Random
Four bookstores in Chicago
Just returned home, having spent the past few days helping my brother move to Chicago. After we unpacked the moving truck, we hit up a few bookstores. Here’s what I thought about them:
The first place we went to was up in Wicker Park, which seems to be hipster central. Every block contained a fixie shop, a sushi restaurant, a thrift store, and a neon Pabst Blue Ribbon sign. Myopic Books, a used books spot right in the heart of it all, didn’t have anything too exciting. I saw a copy of Brian Evenson’s The Wavering Knife for $7, and also a copy of Derrida’s Dissemination for $10, both of which are good finds, but ultimately the selection struck me as blah. What I mean by that is: they had very little by way of strange or unique or hard to find weirdo shit. This was especially disheartening because the front window of the place boasted a few good looking oddities, like a first edition of Gertrude Stein’s Stanzas in Meditation, a creepy human anatomy pop-up book, an interesting Atlas printing of a surrealist novel by four lesser-known surrealists, and so on. In other words, they entice you into the place promising interesting stuff, but once you get into the stacks you find a bunch of Doris Lessing books and a signed copy of Rod McKuen’s Rusting in the Rain.
(I will say, however, across the street from Myopic Books we had tasty milkshakes at a place called Earwax Cafe.)
Next, we went to Quimby’s, which is only a few blocks from Myopic. This is a strange joint. They specialize in comic books/graphic novels and zines. They sell new stuff, not used stuff. They also have a hefty selection of literary journals and magazines along with a slim selection of indie/small press titles. My brother found a particularly odd zine composed entirely of ultra-realistic naked drawings of Seth Rogen in various sexual positions. No words, just Mr. Rogen in his birthday suit. And for the life of me, I can’t remember if he was depicted as circumcised or not. I suppose it doesn’t matter.
The thing about Quimby’s is that it carries a bunch of interesting things, especially in terms of the graphic novels/comic books — but for some reason they charge cover price for those things. This seems strange to me. I mean, why would I pay cover price for something when I could order the exact same thing off Amazon for half the price? Here’s an example: I saw this cool looking Fantagraphics book that I thought my wife would really enjoy called Castle Waiting by Linda Medley. Cover price is $29.95, which is what Quimby’s charged. Instead of buying it there, I waited until I got home and I bought it “like new” from an Amazon seller for $15.00 (including shipping).
Makes me wonder: how does a store like Quimby’s stay in business? Are there really that many people who buy zines and/or ethically disbelieve in Amazon? Speaking as someone who is relatively poor, I simply can’t afford to shop at places that charge double what Amazon charges. If, on the other hand, there was some kind of incentive to buy from Quimby’s beyond the whole “ethical value in supporting small business” angle, then I may have bought it from them. I’m looking for a two for one deal or something. Anything that makes it worth my while as a consumer. Unfortunately, anti-capitalist ethics best befit those privileged individuals who can afford to throw away $15 on principle. I’m not one of those individuals.
The next place we went to was Powell’s down in Hyde Park, down by The University of Chicago. Hands down the best of the four places we visited. They had a killer selection of used fiction and poetry, a bunch of oddities, and the prices were reasonable. I got a copy of Salvador Dali’s Hidden Faces (his only novel, which I believe is currently out of print in the US — but in print in the UK under the Peter Owen imprint) for $5. I also got a copy of Francesco Maria Guazzo’s Compendium Maleficarum (which is this badass 17th century field guide for the beginning demonologist) for $9.
More used book stores should adopt Powell’s pricing policy. Most of the fiction I looked at was $5. That price moves inventory. That price competes with the internet. That price makes me spend more money in the long run because I can spend $20 and get four books — that’s a good deal.
The last place we went to was on the U of Chicago campus, The Seminary Co-operative Bookstore.
(Well, technically there was one other used bookstore we went to called O’Gara & Wilson — which purports to be Chicago’s oldest used book store — located across the street from Powell’s — but seriously, their selection was utterly dismal, thus unworthy of sustained consideration)
The Co-op had a strong selection. All new stuff, no used stuff. Heavy on the academic front. Plenty of compelling titles, including a complete selection of The Loeb Classical Library, and other critical works you don’t often find in bookstores like a whole shelf of books on Deleuze — in addition to the large selection of work by Deleuze. This place reminded my brother & I of this great bookshop in Denver called The Tattered Cover.
All in all, Powell’s took the cake.
Oh, dear. I believe I’m going to have to get up on my soap box. Having worked in a small independent for a long time, I’m troubled by your surprise that Quimby’s was charging cover price.
How does a store like Quimby’s stay in business? Well, the simple answer is there ARE really that many people who buy zines and/or ethically disbelieve in Amazon. But there are several points to tack onto this general statement: 1) Quimby’s is the ONLY bookstore in Chicago that specializes in zines. Sure, you can find some at Women & Children First or little gallery spaces around the city, but Quimby’s is the only store to figure out a way of making zines-as-a-primary focus profitable (and I doubt they’re that profitable. I bet it’s a fight everyday for Quimby’s to stay open). 2)Maybe people could care less about Amazon, but recognize that the more people do what you did: finding a book in a small independent and then ordering if from Amazon, is exactly what’s putting these small stores out of business. Keep up with these habits and these awesome little shops where you can ‘happen upon’ unexpected finds will be gone. Spend a little more, and Quimby’s will be there the next time you want to browser leisurely, or have a half hour to kill before meeting someone for lunch, etc., etc.
I certainly understand it not making sense to pay full price when you can find it for half price, especially when times are hard. I just ask that you think about what you’re really paying for: it’s chance to browse actual objects curated by maybe two or three people (I think that’s how many people work at Quimby’s) with really unique tastes and years upon years of experience paying close attention to what’s happening with books and zines and comix, it’s a space in the community for literature to exist, it’s a place that’s selling those books for the actual price that needs to be paid for both the publisher and the store to make a profit, because 1) Amazon gets a deeper discount than a lot of smaller stores because of the bulk they deal in and 2) Amazon sells in that bulk so they can take the hit. Think about it from a small press standpoint. Do you complain about having to pay full-price when ordering a new chapbook from Black Ocean? I don’t because I know their pursuit is honorable, and I’d really like them not to disappear from sight. This might mean that I can’t buy every single release I want the second it comes out, but if that’s the price they need to charge to keep going, well, that’s what I’m willing to pay to see them put out books next year and the year after that.
Powell’s is able to offer the pricing they do on new books because of a concept called remainders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remaindered_book. This is the same way the ‘bargain’ section works at Borders and B&N and Half-Price Books (I think – I’ve never been to a Half-Price Books). Not all books can be offered at these price points. It’s a liquidation effort to keep the publishers in business instead of just throwing those books in the recycling bin because they didn’t sell. Powell’s does well with these remainders, because a lot of books that end up being remaindered are oddities: art books they printed too many copies of, chancy novels they thought they could market the right way, best-selling mysteries they mis-estimated the second print-run of, books with small and excusable flaws.
From having worked at a different Chicago Independent for several years, I know that every day is a struggle. Owners often go into personal debt to keep a store going because the community around that store is so strong, but often not mighty enough. The store I worked for relied more and more on not-for-profit fundraising surrounding our events programming. They are creative about how to keep the community thriving and growing, drawing in larger audiences. Independent bookstores generally pay 60% of the cover price of a book to put it on the shelf. If a publisher is having a sale, maybe you can slide that down to 56%. That means they’re making somewhere between 40% to 44% of the cover price of that book. Bumping the price down to half off means the bookstore would not only be paying you to buy the book, but they would not have that small margin of profit pay things like: rent, employee salary, taxes, cost of running credit cards, utilities – the normal things people have to pay to run a store.
This is just the way I think about things. I’m not terribly wealthy, but I don’t really do much volunteering or charity-work, so I tend to think of throwing the cover price at a book I’m excited about from a store I love as my act of good will. But that’s just me.
oh too bad you didn’t go to Women and Children First! very good bookshop in Andersonville that sells lots of small press books. Of all of the ones you mention the Seminary Co-op is my favorite, I think.
W&CF is indeed where I worked!
Could be wrong but I’m pretty sure Quimby’s also owns the building in which they operate.
Years ago I actually asked someone who works there how they stayed in business and that’s what she told me. Owning the space–especially if was purchased before any significant gentrification–certainly doesn’t hurt a bookstore’s chances of survival.
They’re a great store, really, and I feel bad that they’re surrounded by banks and shitty bars now. But what are you going to do.
Hey, Jac. Thanks for your thoughtful response. I hope more people will add to this conversation because I am curious how others view this phenomenon: the tension between thrift and ethics.
