Tags: course evaluation, Eminem, William Logan
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Meta
Did this turn out to be useful to you in any way? I mean, leaving aside its pretentious (“glints and glimmers”) and anti-constructive manner, did you end up finding anything of use in it?
i never learned anything from any evaluation
It’s kind of cool that this guy wasn’t afraid to tell you that some of your stuff was awful. The instructors I’ve had always sort of pulled their punches. I don’t mean to sound like I think I’m the arbiter of fine poetry or anything, but some of the poetry I’ve seen in undergrad workshop has been honestly pure shit. Even so, the instructors have insisted on finding even minor things to praise rather than just saying something isn’t good.
“Oh, this poem is a poem about time and how nobody has enough time for anything, even including lines about how you don’t have time to write poems for class? This poem is something you obviously wrote 5 minutes ago and printed out in the computer lab downstairs? Well, the rhythm is interesting.”
If an instructor doesn’t like something I’ve written at all, it doesn’t do me any good for them to lie. I mean, telling me they think something is awful doesn’t do me much good either, but at least it’s true.
also ‘chili-pepper scale’, gawd
Yeah, if you’re gonna go that route–and by no means am I suggesting you should–you gotta go all-out with the Scoville Units.
Agreed, Trey. Too many workshop instructors are scared to be honest, and students ultimately respect honest instructors, not instructors who give out compliments like free candy.
Hell-for-leather. One of the world’s great clichés. That he combines it with the “rein in your instincts” cliché is rather remarkable. As far as I have always observed, less is never more. Things are what they are. And for someone who doesn’t like long-windedness, this chap can ramble.
I’ve always felt that apart from the specific critiques and suggestions, what he really communicated was the depth of his attention, which is perhaps the most valuable thing you can give to any young writer. Is he kind of a dick? Yeah, sure. On the other hand, I was 20 (barely), and went into that class very impressed with myself and my own little idea of what poetry was, and what it could and should be—mostly long-stale ideas I pinched from Beat poets whose work I didn’t even like, but was pretending to like because their praxis was easier to imitate than anything that took actual effort. I have no idea if or to what degree he modulated his tone relative to the individual students he was addressing, but after a semester’s worth of classes, workshop sessions and general camaraderie with him, this stuff really didn’t sting the way you might imagine. What I mean is it wasn’t a blindside–it was true to form, and I think if he’d have been less frank I’d have felt short-changed. Besides which, there’s some damn good advice crammed into that paragraph, not least of which was that I desperately *did* need to learn how to edit. So anyway, this wasn’t like a life-changing piece of paper, and you better believe that at the time I was mostly pissed I didn’t get my A, but I have always thought there was something weirdly charming and interesting about it, which is why I’ve made a point of hanging onto it for all these years.
Why have I never heard “hell for leather?”
Go Gators. If it had been his wife you would have gotten an A.
It is mostly in older books. Old potboilers. It wen’t out of fashion when Roget’s gave up their old format for the PSI version.
Did this turn out to be useful to you in any way? I mean, leaving aside its pretentious (“glints and glimmers”) and anti-constructive manner, did you end up finding anything of use in it?
i never learned anything from any evaluation
It’s kind of cool that this guy wasn’t afraid to tell you that some of your stuff was awful. The instructors I’ve had always sort of pulled their punches. I don’t mean to sound like I think I’m the arbiter of fine poetry or anything, but some of the poetry I’ve seen in undergrad workshop has been honestly pure shit. Even so, the instructors have insisted on finding even minor things to praise rather than just saying something isn’t good.
“Oh, this poem is a poem about time and how nobody has enough time for anything, even including lines about how you don’t have time to write poems for class? This poem is something you obviously wrote 5 minutes ago and printed out in the computer lab downstairs? Well, the rhythm is interesting.”
If an instructor doesn’t like something I’ve written at all, it doesn’t do me any good for them to lie. I mean, telling me they think something is awful doesn’t do me much good either, but at least it’s true.
also ‘chili-pepper scale’, gawd
Yeah, if you’re gonna go that route–and by no means am I suggesting you should–you gotta go all-out with the Scoville Units.
Agreed, Trey. Too many workshop instructors are scared to be honest, and students ultimately respect honest instructors, not instructors who give out compliments like free candy.
Hell-for-leather. One of the world’s great clichés. That he combines it with the “rein in your instincts” cliché is rather remarkable. As far as I have always observed, less is never more. Things are what they are. And for someone who doesn’t like long-windedness, this chap can ramble.
I’ve always felt that apart from the specific critiques and suggestions, what he really communicated was the depth of his attention, which is perhaps the most valuable thing you can give to any young writer. Is he kind of a dick? Yeah, sure. On the other hand, I was 20 (barely), and went into that class very impressed with myself and my own little idea of what poetry was, and what it could and should be—mostly long-stale ideas I pinched from Beat poets whose work I didn’t even like, but was pretending to like because their praxis was easier to imitate than anything that took actual effort. I have no idea if or to what degree he modulated his tone relative to the individual students he was addressing, but after a semester’s worth of classes, workshop sessions and general camaraderie with him, this stuff really didn’t sting the way you might imagine. What I mean is it wasn’t a blindside–it was true to form, and I think if he’d have been less frank I’d have felt short-changed. Besides which, there’s some damn good advice crammed into that paragraph, not least of which was that I desperately *did* need to learn how to edit. So anyway, this wasn’t like a life-changing piece of paper, and you better believe that at the time I was mostly pissed I didn’t get my A, but I have always thought there was something weirdly charming and interesting about it, which is why I’ve made a point of hanging onto it for all these years.
