March 22nd, 2010 / 4:54 pm
Random

Pimpin’

I stumbled upon the St. John’s College Reading List and I find it fascinating. Readings cover the Greeks, the Bible, and much much more. A few universities do this sort of thing–a comprehensive reading program to serve as the foundation of a student’s education. I think it’s a wonderful approach but I agonize over how you decide which books to include. What would be on your reading list?

Mud Luscious Press is having a bookmark contest. Details here.

Another year, another Orange Prize  fracas.

Frequent, lively commenter Amber Sparks has assumed the position of Fiction Editor for Emprise Review. Send her some great writing, won’t you?

Come April, Letter Machine Editions is reading manuscripts.

Offered without commentary: Robert Swartwood vs. Narrative, Part II.

I read a couple of great books this weekend and you may want to check them out—Congratulations! There’s No Last Place If Everyone is Dead by Matthew DeBenedictis (sold out, sadly) and Non/Fiction by Dan Gutstein. The former came with an odd packet of instant coffee and Yo! MTV Raps trading cards. I now know that there are trading cards for everything.

Submishmash is a great alternative to the CLMP submission manager (which is a fine product albeit a bit pricey) and its run by fine people who are very responsive to their customers. If you’re looking for a submission management option, you should check them out.

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92 Comments

  1. Mel Bosworth

      crunk

  2. Mel Bosworth

      crunk

  3. Trey

      That reading list is cool. A little heavy on philosophy, but it makes up for it by listing my favorite Faulkner, Go Down, Moses.

  4. Trey

      That reading list is cool. A little heavy on philosophy, but it makes up for it by listing my favorite Faulkner, Go Down, Moses.

  5. Amber

      That’s weird–if I made a list of the books I read in college it would be almost exactly that list. But that’s because I majored in Theatre and Philosophy and minored in English and Music. Kind of a strange list for just about anyone else. Awfully ambitious.

      Oh, and thanks for the shout-out, Roxane. Yes, please, everyone, send us your best.

  6. Amber

      That’s weird–if I made a list of the books I read in college it would be almost exactly that list. But that’s because I majored in Theatre and Philosophy and minored in English and Music. Kind of a strange list for just about anyone else. Awfully ambitious.

      Oh, and thanks for the shout-out, Roxane. Yes, please, everyone, send us your best.

  7. Alec Niedenthal

      Some strange and excellent selections on that list. Undergrads have to read every one of those books? I can’t imagine reading the Critique of Pure Reason as one of like 30 books in a year.

  8. Alec Niedenthal

      Some strange and excellent selections on that list. Undergrads have to read every one of those books? I can’t imagine reading the Critique of Pure Reason as one of like 30 books in a year.

  9. Roxane Gay

      That’s what I thought… I wouldn’t mind reading many of the texts on that list, have surprisingly read some of them. I do believe they have to read all the books on the list though I’m sure excerpts are selected for some books. I’d love to hear from a St. John’s student who has actually done this reading list.

  10. Roxane Gay

      That’s what I thought… I wouldn’t mind reading many of the texts on that list, have surprisingly read some of them. I do believe they have to read all the books on the list though I’m sure excerpts are selected for some books. I’d love to hear from a St. John’s student who has actually done this reading list.

  11. Muzzy

      The St. John’s list starts out pretty much as I expected it might. Never heard of Dedekind’s “Theory of Numbers.” But near the end, the list warps into a weird deformed version of the canon of great books. Why “Simple Heart” and not “Madame Bovary”? Where are Dickens, Joyce, Beckett, Kafka, Borges, Nabokov? Not nearly enough poetry — where’s Whitman and Dickinson? What’s with all the operas (assuming students are asked to read the libretto, not see the performance)? I agree there’s too much German philosophy. There is no such thing as Heidegger’s “Basic Writings.”

  12. Muzzy

      The St. John’s list starts out pretty much as I expected it might. Never heard of Dedekind’s “Theory of Numbers.” But near the end, the list warps into a weird deformed version of the canon of great books. Why “Simple Heart” and not “Madame Bovary”? Where are Dickens, Joyce, Beckett, Kafka, Borges, Nabokov? Not nearly enough poetry — where’s Whitman and Dickinson? What’s with all the operas (assuming students are asked to read the libretto, not see the performance)? I agree there’s too much German philosophy. There is no such thing as Heidegger’s “Basic Writings.”

  13. Alec Niedenthal

      Yeah, Basic Writings is some stupid collection of essays I think Harper Perennial put out.