On the one hand, I totally sympathize with your argument about supporting independent bookstores; on the other hand, I think independent bookstores need to adopt better retail models. The internet changes the conditions of exchange in favor of the buyer rather than the seller. In other words, the onus is on the seller to convince the buyer that purchasing an item from them rather than elsewhere is not only ethically but also financially favorable. They’ve achieved the ethics angle. Now they need to figure out the financial angle.
If the advantage Quimby’s has over Amazon is that you can happen upon titles that look interesting, that’s not a very compelling argument because I can do that on Amazon. I can also do that by browsing through the Fantagraphics website.
Proletariat revolution notwithstanding, the conditions of the system are in place. This requires small businesses to compete with big businesses. It is not enough for small businesses to rely on the ethical angle. What is right and wrong, what is good vs. what is evil, these questions are untenable under late capitalism. To survive, I think small businesses need to rely less on that angle and instead spend more time innovating their retail and marketing platforms. There has got to be other ways to make independent bookstores appealing rather than the ethical angle.
Just my thoughts at the moment.
This is an interesting post. Chicago has amazing bookstores (and I love Earwax). That said, the importance of a store like Quimby’s cannot be understated. I’m all for Amazon because I live in a rural area and short of driving 180 miles to Chicago or 105 miles to Indy or 50 miles to Champaign, its the only way for me to get books. I appreciate their pricing. But I also don’t blink at Quimby’s pricing. You simply cannot compare how a tiny store like Quimby’s prices their books and zines with how Amazon or even Powell’s prices their merchandise. These are matters of scale and to compare these things makes no sense. The only way the comparison would work would be to compare pricing at Quimby’s and stores of a similar size. Consumers are going to do what they want and that’s fine but for Quimby’s to stay open and pay their employees and keep the lights on, they have no choice. They also provide a service as a community gathering place. PANK’s first reading was held at Quimby’s a few years go and they let us use the venue for free and were the first bookstore in the country to carry our magazine. These are, perhaps, sentimental things, but they do matter. They took a chance on our magazine when we were zygotes. The combination of great customer service, an eclectic and curated variety of books and zines that might not otherwise get into the world, and their function as a community gathering place for me, make the cover price absolutely worth it.
Exactly what are you heralding here? Independent shops? Or Amazon? & oh yeah … FUCK Amazon.
I don’t think browsing is the only advantage that Quimby’s has over Amazon, and I provided a list of other advantages above. Just a note though, you DID indeed go to a bookstore to browse though. You went to four of them, in fact. There’s got to be something attractive about this activity that is not satisfied or satisfied in a different way browsing online.
As far as presenting themselves as financially favorable and making themselves appealing, well I insist that at most independents you pay for what you get: the books you want, a community space, excellent personalized service from a knowledgeable staff.
bull’s-eye
also part of the reason to pay a bar $5 for maybe $2 of vodka
mom&pop vs. big box is a tough call when one is struggling
– but a bookstore is a good place to draw a bottom line
it’s complicated, though; how does buying a pre-owned book written by a living writer ‘help’ the writer? – so no more traffic in used books written by anyone still looking down at the grass? libraries only for dead writers? internet only for posthumous work?
I know what to do and how to live, but I want more stuff for me, too
I do wonder at ersatz demonology and rat-kingdom atrocity theory when the Real Thing is already so practical
Hey, Roxane.
I agree with you that the importance of a store like Quimby’s cannot be understated. But I disagree with you about the inability to compare Quimby’s to Amazon. If they are selling the same products, they are in competition. If they are in competition, then they can be compared.
Ethically, Quimby’s excels. Financially, Amazon excels. What this means, if we stop there, is that the consumer must make a choice between ethics and thrift. This is a tough choice to make.
What I’m wondering is: why can’t Quimby’s (and other independent bookstores) figure out a way to compete at the financial level? The obvious answer is that a large corporation can buy a lot more of a product at a lower cost, etc. — economics 101. But there are other ways to play the retail game. Other ways to produce incentives. Since I’m not a business person I’m not the best person to propose viable options, but it seems to me that such options could (and should) be explored. It would, of course, take some hard work and some innovation. You can’t just buy a bunch of cool books at 60% cover price, throw them on the shelf and call it good. It would require a more dynamic business model.
Again, I don’t think it’s enough to rely on ethics. In fact, I think the reason so many independent bookstores have already gone under across the US is because they assumed they could count on ethics, which has not proven to be the case.
I want to see Quimby’s succeed. I want to see all independent bookstores succeed. But it strikes me that in order for this to happen, there needs to be a change in their business approach.
This is not about ethics for me at all. I don’t reference ethics nor do I think Amazon is evil (well not entirely anyway) while Quimby’s is somehow the “right” ethical choice. This is simply about recognizing what a smaller store like Quimby’s can offer. They have found a way to succeed and that way is to charge cover price.
Glad to read that you made it to Powell’s. Last time I visited Powell’s, I bought volume II of Sean O’Casey’s letters for $2.50! Also bought a Duchamp biography for under $9.00. Great selection, excellent prices and an extremely helpful staff. And you are correct about O’Gara. Did you ask to use the creepy bathroom at Powell’s?
Haha — no, I wasn’t aware there was a creepy bathroom. I’ll have to tell my brother to check it out.
I think it’s really ignorant to think that these bookstores have not been trying to figure out a way to excel financially.
I don’t even think it’s fair to say that Quimby’s excels ethically. I’d argue that it’s something more of Quimby’s excelling artistically and creatively. One of the greatest values I get from Quimby’s is their curation. They find things they’re excited about and believe in and they promote them and share them. When I was a fourteen-year-old trying to find something to read that wasn’t hackneyed crap, this place was my salvation.
You really think that independent bookstores haven’t spent the last 25 years trying to figure out how to compete financially? That’s ridiculous. I think the ethical argument is a new one having to do with the fight against big box stores and local first initiatives. I think the stores that have been going out of business were not ‘relying on ethics.’ I think they were trying to sell as many books as they could, and when faced with competitors thousands of times larger than them who were getting better benefits, they couldn’t hack it.
“Since I’m not a business person I’m not the best person to propose viable options, but it seems to me that such options could (and should) be explored. It would, of course, take some hard work and some innovation.” I’m sorry. You just really don’t know what you’re talking about. I do not doubt for a second that every independent bookstore owner out there is trying to figure out how to stay in business. There’s an organization called IndieBound that used to be called BookSense that attempts to band together smaller member bookstores so that they have the arguing power of the larger stores and to combine these efforts to remain relevant and so that you can buy a gift certificate in one city that can be used in another. This is as close as the indies have come to being a conglomerate and I’m thankful for that. I don’t want to see a Quimby’s in every city in the country. I want to see that city’s version of what they think a bookstore should look like.
You really think that bookstore owner just throw books onto the shelf and call it a day? You’re getting more and more dismissive. Why do you bother going to bookstores at all?
I’m getting worked up.
Christopher. A quick question here. Is your book available in any independent bookstores?
most reasonable people are conflicted and at least a little hypocritical
(the vouchers for original sin are unhappily difficult to redeem)
acting on the ethics of indie bookstores is not financially favorable to the reader
their – and the reader’s – ‘independence’ inheres in ethical choice – namely, an ‘independence’ from accumulation strategy
the Good is (often) not obviously instrumentally rational, nor fiscally rational in the short term
I don’t think this occlusion is a question of the ‘tenability of ethical distinctions in capitalism’
capitalism makes, of accumulation-oriented expedience, a superordinate priority disguised as an ontic principle
– “makes” = ‘imposes’ or ‘discovers’, as one understands
Sarah, yes it is. It is also available online for whatever price you want to pay for it:
http://www.satorpress.com/
Let your ethics be your guide.
Yikes! Jac, I’m truly sorry to have made you so angry. I will bow out of this conversation now because this is way out of control for me and I don’t want to be combative with you. It is clear to me that you think what I have written is ignorant and that you think I have no idea what I’m talking about, which could very well be the case. I was just sharing some thoughts. Jeez!
Apologies, Christopher. It’s like the one thing in the world I’m really adamant about: small bookstores and small presses – and there’s so much similarity between them that I was just really surprised to see your opinions here.
I heard you insisting that there had to be a superior retail solution, but not offering up any reasonable suggestions. I think it’s dangerous to blindly place blame, and disseminate that opinion, without solutions of how the issue can be addressed.
Without a counterargument here, people could go on believing that bookstores were doing a shitty job of being what they’ve always been: a stone and mortar purveyor of books. I disagree.
That said, thanks for starting this discussion, because I really do think it takes discussion to get people thinking about the choices they make and what they value: money-wise, community-wise, literature-wise. All of it.
Years ago I found some Ursule Molinaro books at Myopic. So they at least used to have good stock.
I’m lucky to live in San Francisco, where we still have (a few) neighborhood independent bookstores. Most of them carry both new and used books, and remainders. I almost always check a real bookstore first before using Amazon.
