2 things i’m wondering
1. I met with a student to give advice on his MFA sample writing portfolio. Since I read these portfolios for my university and wrote one for my MFA, I felt ‘qualified,’ but with Tao Lin quotation marks. Some of the student’s poems had images and word-play. Tropes. Alliteration, at least one spondee. The first page was strong. I told him, “Good. You showed on the first page that you have read poetry and care some about words. The first page is important. Thoughts are being made.” I said, “You have images immediately. A lot of people sending in won’t have any images. They won’t get in. A lot of people like to write poetry, not poems. I mean they write about pride or love…” (trailing off. not quite sure what I meant here)
Content: The poems were about hangovers, beer, marijuana. I said, “These are sort of derivative ‘beat’ poems. That’s OK, write what you want once you’re in graduate school, but I think you should play the game a little. Get in grad school first.” I told him many readers would groan when they read poems about hangovers, beer, marijuana. “People are going to think you read some Bukowski. They’ll think you’re a type.” The phone rang 4 times and I ignored it. I said, “Do you have poems about any others things?” He did. Put some of those poems in the sample, I advised. I said again, “This isn’t a criticism of your work. Any subject is fine. Write what you want. I’m just trying to help you get into grad school.”
I pulled out two of his poems, one about marijuana and one about beer. I said, “Let me compare and contrast here. These are both cliché subjects. But most subjects are cliché. In this second poem, the beer one, you twisted the cliché, you cared about words, you have rhyme and alliteration and thoughtful enjambment. You’re doing weird things with white space. You took the ordinary and did something with it. Now this other poem, the marijuana poem, isn’t even a poem. You don’t get points for it being about marijuana. This is just a bunch of words here. You have to show that you care…not just any word. Show that you’ve read a lot of poetry. So rewrite the marijuana poem or get rid of it.”
I said, “Relax. These people are looking for potential. Show them potential.”
One of the poems was clearly in a voice and clearly homophobic. I said, “This poem might be a problem. Some people won’t get that it’s a persona, a voice.” He said, “That’s what Michael said.” (another professor down the hallway) I said, “Someone will quickly read this in your packet and won’t get it. They’ll be offended. I’m not saying it will happen, I’m saying think about it.” He said, “I might leave it out.” I said, “That’s one option. Or you could add an epigraph or other device so the reader knows it’s a voice. You could also just leave it in. It’s your call.”
His writing sample had a prose poem, alongside all the free verse. I said, “This is good for the application. You know more than one default form. A lot of people applying don’t know any formal forms. They haven’t read many poems. They don’t know the history. They write things about their life and think it’s a poem. Do you have any other forms?” He said he had haiku. I said, “Might want to throw a small sample of haiku. Not too much, but you know…”
I said, “I wish you luck.”
The student said he wanted to go to school near Brooklyn. “I’m done with the Midwest,” he said. I said, “Why not just move to Brooklyn now? Get a job and write after work.” (weirdly, i was thinking about all the HTML MFA chatter the last few days while saying this aloud) He said, “That’s my backup plan. I’m doing this first for my parents.” I said, “Do your parents ask your advice when making huge life decisions? You’re an adult now.” He said, “They paid for my college.” I said, “OK, I hear you, but go to New York, whether you get in school or not.” He nodded. “I’m going to.”
A few moments passed. I was looking for a book of French prose poets I bought cheap at Chicago AWP to show the student a point on form, but couldn’t find the damn book on my bookshelves. I kept squinting at all my shelves. It dawned on me I probably looked stupid scanning my shelves for so long, minutes dripping away, but then again maybe it showed the student that writers have a shit-load of books. Who knows? I never found the book.
I turned to the student and said, “You know, this is kinda like workshop: you can ignore all my advice. You have to have some ego, so don’t change things if you don’t want to.” He said, “OK.” He thanked me and stood to leave. He said, “Should I leave your door open?” I said, “Sure.” A rush of excitement for a moment, though I have no idea why. I blurted out, “Hey! You know Bukowski wrote a lot of poems that weren’t at all about beer.” The student didn’t say anything. I said, “Well, either way, go to New York.”
I’m wondering if any of this was good advice.
