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Q & A #4
If you have questions about writing or publishing or whatever, leave them in the comments or e-mail them to roxane at roxanegay dot com and we will find you some answers.
If you withdraw a story, is it appropriate to immediately send another story to that lit. journal? What if you have multiple withdrawals from that publication? (And I’m talking the kind of place where you have to email them to withdraw your piece, not just pull it out yourself and they never even knew it was there.) Are they going to get pissed at some point? When does your good/bad luck become a reason to basically stop submitting to a journal?
Sean Lovelace
Yes, they get pissed eventually. Numerous withdraws? I am already souring your name. What are you doing? If you are continually getting accepted by multiple journals, bless you. But why not stop the simultaneous submissions? You obviously know how to write a great story lit mags want. Cut the shotgun approach at this point.
Lily Hoang
I don’t submit enough to journals to withdraw, but I have withdrawn book ms from presses. I do ask if they’ll consider another ms in the future, unless I have a spare lying around (which I never do). Usually, they’re nice, but with one press in particular, I’ve pulled two or three ms from them (one just a week or two after I submitted it). That’s just embarrassing. With journals though, I don’t think it’s a big deal.
Ryan Call
I don’t think it’s bad to immediately send another story to take the place of a withdrawal. It doesn’t bother me when I read submissions for NOÖ. I just mark the previous story ‘withdrawn’ and the new story goes at the end of the queue. As a writer, I tend not to send an immediate replacement. I don’t often have a story to replace another story, so it takes me a long time to figure out what to send to that editor if I had to withdraw another story that I thought was perfect for him or her.
Roxane Gay
Multiple withdrawals gets annoying. To go on a tiny tangent, I get irritated when people withdraw stories the same day or the same week. I realize that cannot be helped at times, but it is aggravating. When you find yourself in the position where you’re always withdrawing stories, it’s time to stop simultaneously submitting or at least submitting to no more than two or three markets for each story. To really answer your question, I don’t mind a writer immediately sending another submission immediately after they withdraw a piece but if it happened four or five times in a very short time span, I would start to get testy about it.
If you want to publish a short story collection, do a majority of the stories in it need to have been published elsewhere first? Does it matter? Does it make a press more likely to want to publish your book?
Sean Lovelace
A bad-ass collection will be published, period.
Lily Hoang
Having 90% of your stories previously published won’t make me want to publish your book if it’s bad. Having 0% published won’t prevent me from publishing it if it’s good.
Roxane Gay
I don’t think there’s an equation for the ratio of published versus unpublished pieces to include in a collection. Good writing is good writing. That said, I don’t have a collection out yet so consider the source.
What is your favorite literary magazine? Why?
Sean Lovelace
Elimae. Fresh, varied, huge turnover of new stuff–like a really, really good Thai place. Weird analogy, but a good Thai place kicks ass. The one near me just dropped some crazy green bean dish that tastes like sin. I am surprised often.
Roxane Gay
I really cannot pick just one magazine because there’s too much greatness out there but right now I am obsessed with Unsaid 4. I kept hearing people hype the issue so I immediately began to doubt the thing but after reading it for the past two weeks, I have to say the hype is eminently well-deserved. Unsaid is, without a doubt, one of the finest literary magazines I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading. The range of writing is fascinating. The very first story in the issue literally made me stop breathing it was so good and while I won’t say I loved every piece, I did read and respect every piece and that is something that rarely happens for me. For editors, the book is a primer on how to assemble a superior collection of writing. For writers, the range of writing styles, genres and techniques on display are very instructive. More than anything, I kept thinking over and over, this is a book that has heart bleeding all over every page. For me, Unsaid isn’t so much a magazine as an experience.
Editors, what is the most annoying thing writers do?
Sean Lovelace
Clearly, clearly do not read the very magazine we print.
Have you ever read a book you wish you had written? Which one? Why?
Sean Lovelace
I am a mediocre writer, so I am going to just give you a number: 84% of books I read meet your criterion.
“I am already souring your name.”
-Sean Lovelace
Don’t you have an off button? Everyone else does. Use it sometimes. Don’t be such a Lutz.
“I am already souring your name.”
-Sean Lovelace
Don’t you have an off button? Everyone else does. Use it sometimes. Don’t be such a Lutz.
Withdrawing now and then is okay, but I think if you are constantly withdrawing from magazines one of two things is happening. Either you are not respecting the magazines you send to and simply carpet bombing your work across the lit mag world or you are not respecting your own writing and are submitting to magazines that are not as good as ones you could be sending to. Either way, if your stories are being picked up easily it is time to submit more selectively.
Withdrawing now and then is okay, but I think if you are constantly withdrawing from magazines one of two things is happening. Either you are not respecting the magazines you send to and simply carpet bombing your work across the lit mag world or you are not respecting your own writing and are submitting to magazines that are not as good as ones you could be sending to. Either way, if your stories are being picked up easily it is time to submit more selectively.
My mom and dad sat me down with a bald-headed guy who assured me they loved me like crazy and wanted me to join the fight against carpet bombing. Now I submit to one or two journals at a time.
My mom and dad sat me down with a bald-headed guy who assured me they loved me like crazy and wanted me to join the fight against carpet bombing. Now I submit to one or two journals at a time.
Wow, I can’t believe some of these comments on withdrawing. Even good writers–writers with great credits and books–often get numerous rejections on a story before it’s accepted. You’re telling me that I should trust the whims of some 18 year old slush reader at a college or university mag just because I now have a few decent credits?
I think the key is sending out your sim subs all at once, rather than sending out subs for a story for three months straight, so that all of the journals you sent to had the same amount of time to read your work (rather than sending subs out for a piece for three months straight and staggering the time different journals have to read your piece).
But advising that a writer should stop sim subbing when he finds him or herself having to withdraw stories? Maybe if the writer is sending work to the Rat’s Butt Review or someone’s blog, but not to journals with good reps and acceptance rates below 5%.