Bill
Has Amazon or one of its resellers ever hosted a live reading in your community? A book signing? Story hour for your kids? Can you take a date there? You able to handle the inventory and fall in love with a book as a well-made object? How much does Amazon affect your local economy? It creating jobs? Contributing taxes?
Amazon sells books cheap. No doubt about it.
[support,-like-it-or-not alert]
In my view, when you refer to “[c]onsumers [doing] what they want”, you are referring to the juggling or balancing act of “ethics”.
You also refer reasonably to “perhaps sentimental things [that] do matter” – also, for me, an “ethical” reference.
Because a person senses or acts on an ethical distinction doesn’t condemn that person to mindlessly dogmatic moral Lawgiving.
Three boos for relativistic denials that one sees and does what one sees and does! Three cheers for moral intelligence!
– as, excepting moments of physical crisis, they always are
(along with appetite, perception, cognitive software, and other guides)
I am only troubled by the “conditions of the system” being deemed, in a sense, The Real World and hence the ideology that the smaller stores must cater to (or else).
Meanwhile, the “ethical” orientation is deemed an “angle”, and thus IT is the ruse, the slight of hand, the simulacra that is used to trick the “marks” (consumers).
Not that this isn’t done a lot these days. Every corporation has “Green” commercials now and whatnot.
“What is right and wrong … untenable under Late Capitalism” implies a throwing up of the hands, a sort of nihlism that is exactly what Late Capitalism breeds and uses as fuel…
However, I am also poor. If something new comes out that I absolutely NEED RIGHT NOW, I’ll probably buy it on Amazon, but I’d say that 85% of the books I buy come from used book stores. I’m just bothered by the rhetoric here, perhaps because it brings up my own guilts and transgressions against the… proletariat revolultion, as you say.
Personally I think Quimby’s was at its most “ethical” when it sold pornographic comics like “Naughty Lesbian Housewives” which dealt with a lot of tricky post-modern themes – also I bet Amazon will start hosting reading series for experimental fiction any day now and finally all the republicans I know love buying books from amazon (just sayin)
I am a bargain shopper too. I struggle all the time between big box and independent, but it is a mistake to think your dollars don’t decide things. You put the onus on the bookstore to compete with Amazon price-wise. This is an impossible position. Amazon has no brick and mortar store and all of the costs associated with same. They also have enormous buying power. Amazon can buy 5000 of a title where a small bookstore can buy 5. A publisher is always going to give Amazon a better price. If the bookstore buys the book at $24.95 and Amazon buys it at $14.95 how is the bookstore supposed to compete price-wise and still pay its bills? It’s not possible. So the onus is on the consumer. What kind of experience do you want? (and I am genuinely asking) Do you want a physical place with people who read the things you read and care about opening you to books you might never find otherwise? Or do you want an all-digital world where you never leave home and depend on a search engine to guide your reading tastes? This has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with what you want in your world. Another thing to consider is the fact that Amazon is fully invested in Kindle and if anyone is going to put the nail in the coffin of print media – it will be Amazon. Their business model depends on it.
Since I live in a small town without a real bookstore, I buy a lot of books and DVD’s from Amazon and have no ethical qualms about it. I work with Amazon to sell my own novel as a Kindle book. But when I’m lucky enough to get to a city, I visit and buy from small bookstores. I hope I can make it to Quimby’s sometime.
In small bookstores I can browse and find titles I would never find on Amazon because I wouldn’t think of looking for them. I don’t mind paying for the service of having books selected and presented to me. If money is an issue, you could purchase a couple of titles from the bookstore and look for others on Amazon, but I do think using the bookstore to browse and always going to Amazon is taking unfair advantage – like using customer service at one store to research a product then buying it somewhere else. That, for me, creates an ethical problem.
By the way, the Museum of Contempory Art in Chicago has a small but very interesting bookstore with titles I wouldn’t expect to find in a museum shop. A few years ago I found Pills-A-Go-Go: A Fiendish Investigation into Pill Marketing, Art, History, and Consumption. I bought it then and there.
Unabridged Books in Lakeview has a Dalkey section, which some people would appreciate. Selection seems kinda random though, overall, and there’s no Beckett on hand for example, or at least not the many times i’ve been there
Unabridged Books in Lakeview has a Dalkey section, which some people would appreciate. Selection seems kinda random though, overall, and there’s no Beckett on hand for example, or at least not the many times i’ve been there
I would also recommend Bookworks on Clark in the heart of Wrigleyville. Myopic is bigger and in a kewler part of town by miles, but Bookworks has a lot of random cool shit. I have found old editions of Brautigan there, they have a lot of Modernist stuff, I have seen that somewhat obscure Nathanael West book, Dream of Basil Snell or w/e, and my bro Brett was pretty horny for their random old Russian novels selection. I think I’ve found more things at Bookworks than Myopic. Myopic though has a lot of turnover so you can check back frequently and different things are there
oh and i have gotten some cheap Beckett books from there, such as How It Is
Bookworks is a great store! I love the 80’s Woody Allen vibe, and though their selection is a bit smaller than Myopic, it is very thoughtful. The prices are great too.
There is also a Powell’s in Lakeview, not far from Bookworks. The store is more quiet than the Hyde Park location, but they have a larger selection of art and architecture books in addition the the usual excellent array of fiction, poetry, and scholarly material.
last time i was in Quimby’s (four months ago?) they still sold pornographic comics and I bought 3. did they stop? that was definitely an advantage quimby’s had for me, being able to look through porno comics without having to buy them or blindly download them or get them through inter-library loan. of course, i live 60 miles from chicago so when i’m not already in chicago that advantage becomes moot.
There are still lots of porno comics. Have no fear.
Another Chicago expatriate and another former employee of a wonderful Chicago indie bookstore.
My 7 years working there were some of the best of my life. Being able to engage in a conversation with customers, see them get so excited about authors and books, pointing them out things they might otherwise not have come across, all so worth it.
I won’t take up space here piling on Amazon as I’m unlikely to convince anyone one way or the other (the literature is out there, should you be curious as to just how they can get those prices so low, and its not out of the kindness of their heart).
I sympathize with those that have to watch their bank accounts. None of us booksellers are rich, I assure you. Just know sometimes the effects of your choice in purchases are invisible. Because the paycheck I was given from working at that indie, the money provided to me by our sales and customers, I would then spend in the local bars and restaurants. The tax you paid went to schools and roads and God knows what else. Your purchases enrich a community.
points of response:
-i don’t really buy “new” books any more. unless i can get the book cheaper new than used, or if, for whatever reason, i can’t buy a used copy.
-i will agree with you regarding myopic’s selection, but i kind of assume that: since, presumably, people with interesting taste shop at myopic more than i do, it is more likely the the interesting things get snatched up quicker?
-have you ever been in any ‘real life bookstore’ ever where the cover price of a new book (that was not a best seller, I doubt you’re beating down the door to buy the latest James Patterson novel) was cheaper than the SRP? this is not exclusively a Quimby’s thing– as far as I know this is literally how every “not online” bookstore works. The kind of shit you (or most readers of this site) are going to want to be buying is not going to be cheaper than the SRP in any physical bookstore. other than upon (within a year or so of) its initial release even amazon doesn’t generally have new books priced cheaper than their SRP. you even point out you bought a “like new” copy– which I’m assuming was from amazon marketplace (and thus probably came from a 3rd party seller) & not amazon itself, and was indeed used– comparing the price of a new book to a used book is not reasonable. if quimby’s had been selling a used copy of the book (and they do sell used books, don’t they?), I imagine it actually would have been closer to $15.
-amazon market place is actually a big ol conglomeration of independent sellers searchable via the easily accessible database of amazon, which is nice. almost everything i buy i buy online & used, as i have said, and my books constantly come from different independent places. supporting used bookstores is just as important as supporting independent bookstores that traffic in ‘new’ titles, right? so amazon is actually helpful. (also, to just list a book via marketplace you do not get raped as much as being a publisher and having your items listed new on amazon)
how often do people buy things that are not used in bookstores that they’ve not heard of on the internet first? maybe i’m cynical, but i kind of doubt people are ‘discovering’ new things in bookstores any more. (i’m speaking in terms of recently released shit of course– i discovered shit in used bookstores all the time, but i have specific fetishes)
I must say as Internet-connected as I am, I discover books in stores whenever I’m in one. That’s the only reason I go to bookstores, these days, to just see what’s out there and pick up titles I otherwise wouldn’t.
actually, now that i actually think about it, when there was a weirdo remaindered books bookstore in dekalb for like 3 months i actually found cool weird shit their regularly, so i should probably reneg my question
Myopic is a high-traffic used bookstore, and their selection changes on the daily. Go back six times and see how you fare; it will probably seem just fine. Sure it’s more run-of-the-mill than fancy-schmancy-hard-to-find, but it didn’t promise to be a store of all rarities anyway.
