across as having absolutely no value or weight whatsoever – especially if there are twenty, thirty, fifty, even a hundred people writing the same inane commentary on their blogs without actually having had the time to yet read the journal’s content.
I can understand the lit community wanting to support itself and big itself up; that happens in all artistic scenes that are making a stand and trying to do something different, trying to pedal their pushbikes like mad in order to keep up with the overwhelming juggernaut of the mainstream. But must our community always be so nauseating, obsequious and samey? Couldn’t it try and be a bit different in the way it not only publicises itself, but congratulates others for work well done? The next time a lit mag comes out, why not stop for a moment before writing that fawning but futile post of empty gestures, actually *read* the publication from cover to cover, and *then* mention the contributions you really enjoyed rather than just listing your mates efforts? Who knows – it might even lead to people discovering writers who are unfamiliar to them? And if you didn’t like anything about the publication, you could even …. *shudder* … say so and offer some reasons why. Wasn’t it Blake who posted here, a few weeks back (and I’m probably paraphrasing), that it’s okay not to like everything?
Or yeah, maybe I’m just living in Utopialand with my La La La hat on. I’ll go get my happy pill medication now …
Fictionaut is the above ground, plainly obvious version of what – to me, as a relative outsider – seems to go on all the time in the lit community: back-slapping, circle jerking, frenzied mutual masturbation of the writer’s tender ego. Fictionaut has just formalised it and made it easier by allowing writers to add their own work, and then making it simple and quick for people to comment.
Maybe it’s a cultural thing – I’m a Brit, and we’re noted for our tendency to not give praise or congratulations especially easily. In many cases, you have to beat us with sticks before we’ll utter even a “Meh, yeah, it wasn’t bad, I s’pose”. So we could be a bit more generous in our comments. However, what I see a lot of the time on the lit-net (is that a word? God, I hope not) is everybody telling everybody else that everything they do is awesome. Really really awesome. And when I see it stated all the time, it completely and utterly devalues it. It means nothing any more. Just empty words. This is one of the reasons I tend to respect Jimmy’s highlighting of writers, stories, magazines more than most – because he does it so rarely that when it happens it means something, and I sit up and take notice. I didn’t know that he emails people too if he really likes something – but good that he does; for me, receiving an email from someone, in which they’ve taken the time to say that they like something I’ve written, means a lot more than a quick blog comment or mention on Twitter.
In an earlier comment – I think it was on the epic Mean Week thread from the other day – I mentioned the continual nauseating whine of lit-mag scenesters blogging (or, ugh, ‘tweeting’) the publication of every magazine going: “Awesome new issue of Lackadaisical Turtleneck just gone live!” And when they say ‘just’, they mean ‘just’ – it’s amazing how they know it’s “awesome” when it’s been online approximately three minutes. Invariably, such posts then go on to reel off a list of the person’s (a) friends, or (b) people they think they *should* be namechecking (for the sake of coolness) who are in the publication. Sometimes they might also mention the “other awesome folks” who are in the self-same magazine, but sometimes not. However, the whole enterprise comes across as having absolutely no value or weight whatsoever – especially if there are twenty, thirty, fifty, even a hundred people writing the same inane commentary on their blogs without actually having had the time to yet read the journal’s content.
I can understand the lit community wanting to support itself and big itself up; that happens in all artistic scenes that are making a stand and trying to do something different, trying to pedal their pushbikes like mad in order to keep up with the overwhelming juggernaut of the mainstream. But must our community always be so nauseating, obsequious and samey? Couldn’t it try and be a bit different in the way it not only publicises itself, but congratulates others for work well done? The next time a lit mag comes out, why not stop for a moment before writing that fawning but futile post of empty gestures, actually *read* the publication from cover to cover, and *then* mention the contributions you really enjoyed rather than just listing your mates efforts? Who knows – it might even lead to people discovering writers who are unfamiliar to them? And if you didn’t like anything about the publication, you could even …. *shudder* … say so and offer some reasons why. Wasn’t it Blake who posted here, a few weeks back (and I’m probably paraphrasing), that it’s okay not to like everything?
Or yeah, maybe I’m just living in Utopialand with my La La La hat on. I’ll go get my happy pill medication now …
“But must our community always be so nauseating, obsequious and samey?”
My favorite sentence this week.
And yes, I’m aware of the irony of this post given the nature of the one it responds to.
“But must our community always be so nauseating, obsequious and samey?”
My favorite sentence this week.