The second thing I’m wondering happened five minutes ago, right here in Muncie, Indiana. The doorbell rang. I did the thing where you freeze in place and hope it goes away, wish it never happened at all. Humans are weird. It rang again. I sat here in this chair. Everything seem transfixed, like the whole world was trapped in ice. No sound. Finally, I went to the door. No one there, but no footsteps at all in the snow. How the fuck does that happen? I was wondering.
Tags: Charles Bukowski, MFA, writing sample
This was awesome
If this student reads this account of what happened and is put off, he is a baby. The student was in no way shown in a disparaging light, and it was for a insightful story that wasn’t just superfluous gossip. If a teacher mentions conversations and sticks to those points, I don’t think he/she should be worried about it.
i wish a teacher gave me advice on my portfolio. way to be a good human, sean.
I took Neil Griffin to mean that this is a question of teacher-student confidentiality, not whether he (we’ve narrowed it down by gender as well as university…) was cast in a positive light.
I think the advice was more: “Put off school. Go live among people who live differently than you live. Go taste new things.” As a person who has spent some time in central Indiana, where Sean teaches, as well as in Brooklyn, I can say that Brooklyn is a place where people live differently than people live in central Indiana.
The advice could apply to Budapest or Port-au-Prince or Johannesburg or Singapore or Bangkok or Ulan Bator. But the student said he wanted to go to Brooklyn, and Sean said he should do it. I think it’s fine advice. The time right after college is a time when many people aren’t super-attached, don’t have big responsibilities, can live very low to the ground and still get by. What better time is there to explore a place and way of being in the world that is new to you?
And of course it will serve your writing. Some distance on your childhood place is probably necessary for a writer who doesn’t want to be limited by knowing only a certain place. William Goyen wasn’t living in rural Texas when he wrote House of Breath. He was imagining it from afar, and afar is what animated it in his imagination.
There isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. But in general, I think living somewhere different from where you’ve been living is a smart thing to encourage an aspiring writer to do.
I think the advice was more: “Put off school. Go live among people who live differently than you live. Go taste new things.” As a person who has spent some time in central Indiana, where Sean teaches, as well as in Brooklyn, I can say that Brooklyn is a place where people live differently than people live in central Indiana.
The advice could apply to Budapest or Port-au-Prince or Johannesburg or Singapore or Bangkok or Ulan Bator. But the student said he wanted to go to Brooklyn, and Sean said he should do it. I think it’s fine advice. The time right after college is a time when many people aren’t super-attached, don’t have big responsibilities, can live very low to the ground and still get by. What better time is there to explore a place and way of being in the world that is new to you?
And of course it will serve your writing. Some distance on your childhood place is probably necessary for a writer who doesn’t want to be limited by knowing only a certain place. William Goyen wasn’t living in rural Texas when he wrote House of Breath. He was imagining it from afar, and afar is what animated it in his imagination.
There isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. But in general, I think living somewhere different from where you’ve been living is a smart thing to encourage an aspiring writer to do.
in what way zzzzzippp, in what way are you amazed?
in what way zzzzzippp, in what way are you amazed?
Right, but, if his experience is rough, he should learn that on his own, right?
Who said it would?
I really didn’t like this post.
I think it was mostly the voice of the author that I didn’t like.
I especially didnt like how it was framed as ‘2 things i’m wondering’, and then at the end, the whole wondering thing came back in with the second wondering, and i just thought it was shitty writing. Like you were trying to make something pretty or cute, but really just made something stupid.
I think you gave good advice to that student, but i think you said some stupid things in this post, like I didn’t like the paragraph about the french book, and i didnt like the thing about the phone ringing four times.
I feel like this post would have been good if it were just the dialogue you posted.
I really didn’t like this post.
I think it was mostly the voice of the author that I didn’t like.
I especially didnt like how it was framed as ‘2 things i’m wondering’, and then at the end, the whole wondering thing came back in with the second wondering, and i just thought it was shitty writing. Like you were trying to make something pretty or cute, but really just made something stupid.
I think you gave good advice to that student, but i think you said some stupid things in this post, like I didn’t like the paragraph about the french book, and i didnt like the thing about the phone ringing four times.
I feel like this post would have been good if it were just the dialogue you posted.
I really didn’t like this post.
I think it was mostly the voice of the author that I didn’t like.