Christopher, a good assessment of the bookstores of the city. Check out the Powell’s Lakeview location sometime. Prices are the same, it’s slightly off the beaten path, and it’s slightly more spacious. I agree that Quimby’s, where price is concerned, cannot have much long term appeal to the impoverished bibliophile, principles or no.
This is a function of the library for me. I get stuff all the time I haven’t heard of 5 minutes earlier. Do people still go to the library? I’m there a whole helluva lot more than any book market. The uni library is a lot better than the public library though.
I’m not sure the best argument for small bookstores is that they create jobs and pay taxes, seeing as the bank/restaurant/tchotchke shop that replaces them in their adorable downtown space would probably create and pay more.
In my experience they do create a lot of jobs for people with mustaches, no doubt about it.
“Quimby’s, where price is concerned, cannot have much long term appeal to the impoverished bibliophile, principles or no.”
—>http://www.quimbys.com/faq.php
“On September 15th, 1991, Steven Svymbersky, the founder of Quimby’s, opened the store in Chicago on 1328 N. Damen (at Evergreen) in Wicker Park, in a 1000 sq. ft. space…”
You underestimate the awesome delight of instant gratification. Not only do I feel a little sleazy every time I order from Amazon, but then I have to WAIT for my new book to arrive. I must prefer to walk four blocks and plunk down the cover price and start reading immediately all while experiencing the warm glow of knowing I am doing my part to keep a worthy business in business.
Have you have had a conversation with someone who works in an independent bookstore? They aren’t working there because of the stable environment. . . they work there because they love books. Often they are writers themselves and if you strike up a conversation with them about a book or ask for a recommendation, you can find yourself having one of those truly awesome connective moments with a total stranger because you were willing to pay a bit more than Amazon. And you can’t put a price on human connection or life experience, especially as a writer. Those are the kinds of things that actually fuel writing.
Finally, has Amazon figured out how you can go meet an author in person for a reading and signing yet? Yeah, that’s something else you can only do at a brick and mortar store. I recognize that Amazon in the end will probably win out. But as a reader and a writer, I really truly mourn for the world with that happens.
And just to clarify, I am a broke grad student/writer, so my ability to shop at indie bookstores has nothing to do with the amount of money I make and everything to do with prioritizing my purchases. I choose to save my small bit of disposable income for books because they are important to me and my craft and so are independent bookstores.
You underestimate the awesome delight of instant gratification. Not only do I feel a little sleazy every time I order from Amazon, but then I have to WAIT for my new book to arrive. I must prefer to walk four blocks and plunk down the cover price and start reading immediately all while experiencing the warm glow of knowing I am doing my part to keep a worthy business in business.
Have you have had a conversation with someone who works in an independent bookstore? They aren’t working there because of the stable environment. . . they work there because they love books. Often they are writers themselves and if you strike up a conversation with them about a book or ask for a recommendation, you can find yourself having one of those truly awesome connective moments with a total stranger because you were willing to pay a bit more than Amazon. And you can’t put a price on human connection or life experience, especially as a writer. Those are the kinds of things that actually fuel writing.
Finally, has Amazon figured out how you can go meet an author in person for a reading and signing yet? Yeah, that’s something else you can only do at a brick and mortar store. I recognize that Amazon in the end will probably win out. But as a reader and a writer, I really truly mourn for the world with that happens.
And just to clarify, I am a broke grad student/writer, so my ability to shop at indie bookstores has nothing to do with the amount of money I make and everything to do with prioritizing my purchases. I choose to save my small bit of disposable income for books because they are important to me and my craft and so are independent bookstores.
You underestimate the awesome delight of instant gratification. Not only do I feel a little sleazy every time I order from Amazon, but then I have to WAIT for my new book to arrive. I must prefer to walk four blocks and plunk down the cover price and start reading immediately all while experiencing the warm glow of knowing I am doing my part to keep a worthy business in business.
Have you have had a conversation with someone who works in an independent bookstore? They aren’t working there because of the stable environment. . . they work there because they love books. Often they are writers themselves and if you strike up a conversation with them about a book or ask for a recommendation, you can find yourself having one of those truly awesome connective moments with a total stranger because you were willing to pay a bit more than Amazon. And you can’t put a price on human connection or life experience, especially as a writer. Those are the kinds of things that actually fuel writing.
Finally, has Amazon figured out how you can go meet an author in person for a reading and signing yet? Yeah, that’s something else you can only do at a brick and mortar store. I recognize that Amazon in the end will probably win out. But as a reader and a writer, I really truly mourn for the world with that happens.
And just to clarify, I am a broke grad student/writer, so my ability to shop at indie bookstores has nothing to do with the amount of money I make and everything to do with prioritizing my purchases. I choose to save my small bit of disposable income for books because they are important to me and my craft and so are independent bookstores.
You underestimate the awesome delight of instant gratification. Not only do I feel a little sleazy every time I order from Amazon, but then I have to WAIT for my new book to arrive. I must prefer to walk four blocks and plunk down the cover price and start reading immediately all while experiencing the warm glow of knowing I am doing my part to keep a worthy business in business.
Have you have had a conversation with someone who works in an independent bookstore? They aren’t working there because of the stable environment. . . they work there because they love books. Often they are writers themselves and if you strike up a conversation with them about a book or ask for a recommendation, you can find yourself having one of those truly awesome connective moments with a total stranger because you were willing to pay a bit more than Amazon. And you can’t put a price on human connection or life experience, especially as a writer. Those are the kinds of things that actually fuel writing.
Finally, has Amazon figured out how you can go meet an author in person for a reading and signing yet? Yeah, that’s something else you can only do at a brick and mortar store. I recognize that Amazon in the end will probably win out. But as a reader and a writer, I really truly mourn for the world with that happens.
And just to clarify, I am a broke grad student/writer, so my ability to shop at indie bookstores has nothing to do with the amount of money I make and everything to do with prioritizing my purchases. I choose to save my small bit of disposable income for books because they are important to me and my craft and so are independent bookstores.
Yes, a lot of people still go to the library. Actually, more people go to the library now than ever before.
If you want to help get small press books into libraries, check this out: http://www.heysmallpress.org
Yes, a lot of people still go to the library. Actually, more people go to the library now than ever before.
If you want to help get small press books into libraries, check this out: http://www.heysmallpress.org
I work at a uni library, i take home 15 damn books a week
I work at a uni library, i take home 15 damn books a week
Christopher – some of the things you said pissed me off too, but I can’t stay pissed at someone who’s obviously looking at the way things are and trying to make things work.
So let’s look at the problem – a huge problem, with implications even larger. Do you think it’s about just bookstores? Did you know amazon recently bought abebooks.com – one of the best online selling venues for independents for years – another way amazon gets a cut of everything, and more power. What about how writing is published, finds readers? The gap between qualities of publishing, the literary divide between the rich and the poor? Venues of getting underdog writing out there? Amazon has a lot of power over that. Power we, the readers, have given up in our relentless pursuit of slammin’ hot deals.
How should Indies adopt better retail models?
Well: you reason since they both sell things, Quimbys and Amazon are the same. Looking at it businesswise, they should both treat you the same then. What does Quimby’s have that amazon doesn’t?
Community.
And why are they giving that shit away for free?
Think of it this way: You’re paying more for the enjoyment of browsing, the knowledge of the staff, possible dialogue, interpersonal communication, camaraderie, and mutual appreciation – a place to walk with friends and discuss things as you see them, or browse alone for as long as you want — all those personal touches that internet buying is coldly absent of.
How, then, should Indies keep up? Two words: charge entry. Problem solved, if Indies are just to be coldly up front about what they offer, like amazon is. Then they can have rock bottom book prices to compete with the standards set by cold rich folks who look at books as units to be moved, authors as nothing more than profit margins.
Indies then can – as Jac said they’d basically have to – pay you to buy the books. Or just keep selling books at cover price (and no one will buy them) acting as a glorified showroom (which bookstores are more and more shamefully used as, some people even scanning Indie’s inventories barcodes with their iphones that link them directly to that product on amazon).
So, let’s say, $5 to browse for a half hour, $10 or $15 for an event that you’d meet an author at that is now given for free. And if you want a book signed, you have to buy it in the store (a practice also shamefully not done a lot; I can’t tell you how many people come to our events with a book they got for 15% cheaper at Borders, to enjoy an intimate night with an author they admire, something Borders will never give them).
And there should be a signing fee. If we follow the online marketplace’s logic, why shouldn’t community be a commodity? People can make coffee in their houses for cheaper, but they go to coffee shops to be around people. Sure, they could buy every book they ever want online, but there is still this unshakeable urge that can easily be commoditized, the human urge to be around other humans (in this model, commodities, or why not human units). Why shouldn’t people pay for that? If you are offering space for people to interact, you are offering a product that maybe they should think about paying for.