And yes, I’m aware of the irony of this post given the nature of the one it responds to.
but, i feel Jimmy’s not complaining so much about compliments and congratulatories as he’s complaining about the disingeniune nature of so many of them.
for instance, not 30 minutes after i read this, some dutchnugget posted on my blog, “Very nice blog! Keep up the good blogging! I hope you can come visit my blog sometime,” and posted his blog address. it may have very well been a genuine comment, but more probably, it’s just bullshit and wanting his link out there in a comment section. if he’d written something worthwhile, maybe commented on a post or something, and then linked out to his blog, i’d say, “oh. cool. thanks,” and checked out his blog.
now, i’m going to go to his blog, and post a link to this post in his comments section.
but, i feel Jimmy’s not complaining so much about compliments and congratulatories as he’s complaining about the disingeniune nature of so many of them.
for instance, not 30 minutes after i read this, some dutchnugget posted on my blog, “Very nice blog! Keep up the good blogging! I hope you can come visit my blog sometime,” and posted his blog address. it may have very well been a genuine comment, but more probably, it’s just bullshit and wanting his link out there in a comment section. if he’d written something worthwhile, maybe commented on a post or something, and then linked out to his blog, i’d say, “oh. cool. thanks,” and checked out his blog.
now, i’m going to go to his blog, and post a link to this post in his comments section.
You are correct, in the sense I agree with you. Guilty writers, writers never satisfied beyond the 5 minutes of after-edits where you look at your creation and feel good. And then those feelings set in where you realize it all kind of sucks and you must continue on to make something which doesn’t suck, which will spark a feeling of “this is good” for longer than those five minutes. The longest that feeling lasted for me was a few weeks. And then I cried when it went away. Literally.
When I was 15 I found a website called Strangeminds.com, which, although I’ve never visited Fictionaut, sounds similar. We made accounts, posted stories/poems/non-fiction/whatever, and then if people liked/disliked it, they made comments. This was monumental in the middle stage of my writing.
Sure, I feel like I’m still in the middle stage, maybe a little further down, but damn it if sites like that aren’t just the greatest things ever. Those and MUDS, like The Legends of Terris, those text based RPG’s which are like an everyday story you write.
So if it helps them, it helps them. But the key is for them to be aware, at some point, that this small circle of people aren’t the whole world (does it matter? maybe/maybe not). It depends on what your goals are. If you wish to reach the highest amount of people, then you should not be satisfied with this small group. If you just want anyone, anyone to read and comment, then it is okay for them to be cool with it.
I mean, we all jerk our friends off a little. I try to do it less, but they’re your friends so you care. Jerking them off doesn’t mean a continuous jerk a smooth ride. You can jerk your friends off in the most violent way possible to still get that glorious payoff.
That last paragraph made me feel kind of ill….
“As for self-promotion, it has been ever thus, and honestly I wish good writers were better at it, so that they could give hope and energy back to those of us disheartened by all the mediocre famous.”
agreed. note: Whitman, Twain, etc.
You are correct, in the sense I agree with you. Guilty writers, writers never satisfied beyond the 5 minutes of after-edits where you look at your creation and feel good. And then those feelings set in where you realize it all kind of sucks and you must continue on to make something which doesn’t suck, which will spark a feeling of “this is good” for longer than those five minutes. The longest that feeling lasted for me was a few weeks. And then I cried when it went away. Literally.
When I was 15 I found a website called Strangeminds.com, which, although I’ve never visited Fictionaut, sounds similar. We made accounts, posted stories/poems/non-fiction/whatever, and then if people liked/disliked it, they made comments. This was monumental in the middle stage of my writing.
Sure, I feel like I’m still in the middle stage, maybe a little further down, but damn it if sites like that aren’t just the greatest things ever. Those and MUDS, like The Legends of Terris, those text based RPG’s which are like an everyday story you write.
So if it helps them, it helps them. But the key is for them to be aware, at some point, that this small circle of people aren’t the whole world (does it matter? maybe/maybe not). It depends on what your goals are. If you wish to reach the highest amount of people, then you should not be satisfied with this small group. If you just want anyone, anyone to read and comment, then it is okay for them to be cool with it.
I mean, we all jerk our friends off a little. I try to do it less, but they’re your friends so you care. Jerking them off doesn’t mean a continuous jerk a smooth ride. You can jerk your friends off in the most violent way possible to still get that glorious payoff.
That last paragraph made me feel kind of ill….
“As for self-promotion, it has been ever thus, and honestly I wish good writers were better at it, so that they could give hope and energy back to those of us disheartened by all the mediocre famous.”
agreed. note: Whitman, Twain, etc.
It reminds me a bit like Facebook, where it seems everyone posts positive status updates and witty responses. They seem built for positive statements primarily.
It reminds me a bit like Facebook, where it seems everyone posts positive status updates and witty responses. They seem built for positive statements primarily.
Andy, I really liked your comment on this post. Awesome stuff.