Wow, I can’t believe some of these comments on withdrawing. Even good writers–writers with great credits and books–often get numerous rejections on a story before it’s accepted. You’re telling me that I should trust the whims of some 18 year old slush reader at a college or university mag just because I now have a few decent credits?
I think the key is sending out your sim subs all at once, rather than sending out subs for a story for three months straight, so that all of the journals you sent to had the same amount of time to read your work (rather than sending subs out for a piece for three months straight and staggering the time different journals have to read your piece).
But advising that a writer should stop sim subbing when he finds him or herself having to withdraw stories? Maybe if the writer is sending work to the Rat’s Butt Review or someone’s blog, but not to journals with good reps and acceptance rates below 5%.
I kind of agree with withdrawer. Even though I never re-submit after withdrawing until at least 3 or 4 months have passed, I’m probably guilty as anyone of over-submitting in my younger days (i.e. 2 or 3 years ago).
These Q&As always make me paranoid that I’ve once inadvertently committed a horrible submission faux pas and have been added to a list of people whose submissions should never be taken seriously that is distributed to the vast network of literary journal editors.
I kind of agree with withdrawer. Even though I never re-submit after withdrawing until at least 3 or 4 months have passed, I’m probably guilty as anyone of over-submitting in my younger days (i.e. 2 or 3 years ago).
These Q&As always make me paranoid that I’ve once inadvertently committed a horrible submission faux pas and have been added to a list of people whose submissions should never be taken seriously that is distributed to the vast network of literary journal editors.
I think people are talking about stopping the carpet bomb approach, not stopping simultaneous submisions. There is a big difference between sending your stories to a few (maybe even a dozen) great journals and every now and then getting into one and being forced to withdraw and then in sending your stories to 30 places at a time and withdrawing from all of them once a month or so
So that’s my Q: Do literary journal editors across the nation share a blacklist of obnoxious submitters, and where can I view this list?
I think people are talking about stopping the carpet bomb approach, not stopping simultaneous submisions. There is a big difference between sending your stories to a few (maybe even a dozen) great journals and every now and then getting into one and being forced to withdraw and then in sending your stories to 30 places at a time and withdrawing from all of them once a month or so
So that’s my Q: Do literary journal editors across the nation share a blacklist of obnoxious submitters, and where can I view this list?
similarly: do submissions editors discriminate against irregular names like “zzzzzip” or “wax lion”?
similarly: do submissions editors discriminate against irregular names like “zzzzzip” or “wax lion”?
You think sending a piece to 30 journals that accept like 2-3% of what they receive is “carpet-bombing”? Then I guess I’m a carpet-bomber, but I’d rather be published than unpublished and suffering from Nice Person’s Disease.
And, honestly, what are the odds that one’s work will be accepted within a month at most halfway decent journals?
Maybe we’re thinking of two different types of journals–internet journals that usually respond more quickly vs. print journals out of MFA programs that usually accept work in 2-6 months.
You think sending a piece to 30 journals that accept like 2-3% of what they receive is “carpet-bombing”? Then I guess I’m a carpet-bomber, but I’d rather be published than unpublished and suffering from Nice Person’s Disease.
And, honestly, what are the odds that one’s work will be accepted within a month at most halfway decent journals?
Maybe we’re thinking of two different types of journals–internet journals that usually respond more quickly vs. print journals out of MFA programs that usually accept work in 2-6 months.
i say there is no limit to the places you should send as long as the primary criteria is met: you actually know the magazine, and that your work could go well there (some journals have very loose parameters, so this isn’t stifling): that you aren’t just wasting people’s time by shitting your work all over the place without accounting for anything about it than that you typed words.
i say there is no limit to the places you should send as long as the primary criteria is met: you actually know the magazine, and that your work could go well there (some journals have very loose parameters, so this isn’t stifling): that you aren’t just wasting people’s time by shitting your work all over the place without accounting for anything about it than that you typed words.
Blake,
I agree…somewhat. Because I’m thinking of college-affiliated print journals at the moment, I must say that sometimes it’s difficult to discern taste or aesthetic. Other than a handful of such journals, most of the college mags publish the same range of “literary” fiction. Plus, the staffs turnover every single year. The fact that Jacob Appel has published in every single MFA mag ever known to mankind, while most of his work remains the same, proves that I shouldn’t waste too much time researching every magazine I want to send to.
Blake,
I agree…somewhat. Because I’m thinking of college-affiliated print journals at the moment, I must say that sometimes it’s difficult to discern taste or aesthetic. Other than a handful of such journals, most of the college mags publish the same range of “literary” fiction. Plus, the staffs turnover every single year. The fact that Jacob Appel has published in every single MFA mag ever known to mankind, while most of his work remains the same, proves that I shouldn’t waste too much time researching every magazine I want to send to.
no, totally. many journals don’t have a very clear aesthetic, and even that changes as different student bodies come in. so, i say go for it, the one caveat being that one should be careful not to appear like an appel? plastering shit all over just because? or would you rather publish places that you actually care about, that you know the journal, and like it, and therein have some feeling gained in being involved? as long as you’re not just splattering for the hell of it, and the work is truly something you are proud to share (sometimes the submissions craze can get people blindly subbing work that isn’t done) then i say there is no shame sending in heavy amounts. it’s really the only way to get things done.
no, totally. many journals don’t have a very clear aesthetic, and even that changes as different student bodies come in. so, i say go for it, the one caveat being that one should be careful not to appear like an appel? plastering shit all over just because? or would you rather publish places that you actually care about, that you know the journal, and like it, and therein have some feeling gained in being involved? as long as you’re not just splattering for the hell of it, and the work is truly something you are proud to share (sometimes the submissions craze can get people blindly subbing work that isn’t done) then i say there is no shame sending in heavy amounts. it’s really the only way to get things done.
Gotcha. I agree with your points. I never send stuff out that I don’t really believe in, and I try to create my list around “fit,” yet what I’ve found is that, usually, only 10-12 journals really, really “fit” me, so I have to round out the rest of the list with guesses (I usually send to 30-35).