If people won’t frequent and support these community places out of appreciation and love, hey, let’s make them pay out of wallet to have a place to commiserate outside their computer room.
A great book on this exact subject (how our culture has lowered to this mentality of the hot deal being the norm, and what that’s doing to us) is Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture, by Ellen Ruppel Shell. You can buy it at amazon for about six bucks cheaper (an act filled with giddy irony), or you could buy it from the store I work at, the Book Cellar, (or a countless number of other Independent retailers) which team up under Indiebound to be able to provide internet selling. Unfortunately we can’t afford to do it at wham-bang slam-dunkin razz-ma-tazzin sizzlin’ hot how-low-can-you-go yabba-dabba-doo discount prices.
Video stores are gone, dude. Netflix and chat rooms aren’t the same. People keep thinking like you’re thinking, book stores will be next. And I don’t think people will know what they’re missing until it’s gone.
If we keep denying people and their businesses and their writing and their book products and on and on what they are truly worth by demanding everything for as cheap as we can get it (and there will always be venders with no cares and the means to give it cheap), then we’ll keep each other poor and isolated – simply demographics. If we start acknowledging what things are worth again, then we’ll all be better off.
That’s just how I see it, though.
Christopher – some of the things you said pissed me off too, but I can’t stay pissed at someone who’s obviously looking at the way things are and trying to make things work.
So let’s look at the problem – a huge problem, with implications even larger. Do you think it’s about just bookstores? Did you know amazon recently bought abebooks.com – one of the best online selling venues for independents for years – another way amazon gets a cut of everything, and more power. What about how writing is published, finds readers? The gap between qualities of publishing, the literary divide between the rich and the poor? Venues of getting underdog writing out there? Amazon has a lot of power over that. Power we, the readers, have given up in our relentless pursuit of slammin’ hot deals.
How should Indies adopt better retail models?
Well: you reason since they both sell things, Quimbys and Amazon are the same. Looking at it businesswise, they should both treat you the same then. What does Quimby’s have that amazon doesn’t?
Community.
And why are they giving that shit away for free?
Think of it this way: You’re paying more for the enjoyment of browsing, the knowledge of the staff, possible dialogue, interpersonal communication, camaraderie, and mutual appreciation – a place to walk with friends and discuss things as you see them, or browse alone for as long as you want — all those personal touches that internet buying is coldly absent of.
How, then, should Indies keep up? Two words: charge entry. Problem solved, if Indies are just to be coldly up front about what they offer, like amazon is. Then they can have rock bottom book prices to compete with the standards set by cold rich folks who look at books as units to be moved, authors as nothing more than profit margins.
Indies then can – as Jac said they’d basically have to – pay you to buy the books. Or just keep selling books at cover price (and no one will buy them) acting as a glorified showroom (which bookstores are more and more shamefully used as, some people even scanning Indie’s inventories barcodes with their iphones that link them directly to that product on amazon).
So, let’s say, $5 to browse for a half hour, $10 or $15 for an event that you’d meet an author at that is now given for free. And if you want a book signed, you have to buy it in the store (a practice also shamefully not done a lot; I can’t tell you how many people come to our events with a book they got for 15% cheaper at Borders, to enjoy an intimate night with an author they admire, something Borders will never give them).
And there should be a signing fee. If we follow the online marketplace’s logic, why shouldn’t community be a commodity? People can make coffee in their houses for cheaper, but they go to coffee shops to be around people. Sure, they could buy every book they ever want online, but there is still this unshakeable urge that can easily be commoditized, the human urge to be around other humans (in this model, commodities, or why not human units). Why shouldn’t people pay for that? If you are offering space for people to interact, you are offering a product that maybe they should think about paying for.
If people won’t frequent and support these community places out of appreciation and love, hey, let’s make them pay out of wallet to have a place to commiserate outside their computer room.
A great book on this exact subject (how our culture has lowered to this mentality of the hot deal being the norm, and what that’s doing to us) is Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture, by Ellen Ruppel Shell. You can buy it at amazon for about six bucks cheaper (an act filled with giddy irony), or you could buy it from the store I work at, the Book Cellar, (or a countless number of other Independent retailers) which team up under Indiebound to be able to provide internet selling. Unfortunately we can’t afford to do it at wham-bang slam-dunkin razz-ma-tazzin sizzlin’ hot how-low-can-you-go yabba-dabba-doo discount prices.
Video stores are gone, dude. Netflix and chat rooms aren’t the same. People keep thinking like you’re thinking, book stores will be next. And I don’t think people will know what they’re missing until it’s gone.
If we keep denying people and their businesses and their writing and their book products and on and on what they are truly worth by demanding everything for as cheap as we can get it (and there will always be venders with no cares and the means to give it cheap), then we’ll keep each other poor and isolated – simply demographics. If we start acknowledging what things are worth again, then we’ll all be better off.
That’s just how I see it, though.
I’m sorry, Dan. I’m having a hard time making out a cogent argument in your post. The hipster joke is a zinger, though.
I’ve used the bathroom in each of these bookstores.
Dalkey section, and best glbt/queer fiction stock in the city (although women and kids has a decent one also, and myopic surprisingly had a bunch until I bought them all).
I found a shit ton of old underground and indie queer fiction there, a lot from City Lights and also from High Risk, an imprint of Serpent’s Tail that back in the day published a lot of really great transgressive stuff. Also a good selection of Gary Indiana, and every book Derek McCormack has written.
Of course I bought all these so they aren’t there anymore.
I’m here in Chicago, and lived in WP for 10 years. I LOVE both Myopic and Quimby’s and bought books there all the time.
Myopic has a lot of wild stuff, tons of beatnik, Kerouac, Burroughs, Philip K. Dick. I always peruse the anthologies and journals. I get used copies of The Paris Review for $5, found some old Other Voices that Gina Frangello edited (with Mary Gaitskill). Lots of stuff there, IMO. And as a used bookstore, the prices are pretty good.
Quimby’s is much more expensive, as it’s all typically new, but there is so much wild stuff there. I love it. Can you search the internet and maybe find it cheaper, pay for shipping, hope it shows up in good shape in a week? Sure. It’s a conscious decision to shop at these places. You get to look at great art, wild stuff you’d never find just surfing the net, all kinds of goodness.
Now that I’m in the suburbs, with few bookstores near me (like NO indies) aside from Borders or B&N, I do shop at Amazon. It is what it is.
St. Helen’s Book shop in Portland makes some good coin by selling signed copies of local authors, tons of Palahniuk, and also some Monica Drake, Chelsea Cain. That’s one idea. More and more stores are doing events and not just readings. They’re selling other things, from coffee mugs and coffee to food, crafts, and cigars. They’ll have to keep expanding, as it’s the experience that Amazon can’t touch.
Great discussion, Jac, and everyone else.
I know of a bookstore that sells weed. They’re doing fine.
Christopher, I like this post. It is really honest and refreshing. I think it sparked a good conversation, with some people pointing out shades of this situation that I hadn’t thought of, though I can’t understand all the defensiveness. The post provides valuable feedback, I would think. Christopher is saying that something is not quite working for him–which doesn’t mean the stores aren’t TRYING; that gift certificate idea sounds great, for instance–and starting a conversation about how maybe they could do things even better. Many bigger companies have to pay to get that kind of customer feedback, or harass people with comment cards.
I just read about Harvard Bookstore (not the school bookstore), an indie: they invested in a book machine that can print paperbacks to order. Within Boston, they deliver by bike the same day. That seems great to me. Of course, not every indie can afford that investment, but there must be other possibilities, which seems to be what Christopher is searching for. Not that the indies aren’t, but what can be the harm in this kind of call to action?
In many businesses, the solution is to have variable profit margins. Take a gourmet shop, for example. Some items, the store takes a loss on, like imported cheddar. Other things, like Zapp’s potato chips or inexpensive goat’s milk cheese, the store can make a 250% profit on. So it evens out. Perhaps indies could figure out the book equivalent of Zapp’s chips, or certain rare things that you can’t find on amazon. Or the bookstore could be a bar at night. At many restaurants, the food is why people go, but the liquor is what pays the bills. No restaurant makes money on food; customers wouldn’t pay that much, and in that case you actually can’t get the same food cheaper elsewhere.
Other food businesses do subscription type things–wine of the month, that kind of deal. Bookstores could do curated book-of-month, maybe even tie it to their reading series and book clubs, and lower the price because they would know how much inventory they’d need ahead of time. Retail pricing is more than just what to pay and what to charge; it’s also about managing the risk and figuring out what kind of inventory will move.