I especially didnt like how it was framed as ‘2 things i’m wondering’, and then at the end, the whole wondering thing came back in with the second wondering, and i just thought it was shitty writing. Like you were trying to make something pretty or cute, but really just made something stupid.
I think you gave good advice to that student, but i think you said some stupid things in this post, like I didn’t like the paragraph about the french book, and i didnt like the thing about the phone ringing four times.
I feel like this post would have been good if it were just the dialogue you posted.
I really didn’t like this post.
I think it was mostly the voice of the author that I didn’t like.
I especially didnt like how it was framed as ‘2 things i’m wondering’, and then at the end, the whole wondering thing came back in with the second wondering, and i just thought it was shitty writing. Like you were trying to make something pretty or cute, but really just made something stupid.
I think you gave good advice to that student, but i think you said some stupid things in this post, like I didn’t like the paragraph about the french book, and i didnt like the thing about the phone ringing four times.
I feel like this post would have been good if it were just the dialogue you posted.
Of course don’t remove the post. I too blog about teaching and it’s not as you or I would post compromising information about students. People need to chill about confidentiality–it’s not like we’re doctors.
muncie sucksssssss
Do people, specifically teachers who write about private conversations with students, ever worry that they will read them and feel a little put off. It is a relatively popular website, after all.
SEAN IN A WAY I AM AMAZED BY THIS POST
This was awesome
If this student reads this account of what happened and is put off, he is a baby. The student was in no way shown in a disparaging light, and it was for a insightful story that wasn’t just superfluous gossip. If a teacher mentions conversations and sticks to those points, I don’t think he/she should be worried about it.
i wish a teacher gave me advice on my portfolio. way to be a good human, sean.
I am very aware of this issue and good point. I always weigh the issue. I didn’t see anything in this honest account of what happened that in any way besmirched the student.
He’s a fine student and poet.
I don’t know if I’m allowed to comment on this or not and say something that you said to me before, Sean, but I’m doing it anyway.
1) There was this one time when you told me to do anything but stand still, and when I thought about what made me want to move, I came up with writing and that’s why I do it. So I can move.
2) I still have it IN WRITING that in the event of your death, I am become the legal owner of your autographed Bukowski poster. Does this make me a poser? Perhaps. Will I relinquish these rights? Never.
I saw that this post said “MFA” and “Brooklyn” and then I saw that this post had 50+ comments and I was like “yeah”
you’re a good teacher.
I took Neil Griffin to mean that this is a question of teacher-student confidentiality, not whether he (we’ve narrowed it down by gender as well as university…) was cast in a positive light.
Well, you have me thinking. I wasn’t concerned since I thought it was an anonymous (though obviously, yes, the student could read this blog and say, “Hey that was me”) conversation helpful to some of the issues being thrown around here lately.
I’m torn, but always think about this issue in advance. This is why I rarely post these discussions, but I thought this was neutral.
I could be wrong. I’m tempted to remove the post, but think that’s pretty wrong, too.
I’ll think on it.
Sean: I used to look at my students’ samples before writing a letter of rec for MFA programs. I used to warn them that an MFA has its real pros and cons. Yes, it’s free time to write. (Granted: they get into a program with fellowships, waivers, whatever, and they should NOT go into debt in order to get an MFA, unless they have the money to burn.) But it’s also tremendously hard on the ego. I used to tell them my horror stories about my MFA program. Then, if they’re not dissuaded, I’d look at their sample, help them find a “good fit” (sample to program and program to sample), etc. Most of my students were fiction. I suggested a varied sample (like you). Something that shows off their “range” but also their narrative strengths. I’ve had a few students go on to very good MFA programs. Inevitably, they come back and tell me: Gee, Lily, I wish I’d listened to your warnings before going, but all in all, this was a good, worthwhile experience, and I’ve really developed as a writer through it all.
So, I guess that’s something.
AND: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with writing publicly about (vaguely) an experience like discussing portfolios for MFA programs. Lord knows writers have been known to write about “real life” more explicitly than this.
The ringing could have been some bell-sounding device other than the door-bell.
Or, the door-bell’s mechanism could have been triggered by something other than the pressure of a finger, like a spasm of electricity or dislodging of a speck of dirt, a chaotic humidity gradient, or a woodpecker.
Or, the ringing could have been a Sign.
chaotic humidity gradient
WTF
how is living in Brooklyn going to help his writing?