Gotcha. I agree with your points. I never send stuff out that I don’t really believe in, and I try to create my list around “fit,” yet what I’ve found is that, usually, only 10-12 journals really, really “fit” me, so I have to round out the rest of the list with guesses (I usually send to 30-35).
i try not to submit any single piece to more than 3 places at once. lately i’ve been keeping track of magazines i like and reading every issue, working on new stuff concurrently, and then only submitting to one at a time. this is a recent development.
i think, like most people who are relatively new to all this online stuff, i learned some hard lessons. it’s hard to not feel guilty about this. but i think it’s important that editors keep in mind that not all writers understand “the rules of the game.” there’s no manual for this kind of stuff, which is why open forums like this are so important.
i can’t imagine sending one piece to over 30 places. that seems insane to me.
i try not to submit any single piece to more than 3 places at once. lately i’ve been keeping track of magazines i like and reading every issue, working on new stuff concurrently, and then only submitting to one at a time. this is a recent development.
i think, like most people who are relatively new to all this online stuff, i learned some hard lessons. it’s hard to not feel guilty about this. but i think it’s important that editors keep in mind that not all writers understand “the rules of the game.” there’s no manual for this kind of stuff, which is why open forums like this are so important.
i can’t imagine sending one piece to over 30 places. that seems insane to me.
“but I’d rather be published than unpublished and suffering from Nice Person’s Disease.”
But dude, we are talking about people who withdraw constantly. Ergo, they are getting published constantly.
If your work isn’t getting published anywhere then sending to 30 places isn’t crazy I guess. Still though I think what happens is that you are way more likely to get into the worst 10 of those 30 journals you sent to at the same time and they probably read quicker so you damage your chances of getting into the 10 journals you like the most.
But yes, my guess is that people who withdraw on a regular basis are getting stuff published in small internet websites
Well, it’s pretty typical for people who send stuff to magazines with response times of 3-6 months. What’s insane is holding one piece up at 3 places for half a year, places that accept .00000001% of what they receive.
“but I’d rather be published than unpublished and suffering from Nice Person’s Disease.”
But dude, we are talking about people who withdraw constantly. Ergo, they are getting published constantly.
If your work isn’t getting published anywhere then sending to 30 places isn’t crazy I guess. Still though I think what happens is that you are way more likely to get into the worst 10 of those 30 journals you sent to at the same time and they probably read quicker so you damage your chances of getting into the 10 journals you like the most.
But yes, my guess is that people who withdraw on a regular basis are getting stuff published in small internet websites
Well, it’s pretty typical for people who send stuff to magazines with response times of 3-6 months. What’s insane is holding one piece up at 3 places for half a year, places that accept .00000001% of what they receive.
To clarify, I don’t think sending a story to 30 places of the course of its life is crazy at all. But I think the best policy is to submit the story to your 4-8 favorite places first, then as you hear back send to others, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
yes, but a lot of the logistics of publishing in general are insane, i guess. it makes me feel better about what i’m doing if i’m focused on very specific goals.
do what you gotta do. do it well.
To clarify, I don’t think sending a story to 30 places of the course of its life is crazy at all. But I think the best policy is to submit the story to your 4-8 favorite places first, then as you hear back send to others, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
yes, but a lot of the logistics of publishing in general are insane, i guess. it makes me feel better about what i’m doing if i’m focused on very specific goals.
do what you gotta do. do it well.
I know, which is why I’m not worried about whether I annoy an editor two. They annoy also annoy writers. I’ve been on both sides of the fence, as I’ve worked at a few lit mags. We all annoy each other. Appel annoys the crap out of half of the lit mag world, yet still publishes in 9,097 journals a year. I’m not suggesting that I want to be like him, but he is proof that a persistent writer can publish, even if he annoys some folks along the way.
I know, which is why I’m not worried about whether I annoy an editor two. They annoy also annoy writers. I’ve been on both sides of the fence, as I’ve worked at a few lit mags. We all annoy each other. Appel annoys the crap out of half of the lit mag world, yet still publishes in 9,097 journals a year. I’m not suggesting that I want to be like him, but he is proof that a persistent writer can publish, even if he annoys some folks along the way.
Sorry for the typos in my last post
*I know, which is why I’m not worried about whether I annoy an editor or two. They also annoy writers. I’ve been on both sides of the fence, as I’ve worked at a few lit mags. We all annoy each other. Appel annoys the crap out of half of the lit mag world, yet still publishes in 9,097 journals a year. I’m not suggesting that I want to be like him, but he is proof that a persistent writer can publish, even if he annoys some folks along the way.
Sorry for the typos in my last post
*I know, which is why I’m not worried about whether I annoy an editor or two. They also annoy writers. I’ve been on both sides of the fence, as I’ve worked at a few lit mags. We all annoy each other. Appel annoys the crap out of half of the lit mag world, yet still publishes in 9,097 journals a year. I’m not suggesting that I want to be like him, but he is proof that a persistent writer can publish, even if he annoys some folks along the way.
Appel’s name always appears in these discussions but I swear I’ve never seen his work in any journal I’ve ever read.
Appel’s name always appears in these discussions but I swear I’ve never seen his work in any journal I’ve ever read.
“Appel’s name always appears in these discussions but I swear I’ve never seen his work in any journal I’ve ever read.”
Lincoln,
Name a journal that’s affiliated with a college or university, and chances are, Appel has appeared in it. I think he has something like 100+ print journal credits.
Also, he places in almost every single contest out there. It’s insane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Appel
“Appel’s name always appears in these discussions but I swear I’ve never seen his work in any journal I’ve ever read.”
Lincoln,
Name a journal that’s affiliated with a college or university, and chances are, Appel has appeared in it. I think he has something like 100+ print journal credits.
Also, he places in almost every single contest out there. It’s insane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Appel
Persistence is absolutely key to publishing. I always say this.
Still, that doesn’t mean you have to or should carpet bomb a few dozen journals at the same time. As I said above, I’m not sure its smart for the writer to do regardless of how editors feel because it means you are damaging your chances at the top/favorite journals.
Persistence is absolutely key to publishing. I always say this.