  14. Alec Niedenthal

      Yeah, Basic Writings is some stupid collection of essays I think Harper Perennial put out.

  15. David

      Thanks for this, Roxane. I’ve actually saved this as it is a really useful list to work through to shore yp the foundations, I reckon. It is kind of dispiriting, though, that it doesn’t include the Arab influence on Western philosophy and literature at all, no Koran or al-Farabi, Avicenna and Averroes, for instance. And no Chinese or Indian philosophy either. It could also stand to be a little weirder and more politically amped. I’d probably include Giordano Bruno, Georges Sorel, H.P. Lovecraft, Walter Benjamin, Rosa Luxembourg and John Dewey, for that reason. I’d argue they’re all canonically viable as well as giving the canon some much needed kick.

  16. David

      Thanks for this, Roxane. I’ve actually saved this as it is a really useful list to work through to shore yp the foundations, I reckon. It is kind of dispiriting, though, that it doesn’t include the Arab influence on Western philosophy and literature at all, no Koran or al-Farabi, Avicenna and Averroes, for instance. And no Chinese or Indian philosophy either. It could also stand to be a little weirder and more politically amped. I’d probably include Giordano Bruno, Georges Sorel, H.P. Lovecraft, Walter Benjamin, Rosa Luxembourg and John Dewey, for that reason. I’d argue they’re all canonically viable as well as giving the canon some much needed kick.

  17. Roxane Gay

      There are indeed some glaring omissions BUT I will say that it is so hard to create these kinds of canonical reading programs. There will always be omissions so I chose to focus on the positive stuff. One of these days though, I want to write a post about some of the texts that are all too often omitted from these kinds of lists.

  18. Roxane Gay

      There are indeed some glaring omissions BUT I will say that it is so hard to create these kinds of canonical reading programs. There will always be omissions so I chose to focus on the positive stuff. One of these days though, I want to write a post about some of the texts that are all too often omitted from these kinds of lists.

  19. Trey

      I would be interested to see a list that HTMLG contributors and visitors might put together similar to this list, sort of like you’ve started doing, David (and Muzzy above you), with additions to compensate for St. John’s list’s weaknesses, omissions etc. Although to be honest I’m interested in it because it would serve as a sort of cheat sheet to prevent me from having to do my own wide reading and exploration.

  20. Trey

      I would be interested to see a list that HTMLG contributors and visitors might put together similar to this list, sort of like you’ve started doing, David (and Muzzy above you), with additions to compensate for St. John’s list’s weaknesses, omissions etc. Although to be honest I’m interested in it because it would serve as a sort of cheat sheet to prevent me from having to do my own wide reading and exploration.

  21. Trey

      oops, see I cross-posted with Roxane

  22. mike

      The intern at my work is going to go to St. John’s. I am envious.

  23. Trey

      oops, see I cross-posted with Roxane

  24. mike

      The intern at my work is going to go to St. John’s. I am envious.

  25. Stefan

      Basic Writings is like a Portable Heidegger. A decent primer I’d say. Where did you start with H, Alec?

  26. Stefan

      Basic Writings is like a Portable Heidegger. A decent primer I’d say. Where did you start with H, Alec?

  27. ZZZZIPP

      THE 1001 NIGHTS SHOULD BE ON THAT LIST

      BORGES SHOULD BE ON THAT LIST

      ZZZZIPP WISHES HE KNEW THE POSTED LIST INTIMATELY. HE ALSO WISHES THE POSTED LIST WAS AS ACCESSIBLE AS THE PHOTONIAN FORM IN HIS MIND-PACKETS

  28. ZZZZIPP

      THE 1001 NIGHTS SHOULD BE ON THAT LIST

      BORGES SHOULD BE ON THAT LIST

      ZZZZIPP WISHES HE KNEW THE POSTED LIST INTIMATELY. HE ALSO WISHES THE POSTED LIST WAS AS ACCESSIBLE AS THE PHOTONIAN FORM IN HIS MIND-PACKETS

  29. Roxane Gay

      We’re thinking alike, is all.

  30. Roxane Gay

      We’re thinking alike, is all.

  31. Alec Niedenthal

      I think I started Heidegger with Poetry, Language, Thought, which is a great introduction. I’m still in the process of being introduced, though.

  32. Alec Niedenthal

      I think I started Heidegger with Poetry, Language, Thought, which is a great introduction. I’m still in the process of being introduced, though.

  33. Alec Niedenthal

      Good idea. The anti-canon. Is there any way to avoid canonizing the anti-canon?