A movie I would like to see is Sean Lovelace and deadgod smoking cigars, throwing discs at baskets, eating nachos, walking babies in strollers through Central Park, and having a conversation about anything, all in one continuous 90-minute Steadicam shot, directed by Aaron Sorkin for the first forty-five minutes and Charlie Kaufman for the last forty-five minutes.
The respect you have for your student is apparent through your post, and I didn’t mean to suggest that you, in particular, were unfair. It was more of a bigger question, because I have, over the year I’ve checked the Giant out, noticed some posters show a lack of respect to students, whom I assume are web savvy enough to find their teachers on this blog.
I get so nervous when people think of new York, specifically Brooklyn, as some sort of haven for creativity. As if you will suddenly be “found” and flourish. I have been here for three years and have seen many dreamers like your student leave penniless, disheartened, and just sick of writing. Unless you have a trust fund, finding time to write while holding up a job that will support life in NYC is no joke. New York can be stressful and tiring.
Yes, there are many things to write about here, many people who care about poetry and will challenge you. Nothing wrong with coming here if you plan it out well and can afford it. But I just wish young people would stop making pilgrimages here in hopes of curing their suburban boredom or achieve some vague idea of an artist rebirth. This city is as beautiful as it is painful and ugly. But Brooklyn will not make you a poet if you are not one already.
Good advice.
The city weeds people relentlessly.
Sheepshead Bay, Gravesend, Avenue X?
I think the advice was more: “Put off school. Go live among people who live differently than you live. Go taste new things.” As a person who has spent some time in central Indiana, where Sean teaches, as well as in Brooklyn, I can say that Brooklyn is a place where people live differently than people live in central Indiana.
The advice could apply to Budapest or Port-au-Prince or Johannesburg or Singapore or Bangkok or Ulan Bator. But the student said he wanted to go to Brooklyn, and Sean said he should do it. I think it’s fine advice. The time right after college is a time when many people aren’t super-attached, don’t have big responsibilities, can live very low to the ground and still get by. What better time is there to explore a place and way of being in the world that is new to you?
And of course it will serve your writing. Some distance on your childhood place is probably necessary for a writer who doesn’t want to be limited by knowing only a certain place. William Goyen wasn’t living in rural Texas when he wrote House of Breath. He was imagining it from afar, and afar is what animated it in his imagination.
There isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. But in general, I think living somewhere different from where you’ve been living is a smart thing to encourage an aspiring writer to do.
in what way zzzzzippp, in what way are you amazed?
Right, but, if his experience is rough, he should learn that on his own, right?
Who said it would?
Well, although anon, you made me ask his permission. Should have done that first. He was pleased with the post and said yes. But, as I said, you have me thinking. I see the larger point.
Great post, Sean.
I’m in the process of applying to MFA programs and haven’t been able to get a lot of eyes on my portfolio. Your student is lucky to have your time and thoughtful advice.
According to your own words, he met with you to talk about his writing sample. He didn’t ask your readers to talk about his writing sample. Which is what happens albeit somewhat superficially. Also: I don’t think it’s an entirely “neutral” post–it’s using this comic personal anecdote as a vehicle to talk about the silly futility of getting advice and MFA programs–pretty cynical and it may be justified, maybe not. There’s something also a bit off putting about the fact that this on one level is meant as comedy. Did you show him the post beforehand? With it being a fairly recent even, it seems you owe him that, and if you feel reluctant, it may be a sign of a wrongdoing. You say that you want to “think” about the ethical implications of the post–you needed to be sure beforehand. This is a student.
I was really bothered by this, especially coming from as engaging and talented writer as yourself.
Steve Fellner
I agree. But I also think Ocean Vuong offers an important caveat for that student (if, in fact, he finds this site and recognizes himself) and for others like him: caution – based on OV’s experience. This student (or anyone else) should go ahead and pack and go to Brooklyn, yes, or wherever he wants. But in the case of NYC in particular, it’s not a place to come to on a whim – not anymore, anyway. Used to be a writer, artist, loafer, ne’re-do-well, whatever (a young person), could do that. That’s changed.