Still, that doesn’t mean you have to or should carpet bomb a few dozen journals at the same time. As I said above, I’m not sure its smart for the writer to do regardless of how editors feel because it means you are damaging your chances at the top/favorite journals.
There are few things more annoying than receiving a withdrawal email hours after the story was submitted. Next day is pretty bad too.
We read in the order received, so if someone keeps withdrawing and submitting another story in the same email, it is likely that we will never read their story unless they stop withdrawing. Because their email goes to the bottom of the submissions pile.
And yeah, there are a couple of writers who I ignore when they submit. They do things like sending frequent multiple submissions in individual emails, submitting within an hour of a rejection, submitting when we are closed, and sending things that do not fit my journal in the least bit. Two people are like this and they keep submitting over and over and over again. Their submissions process is like tossing their own shit onto a wall and seeing what sticks.
There are few things more annoying than receiving a withdrawal email hours after the story was submitted. Next day is pretty bad too.
We read in the order received, so if someone keeps withdrawing and submitting another story in the same email, it is likely that we will never read their story unless they stop withdrawing. Because their email goes to the bottom of the submissions pile.
And yeah, there are a couple of writers who I ignore when they submit. They do things like sending frequent multiple submissions in individual emails, submitting within an hour of a rejection, submitting when we are closed, and sending things that do not fit my journal in the least bit. Two people are like this and they keep submitting over and over and over again. Their submissions process is like tossing their own shit onto a wall and seeing what sticks.
a dozen really isn’t a lot considering how long it takes. when i was submitting a lot, i would make sure every story was always out at around 12 places. when i got a rejection from one, i would submit to another, keeping the number the same. this worked for me. i don’t think it damaged my chances with the ones where i had to withdraw. in fact, in several instances, i was asked to send work directly to the editor because they wished they’d gotten the piece and wanted to read the next one faster.
sure, 30 is a bit much, but i don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, beyond that i can’t think of 30 journals for every piece that would be worth sending to. that seems a stretch.
however, any editor who would stop considering work (assuming it is worthwhile work, which it should be, before anything else) because someone is diligent, even maybe a little crazy, well, that editor needs to lighten up. it’s pretty easy to remove a withdrawn story from consideration. and you have to be a little crazy.
the whole process is pretty fucking retarded in the first place.
a dozen really isn’t a lot considering how long it takes. when i was submitting a lot, i would make sure every story was always out at around 12 places. when i got a rejection from one, i would submit to another, keeping the number the same. this worked for me. i don’t think it damaged my chances with the ones where i had to withdraw. in fact, in several instances, i was asked to send work directly to the editor because they wished they’d gotten the piece and wanted to read the next one faster.
sure, 30 is a bit much, but i don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, beyond that i can’t think of 30 journals for every piece that would be worth sending to. that seems a stretch.
however, any editor who would stop considering work (assuming it is worthwhile work, which it should be, before anything else) because someone is diligent, even maybe a little crazy, well, that editor needs to lighten up. it’s pretty easy to remove a withdrawn story from consideration. and you have to be a little crazy.
the whole process is pretty fucking retarded in the first place.
i love mutiple withdrawals. they’re my favorite. every withdrawal is one less rejection that has to be sent. as an editor, i get to send a note and say congratulations. withdrawals are happiness.
i love mutiple withdrawals. they’re my favorite. every withdrawal is one less rejection that has to be sent. as an editor, i get to send a note and say congratulations. withdrawals are happiness.
well i’ll be. darby said something i agree with. :P
I don’t think I’ve ever submitted to more than two journals at the same time, but I don’t submit much.
well i’ll be. darby said something i agree with. :P
I don’t think I’ve ever submitted to more than two journals at the same time, but I don’t submit much.
Oh, I know you aren’t making him up. I guess I’m kind of alluding to what Blake was saying about in a roundabout way. Is it better to focus your submissions on journals you love and that have the readership you want or to just get in anywhere that is decent?
I have a hard time believing Appel is curled up at night engrossed by dozens of new issues of bland repetitive [Insert location or university] Review. I also doubt many agents or other editors or even people at all really read those journals (caveat: clearly, from the wikipedia page, this dude has been in a few quality mags that do have big readerships as well as the random ones)
I don’t know the answer to that question. When I was younger I went for the random journals, but these days it seems that going where you truly want to be is more rewarding.
Oh, I know you aren’t making him up. I guess I’m kind of alluding to what Blake was saying about in a roundabout way. Is it better to focus your submissions on journals you love and that have the readership you want or to just get in anywhere that is decent?
I have a hard time believing Appel is curled up at night engrossed by dozens of new issues of bland repetitive [Insert location or university] Review. I also doubt many agents or other editors or even people at all really read those journals (caveat: clearly, from the wikipedia page, this dude has been in a few quality mags that do have big readerships as well as the random ones)
I don’t know the answer to that question. When I was younger I went for the random journals, but these days it seems that going where you truly want to be is more rewarding.
a dozen isn’t many, but I said a few dozen! Like 36.
I would never have a piece out at more than 8 journals at a time personally, but that is just me. having 12 journals considering a piece at a time seems fine to me too. But getitng up to 30 is, as you say, a bit much.
a dozen isn’t many, but I said a few dozen! Like 36.
I would never have a piece out at more than 8 journals at a time personally, but that is just me. having 12 journals considering a piece at a time seems fine to me too. But getitng up to 30 is, as you say, a bit much.
We’ve moved a bit in the discussion though. I think that sending to 30 places at once is a bad move for the writer. I don’t think think most editors would care at all about that.
My only editorial complaint is with people that withdraw on a regular basis and then send a new piece a few seconds later. If every piece you are sending me is being withdrawn before I get to it (and Gigantic isn’t that slow in responding, though we could be better) then why even bother sending it to me?
separate issues though.
We’ve moved a bit in the discussion though. I think that sending to 30 places at once is a bad move for the writer. I don’t think think most editors would care at all about that.
My only editorial complaint is with people that withdraw on a regular basis and then send a new piece a few seconds later. If every piece you are sending me is being withdrawn before I get to it (and Gigantic isn’t that slow in responding, though we could be better) then why even bother sending it to me?
separate issues though.