  34. Alec Niedenthal

      Good idea. The anti-canon. Is there any way to avoid canonizing the anti-canon?

  35. ZZZZIPP

      NO!

  36. ZZZZIPP

      NO!

  37. christian

      muzzy, a lot of the more recent stuff you mention is offered in seminars that aren’t part of the common curriculum, at least it was when i considered going there. i think they also offered non-western stuff. but the core is in the “great books” or western canonical tradition.

  38. christian

      muzzy, a lot of the more recent stuff you mention is offered in seminars that aren’t part of the common curriculum, at least it was when i considered going there. i think they also offered non-western stuff. but the core is in the “great books” or western canonical tradition.

  39. Lincoln

      Too much German philosophy? The Germans and the French are the only post-Roman philosophers worth reading, a handful of exceptions like Kierkegaard aside.

  40. Lincoln

      Too much German philosophy? The Germans and the French are the only post-Roman philosophers worth reading, a handful of exceptions like Kierkegaard aside.

  41. Lincoln

      The obvious thing to do is call for more inclusion and a broader reach for any kind of reading list. I honestly wonder if that’s the best course though. The scatter-shot approach to teaching literature of philosophy often kind of leaves you with no real knowledge of anything, just a kind of cursory impression of everything. I learned more from my author specific classes in college, where we really studied one person, than my general surveys.

      So I’m into the idea of really learning the greeks, romans and main continental thinkers.

      Also, doesn’t St. John’s require you to learn greek your first two years and then german or french your second two? I think that’s part of the reason for the narrowness of the list.

  42. Lincoln

      The obvious thing to do is call for more inclusion and a broader reach for any kind of reading list. I honestly wonder if that’s the best course though. The scatter-shot approach to teaching literature of philosophy often kind of leaves you with no real knowledge of anything, just a kind of cursory impression of everything. I learned more from my author specific classes in college, where we really studied one person, than my general surveys.

      So I’m into the idea of really learning the greeks, romans and main continental thinkers.

      Also, doesn’t St. John’s require you to learn greek your first two years and then german or french your second two? I think that’s part of the reason for the narrowness of the list.

  43. alan

      I went to a school that has a required program structured around a list of “great books.” The plus side is it’s useful to have a familiarity with those books. The negative side is there isn’t time to put them in any kind of context except the mostly artificial context of each other, so the discussions were necessarily shallow and tendentious.

  44. alan

      I went to a school that has a required program structured around a list of “great books.” The plus side is it’s useful to have a familiarity with those books. The negative side is there isn’t time to put them in any kind of context except the mostly artificial context of each other, so the discussions were necessarily shallow and tendentious.

  45. Tim Ramick

      I have an M.A. from St. John’s College. The Masters degree—in either the Eastern or Western traditions (I did the Western)—is a condensed and necessarily watered-down version of the undergraduate program (language and math requirements are significantly lessened and music is eliminated altogether).

      What is missing from the reading list posted is something called Preceptorials (what might be considered electives at most colleges/universities). It’s in the precepts where more modern writers/philosophers are read and discussed. One of my precepts was on memory (and included Proust, Bergson and Faulkner). Another combined selections from Borges, Jung and Kafka. Another was just on Wittgenstein (Blue and Brown books). My last one was on Stein (Making of Americans), Joyce (Ulysses) and Beckett (Trilogy).

      I don’t remember any of the discussions being remotely shallow or tendentious (as alan says he experienced in a different “great books” situation), but collective meandering was obviously a characteristic of some of the classes. A classic seminar had two tutors (one at either end of the table) and twenty students. The two tutors alternated asking opening questions based upon the readings and a two-hour non-stop discussion ensued. The tutors’ primary responsibility was to keep the discussion from bogging down or wandering too far off into the woods or from being dominated by any one or two participants. Secondary sources were (for the most part) taboo. Not surprisingly, for better or worse, the discussions often continued in the student lounge (without the tutors’ guidance) long after the seminar was done.

      The reading list is periodically reevaluated and updated.

      The whole experience was a privilege. The amount of nightly reading fell somewhere between oppressive and burdensome. The library was astonishing. But creativity wasn’t a prominent force (despite the wealth of articulation and subtlety of thought).

      Still, I’d recommend it to anyone who wishes (to be pushed) to shore up gaps in his/her reading and who enjoys a collaborative semi-Socratic method of learning and who wishes he/she had gone to St. John’s as an undergraduate.

      Apologies for the long comment.