Why have I never heard “hell for leather?”
I don’t know how great his advice is (seems lame to me, but I wasn’t in the class), but I don’t think it’s mean. And I kind of like the chili-pepper scale. I would maybe set the bar at 44 or so for an A, but maybe he gives out fours easily, I don’t know. I’d also have assignments other than poems.
Never??
Go Gators. If it had been his wife you would have gotten an A.
When will someone simply say that cliches are tools: a short way to say a long thing.
When will the cliche get elevated.
It was mostly likely passed on for 3 lifetimes because it was useful.
Can I get a pro-cliche shout-out?
Probably never.
So can I get a re-think cliche shout-out?
well…
that just makes me dick as a sog.
But if it’s a true cliche, you’re not actually saying the long thing, just the short one. When the metaphoric force gets pummeled out of a cliche, not only is it “bad” or not “beautiful,” but really it’s not useful, either. I mean, look at this critique. It is the least useful/instructive when it dips into cliche: the less is more platitude, the reins thing, the goofy hell/leather thing. The prof isn’t really telling justin anything specific about his -own- poetry when he says that stuff. But of course, it’s just personal correspondence, not a work of literary art, and in some sense cliches are nearly unavoidable in such stuff. . . .
Effective metaphors are the true way to say a long thing in a short way, I think.
Right. But cliches are like shrugs or eyebrow raising or eye-rolling or placing hands behind head and yawning–been done, we know that–but maybe trying to very clearly send a very clear message.
This is a teacher 2 student feedback.
He might use the cliches for ease, OK, but also it’s code. Here is what I am saying.
I mean what do A, B, C, D grades mean?
They are cliches.
But they’re not a code, they’re cop-out. Instead of “here is what I am saying,” it’s “here is what I maybe might have been saying, if I had taken the time to hash out my thoughts on the matter, but since I haven’t you’ll have to make do with Stock Phrase X.”
Letter grades are not cliches, and I don’t think comparing cliches to physical gestures really works. A physical gesture can become cliche once it’s transformed into language—”she rolled her eyes”—but actually rolling your eyes at someone will always carry some kind of emotional import.
It is mostly in older books. Old potboilers. It wen’t out of fashion when Roget’s gave up their old format for the PSI version.
A teacher though should be setting a student a good example, especially while criticising her/him. And this guy used 3 clichés in a paragraph. And he is a writing teacher. Showing young people how it should be done. Setting them on the path. And not once in the criticism did he actually give a specific example of what he is talking about. Just calling something awful and comparing it to a popular rap artist is not good enough. Cliché I think is fine if you are talking about clichéd situations (i.e. the fireplace glowed). But actual clichés of speech are just not that great. Sometimes we use them for expediency or in first person dialogue, and this is pardonable. But overall, I think our society has become so enveloped in them that it has really hampered original ways of thinking. Because we write how we think. And writers/artists should accustom their minds to see things in ways other people don’t. Otherwise why bother? Because just spitting out pasted together clichés or painting a picture like some guy 100 years but without the skill is probably not giving much beauty/wisdom/love back to the universe.
Maybe I’m missing something, but this reads like an end-of-year evaluation, not an evaluation of a packet of poems up for a “regular” workshop, like a final portfolio; his comments are probably in conversation with more thorough workshop feedback given throughout the semester.
So, why should he have to discuss a specific examples already covered earlier in the semester? Is that really the purpose of a final, end-of-year note? Many teachers don’t write anything in response to a final portfolio, nor are they really expected to with 48-72 hour turnaround.
Whenever someone brings up his experiences with a teacher–good or bad–look for everyone else in the room to use it as an opportunity to vent in response to their own bad experiences. Blood in the water.
*to discuss specific examples
**with a 48-72 turnaround
MFBomb. I have never had any bad experiences. The only creative writing course I took was in Junior Highschool and the teacher was very kind and certainly never called anything any student did “awful”. Since Justin posted this in a public forum, I assume he was open to the lot of us saying what we like about it.
Personally, I don’t believe that “creative writing” can be taught. But that is just me.
Actually, I think that seems like it could be a very helpful critique. Still, I might have cried had I gotten it myself.
I don’t know how great his advice is (seems lame to me, but I wasn’t in the class), but I don’t think it’s mean. And I kind of like the chili-pepper scale. I would maybe set the bar at 44 or so for an A, but maybe he gives out fours easily, I don’t know. I’d also have assignments other than poems.
Never??
When will someone simply say that cliches are tools: a short way to say a long thing.
When will the cliche get elevated.
It was mostly likely passed on for 3 lifetimes because it was useful.
Can I get a pro-cliche shout-out?