I think there are also unexploited markets. I think a lot of non-writer people with lots of money want to feel hip and would love to feel in the know about up-and-coming writers; maybe bookstores could charge for some kind of slightly fancy Author Evenings with wine and cheese, where rich people could hobnob with writers. Art galleries certainly know how to market to rich people, why not bookstores?
Why not take a few pages from amazon and formalize a system of personal recommendations? It would be so easy to keep people’s purchases on file and recommend new things to them. Charge consulting fees, perhaps, for helping to build someone’s library. Make like a yoga studio and sell discount cards — 11 books for the price of 10, that have to be bought within 3 months, say.
I want to add that the Seminary Co-op is actually run as a cooperative. You can buy three shares in the bookstore for a total of $30, which entitles you to membership discounts on all the books you purchase. If you ever move away from Chicago, you simply sell your shares back to the bookstore and get your $30 returned.
As an employee of one of the aforementioned Chicago independent bookstores, I want to say first, I completely agree with everything Jac has said. But also, I want to add that I’ve learned more about books working in bookstores probably than through any other channel, and that I’m always thrilled to share that knowledge with my customers. Of course there’s an extremely vibrant literary blog world, and I’m so happy to have found so many wonderful places to read reviews, news, opinions, etc, but it all gets centralized in the independent bookstore. And I think before launching into a critique of indies and expounding on how they can’t live up to the internet, I would recommend actually talking to some booksellers and really investigating all of the resources that bookstore have to offer that may not be immediately obvious.
I know this has been brought up, but I also really want to emphasize the extent to which independent bookstores can really work as community centers. I know most of my customers by name. Lots of them come to me and my co-workers regularly for recommendations. Some of them come just to stop by, chat, see what’s new in the store. Of course this is irrelevant if you live 50 miles from the nearest indie, but the community thing is real. It’s not just anti-Amazon propaganda.
And on thriftiness: if you live near an indie, shop regularly there, befriend your booksellers. They sometimes have advance copies that they’re willing to share.
But Christopher, if an “Indie” writer won`t pay “Indie” prices why would anyone else?
Thank you, Amy. I really appreciate your response.
The ideas you propose are exactly what I meant when I suggested that independent bookstores would benefit from reconsidering their business model.
The defensiveness others have shown is not productive, but what you’ve outlined here is VERY productive.
Something is not working for independent booksellers, as more and more of them are closing all the time. Very few are left in the US. This could be combated, I believe, if folks would let go of the ethical angle and focus time and energy on revitalizing/innovating their business models.
The argument that these small shops “help the community” or build the community or whatever isn’t sufficient. HTMLGiant builds community and helps the community and it is a virtual space, not brick and mortar space. Likewise, the argument that these shops offer a unique space for readings also fails to persuade me. Readings can happen at bars or coffeeshops just as easily. For that matter, more and more readings are happening online through U-Stream. A brick and mortar store is just not needed for community building or for readings at this historical moment.
I love the idea of the bookstore being a restaurant at night. I also love the way you brought other models into the conversation: liquor pays the bills for a restaurant the way concessions pay the bills at movie theaters and sporting events. Likewise, in my small town of Tallahassee, we still have one locally run video store that caters to arthouse and foreign interests — the way they stay in business is that they also have a huge selection of porn. Porn pays the bills so they can offer weirdo arthouse movies. This is the savvy sort of business thinking independent bookstores need to consider in order not just to scrape by, but to prosper.
Thank you, Amy. I really appreciate your response.
The ideas you propose are exactly what I meant when I suggested that independent bookstores would benefit from reconsidering their business model.
The defensiveness others have shown is not productive, but what you’ve outlined here is VERY productive.
Something is not working for independent booksellers, as more and more of them are closing all the time. Very few are left in the US. This could be combated, I believe, if folks would let go of the ethical angle and focus time and energy on revitalizing/innovating their business models.
The argument that these small shops “help the community” or build the community or whatever isn’t sufficient. HTMLGiant builds community and helps the community and it is a virtual space, not brick and mortar space. Likewise, the argument that these shops offer a unique space for readings also fails to persuade me. Readings can happen at bars or coffeeshops just as easily. For that matter, more and more readings are happening online through U-Stream. A brick and mortar store is just not needed for community building or for readings at this historical moment.
I love the idea of the bookstore being a restaurant at night. I also love the way you brought other models into the conversation: liquor pays the bills for a restaurant the way concessions pay the bills at movie theaters and sporting events. Likewise, in my small town of Tallahassee, we still have one locally run video store that caters to arthouse and foreign interests — the way they stay in business is that they also have a huge selection of porn. Porn pays the bills so they can offer weirdo arthouse movies. This is the savvy sort of business thinking independent bookstores need to consider in order not just to scrape by, but to prosper.
Christopher: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2011/apr/07/amazon-profits-small-publisher-losses
Why have books become so devalued? Christopher, you had no problem paying “cover price” for that milkshake across the street, when you could have easily purchased ice cream at the grocery store and mixed it at home for much cheaper.
I work at a independent bookstore, and this post (and subsequent comments) make me want to quit my job and kill myself. I officially give up on small-press/indie literature. Thanks, HTMLGIANT!
I suppose I have a hard time understanding how this is post started out as constructive feedback when the major complaint was that Christopher might have to pay the full price of the book he liked. I really don’t think there’s wiggle room for lowering the cost of books. I don’t think there’s any harm in the call to action to improving the business model of bookstores, but if we’re being called to action so that we can continue getting goods for less than they’re worth, a lot of these ‘improvement suggestions’ just don’t really make sense to me.
I do agree that bookstores need to be creative, and I think that the ones that are thriving are indeed being creative. And I think your ideas are super-creative, Amy, but having spent a lot of time and energy working at one of these stores, maybe I just have some inside knowledge that makes me doubt the success rate of many of them.
The Espresso Book Maker that Harvard Bookstore purchase costs something like $100K – I remember the owners of the our store looking into it. $100K is about the revenue (not profit) Women & Children First made in a standard, 3-month sales quarter that didn’t include Christmas. To make a profit a company would have to sell nearly seven thousand print-on-demand books, assuming they were in the $15 to $20 range – which we’ve heard is already too expensive. My guess is it would be years, if not decades before the machine made a profit. Maybe one of these machines in an academic town like Boston is able to make a profit, but it’s just not realistic for the vast majority of stores.
As for the idea of variable profit margins, well, we know that books are marked with a cover price by the publisher. So sure we can halve cover price on every book from a publisher (as the argument seems to be that the actual cost of book is too expensive), but make a 250% profit on what? Hand-made artist books? Tchotchkes? Well, I think most bookstores already do sell tons of greeting cards and useless shit as an add-on, and the margins are usually slightly better on that stuff, say 50% in stead of 40%. And a ton of bookstores do have bars/ cafes. It does seem to be a model that works pretty well. Converting to a bar or restaurant at night seems tricky because, well, it’s still a bookstore, you know? There are still books all over the place and people will still want help looking for books. But yeah – cafes seems to be a really viable way for stores to earn a little extra.
Just about every indie bookstore I know also has a membership. You pay $25, say, and you get 10-20% all of your purchases. Those rates improve for bookclub members. usually all of this is plastered all over the store and employees ask each customer if they’d like to join. If you don’t see or hear anything – well – agreed that store is doing a poor job of advertising.
“Retail pricing is more than just what to pay and what to charge; it’s also about managing the risk and figuring out what kind of inventory will move.” This seems common sense to me. I don’t know of a store that doesn’t think about this when placing their orders.
Maybe there are people who want to feel hip and would attend fancy author evenings. In my experience, it seems like when an author is coming through on tour, they have one night, maybe two to do a reading. By closing an author reading (and your bookstore for that mattter) to the public, it seems like a bookstore is making a very obvious statement about who should have access to literature though. That’s not a statement I’d be comfortable making.
I think the idea of a system of personal recommendations is actually a great idea. But there are a few issues even with that. 1)Most indies I know post recommendations all over the store, including notes that say things like “if you liked this, you’ll also love this” 2) Most of the staff of indies get to know they’re regular customers well and the staffs of these stores tend to be so small that they’re 80% of the time the store is open, so chances are they saw what a customer bought the last time, and can and do make recommendations regularly 3) Many customers don’t WANT records kept of what they’ve bought in any official way. But I agree you could ask people if they were open to a store tracking their purchases.
Charge consulting fees? Really? Is good old customer service dead?
I agree I love the internet, guys, but really? It’s not nice to have live people in your life to geek out with and complain with and hug and look at the face off? Bookstores are a pointed place to do that about books. I agree that you can meet at a bar, or skype, to talk about books, or listen to someone read. But I’m just not willing to give this up as a cultural space.