  46. Tim Ramick

      I have an M.A. from St. John’s College. The Masters degree—in either the Eastern or Western traditions (I did the Western)—is a condensed and necessarily watered-down version of the undergraduate program (language and math requirements are significantly lessened and music is eliminated altogether).

      What is missing from the reading list posted is something called Preceptorials (what might be considered electives at most colleges/universities). It’s in the precepts where more modern writers/philosophers are read and discussed. One of my precepts was on memory (and included Proust, Bergson and Faulkner). Another combined selections from Borges, Jung and Kafka. Another was just on Wittgenstein (Blue and Brown books). My last one was on Stein (Making of Americans), Joyce (Ulysses) and Beckett (Trilogy).

      I don’t remember any of the discussions being remotely shallow or tendentious (as alan says he experienced in a different “great books” situation), but collective meandering was obviously a characteristic of some of the classes. A classic seminar had two tutors (one at either end of the table) and twenty students. The two tutors alternated asking opening questions based upon the readings and a two-hour non-stop discussion ensued. The tutors’ primary responsibility was to keep the discussion from bogging down or wandering too far off into the woods or from being dominated by any one or two participants. Secondary sources were (for the most part) taboo. Not surprisingly, for better or worse, the discussions often continued in the student lounge (without the tutors’ guidance) long after the seminar was done.

      The reading list is periodically reevaluated and updated.

      The whole experience was a privilege. The amount of nightly reading fell somewhere between oppressive and burdensome. The library was astonishing. But creativity wasn’t a prominent force (despite the wealth of articulation and subtlety of thought).

      Still, I’d recommend it to anyone who wishes (to be pushed) to shore up gaps in his/her reading and who enjoys a collaborative semi-Socratic method of learning and who wishes he/she had gone to St. John’s as an undergraduate.

      Apologies for the long comment.

  47. anon

      what is the point of an MA

      where am i

  48. anon

      what is the point of an MA

      where am i

  49. Tim Ramick

      No point. The degree is useless. The reading is worthwhile. The community is a bonus. If you can get yourself to do the reading on your own (and you feel no need to exchange ideas with others)—then by all means do it on your own.

  50. Tim Ramick

      No point. The degree is useless. The reading is worthwhile. The community is a bonus. If you can get yourself to do the reading on your own (and you feel no need to exchange ideas with others)—then by all means do it on your own.

  51. Trey

      Useless? But now you are an official Master! You could legitimately have people refer to you as Master Ramick. Master Tim if you are friends.

  52. Trey

      Useless? But now you are an official Master! You could legitimately have people refer to you as Master Ramick. Master Tim if you are friends.

  53. Tim Ramick

      That never occurred to me. I’m just not as clever as you are, Trey.

  54. Tim Ramick

      That never occurred to me. I’m just not as clever as you are, Trey.

  55. Trey

      You’re too kind.

  56. Tim Ramick

      Which also goes to show that whatever amount of reading I’ve done I’m still kind of an idiot.

  57. Trey

      You’re too kind.

  58. Tim Ramick

      Which also goes to show that whatever amount of reading I’ve done I’m still kind of an idiot.

  59. Tim Ramick

      Trey—I just wanted to convey some information about a place of learning that matters to me, as a response to Roxane and others. I didn’t mean to come across as some sort of stuffed-shirt. I’m sorry. Why so contentious?

  60. Tim Ramick

      Trey—I just wanted to convey some information about a place of learning that matters to me, as a response to Roxane and others. I didn’t mean to come across as some sort of stuffed-shirt. I’m sorry. Why so contentious?

  61. Trey

      Oh Tim, no! I was kidding around, like, childishly. I’m glad you posted. I’m not glad you think I was being contentious. It’s just early in the morning and I was making bad jokes?

  62. Trey

      Oh Tim, no! I was kidding around, like, childishly. I’m glad you posted. I’m not glad you think I was being contentious. It’s just early in the morning and I was making bad jokes?

  63. Tim Ramick

      Me, too. Insomnia. Quick-trigger.

      I shouldn’t have said the degree is useless (obviously, it could be used as a stepping-stone toward a PhD, for someone wanting to take that path). I should have said the degree didn’t (doesn’t) matter to me. The readings (and discussions) were what counted.

  64. Tim Ramick

      Me, too. Insomnia. Quick-trigger.

      I shouldn’t have said the degree is useless (obviously, it could be used as a stepping-stone toward a PhD, for someone wanting to take that path). I should have said the degree didn’t (doesn’t) matter to me. The readings (and discussions) were what counted.