Probably never.
So can I get a re-think cliche shout-out?
well…
that just makes me dick as a sog.
Gotcha, Brendan, but I think it’s important to understand the purpose of this note, which appears to have been written as a final note, rather than feedback for a workshop during the semester. Big difference.
But if it’s a true cliche, you’re not actually saying the long thing, just the short one. When the metaphoric force gets pummeled out of a cliche, not only is it “bad” or not “beautiful,” but really it’s not useful, either. I mean, look at this critique. It is the least useful/instructive when it dips into cliche: the less is more platitude, the reins thing, the goofy hell/leather thing. The prof isn’t really telling justin anything specific about his -own- poetry when he says that stuff. But of course, it’s just personal correspondence, not a work of literary art, and in some sense cliches are nearly unavoidable in such stuff. . . .
Effective metaphors are the true way to say a long thing in a short way, I think.
Right. But cliches are like shrugs or eyebrow raising or eye-rolling or placing hands behind head and yawning–been done, we know that–but maybe trying to very clearly send a very clear message.
This is a teacher 2 student feedback.
He might use the cliches for ease, OK, but also it’s code. Here is what I am saying.
I mean what do A, B, C, D grades mean?
They are cliches.
But they’re not a code, they’re cop-out. Instead of “here is what I am saying,” it’s “here is what I maybe might have been saying, if I had taken the time to hash out my thoughts on the matter, but since I haven’t you’ll have to make do with Stock Phrase X.”
Letter grades are not cliches, and I don’t think comparing cliches to physical gestures really works. A physical gesture can become cliche once it’s transformed into language—”she rolled her eyes”—but actually rolling your eyes at someone will always carry some kind of emotional import.
A teacher though should be setting a student a good example, especially while criticising her/him. And this guy used 3 clichés in a paragraph. And he is a writing teacher. Showing young people how it should be done. Setting them on the path. And not once in the criticism did he actually give a specific example of what he is talking about. Just calling something awful and comparing it to a popular rap artist is not good enough. Cliché I think is fine if you are talking about clichéd situations (i.e. the fireplace glowed). But actual clichés of speech are just not that great. Sometimes we use them for expediency or in first person dialogue, and this is pardonable. But overall, I think our society has become so enveloped in them that it has really hampered original ways of thinking. Because we write how we think. And writers/artists should accustom their minds to see things in ways other people don’t. Otherwise why bother? Because just spitting out pasted together clichés or painting a picture like some guy 100 years but without the skill is probably not giving much beauty/wisdom/love back to the universe.
Maybe I’m missing something, but this reads like an end-of-year evaluation, not an evaluation of a packet of poems up for a “regular” workshop, like a final portfolio; his comments are probably in conversation with more thorough workshop feedback given throughout the semester.
So, why should he have to discuss a specific examples already covered earlier in the semester? Is that really the purpose of a final, end-of-year note? Many teachers don’t write anything in response to a final portfolio, nor are they really expected to with 48-72 hour turnaround.
Whenever someone brings up his experiences with a teacher–good or bad–look for everyone else in the room to use it as an opportunity to vent in response to their own bad experiences. Blood in the water.
*to discuss specific examples
**with a 48-72 turnaround
MFBomb. I have never had any bad experiences. The only creative writing course I took was in Junior Highschool and the teacher was very kind and certainly never called anything any student did “awful”. Since Justin posted this in a public forum, I assume he was open to the lot of us saying what we like about it.
Personally, I don’t believe that “creative writing” can be taught. But that is just me.
Actually, I think that seems like it could be a very helpful critique. Still, I might have cried had I gotten it myself.
Gotcha, Brendan, but I think it’s important to understand the purpose of this note, which appears to have been written as a final note, rather than feedback for a workshop during the semester. Big difference.
Yes, absolutely, have at the thing, on any terms you choose- but MFBomb is correct that it’s an end of the semester evaluation. In the original form, it came accompanied with a full packet of poems of mine, which I had written throughout the semester, revised, and re-turned in for the final portfolio. I’m sure all those poems were commented on and edited individually, which may explain why they’re discussed in such broad strokes here, but I don’t have all that stuff anymore, and even if I did I don’t think I would have posted it. I just like this thing a lot.
Yes, absolutely, have at the thing, on any terms you choose- but MFBomb is correct that it’s an end of the semester evaluation. In the original form, it came accompanied with a full packet of poems of mine, which I had written throughout the semester, revised, and re-turned in for the final portfolio. I’m sure all those poems were commented on and edited individually, which may explain why they’re discussed in such broad strokes here, but I don’t have all that stuff anymore, and even if I did I don’t think I would have posted it. I just like this thing a lot.
… “like bad Eminem” is a pretty awesome description.
… “like bad Eminem” is a pretty awesome description.
Most contemporary poetry is a pro-cliche shout out.
If you can’t use a cliche when evaluating student/amateur writing, when can you use it?
Right? As opposed to good Eminem?
Most contemporary poetry is a pro-cliche shout out.
If you can’t use a cliche when evaluating student/amateur writing, when can you use it?
Right? As opposed to good Eminem?