And all of this, why? so that we can pay less than it costs to make a book. It just seems really counter-intuitive to me. All of this brainstorming so that we can pretend that the price Amazon can offer is realistic. I think it’s disturbing that paying the actual cost of something is considered elitist now. I think it’s messed up that it is somehow preferable to give our money to a big box retailer like Amazon that’s company ethics (ooo buzz word) – moving jobs overseas for cheaper labor, not paying taxes because they ‘don’t have a brick and mortar’ shop – are a huge contributor to our having fewer dollars to spend.
In short I’m worried because everything feels real messed up consumer-wise, and I don’t like playing the game. I’m not trying to be defensive – I’m very worried about how things will continue. I’m trying to be logical and realistic based on what I know of independent bookstores in my consideration of how they can be improved.
I really sincerely appreciate this discussion. I love bookstores. It seems that most of the people commenting here do. I’m so glad about that.
you are not being “defensive”
that was, here, obviously self-descriptive
amazon’s price is not unrealistic – for retailers buying 10s of copies of the least ‘popular’ books, and 100,000s of the most
I don’t think there’s a way, strictly book v. book, for a single shop to compete or ‘to compete’ with amazon on price
and selling booze or meth or orgasms is “horizontal integration”, which is not really a “business model” for a bookseller
(though ‘creativity’ is fine and, as you say, already in effect)
the perfesser is simply wrong: choosing to buy for more or less $ is an ethical decision
the Ethical Angle can’t be defoliated from bibliohedonism, nor can the Ethical Angle be peeled off the politics in political economy
I appreciate this thorough response, though I do feel like you are shooting down some of my ideas, or saying they are obvious when they might not be to everyone; some might not work in Chicago, but maybe they would work for some bookstore elsewhere. I commented because I am so sad that so many indie bookstores are closing, and I agree with Christopher that something must be done.
Chicago seems like a really special place, book-wise, community-wise, and that’s great. But I live in a big city, too, and the indie bookstores do nothing for me or my community. They are not well-curated, the selections are really weird and lop-sided, the customer service is nil–it seems as if I’m disturbing someone’s reading time when I ask for help–and they don’t do any of the things I mentioned that you said are common sense or standard practice. They don’t post all the little recommendations you mention. Their readings are not at all my taste; the best readings in Atlanta happen at galleries and universities. In Atlanta there’s no bookstore that seems anything like “all the indies [you] know.” (There used to be, but they were pushed out of business by chains.)
So, why in the world would I pay full price there when i can always find what I want for a lower price online? In Atlanta, there’s literally no incentive, and in fact there are disincentives because it’s more time-consuming and they might not have what I want.
You write, “By closing an author reading (and your bookstore for that mattter) to the public, it seems like a bookstore is making a very obvious statement about who should have access to literature though.” This makes no sense to me. Charging money isn’t closing to the public. It is opening to the public who can pay. Like a concert. Do you believe that selling tickets to a concert is making a statement about who should have access to music, in some kind of pernicious way? In New York, readings in bars often have cover charges, or perhaps you can only come in if you buy a drink. Maybe at a bookstore, you could charge $10, $5 of which would be rebated on any books they bought and $5 to the author. That’s how many wineries do tastings–you pay for it, but you get the money back if you buy wine.
As for charging consulting fees for curating libraries, I’m talking large-scale, like putting together a collection of hundreds of volumes or more. Beyond private homes, a lot of customer-service businesses (hotels come to mind) want books that fit their image but don’t have the time to make that happen. So curating would come not just from the inventory, but sourced from elsewhere as well, including perhaps some rare or autographed things. Again, it’s not for every bookstore, but it could be a cool thing to offer in some markets.
I do think that ethics are important. I don’t like using groupon and scoutmob because it’s bad for the businesses and they are bullied and tricked by those companies. But the difference is, I can’t get elsewhere or online what I get at the restaurants where i would use the groupon–the atmosphere, the food, the service is distinct, and therefore worth it. With books, it’s harder because people go home with the same product they get online. Yes, the experience is different, but if that were enough for enough people, these places wouldn’t be closing. Convincing Christopher to pay full price isn’t going to do the job.
I hope and believe there is a workable, appealing indie bookstore of the future, in the same way that indie coffee shops are hurting Starbucks. My comments are nothing more than my speculations about what that could look like.
oh, also, about variable profits. the examples i used were extreme. but in gourmet food, it does happen that some things are sold for less than they are worth, and other things sold for more than they are worth. i used imported cheddar as an example because there is a 100% customs duty on cheddar from england. so a store ends up getting a really nice handmade one for $22/pound. Generally, you’d double that to get your retail price, but the cheese would spoil before enough people would pay $44/pound for cheddar. So you charge $22.95/pound, and you aren’t profiting on that cheese, but by stocking this cheddar everyone loves, you get the customer, who buys more than just that.
and yes, i think you can charge more for handmade books. chapbooks seem ridiculously underpriced to me as compared with, say, a painting. rare books can be marked up, too. this is how antique stores make money–they find undervalued things and make a big profit on them.
Thank you, Amy. I really think you made a lot of really awesome points. I have absolutely been responding based on the numerous Chicago bookstores I know and love and I watch working their butts off to keep it going. I think I might have been assuming that any small bookstore that’s still alive must be being similarly smart and creative, but that’s obviously not the case.
I think I agree with most of the ideas here! I know there are bookstores that require attendees to buy the book of the author reading, but that’s usually only for authors that will draw audiences so big that people will likely need to be turned away (and I also know of many bookstores that will rent out larger spaces to accomodate these crowds and be sure to make the maximum profit on book sales). My resistance on that front was more the idea of choosing a hobnob-y wine and cheese party for a steep price over a general reading where the largest cost might be to purchase the book – something much more feasible for the average reader.
I, too, hope there is a workable, more appealing bookstore of the future (though, as noted, I’m quite content).
I’m curious about the comparison to Starbucks. My feeling has always been that Starbucks popping up everywhere made it the norm for people to stop for their morning coffee, and then when people started getting into that culture, they realize there was better coffee, at more personalized spaces. So in some ways Starbucks hurt the small shops that existed at the time of their explosion in the market, but now they’ve actually increased the business for small shops in the long term. Is this how you see it? I’m trying to wrap my mind around how bookstores could figure out a similar way to benefit from the mass appeal of B&N and Amazon. I’m having trouble with the comparison, but I realize it needn’t be a one-to-one ratio, and maybe you see it differently?
Happy Saturday night!
Chris! Why didn’t you tell me you were in Chicago! And you were in my hood, Hyde Park as well. Did you see Slavoj in the co-op? He’s usually lurking around there pretty often.
I thought about getting a hold of you, Cassie, but I was only there brief briefly. Now that my brother has set up shop in downtown, I’m sure I’ll be back often. Will certainly get in touch with you next time, for sure.
Unfortunately, no Slavoj sighting. I wish, though. I would’ve asked him about Derrida’s Spectres of Marx. I often wonder what he thought about that book.
this is interesting, b/c you found the book at Quimby’s but bought it at amazon. sure you may have found it on amazon, but you didn’t…so in one respect, you “owe” Quimby’s for the privilege of browsing, for finding this book or you “stole” the idea from Quimby’s. it’s different than comparison-shopping, b/c you didn’t know what you wanted before you went to look for it.
but as you said that’s capitalism, that’s competition. so don’t hate the playa hate the game.
I guess Christopher picked up his ball and went home.
I call BS, Mr. Higgs.
Please don’t come into my community and give a small, community-minded, culturally-minded business bad press just because you didn’t find a five dollar paperback. It’s inconsiderate and kind of gross. And then when people passionately come to the defense of that business don’t backpedal and say you were just trying to start an interesting brainstorm session to help indy bookstores survive in the 21st century. That’s not what your original post was doing. And anyone who goes back and reads it can see that. You were comparing and contrasting four different bookstores in chicago and then complaining about their selection and prices.
I’m all for those of the literary web community conducting an advice session for struggling bookstores (and hopefully such advice dispensers would be smart enough to at least intuit the difference between a store like Powells and a store like Qwimby’s when visiting them… good god!), but don’t take credit for the path this discussion has taken when your only suggestion has been “I’m looking for a two for one deal or something.” I’m looking over your comments, and I just don’t see them being written by someone who cares about or believes in the importance of indy bookstores. It seems like your main goal is “how can I get my hands on dirt cheap books?”
Maybe you should blog for Wal-mart? Your main concern seems to be providing cheap prices to the consumer, because whenever someone else brings up a different consideration, you seem to dismiss it. So I’m sorry if I’m just really having a hard time believing the “aw shucks, I was just tryin’ to start a constructive discussion” defense.
I like your straightforwardness, Jamie. And I think you are right.
I won’t be ordering Christopher’s book until it goes on sale.