“My only editorial complaint is with people that withdraw on a regular basis and then send a new piece a few seconds later. If every piece you are sending me is being withdrawn before I get to it (and Gigantic isn’t that slow in responding, though we could be better) then why even bother sending it to me?
separate issues though.”
______________
Yes, it does seem like the response time is key, so I agree with you that we’re sorta discussing different situations. For instance, Roxanne usually responds in 10 or so days, per Duotrope. I wouldn’t even sim sub if I sent to Pank, if I knew I’d get a response in 10 days. Most of the journals I send to, though, have much longer response times.
“My only editorial complaint is with people that withdraw on a regular basis and then send a new piece a few seconds later. If every piece you are sending me is being withdrawn before I get to it (and Gigantic isn’t that slow in responding, though we could be better) then why even bother sending it to me?
separate issues though.”
______________
Yes, it does seem like the response time is key, so I agree with you that we’re sorta discussing different situations. For instance, Roxanne usually responds in 10 or so days, per Duotrope. I wouldn’t even sim sub if I sent to Pank, if I knew I’d get a response in 10 days. Most of the journals I send to, though, have much longer response times.
Speaking for PANK, we don’t keep a blacklist. There are things that irritate me but I have a life so I don’t sit around dwelling on those irritations for too long and I rarely am going to remember the name of the writer who did something to tweak me. No matter what, it is all about the writing. I can only think of one writer who has ever frustrated me so much that I cannot judge their work without bias but I have a co-editor and that helps create a system of checks and balances in such situations.
Speaking for PANK, we don’t keep a blacklist. There are things that irritate me but I have a life so I don’t sit around dwelling on those irritations for too long and I rarely am going to remember the name of the writer who did something to tweak me. No matter what, it is all about the writing. I can only think of one writer who has ever frustrated me so much that I cannot judge their work without bias but I have a co-editor and that helps create a system of checks and balances in such situations.
Editors and writers are not in a relationship of equal power. Editors should pity writers even though they greatly annoy. Either close submissions and publish only your friends or deal with insane people in the hope that one of them will one day be good-insane.
Editors and writers are not in a relationship of equal power. Editors should pity writers even though they greatly annoy. Either close submissions and publish only your friends or deal with insane people in the hope that one of them will one day be good-insane.
I too have taken to submitting only to 2-3 places at a time. Of the 11 pieces I have out, only one is simultaneously submitted. That’s partly because I’m lazy and partly because I’m more confident in the work I’m sending it out and my understanding of the markets where I am sending the work.
I too have taken to submitting only to 2-3 places at a time. Of the 11 pieces I have out, only one is simultaneously submitted. That’s partly because I’m lazy and partly because I’m more confident in the work I’m sending it out and my understanding of the markets where I am sending the work.
nice. laziness/confidence maybe go together some. but definitely this idea of “understanding the markets” is what i was getting at earlier. i just know what i like to read now, and am starting to learn what i want from my writing. the journals i want to publish with are getting more specific along with that.
nice. laziness/confidence maybe go together some. but definitely this idea of “understanding the markets” is what i was getting at earlier. i just know what i like to read now, and am starting to learn what i want from my writing. the journals i want to publish with are getting more specific along with that.
I think editors are pretty cool with all this. I don’t know anyone who blacklists or rejects work out of hand from people that annoy them. I do, however, question whether the carpet bomb approach is the best method for the writer as outlined above.
I would take someone with a name like that less seriously unless they had many publishing credits, like xTx.
I think editors are pretty cool with all this. I don’t know anyone who blacklists or rejects work out of hand from people that annoy them. I do, however, question whether the carpet bomb approach is the best method for the writer as outlined above.
I would take someone with a name like that less seriously unless they had many publishing credits, like xTx.
actually, i would like to withdraw my comments from this thread, they have been accepted for publication elsewhere.
actually, i would like to withdraw my comments from this thread, they have been accepted for publication elsewhere.
Withdrawer, that actually touches on exactly why sometimes I get irritated (temporarily) by withdrawals. We respond most of the time in less than a week so to see someone withdraw a story the *same day* just puts me in a tizzy. That tizzy, however, has nothing to do with what I think about the writer or their work. It’s a petty, human feeling and I’m comfortable owning it.
Withdrawer, that actually touches on exactly why sometimes I get irritated (temporarily) by withdrawals. We respond most of the time in less than a week so to see someone withdraw a story the *same day* just puts me in a tizzy. That tizzy, however, has nothing to do with what I think about the writer or their work. It’s a petty, human feeling and I’m comfortable owning it.
hooray!
hooray!
“And yeah, there are a couple of writers who I ignore when they submit.”
Forgot to mention: They also ignore my responses when I ask them to refrain from doing something. They never write back directly. It’s just all impersonal submissions. Never indicating that they’ve read my responses. Wouldn’t ignore them if there was some actual personal communication. They remind me of spam bots, but with stories to submit.
“And yeah, there are a couple of writers who I ignore when they submit.”
Forgot to mention: They also ignore my responses when I ask them to refrain from doing something. They never write back directly. It’s just all impersonal submissions. Never indicating that they’ve read my responses. Wouldn’t ignore them if there was some actual personal communication. They remind me of spam bots, but with stories to submit.
f, withdrawer, roxane will never accept you if she figures out your name! she hates her name being misspelled. well, maybe her co-editor will accept something by you.
f, withdrawer, roxane will never accept you if she figures out your name! she hates her name being misspelled. well, maybe her co-editor will accept something by you.
ha, well put.
ha, well put.
i will say it can get a little confusing if a journal accepts sim and multiple submissions such as abje, so a lot of withdrawals are for like two of six pieces submitted in the same mail. it doesnt happen too often since subs get handled quick enough.
withdraw!
i will say it can get a little confusing if a journal accepts sim and multiple submissions such as abje, so a lot of withdrawals are for like two of six pieces submitted in the same mail. it doesnt happen too often since subs get handled quick enough.
withdraw!