I’m interested in the idea that New York is the place to go if you want to be a writer. I lived there myself for a number of years and I’ve found that since moving back to the Northwest, I’ve been much more productive with my writing. However I suppose I do have the benefit of having those years under my belt and you certainly get exposure to lots of publishing / book stuff while you’re there. It’s such a tough city to live in though, especially for senstitive souls which writers so often are.
I agree and emailed him with this post and offered to remove this post at any time.
He had no problem with the post.
This was my point: He could have said Kansas, Memphis, Egypt, whatever.
My point was you’re young (not that age is so relevant), if you want to move to _________, move to ________.
That was my only point.
The beating of a horrible heart!
Though I don’t agree I was being cynical. My advice was my advice. I don’t think it was futile at all. And I sure don’t think MFA programs are futile.
Any advice given should be take or leave it. I meant that when I said it.
Thanks for posting up all of this, really enlightening.
It’s not about NYC. But I do think being in a community where there is a lot of youth, or at least, a lot of artists, is a good thing. I loved living in Wicker Park, did so for about 10 years, here in Chicago, and you couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting an artist. At one time it was the third largest artistic community in the nation behind the Village and Haight. Being surrounded by people that were actively pursuing artistic endeavors was thrilling – musicians, writers, actors, painters, you name it. NYC, Chicago, SF, Austin, whatever works.
I really didn’t like this post.
I think it was mostly the voice of the author that I didn’t like.
I especially didnt like how it was framed as ‘2 things i’m wondering’, and then at the end, the whole wondering thing came back in with the second wondering, and i just thought it was shitty writing. Like you were trying to make something pretty or cute, but really just made something stupid.
I think you gave good advice to that student, but i think you said some stupid things in this post, like I didn’t like the paragraph about the french book, and i didnt like the thing about the phone ringing four times.
I feel like this post would have been good if it were just the dialogue you posted.
what the hell
is the point
of posting this
Yes. I think Kyle Minor illustrates the distinction. The point about a young person taking chances at a point in his life when he can (whether he becomes a poet or not, in this case). Which you advised on. And Ocean Vuong’s separate point about the practical considerations about moving to NYC/Brooklyn at this point in time, the ever-darkening economic realities for a person of modest means, if that’s what he is, which odds favor.
Yes, I agree that he would. But it just hurts me to know so many people are going to be in trouble from such false hopes. I’d try to prevent that as much as I can. Sure, we learn things in life from our mistakes. But wouldn’t it be better if someone told us beforehand? Wouldn’t it be better to have a “Wet Floor” sign instead of falling?
I have been extremely lucky. I attend Brooklyn College on a full undergraduate poetry scholarship. I have no family here but I live with my friend’s 84-year-old grandmother who I nurse in lieu of paying rent. I survive on the university’s award money and my meager book royalties but only because I am very cautious and frugal. I can’t tell your student how to make it here. I just know it’s not easy and I was very lucky to have the kindness of good people.
“at least one spondee” ahahahahaha
He’s found it. He gave me permission to post.
You’re fine, Sean. Mr. Fellner is not.
Who cares what you think about specific paragraphs? It is what it is.
Of course don’t remove the post. I too blog about teaching and it’s not as you or I would post compromising information about students. People need to chill about confidentiality–it’s not like we’re doctors.
muncie sucksssssss
You have been “very lucky”, Ocean, but this kind of luck is, in my small experience, pretty common: gratitudinous openness to difficulty and failure rarely (though not never) meets with real catastrophe.
The relevant “Wet Floor” sign, in my view, wouldn’t be ‘don’t follow a romantic fantasy’, but rather: Don’t Let Caution Be Your Regret.
Even if you go to a strange town, make not-much art, have a shitty lover spend all your money and leave you crusty with pus, and scoot ‘back’ whimpering – you won’t say, “I wanted to try, but – praise the gods of fortune – , I didn’t.”
That’s what Sean was telling the kid, right?
Your advice was fine, but you NEVER NEVER share this conversation on a website. You never ask the student’s permission–they’re too young to know–you just don’t do it. I’m not surprised that Lily thinks this is OK–Lily has a view of social networking that is far different than mine–probably, but maybe not exclusively, because I’m old. Not older–old. I think Lily’s writing and posts are delightful, smart–original, beautiful, but–if Lily really wants a job in academia she should stop posting here, now. The people that will decide whether you join them, whether you’re a colleague will read your posts and decide–nah. What if she writes about us? About students? About not having enough time to write her poems because she has to serve on the library review committee? Never EVER write about students.
workshop goblin leaves diaper at dry cleaner?