You should check out my blog. I think you’d really like it.
Cheers.
Andy, I really liked your comment on this post. Awesome stuff.
You should check out my blog. I think you’d really like it.
Cheers.
The more I look at comments with sincerity, the less I want to comment I think. It’s not the comments themselves, just the uselessness of naming something.
The more I look at comments with sincerity, the less I want to comment I think. It’s not the comments themselves, just the uselessness of naming something.
One thing I think people are missing is that there are many, many people who do not comment at all. So, while somebody may post up a story or poem or whatever on Facebook or their blog or a link to a story online or in print and get a couple of “atta boys” or “great job” how many people do you think, friends and strangers, read this bit of fiction and think to themselves “meh, it’s okay” or “wow, that wasn’t very good” but instead of SAYING that, or posting that, they just move on. They think, “Well, this wasn’t one of Richard’s better stories, so I’m just going to keep on moving, and maybe post next time.” I know I’ve done that. But I also try to encourage my peers whenever I can, and I do try to be sincere.
Also, think of all of the rejections we get. How many journals and magazines have an acceptance raet of 1% or lower? You could send a GREAT story out 10, 20 30 times and get nothing but form rejections and that doesn’t mean your story sucks. I’ve gotten as many as FIVE rejections in one day, I’ve had stories rejected 15, 20 times and then accepted later at a place I’m proud to publish. But it’s easy to lose the faith, to doubt ourselves. So while there certainly is a good amount of circle jerking going on, in the end, who really gets hurt? I mean, it might sting in the eye a bit.
As long as you don’t blow smoke 100% of the time, I think there is nothing wrong with it.
My two cents.
One thing I think people are missing is that there are many, many people who do not comment at all. So, while somebody may post up a story or poem or whatever on Facebook or their blog or a link to a story online or in print and get a couple of “atta boys” or “great job” how many people do you think, friends and strangers, read this bit of fiction and think to themselves “meh, it’s okay” or “wow, that wasn’t very good” but instead of SAYING that, or posting that, they just move on. They think, “Well, this wasn’t one of Richard’s better stories, so I’m just going to keep on moving, and maybe post next time.” I know I’ve done that. But I also try to encourage my peers whenever I can, and I do try to be sincere.
Also, think of all of the rejections we get. How many journals and magazines have an acceptance raet of 1% or lower? You could send a GREAT story out 10, 20 30 times and get nothing but form rejections and that doesn’t mean your story sucks. I’ve gotten as many as FIVE rejections in one day, I’ve had stories rejected 15, 20 times and then accepted later at a place I’m proud to publish. But it’s easy to lose the faith, to doubt ourselves. So while there certainly is a good amount of circle jerking going on, in the end, who really gets hurt? I mean, it might sting in the eye a bit.
As long as you don’t blow smoke 100% of the time, I think there is nothing wrong with it.
My two cents.
this post sucked jimmy, i hated it.
this post sucked jimmy, i hated it.
Something that’s striking in this whole conversation is that the focus is on literary sycophants, when, as an active . . . participant? at one time or another in other “art scenes-” like film & television, acting, museum/fine arts, etc- I can say that this absolutely goes on just as much within the other creative mediums. Hasn’t the dichotomy between what you could call popular and respected always been a sort of open secret in art/the arts?
It’s been my, perhaps limited, experience that most people being coddled know that they’re being coddled, know that their shit does, in fact, stink, but all the same would like to feel good about what they’ve made, thankyouverymuch. Eh, so what? So the diameter of your circle jerk is huge, and mine is small. So what? It’s just a circle jerk.
I think if it bothers you to see people barking up the wrong tree, you can either laugh, shrug it off, or you can show them something better. The latter might mean you have to self-promote.
Something that’s striking in this whole conversation is that the focus is on literary sycophants, when, as an active . . . participant? at one time or another in other “art scenes-” like film & television, acting, museum/fine arts, etc- I can say that this absolutely goes on just as much within the other creative mediums. Hasn’t the dichotomy between what you could call popular and respected always been a sort of open secret in art/the arts?
It’s been my, perhaps limited, experience that most people being coddled know that they’re being coddled, know that their shit does, in fact, stink, but all the same would like to feel good about what they’ve made, thankyouverymuch. Eh, so what? So the diameter of your circle jerk is huge, and mine is small. So what? It’s just a circle jerk.
I think if it bothers you to see people barking up the wrong tree, you can either laugh, shrug it off, or you can show them something better. The latter might mean you have to self-promote.
Then why, pray tell, do you write for a blog famous for its comment boxes?
Great post, by the way.
Then why, pray tell, do you write for a blog famous for its comment boxes?
Great post, by the way.
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