  65. Tim Ramick

      Damn. This should be up under Trey’s “early in the morning” comment.

  66. Tim Ramick

      Damn. This should be up under Trey’s “early in the morning” comment.

  67. dave e

      Trey, I don’t believe you. I think you were being rude to Tim.

      Wait, are you Trey Styles from Boyz n the Hood?

  68. dave e

      Trey, I don’t believe you. I think you were being rude to Tim.

      Wait, are you Trey Styles from Boyz n the Hood?

  69. dave e

      But then the world never would have witnessed my topical John Singleton shout

  70. dave e

      But then the world never would have witnessed my topical John Singleton shout

  71. Lily Hoang

      me too. and i’d echo alec that it’s a great way to be introduced to H.

  72. Lily Hoang

      me too. and i’d echo alec that it’s a great way to be introduced to H.

  73. dave e

      I wish I’d been introduced that way to H and not as a kid out on the street corner

  74. dave e

      I wish I’d been introduced that way to H and not as a kid out on the street corner

  75. MoGa

      I was supposed to go to St. John’s in Santa Fe, but I didn’t.

      : (

  76. MoGa

      I was supposed to go to St. John’s in Santa Fe, but I didn’t.

      : (

  77. Trey

      I am Trey Styles. I am not Trey Styles.

  78. Trey

      I am Trey Styles. I am not Trey Styles.

  79. Trey

      see what I did there?

  80. Trey

      see what I did there?

  81. Ben White

      Submishmash is great. Most mags with any volume of subs should probably be using it.

  82. Ben White

      Submishmash is great. Most mags with any volume of subs should probably be using it.

  83. Muzzy

      Okay, that thing I said about Heideggar’s “Basic Writings” was meant as a joke, people. As in, Heidegger never wrote anything that was basic, i.e. simple. Criminy.

      Lincoln – my “too much” critique wasn’t about the number of Germans. It was about the volume of philosophy (which, as you rightly mention, just happens to be largely of Germanic origin).

      Trey – we already have lists like this. See the appendix to Bloom’s “Western Canon” (one of my faves, though I read he’s since rejected it). Pretty much any edition of a Norton anthology of World Lit. I think Harvard used to publish a complete set of what they called their “Great Books Series.” And there’s at least a few books out there that claim to be the reading list of a lifetime, that kind of thing.

  84. Muzzy

      Okay, that thing I said about Heideggar’s “Basic Writings” was meant as a joke, people. As in, Heidegger never wrote anything that was basic, i.e. simple. Criminy.

      Lincoln – my “too much” critique wasn’t about the number of Germans. It was about the volume of philosophy (which, as you rightly mention, just happens to be largely of Germanic origin).

      Trey – we already have lists like this. See the appendix to Bloom’s “Western Canon” (one of my faves, though I read he’s since rejected it). Pretty much any edition of a Norton anthology of World Lit. I think Harvard used to publish a complete set of what they called their “Great Books Series.” And there’s at least a few books out there that claim to be the reading list of a lifetime, that kind of thing.

  85. Steven Pine

      I am a St. John’s College Santa Fe undergraduate having earned my BA in 2007. After a few facts I am going to attempt an immersive description of what it is to spend four years under the program. This will be a long comment. (disclaimer, I’am tipsy and sleepy, it is 10:25 pm EST)

      The College is a small redoubt of about 450 students, the typical freshmen class has around 120 – 140 students. With the rare exception, all Freshmen are required to live on campus which is divided between ‘uppers’ and ‘lowers’ with the mess hall and most class rooms in between, additional housing is further up the hill: ‘suites’ and ‘apartments’ (apartments only for seniors / married couples(rare)).

      Santa Fe itself is Beautiful, 7000 ft above sea-level, it is the political capital of New Mexico, an otherwise wretchedly poor state, and has the dubious distinction of being one of man’s longest-living-continuously settlements. There is a reason many artists, particularly painters and photographers, have emigrated here: the light is unique, ethereal, it can seem like you’re at the tip of the vast dome of the egg, like the top of your head is off and gravity has been reversed, there’s a purity here that those who are habituated take for granted and enjoy the most, you have to be here to believe it, etc. Santa Fe also is home to all four seasons, seasons mild and obvious.