I am tending to agree (to your first sentence). I don’t foresee a future post in any world near this one. But I don’t see me taking this down, either. As a person blogging a long while (in other venues), I’m against erasing posts and it’s a bit much for a strike-through. Thanks for the feedback.
As to the general point, that Lily ought not post on the Internet, it seems conservative in all the wrong ways:
1. If a committee would discriminate against a writing teacher because she writes honestly and provocatively about the issues of the day in a significant public forum, what other ways will the faculty behind it make her life miserable for simply doing what writers do, which is writing honestly and provocatively about issues of the day in the most significant forums they can find?
2. I think a great portion of Lily’s appeal relative to otherwise similarly qualified candidates would be the audience, profile, and respect her participation in the Internet has brought her.
3. Even as there are committees who would exclude her for this participation (and likely hire instead a bland, unengaged person, as sometimes happens), there are other committees who would seek her out for the same reasons, and those are the places she’d have a better life as a teacher and writer, anyway.
Perhaps some water from melting snow got into the molding of your doorframe and for a moment closed the circuit of your doorbell.
Kind of interesting to think of the promise/pitfalls of Brooklyn = the promise/pitfalls of MFA in some way.
Tinnitus.
I agree with this in the context of hiring committees perhaps, but I’m always having my mind blown by the various particulars of what gets recorded and other procedural matters in this my first semester on the tenure track. I keep breezing into conversations or scenarios only to find they are far more official, etc. Everything is a big deal.
I saw that this post said “MFA” and “Brooklyn” and then I saw that this post had 50+ comments and I was like “yeah”
[This post has been forwarded to the Department Head and cc’d to the Dean, the Provost, the Bursar, the Ombudsman, the Attendance Office, the Loan Office, the Permanent Record Silo, and the Campus Tea Bag Militia for review and possible sanction(s).]
hahahahahahaha
seriously lol’d
deadgod, can you email me? I wanna have a quick chat: iamnotspikelee AT gmail dot com.
This post should also include the tag, “ding-dong ditched.”
SOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO DESCRIBE A REASON FOR AN EMOTION. SOMETHING ABOUT SEAN’S EARNESTNESS AND HIS FREEZING IN PLACE CAUSED ZZZZZIPP TO FEEL AMAZED.
HEY JAKE ARE YOU TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE SOMETHING HERE?
THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A REPLY TO “JAKE” ABOVE WHY DID DISQUS POST IT HERE OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE WRONG WHAT IS GOING ON.
i feel like your assertion of stupidity just sounds stupid i think i just didn’t like your voice it is just kind of stupid
I like this post. There is insight into the difficulty of decision, especially choices about the extension of one’s and someone elses mental/emotional/ity (the same object). The writing seems “about” this: an account of an extended position of uncertainty, despite that insistence encompasses both scenes.
Hi Horace: I said I didn’t have a problem with it. I never said that I would do it personally. If I ever write about students, it is in a very vague way (never a particular student but trends in student/student reactions) and never ever ever in a critical manner.
Hi Horace: I said I didn’t have a problem with it. I never said that I would do it personally. If I ever write about students, it is in a very vague way (never a particular student but trends in student/student reactions) and never ever ever in a critical manner.
Proton/electron fracas.
But it’s totally fine to move to New York for naive, artistic reasons and fail. I don’t regret my years of post-adolescent failing on the Lower East Side. They were and are extremely important to me.
Ocean Vuong is a hipster, of course he would advice people not to move to Brooklyn. All the hispsters think they own it or something.
Some people just want to be where they want to be.
The student advice seems very sound. I’m glad you shared. But this:
“The doorbell rang. I did the thing where you freeze in place and hope it goes away, wish it never happened at all. Humans are weird. It rang again. I sat here in this chair. Everything seem transfixed, like the whole world was trapped in ice. No sound.”
That made me so pleased because I don’t know why it happens but sometimes it just does, and I’m delighted to hear it’s a thing rather than me being random. I guess it’s when we’re immersed in our own world and outside intrudes and we’ve forgotten all about outside? Perhaps?