I think I am finally just starting to get to this point myself. I’ve been mega-immersing myself in literary magazines this year, and getting to know a lot more editors’ tastes, too, so I can look at a finished story and know there are really maybe only 2 or 3 places it would fit just perfectly.
I have started to submit to more print journals, and they tend to be really slow, but I’ve still tried to limit what I send because I’ve realized that if I want to be in Journal X, then sending something something to Journal Z who probably will take the piece (and quickly) is not going to help me meet my goal in the long run. It’s hard, because I want to see the stuff out there in the world if I love it, but I’m a pretty patient person and after spending the last several years just writing and not publishing until this year, seeing my work find homes has been quite gratifying to say the least.
I think I am finally just starting to get to this point myself. I’ve been mega-immersing myself in literary magazines this year, and getting to know a lot more editors’ tastes, too, so I can look at a finished story and know there are really maybe only 2 or 3 places it would fit just perfectly.
I have started to submit to more print journals, and they tend to be really slow, but I’ve still tried to limit what I send because I’ve realized that if I want to be in Journal X, then sending something something to Journal Z who probably will take the piece (and quickly) is not going to help me meet my goal in the long run. It’s hard, because I want to see the stuff out there in the world if I love it, but I’m a pretty patient person and after spending the last several years just writing and not publishing until this year, seeing my work find homes has been quite gratifying to say the least.
“I do, however, question whether the carpet bomb approach is the best method for the writer as outlined above.”
_______________
It’s worked for me so far; everything I’ve sent out has been accepted by a decent journal. However, I don’t just send out anything, or send stuff out to send stuff out. I only send out work that I really believe in, which means that some of my stories have never seen the light of day. I don’t think sending a good piece out to 30 journals is “carpet bombing,” either–it’s not like I’m sending out shit. I’ve read slush for several magazines, so I have a good idea of the kind of work that has no business being submitted.
“I do, however, question whether the carpet bomb approach is the best method for the writer as outlined above.”
_______________
It’s worked for me so far; everything I’ve sent out has been accepted by a decent journal. However, I don’t just send out anything, or send stuff out to send stuff out. I only send out work that I really believe in, which means that some of my stories have never seen the light of day. I don’t think sending a good piece out to 30 journals is “carpet bombing,” either–it’s not like I’m sending out shit. I’ve read slush for several magazines, so I have a good idea of the kind of work that has no business being submitted.
interesting that ‘carpet bomb’ is now part of the independent publishing vernacular
interesting that ‘carpet bomb’ is now part of the independent publishing vernacular
And working at several litmags has taught me that good writers who submit good are often rejected, even if their work “fits” the journal’s aesthetic. All it takes is one or two readers, or the editor–who could be some 22 year old who has never published anything in his life–to say no. I’ve said yes to some great stuff as a reader–work written by writers that many on this blog would recognize if I chose to name drop, writers who’ve won awards and presented work similar to work we’d published in the past–only to have others vote no. So even if I write good work–work that’s been revised numerous times and is well-crafted and well-written and “fits”–it’ll still get rejected by numerous journals.
And working at several litmags has taught me that good writers who submit good are often rejected, even if their work “fits” the journal’s aesthetic. All it takes is one or two readers, or the editor–who could be some 22 year old who has never published anything in his life–to say no. I’ve said yes to some great stuff as a reader–work written by writers that many on this blog would recognize if I chose to name drop, writers who’ve won awards and presented work similar to work we’d published in the past–only to have others vote no. So even if I write good work–work that’s been revised numerous times and is well-crafted and well-written and “fits”–it’ll still get rejected by numerous journals.
Ha.
Ironically, the symptoms of withdrawal–tremors, sweats, insomnia, preoccupation, paranoia, and so forth–are often relieved by simply withdrawing a piece from submission.
Ha.
Ironically, the symptoms of withdrawal–tremors, sweats, insomnia, preoccupation, paranoia, and so forth–are often relieved by simply withdrawing a piece from submission.
this is feels like a new anon concept. i’m fascinated by it. like for every post an anon appears that is just overly concerned with the subject being talked about. Is htmlgiant behind this, an attempt to push conversation forward?
this is feels like a new anon concept. i’m fascinated by it. like for every post an anon appears that is just overly concerned with the subject being talked about. Is htmlgiant behind this, an attempt to push conversation forward?
I hate receiving a rejection after withdrawing a piece from consideration. That really lowers my opinion of the publication. I’ve seen Appel’s name in numerous journals but I can’t say I’ve ever read one of his stories. I don’t have anything against him — I think he has a ridiculous number of degrees — but his is a good example that publication in college lit journals doesn’t necessarily lead to bigger things. For someone who has published as much as he has, I’m surprised he doesn’t have a book out (at least not to my knowledge). I wonder how editors feel when they accept a piece only to hear the piece has already been accepted and the writer forgot to withdraw it. I’ve been guilty of that, although I’m a lot more diligent about withdrawing now.
I hate receiving a rejection after withdrawing a piece from consideration. That really lowers my opinion of the publication. I’ve seen Appel’s name in numerous journals but I can’t say I’ve ever read one of his stories. I don’t have anything against him — I think he has a ridiculous number of degrees — but his is a good example that publication in college lit journals doesn’t necessarily lead to bigger things. For someone who has published as much as he has, I’m surprised he doesn’t have a book out (at least not to my knowledge). I wonder how editors feel when they accept a piece only to hear the piece has already been accepted and the writer forgot to withdraw it. I’ve been guilty of that, although I’m a lot more diligent about withdrawing now.
Just ridiculous. Who has that kind of time?
Just ridiculous. Who has that kind of time?
Hey darby,
I’m sure there are topics that you would talk more freely about while going anon. This is just a topic that’s always interested me. I’m not on html’s payroll, but I’m willing to negotiate with Roxane (I even got the spelling right this time!)
Hey darby,
I’m sure there are topics that you would talk more freely about while going anon. This is just a topic that’s always interested me. I’m not on html’s payroll, but I’m willing to negotiate with Roxane (I even got the spelling right this time!)