      As an entering Freshmen (everyone enters as a Freshmen, I know of no exemptions) there is a week of introduction and pretend where you attend a ‘mock’ seminar on Plato’s Meno hosted by upper classmen(Jr’s/Senior) and a tutor. Advice is given, “save your quarters for laundry, you can never have enjoy quarters”, and reflection is had, “If I could go back 2 years and tell myself anything, study more Greek, and don’t worry, you’ll survive (he was an ass)”.

      The way every class is run is important: the assignment will be to read a text, you start with the definitions of Euclid’s Elements for Math, an Anny Dillard(I recall?) essay of all things for science, the first chapter of lushwnig (read Greek alphabet and nouns of being) for language, and the first 3 or 4 books of the Iliad. The ‘tutor’ asks a question, “What is a point?”, “What does the author mean when she says ‘seeing…’, “can anyone recite the alphabet, yeah? Let’s conjugate the verb of be”, “This is my fourth time now beginning the opening question of freshmen seminar and each time I am interested in a different thing but this time I’ve been struck by the beginning, ‘O’ Sing Muse the anger of Achilles’, this rage of his, what is it, why does Homer begin here? I know we can’t answer this last question until we’ve read more, but this idea of the rage of the soldier, the best soldier, I really want to investigate this”.

      Seminar is run by two tutors and has around 20 students, tutorials (math, science, language) is run by one tutor with between 12 (or less) and 18, and the opening question can range from 5 seconds to twenty minutes but typically takes a minute or, at most, two.

      Freshmen year I never spoke first, I kept telling myself I was there to listen, and it often was the second hour of seminar that I piped up. I sometimes wondered if I were a parrot. After class there was either another class or lunch depending on your schedule, and everyone had a ‘core group’ which were 3 or 4 other students with the exact same schedule. Something that might be missing so far is that every freshmen had the same classes — there is no choice — it only depended on what time and what tutor. After Lunch either you had another class or you had the easy day where you could study instead. I spent, without exaggeration, about three hours/twenty a week on Greek, and I was a subpar student in language class.

      Math class might best demonstrate the culture. “Mr. Pine[everyone is referred to by their last name], would you like to demonstrate book two, proposition 6 for the class…” typically we were aware of what material was expected and tried to memorize the propositions. When called a student would go up before the chalk board and recite the text while drawing the appropriate diagrams, the rest would follow along with the text, many students had their book closed(half closed) eagerly watching like vultures for any mistakes (or busily cramming for the next prop). After the demonstration questions would be asked, defended, answered, typically in math there wasn’t much to say after the terms had been agreed upon but occasionally the proposition would offer itself unto a deeper inquiry (3:16) or another reprisal of Euclid’s definitions or axioms (“what is the difference?”) perhaps you’re beginning to see what this is.

      After class, on the way to lunch (or/after dinner) with your core group or with the friend(s) you shared one, two, three (0r none) classes with yet certainly shared material with, “oh you’re discussing book 5, we’re still on book 4, What do you think of tomorrow’s reading, of {the ending of the Iliad} the funeral of Hector? What? I just got over Zeus crying tears of blood for his son Sarpedon, don’t ruin this for me”. To think Incestuous is like saying color when you mean mauve with a touch of black.

      Students eat, breath, read, talk, sleep, think the text. It is brutal to say Hector is afraid of the Gods and have someone else quote Homer saying how beloved and favored he is. But the best students wouldn’t focus on the mistakes but on understanding the different opinions: what was meant when Ms. Hannrahan agreed emphatically that Hector loved his city before his brother, his cursed company/choices or Mr Wolfiwitz who disagreed, suggesting Hector has too lax a word for his brother and wife-in-law and could not make the necessary/difficult choices required by a noble(good?) leader.

      All this isn’t to ignore that sophomores/juniors/seniors weren’t around for freshmen to engage, but each had their own excitements from the program which crams thousands of years of Western knowledge(wisdom?) into four years for a post-modern generation. Seniors would engage the Freshmen, earnestly questioning their virgin interpretations of Plato or Aristotle as they struggled through Heidegger or their final papers. Freshmen and Sophomores shared an inclination/sympathy which was divided next year by the encounter of the Enlightenment, the beginning of Junior year. Juniors are typically the forgotten of the campus, bouvicating in the quiet corners puzzling themselves through Newton, Kant, and Faraday.

      In the program everyone breaks, you could suggest there are unique geniuses (I know of none) which progressively open like a morning glory, but no; everyone breaks. It isn’t always a scholastic shiczma, often personality and circumstance were enough to explain the break but everyone recognized that the symptoms were strikingly similar from case to case.