It’s available in a pay what you want model. You can buy it for a dollar. satorpress.com
All kidding aside, at least call MFA, soon you’ll be wont to call PHD.
First of all, Jamie, I was not trying to start a discussion.
I was sharing my thoughts.
That is all.
I never back peddled anything.
This post was not intended to start anything, let alone a conversation about how to fix independent bookstores.
I shared my reaction to some bookstores I went to in Chicago.
Some folks went bananas because I dared to buy a book from Amazon rather than Quimby’s because Amazon offered the book half priced. (Technically it was Amazon marketplace, not Amazon, so I actually bought it from a used bookseller in California.)
At any rate, I decided to respond in the same thoughtful and kind way I always approach these comment threads, and I was met with scorn.
I’m seriously dumbfounded by your reaction, and the reaction of others who share your opinion. It is, to put it bluntly, madness. Sheer madness.
The only incentives provided by independent bookstores I have seen expressed in this comment thread are along the lines of what Jac Jemc said above: “the books you want, a community space, excellent personalized service from a knowledgeable staff.” The problem is: none of those things are actually incentives!
The internet already provides all of those “incentives.” Notwithstanding used or out of print books, all books are available on the internet, and we have a community space right here which you are participating in right now by reading these words, a space filled with knowledgeable people who offer you personal service every day. Ergo, those incentives do not work as incentives. Seriously. Are those the “other considerations” to which you think I should give credence? Inconceivable! Wait, no, it is very conceivable; it is the reason why hundreds of independent bookstores across the country have closed their doors: they believed they were providing incentives, which were not really incentives!
Here’s a wake up call: if a book costs $29 at your store and $15 at another store, and you aren’t offering me any sufficient reason beyond “support independent bookstores,” then I am buying my book at the other store. The empirical evidence provided by the widespread dissolution of independent bookstores across the country attests to the fact that most other consumers agree with me.
SO…
You can either get defensive, badmouth me, call me ignorant (as Jac did), imply that I’m some crazy capitalist pig (as you did with your Wal-Mart snipe)…
OR
You (meaning independent bookstores and the advocates thereof) could change.
The burden to solve the problem is not on the consumer, it is on the bookstore. The consumer should not be bullied into wasting money because the bookstore is incapable of innovating their business model. If you can’t afford to charge $15 for that book I was able to find at a different store, then you need to figure out a way to create a comparable exchange. (Amy McDaniel has outlined some brilliant approaches to solving this dilemma above.) It is completely bogus to assume that the consumer should, out of the kindness of their heart, support your company.
Let me repeat my position: I want to see Quimby’s succeed. I want to see all independent bookstores succeed. But I also want to buy books in the most cost effective manner possible. This makes me neither ignorant nor a capitalist pig; it makes me a lover of books and a thrift-conscious shopper. (By the way, because I saved $15 by purchasing that book from Amazon marketplace rather than Quimby’s, I was able to purchase another book directly from a small press for a total price of what it would have cost to buy the one book at Quimby’s. Thus, my choice to not buy from Quimby’s has had a greater impact on the literary community at large: one purchase from a used bookstore from Amazon marketplace and one purchase directly from a small press.)
I will conclude my engagement in this thread here and now because it has given me a sour stomach.
Good day to you.
Nah, but thanks, I think I’ll still wait for the sale.
Yeah, why buy it for a buck when I’m sure I can find it for fifty cents somewhere, or will be able to at one point.
You did share your thoughts, Christopher. What you’re seeing is the responses of people who don’t agree with them.
And rightly so.
That the benefits of Chicago’s independent bookstores don’t appeal to you—a visitor with no vested interest in our community—doesn’t surprise me, but you’re dead-wrong about saying they’re not valid “incentives.”
What seems to baffle you so much are in fact very real, very market-driven incentives. Our city is littered with the 20,000 square foot carcasses of abandoned Borders and Barnes and Noble stores. You’ll pass them on your way to independent bookstores like Women and Children First, the Book Cellar, Quimby’s, 57th Street Books, Chicago Comics, and others.
Why do you think these corporate stores, with all their backing and buying power, fail while these community-minded independents survive?
Women and Children First has been in business since 1979. 57th Street Books since 1983 (its parent, the Seminary Co-Op, since 1961), Quimby’s since 1985. Chicago Comics since 1991. The Book Cellar is a newcomer. It launched in 2004, 10 years after the founding of Amazon.
We have the internet here in Chicago too. We know about Amazon and its secondary marketplaces. We may even indulge from time to time. The cost we pay for books at independent bookstores, however, is the price of supporting our independent bookstores. We don’t object to the premium. These places are valuable to us. We want to keep them around.
There’s nothing broken with the independent bookstore’s business model. At least not in Chicago. I’m sorry that your locality others like it cannot sustain its independent bookstores. Maybe your neighbors don’t care enough about books.
Mine do.
It’s OK if you’re not into our thing. You’re not from here. What do you have to gain in spending more money for something you’re going to read at home hundreds of miles away?
And it’s also OK if you’re just looking at your bottom line. If you lived here and didn’t want to support the independents, that’s fine. Discounting the value of real (as opposed to virtual) human interaction is sad and a little myopic, I think, but times are tough. I get that.
Honestly, I don’t think any of the proprietors of the independents you named in your post will begrudge your position on price, either. You’re not their customer. They’re working for the people who care about getting “the books you want, a community space, excellent personalized service from a knowledgeable staff.”
If you plan on attending AWP in Chicago this year, though, I invite you to reconsider your assessment of our bookstores. It won’t be hard. Chances are you’ll be attending or even participating in a few of the events they’ll be sponsoring.
You don’t have to buy your chapbooks, journals, comics, and books from these stores while you’re there. Most will be available online for cheaper. But as you handle the merchandise and interact with real people in real time, think about how nice it would be to have something like that where you live.
Thank you, Justyn, for your considerate response to me. I appreciate it. I will take what you say and give it serious thought. I think you make some smart and valuable points: I am not the ideal customer for those independent bookstores in Chicago, and certainly those bookstores are doing something right for the local community. How that translates to a larger community, I’m still unsure. But will think more about it. Thanks.
i generally dont like physical stores of any kind, including bookstores. like i’ll only go if i really want something right that second and i know they will have it, but im not a browser kind of person irl. i’m get-in get-out. whats really bad is the grocery store. like at check out i have to stand and wait and there’s this expectation i have to make conversation with this person scanning my tomatoes. so i bought some tomatoes, what’s it to you, shut up about it already, no im not going to use them for some elaborate recipe, im going to slice them and put them on sandwiches maybe, but more likely they’ll end up rotting in my refrigerator because i’ll end up getting take-out most of the week but im at least trying start the week off right, trying to buy my food for once, is that okay with you? im waiting for amazon grocery. amazon is awesome. i buy everything from there so i dont have to get into conversations with people.
Please. You`re kidding right?
Dewd, it’s satire.
“(Technically it was Amazon marketplace, not Amazon, so I actually bought it from a used bookseller in California.)”
Really?
That’s like ordering a veggie burger at McDonalds.
its only a little bit satire, mostly in the sense that i’ve never actually been inside an indie bookstore before. but the sentiment is true. i actually dont like stores very much, or going out to places to have to buy things and interacting with people irl in purchasing situations. im a bit of a hermit. there’s nothing like an indie bookstore around where i live anyway. theres a used bookstore i walked into once that was full of old romance paperbacks and i didnt make it three steps before about-facing. i would have to drive three hours to san francisco, so amazon makes life easy.
i dont think its bad to admit you dont care for bookstores. like why is that bad? its just not what one prefers. its like saying you dont like pizza. are writers mandated to love stores? it doesn’t imply a) i dont like books or b) i dont like community. i like reading things i read and i like drinking beers with friends. it just means i prefer to make purchasing decisions at home.
so actually its not satire, its hyperbole. ;)
I shop at Powell’s all the time, and O’Gara and Wilson and the Seminary Co-Op probably 6x/year. I feel like you’re being a bit harsh with O’Gara; it’s mustier and darker than Powell’s, but I’ve found cool, obscure things there that Powell’s didn’t have. I don’t want you turning potential customers away from O’Gara when you only stepped inside the store once! The fact that Powell’s sells remaindered books is a mixed benefit: sometimes the remainders are good, but sometimes it’s stacks of Paul Auster and Cass Sunstein. Most of the time I’m looking for an older, out of print book rather than a remaindered one. And the Seminary Co-Op is the best new-book store I’ve ever been in.
yeah, I go to Myopic at least once a week. Turnover is very fast. If I see something I want I buy it immediately, because it’ll definitely be gone the next time I’m there. I’d agree that it’s not ideal in terms of rare / “interesting” books, but it has a great community atmosphere, a poetry series, etc.
Quimby’s is wonderful, although I wish they maintained a larger back stock of comix.