I hate receiving a rejection after withdrawing a piece from consideration.
this is not always an easy thing for editors to control. most slush reading processes don’t account for particular pieces to be ejected from the process. i think it doesnt bother me as a writer because as an editor i understand why it tends to happen. withdrawals usually get sent to the same submission email address where they get read in the same order as if it were a new submission (there could be fifty or more other emails ahead of it in the queue). unless its very obvious in the subject line that its a withdrawal (Re: WITHRDAWAL!!!!), i dont always know things get withdrawn until ive already sent a response. what editors end up having to do is always monitoring all new mail that comes in always scanning for potential withdrawls everytime they are about to send a response to a submission, and its just not always worth the effort to do this. everytime i catch a withdrawal, i always think, oh i’m lucky i caught this withdrawal. maybe there are better ways to filter withdrawals out but i havent cared enough to look into it. the ideal is really to have a separate email address just for withdrawals so that it can be checked separately, i dont know many places that do this, although i think pindeldyboz does.
I hate receiving a rejection after withdrawing a piece from consideration.
this is not always an easy thing for editors to control. most slush reading processes don’t account for particular pieces to be ejected from the process. i think it doesnt bother me as a writer because as an editor i understand why it tends to happen. withdrawals usually get sent to the same submission email address where they get read in the same order as if it were a new submission (there could be fifty or more other emails ahead of it in the queue). unless its very obvious in the subject line that its a withdrawal (Re: WITHRDAWAL!!!!), i dont always know things get withdrawn until ive already sent a response. what editors end up having to do is always monitoring all new mail that comes in always scanning for potential withdrawls everytime they are about to send a response to a submission, and its just not always worth the effort to do this. everytime i catch a withdrawal, i always think, oh i’m lucky i caught this withdrawal. maybe there are better ways to filter withdrawals out but i havent cared enough to look into it. the ideal is really to have a separate email address just for withdrawals so that it can be checked separately, i dont know many places that do this, although i think pindeldyboz does.
EVERY DAY HTML GIANT FEELS MORE LIKE AN ORGAN
EVERY DAY HTML GIANT FEELS MORE LIKE AN ORGAN
aren’t i already anon? are people assuming i’m darby larson? ;)
i dont really think what i said was true, just that it would be an interesting thing going on if it were true, or that it adds a new dimension to the roll of an anon in online conversation. like im imagining many anons having facetious conversations with themselves just for the sake of filling the internet with conversation.
aren’t i already anon? are people assuming i’m darby larson? ;)
i dont really think what i said was true, just that it would be an interesting thing going on if it were true, or that it adds a new dimension to the roll of an anon in online conversation. like im imagining many anons having facetious conversations with themselves just for the sake of filling the internet with conversation.
Unfortunately, I’m too busy withdrawing submissions–and other things–to participate in such a task.
Unfortunately, I’m too busy withdrawing submissions–and other things–to participate in such a task.
I see your point, esp with pubs that take email subs. But pubs that take mail subs. Come on. Check your inbox every once in a while. (That’s not directed at you, Darby, just a general frustration).
I see your point, esp with pubs that take email subs. But pubs that take mail subs. Come on. Check your inbox every once in a while. (That’s not directed at you, Darby, just a general frustration).
yeah i dont have experience with snail submissions, but here’s my intuition about that. my guess is withdrawals come in and get read by someone as soon as they arrive, but now the problem is finding where that piece is, has it been given to a reader yet, which reader has it, has it already been read, has it moved up. i think the process of tracking the physical piece of writing down is not straight forward.
yeah i dont have experience with snail submissions, but here’s my intuition about that. my guess is withdrawals come in and get read by someone as soon as they arrive, but now the problem is finding where that piece is, has it been given to a reader yet, which reader has it, has it already been read, has it moved up. i think the process of tracking the physical piece of writing down is not straight forward.
Lincoln,
So true! He’s been published in 100s of name journals…without a collection.
There’s a question: how the hell does that happen?
Lincoln,
So true! He’s been published in 100s of name journals…without a collection.
There’s a question: how the hell does that happen?
really? a dozen to 30 places at once? I’ve only just begun carving up my novel into shorts for litmags to spread the word and hopefully help attract a print-publishing partner — two have been published, another silly one also (not related to the book) — but I’m only hitting up a few journals at a time, and trying to target the story adaptations to themes or styles of the mags, then I’m waiting, and waiting… three months now, for the earliest submissions. is it really better policy to hit up more (respectable) journals at once, rather than just a few? I realize this isn’t exactly what y’all are talking about, but I’m curious how many writers have done or currently do this.
really? a dozen to 30 places at once? I’ve only just begun carving up my novel into shorts for litmags to spread the word and hopefully help attract a print-publishing partner — two have been published, another silly one also (not related to the book) — but I’m only hitting up a few journals at a time, and trying to target the story adaptations to themes or styles of the mags, then I’m waiting, and waiting… three months now, for the earliest submissions. is it really better policy to hit up more (respectable) journals at once, rather than just a few? I realize this isn’t exactly what y’all are talking about, but I’m curious how many writers have done or currently do this.
OK, scratch my last question. I just read the rest of these comments. I’m gonna find some more places to hit up. I like Blake’s approach of keeping a dozen sim subs in circulation. Thanks.
OK, scratch my last question. I just read the rest of these comments. I’m gonna find some more places to hit up. I like Blake’s approach of keeping a dozen sim subs in circulation. Thanks.
I see him in our pile ALL THE TIME. It’s driving me nuts.