      I learned that while I could do Newton, and we would have arguments that he often won but occasionally I stood on the same shoulders of giants and could see what he saw. Kant, for all his words, was trying to explain something very simple yet strange, and Faraday was at times mysterious but Maxwell clarified and validated his work.

      Senior year I learned I wasn’t a scientist, that while I could, with effort, understand Einstein, Minkowski, and even believe that I might, eventually, also stumble upon their perceptions. Plank and Scrhodinger(in particular) had proven what I could hardly grasp, much less invoke, their thought. Go on, write the wave equation and explain it’s meaning or tell me what exactly h is or how it is derived. Each of us learned our limitations and our expansives: be it Philosophy, Language, Science, Literature, etc., the twentieth century, more than anything, is a wall we all, in some respect, hit. Are entrapped by.

      There’s more, the experience of leaving a two hour discussion about Don Quixote: imagine you’re a woman and you are having a long, multi-tiered orgasm and how your body quakes and your mind pulses on and off, so then reverse; your body is the warm, taken-for-granted ambers of an old boys’ club firepit while your mind shivers something that could be called a laugh.

      In this brief period I haven’t given you enough, but it is the community, culture, time, agenda which create what it is to attend the college which it is more than a reading list.

  86. Steven Pine

      I am a St. John’s College Santa Fe undergraduate having earned my BA in 2007. After a few facts I am going to attempt an immersive description of what it is to spend four years under the program. This will be a long comment. (disclaimer, I’am tipsy and sleepy, it is 10:25 pm EST)

      The College is a small redoubt of about 450 students, the typical freshmen class has around 120 – 140 students. With the rare exception, all Freshmen are required to live on campus which is divided between ‘uppers’ and ‘lowers’ with the mess hall and most class rooms in between, additional housing is further up the hill: ‘suites’ and ‘apartments’ (apartments only for seniors / married couples(rare)).

      Santa Fe itself is Beautiful, 7000 ft above sea-level, it is the political capital of New Mexico, an otherwise wretchedly poor state, and has the dubious distinction of being one of man’s longest-living-continuously settlements. There is a reason many artists, particularly painters and photographers, have emigrated here: the light is unique, ethereal, it can seem like you’re at the tip of the vast dome of the egg, like the top of your head is off and gravity has been reversed, there’s a purity here that those who are habituated take for granted and enjoy the most, you have to be here to believe it, etc. Santa Fe also is home to all four seasons, seasons mild and obvious.

      As an entering Freshmen (everyone enters as a Freshmen, I know of no exemptions) there is a week of introduction and pretend where you attend a ‘mock’ seminar on Plato’s Meno hosted by upper classmen(Jr’s/Senior) and a tutor. Advice is given, “save your quarters for laundry, you can never have enjoy quarters”, and reflection is had, “If I could go back 2 years and tell myself anything, study more Greek, and don’t worry, you’ll survive (he was an ass)”.

      The way every class is run is important: the assignment will be to read a text, you start with the definitions of Euclid’s Elements for Math, an Anny Dillard(I recall?) essay of all things for science, the first chapter of lushwnig (read Greek alphabet and nouns of being) for language, and the first 3 or 4 books of the Iliad. The ‘tutor’ asks a question, “What is a point?”, “What does the author mean when she says ‘seeing…’, “can anyone recite the alphabet, yeah? Let’s conjugate the verb of be”, “This is my fourth time now beginning the opening question of freshmen seminar and each time I am interested in a different thing but this time I’ve been struck by the beginning, ‘O’ Sing Muse the anger of Achilles’, this rage of his, what is it, why does Homer begin here? I know we can’t answer this last question until we’ve read more, but this idea of the rage of the soldier, the best soldier, I really want to investigate this”.

      Seminar is run by two tutors and has around 20 students, tutorials (math, science, language) is run by one tutor with between 12 (or less) and 18, and the opening question can range from 5 seconds to twenty minutes but typically takes a minute or, at most, two.

      Freshmen year I never spoke first, I kept telling myself I was there to listen, and it often was the second hour of seminar that I piped up. I sometimes wondered if I were a parrot. After class there was either another class or lunch depending on your schedule, and everyone had a ‘core group’ which were 3 or 4 other students with the exact same schedule. Something that might be missing so far is that every freshmen had the same classes — there is no choice — it only depended on what time and what tutor. After Lunch either you had another class or you had the easy day where you could study instead. I spent, without exaggeration, about three hours/twenty a week on Greek, and I was a subpar student in language class.