I see him in our pile ALL THE TIME. It’s driving me nuts.
not that it matters but curious how many “regular” people have heard of this guy. if he’s “our” most prolific writer…wtf does that say. i’ve heard of the dude i think but couldn’t tell you anything about him really
not that it matters but curious how many “regular” people have heard of this guy. if he’s “our” most prolific writer…wtf does that say. i’ve heard of the dude i think but couldn’t tell you anything about him really
im waiting for someone with ‘carpet-bomber’ as a handle to pop up.
im waiting for someone with ‘carpet-bomber’ as a handle to pop up.
darby is right. handling withdrawals in print sub departments always made me anxious when i worked at phoebe. i could never figure out a good way to do it. i could easily withdraw the piece if i had it or knew where it was, and i often looked for it in the big drawer we had in the office, but if the piece had gone out in a packet for readers, then that was less easy. eventually i figured out we could number the packets and then assign a story a packetnumber in the database, but that added a little bit of work to the logging of the incoming stories but made it a little easier to find the withdrawn story. much morefrustrating than trackign emails.
darby is right. handling withdrawals in print sub departments always made me anxious when i worked at phoebe. i could never figure out a good way to do it. i could easily withdraw the piece if i had it or knew where it was, and i often looked for it in the big drawer we had in the office, but if the piece had gone out in a packet for readers, then that was less easy. eventually i figured out we could number the packets and then assign a story a packetnumber in the database, but that added a little bit of work to the logging of the incoming stories but made it a little easier to find the withdrawn story. much morefrustrating than trackign emails.
“not that it matters but curious how many “regular” people have heard of this guy. if he’s “our” most prolific writer…wtf does that say. i’ve heard of the dude i think but couldn’t tell you anything about him really”
_____________
How many “regular” people have heard of any writers, other than Dan Brown, Nora Roberts, and the writers who wrote the books they–the regular people–hated in school?
“not that it matters but curious how many “regular” people have heard of this guy. if he’s “our” most prolific writer…wtf does that say. i’ve heard of the dude i think but couldn’t tell you anything about him really”
_____________
How many “regular” people have heard of any writers, other than Dan Brown, Nora Roberts, and the writers who wrote the books they–the regular people–hated in school?
My question with that post is “most prolific.” Who cares about that? I’m not trying to slag this guy, but most prolific guy whose been in a bunch of fairly random college lit mags without a book out doesn’t mean much. How many people have heard of the most prolific rock band whose never released an album or had a hit song?
My question with that post is “most prolific.” Who cares about that? I’m not trying to slag this guy, but most prolific guy whose been in a bunch of fairly random college lit mags without a book out doesn’t mean much. How many people have heard of the most prolific rock band whose never released an album or had a hit song?
I agree–it is odd that he doesn’t have a book.
I agree–it is odd that he doesn’t have a book.
is there an obligation/expectation for writers who’ve published in journals a lot to have a book out, or at least be in the process of putting one out?
is there an obligation/expectation for writers who’ve published in journals a lot to have a book out, or at least be in the process of putting one out?
He used my name? In the street?
Word did not get back to me. Let them know Appel step to any m********** — Withdrawer, Carpet-Bomber, whoever. My name is my name!
He used my name? In the street?
Word did not get back to me. Let them know Appel step to any m********** — Withdrawer, Carpet-Bomber, whoever. My name is my name!
Darby: There probably is, but that isn’t what I meant. I just don’t get what the fact that a guy without a book isn’t widely known would mean or say about anything? Like why is he “‘our’ most prolific writer”? Again, no disrespect at all to him.
Darby: There probably is, but that isn’t what I meant. I just don’t get what the fact that a guy without a book isn’t widely known would mean or say about anything? Like why is he “‘our’ most prolific writer”? Again, no disrespect at all to him.
I just know I hate his stories.
I just know I hate his stories.
ha ha, yeah i’ll have to read something by him this weekend and see what i think. wonder how many pieces he has online. i do think i read one of his pieces awhile back and thought it was okay. that was before i knew much about him. i remember seeing his bio and thinking wow quite a cv.
ha ha, yeah i’ll have to read something by him this weekend and see what i think. wonder how many pieces he has online. i do think i read one of his pieces awhile back and thought it was okay. that was before i knew much about him. i remember seeing his bio and thinking wow quite a cv.
HTMLGIANT, you delight always.
Anons, hmmm. I think this conversation just took place on 4chan. What if jacob appel is how troll editors troll editors trying to troll writers for hits?
What I like is the randomness of our numbers. 30. 12. 8. I range from 5 super-good sim-subs for my best work that I’ve had confirmed has merit (say, a super high ratio of letters back from places I’d kill to publish in), to some low two digit number (let’s say 11 just to give the odds a chance) for pieces I believe in that editors don’t feel inclined to salute. I do think that, with the exception of an extraordinarily fast turnaround like PANK or a few other online mags, you’ve got to go with a minimum of 4 or 5 if you’re going with low-percentage journals, or you’re not giving yourself a fighting chance. And there are no guarantees, sometimes even no logic to this process: I have this nonfiction piece go unplaced for three years that I think is easily the best thing I’ve ever written, and every editor and their mother has written me back to laud it and solicit more work. I’ve probably placed five or six lesser pieces as a result, in fact. Yet it’s now been rejected thirty or forty times, with a 50% personalized note ratio. Explain that to me…
HTMLGIANT, you delight always.
Anons, hmmm. I think this conversation just took place on 4chan. What if jacob appel is how troll editors troll editors trying to troll writers for hits?
What I like is the randomness of our numbers. 30. 12. 8. I range from 5 super-good sim-subs for my best work that I’ve had confirmed has merit (say, a super high ratio of letters back from places I’d kill to publish in), to some low two digit number (let’s say 11 just to give the odds a chance) for pieces I believe in that editors don’t feel inclined to salute. I do think that, with the exception of an extraordinarily fast turnaround like PANK or a few other online mags, you’ve got to go with a minimum of 4 or 5 if you’re going with low-percentage journals, or you’re not giving yourself a fighting chance. And there are no guarantees, sometimes even no logic to this process: I have this nonfiction piece go unplaced for three years that I think is easily the best thing I’ve ever written, and every editor and their mother has written me back to laud it and solicit more work. I’ve probably placed five or six lesser pieces as a result, in fact. Yet it’s now been rejected thirty or forty times, with a 50% personalized note ratio. Explain that to me…
Word. Namefags are the cancer that is killing /HTMLGIANT/.
Word. Namefags are the cancer that is killing /HTMLGIANT/.