      Math class might best demonstrate the culture. “Mr. Pine[everyone is referred to by their last name], would you like to demonstrate book two, proposition 6 for the class…” typically we were aware of what material was expected and tried to memorize the propositions. When called a student would go up before the chalk board and recite the text while drawing the appropriate diagrams, the rest would follow along with the text, many students had their book closed(half closed) eagerly watching like vultures for any mistakes (or busily cramming for the next prop). After the demonstration questions would be asked, defended, answered, typically in math there wasn’t much to say after the terms had been agreed upon but occasionally the proposition would offer itself unto a deeper inquiry (3:16) or another reprisal of Euclid’s definitions or axioms (“what is the difference?”) perhaps you’re beginning to see what this is.

      After class, on the way to lunch (or/after dinner) with your core group or with the friend(s) you shared one, two, three (0r none) classes with yet certainly shared material with, “oh you’re discussing book 5, we’re still on book 4, What do you think of tomorrow’s reading, of {the ending of the Iliad} the funeral of Hector? What? I just got over Zeus crying tears of blood for his son Sarpedon, don’t ruin this for me”. To think Incestuous is like saying color when you mean mauve with a touch of black.

      Students eat, breath, read, talk, sleep, think the text. It is brutal to say Hector is afraid of the Gods and have someone else quote Homer saying how beloved and favored he is. But the best students wouldn’t focus on the mistakes but on understanding the different opinions: what was meant when Ms. Hannrahan agreed emphatically that Hector loved his city before his brother, his cursed company/choices or Mr Wolfiwitz who disagreed, suggesting Hector has too lax a word for his brother and wife-in-law and could not make the necessary/difficult choices required by a noble(good?) leader.

      All this isn’t to ignore that sophomores/juniors/seniors weren’t around for freshmen to engage, but each had their own excitements from the program which crams thousands of years of Western knowledge(wisdom?) into four years for a post-modern generation. Seniors would engage the Freshmen, earnestly questioning their virgin interpretations of Plato or Aristotle as they struggled through Heidegger or their final papers. Freshmen and Sophomores shared an inclination/sympathy which was divided next year by the encounter of the Enlightenment, the beginning of Junior year. Juniors are typically the forgotten of the campus, bouvicating in the quiet corners puzzling themselves through Newton, Kant, and Faraday.

      In the program everyone breaks, you could suggest there are unique geniuses (I know of none) which progressively open like a morning glory, but no; everyone breaks. It isn’t always a scholastic shiczma, often personality and circumstance were enough to explain the break but everyone recognized that the symptoms were strikingly similar from case to case.

      I learned that while I could do Newton, and we would have arguments that he often won but occasionally I stood on the same shoulders of giants and could see what he saw. Kant, for all his words, was trying to explain something very simple yet strange, and Faraday was at times mysterious but Maxwell clarified and validated his work.

      Senior year I learned I wasn’t a scientist, that while I could, with effort, understand Einstein, Minkowski, and even believe that I might, eventually, also stumble upon their perceptions. Plank and Scrhodinger(in particular) had proven what I could hardly grasp, much less invoke, their thought. Go on, write the wave equation and explain it’s meaning or tell me what exactly h is or how it is derived. Each of us learned our limitations and our expansives: be it Philosophy, Language, Science, Literature, etc., the twentieth century, more than anything, is a wall we all, in some respect, hit. Are entrapped by.

      There’s more, the experience of leaving a two hour discussion about Don Quixote: imagine you’re a woman and you are having a long, multi-tiered orgasm and how your body quakes and your mind pulses on and off, so then reverse; your body is the warm, taken-for-granted ambers of an old boys’ club firepit while your mind shivers something that could be called a laugh.

      In this brief period I haven’t given you enough, but it is the community, culture, time, agenda which create what it is to attend the college which it is more than a reading list.

  87. Muzzy

      Mr. Pine, I just read your post. Thank you! I had no idea St. John’s was such an extraordinary school. If I were to have children, I would encourage them to apply.

  88. Muzzy

      Mr. Pine, I just read your post. Thank you! I had no idea St. John’s was such an extraordinary school. If I were to have children, I would encourage them to apply.

  89. Roxane

      Wow, Steven. Thanks so much time for your massive comment and explaining what it was like at St. John’s. It sounds amazing.

  90. Roxane

      Wow, Steven. Thanks so much time for your massive comment and explaining what it was like at St. John’s. It sounds amazing.

  91. ZZZZIPP

      TIM, YOU ARE SINCERE

  92. ZZZZIPP

      TIM, YOU ARE SINCERE